Drama Queens - All About Dan • EP 710

Episode Date: September 23, 2024

Joy and Rob welcome Paul Johansson who meticulously dissected what it was like directing this episode. Rob opens up about shifting gears to view OTH from a viewer's perspective, how the show helped guide him to therapy and Paul shares an interesting story involving an ex-girlfriend and some fans.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. From prologue projects and Pushkin Industries, this is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens.

We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama, girl, cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl, you could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama, drama queens, drama queens, drama, drama queens, drama, Queens. Okay, season seven, episode 10, you are a runner, and I and my father's son, air date November 16th, 2009. Hey, Drama Queens, you have me and Mr. Robert Buckley and Mr. Paul Johansson, who directed this episode. Say hello to your fans, Paul. Hello to my fans and not hello to the other people. Well played. Well play. Let's just start. Let's set the

tone at Petty and just run with it. I'm feeling a little Dan Scottish. Paul, will you read the synopsis for us? Nathan reaches the breaking point with Clay, causing a rift between Haley and Quinn. Quinn is played by. Jantelle Van Santon. Right. Don't everyone remember that.

And let's see, Brooke comes clean with Julian about her worries regarding his growing connection to Alex. You're always just ornery on purpose. Always. Meanwhile, skills, I wonder how he got that name, pursues a new career in Los Angeles, California on the West Coast, and Millicent's drug problems worsen. We saw that coming.

Boy, oh, boy, did we ever. Directed by The Incomparable Paul Johansom. Paul Elizabeth Johansson. Old P.E.J. Paul Joe has been. Oh, no. I'm so glad you could be here for this episode, Paul, because especially after watching it,

It's just a perfect one. Because this was also really the first time you and I ever interacted. This is the first time? Yeah, as characters and also pretty much as human beings. I wanted to be your friend, but you really were not interested. So it's not a good thing to work with you. You know, it was I was capped off at friends who were a little older than me. And so I just, you got waitlisted, but you made it eventually.

We got there. You also drowned me on our first day of work. so like don't make it sound like you came in being charming and sweet, okay? Do you remember that scene? Do you remember shooting it? I remember everything about that scene. I remember how they were more concerned about the cameras

than they were about you and I getting swept away into the ocean. What happened? It was just, it wasn't calm. It was a bit wavy. But, you know, but look, the crew is fantastic. They were awesome. They were really cool. But the water was always nice, right?

Water was wasn't that cool. It was pretty good. It was actually fun day to get out in the waves and kind of like blow as much time there as you could before you had to go back in the studio. And it was funny because I remember you saying you had your hand. Your wrist was really bothering you at the time. And you said, hey, why my wrist is really bothering me. And I said, oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, no worries.

Well, I'll be off, be ginger with it. And then I realized the only thing I had to hold on to was your wrist. So it was this game of me balancing getting drowned and also being. so delicate with one of your wrists. But wasn't I, I was grabbing you here, right? Yes, but I was grabbing your wrists. And you were grabbing onto it, right? Yeah.

Right, right, yeah. I was worried about choking. You were worried about hurting you, too. Those seem like hard scenes to shoot when you're pretending to drown someone in the ocean. It's not even a controlled environment like if you're on a soundstage with a tub or something. Like, that seems really difficult. Except the thing is with him was I didn't, he, he, It would look bad, I think, if he just kind of made himself fall into the water.

So I do remember being a little bit kind of like, you know, I'm, you know, I'm a bit playful. But I remember kind of like sweeping his feet one time until he would splash. Rob, did that piss you off? I didn't remember that. I didn't remember that. I did. I swept your feet one time. He did.

He was going down easily. And I'm like, I think it's a great choice. I wonder how I felt about it because I was curious about Paul coming into this. Like, because like I said, we hadn't really had any off-camera time together. Are you scared? I would say it was a mix of, there was probably an elephant, excuse me, an elephant, an element of intimidation because you had been there a while. And you're also you, you know, you're lovable, but you're dickish.

And so I didn't know how to read that at first. Like, I didn't know if it was, of course, back then I was taking everything personally. So it was, does he not like me? Is this just the way he riffs? So it wasn't until the second time you directed an episode that I really had a moment where I realized, oh, he's, as a director, you gave me a really good note. And I, and I remember thinking, oh, like, he's, he has a lot to say and to teach me. Okay, this, this guy can, this guy can be a teacher.

Like, this is, okay, it was great. It was really helpful. But yeah, early, early days, I was very much like. Don't know. Don't know. I do want to comment on that idea because I think Joy's brought it up and I think some of the other actors have too and it's the onset way for me not to get Snidly Whiplash bad guy mode head

where I'm just being bad in the character is to make it fun for me to be that and I know you understand that because you do it too when you're in the work and you have to do things that are outside of your I'm Canadian so I apologize for everything all the time. So in order to get away from that as an actor

because it's really not serving me as an actor to constantly apologize when I'm playing a character that doesn't even know what the word apology means, it's I try to make it playful for me so that when you say the, I don't know if you said dickish or whatever it was, that is true, but that's a way of tapping into a way of my brain

for me to make the character kind of more have a twinkle in my eye as I do the stuff like that I'm doing. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Every character has to be approached differently.

And when you play a character like that for so many years, on and on and on, yeah, there's got to be ways to sort of figure out how do I stay in this zone, but also not just fall into misery about like living in the life of the brain of this character. Yeah. But it's also for you guys too on the set and for the crew, the other people that have to be around, like a Dan Scott kind of. of character to when you're walking around and you're kind of being a little bit playful in between scenes so that because that energy as I said many other podcasts especially with you joy I think I've said before is it's it's kind of can be misconstrued as me now I am kind of super I love to test boundaries sometimes I like to see I don't want to know who they are I do enjoy that process yeah but the truth is and this is going to I'm

going to get Robert's going to like laugh and is his you know pink fur or yellow fur coats about to like get ripped in pieces because he's not going to believe this I'm actually super shy I really am and so all of that is like a Jim Carrey kind of way of making me not have to be me in order to be able to play the part if it makes anything yeah I think that's intrinsic to a lot of artists and the and the idea of pushing boundaries and you know I mean I think so many artists are like that we try and figure out what the boundaries are so that we know how to play. We know how far we can go.

