Drama Queens - Anatomy of a Relationship • EP401

Episode Date: November 7, 2022

We begin Season 4 with the aftermath of the post-wedding car accident.  While Haley is focused on Nathan diving in to save Cooper and Rachel, the Drama Queens dive head first into the inner workings of teen relationships. The break-up of Brooke and Lucas, Peyton’s perceived betrayal and the real-life challenge of dating friends. Is it worth it?  Plus, some of OTH’s most over the top storylines!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. From prologue projects and Pushkin Industries, this is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens.

We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. You could be smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Queens.

Hey everybody, we're fresh off our tour, and we're back chatting with you about premiere of season four. It feels like it's been a minute since we've done this. It does. Yeah, it definitely does. Well, yes, since we, like, watched an episode because we've just been bopping around, saying hi to people, wearing pajamas and kissing babies. Kissin babies.

Thank God this was like 40 minutes of recap in this episode. what we did joy oh my god okay so it's the same deep water as you air date september 27 2006 the synopsis is the aftermath of the post-wedding car accident unfolds while haley is deeply affected by nathan's attempt to rescue cooper deeply um deeply screaming at the top of her lungs and rachel uh brook confronts lucas with her true feelings and peyton makes a startling discovery pressured by the fact that someone might know he killed his brother, Dan assaults dead. Oh, good to know he had a reason. I was about to say...

What a terrible write-up. I don't know how I feel about a justification there. Who did this write-up? Yeah, guys, I was feeling so much pressure. I had to strangle my wife. Yeah, I just had to do something so violent that all the women watching the show screamed at this time. Oh, God. Yeah, that was weird.

I didn't like that at all. I mean, look, our show. show is what going into season four we have some tried and true themes here okay one tree hill loves a fake pregnancy i had totally forgotten about like the bait and switch like pregnancy thing but brook did that what season one two when was that yeah no it was first season when she thought she was yeah when she thought she was pregnant and then found out she you know she was late and then went to the doctor, but then Lucas said that disgusting thing to her,

and she was like, yeah, fuck you. I'm going to make you suffer. Yeah. But it's just a little bit. The fact that in our writer's minds, like, this is what bitchy girls do. They lie to you about being pregnant. Like, I just, oh, wow.

This is how women manipulate men. And it's like, hey, guys, women at best can get pregnant for a 24-hour period once a month. Dudes can just run around and pregnant girls all day long every single day. of every single month in every single year, here, here. Like, oh, but this notion that like these, these women, this is how they get us. Wait, wait, though, are they actually, is anyone actually intentionally, I thought it was all

just a misunderstanding with the purses. No, Rachel tells Cooper at the beginning of the episode, I'm pregnant. Oh, it's what Rachel does. That's right. I thought she didn't tell them. I thought it was an implication. And then that's why. in the finale of three you don't know who it is but in the beginning of this episode and it was kind of buried in the flashbacks they extended the flashbacks so clearly we shot some of the season four episode one while we shot season three finale but but in the in this episode she says I'm pregnant and he says I don't believe you yeah yeah okay so and then she says to mouth you know I said it I said it to scare him I shouldn't have done that and it's like this big regret thing she has and and it is it's

It's like, do, have the dudes in our writer's room ever dated anybody? Like, what's going on? Yeah, they're like, oh, pregnancy, the worst. What are we going to do? This is terrifying. I mean, it is telling that those, that those, like, horrible things, girls do, you know, fake pregnancy things, never made it into the episodes that any of the guys on our writing staff who were actually dads wrote. Right. Like, like, the actual dads were like, that's not real.

That's not real. So that's kind of interesting. It's not a thing. We established a couple other patterns. So we know we love a fake pregnancy in Tree Hill. We also love a car wreck. Like, what number are we on at this point? There have been so many car.

Four? Three, four. We were working that hospital. And then we love a hospital. The theme of the fucked up wedding. So like, Zupia, I wasn't around for Brooks wedding, but did something happen bad? I think like something went wrong, but it was like a missing. not like a not drama honestly all i remember from the wedding from brook's wedding is that the vows were

so bad that i rewrote them and that joy you were pregnant and we were just like having a great time because we were excited to meet maria like that's it i i rewrote the vows and you and i like did this the eye point thing that wasn't scripted and the fans die for it and i'm like yeah that's because we're awesome nobody wrote that for us like that's all that's literally all i remember I just, I want to know what weddings are writers went to that traumatized them so badly that they were like, I've never been to a wedding that didn't end in a, you know, crash and burn. Yeah. I think that's just classic TV drama. I mean, every Dallas dynasty, you know, name your soap

and whatever it is, that's the classic, like, where do you get more high drama than a wedding and then everything going wrong? I mean, it's even a Game of Thrones. thing like the red wedding is one of the most famous things from that show i don't know what it is to get to the next level i mean you know we're gonna go let's go all the way in we're making a strong argument for elopement when you asked hill when you asked like you know what weddings if these writers been to i was like yeah did somebody get left at the altar and then i was like oh shit lindsay does that to lucas and see and then keith and uh maria mannuno's there's like you know Peyton bleeds out after her

wedding. Wait, how many weddings have we had now? We had, so we had Keith and Jules. We had Nathan and Haley on the beach. This is the second Nathan and Haley wedding. So there's three weddings. But we know what's coming. I feel like there's one more. Yeah. Like we know that that Lucas and Lindsay are going to go sideways. We know that Lucas and Hayden are going to go sideways. Uh, what other weddings are there? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, guys, but you're not wrong. I mean, it is, it is not an ironic thing to say is the human who just got married and had the best time that weekend. Yeah.

But it's like, yeah, man, I don't know. Maybe you should just elope and, like, save that money to buy some shit. I love that Elizabeth Taylor courthouse vibe, man. Give me a pillbox hat and a piece of paper to sign. Right after we were in Vegas, one of my childhood friends got married in Vegas. And it looked like the sexiest, cool, you know, Elvis married them. It was so fun. Yeah.

