Drama Queens - AIM for the stars!! • EP213

Episode Date: March 7, 2022

The Drama Queens are bringing back the ultimate blast from the past. You guessed it…AIM! We’re digging deep into the endless rules of AOL Instant Messenger. Should Haley have been AIMing it up with Chris Keller? Plus, what has Hilarie been hiding in a shoe box for all these years?Then, we all know that an OTH without Haley would have been…well…Joyless. Find out why Joy thought she was getting written off the show at this point in the series.As always, style is in full swing this episode from powder blue jeans and pointy toed boots, to skinny brows and flat-ironed flips. Trendy or tragic?? Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl, cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion with your tough girl, you could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Hey guys, welcome to episode 13. The Hero dies in this one.

The air date February 8th, 2005. If you know what this sound is, that's what's happening. It sounds like you're peeing. It could be that. It will be that eventually. It's not. It's the sound of me pouring wine,

and Hillary's doing the same thing. And Sophia just finished eating a giant lamp. Oh, that's a glug, glug. Oh, nice. Glug, glug, glug. Okay, somebody read the synopsis. What the hell happened in this episode? Go, Sophia.

This was a real big one. A personal fave because Brooke plans her presidential campaign. And we meet Erica Marsh, her rival. Jake returns to school. Dan makes an offer to Lucas that he is obligated to fulfill while he keeps his health secrets from Karen, done, done. And Nathan gives Haley an ultimatum after she gets the opportunity of a lifetime to go on tour with Chris Keller and The Wreckers.

Ooh. This one made me feel very emotional. Me too. We were, I couldn't believe how much they packed it, how much emotion they packed into it. And honestly, the first like 20 minutes, I was kind of like, this kind of, this got not much happening in this episode. Like, I don't really know what's going. I don't, do I care?

And then, and then everything just really snowballed big time. We lost Hillary. Yeah. wait. Guys, listen, living in the middle of nowhere, internet's a problem. So if you're voting in local elections, vote for rural broadband. Thank you. I love it. Well, speaking of elections, let's kick off with Brooke. Yeah. Let's get there. Let's talk about it. I love Brooke with all her projects in this sort of season of her life with the Crab Shack and running for president. It's like we're really starting to begin to see the buds of Brooke's entrepreneurial

explosion that's coming later and well we're seeing sophia in brook do you know what i mean it's like like you brought the music in i brought i don't know the grumpiness in and sophia brought the advocacy and like running for office into brook it's nice when they see what we get excited about and then they i know filter it in i really loved it i loved becoming a union organizer i loved becoming a union organizer and then deciding to run for local office i was like this feels right i think it It was great. It was really fun. We got to meet Catherine Bayliss, who becomes much more of a part of our show later. And I just loved seeing her because I wasn't in any of those scenes. And I don't know that I ever saw this episode. So it was really fun for me to see her work. You hadn't seen that? Isn't she so great? Yeah. Yeah. She was such a riot. We had such a good time doing this stuff. And there was just something I loved not only about, you know, an understandable rivalry between two girls competing over something. And, you know, and for this character of Erica Marsh, the girl who's like, no, this is my thing. This is what I do.

Yeah. But one of the things that I loved about it is that rather than turning on some shame spiral for Brooke, she gets encouraged to just embrace who she is. And then she goes so far in that direction. And I was like, man, I wish, like, anybody taught women that when we were young to be like, Yeah, you made some mistakes. Doesn't everybody get over it? You're awesome. I know.

This is something I definitely am trying to instill with my daughter and my philosophy in parenting is obviously I'm not just trying to be a train wreck. But if I make mistakes or if I, you know, mistakes that I have made in the past come up, I'm happy to talk about it within a framework of what she can understand for her age. But I think it's actually really important because my parents, didn't do that. I think a lot of parents don't do that. They're kind of afraid to, that their kids are going to, I don't know, see them as less than the ideal leader and maybe take after them in some way or respect them less. I don't know, but I got to say, I've had

really good luck with this because my kids turned out to be somebody that makes really smart decisions. And I think a lot of it's that the people around her aren't afraid to just be who they are. And I love seeing Brooke be who she is like this. I love it too. And it and it's interesting now to look back on that as an adult and to go, wow, we didn't grow up in an era where people said embrace your flaws, embrace your wins. Everything you've ever done has made you who you are. And I wonder if part of that too, you know, there's these moments, right, in our evolution as a society. Like parents now have more information about, you know, support and psychology and all the things than our parents had. And then I think about how my parents also had being immigrants, growing up the children of immigrants,

where there was such a striving to prove that you earned being here, that you meant, that you deserved to be in America. Yeah. And, you know, you had to be perfect and you had to succeed. and perfectionism is like a slow killer. But I love knowing where it came from for them, even if, you know. Even if we push against it. Yes, even if I've been like, I can't possibly do it, I can't.

I really liked what Brooke said there about like, oh, you're talking to us little people. You know, I think a lot of politics gets gross when there's elitism involved and living in small towns, like our mayor walks down the street, you know, that's how it was in Wilmington, too. Like, we were all friends with the mayor and still are, you know. There's an accessibility that is very, very important.

And I think that Brooke brings that to the table. And I loved the pissing match between you and Erica March. Like, very rarely does Brooke Davis meet someone that's going to, like, outsnide her. And so that, like, one-upmanship in that scene, It's so tight and you guys are just like spot on with each other. I love that for them, it's a battle over politics. It's a battle of intellect. It's a battle of wits.

