Drama Queens - And…Action! ᐧ EP616

Episode Date: April 15, 2024

This episode was Joy’s directorial debut! As you can imagine it involved a whirlwind of emotions as well as a fine line of learning on the fly, while not rocking the boat…too much. There was quite a lot of real-life imagery happening too, with a lot to be proud of, but also some relatable meltdowns. Find out why the girls call this the best episode of the season.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. Smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl.

Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Guys, this was the best episode of the season. Hands down, best episode of the season so far. Like, I love this episode so much. Enjoy you as the director fucking crushed it. You crushed it. Thanks, babe. I had so much fun.

It was a good one. It's such a fun episode. And I think, like, having you direct it as well, because we were all having these really surreal experiences being faced with our own characters. I think it added such a realism to the comedy because we were six years into not really being able to be out in the world without being met by people who knew us from TV

in the way that our characters were being met by these people who thought they knew us either from a book or a breakdown and I was like, oh my God, it's so crazy. And people who were identifying with us, they were like, I'm such a Brooke, I'm such a Peyton, I'm such a movie. Dude. Now we've got room for it. full of them. So funny.

I loved it. No, you were the only person that could have directed this. It was, it was so meta and so weird. Give us the rundown. What's the breakdown you got at the beginning? I got season 6, episode 16, Screenwriters Blues, air date February 2nd, 2009. Lucas wrestles with casting for his movie while Peyton tries to prepare for their future. Dan advises Jamie on a school crush. Brooke meets the actress who will play her

my favorite so this is so fun while Nathan gets exciting news and Haley has to make a tough decision at school there was a lot packed into this I directed it and it was written by Mike Harrow and David Strauss everybody had storylines yeah everybody had something to do

we should have done that all the time even Vaughn showed up like brought him in again which it's been a while since we'd seen him it was great everybody had a little something yeah loved it I didn't even bring my notes down here to the office because I was like I don't need the notes I love this so much. And I remember, I'll be honest, I remember being a little bit nervous because Chad had

directed, but you were directing and I was like, oh no, is this an opportunity to like talk us out of the ticks that we'd all developed after six years of doing this show? I was like, is this going to be the time I find out that like Joy really hates when I deliver a line this way? Or I make like this dumb face. Or I didn't know how it would feel to be directed by a. female peer. Like the boys we were always kind of separate from. But I was like, oh, no. And instead, it turned into this opportunity where you could feel there were some things in the script that were kind of cheesy. And you found a way to make those moments really funny and like, like play with the dialogue in a way that just felt really collaborative and good. You did it in the

scene with you in Lucas. You did it in the scene with you and me. Like the cheesy lines became punch lines. Like what else do children get into? Your heart. Your heart. Yes. Oh, God. That's exactly the line I'm thinking of. And I think that's part of why I love the way the dynamics feel in the episode so much

is because we were all making decisions. Like, you were leading a female perspective to make choices. And so we all got to be the team that normally, to your point hill, were up against. Like it would normally be one of us or two of us, occasionally three of us together in a scene, being like, girls don't talk like this. And having a guy, you're like, it's on the page, you have to do it. And it says right here she's emotional or she's crying or whatever.

And we didn't have to follow any of those rules with you because you were sick of following those rules too. And what I sort of love is that not only do we get to clearly have more fun, but also all the stuff that I was worried that we were getting made fun of for, like the episode opens on a Nathan and Haley and she's in the poncho and it's like, oh, God, how many, how many hits are the writers going to take at us because they get to make fun of our characters? And instead, it was like, oh, yeah, well, all the boys will be shirtless because that's what you guys try to do to us. And all the boys are going to snap and not be able to handle the pressure and we're all going to be cool. Like, it just, it flipped the dynamic in a way that was really fun to watch. And, I don't know. I felt like, I felt like we got some good shots in at what we were dealing with behind the scenes. And I loved it. Yeah, totally. Yeah, it was a, it was a really nice space for us to be able to throw in those shots in a way that felt fair and totally believable in within the context of the story. Yeah. And then it still wound up being funny, right? Like, yeah. We still got that comic relief, even though Nathan sits and goes, you know, why am I not wearing a shirt?