Yeah. Yeah, you're always testing the fence. Do you remember Jurassic Park? Do you know the metaphor I'm making when they say, what's wrong with the fence? And they say, oh, the velociraptors are constantly testing the fence looking for a weakness. It's like, yeah, always, always testing.

And by the way, when I say diggish, I don't mean mean. You just, like, you freely give shit. And I was a new kid in school. And so I was just, and, you know, I was just constantly like, what's the read? Does this person like me, not like me? Whoa, what did he do? You know, and so it was like, I just took me while to figure you.

It took me longer to figure you out. And also, we only had work where we were antagonists. Like we only had, we never like, like, Joy and I, like, we had loving scenes, which also give us more time to talk and to be warm. It was like, I saw you for a scene. You drowned me. I saw you for a scene. I told you to fuck off.

It was like, they gave us no opportunities for like. sweet bonding. Yeah, that was a surprise on the beach when you looked up and you're like, sorry. You just keep moving. Clay's like, I'm not going to acknowledge you. You guys ever read what the fans were saying about that move on the beach? No. No. You never read all this up there, right? No. It built sympathy for you. It built huge, like, it built a really good kind of like people were seeing a side where, because you're usually like totally in charge and then somebody's coming in and going, yeah, how's water taste, you know, and boom, boom, you know. So it's kind of sort of building people to understand a little more sympathetic towards

your character, I thought. But here, my question is, did this, I mean, I guess we'll bounce around a little bit, but since we're talking about this and, you know, Clay has gotten fired from being Nathan's agent, he's also been fired now in front of Nathan and Haley and his other bosses from his agency, I'm not sure I understood the purpose of this moment in the story of Dan drowning Clay or faux drowning Clay and being like, your new life starts today. And I mean, I get that's Dan's schick right now. But Clay at the end then goes and gives his speech to Nathan and he's apologizing.

And wouldn't he have done that anyway? Like, did it really accomplish anything different for Clay being drowned? I had the opposite experience of you. It made complete sense to me. Okay, tell me. Well, Dan is still looking out for his son even though he wants nothing to do with him. He used his talk show to get rid of the Renee problem. He found out Clay misstepped and he checked Clay real hard.

And what was interesting about that scene was there was scary Dan. But then as he's as Clay's like, you're a lunatic walking away. Dan hits him with some serious life coaching. Yeah. And he tells him, like, you want to be an agent, go be an agent. So it's, it wasn't malice. It was a wake up call. It was done in a very Dan Scott way. Yeah. But did it work? Like, was Clay mopey enough that he was going to quit and like, I don't know about that. Because Clay makes a point of saying, I made a promise to my dead wife that I'm never going to quit. But you can't argue that like it shook him up. It got his attention. And it. It certainly didn't take away any fire under his butt. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's true.

That's true. So to me, you know, it was wildly aggressive and unexpected. Like, it kind of fit perfectly for me in Dan Scott's trajectory. Paul, how did you direct something like that when you have to be in it? How do you know that you're getting the material that you want and you're getting the shots that you want? You have to buy into it. You have to buy into what the writers are leading you to. because if you have any reservations about shooting it and trying,

I'm going to try to, you know, D, you know, I don't know what it is. It is take the, take the fangs out of this scene and just make it kind of like work for me in a way. A lot of times I think you're in this type of tell. You have to know who your audience is, right? Yeah. In this type of scenario, I think you have to just fully buy into what they're attempting to do and give the babosity to it that exists. And I really didn't feel like I would be doing a good job.

job with this scene if I was like to, you know, to really play, you know, underplay it or maybe not such a big thing, but I just went for it with Augusto thinking, you know what, the audience is going to love this, you know, they're going to, they're going to, they, a lot of things that we do in that show, you have to believe they're going to buy, and they have to buy that this is, and I do what I always do, which is, as he very appropriately pointed out, the justification from Dan's side, from Mauritian actor was all about my son. It was all about what's going to be good for him in the long run and getting this guy, you know, on board in the right way

is going to be good for the long run. Directing-wise, I will say this. There's a lot of putting together, whenever we shoot with water or animals, it's going to be logistically a nightmare and you're going to be there all day. So I just wanted to make it simple, but I wanted to make it look like I put in, you know,

the right amount of understanding. You know, I didn't want to do, too many underwater things are crazy shots. Just get the shots and let's get on to the next scene. Don't overdo it. It didn't seem a really big thing other than I know that the camera has to be waterproofed. So I wanted to be at the beach for a shot before that so that they could have time to set up the second camera to go to the water.

So we weren't just waiting around. So I did a scene before I did that scene. So they'd be able to set up the underwater rig. So when we finished, we could go right to it and not have to wait around. You always were very efficient with your time management as a director. That is true. You popped on your producer hat and got real efficient with your setups. Yeah, I put the Drama Queen's audience to sleep.

It was more about the personality. It killed with Joy and I. Our audience may have tuned out, but Joy and I were hanging on everywhere. I mean, they're a sophisticated audience. We have, this is what's so great about this audience. They're just, you know, they're curious. And, you know, my favorite people are curious people. You know, I love that about the art.

They want to know everything. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis. who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history.

On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a massacist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why.

Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare. And frankly, bullshit. Kill the ambassador, just to cover something up, you put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years.

I'm Leon Nefok, from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yeah, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi. on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. While we're talking about Dan,

because I have a question about this, so in this episode, Rachel goes with Dan back to Tree Hill, and she's standing in the high school hallway. She asks him, Dan, to meet her there, and says, we should shoot an episode here in the hallway where you killed your brother.

and Dan's response is so wide-eyed and Rachel's being so obviously entitled and just has this general disdain for humanity that feels so palpable. Can you give us an insight into, it seems so anti, I mean, Dan's so smart, he's so calculated. How does he not see that she's being so manipulative? Or does he see it and he's playing her too? Like, why between just the two of you would you have had this sort of do-eyed response of like, oh, yeah, oh, gosh, that might be really, I don't know what the line was that you said, but your whole demeanor was very sincere and sort of do-eyed. And Rachel was being so obviously villainous. It was Rachel pitches the idea and you take a beat, Paul, and then you say a little insensitive, isn't it?