It's so refreshing that we got to step out of that, you know, male gaze kind of vertical that the writers loved to put us in and do other cool things. I just thought that it was so much fun. And I loved shooting those campaign posters. Oh my gosh. Wait, do you have those? Do you have any of them? I definitely have one of them. I don't know if I have a set. I really wish I did. That's what you need to like plaster your house in. I'm sure your fiancee would love that. If there's just like a whole room dedicated to Brooke Davis campaign. Yeah, just pictures of me and crop tops passed out over kegs with solo cups. But by the way, Brooke's a good time. That's approachable. What if we made buttons? Let's make some vote for Brooke. Brook for president. I do have a button. I still have a button. need more buttons to sell.

Yeah, well, we need buttons. I agree. I was just looking at the episode, like, Lucas has a different button than the one Felix has. And I was like, wait a minute, where are all of those buttons? There were multiples. Nobody threw those out. They're somewhere. Somebody's got a box of them and I want them. Hillary called it.

She said, you look like, you look like Daphne. You look like your mom, Victoria in the trench coat. Especially in the trench coat. The trench coat. And you've got the like bang that Daphne would wear on the show. You've got that hair. Like that adult bang. Oh, I loved it.

Like Lu Xinyon that you're like, I have to pull my hair out of this dumb bun. Yeah, you look like Daphne. And this was years before we cast Daphne. Yeah. And it's just beautiful foreshadowing. You knew what you wanted in a mother. Man. I was, I was manifesting her.

Did you do that in high school? Oh, yeah. High school, college. I had all sorts of that stuff going. It's like I was the philanthropy chair. every year in college. Oh, my God, yes, you were. Yeah.

The philanthropy chair. Did you have to run a campaign ever like this? Yeah. Yeah, I remember, God, it's so weird. School just all sort of blends together for me. But I do remember, I don't know if it was middle school or early high school, a campaign season. And I remember, you know, my friend Betsy, we used to do plays together. and she's still one of the girls that I'm really tight with from high school.

And we just did everything together. And I remember, like, being at home after school and cutting out things for our posters. So cute. So excited. Yeah. It was so fun to, you know, start to formulate these ideas of how to talk about what you cared about. Yeah. I loved it.

Student government's great. I mean, I obviously still love it. It stuck with you, huh? Really made me. I ran for vice president in the fifth grade. Oh, how'd that go? And I had to make posters and I had to come up with a presentation that was that was presented before the entire elementary school. This is when I was in Texas.

So we had a auditorium, which was also our cafeteria. And then they would turn, they would turn the chairs and tables. I have such a soft spot for that. I love it. A multi-purpose room. That's what they call it now on HGTV. Oh, man. Oh, yeah.

And so I decided being the performer that I was, that I would create a real, it wasn't just a speech. What I did was. Was it a song? I sang a song. I sang a song and I did a dance. So I had a hat rack and I had all these different hats on the hat rack. And on the hats, there's got to be tape of this somewhere. On the hats, each hat, hat,

like a sign on it, you know, a trash cleanup and, you know, less homework and all these little things that I was going to be fighting for. And I, there's a song by Amy Grant in the late 90s called hats. Why do I have to wear so many hats on my head or whatever. Hillary's crying. You are killing me. Amy, you didn't even go with baby, baby. One of the big hits. You went with an obscure B-side song. Not one of the hits.

God. Oh, joy. Yeah. You know, I keep going. Under-underestimated how excited everyone or overestimated how excited everyone would be about. Oh, my God. This song that no one knows. So I did my dance and I had my bowler hat and I had my, like, leotard and just did the whole thing.

And, you know. You know. Or leantar. Oh, guys. I was hopeless. I really was... I love this. Oh, I have to take this sweater off.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That's so painful. I did not win. Oh, honey. But I had fun. Then I still remember. I mean, if anyone in New Jersey has tape of this.

Please. This is New Jersey or Texas? This was Meadow Creek Elementary School in Bedford, Texas. Ooh. My birthday's coming up, as is so. Please. Please. you know what we want god joy i'm sweating for you yeah it was it was stressful but you know

hey you got to take the risk if if nothing else and just like just like haley i took the risk you know sure did i jumped out there and i just said screw it i'm just going to go for it so why not it didn't didn't work out so well for haley either apparently speaking of haley let's talk about it those chris keller aim conversations there were so many of them the printouts the fact that nathan printed out aim chats don't act like you didn't do it i did it what an era it's so specific yeah yeah in the timeline of human history printing out an aim chat yeah if a cute dude talked to you in the night before you had to print it out so you could prove it to your friends and be like oh my god i can't believe this dude was like

talking to me last night and look what he said and what does that mean and blah blah or if you got to fight with somebody even better and you can be like and then I said this and there's proof you know I still as a grown ass woman with gray hair have printed out aim conversations in a shoebox in my act you better Hillary where are they of course I do Jimmy Kane and I loved each other as friends and we had a big falling out that ended up in us like actually like making up and then like making out at the end of senior year. And I took that very seriously because we've been friends since we were like 11.

And I printed all of that out for me to remember forever. So Jimmy, wherever you are. Yeah, those are important. Aim notes for dangerous though, because you never knew who was going to see them. Yeah, that's true. We didn't do that. What?

You didn't? I don't know. I never printed. In this moment, I'm experiencing deep regret. I wish I could go back and flip through. No, I don't know. I don't know if it's because I went to an all-girls school like that. We weren't doing that.

It's not that we weren't on aim, but we weren't like bringing them in to be like, look at this. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe we were just assholes. Maybe we were like. I feel robbed. I feel like I got too.