Like, what's going on here? Weird, right? And then you still get Brooke walking into, like, you know, a sea of dudes that are built, like, fitness models and being like, oh, my God, you know, a human would. So it wasn't like it was all one-sided. But I don't know. It just, it felt, it felt ripe. Right.

How early did you get the script? A week and a half, maybe two. What? It was, like, pretty, pretty fast. there was a week of prep so it was it was a lot thrown at me and if it had not been our show

I don't know how I wouldn't have been able to do it I mean we had our there was so much of it that was just a well-oiled machine our crew knew exactly what to do I mean I was there for quality control and sort of guidance of my

vision and opinion of how how to shape things but the clay was basically molded we'd been doing that for so long So it wasn't an incredibly tall order from that point of view. But you guys, I remember being really generous and patient with me as I was learning. It was the first thing I'd ever directed. And to come in and direct people who I respect.

And I know what great performers you guys were. And I didn't want to create tension or like make something. I don't know. I just didn't know what to expect. I knew that we would all be respectful, but, like, I wanted to make it good, and I didn't want to put my foot in my mouth or step in it or hurt anybody's feelings or whatever and still try and create space. Is that your best? Chad's the only person I could ever say that to, and he would just, you know, it was like somehow I got away with it with him. Well, same. That's why I was like, when Chad directed, I've always been able to be really frank with Chad because that's just the.

dynamic of our relationship it was different when it was like a peer that I I felt closer to you know what I mean like it's having I don't know it's a weird thing where pushing back feels dangerous if it's someone that you care about because you're like oh no how are we going to navigate this well and we were all in it together as a cast obviously and and you know joy for you and for Chad directing for the first time this year, it's not just that you're saying to a director, like, I don't know that I necessarily agree with this because, fill in the blank, six years of backstory with your character, but you're looking at your friend that you know is nervous. Because this is a really big deal, and you're like, you might not remember that last year

my character did this, but I remember, and I don't know how to say this to you in a way where it will not feel personal and I really don't mean to stress you out. I have a thought. Like, just the panic of like, I don't want to hurt your feelings. It's like such a real thing. And I don't think we felt that. Even with the directors we were friends with, we didn't feel that with other directors because they were all, you know, older than us. And they'd been doing this for a long time. And I, it's funny you saying that, like, my chest feels tight, like, in a sweet way of like, I just want to make sure you're okay, but also I want to be okay. And how do we do this together? It's such a big professional leap that we all, you know, took.

on these journeys, I felt the weight of responsibility of that, that it, like, I, even looking back now, I mean, I think we, I don't know, I don't know exactly how the old adage, like, the quote is, but basically, like, everybody already knows what their biggest problems are, and they're, like, what their flaws and faults are. And, like, looking back, I, I know that my stubbornness in particular was, like, probably my worst flaw, like, personal character flaw at the time. So, so stubborn. When I saw something and I thought it needed to be a certain way, like, that was it. I really had a hard time getting around it. Part of it was the ADHD, but some of it was just like, there was a lot of it. It was just other stuff. We've learned so much about

brains in the last 20 years. I know, I know, right? But whatever. So it's just, that was just where I was in life. But so the weight of responsibility of wanting to be open and get over that thing that I knew was my my flaw of being so stubborn when I would see something a certain way and trying to be able to listen and then and then change it and improvise at the last second because somebody else had a different idea and you want to be open to that like I learned so much I learned so much on this episode and with you guys in particular it was really it was a really cool experience and you were all so generous it's a perfect episode I think whatever you did you did it right because it is a perfect episode there wasn't a single scene where I was like

When's this over? Usually there's like a couple snoozer scenes per episode. This one was like all the hits. It was a whole CD of the hits. The secret is keep the camera moving. That's it. You just keep it moving as much as you can. If there's anything that feels slow, just keep going.

Eventually it all just blends together like one long music video. But that's actually, that's how it felt. The transitions from scene to scene really felt smooth. You know, we talked a bit in the past about, just recently, about how our episodes felt kind of disjointed. Like Sophia was on a horror movie and I'm doing, you know, baby boom and like everybody was doing different shit. And this really felt cohesive and cool.