I was like, that's hot. You don't do that. Sophie Turner and Joe Jonas did that, and the pictures were sick. I actually made, you guys, you know I love a Pinterest board. I have a secret Pinterest board that is a full, like, retro courthouse wedding, like L.A. Classic kind of a thing because there was a point where I was like, well, if we're not going to be able to have a wedding, like if the numbers and the risk of gathering in this pandemic are going to remain so high, like when we didn't really know if there would be lulls in the summer, kind of like we know now, I was just like, oh, right. I'm going to plan something great. And I like literally designed a whole backup wedding around the pictures I thought would be cute just in case. Of course you did. The backup

wedding. It's like seven people could go. I was like, it'll be great. It'll be cute. It was very Liz Taylor. I didn't think about it, Joy. Thank you for that little nugget. I hope you I hope you get to use that somehow someday. I know. I told Grant, I was like, we'll have to do it for like a vow renewal or something. It'd be so fun. But the idea that you had like an 8 a.m. wedding. Like everyone's in the hospital by 2 p.m. So if your ceremony, let's walk it back. Let's walk it back, right? I'm pretty sure we had to eat chicken and steak and shit at your wedding. Like, it was a nighttime wedding. And then to see that everyone's in the hospital by 2 p.m., this was a brunch wedding. No, this was like a breakfast

wedding. You guys are in the Mustang going to your honeymoon at 2.01 p.m. Oh, you saw that. You noticed that time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we got married. That was the whole thing about the 29 minutes. We got married at 11. We got married 11. We partied until until 2. I mean, awesome. And maybe that's a thing. Why didn't we think of that? Like we could have been like done with our day had we had a morning wedding and then still, you know, been able to be on the news, go to the hospital back and forth, have some pregnancy tests. Like so they make fun of themselves in the episode are writers because they say like, oh, how come bad days last forever? But like legitimately, the fact that everything in this episode happened in one day is ridiculous. You called it when Moira was in the hospital room talking with her doctor about her pregnancy. Why is she in the

hospital doing that instead of at a private, well, I mean, whatever. Because a boy wrote it and they don't know how girls work. I guess. But also like, who has an appointment with their doctor at what, eight, nine o'clock at night? Because Haley was asleep, Brooke woke her up. Like, no doctor's going to let you in the office of that hour. Well, let's talk about what else no doctor is going to let you do. If you were driving drunk, A, you'd be handcuffed to your bed, which Rachel was not. But also, they would never let her into Cooper's room.

And she's just in there all the time. She's in there all the time. She's in there when he's being defibrillated. Like, the first thing they do is they push for. and family out of the room when there is a code like because you have to do terrible things to humans to like bring them back to life oh yeah what did you because you did a medical show you you did good sam tell us what you learned happens in those rooms oh my god well the first thing i said when i watched you know cooper starts coding and you see people like run past his room but

not into it i'm like it doesn't work like that they run in immediately and start CPR and call for a crash guard. And by the way, like, we had to have had a medical person on set. Whoever let that sweet extra person who was playing the doctor give the worst CPR I have ever seen. I was just like, guys, come on. Empower your actors. Help her. Especially if we're going to be in a hospital every single episode. Like just invest in a team. Just let's make the commitment. Yeah, they bought a hospital. Okay, so that hot for our listeners who don't know, that hospital, that was the first time I think that we had gotten that. We were out of the hospital set in our stages, and they actually bought an old factory.

Do you guys remember what they used to produce there? That's right. And so we took over a side of this factory on the ground floor, and that became our hospital set for the next six years. So, yeah, you'd think they would have gotten as a medical team, too. And it was so weird because you'd go to this factory, and it was like creepy and a little, like, there's just this weird abandoned hallway. energy and then you'd make a right and there'd be sliding doors and you'd be in a pastel hospital with like you know the room where the babies are and the room where surgeries happen it was just like a total it was like a mind warp it was very strange and i just love that when

we're in a hospital setting we don't have to hide our pas because like there's just like people in regular people clothes in the hospital being in the elevator with me For the people at home, we had a PA, I missed it. A production assistant named Lasseter. And she was like a chick, our age, who we partied with after work. And she was one of the only girls on the AD staff. And she is very clearly in the elevator with Sophia the whole time. Oh my God, that's so funny.

I got to go back and watch that. So it's in that moment for you guys at home when Peyton arrives at the hospital hugs Lucas. And then the elevator opens to reveal Brooke. And she sees Peyton and Lucas together again, which is the theme for Brooke in this whole episode, is that, like, you choose her every time. Like, you say you want to be with me, but you actually choose her. You call her, you know, she's the first person you go to. And the, like, visual representation of that, which is such a gut punch for Brooke, was totally ruined for the three of us because we burst out laughing because we saw Lasseter. Oh, my God.

And there was no, well, she had to be there because the. elevator doors, there was no, it wasn't a real elevator. I think it was just doors built into a wall and a hole in the room. And so she would, she had to be there to push the buttons open at the exact right moment. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was like dudes with a pulley. Like I don't even know that it was, it was just like someone with a pulley that would open the doors and then last they would have to queue people. We're ready inside the elevator with her little microphone. She was in there with the walkie talk. That's what she was doing. We also need to talk about unexpected things we don't expect to see our women. doing on screen, be they our

PA's or our actors, I wasn't totally prepared for Peyton to go full Blair Witch with like a fire in her bedroom. Yes. Epic. Setting spells to remove Brooke from her relationship. And guess what, Sophia? It worked.

It worked. But like you going full single white female, like tearing me out of a photo and then gluing you and Lucas back together, killed me, you guys. I remember thinking, we filmed it. Like, do we want to encourage girls to set fires in their room? Like, is that, is that the vibe we're putting out? Also, how did you not set off the smoke detector in your

house? I definitely set a garbage fire in my bedroom before when I was a teenage girl. A gorpe? Oh, my God. Look, if you don't have a cauldron, if you don't have like a heavy bottomed vessel, you're asking for trouble. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. No, I just, my bedroom was a fire hazard when I was a kid. I used to have those old, that old heater that you turn, like, you turned on and it was those coils that went, oh wow. But it was a portable radiator, you know, so like just don't put it near the blankets.

Oh my God. I definitely used to do things like dramatically burn notes or pictures or, you know, and so I, yeah, I would grab the metal garbage can from the bathroom and like do a little ceremony to myself. I definitely once burned a bunch of shit after like something went sideways, but I did it in my backyard. Hey, you should be more vague, Sophia. Backyard.

Yeah. I had a fire once, because something went sideways. It's like, suddenly we're in masterpiece theater. It was a point. But yeah, I did it outside. I was like, I'm going to drag this thing out here, and I'm going to set all this shit on fire, and I'm going to watch it burn. It was very, it did kind of feel like the craft, but it was therapeutic. I'm not going to lie.