And without skipping a beat, she says, not as insensitive as murdering your brother. well i mean first off i do sometimes like to give credit for our a lot of our writing team really sometimes would give us some very interesting things to deal with and i thought that was a pretty interesting choice i i always played dan the one secret i always played with dan was he's in the no dan is never not in the no so the fact that i'm aware of what she's doing exploiting a terrible terrible school shooting and a huge huge issue that I had with even shooting the scene in the first place and having to kind of roll over in my head as a human being to play the part that would do that, and then seeing,

well, look, you know, if you point out ugly things to the world, then people can see that there's broken people in the world that do terrible things. And as opposed to, you know, being unaware or we have to be sophisticated in our approach to horrific inhumanities on our planet and pretending them away in television does nobody a good job, a good service. So I was okay. okay with my character pulling that off. I didn't, you know, I didn't anticipate it being such a, you know, a profound thing and actually saving the show from, you know, from being canceled. It's from what I understand.

Oh, the shooting. Yeah. Yeah. But so now when we're talking about exploiting that, as a person, my first thought was, ooh, this is going to be touchy. How am I going to do this? And then I thought about it from the character's point of view. and he, you know, I don't think Dan has the same motivation as her in the end.

In a weird way, they're both using each other. She's using me, money, fame, glory. So Dan knows. Dan's fully aware. 100%. And so, but there's an agreement. I almost feel like the Rachel Dan marriage, they sat down and negotiated. They didn't fall in love.

Oh, I love that. I've always felt that, you know. Yeah. Part of the negotiation wasn't that I was to exploit my brother's killing situation. and you know that this is not in the contract kind of a moment. I feel like that's the way that I had dealt within my head. Does that make sense? Yeah.

And can I say as a viewer, I liked it because I, this season has done a good job of blurring the line on whether Dan has changed or he's still the same guy with a great hustle. And I liked this line because it was a moment to me where I was, I couldn't figure out whether I was getting a peek behind the curtain at who he's becoming or if it's just. just, it's just a great long con hustle. I think we have to play that line, that balanced stay on that line. If I ever commit to either side of that line, which was part of my conversation with the creatives, was that I can't truly show that either this is all a big act or that I've actually converted, I have to balance the line as often as I can, as close as I can to not let me not even know which side of that line I'm on so that it creates a more compelling

dramatic twist for the series. It works. It really works. I mean, it's why he's one of the great villains of television. That's what I loved about this role. You know, you guys have all these incredible interactions with each other and you're all the same age and you're all, you know, you're having kids and falling in love

and you're doing this and all these things. And I get this character that kind of gets all these incredibly nuanced things that have to be, you know, kind of winter-wollen. So I really, that's why I was so grateful to be we'll play the part, you know. It's fun to watch. I mean, it's really fun to sit and try and figure out what am I watching?

Like, what am I seeing? Is this a person who is, like you said, Rob, has he changed? Or has he? This is a long game. This is a long game hustle. And I'm really enjoying the interaction between Dan and Rachel. That is the biggest surprise of this whole season that I never knew I needed in my life. But because when the show was airing, I wasn't watching it at the time.

By then, I was in my own world and just going to work and doing my job. So to come now and watch it, it's so satisfying. And let's give her some credit, DeNeal, some credit, because I like really love, actually, working with people that roll with my insanity. So when I'm in a scene as Dan, and I can't always tell you where it's going, Um, she's always like one step with me. She's, she's never not picking up on what I'm doing. She's going, oh, that's what we're doing.

Then let's do it. She's so game as an actress that it made it super fun and super, um, sort of fresh. Every scene was so fresh because she, she knows her stuff. She's, she's fully. Always prepared. When you wake up and go to the scent, first you can read through the lines, she's off book like that the way that I like to work and read to roll man and i just i love that about her and it made that playing that character and that

season so much more fun you know well you guys shine i mean i i i take notes obviously for this uh for every episode and i and i at least half of the episodes there's just a random note that's like holy shit paul is so compelling you know dan is quickly it's funny because when um you know we started doing conventions i i had little backstory i i've never like i don't know the show when signed on. I quickly binge, I think, five and six, but I've never seen one through four. So when this podcast opportunity came around, I've said, I'm basically approaching this as a first-time viewer. Because when the show ended, I was like, great, done, never going back. So I am now watching this basically as a first-time viewer. And so when we were doing conventions and I would

see so many people loving your character. And all I knew was sort of the big broadstrokes. I think, that's so interesting. And I got to say, now that I'm actually watching as a viewer, I totally get it. Because even though you've done some bad things, I'm like, but I'm interested. When he's on the screen, my eyes go to him. I want to know what he's up to. I'm on for the ride.

Yeah. So yeah, you kill it, man. And Daniel does as well. You two together are so much fun to watch. Well, I mean, I think Nathan and Haley have really one of my favorite dynamics. And for me, working with Joy, I think that's what, that's how we became friends, was because we just had such a good professional, you know, chemistry or characters. It was so interesting to watch Dan and Haley scenes.

And I always seen Dan and Haley, not Haley and Dan. Yeah, we did. We had a lot of fun. It was easy. I mean, talk about just rolling with it. Like, we, I think we recognize that in each other. And that's always a fun thing to encounter in an actor. Who did you have great chemistry with, Robert?

Like, who did you feel your character had the best? chemistry with like you know oh i mean i would say by virtue of of our relationship i mean chantelle and i because we we went into it sort of in like we got thrown into a foxhole together we were the only two new people and we had most of our stuff together so we bonded real quick and then we just developed kind of a nice shorthand and it made the work very easy very natural um i really enjoyed working with james yeah i was going to say like Like, you two were so easy to watch on camera. It worked, and it's funny because James, I have a couple friends in my life who, for some reason, when I get around them, it's like catnip.