And not only did you have to deal with your core players, but you had like, you know, James Vanderbeek is here. Austin's here. You have all of these doppelgangers here. It was the episode of doppelgangers here. It was. It was fun. was really fun. Well, let's get into it because I loved this, I loved these storylines. The fake

Brooke was, I just, I just could not stop smiling every time the two of you were on screen together. It was so fun. It was so, so fun. Because being able to make choices, you know, with another actor who was like, essentially we talked about it and the idea was anything I did, she'd do. And so we really leaned into it. like the the literal mirror image of physicality, screaming, hugging, yelling, it's such good comedy. And I think you make a really good point, Hill. Part of the reason it works so well in the structure of this episode is because this whole episode is a rom-com. Even the serious stuff, you know, Joy, your storyline with Ashley, the Haley and Sam and the school dynamic, it still essentially works in a rom-com structure. It's somebody saying, hey, you're really great and I'm here

to support you. Yeah, wholesome and uplifting. Yeah, it's a platonic energy, obviously, with a student and a teacher, but it's still very sweet and kind and loving. And so instead of having, you know, one person getting accosted by a stalker and another person trying on baby clothes, it's like the cohesion in the episode really works. And I don't know, I think it allows for some of that comedy to play even bigger, which, you know, Carissa and I got to do together. Yeah. Well, this was a whole episode about casting. How much did you play a part in the casting? Because that's what I want to know before we talk about, like, the actual stories. Yeah, I think I, I remember playing a pretty big part in casting. I mean, I was there for all. I saw the tapes. I saw, um, was I in the room.

for any of them I don't know if I was in the room I can't remember but I did see a lot of tapes and definitely handpicked

Alexandra who played eventually played Peyton um uh huh Carissa I feel like maybe had already

I had been picked by producers or something there was I feel I feel like that um Allison Munn was who played

Miss Lauren that was her first episode with us And Allison and I had done a play together in L.A. We did The Outsiders, the musical. And she was Cherry Valance. And I was Sandy, girlfriend of Soda Pop or somebody. So that was really fun to bring her in.

I think all the boy, yeah, everybody else, I think I just kind of watched tapes. I felt really protected in the meta-casting of this episode because there's that whole conversation. Yeah, there's this whole conversation of like, do we cast the hot chick, do we cast the boobs, do we cast, you know, like, what are we casting for? And so the girl that ultimately became Peyton in the table read, I loved her.

Like, I just loved, like, watching how innocent she was and how, I don't know, there was, like, a really protective nature to that. She felt so much like Peyton season one to me that there was an innocence, there was a softness, that could easily have a hard exterior, but she was, it's that same sort of like Michelle Williams quality. Like there's a sensitivity there that is so deep, like the well is so deep.

Really good actress. I don't know what she's been doing since then, but she's good. And the Nathan character too. Like he was, oh, he was so little. Like he was just a kid. They seemed so young. Yeah, how weird. to cast within a casting storyline.

It was weird, super weird. But I think it was fun to be able to do that from my end because I know you guys so well. Like, I kind of wouldn't have wanted anybody else to come in and make those choices. I would have wanted only one of us to be able to do that because we all knew each other. Somebody else coming in would have, I wouldn't have trusted their judgment. You're ultimately Lucas in the episode. Yeah. Oh, because I'm making all these decisions.

Yeah. Yeah. I know. Part of the metaness that I really appreciate is, you know, Mike Harrow and David Strauss wrote this episode. And Mike Harrow was one of the guys who really grew up with us, like, on the show. You know, he, I don't remember if he was a writer's assistant or just, like, you know, one of the junior writers when the show started. But Mike was one of the people who, especially in later seasons, I know really had our

backs. And there were things that he shared to protect us and to, like, illuminate certain things. You know, he shared a lot of things with me in later years, you know, Hill, even after you left, that I hadn't known that, like, I really cherish him for, because that was a risk for him. And there's things happening in this episode where I'm like, oh, wow, you were really brave because he wrote James Vanderbeek to say some exact things that our boss had said to us that were gross and horrible and you get to see how gross it is and you get to see that he's taking shots at this guy being like this is how you treat people and this is how you talk to women and this is how you're trying to cast your show and oh it's so balzy man it's so balzy to hold