That moment was the only, like, accurate teenage moment in the whole episode. Yeah. It's like, legitimately like a girl just being like, I got a bird. this shit today. Like Peyton's strong, I'm done energy. We have to remember. Thanks for the sex. That kills me. Favorite line ever. Somebody put it on a t-shirt and bring it to me. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, burn bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to be coming. television writer because it does feel oddly like very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going

electric that this is something we've been doing for a hundred years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, Or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare, and frankly, bullshit.

We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone. for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make?

Yeah, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We have to remember it's all one day. So, Peyton, like the night before, the... rehearsal dinner or whatever, is like, I'm finally going to admit to Brooke that I like Lucas. And then she comes over and we're like in our bridal dresses still. And Peyton is like crying hard. Like, Brooke, don't leave me.

I love you. I told you first. I'm not. I don't want to be with him. It's, you know, he's all yours. And then this episode happens, which we filmed three months later, but was supposed to be like an exact match. And Peyton's like, you know what? I'm going to burn this shit.

And then I'm going to go to the hospital. I'm going to hug your boyfriend. and then I'm going to go sit on his bed and talk about bans. Like, the turn is so strong. Full defiance. Go for her. Go for her, man. Just take what you want, kid.

Yeah. It's funny. It's funny to see when it is so clear that there are devices that the writers need to move the story along. Like, no, it doesn't make sense that Peyton has that turn in 24 hours. But to your point, we've been off the air. all summer. It's September. We have to like get back in with the drama and, you know, even Joy, you pointed out for Haley. Like, why is she up on that bridge? Everybody's running to the river and Haley doesn't go. And it's like, well, because they liked the shot from the water to the bridge. So they made

you stay up there so that they could keep cutting to that angle. It's just so out of character for Haley. I know, but like looking into the mud on either side of the river, like, wasn't a good looking shot. So like, that's a director's choice. And it's so, I don't know, that's one of the things that's so funny to me doing this when we get together every week and we just go like, oh man, there's so much that goes into the making of every episode of television that doesn't have anything to do with anything other than people's opinions about how television should be made. That was so hard doing that scene for me because of that, because I, my every instinct in me wanted to tear the dress off, run down the side and jump in the water. water. That's felt like that's what I did. But instead, I just had to stand there screaming and running for help and asking other people to do things for me. And I was just saying to you guys, when we were watching the episode, I was like, this is, panic is so unnatural for me. I'm not a

panicker. I go into a fight mode. I get into like, how do we fix it? How do we fix it in the emergency? So the idea of having to just stand there and be panicked, I felt like it's just my worst acting. It's so hard to do. No, joy, but it's not, it's like we were filming it three months later. There's not a limo poking up out of the water. They just yell, action, and you're supposed to look at calm water and be like, okay, I guess we're doing this. And also, didn't we just see Haley, like, kickboxing in the apartment? I know.

This is what I'm saying. It's not a character. She's a tough girl, man. She would have been in the mind. But you're right. It's just that's part of the device that's what needed to be done in order to create the full realm of drama that they needed to get. Yeah.

Well, perfect example of that is the makeover. in Nathan and Haley's apartment where Nathan has a bubble wall now. A wall of bubbles. Where did that come from? Like, can you imagine the tone meeting? You guys, before every single episode, there's a tone meeting where all the heads

of all the different departments get together and the writers and the director and everybody gets together. Like, these are the props we need. This is what we need the sets to look like. And somebody was like, so Nathan's going through some stuff and we really need him.

to see some bubbles. Like an aquarium, but no fish, just bubbles. Yeah. And just shot to get them into. Yeah.

And then what we'll do is we'll put it under a giant mural of the London Bridge because it'll be a reminder of the drowning, but also of all the money they lost on the honeymoon

they didn't have. And they'll talk about it in the scene. That'll do it. There you guys. Let's just hammer it. Hammer it in, folks. It's just occurring to me that we filmed this in the era of SkyMall back when there was the magazine.

So all of our bosses were flying back and forth between Los Angeles and Wilmington all the time. And it just occurred to me that someone got drunk on SkyMall. Ordered that big fucking bubble wall. What do I do with this? Guys, I don't know. I know. Put in Nathan Haley's apartment. Oh, my God.

Bubble wall. I miss SkyMall. I do too, man. I loved that magazine. Yeah. Where am I going to find my big foot statues now? So Brooke gives up on Brooke and Lucas pretty, I don't know, how'd you feel about that? Does it feel like natural to you, that transition? You know what I liked about it?

Because look, I think there's a lot of stuff, you know, to your point, like Peyton turning in 24 hours and going from, I'm really sorry and I'm trying to be a good friend to like, you have sex with your boyfriend. Like, that's intense. I think the swiftness of some of it, you know, from the end of one season to the beginning of another, can feel clunky. What I like that is the through line for Brooke here is that if you think about this as all happening, you know, in the course of 24 hours, she's had this hugely emotional moment at the wedding and said, I need you to need me back. I need you to pick me. Like, I need you to be in this relationship with me in the way that. I'm in this with you. And she has explained throughout season three that she's had to get over trust issues to be here.

She's had to lean into the fact that she loves this person and is going to try. But what I love is the point of maturity she comes to after the big feelings, after the crying, after the heartbreak of, you know what? I'm not even going to hold this against you. You just don't choose me and I'm going to choose me. Yeah. I like that. I love me, but your actions say something else. And I have to go on how your actions make me feel. I have to choose me. Even, you know, because I couldn't really remember what all the scripted dialogue was. You know, there's this big scene between Brooke and Lucas in the bedroom. And eventually when she's talking, they use that device where he kind of can't hear her because he's overwhelmed and he's thinking about what he should say. So it goes into the voiceover that Chad did. in that scene. So I really watched and, like, listened under his voice to hear what I was saying. And it's all the examples of this happens and you don't call me, you call Peyton. This happens. You don't come to me. You go see Peyton. This happens. You don't ask me to come here. When I get

here, Peyton's already here. Like, she's giving him all the reasons. Yeah. And I love that. I love that we're in the era where she's finally beginning to pick herself. Yeah. Because she has said, like I've stopped letting boys to find me. But now she's actually acting that way. And I feel like she did that a bit with Felix too. Do you remember when she was finally like letting go of that? It was like I

I'm trying to remember the conversation that we all had about that because it felt like one of the big brook turning moments of like why I'm doing this because I'm bored or like I just feel like I need attention or but I don't want that. I want to be strong on my own.