You guys had discretion. I don't know. I think we were just lame. It might have been at discretion. I think I just was boringly bookish or something. But you never got in trouble for an AIM conversation. No one ever was like, oh, man, I heard you said that on AIM. No.

No. Hmm. Well, the East Coast kids were getting into all sorts of crap. I did a lot more passing notes than I did AIM. And we always call it AIM. I never heard it as AIM. Sounds like a DARE project or something. Like, don't do drugs.

Yeah, just DARE. Aim. We did a lot of passing notes. notes i have boxes full still have notes but we digress the chris keller notes were salacious yeah they were but haley didn't write them that was all taylor she wrote some in the beginning it looked like they were all pretty much from chris though we're like i want to kiss you and i miss you on tour like i didn't see a lot of haley responses so much as i saw chris like yeah aggressive yeah that's right It was wild to watch that because I remember shooting that stuff, not a lot of details,

but I just remember what a big deal that storyline was because Nathan and Haley were the golden couple, and it was very exciting. And it was a big deal in pop culture at the time, Nathan and Haley, having gotten married. So to see the breakup and knowing that they were actually sending us on tour around the country, and not knowing what was going to happen with the show and kind of knowing that they were trying to see if they could write me off the show and if the show would still like be okay without me.

Joy, did you feel that way? Oh, I knew that's exactly what was going on. But why? Because I wasn't always super compliant. Like I had ideas about the scenes. I had ideas about my character. I spoke up a lot. And for a 21-year-old in that environment,

I think the people that were around, like you guys have said before, I was in this business for a long time as a, you know, I started professionally when I was 12 here. So I had built up a long experience on sets of being, having all my ideas welcomed and really being heard and listened to. And even as a kid, like, respected. You're here for a reason. You're bringing something to the table. How do you feel about this? Do you want to stand over there? Where do you want to be? And so I brought that mentality into my work on One Tree Hill expecting that that's this, I was going to be greeted with the same openness and I wasn't. But instead of laying down and being like, oh, I guess that's not what I do here, I was like, oh, screw these guys. Like, no, this is what I do here. I have ideas. And it's not that I was always right.

You know, I wasn't always right. But then it's like, I don't know who I can trust. So then I would double down sometimes because I was like, well, I don't trust anybody. So I have to trust myself. And then if I'm wrong, I didn't trust the people that were telling me I was wrong. It was, anyway, sorry, long story long, as Sophia would say. That's a lot of what was going through my mind as I got on that bus and headed out because I knew, as I was leaving, like, they were trying to figure out if they can do this without me, without Haley on the show, if they can, like, get me out. I hate that.

Yeah. But I still got to go on tour, which was amazing. Well, so here's my question, though, something that in all these years I've never, ever thought about. You know, I know the fan base was really excited to see you on tour. Yeah. But did anyone give you shit about leaving Nathan? Was anybody like yelling from the crowd like, you shouldn't have left Nathan? Totally.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And back to me. Because I guess I just never put it in context. I don't think people really believed it. It's all a suspension. But there definitely were people like, go back to Nathan. Get back together with Nathan.

Like, Chris is bad news. shouting from the audience. It was fun. But it was all in jest and good fun. You know, it got good laughs and stuff like that. Yeah. But it was fun.

We had a blast. How long were you guys out? How many dates did you guys do? I think we did 30 cities. Wow. It was a lot. It was a big tour. We were gone for like three months,

two or three months. Yeah. It was a long time. Yeah. And then I can't quite remember because I feel like you'd go and then you'd come back and shoot and then you'd go and you'd come back.

Like, the real time of the tour took longer than how long Haley was away on the show. You're right. But that's because of the way it was airing. Yeah. Right? So we were shooting a way ahead of where what was airing is happening. So, yeah, it was just timing out that way. But it was so sad to see Haley and Nathan have this big fight.

And then, you know, she's. And as you said, when we were watching it, Hill, ultimatums never worked. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner

in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, let's go back a little bit,

because I loved that we got to be kind of confidants in this episode. And I loved kind of that gentle conversation, because it's really easy to vilify someone, if they're doing something that you don't like. Yeah. You know? And I like the rapport that Peyton and Haley have together. Where it's like, listen, I'm not going to say anything, but this is kind of fucked up,

like, what are we going to do about this? That's what it feels like, what are we going to do about this? Yeah. And you played at Hill in a way when you approached her in the hallway. You came to her like, hey, are you okay? Not like, hey, what did you do? And I remember even watching the episode saying that it was so beautiful

the way you played that last line A kiss always means something. You said it not as judgment. You said it as almost an offering. Like, hey, don't kid yourself. I see you. Like, I'm here. And it was generous.

Yeah. Well, look, Peyton did it. Peyton did it with Lucas, you know, so no one's allowed. to be perfect. We had a good director on this episode. Let's lay that out for everybody. Kevin Dowling is one of the loveliest male directors I've ever worked with.