I can't help, but just want to make them laugh. And I'm like hyper. And James is one of the, I think, because he's pretty quiet, still, you know? And it just, it brings out, like, my inner kid. And I'm like, let's laugh together. So every time. Like, hey, hey, hey, laugh, hey, hey, hey. I was always trying to make him laugh and do the outrageous.

So, yeah. He's got a great sense of humor. He laughs really easily. He's so easy to be around. Yes. One person at each of you, and I'll answer this too, would have loved more scenes with? Oh, gosh. Well, Dan, I mean, you and I would have had way more fun.

I mean, it was so, so few and far between when we actually did get to interact together. What about you, Rob? I found myself, it's funny, because when we watched this episode, I didn't remember at all that you and I had a scene in the bar where I'm drinking and you're like, this isn't what I meant by get your life together, you know? And then you invite me to have a drink with you. And so I didn't remember the scene

at all and I thought, this, I want to see this scene. I want to see these two dudes sit down and talk. They've both got history. They have a shaky relationship. They've only met once and it was during a drowning. Like, I want to see the scene. So I would have loved I would have loved to have seen

more of Clay and Dan, although I will say honorable mention, Victoria. Oh, yeah. Dude, she's an assassin. I would love to watch the banter between Clay and Victoria. I was just going to say, if I had one character on the show, I would have liked to have more scenes with because it would have been deaf. They could have created such an amazing storyline for the two of you for some reason

to get into cahoots together about something. That would have been a ball to watch. Dan and Victoria have to try and one up each other, you know, negotiating something or I don't know. Well, speaking of negotiating, and... Good segue, Joy. Yeah, I got to say, there's some real bad agenting happening in this episode. I don't know.

I mean, I get from Clay's perspective that he's like, you know, holding out for the best. But Millie getting an agent and the agent asking for $500,000 for a post-campaign, like, she's already done it. She's already worked for free. I'm so confused. Listen, this is going to be an... popular opinion probably I can't stand this storyline yeah please also don't hear what I'm not saying I love Lisa Goldstein yeah and she did this role as well as you could have as well as anyone could have she did great but this is just such a heavy-handed after-school

special cautionary tale where it where they've even changed it was sort of like like I said the other week like they etch-a-sketched her character and were like give us a cliche model trope like she's done one thing for brook she has an agent asking for half a million dollars she's already doing cocaine to keep up with it's been like two weeks and she has completely hit rock bottom like what the what what what the hell is that it was so dumb for also come on you don't leave coke out in the open on the mirror you put it away you save it because that's precious to you you know and like you don't leave the dollar bill rolled up on the ground so much i was curious about how you felt about directing this dan because i know it was all in the script

you're exactly the same as the water you you have to you have to buy into it and you have to put it all on display and you try to make it as real as you can and leave the judgment to the audience you have to you can't you can't re-envision things that you may not be fully on board with and and then try to recreate the show for the creators. I think if it's a feature film, we sit down, we talk it through, we work it out, we cut what doesn't, isn't essential. And we say, can we play this instead of show this? Is there a way we can play this as an artist, as an actor?

Can the actress play this instead of indicate with all these little things around her? Can she be demanded as an actress to go inside and show us the turmoil she's going through, the depth of the pain, the frustration with these children, choices. Is she doing the right thing? All this. Through her behavior without it being, as you said, you know, these, these, these, these, these, uh, these, uh, these, uh, cliche tropes. But I can't do that as, as a hired gun on a show that has asked me to facilitate their ideas. Um, it's not a battle I want to take on and it's not appropriate for me to do that. I took the job. So what I do is I go, okay, let's put everything they've asked for in here. Let's do our very, very best. Let's give

them plenty of coverage so that they can cut around what isn't working. And let's just tell, you know, talk to your actors and say, do me one favor. Do not lie. Just tell the truth. If this isn't, don't touch it. If that, if you don't know how to hold a, uh, rolled up, you know, $100 bill to do your blow, don't touch it. Just do your scene as truthfully and honest as you can and we'll make it look great for you. We're going to protect you. I don't want anybody faking it. So that's the only way that you can get through a scene like that. Does that make sense? This is one of my favorite things about you as a director because I have, we worked with so many on the show. And I've worked with directors who feel

awkward about the material and they lean into, they lean more into their shots and more, they just kind of try and almost stay away from the material, like pretend like it's not there. And they focus more on the lighting and the shots and it's like, well, just get through the scene and then we'll move on. And you always lean into it, which seems so counterintuitive, but actually by pushing in and making it much more human and just about the human interaction that's happening between the people, then the sets don't matter. The lighting doesn't matter. The costumes don't matter. Nothing else matters except the emotions that the two people in the scene or however many are feeling. And I will buy almost anything in that scenario. And I learned

that from you. It's really of such a valuable lesson as an artist. And that's what we see here in this scene. I just want to thank you for giving me such a beautiful compliment. It means everything. Absolutely. It's so true. And that's what we see in this scene. A Lee did such a beautiful job. I was really, oh, he was so still. He was so un, I mean, he was disturbed, not flustered. You know, we're used to seeing mouth be, I think flustered is a word I think of with him a lot. And to see him grounded in his place as a human and a friend and a fellow traveler in life in a really grounded way and just watching this unfold with someone that he really loves and he wasn't trying to fix it. He wasn't trying to solve it. He was just

present. I don't know what kind of conversations you and Lee had on set, but that was beautiful work from him. Well, he's Holden Caulfield to me on the series anyway. He's in that, you know, that alter ego. Somebody is an observer. Maybe he's journaling this whole thing in his head is the way that I was look at him. That makes sense? I love that. He's journaling and the whole show is in his head. I always thought of him like, that. Wow. Run with the fans.

Wait, you just exploded my brain. We were lost before lost was lost, guys. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, burn bridges, we aim to explore that

culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind of two years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive

while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, Why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre?

Bad faith political warfare, and frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been. going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi.