And so I don't want to I don't want it. And then she You know, she gets in with Lucas and a lot of those old feelings resurfaced, but it was, it seemed like they were actually, it was just a deeper level of the same feelings. So she had sort of eradicated this like top layer of easy to access feelings and issues with guys like Felix. And then with Lucas, it was like the really deep stuff that, you know, those are the roots of the things that actually keep growing up and creating problems. And so it was like an opportunity for her to really dig down and like pop that root out. For those of you at home you can't see, I'm shoveling. I'm miming a shovel. Stop that root out. We're talking about digging up bulbs here. I like the device of him talking in that scene. I did too. Because, okay, Brooke has had this conversation with Lucas how many times now?

Like a half a dozen times, at least, if not a dozen. And by Chad having that voiceover in that scene, to me, as the viewer, it informed me that every single time Brooke has given him one of these speeches, he's got his own voice in his head and he's not even listening to her. He's just like, oh my God. Fuck, man, how do I get out of this? This seems like a lot. Why can't she just be cool? Like, oh, no, I've messed up again. Ro. But I think that's how boys work. I know, like, that's how my kid works. That's how my husband works. It's just like, are you hearing what I'm saying? We're not going to buy any more Amazon packages. Like, I'm not going to have to deal with this again. Yes. And they say, it's like Lucas at the end, like, I'm sorry.

the only thing they can think to say. I'm sorry. And, you know, they don't hear us, baby. They don't hear us. Yeah. It's okay. I think Lucas did. I think that's, you're right. That's what was nice about that voiceover because he did hear her at the end. It was like, okay, I hear what you're saying. What you've been saying this whole time. And I guess you're right. I get finally clicked that he was like, okay, I guess there's nothing else for me to say here. I can't keep fighting the same bad. all. Yeah. Well, have you ever liked someone? And then they've, they've had to tell you, like, hey, I know you think you like me. Um, you don't. Like, that's a weird interaction. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and by the way, we've talked about this. Like, as kids being so isolated, you know, Hillary, you said it in one of our episodes when you were like, wherever, but everybody was kissing each other, whatever. Like, we joke about it, but there is a real reality that when you grow up in a small town or when you spend 10 years in a really small town like we all did together, you're only around this small handful of people that you're around. So it's why it's

like, you know, you hear people on Facebook talking about like, oh, well, you know, so and so wound up married to that guy. When you remember in high school she dated this guy and he was with her sister, but then he's married to like it's a very common thing in a small place. You just have this tiny pool. And so what, what strikes me now is looking at Brooke and Lucas in this breakup, because she's standing up for herself and her worth, but also saying like, you just don't care about me in the way you think you do and I deserve better. And like, I'm not even going to blame you for it. I'm just going to be done. Yeah. What I think is interesting about it is it, it kind of like models how to have a healthy interaction when you kind of fall in love with one of your best

friends and you try to date and then you go you know what yeah i love you so much we're better as friends and it's cool like people do that yeah sure do well because who else you're going to try and date love me damn it i know but like truly i you know and obviously it's a teen drama there's going to be drama that comes in the coming episodes But it is nice when we get to model, like, decent human interaction and just be like, it's cool. You know, when you love somebody, sometimes you give it a try. And if it doesn't work out, move on and be nice to each other. Like, how lovely.

Such a nice interaction for high schoolers. Yeah. When there is usually so much drama. I mean, high schoolers, people in their 20s, my God, don't we have friends going through this right now? Even still. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional.

It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a massacist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare and, frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together.

Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yeah, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I can see why Lucas is attracted to Brooke, particularly because of this frankness, because we see the exact same personality in his mother, who has to have this very awkward interaction with Dan, who handles it clearly and with Grace.

And she's like, I do not want to have coffee with you because I am giving up coffee in my pregnancy. And I do not want to see a movie with you because I do not want to spend time with you. and I'm not going to be a bitch I'm not going to kick and scream I'm just going to say it clearly to your face you can absorb it however you want and to see the parallel between Brooke and Karen is great

I love that I like that a lot Karen was so clear and so it was so you know Dan looking it was just it was so easy to see through him looking for friendship in her and I love that she saw straight through it

Yeah. Because he goes to strangle his wife five minutes later. Yeah, ew. She knows who he is. And what I really love is that she sees through him in this moment of vulnerability where any of us would excuse her leaning on him for support, not knowing what he's doing to Deb. You know, like if they did that storyline, you'd get it. But she stands up and says, no, thank you. I know you. And then at the end of the episode is so vulnerable with Lucas. I don't, I didn't remember. hearing that when he said how did you get over it that he didn't love you and she said i'll let you know when i do oh i like that took my breath away to be able to be so frank about how a heartbreak of that nature like a betrayal that deep is something you don't get over it changes you and then there's

the before and the after and and it's continually thrown in her face that's a thing. I mean, it might be easier to get over if you could really walk away and never see the person again and move on with your life and have new experiences. But it's just thrown in her face every single day. Even though she knows it's not her, he's a psychopath. It's still, there's just something about not being acknowledged, not being told like, hey, good job. Hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I'm here to help. All of those things. I mean, yeah, that's, yeah, it's hard to just get over. Like, How do you just get over it? You can't.

And when it's continually thrown in her face, when it's continually brought up, when it's shoved at her all the time for 20 years, and no matter how she reacts to it, people tell her she's reacting wrong. Ooh, it's a wild thing to put on somebody. And you know what else? When you're the type of person that continually gives people the benefit of the doubt,

I, because I'm one of those people and I, it can be exhausting when dealing with people who I know are going to let me down as the wrong word because I don't know the concept of expectations and relationships is big, but I know the choice they're going to make. They always make the same choice. It's always going to be the same thing. And yet, I'm still, I'm still surprised when it happens because you can't just let it go. You still are like, maybe this time. Well, the thing is you can't let something go that is continually coming for you, that is forcing you to engage with it, even when you say, I don't want to engage with this anymore.