I got to work with him on white collar after this and extant after this. And he's a reoccurring director on The Walking Dead who randomly, my husband came home and was like, there's this director I really love. And I'm like, who are you talking about? And he's like, this guy, Kevin Dowling. And I'm like, I know him. And so he has been on every show. And I think a lot of the scenes, we talked about how great Chad was in his scene with Moira,

where he's like, I want to move in with Dan. And his face is saying one thing and his mouth is saying another. And Kevin was just a really lovely actor's director. It's so obvious when we have those on this show. You're right. He was so perfect for this episode because that's one thing that really struck me.

at the end was that there's again and we've talked about this there's no high genre thing there's no nobody's a vampire no one no one's been murdered this is just emotional drama but we all experience we all feel it and the fact that they have built us up through that throughout this time with these characters so that something as simple as a teenage boy's wife wanting to go on tour and pursue something else could, you know, just break your heart and create that kind of drama. He's throwing the keyboard across the wall. But that is, we needed a director who really understood the subtlety of human emotion. And so much of that that could have been the opposite of subtle. Kevin shepherded in such a beautiful direction. Like even that scene with Nathan picking up

the keyboard, it, it wasn't rage. He looked heartbroken. Yeah. Yeah. And then he just did something. And then he looked heartbroken again. He wasn't like ripping up the apartment and screaming, you know, and even that, the way he reacted to Chris in the dressing room when Chris said the thing to him about, yes, she loves you, but what if it's not enough? Oh my God. Yes. That one, hold on. We all wrote that one down. We all wrote it down. And instead of hitting him, James just looked like he'd been shot through the heart. Like, he, he, he encouraged everyone to be. Jake and you, too.

Raw. Because that's something else that's, that's that there's a tenderness there that could have been turned into something that felt sexual, but it, it wasn't. I mean, the sexual tension was always there. But that moment of him taking off his shirt in the, in the light and looking at you and Jenny in the crib, yes, it was very sexy, but it was also deeply emotional. just that moment and just the fact that he took his time

and that you were just looking and Jenny starts crying and he's like, go back to sleep. Not a word is said. Exactly. It's just feelings pouring out of both of you and the director gave it time. Space and time, yeah.

Love that. Yeah, he's a really good director. We kind of, we love Kevin Downwind. What a prince. I really like it when we call out our directors because for the fans out there, we always text them and let them know that we've been raving about them.

And it's so fun to hear back from them because you know it's been almost 20 years since we've worked with a lot of these people what are you going to say so i was gonna call you speaking of um and then getting out of the airport on sunday was halacious guess who was on my plane on sunday stacy rukizer shut up and she and i was like i don't know if anyone sent it to you but you know we all because we were talking and she was like i'm just so proud of you girls i love what you're doing and i said well i don't know if anybody sent you the episode she said oh so many people sent it to me you guys were too cute. And we were just like, we love you. We're so happy for you. She's so cool. We got

favorites. We got lots of favorites. No, I was just going to add in, though, he'll, because you were saying, you made a joke earlier that what did you say? Sophia's being Sophia, right? Sophia's bringing in the entrepreneurial and you said, oh, I brought in the grumpy and then Haley was something else. But you know what? The truth is actually in this episode, what Payton did with Haley in the hallway is very you. That's the kind of friend that you are. And I, you know, we experience it all the time because, look, it's not always easy having a friendship with anybody. Look, if your friendship is easy all the time, you're not very good friends. Right, you don't tell each other hard things. That's true. That's true. And, you know, like, I just think that's really

true about you that even when you have something hard to say, there's always love around it. I always feel love around it with you. Hey, thank you. I agree with that. That's true. You made me cry. Do I have a drinking wine? Why are you doing this? And you know what? I have a cold. I just, I desire to push you over the edge. So let's keep going with this topic. Fuck you guys. You're going to have to take off your next layer, Hillary. Well, I'm sweating here.

So there's nothing underneath. I'm going to turn into Britney Spears right now. Hey, one of the things, too, that you have always been so good at as our friend is you hold people to high standards. But you do so because you tell the people around you that you see them that way. you expect people to be the best versions of themselves because you see the best versions of who they are and it's it's a very it's a very generous thing to be on the receiving end of and to joy's point about friendships it's an incredible thing to be part of friendships that do that's true i love i'd take a bullet for you guys same way well you know who wouldn't take a bullet for anybody

is Dan Scott. Hey, Joy, you are killing it with the segways this episode. I mean, you are rapid fire.

I fucking love it. Dan Scott, what a chump. What a bastard. Well, Paul got a haircut in this episode. He looked great.

He looks great. We all noticed. Paul just told me, he just texted me and he said his son told somebody randomly in the park. My dad used to be

handsome, but he's not anymore. it's so vicious which is not true at all of course it's not true Paul is dashing i think he looks great right now but i also have a silver fox thing so it's funny because you know he and i still go out all the time and we went out to dinner the other night it's funny to be at a restaurant and watch paul walk in and see all the women in the restaurant still just turn no matter who they're with no matter how old they are they're still just like uh-huh uh-huh whoever they're talking to, like, just getting a sec to process this for a second. When my daughter was like, I don't know, two months old maybe, Paul was doing a movie here in New York

and was like, hey, let's meet at this cafe in Woodstock. And I was like, yeah, buddy, all right, cool. I show up with my brand new baby and Paul takes her immediately and will not give her back. And he's just like, you know, she's fussing and he's just with his big body and his big strong arms like making her feel comfortable and she's all happy. And every woman in the restaurant, pregnant like they were all just like who is this yeah he knows what he's doing so true do you know what i showed her soap to my maria my daughter showed her soap dish the other night oh how is that age appropriate friends um well we didn't watch the whole movie i just showed her paul in soap just said do you want to see uncle paul when he was younger and um she's like sure so um if friends if you haven't seen

soap dish first of all it's a spectacular movie it's really funny but you get to see paul when he was like, what do you think? 23? 24. He was a baby. And he gets out of, he's in the, he's in the whole movie, but in the beginning, you'll only have to go like three minutes in. And Sally Field gets out of a limo and Paul's her date as they walk this red carpet. It's a soap opera movie.