What difference at this point does it make? Yes, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let me ask a quick question. Joy, because I'm aware, that I'm coming at this with a limited scope of the characters and their histories, but because you've spent more time with Millie, when you are watching this particular story arc, do you see any of Millie in it? I was looking for her, and I didn't. And that's, it goes back to what you were saying about the Edges Scout. They just, they used a character. They needed a storyline and hers fit the

best at, you know, somebody in the writer's room probably said, what about Millie? And it was like, yeah, sure, that works great. And because of the time constraints and all the other storylines that were happening in the way that those had to intersect, I think they just sped it all up. I just wish that when they first introduced Millie, it's hindsight's 2020. I wish they had known when they brought Millie on the show that this is where they were going so that something could have been set up a little earlier. Yeah. But, you know, it is what it is.

Yeah, plant a couple seeds. Paul, one thing I noticed that I wanted to ask you about was there's a scene when Millie is in Alex's hotel room rifling through her closet. And what I found really interesting was it looked like her makeup was done the same way that Alex's was when she kind of arrived in tree hill. Like, it was very dark above the eye. Her hairstyle kind of reminded me of Alex's. And I was curious if there was, was there a note anywhere in there of sort of, because also in that same scene, I think Alex is wearing like a cute plaid outfit.

It's not risque. Yeah, it's like they switched roles. That's what I was wondering. And so I kind of questioned, are we doing a subtle, freaky Friday here? Is that what's happening? Was it single white female? What is the one where the girl takes up her roommate's identity? Oh, yeah, that is.

Is that what it was? But was that intentional? I'll be honest with you. I actually don't remember. This was, how many years ago was this? Six, Paul. It's only been six. I should know.

And I really, I've failed the podcast, and I think I should be booted since I can't actually remember that. I do remember. I'm sure you did in the production meetings and stuff. That seems like something that would have come up. But I know that Lisa was such a gamer that she would have gone for it. I mean, I was very proud of her. And I think that, you know, where she came from, right?

You know how she was, what her job was before working on her. Do you guys know? Tell the fans for people who don't know. I don't. You don't? I don't. I think she was Snow White in Disney World. And Jasmine and Bell.

She was a Disney World girl. We got to have Ron, because I want to, I need to know a lot about that. I know. I want to talk to Lisa. She's still perfect. Joy, you could have done that. You could still do that. I could still do that.

This is my plan. I'm just going to retire and go to Disney World and be like, guys, just put me to Princess dress. Let me hug little kids. It's all I want to do. police yeah no i i'm very i was very very thrilled with her work ethic and her willingness and and you know you guys know it's like it's there's a lot of i try to make it safe and there's a lot of ask to to dig deeper and stuff like that and she was so game so although i don't remember

the makeup question which i think is really interesting and it there's something in my head that there was something about that but i just can't be a hundred percent certain but i was really proud of her work i i think there was a lot intentional about the makeup because I noticed under, you know, the darkness under her eyes that was happening. So whether that was something that you all talked about in the production meeting or just something that, yes. I just don't remember what to match Alex's look. Yeah.

But she did great. Something I noticed earlier was there's a scene with Antoine and Allison Munn. Lauren. Oh, Miss Lauren. So it's the scene where he wakes up and he rolls over to check his phone. And she says, Antoine, what are you doing? And this was the first time I had ever heard his character's actual name. I didn't know they shared a namesake.

And so I gasped going, no freaking way they accidentally let his real name slip through the final cut. And then there's no dumb dumb. They just probably named the character Antoine. Yeah, Antoine Taylor. Not Antoine Tanner, but pretty close. One Taylor. Wow, very cool. I love that.

Okay. cool yeah I wanted to see more of them that was such a strange kind of rand I mean hopefully we'll get to see more of that storyline develop it seemed so bizarre that it was interjected uh it didn't go anywhere like nothing I mean I guess he was waiting for a phone call and then he gets the and then he gets the information so it resolved but um I don't know I'm curious as to where that's going I wasn't sure what's happening with that although it did make me really want to reinvigorate this idea of stopping by friends places or where they are just to ask a random question instead of texting people. I love this. He's got his phone. He could easily just call him, but he goes to the river court. I was like, man, why don't I do that more often? Just swing by my friend's houses and be like, hey, I forgot to tell you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, I'll see you later. That's so fun. Oh, I assumed that Julian had called him and they planned to meet at the river court. Is that not how it went down? They probably did. But, like,

for what? They had three lines. And then Julian's like, I gotta go. This chick is texting me. Like, I don't know. It seemed so strange. Let's do it. Poppins. Let's bring them back, people. N.1.1 is so well liked. I remember even before One Tree Hill, 2003, when the show started before that in the late 90s and early 2000s, we played in the NBA Entertainment League together with James, who I knew before the show, playing in that league. Oh, that's right. We all knew each other from that. And, you know, I was on a team with Leo DiCaprio and Toby McGuire and all these actors, Chris, Kevin Connolly, and James was on an opposing team and, and Tom was on another team, and we're all like mortal enemies playing against each other. And then we got here and it was just like, oh, man, we hated you.

We hated you. Because we all played basketball together when we first got to, and I was, you know, I'm much older, but it was so great that we knew each other, you know, from a basketball life. And it really helped a lot, I think, in our, in our time together, working together. Because we had that shorthand, like you guys say. Was that E-League? Because I've heard of that before, this entertainment league. Was it like Raya where you have to have someone vouch for you to get in?

Or do you have to be vetted before you can join it? That's brilliant. Train, tree. No, it wasn't a mental test either. Let's see. No, there was, you had, I think you had to be of some entertainment value to be part of the teams. but you could also be an agent or a manager or a lawyer or something. He had to be in the entertainment industry.

That's all it was. Okay. Speaking of agent, I want to go back to this. What's your perspective on this, Robert? Do you think that Clay should have locked up the deal? Or do you think that he did the right thing by holding out and, you know, case, sarah, sara. I think Clay took his eye off the ball. I think he had good intentions.