And it continues to happen. What I think is frustrating, and I know we all have personal experience with this is, look, we're frank, we're blunt. we've learned lessons we share about them we have a podcast like this is what we do hello yeah that's why we're here but then when you when you continually get engaged with on a subject that you want to move on from and then every time you try to well i'll tell a joke about it or maybe i'll offer a nugget of wisdom or maybe you know i'll say like why are you really talking about this and no matter what they tell you the answer's wrong yeah that's hard and so what i think is really cool about this is you get to see it with Karen so often it's her having to deal with Dan and it's she has to

react to him she has to put him in his place she has to rebut his advances but that's why I think that this scene with her and Lucas is so cool because Dan's not there Lucas actually gets to be the safe space for her to say oh no that changed me forever and and and the unsaid thing but that is in Moira's performance because she's such a good actress is I will not like yes it hurt me but like I've drawn a boundary

and it's so yeah I'm not trying to fix it anymore I'm just gonna let it be what it is yeah it's so cool hardest things to do do you wonder if there were years when Lucas was like three four years old

where Karen thought maybe she could still fix it do you know what I mean we don't pick up in the story until the kids are what, 16 years old. And so there's a lot inferred in that statement because it's not like he ditched her at 18 and she never cared again, you know, like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It requires a lot of vulnerability to live in that space of just letting a problem exist and continue to exist. You know what's wild about what you're saying? And I've never thought about this before. But we're kind of being offered.

a version of that, like, look back at what it might have felt like for Karen at 17 to have this happened to her with how Rachel feels with Cooper. Yes. You see the 17-year-old girl sobbing and saying, isn't there anything I can do to keep you? Isn't there anything? Anything I can't live without you. Like, oh, my God. Yeah.

I want to talk about Danielle, too, in this because she had finally, she's finally been given some like real meat on the bones acting in this show whereas she's been expected to do a lot of standing around and being pretty and snarky and you know having a few meaningful sincere conversations but she's never been given the challenge of just really coming undone well she was hired to do comedy beautiful it is it is and she's so that because we've we've praised her for all of her skill in those other areas and it's just so nice to see the full roundedness of her abilities and the vulnerability in this performance.

I mean, her breakdown is so beautiful. And that, that like raw heartache to be vulnerable like that with someone is such a special thing to watch. And yeah, it's so gorgeous. And she feels more like an actual teenager than she's ever felt. Like you see the reveal.

You see why Cooper believed that she was 26. And you see it, she's just 17. Little girl. If anything is supposed to illustrate why teenagers should not be dating grown-ups, it is this. Like, it is because you are not, your brain isn't in the same place. Because for her, it is apocalyptic to be dumped. And for him, he is so, you know, you get older and you realize that all the things you thought were going to kill you aren't going to kill you anymore. And so for him, he's like a breakup.

Okay. like we're good yeah um and yeah this is don't date grownups kids don't do that no because it's so messy and you will be sad you will it's gonna go sideways yeah what i love is as messy as that is and as beautifully as she played that with him i love that the the parallels of these breakups that they're going through are what finally let the brachal of it all beginning to happen. Yeah, that's where I was going next. I love Brooke and Rachel.

I love it. Storming into the room and talking about how horrible the hospital gowns are and we're going to fix everything and here's your keys and I got you some clothes and I was like, oh, I missed this. These two are so fun together. You know, Rachel asked a question to Brooke in that room that I thought was really interesting. Do you think people can really change?

And I don't know. I thought we should talk about that because I, I, I, I, I, I do, but I guess we have to define change. I mean, I think some people can. Just the same way. What change mean, though? Yeah. Is it like just changing your behavior?

Is it like, I mean, you're always going to, if you're good at math, you're always going to be good at math. It's not like, what are the things, the fundamental things that people are referring to when they say change? Well, you know who I think really answers that question beautifully is mouth? Because here's what we know. Look, we're alive at a time where we've got. you know this this generation of all this incredible research and mental health data and we understand

trauma and even how it can be passed down in our DNA you know like we now have proof of a lot of the things people have felt and mouth says it he says you can only change by facing what you've done you really have to look at the things you carry shame about or the people that you've hurt and you have to be willing to go back into those actions, back into the behaviors that you want to change in yourself. And own, but by the way, not only how you might have hurt other people or let yourself down, you also have to forgive yourself. Like, it's a total kind of excavation that's required. And when you go back and you unravel those hauntings, when you go back and you see why you were trying to be validated in the way you were because you had a pain point. When you go back and you

really untangle the knot, you can move forward and have different reactions, not be triggered, not use the same crutches. You know, it's like, it's like for people who get sober. It requires a lot of untangling and then you can live differently. And I love that mouth is like our little oracle in this episode because Brooke has told Lucas what she needs different. what she needs to be different in their relationship, and he hasn't changed. So she's speaking from her own pain point of like, yeah, I kind of thought you could, but I don't think so. And she doesn't quite know what Rachel is asking. She doesn't know Rachel's asking, can I change?

Can I be better? And mouth, it seems to me, really sees through it and says, like, look, you either do the work and then you can do whatever you want or you don't and you'll repeat your mistakes forever. Yeah. Yeah, because he was saying you can change. It's just that most people don't. Yeah, most people aren't willing to do the work. They run from the work. And he says, don't, don't run. It's crippling. I mean, it is crippling that work. It's so scary. It's terrifying. It's no joke. But if you're going to, like, actually make a dent in character flaws that are rooted from childhood, oh, scary. Yeah, but you really, you have to be willing to look at the ways you haven't measured up to your goals or standards. You have to be willing, you know, listen, like, we talk about this as women and what we went through. Like, when women have to go, how did I, in my own actions, you know, how have we collectively, how have we upheld patriarchy? like how have we as women upheld the systems that hurt us as women and how do we excuse them

like oh that's not easy it's why so many people continue to say no no no this thing that i do is the solution this you know this institution that i'm a part of is the fixer it's like so in a way we have to do this we have to do that work you're talking about on a personal level And we have to be willing to understand the way that our personal behavior and the behavior of our communities has to do it on a systemic level. And, like, that is a challenge when people are tired and just trying to figure out, like, how to pay the rent and put food on the table. Like, it's a lot. Change comes from, has to come from a sincere desire. And it's not just because somebody tells you to do it.

And I think you nailed it with having to forgive yourself too. and, you know, being able to look back and that's a big bite to take. Yeah. This is why I still am on team Senator Marvin McFadden, you know? You know those things. He's always known things. He is. He's so wise.

I like that we saw more of the boys in this episode. You can see that they're going to populate our world more with the Rivercourt guys. His mouth is here. Skills is now asking to be on the basketball team. We've got junk with the shaved head. What the hell was Collin doing with the shade head? He had to have another job, right? What job did Cullen have over the summer?

Yeah, 2006, Cullen Moss. Someone tell us what he was up to. I like that they're doing that, you know? So many of our problems have been so adult. And when we're all together as kids, like, we know that we only have, what, two seasons of it left, of, like, being kids. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture.

It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for the kinds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a massacist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why. Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare. And frankly, bullshit.

We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yeah, that's right. Lock her up.

Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Was skills not at the wedding? Was he not there? Because he comes in to talk to Lucas and it's all like, I heard through Bevin. I heard through Bevan. Oh, yeah. Why wasn't he at the wedding?

I don't know. Antoine might have been working on something too. Sometimes it's just scheduling stuff, you know. Yeah, I wonder if he had a job at the end of season three. Also, I'm so excited that we're going to get skills more in our school world. Yeah. see him on the team. Yes, finally. See, my theory is that junk is in community college. Do you know what I mean?

I don't think junk goes to school with us. I think he graduated like three years ago and was the kid that bought everybody beer as a river park. Maybe. You know what I'm saying? Well, especially if the boys all grew up playing together, it's like it's not real life that kids in a neighborhood are all in the same grade. Literally never hung out with kids in my grade. So, you know, yeah, that's my theory. That's my theory I'm sticking to. to it. Yeah, and I like that, you know, if that's sort of the lens we're looking at this through, I also like that Skills talks about how he wants to get on the team because he wants a scholarship. Like, he wants, he wants to be able to go to college. You know, I like the reminder that not all of these kids are affluent. Well, and that, so that was a big conversation this episode. Haley got into Stanford. Like, amazing. Yeah. Lucas has gotten into

what? UNC, but he wants to go to school close by. so he can help his mom with her baby? Like, these are all the conversations that kids legitimately have that are scary. It's even scarier when you don't have a grown-up that is really guiding you. And you're just kind of having to wing it for yourself. Yeah. What is, is Peyton going to college? Do we have, was there a moment where we try to figure that out?

I was always so confused about that. Really? Like, when I was in high school, I was in every single club ever because I was like, I am getting the whole. fuck out of Virginia. I am going to New York City. I'm going to apply to every school in the city and just go to the one that gives me the most money. And that's what I did. Yeah. The idea that Peyton is just like, I don't know, man. I don't know. I might end up in L.A. I might stay here. I don't have a job. Like, has Peyton ever had a job? I don't know. Like, you know, that actually is a great point, Hillary. That's never occurred to me. But it does seem really out of character for

Peyton not to be incredibly driven and have a job. Zero plan. Like, She's like floating around. Well, she's, look, she opened up a club. She did like, she does have this vision with music. So that, okay, that's a big deal. That's a really big deal, actually. So I guess that's her job. I mean, do you think maybe the, I wonder if there's a little bit of that that naturally comes out of a writer's room because everybody who works in our industry got degrees doing things that have nothing to do with the jobs they get. Yeah, for sure. You know? And so I, I I wonder if maybe it's less top of mind. But then they're talking so much about it for the other kids. I don't know. It's a really, it is really weird. Peyton should have joined Peace Corps. You know what I mean?

Like, my best friend joined Peace Corps and went to Morocco for a while. That would track. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Trying to help people. That would have landed. And, like, no one, did anyone join the military?

Did anyone? I'm just trying to think of where the kids that I grew up with actually did. I don't know. And I don't know your brother was, right, Derek, not Derek, the real Derek, not Psycho Derek, was a Marine. Yeah, he was a Marine, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. It's a weird, it's a weird deal that Peyton was like absolutely directionless given she's raised herself, essentially.

Well, and that her father is so. Work, work, work. Yes, but also so involved. Like when he gives you advice, he seems, that education seems like one of the, one of the, core dad things to communicate. Yeah, that feels like Larry energy. It's weird. I could see like Peyton going to vocational school, right?

Like if Peyton had gone to learn how to run a soundboard or like, like, you know, we had Votech when I was growing up and it was all how to run a camera and there was the beautician school and there was like electrician school. Payton could have gone to Votech. That would have been cool. What would she have done? What would you want to paint to do? When I was growing up, there were the kids that would leave school halfway through the day to go to Votech,

and they learned how to run camera equipment and soundboards and, like, do film for the local cable access station. And I thought that was the coolest shit ever. Like, number of cable access TV? You know, Peyton's running this webcam. She should absolutely be going and getting a, you know, a vocational degree somewhere. It is weird. But I like hearing the different levels of college interests from our kids. You know, like Haley's shooting for the moon with Stanford.

And she did it. It's awesome. Lucas is going on the merit of his academics. And then skills is just like, no, listen, I will go to any school there is. But I just, I want to get out. I want to try my hand at this. That felt accurate. Does Brooke talk about college?

What did Brooke do? I don't think she does. I mean, she's so focused on design that, I think that... Does she go to, like, FIT or something? I don't remember. Because we skip it. That's the thing. We skip college.

So I don't remember if she says she's going... But somewhere, I feel like she just goes to New York and does her line. That's all anybody was talking about senior year. Besides who was sleeping with each other. It was where are you going to college? what school are you trying to get into that's really funny that we never it just is barely on all of our radar

except for the guidance counselor episode we did have one entire episode dedicated to serious business counselor walking us through that oh you know Peyton did talk about college once she was looking at the school in Savannah so had she stayed with Jake Jigalski she would go to college see her family makes sense with Jake

I mean now what am I going to do which boy am I going to follow now Wow. Nathan, let's talk about Nathan for a second because he's clearly dealing with some serious PTSD and I think we're all a little unclear

like what this bad dream means but it has been literally bubbling up for two episodes. Pardon the pun, bubbling. Say what I did there. What the fuck is going on? I don't know. I feel like I miss something.

It's very tricky because obviously like nearly drowning and nearly losing family members in an accident like that would of course be traumatic. What I think smells a little fishy to me is that he's having these flashbacks that are like mysterious and unexplained. But it seems like the device is everyone's telling him he's a hero and he doesn't think he is. He is beginning to communicate that he was drowning and scared and then you see Cooper open his eyes and it's like did Cooper actually rescue everyone? And even if that's true, why would we shame a teenage boy about that? Like I'm just confused. Oh, I didn't take it that way. I don't know. I just think like what are what are they getting at?

Like what are they going to reveal? And and and why why does he seem to recoil at you're a hero and then flashback to being trapped, like, I'm just like, what's going on here? Like, this was scary and horrible. Well, and they, but it wasn't just flashbacks. He had had visions of this before the wedding even happened. Wait, he did? Yeah, that's right. That's right. Oh, I forgot about that. The dream. He was having, so this is, it's been going on for a while, guys. And he's just having, he's realizing he's psychic. He's got water trauma. And I don't understand the water trauma. Yeah. You know, I think it's reasonable to say that Nathan's got PTSD and that teenage boys who experience trauma are not treated. You know, they're rewarded for being real tough about it. But they're not treated as like vulnerable little animals. But I don't, yeah, I just don't understand the water device. And they keep coming back to it over and over. And it's like the only thing they're giving James to do. So maybe that's why it feels weird to me. I'm just like, what is going on here? What are you getting at?