And you can just see how tall and he looks exactly like his son. And it's really amazing. Maria was just like, what? That's Uncle Paul. Whoa. Wow. Uncle Paul. Has she seen him be a bad guy in our?

show yet? No, not at all. Yeah, that's going to mess her up. That's going to be weird. That's going to be weird for her. Yeah. Well, we'll have to get there. But this whole dastardly thing of him wanting Lucas to move in with him, I still am having trouble wrapping my head around it. The deal is he won't tell Karen about the heart test if Lucas doesn't tell everyone about. No. But how did Dan find out about the heart test. It's, it's, it's,

it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, who Jules really is to Keith.

Okay. If Lucas will come and live with him. And, and, and Lucas loves Keith more than anyone.

Come in. So then the HCM thing because, I'm glad someone was paying attention. Yeah, missed it, man.

Right on my head. Because, because Dan has it. And I think, wasn't he the one who like, oh no it was keith who made lucas get the test um so i don't know i don't know when it is exactly that lucas told dan he had it maybe because he i guess they were already in cahoots about jewels

so he said well if you you you know you got to pay for my medication yeah yeah that feels like it tracks right yeah okay but he's going to live with him because he doesn't want keith to get hurt man that's a lot of codependence wow it's a lot of pressure for kid yeah yeah it played it really well though in that scene with moira yeah it's hard to have your face do one thing and say different words that's a hard thing to do and his face is saying like mommy i'm dying mommy i'm dying mommy i'm dying i'm scared i'm fine i'm gonna go live with dan this is what i want yeah it may look different but native culture is very alive my name is Nicole garcia and on Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture.

It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories,

such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I love that Karen knows her son so well.

that she's like, what is he, what is he manipulating you with? She knows. She knows. Although I did not like her confessing. Girl. Okay. Get in there. Lay it out.

Come on. That trick. It's selfish. And then that great shot that racks around and you see Andy watching. Oh, let's talk about that, though. Let's like not glance over that. Yeah, yeah. Have you ever had someone say, I am.

in love with you and you have to be like oh that's so cute thanks but no thanks yeah yes we all know the rules are you can never tell them if you change your mind no especially when they're with someone else when they're with someone else it's so selfish because it's like well when when you thought they'd always be around you didn't want them and now that somebody else looks at them like they hung the moon, you think you miss out? Well, what's worse about this is that Karen didn't change her mind. She's not saying, hey, I actually am in love with you. I'm sorry, I'm a total idiot, but come back to me, which would be a big deal. But no, she's saying, I actually still don't want you. I'm just jealous that this other girl gets all your time and I don't get the time that I wanted with you.

But it's like playing on this piece of his emotion. He's just so tender-hearted. It's a carrot that's being dangled like I'm thinking about it but you know what's interesting and I I agree with you I'm just going to say but but you saying that made me think of something I didn't think of when we watched the episode because I remember when we watched it you were like why is she doing this I could buy it if like she'd gotten drunk and then got vulnerable that's what you said yeah yeah that's what she said but I wonder if maybe because she's saying I'm jealous I miss my friend. Is that why she's saying it's sober?

Because it's not. She used the wrong words. If you're saying like, buddy, man, I miss hanging out with you. That other girl, she's lucky. Like, there's a way to phrase it that is super platonic and it puts that wall up. Like, all of us girls know how to do that. Yeah. So if you are making the decision not to do that and you're using language like, I'm

jealous of jewels and all this time, you were. my person and that was a gnarly bomb to drop yeah you're right because she because she unwound it she started with i'm jealous of jewels and then she unwound it to it's really just because i'm you know i don't actually want you as my partner i just miss having you around i miss my friend too you see his face you see his face trying to like weigh it like what's she really saying am i missing a cue right now should i kiss her right now should i not kiss her right now like what do i fucking do and Now there's a way to handle that. Thankfully, it was good to see her go to Andy at the end and lose her shit because I certainly have been in situations in my life where something bad has happened and I have been surprised at what my gut reaction is, like, who to call, right? Yeah. Where it's like, oh, that's the person I need to be with right the fuck now. Yeah. You know? And so it is prompt.

promising that in her moment of like absolute despair, it's not Keith, she calls. Yes. It is Andy. So she may be confused. That's a totally rational thing for her to feel. We're not vilifying Karen. But in the end, you know, her picking Andy. Yeah. I mean, I've certainly had those moments where I'm like, oh, God, I really just called so-and-so. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Okay. No, I think you're right. Because it would have been okay for her to call Keith. That's the person she should have called if she loved him. Considering it's Lucas and I think Jules would have been

understanding of that situation like this is a big deal because it's about Lucas and they've always sort of done these things together so yeah I appreciate that she also I also appreciate that she went to Andy. It felt like a nice surprise and I realize

rehashing it that what I put on it as a viewer was oh Karen is struggling with things changing with Lucas, and she's always been supported with Lucas by Keith. But when push really comes to shove, she wants Andy to hold her. And I feel like they gave that beautiful shot to Kieran wrapping around his face while he wrapped her up in an embrace because the subtext for him was, oh, she did pick me. Yes. Yeah. You know, oh, I can't really take that personally. This is, this is

big and she did pick me. Yeah. Yeah. I also love for Kieran that he had two scenes this episode. Zero lines. He got to just party in Wilmington for two weeks. Good for him. We know. In the cafe. We did have lines in the cafe that great scene. He was like, it's chilly in here. What do you want to talk about the weather or drink your coffee? I loved that. Oh, Kieran. Good for you, dude. Okay. Another confession, though, the big. Confession of the episode besides Haley confessing that she kissed Chris, which I still never understood when she didn't go, he kissed me. I just, I know. We're going to talk about this. Okay, but anyway, the other one is Mouth, who also came in at this great moment. Like, I forgot that the writers were holding on to that. I, I, I, yeah, because they held onto it forever. I know. It was the perfect timing to just keep heightening. As a, you know, with a writer's brain on, my writer's hat on. I'm like, man, this is such perfect timing to add that in. It was great. Yeah. And Lee played that scene so beautifully. And one of the things I loved, because, you know, I didn't remember how that was going to go.