But I think you've got to know that there's another thing going on. And it's just, it's such a bad look to take your eye off the ball at a time when you have the one person he's asked you not to spend time with over. And it's so, it was so painful. And then, you know, they've been, they've, they kissed like all of a day ago. And she already comes in like, babe, do you have that fear for me? Babe. Just like I said, I think he's a good agent in that he was fighting for more because he believes in him. But I think you got you got to be keeping your finger on the pulse of everything

going on right there. Did you ask her to not say, babe? Did you say, just strike the babe part? I mean, to me, it was a little heavy hand. I think my note was, um, first of all, it's pretty soon for pet names. Because if it's like, it's sort of like the milly thing, it's like, they've been, they've been kissing. They've been more than friends for 16 hours and we're already dropping babes on each other.

babe so casual yeah you were the jerry mcguire right that's what you were fashioned after yeah the wounded jerry mcguire yeah nathan ran that scene though man i mean i love seeing him just plow in and be it broke my heart like after everything that he just went through with rene and all the all the anxiety about losing his contract with the bobcats and that he was all going to go away and we were on the edge of our seats and we finally get this big win and Dan saves the day with Renee and all of it just is all working out. And then the rug just gets ripped out from underneath us because Clay is doing what he should be doing. He's healing. He's moving on. He's like good things are happening in his life. And Quinn is getting, you know, this moment of joy and peace in her life after, you know,

how difficult her marriage has been. And for everybody to finally be in a great place. And And have this happen, it feels, it's so much like real life. I feel like that kind of stuff happens in real life all the time. And what's great about it is it's a, it's a wonderful conflict because you can understand both parties' point of view. Like they didn't make it easy to choose who was right. Nathan was completely in the right to be livid. Clay was also in the right to be fighting for what he believed Nathan's value was. So I like that they muddied the water.

It wasn't some egregious error. Yeah. You know, but yeah, it was great seeing Nathan come down hard. Which also, it's funny because it's sort of even more lends to Dan drowning clay. Because can you imagine the effort he went to to get Renee to go through that whole ruse? He gambles his ass off. It pays off. He saves the day.

And then this kid blows his son's deal. Oh, God. So in a way, tough love. actually really make sense for that scene. Yes. Okay, I'm glad you said that. It all came full circle to me now. I get it.

It's nice to be around big brains, isn't it, Joy? How did you guys feel about, I don't mean as a director, Dan, just, well, it's a lot of in this episode of Quinn telling Nathan and Haley that they need to be more understanding towards Clay. And it creates this really uncomfortable dynamic, which, eventually Nathan calls out with going, do you like living in my house for free? Yeah. You know?

Yeah. But it's also she has a point, you know, but it's that awkward thing of like, I don't know if this is the right time. No, she's pushing way too hard. And this is, yeah, this is a great example of someone who feels out of control and they are looking for control somewhere to make themselves feel better about needing, about like, I can solve something. At least I can do something.

And we've all done it. We have people in our lives who do it. It's, I think, a super human thing to do. But, yeah, I don't like it. I don't like it. You got to be able to read the room, you know? Yeah, it's not her place. Literally two hours after he found out he lost a job is not the time to be going.

Let's turn that other cheek. Also, like, Haley's her sister, Nathan's been her brother-in-law for however many years they've been married now. Is it five, six years now? Maybe 10? I don't know. But sorry fans for all of you who are mad at me for not knowing. I don't know how long they've been married. But yeah, and Quinn just started making it out with this dude.

Like, why would she immediately take his side and be like against her family? But that is also, it's a childish thing to do because, you know, your family's safe and what are they going to leave? What are they going to leave you? Like, it's your family. So she can sort of push buttons and be on Clay's side. because that's what she needs to do. She needs to feel like she's defending someone, a part of something, that she belongs somewhere

because she's kind of floating around in life right now. So I think it checks with Quinn's personality. It checks out. It makes sense with where she's at in her life. But it was too heavy-handed. I think I would have preferred much more of like a, hey, listen, can we talk? These are my feelings. I think maybe you're emotional and you're overlooking some things.

but the fact that we were in a bedroom, I had a visceral memory of being in that bedroom filming that scene with Chantelle. Paul, I feel like we did it like 12 times or something. Do you remember that too? The master took us so long. So long. Exactly.

It's probably because I overblocked the scene or let you guys just do whatever you want and then they had to cover it from nine different angles. I don't remember. I think it was the energy was slow. Yeah. I think it was actually, we may have been trying to do what I just said,

which was to, slowed down and have more of a reasonable conversation. And you knew that it needed the energy and that it's okay for characters to be flawed. Like, we just have to fight. I think we rehearsed a lot before we shot too. Yes. I remember correctly.

Yes. Did you find that we rehearsed much on that show before we shot? I don't think we did usually. No, we didn't do a lot of rehearsal. But with that scene. That scene we did, yeah. I remember one scene we rehearsed over a long time, and then we changed it after we rehearsed it a bunch of times.

We decided it wasn't working. Do you know what Sina was? I thought it was that one. And Quinn and your other sister. Lindsay. Lindsay, by the pool. Oh. That was a different episode.

But we had to rehearse that forever. Something wasn't clicking immediately. I think we were going so far so fast that it wasn't like feeling organic. Yes. We kept rehearsing trying to figure it out. I don't know if you remember this scene. I do. I remember that.

Yeah. Going back to just pre this, this bit, When Clay gets fired in front of your whole family in front of, you know, Nathan and Haley. I love that moment. It was funny, though, was the super dramatic. He does like the Charlie Brown walk out of the house and he stops and he picks up a picture of all of them. And then puts it face down on the counter. I thought, oh, that's so funny.

That's such a thing. That was written in the script. Of course it was. Listen, I'm like you, Paul. Don't put that on me. My North Star is like, let's keep it honest. My North Star is always, how can this be as subtle and grounded and honest as possible? There is no way between the two of us that we thought, that's a killer idea.

That was 100% in the script. A photo that's never been seen before on the countertop. On a part of the countertop where you never would put pictures anyway? Well, in my house, I wouldn't. No, it was absurd. The last thing you'd be doing in that moment is spending any extra seconds in that house. Did you imagine that awkward tension in the room and you stopped to look at a photo? And then there's this other funny beat, though, where Nathan asks Haley, hey, like, he's, he's questioning it.