Well, we're going to find out. I bet they'll tell us soon. I mean, maybe, or it could disappear into the mist. It's tree hill joy. We don't get, you know. Don't get your hopes. Yep. I was going to say, okay, last question.

Peyton finds out she has a long-lost sibling. If you were to find out that you had a long-loss sibling, who would you hope it would be? Oh gosh I don't know You want like a celebrity name or like a You want like a celebrity name or like a like a sports figure Or like some kind of political

I mean you could tell us about someone we don't know But then I'm just going to have like way more questions You're going to be like It's this chick Sally You guys don't know her but I really want her to be my sister That's right My barista let me tell you Oh I love that

Yeah Ooh, who would be cool to have an... I kind of want an older brother, I guess. I feel like I always wanted an older brother. I feel like that would have solved a lot of my problems with men if I had an older brother. I feel that strongly as well. Like, I see Gus with George, and I'm like, that looks cool. Like that seems like a nice relationship.

Yeah, it's funny. The person who immediately popped in my head made me laugh, and I was like, oh man. Like, you know, it's November 1st. We're eight days from the midterm elections concluding. I'm obviously very stressed about it. And I was like, oh, this is hilarious. Like the first person who popped in my mind was Adam Kinsinger. And I'm like, what I would give to have like a dope older brother who's like leading the charge for democracy and like fighting back.

But who technically comes from the other side of the aisle. Like, wouldn't that be so healing for people? And you would have someone to talk to. At like Thanksgiving dinner, you would have a buddy. You guys would just be out in, like, the courtyard. No, I just admire him so much. And, like, as a dad and as a veteran and as, you know, somebody who's done what he's done on the committee, you know, for January 6th, like, he just shows up and is like, what are we doing about America? And I'm like, that's exactly how I feel, sir.

Yeah. And it's like, that would just be so cool. And then as soon as I saw his face When you asked the question I started laughing at myself I was like oh my God I need to rest I think I had a first reaction too

But I didn't say it I kind of have a huge girl crush on Kate Middleton And I would love What? Joy you know she's a huge one true fan That's what we were told I don't know We're going to need someone to validate that

You don't remember I just like I love her so much I will literally I just like, I look at her fashion. Like I scroll on Instagram and I'm like, look how great. She's such a great dresser. Oh, she's such a good speaker. It's like, it's like the girl and me, the Jersey kid that always felt scrappy and like,

I'll meet you in an alley and Terry a one from one. And I could like, you know, I can like clean up and get in the dirt. And then I look at a woman like that and I'm like, wouldn't it be so nice to be elegant? God, that must be so lovely. What if like she is a nightmare in her own little castle? Like, what if that is all just smoking mirrors? And she is sweatpants City, Joy. That's the version I want to see.

I bet she is. I bet she is. We can send her a juicy suit. I bet she would have great in a juicy suit. Listen, all I was saying is, I can't remember who told us back in the day. But, like, we did get the word when we were doing the show that she was a big fan. So, Joy, it might not be out of reach for you. Hey, call me up, Kate.

Hillary, who's your person? Um, when I was young, I really wanted RuPaul to like be my older brother. Like that was, I was really like, I just, I just thought about like all the holidays you have to do with your family and all of the, like, moving and like hard things. Like there's a hard shit you have to do with your family. And I just thought, what would make all of these experiences better? And it was Rupert. That was the answer. Yeah, dude.

Okay, I didn't grow up with Rupal, but what I can say is that, you know, growing up in L.A. where I did and, like, all the, all the creative folks I got to work with at my dad's studio, I have not, like, an actual uncle, but, you know, a dear family friend of my parents who's been my uncle Jeff for my whole life. It's just, like, fabulous makeup artist, was like, always doing shoots with my dad. And so, you know, I'd go visit at the studio. Oh, man. All of them. And I would like go visit at the studio after school and like go say hi to everybody. And I was always so excited to see Uncle Jeff. And he'd be like, don't tell your parents you want me to put some eyeliner on you. And I was like, yes, of course. And Jeff's partner, Winston, I mean, God, they've been together for like 40 years now. Winston did drag every weekend as Diana Ross. Just this like stunningly beautiful black man who would do the full, I mean, the wigs and the glitter like the outfits. Everything more fun, right? Oh, my God. So, like, I didn't grow up with RuPaul, but I did grow up with a drag queen.

And let me tell you what, everything was so much more fun. Yeah, great. Like, so much more fun. Thank you for validating that inner gut feeling that I've had all these years. You know what would make this better? Drag. It would. It makes everything better.

You guys, I had to go to a memorial the other day, and I passed a drag bar. Why are they not drag queens running moving companies? Exactly. Babe, drag movers? My God. Hello? Seriously. The funnest moves of your life.

Or just like rent a date so I can take you to functions with me. I had to go to a memorial the other day, and I was really, really, really upset about it. And Jeff and I got out of the car a few blocks away and we're walking to the venue and we passed this drag bar. And it was just joy out on the sidewalk. It was everyone was singing together. Everyone was dancing. There were so many feather boas. It was glamour, glamour, glamour.

And it put such a huge smile on my face. And I was just like, this is the energy I want everywhere. More drag, please. More drag, please. Can we get Rupal on the show? Can we speak that into existence? I think he, let's talk about who is an honorary drama queen. It's Rupert.

Please. Hello? Absolutely. Absolutely. I just got sweaty at that suggestion. Like, I was surely. Okay, guys, for our listeners at home, any of you who work. who work on drag race and or have friends who work on drag race, please DM us.

Call us. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind of a year. you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories,

such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn SageBurn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why?

Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Well, we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare and, frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make?

Yeah, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's Bethany Frankel. My time on the Real Housewives of New York is a few years behind me, and now I'm ready to put the reel back into the Real Housewives. That's where my new podcast, ReWives, comes in. This isn't your typical rewatch podcast. I'm watching only the most I can. episodes from all cities, I'm sharing never before heard stories of what happened behind the scenes.