the mirror up. Yeah. He really did it and I was like, whoa, you know, even that a lot of it got through. And, you know, maybe some of that is when you think you're all powerful, you know, your ego makes you think no criticisms will ever get through. But it kind of took my breath away. And I thought he did it so smartly in that he jumbled up who the boss said what to. But some of those things really came out of our boss's mouth. And I went, oh, and I was like, oh, yeah, you just get to see how totally inappropriate and disgusting it is. And there's no, there's no defense for it. It's really nice to watch the scenes play out. Yeah, because he's so gross, like, oh, so gross. I mean, Vandrebeek is great. He does it really well. But what I love about Vanderbeak is he,

he really commits as an actor and he's like, oh, you want me to be slimy? Watch this. And you're like, thank you. He doesn't judge his characters and it was very important that that character was portrayed honestly. I was impressed. And that he's not he's not far-fetched. Like that is literally how we were being spoken about. It's how day players on our show were spoken about in front of, and spoken to. And there was no mustache twisting. He wasn't being a villain. He was being like a normal, quote-unquote,

nice, likable guy who just happens to say some gross things, you know, on the offset, and then it just the closer you get, the ickier it gets. Because it's funny. Yeah, but he didn't seem like he wasn't trying to be dastardly or, you know, awful. He was just being, he was being real, oh, which is so gross. But it's so, I got to say, like, there's something, you know, all of us having been through it, there's something I really appreciate about watching it and how we didn't pull. back from it and how it was Vanderbeek essentially portraying our boss who was being written

by one of the writers who'd been with us the whole time, who'd heard all the stories, who told us a lot of what was happening in the writer's room in L.A., and that you were directing it, and by the way, directing it with our crew who'd been there for so long, you know, that all these people have relationships with. Like, our camera crew came from Dawson's. So even if you think about it that way, our DP, we know, was able to say to Vanderbeak, like, yeah, this is what these girls are going through. And just, I don't know, like, the four of you somehow making this stuff get from the page to the screen. It's like, Captain Planet shit. Yeah, it's like, I feel like we got away with something in a way to be like, you want to know what it was like?

It was like this, but worse. Yeah, the irony of our boss creating this whole storyline and then having it. get used exactly against him in the way that's pretty great I mean you really can't write this stuff even though you can apparently like there's so much about it that wasn't

great but this is great yes well it made it so easy to side eye beak like each one of us had a moment with him where it was like uh-uh we don't want this like whatever you are pass yeah which hard pass feels redemptive

It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for the kinds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history.

On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. to burn sage burn bridges on the iHeart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts the one thing though in the beak storyline you know now that you're bringing up mike crafting this thing and really touching on some of the stuff that was actually going on the thing that i found most triggering in this episode was julian and his complacency

with the way the book was being depicted because I don't necessarily mind a bad guy. My biggest trigger in life is a coward. Like, cowards infuriate me in a way that's probably not normal. And the cowardice of Julian to let that breakdown go out and then try to, like, spin it later, irritated the shit out of me. I couldn't deal with all the other men in the room

going along with that personification of, Brooke. It really bugged me. Yeah. And the thing is, by the way, fully agree. And it is one of those moments where I can see why it's necessary because it is the device. It is what makes, as Brooke and Missy are spending time together, what makes them, like, in the way they meet perfectly, then they start having these near misses. You need the confusion. I liked getting to, you know, stand up for myself. Because it also felt very meditative. me in that, you know, I have felt that way, and we've talked about it on the show. Like, it was really hard for me coming on to the show and then receiving treatment in

public and being like, oh, people think I'm this promiscuous person like Brooke Davis, which, by the way, have sex with as fewer as many people as you want. I don't actually care about that. What I care about is the way we treat women differently if we believe. they are sexual. And it was really scary for me, like growing up in a mostly all-girls school environment, I did three years of a co-ed college.

And then I came on this show, and I was like, what is happening? Well, like, why are people talking to me this way in public? Why do people touch me in public? And I watched them not touch other people. Like, it was very hard for me. And so what I loved in this episode was getting to say things that I had said then

and that I say sometimes now where I'm like, of all the cool shit I have done, as a woman, you want to talk about who I dated or what dips shit cheated on me or who I figured out wasn't who I thought they were? Like, that has to do with other people's bad behavior. Like, I've done this cool thing. I've been this advocate.

I've built this company or nonprofit or whatever. Why don't the things women do matter more? That's reductive. Yeah, than the way other people treat us or want to sleep with us. And so I don't know in the way that I loved that Beak personified our boss being gross. I loved that I got to sort of vent about my own experience and experiences, by the way, that I know you've both had where it's like you, that's the thing you want to ask me about in my whole big life. And so I don't know.