But when he walked in, he's really got his heart on his sleeve. He has to say the most vulnerable thing. Yeah. And I loved watching us together because I was surprised even by my reaction, which wasn't to get mad. And it was to just be so hurt that the person who I trusted to tell me the truth also lied to me. That was a great choice, Sophia. You were mom disappointed. It was hard.

It was like a heartbreak. It was that kind of heartbreak that comes from the betrayal of a friend. And I was surprised by it. You had already had it out with him after the prom or the dance or whatever that was. Yeah. So it seemed like. we're not going to do this like let's not do that again

let's just be really honest now there's no time for anger because anger's always covering up hurt let's just be honest that was hard there's similar energy there between you and mouth and Karen and Keith

because it's the friend's own energy it's the reliable energy but also when it's taken away it feels like the rugs being pulled out from under you And Keith has the most beautiful line in this, which is the subtext of Mouth seen with you, is I'm glad I loved you all those years. Like, you and Mouth get there, you know, doesn't he end up marrying Millie, your assistant? You know what I mean?

It's like, it's like loving you was a safe place for me because then when the right person came along, I was good for it. Yeah. That is so true. I mean, I think we've all had that in our lives. I've had someone that I loved for a long time that if I didn't love that person, I probably would have gotten caught up with a lot of the wrong kind of guys and a lot of bad situations. But I was, you know, young and just like so in love and sure that I was just willing to fight for it and wait and wait and stick around. And then you realize, oh, wait, actually, this is not the right thing at all. This was a good bookmark. But great bookmark. Yes. That's how I view my years at TRL. Like, how many bad musicians would I have kissed if I didn't have that one boyfriend all that time?

Oh, yeah. Listen, I'm glad that we had this bookmark. But Keith is so earnest about it. And that same love, I mean, you can feel it from mouth. Because he's also heartbroken when he says, I don't think I can be friends with you either, you know? boys stop making it hard so sweet and and i kind of loved that this moment of the friendship heartbreak happening against the backdrop of the speech you know yeah to take it back to the beginning work is finding her inspiration she's she's being told that she is courageous that she is

deserving of being a whole person and of embracing herself and telling her truth and being proud. It's why she says that iconic line, I am who I am, no excuses. It is, baby, put it on a t-shirt. Like, I want it on a shirt and a dad hat and on everything else. But what I didn't remember, because trust me, that's one of the lines. People quote it to me. They want me to write it for tattoos. I didn't remember that the next thing that she said was opening up about how she wanted people to know there was more to her than just some party girl yeah and and so i i kind of love that this heartbreak happens tenderly and that she doesn't get mad she just admits that she's sad because she's been diving into courage she's she's been writing her first speech it's it's when she starts

finding her voice and and I think there is something that does make you more bold but also much more tender when you begin to find your voice and you begin to find your purpose and you and you look to history and and everything like clicks yeah and and that was a moment where she came alive but it's it's an experience that I've had in my life coming alive with a purpose that I've learned from studying history and like, oh, I have chills thinking about it. It just, it felt so good to not just do it in my own life, but to do it out in the world like that. It was very, very cool and special.

Well, meanwhile, you're wearing like the hottest outfit ever, like the little, like, pink. And that's what I love is that you, Brooke, Brooke embodies a balance between femininity and sexuality and power and intellect and she doesn't have to cut one to be the other. And that's what she refuses to. That's super important. We don't have to be school mams to be smart. Duh. Yeah.

Brooke paved the way. She was like, I'm going to show my ass in this sweet skirt and also tell you what's up. Yeah. She was like, today I'm feeling inspired by Clueless. and Mary Kennedy. Oh my gosh. Guys, okay, but let's talk about Clueless is kind of reminding me

of trends of the time, which I think really made their way into this episode. Let's talk about Jessica Harp's hair. Yes. The flat iron flip, which was so popular back then. I think that started

with Reese Witherspoon in Swedenham, Alabama, right? Wasn't that the moment? That was such a look. Like the powder blue jeans. Like Ryan, maybe. Oh, yeah, the powdery jeans. The jeans that were, like, kind of powdery blue. They went, like, that wash was so weird.

The pointy-toed high-heel boots. Oh, yeah. Yep. Or a thing. That smoky eye with very skinny eyebrows. Yes, and the glossy, glossy lip. Yeah. The glossy glossy lip.

I love it. It was so fun to see that, that sort of PC flip. I haven't seen that in so long. Well, actually, we just watched Kate and Leopold the other night, and Meg Ryan had that hairdo too, but I'm not sure what year that was. But it was a little shorter. It was still short. Rees Witherspoon did it in Sweet Home, Alabama. And it was really fun. Busy Phillips has been doing Girls Five Eva for Peacock. And it has been doing like flash vaccines with that flip. Oh my gosh. We watched the episode. I was like, is that busy?