And I'm not just pulling in cast members for postgame analysis. I'm doing something a little more interesting. If you've ever seen an episode of The Real Housewives, you know the drill. But beyond throwing drinks and legs, there are lessons about marriage, divorce, friendship, money, parenting, and fame. If you have the right minds analyze and dig deeper. So I'm bringing on unexpected thought leaders and celebrities to give their take on the chaos. This season, I sit down with Elizabeth Moss, Kevin Neillan, Susie Orman, Griffin Johnson, and more. You'd think that there isn't much to learn from flipping tables and yanking wigs, but that's where you're wrong.

Listen to Rewives with Bethany Frankel on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. We have a fan question. Okay. Hey, Linnea. She says, do you feel like Lucas and Peyton's kiss after she was shot, betrayed Brooke? Oh, God. um no she thought she was going to die i don't even think she thought she was going to die i think it's just

it's uh it's trauma bonding right it's like yeah yeah i'm scared i'm so so so scared right now i would kiss anybody literally yeah if i thought i you know yeah i guess i probably would too yeah yeah i mean sophia's like no that's fucked up no no no because you know I was going to say. I was going to say, I think there's levels of how we judge. And like, yeah, look, I think base, you shouldn't kiss your best friend's boyfriend. I think that's true. Bad look. I also think about the circumstance. I also think about the need for drama on a TV show because if all the characters are happy all the time and never have conflict, you're going to do three episodes and get canceled. So it's like there's a bunch of that. And I think, I think this kind of relates to what we were saying before. about how you really have to look in and do the work. And, you know, I would hope for our Peyton that she could go, yeah, that wasn't my best moment. And also, I'm going to give myself a shit ton of grace.

I thought I was going to die. Like, I can apologize and also not move through my life carrying that guilt. And both of those things can be true. And my fear is that we, you know, so much of our life happens in 2D now. Like, everything's on a screen. Everything's a flat picture. Everything. We want everything to be black and white and nothing is.

And so it's like, I think we need to ask questions like this, but I think we need to give ourselves permission and to not be so reductive to just have like a yes or no answer. I think we have to realize that if we want to grow, a whole bunch of things can be true at the same time. She can be sorry and not deserve to be punished and be forgiven. She loves being punished. Who are you kidding? Oh, that's for a different conversation. That feels like late on my talk.

Here's also the thing. The characters on our show are so bad at further explanations. Like, you hear the word kiss, and it's like, you guys made out for seven hours. Yeah, you hooked up. Right, right, right. No, literally, it was like the shortest, driest peck kiss on the planet. Through tears. Like, it wasn't sexy.

It was, it was sobbing. In Brooke's mind, she's like, you guys kissed? Your tongue's touched. That's ridiculous. Yeah. Our characters are not good at follow-up questions because it was the same thing when, like, Haley and Chris Keller kissed. Like, in Nathan's mind, he's like, you guys kissed? And then we see it and we're like, guys, open your mouth.

Is that the name of this episode? Open your mouth. Open your mouth. Oia, yo. Disgusting. You guys, I'm telling you, we're getting into, we're getting into after-hours talks. We should spin a wheel. We got to, yeah, let's, let's save ourselves.

Yeah, let's get out of here. There's not, there's not even alcohol involved in this one today. There's not. It's morning. It's morning. It's morning. Okay. Oh.

Who is most likely to completely lose it on a roller coaster? Does that mean lose it with glee or terror? Barf. Like it's terror and barfing. Yeah. So who, who's, who's the chicken of the bunch is my? I feel like Skills has some surprising fears. I feel like I can see him getting really nauseous on a roller coaster.

But he closed them up just to get like Bevin's attention. Like he's like, he's like, act scared. So she'll protect me. It's Dan, the loss of control. Yeah, that, I mean, like, when I think about, sensations I don't like in amusement parks. That Hollywood Tower of Terror, I don't like the feeling of falling. And yeah. And so I can see Dan, like a personality like Dan being like, I don't want to be in this chair. I don't want to be in this chair. Give me the fuck out of this

chair. That makes sense. Yeah. But wait, does that mean it's me in real life? No, guys, I'm cool. I don't freak out. I'm fine. I swear to God, don't look at me. Who was the last roller coaster? you went on. I don't really go on. I don't know. So I did the cyclone of Coney Island when I was 19, and that thing's like 8,000 years old and really, it's like super rickety.

And I was in the last cart of it that constantly feels like it's going to go off the tracks. And it could be different in the 20 years since I've done that. But I'm not convinced that roller coasters are well cared for. And I, that's not how I want to go, guys. I had a phase where I just, like, really loved them. And I think being a kid in Southern California, it was like so easy to go to Universal or Six Flags. Like, everything's close. Yeah.

And I don't know. Remember years ago there was like some amusement park, I think, on the East Coast and that lady got decapitated. Yeah. You know what? I think I'm good. I don't think I'm done. Literally my business partner, Liz, produced the documentary, Class Action Park. And I'm like, oh, God.

hour of it. I do not. Yeah. Or when they get stuck upside down. Yeah. No. Something clicked for me where I'm like, when you do something that is considered to be more dangerous than just like walking through the world on a daily basis.

And you've done it so many times. Like you got maybe even like a little addicted to the adrenaline. And you were fine so many times. Like maybe you're good. You were jumping out of airplanes and Sophia. I was real frustrated with that. I was like, why is she tempting fate? I, like, if I was stressed, I'd be like, you know what I'm going to do?

I'm just going to drive an hour and jump out of an airplane because something happens when you do that and everything like clicks back into place. And then I was like, I could go for like a hike or meditate, like in the safety of my own home. I just, I did it so many times that I was like, I'm not going to push my luck anymore. I'm good. Yeah. Yeah, there's something about tempting fate. I don't know.

I had a boyfriend get really upset with me once because he had planned a son. Rise, hot air balloon ride. No. In a basket. In New Mexico. It was going to be gorgeous. But I was like, I can't, like, I'm a single mom. I'm like, I'm the only one, like I can't, like, I can't. Like, I can't die. You don't understand. I actually can't die right now. I grew up in a house that was like, everything's going to kill you.

Everything's going to kill you, including roller coasters, including hot air balloons, including jumping out of an airplane. Don't be ridiculous. Read a book. Don't be ridiculous, read a book, is what I want the book fair at my eventual children's school to be called. Don't do it. All right, well, that wheel triggered some stuff. Thanks a lot, Will. What's going on next week? Next week, guys.

Oh, man, I don't know what to expect with this title. Season 4, episode 2, Things I Forgot at Birth. We really do have this theme of having to go back and examine our shit. I guess we're in for a ride and we'll see you guys We'll see you there Bye See you bye

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. From Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries, this is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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