There's a, I hated, obviously, that Julian was a coward because I'm like you and cowardice triggers the fuck out of me. Yeah. because we always had to stand up for ourselves and I get annoyed when people with more power don't but I did like it as a writing device because I liked that I got my moment to be like how dare you and then I got to say it to Missy and I got to say it to Julian and I was like yeah I'm

Brooke Davis is a badass women are badasses leave me alone and I sort of I loved the payoff even if I hated him having to be a little bitch to get me there well no one not everyone's born with a backbone right like some people some people's story is that they grow one. And so if Julian is growing a backbone, neat, I love that he FedEx's yearbook.

FedEx is a yearbook. Super cool. Guys, have we ever been in a situation where we had to FedEx our yearbook to the location we were at? He really wanted to make that point. He was like, I need you to see the butt cut that I had. in 1998.

The butt cut. What a term. And Brooke gets to go home after all of it. And the relationship she has with Sam, it's like, I love that. In spite of all of the stuff that's being thrown at her,

she just gets to go home and continue to do what really makes her her, investing in the people that she cares about, building up this young woman. It's like, that's what we do. just go ahead keep throwing it at me i'm i'm gonna just keep being me and brook does that

non-stop in this episode i just see her it's it's so fun to watch her or you whatever like dealing with all of the stuff coming at brook and then just being like but you know what this is what really matters and that's what i'm gonna focus on that's what makes her so great and lovable well all the girls had that storyline this episode it was like hey Haley, you're going to lose your job. Hey, Peyton, you're on your own, kid. Hey, Brooke, you're a whore forever. You know, like, everybody had these things,

and the women just had to be fine. And then Lucas got to have a temper tantrum. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? I did feel that with Peyton, though. I was just watching you at the fireplace, I was like, I feel that. Like, how many times, I would be a millionaire

if I had a quarter for every time I had to, suck it up swallow it down I'm yeah I'm good everything's great great call me later

yeah I'll be here you broke my heart I do everything's fine hormones are real though I don't know how much I realized that

when we filmed this you know you say words that are on the paper and you're like and then you know a year later I was pregnant for real

I guess, yeah, if this aired February 2nd of 2009, I had Gus March of 2010. Yeah. And all of a sudden, all that hormone shit. This was like a premonition. This was practice. The hormone stuff is super real. And even now in our early 40s, girls, I'm going to cry on a dime. I walk around.

Yeah. I walk around like 40% ready to cry at all times. And it's just a matter of what the trigger is going to be. And that crib, I could feel. I could feel the venom in my body with the crib, with the foreign language instructions. Because I feel like we've all lived that. It's like, yeah. Thanks for the gift.

Well, and there was no, one of the things that really struck me watching you do that, I was like, we had none of the stuff then that helps you now. There was no, like, Google app on your iPhone that can translate any menu into English. No. There was no TaskRabbit. turns out skills is the task rabbit he's like oh yeah my baby proof i'm a handy man that was fun that was so funny he was so funny in that scene with you but that's also who he is in real life it is exactly what i wrote it down i was like she has no task rabbit she has no translate she has nothing

she has nothing to help her she's just stuck except mea who maybe is italian catalano yeah so silly i just remember I don't know why I that crib I hated that crib so much yeah it was in the way or something and maybe it just took them too long to set up I don't know why it was like really it was a no I remember and I noticed it in the episode because if you're not that you're going to go back because who has time but like if you notice there's a lot of shots that are just kind of instead of directly over each other's shoulders it's like we did a two shot and then we sort of just did the like I don't know how to explain it. Yeah, cross coverage, that was like slightly wider,

but just like, how do we get out of this faster? Because this is, this crib is really irritating. Well, for it to fall apart all four sides like that, the setup, you know, you're putting together an erector set with just enough parts not connected to fall apart on cue. That was a nightmare. Yeah. Handled. Handled, though.

The comedy. Handled it. Well, that's it. For our friends at home, sometimes the thing that looks the easiest, is literally the hardest pain in the ass on the day. Like to make that thing stick together but then also fall down like thud, thud, thud, thud, one side at a time. It's just a night. They had a fishing wire.