Yeah. Also, why those two have never played sisters? Hello? Beyond me. Oh, yeah. Somebody needs to get it together. Yeah, yeah. I just remember. remember how excited we all were to have them on the show. We loved the records. God, that song coming on took me back in the most intense way. I just want to listen to that album all night now. And again, with the directing, the cut to the lyrics of that song, every group that they cut to, Joy to you, you know, to Haley and Taylor and then back to Nathan, you know, between you and Chris, between Brooke and Lucas, between Brooke and Lucas. Right? Where you're just like, oh my God. Like every single way that they cut between all of us

hit those lyrics. I was like, oh my God, this cuts so deep. This song. It was amazing. I loved it. Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly like very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball.

Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. they were also such cool girls I was like intimidated because even when I worked at MTV I was always intimidated by the artist like we didn't mingle it was like still intimidated by the artist yeah yeah you just like you try to be cool and you're like hey welcome can I get you a snack like how do you take your coffee you know like you try to be like cool that way um but they were both so cool and I remember joy hanging out in that green room with them and Tyler and you because we ended up shooting like very, very late into the night after everybody else had like gone home. And I remember feeling like very special that we got to like stay behind with them in the green room. I don't remember that, but that's awesome. It was normally our green room for like cast while we were filming. And so then they just turned it into that for the show. You know, Tyler in this episode is very button pushy. Yeah. Yes. I mean, this is.

Isn't he always? He is, but it was likable in this. Yeah. It was, there was like something had happened to Chris Keller where he knew he had power. So instead of just trying to rile people up being kind of a dick, he just went, oh, I can do that to you and I can do that to you. You guys have been acceptable. Okay, that was just being a dick. The stuff in the green room, that was a power play.

Yeah. But honestly, okay, like, let's just think about this from Chris Keller's perspective. Okay. You meet this chick who's an amazing performer. Mm-hmm. You find out that not only is she married, but she's married to like a fucking dude from the high school basketball team. Like, wamp, womp, she's got so much potential, and she's locked down in this little town of Tree Hill. and he has the tools to liberate her

and give her her heart's desire. Like, he's not totally wrong. Interesting. And that's what's great about our show is that nobody's ever totally wrong. Yeah. Like when Peyton and Lucas are hooking up behind Brooks back, there is a thing there.

Is it bad? Yep. Is it real? Yep. And so Chris Keller isn't being a monster he's being a human that sees a girl with so much potential and he likes it and he wants more for her i love that you see that that's so cool that's what i love about our show guys yeah it is that's what it is there's no just clear villain even dan who is obviously the clear villain he still

has so handsome with that haircut i know this haircut but he still has all these moments has and has had all these moments where we're like, oh, I get it. I know where he's coming. Oh, you know, it's hard. But do you guys think that that's one of the reasons that our show has stayed evergreen? Because it does remind you, no matter how much someone's behavior hurts you or enrages you or confuses you, it reminds you to look at people and ask, well, what's going on with you? Yeah, where are they coming from? Where are you coming from? Why did you do this? What am I not seeing? It has encouraged so many people to look beyond just the present moment with someone and keep investing and dig in and do the work. And I don't know.

I think it's for that reason that. Well, even after I did therapy after I left Montreal, the note I kept getting was the people that you keep trying to push out, invite them in. Like, like, figure out what's making them hurt and you will feel less slighted. And that is the note of our show. Figure out what is making that other person hurt. And then you can make a decision whether they're being an asshole or they're being a scared puppy. It really is empathy. That's, that's ultimately what it's teaching everyone, right?

And teaching us. I mean, that's kind of what we're doing as actors, too, majorly, actually. but by the way some people will just be assholes like yeah it's fair to arrive at that decision there's very few people sorry that my wine just kicked in and i realized it was like talking like this and i said something oh my god are we turning into romey and michel what did i just say i just remember the thought i was in the middle of oh my god and i watched bill and ted's excellent adventure last night for the first time with my daughter oh it's so fun which was hilarious be excellent to each other joy be excellent to each and my brain just all of a sudden i was missing

In mid-sentence, my brain shut down. Honestly, that was great. Anyway. No, but you were saying, and you were right, you were saying that as actors, that is our jobs, right? We have to have empathy, not only for our scene partners in scenes, but with our own characters. And it's something, I love it so much. I had Connie Britton on Work and Progress after White Lotus, and I was like, I have a million questions for you. God, she's so good.

And we were talking about the themes of that show and how, on that. unlikable this woman and some of these characters could be, and she said, yeah, no, I never judge my characters. That's right. No matter what they're doing, no matter how terrible they are. Sometimes as actors, we have to sign up to play actually terrible people to make examples of them and their terrible ideas. And yet, you can't judge your character if you really want to play them. So we are required to find more empathy, not only for the people we agree with, but for the people we disagree with. It's literally our job. It's the loving your enemy concept in action in a lot of ways. We just step outside of your own perspective and see where someone else is coming from.

How'd you do it joy when you had to admit to Nathan that you kissed Chris? Because that is a bombshell in this episode. You spend the whole episode hiding it from. Nathan. You blame it on your sister. Yeah. You brush it off. You tell me, you tell Peyton that like Chris kissed me, you know? And then finally with Nathan, you've got to tell him. Yeah. Do you remember shooting that scene? You did so good, baby. Oh, thanks. It was beautiful. I remember it in some way. there's a recess in my mind where I am there. I don't, yeah, I mean, I've been in that apartment so many times. Maybe I'm just making it up.