He goes, I don't know. Do you think I made the right decision firing Clay? And you take a beat and you go, I don't know. You know, on one hand, he's Clay. You guys have been friends for over a year. I laughed going like. First of all, it's so funny that they wanted to write that into like tell the audience the timetable. But also, that is not enough time to.

make that counterargument a year, you're new friends. You're new friends. Sounds like a network note to me. It does. It sounds like them to put that in. Completely. You know what I mean? Because it works if you just, if you drop the end of it and it's just, I don't know,

on one hand, he's clay. Boom. That's enough. The audience is going to fill in the rest on their own. You don't need to tell them, it's been 372 days of friendship. You know, it's like, that's weird. Yeah. I also thought it was really strange that he got fired in front of everybody.

Like he shows up at the house and like why couldn't they have just said, it feels like it would have been professional for them to say, let's talk about this at the office, but they're just going to fire you right there on the spot. It seemed like a pissing contest, which maybe that's realistic. That's what it is, I guess. Well, and the weird thing, too, is that Clay comes in hot at them first. Clay comes in and goes, Nathan, this is BS. They're going to promise you the moon and under deliver.

He's still their employee at that point. Yes. So it's odd because if you're a team player, even though you lose a client, you want the agency to keep it. So he's already on some loner stuff, you know, when he comes in the room. Yeah. But yeah, so I think it was just sort of a pissing match of them going, cool, pack your shit. Yeah. Bye.

And then they give the girl, the one random girl, his assistant or whoever, who gets one shot. And she's like, sorry, Clay. We've never seen her before. And we never see her again. or the one male agent they're like like Kevin and I go shut up Kevin

there's just a shot of him going shaking his head also I didn't realize it if he gets an Easter egg do you realize Dan Scott is the creator of Clay's agency's name no in that scene

of the drowning you talk about fortitude you're the one who says the word fortitude now I remember and I thought oh my gosh how funny I never remembered that the egg was, the seed was planted by Dan. Wait a second.

I thought Clay worked for fortitude. No, that's the agency I create. Yeah, Clay starts up fortitude. You're about to create fortitude. Yes, correct. Oh, that's good. That's juicy. So the drowning, full circle on this episode of Drama Queens, is that the drowning,

names and the change did happen. And all the things we asked at the beginning of this episode were, you know, does it really affect you? Did it change you? Well, it did. It started a whole new company in a whole new direction and maybe had more commitment to his client's position based on that situation. Dan, Scott, so complicated, such a villain and changing people's lives at the same time. I think what we're saying on a larger scale, everyone, is if you are in some sort of rut in your life, have a friend give you a light drowning, you know? Shake things up a bit. It's going to work out.

It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing. doing for hundreds of years, you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation

basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the the modern world. Influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies.

It's almost a dirty word. one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare and, frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years.

I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yeah, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brooke and Victoria, I just want to make sure we touch on them because this storyline of Brooke, not, you know, finding out that she can't have children. Hearing that from the doctor is so.

heartbreaking. Sophia did such a beautiful job in this scene. She always shows up when there's just, especially with the real raw emotion, I mean, she just, it broke my heart. She really, that's heartbreaking for that character. And the fact that she had Victoria come into town and Victoria says, you called me and Brooke says, no, I didn't. She goes, well, a midnight call with no message is a call. And Victoria shows up and we really start to see the beginnings of Brooke and Victoria as partners instead of two people who just hate each other and have no idea how to function with each other.

And it was really exciting to see that. Well, that may be my favorite scene in the episode, to be honest with you. Yes. I thought they were both, you know, sublime. You're talking about the Brooke and Julian scene when she confesses to him that she can't have kids? Dude, they were so good in that scene. I'm glad that we didn't wrap the episode without talking about that. That scene was so well done.

It was so gentle and honest and sweet. I thought they both crushed it. And ground-breaking, too, for the show. I don't think we had anybody have that problem for once we don't until then. Yeah. We needed to get that. It felt so real that it seemed to me like it probably got shot very quickly. Like they both were so dropped in

I don't know I mean I wasn't there I don't remember or know if you remember but it just seems so simple and clean And on a lighter note Victoria at Trick

telling grubs after he correctly predicts her exact drink I'm looking for a lover and you just made the list was probably the line of the episode for me So great

So great Victoria being Toasty at close over bros and leaning on all the clothing racks as she's talking. It's such a great example of acting drunk by acting sober. And then she goes to the bar and I love this barstool wrap-up that we did too, by the way. It's just go, although characters kind of having their own little moment, but then, yeah, her sitting and talking with grubs for one more martini. It was pretty great.

Yeah, and her dropping the dime on Alex and Millie, drinking and driving and twist Millie's driving. Setting it all up And Mouth not going to jail to pick her up Good for you, Mouth Good for you And good for Brooke Brooke didn't do it either Yeah, that's right

Yep Listen, half a million dollars When you've done one job Come on Like you need a new agent Sounds like you need a new agent And a healthy slice of reality pie All right

Suzanne asks How has your experience Working on this show or in the industry impacted your life outside of work? Has it changed how you approach personal relationships or other aspects of your life? Paul? It's too big of an answer.

It's too much. I'll do my best to make it pithy. Write that down. How about One Tree Hill? Let's not say the industry. Let's just say this job. Working on One Tree Hill. I have my second family because of it.

I have my lifelong friends because of it. I have this beautiful people I can go to with all those years. we spent together. I sometimes wish we had kept together more, but that's the greatest gift from it. The fans have never had any fans from any of the show I've ever done, and I've been on a few like this. And how has it approached my personal relationships? It's complicated because, you know, it's part of now, I know this sounds maybe a little hubris in here, but there's if the show had impact, more than I ever thought when we're shooting it, 20 years later, I

still approached on airplanes and in restaurants and stuff like that. And it's a huge and I go, oh, that's right. I was on a TV show because, you know, forget why you're coming up to me. And it's sweet. It's very sweet. It's all how you take it. You know, I had one girlfriend one time, long, long time ago that was really irritated that I was being approached all the time.