Yeah. They had four rigs and fishing wire. It's just terrible. Yeah. And that's just the stuff that nobody, you know, who's not on set would know. But, oh, man, it's like if you've ever had a friend come visit on a day where you have to do a little gag like that, that's when the people are like this is what you guys do all day

this is really boring and you're like thanks thank you it's great yeah believe in the power of the edit the edit the edit will make it funny loved it speaking of funny

Dan and Jamie like their whole story the beginning though like I loved the blocking of the beginning where Jamie's walking on that wall so that he and Dan are equals like I and them talk you could just feel how much fun

Paul was having. Yeah. I could, too. He really was having a good time. It seemed almost out of character for it. It was, it was so much Paul and so little Dan. Mm-hmm. But, you know, he likes to mess with the audience that way, too, so who knows?

I also think, though, in a way, what I like, and I have seen this, you know, with people. I love, certainly, especially now that, you know, so many of our friends, our parents. people who didn't have great relationships with some of their parents their parents are getting a second shot with the grandkids they're getting to be the parents they never got to be

and it's like kind of profound and I feel like that's almost what we're seeing with Dan and it probably is because Paul just had so much fun with Jackson and they're so charming together and you can tell how much fun Jackson has with Paul but you know you were traveling last week Joy, but I was saying to Hill and Kate, I was like, I hate that I love Dan Scott in this episode.

And I'm having the same experience in this one. I just love him. And I know better, but my God, I love him. And maybe it's because I really, you know, really love Paul. But it is so freaking sweet to see them like this. And I don't know. I just, I want more of it. I want so much more of this Dan and Jamie dynamic. Well, let's be for real. Like if we're Miss Lauren, We're kissing Grandpa Dan a hundred and a thousand percent. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, showing up at that dude's beach house and he's so charming.

And he's just, his hair has never looked better. He's so good with the child. He reads the time traveler's wife. On what planet does Dan Scott read the time traveler's wife? Of course he does. Listen, that prison library is small joy. He's going to read whatever is there. That's right.

That's right. I loved it. Jamie. Back off. He was in prison. She's just like, oh, okay. That's great to know. Cool, cool.

To do with that. Oh, I loved it. Because you can tell she's like viving a little bit with him. Oh, yeah. And there is no greater buzzkill than that he was in prison, Bob. No, that kind of wrecks it. I still think it's weird that. After the kidnapping, Dan brings Jamie back.

There's the whole hell of blue about that. And now it's just, it's a free-for-all. He just picks up Jamie from school. He's the babysitter. It's like it's all good now. Everything from the past, just wiped, slate, wiped clean. Because he, you know, he showed up and was a hero for an afternoon, which is amazing. But like, what's going on?

Dude. I don't know. It seems strange to me. If I didn't do the show that I do for Sundance, where I literally just cover small town cases of murder, I wouldn't believe this storyline, but you would be amazed what people just turn their heads off to. They're like, I don't want to think about that. He's fine. I need a babysitter. He's available. Wow. You know, like, you can super compartmentalize. Yeah, you can talk yourself into anything. Yeah. He didn't mean it. Yeah, but when I really try to think about it too, You know, Dan got kidnapped by her. He got tortured.

He missed a heart. If we really get granular on not even touching on the Dan and Keith of it all, but I wonder how much of that, too, where you go like, this man, whatever I may think of him, shares trauma with my grandson, with this crazy person, he's the only person who understands. So let's let them spend time together. To your point, I think you can kind of rationalize or compartmentalize. anything, and maybe that's part of why it feels so weird for us to be watching these episodes and loving Dan, because we're like, I'm supposed to not like him. But the human mind and heart

operate very differently from like black and white lists on a piece of paper. Yeah. Yeah. If you, if you only start the clock at like Jamie's awareness of Dan, like when they actually meet, Dan's a victim. And that's all Jamie knows him as. It's like, a fellow victim. Yeah. Kid doesn't know, doesn't know all, you know,

the backstory. He wasn't there for it. But Haley and Nathan do. Where's Deb? Like, where did Deb go? Where is she? I really don't know. It's been,

it's pretty strange. They had a good thing going with her babysitting. Yeah. I don't know. There's too many other storylines, I guess. Maybe they tried to get her for this episode

and she was not available or something. Vanderbeek telling me that I'm too. too old to play Peyton but I'd make a great Deb feels like in right now in 2024 very full circle yeah I guess

I guess yeah I guess that is what we'd be doing now we would be the moms no yeah I'll be Deb I like how messy she I do too man it may look too man But native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture.