But it is hard to admit something that's shameful. That's always hard. And especially to the person who you know it's going to hurt the most. Yeah. Um, I appreciated that Haley didn't try and excuse it away or, um, brush past it, but, you know, she really just sat with it and nodded her head and, I mean, she, she, she, um, yes, of course, she tried to put some context with it, but it wasn't like, hey, it's not like I slept with him. Like, it's not that big of a deal. I mean, yeah, she knew what she did. Yeah. And also for Haley to be lying to someone that is really important to her. She's never done that before.

She's always been the good girl. That's how it is, right? One lie and just, it's always spirals. You can't, it's never just one. You think it's just one. And then you pull a thread and the whole thing comes unraveled. The way you held the back of his head, as you said yes, and you were like really trying to get him to stay in it with you.

Oh. oh and we all god that's what i started sweating so bad and i was just like we were all like don't touch him don't touch them but oh god oh god i know because you know have you been on the receiving end of that and the person reaching out and trying to touch you nope it's like get your hands off of me yeah i mean it was you guys did a really really good job in this episode and then Nathan, you know, looking at the bench at the riverwalk and running home. Oh, God. Why?

So good. And the slow motion of the keyboard. And I was not prepared for the bracelet. Sophie and I didn't remember the bracelet. I totally forgot about that. That's a big move. But you know what? If he said it's over, that's what she believes.

Wow. And that's true of, I think a lot of men are like that. like once they make up their mind there's really no it's like a switch goes off a wall goes down there's no way to rewind that i think i disagree really i think men i think men say they're done and they don't fucking made it i think when when a woman says we are done here that's when it's like dead and final forever it hasn't been my experience so maybe it's not gender specific i don't know I guess it's not. Yeah, it's just, it's like, how stubborn are you?

What's your zodiac sign? That's funny. That's funny. Oh, yeah, boys can be coerced joy. I'll teach you all sorts of tricks. They're monsters. That's so funny. No, but I hated, I hate it for Nathan.

Yeah, and I hated that for Nathan, too. That was so hard to see that bracelet sitting on the table, Just knowing that she was like, I accept your resignation. Although Sophia and I fully enjoyed the palpable energy when you approached that tour bus. And Chris Keller was like, say what? It was steaming and not just the exhaust from the bus. Yay. I'm just trying to keep up with joy, you know.

But seriously, like you walking up there, another really good. shot you know seeing the girls leave michelle and jess and you know it felt very real like everybody's packing up it's time to go and there you are yeah and and and you said it to him you need to do this for you yeah and she had to i think that's a small bag though like what are you on this tour that bag was so small it was hayley's an expert packer if nothing else that girl is efficient. She's like, I'm going to wear the same baby doll t-shirt. Hey, by the way, what did you wear on that actual tour? Did you have like a go-to, like, cool girl get up? Oh, my gosh, I did. It was the rainbow dress that I bought at some vintage store

in New York when I was living there in 2000. And it was a, I still have it. I still have it. I still have it. Oh, we need pictures. Joy. I love that dress so much. So it's like paper thin, but, you know, I wore a slip underneath it. It was beautiful. Even better.

Yeah, I've got it. Well, I loved this episode. I'm really excited to find out what happens in the next one. What is the next one? The Quiet Things that No One Ever Knows. We got more Jake. We got more Haley and Nathan. We got Mo Brooke.

Hey. Oh, yeah, the election is like happening full swing. Yeah. This is going to be a big deal. I'm excited. Should we spin a wheel, guys? I think so. Okay.

I might sneeze. Who is most likely to? Forget where they parked their car. All right, all right, all right, all right. Which character is most likely to forget where they parked their car? I mean, that's a Bevan thing, if ever, I heard. That makes sense. That's a great point.

Yeah, but. Is there anybody else? Yeah. Who's kind of spacing? I was going to go deep into the last seasons of the show and say Julian, but that felt kind of dark. Oh, poor Julian. You're not wrong.

We have a male and female option. Yeah. He's so used to valet. Poor guy. But I don't know in real life. Have you ever lost your vehicle? Constantly. Joy, of course.

I mean, is there any other answer? Obviously. Oh, my God. It's perfect. Joy and I have had some car adventures. I just want to say, I endorse Joy for most likely to. Thank you. Forget where she parked her car.

Well, it wasn't. It wasn't called Joypeter for, No reason. I'm always going to be your friend with the iPhone to take pictures of your parking spot in the garage. I'm old enough now. Like, I've lost it so many times that now I know to do that and that I can't talk on the phone or talk to the person that I'm with when I park my car and when we walk away, it's like just I have to turn around.

I have to take the mental picture. I have to look at the numbers and all the things. So now I generally do that when we did our Drama Queen's photo shoot and you drove and we all went to get sushi and we had to take a picture so we like we did because we were in that underground parking structure with everything looked to say I'm never going to find my way it's fine it's fine my god you don't need to that's why we have technology joy we'll get you I love you guys that was fun hey I love seeing your faces you guys and we love all of you come back next week we can't wait to talk about some

Oh, good night. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens, O-T-H.Hool Or email us at Dramaquins at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl.

Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. Smart girl, rough girl. but you'll tough girl you could sit with us girl drama queen drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens it may look different but native culture is alive my name is nicole garcia and on burn sage burn bridges we aim to explore that culture somewhere along the way it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop that's dr lee

francis the fourth who opened the first native comic bookshop explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.