And I said, what bothers you about it so much? She goes, well, they don't know you. And I said, no, no, they do. To them, they do. And you should be good to your fans. you should be they're the reason we're here you know it's silly that's a little light answer but it's i'm going to leave it no it's kind of the same one that i was going to have i don't i mean it is it's a huge there's a huge answer i think any profession has a massive effect on your

personal life and what's hard can be the hours i mean i've definitely had i mean if we're going to stick with this show i think it's the same thing that paul was saying like you you you never quite know when I'm making a new friend. I don't know if they've seen the show or not. And sometimes that can be awkward and sometimes it's not. I don't know. I mean, the industry in general has affected my life in terms of, it's mostly just the time that a lot of people don't have our schedule.

And I have lost friendships because there are people who just can't. can't, they can't understand the time constraint and they can't understand the demand that's put on us. And it's like, I've called you, you know, where have you been the last four weeks? And I'm, I'm like, I'm so sorry I was filming 14 hours a day. I just. In Bulgaria, in a castle, in a, in a cold dress. Well, I usually don't say that. What are your glass slippers too tight? But, you know, like, you try. But not everyone is cut out. for being in relationship for someone who's in this industry, too, because it's the circus, and you can't be as consistent as what some people need.

So you find different ways of connecting with people, and that's okay, but that's been a hard lesson to learn. But I've been given so many gifts. I've learned so much as an artist and as a human just from, it's too big of an answer. I've learned so much, and I love it. What about you, Rob? Yeah, friends, definitely. Like when we do these, you know, like this show and when we do conventions, it's fun for me

because it's like I really get to see this group of people I like, you know, and we have this incredible shared experience. So I'm very grateful for that. And to be honest with you, this show helped me get to a place where I finally found my way to therapy. Really? Yeah. Because, you know, it's like, I came on and it was just weird, right?

Because everyone in the town knew who we were. So there was a lot of like isolating because I was already kind of going through. a tough time so I would just sort of withdraw on like I'll just hang out in my apartment and yeah like my mental health wasn't great and I finally it was like I hit a point where I was just like something has to change and so like that was the first time I got introduced to my very first therapist halfway through one tree hill or about two thirds of the way through and that began it was sort of like the ending of that chapter of my life and the beginning of this journey of like actually figuring out who the hell I am and what I want to do, what makes me happy. So I'm incredibly

great. Like I've said on this show, it's like it was a tough experience for me personally, but I'm immensely grateful for it. You touch on something really interesting that I think a lot of people who don't know anything about the entertainment industry, they look at lives of actors who are working and they think, oh, it's so glamorous. Yeah, they work hard, blah, blah, but look at all, they get to go to all the parties and they get to, you know, get reservations wherever they want. But the isolation is so real because especially depending on your level of success, not knowing who you can trust, not knowing if someone's talking to you because,

and being nice to you because they're a nice person and you're having a genuine, lovely interaction or if somebody's just blowing smoke up your ass because you're a celebrity, there's also just having people know things about your life you know you're trying to be a private person just have have your own life and people following you around and gossiping about you it's a small town so you say something you look at somebody sideways you're having a bad day boy does that get spread around and it's that's really hard it just makes you want to go into a shell and like everybody just leave me alone i just want to hide and then you get isolated and then you don't have anybody to talk to. It's hard. You get about sharing an opinion about anything important.

Yeah. And it's one thing. Like if you're shooting in New York, no one in New York cares. They see bigger and better all the time on the sidewalk. But in Wilmington, literally, every single person knew who we were. And what that did is because I'm like, Paul, if someone wants to say, like, come up to me and say, hey, I love this thing you did. Like, I want to take a moment to hear that, validate it. Tell them thank you. Maybe snap a picture. Like, let's have a little moment. Right. But the problem is when you're when you're having a hard day, when you're a court low and you just don't have it in you to do that. And you know when you leave your door, that's all you're going to get, you know, going for coffee, sitting down for breakfast. It's just easier to go, I'm just going to stay. I'm just going to stay here by myself and I'll order something. You know, so like there was just like I said, I just isolated a lot. But yeah, but like it was also the beginning of me going like, oh, cool. I think I know who I am. But. Let's find out. Tell us about your book tour real quick.

Me? Oh, yeah. I'm going out of a book tour. You're so sweet, Paul. Yeah, my book tour for my memoir, Dinner for Vampires. It's coming out. We are on a book tour on October, the week that it goes out, October 21st. It's great.

Yeah, I mean, it's really, the story is really about my own mess. I mean, One Tree Hill is the setting. It's a backdrop. But the story is about my own. Huge mistakes that I made in my own life. But hopefully it'll make people feel like they're not so alone and isolated. Yeah. Yeah.

I could use that book about 20 years ago, Joy. Can't wait to read it. Thank you. All right, everybody. Let's spin a wheel. Paul, when it lands, would you mind telling the listeners what it is? Oh, perfect. Read it, Paul.

The winner of the Spinney Wheel Most likely to sleepwalk. I'm just going to jump right in and say Clay. And for those who know, you know. I agree. I agree. Oh, yeah. Clay for sure.

And Paul, I feel like you, do you sleepwalk? You seem like a sleepwalker. I have, but I'm a sleep talker. Ooh, that's juicy. Yeah, so it's, yeah, I'm sure it's revealed all of my... How fun for your girlfriend. friends. Paul Johansson, never not talking.

That's my novel coming out in November. There it is. Reorder. All right, next week we have season seven, episode 11, 711. You know I love you, don't you? No, too. Paul, you are lovely, an utter delight as per usual, my friend. I'm grateful to be a part of us.

Thank you for inviting me. Thank you. Love you. It's great to see you. We'll talk to you soon. All right. See you, buddy. Bye, everybody. Thanks, everybody. Have a great week. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens, O-T-H.

Or email us at Dramaquins at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queen. Smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl.

Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Drama, drama queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. From prologue projects and Pushkin Industries, this. is Fiasco, Benghazi.

What difference at this point does it make? Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.