It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. was it this cohesive on the paper no i think we added in a lot like there was a lot of

um transitions that were disjointed and things that felt like i i remember working a lot on on the transitions in particular just trying to make sure that everything flowed and figuring out thematically like where the ties were and how to just keep it moving i think that at that point that was probably my biggest complaint about the show if i would watch it is like we just had we had too many episodes that felt stagnant or like destroyed to disconnect it as we've been talking about and there were plenty that were really good too and that moved but um yeah this just the whole thing felt like it should be fun and there was no need to stop and be super serious with anything other than a couple of key moments.

Everything else was just, let's just keep it moving. Let's keep everybody having fun. And then the moments really played up, like, when the camera would stop, when you go into the new principal's office, you know, and you can't decide if you're going to sit or stand or sit or stand, there's motion. And then when she says the thing, everything stops. And the choices that you and the DP made together in those ways, help the energy of like, wait, what did she say?

Like that big reveal, that thing that feels so bad literally causes a stop motion and it increases for, as an audience member, the shock of what's happening. Do you remember? Because obviously we weren't in that scene. Where does this new principle come from? Why is this going to be like a big storyline for Haley?

I was like, wait, wait, wait, who is this? woman. I, like, I just didn't remember. She does come back. She, by the way, was from Seinfeld. She was Mulva. The best, the best. Did you cast her? I don't remember. She's scary, man. Yeah. Yeah, she's serious. I think she does come back. It becomes a bigger, a little bit of a bigger storyline. She was lovely, really lovely person. Yeah, I don't remember much about that. But it Those are what you were saying. Those are fun things to learn how to do and just create story with camera, you know, pulling away and leave people alone or long lenses and how that creates a feeling of being a part of a community. And it's just, it was really, it was really cool to learn a lot, a lot of that stuff.

I don't know how you, so how soon after this did you direct? I, I directed in the following season and season seven. Okay. Did you feel like had you, did you do anything before? you directed to sort of prep for that in terms of learning, or was it on the fly? I was learning a lot of this on the fly, like, oh, if we pull out, she feels really alone, let's do that, you know, you just kind of pick it up along the way. I agree.

I mean, I think if anything, the stuff that I really felt like I intentionally wanted to observe was, you know, pacing how you would like keep a set organized and keep to a schedule, because, you know, we were shooting techniques just a day. It's a lot. Me? Shocker. And for me, it was about, like, you know, blocking efficiency, like, really watching the things that directors, we felt close enough to pester with questions we're doing.

And then, yeah, the more technical stuff, even now, even after all those episodes we did and all the things, like, me being a little dyslexic, it's, like, very hard for me to remember. which lens is which. Like I always have to ask a like a confirming question. But yeah, beginning to figure out what technical things you could do to increase a feeling, you know, of closeness or distance or how you could block something to make someone appear very alone in a crowd. You know, that stuff, I feel like on the one hand, we were learning. in real time because we just did it every day. And then on the other hand, like, there were things you'd learn on the day because, thank God, we had a crew that had been with us for so many

years. And such good camera department that could be like, hey, here's a quick tip. Like, I learned this thing in film school and you'd be like, oh, okay, great. Yeah. Fantastic. I remember that with the Jamie and Dan stuff, we had, there was a shot of him walking down the stairs. And I was like, just now watching it, I went, why are we in a crane? Why the world would be using a crane for this. That seemed so unnecessary. And then I remember that they had, there was some kind of thing where they like had this crane. They had to use it because they had, I don't know if it had to be sent back. I didn't have to be sent back. I don't know what was going up. There was something that they were like, no, you have the crane and you should, you know,

you need to use it. And I remember being like, can we use it a trick? And they're like, well, you're inside. It's a whole thing to get it upstairs. Like, is there any outdoor location? We could just use the crane. I was like, all right, fine. Great. So getting to learn from the crew, How do you, you know, those kinds of things on the fly where the day before they're like, let's use a crane. Okay, great. Figuring out what to do with the crane to make it interesting. But, you know, anyway, I was going to say, I really liked watching Peyton. I know we talked about the crib, but that was from a different perspective.

But I liked watching Peyton struggle through with this whole doing things on her own without Lucas around because she's so capable. And that's, you know, she's kind of used to being a loner. And it was really sweet to see her in a space where she is so used to being alone and handling things on her own. And she really doesn't want to be now. And like to struggle from that place, I feel like we've all been there. You know, when you're single for a long time and you're used to just getting done and then you fall in love and you start to rely on the other person and then they're suddenly not

around and then you have to go back to being the way that you were, but you don't want to because you're soft now. open it was really sweet the shell is off i know how did you feel about that the all that stuff that you guys were i mean once you guys were together it was all super lovey-devy but we were apart a lot like i've talked before about the isolation of peyton in this whole season and this episode was a nice departure because she goes to trick she's with mea she's with brook she's with haley like Peyton's getting little like pop-ins from skills you know like i got to in maybe that's why i like episode so much. Because she wasn't so alone. But you felt like you had a life. I wasn't all by

myself, you guys. Yeah, I, it is really hard for me to work on stuff around my house with someone, because I'm just conditioned to do stuff by myself. And every year I go through the same process of where I get really comfortable with my husband being home and like helping me pick the kids up and helping me with the groceries and like doing all of that. And, like, doing all of that. and he leaves tomorrow to go start filming his show and I feel pain's anxiety in this where it's like, no, but I finally let someone in. Like I'm just codependent enough to feel comfortable

and you're not here. Yeah, I just want a dash of codependency because it's fleeting. They always have to go somewhere, fine. But when Lucas shows up at the ultrasound, sound, that undid me. Like, I had a nice little cry about that. Yeah.

That stuff, especially if you've ever suffered pregnancy loss, is hard to explain the terror of going to those appointments because there's no guarantee that they're going to go right. and you are with a stranger who, you know, you feel like a guinea pig, and it's much easier to face tragedy when you have your person with you. But there's nothing worse than when the tech is like, can you just go sit back in the waiting room? I'll have someone come talk to you in a minute. You know, like it's really bad. And so I completely, Peyton's terror. And what's weird to me is that we had to depict this stuff before. it happened to us in real life like none of us had had kids

right you know like we were guessing uh and so yes so much of this episode is meta but it feels meta for me personally because I lived it not long after and I don't know that gets in your head that's when you start to

wonder like if you conjure shit like what's happening um but Lucas showing up made me love Lucas and Peyton so much people pick on us for being cheese balls once we're together. I don't give a shit. I don't care what you think. We are in love. He showed up. He was like, you told me last week. Like, what? You heard that? Yeah. Like, that's Lucas Scott. That's who he is. He's, you kidding me? No matter what's going on,

no matter how crazy the day is, no matter how much his world is exploding or getting weight on his shoulder, putting weight on his shoulders. He's going to show up for Peyton. That's why we love them. romantic. And it didn't cost a thing. He just showed up and remembered. Well, I don't cost us. I mean. But it speaks to that really important and sometimes I think hard to define, but you know when you see it experience of really being seen. When you feel seen, when you feel valued, like you can design a whole life. And if you you don't feel seen, it will feel empty. And I think that's why those moments feel so special.

That moment that I told you made me cry last week for you guys. You know, when you, I was telling Hillary Joy when you were traveling that she and Chad had this scene last week about Keith's ring. And like what struck me as a viewer was, oh, Peyton is literally choosing her dream come true. She's saying, I want the thing I've always wanted. It was so, like, oh, it just, like, squeezed my heart in the best way. And this felt like a continuation of that, which is especially, I think, nice to see for Peyton and everything she's been through. You, in that scene, he walks in the door and it's like, oh, she is seen and heard and loved.

And that's everything. That's everything. What else you mean? What else you mean? Totally different animal. Safe Peyton is cheesy. She's making bad mom jokes all the time. Like, who's that chick?

But what a beautiful arc to go from where she came from to be here now, Save Payton. Because trauma can make some people real shabby, right? Yeah. And I like that our girls have all been through different kinds of trauma and are trying to be the best version, not the, you know, not the gross version. I liked that when you were talking about camera lenses and like different techniques to make things feel a certain way, I liked that you had me take my jacket off at that scene by the fire because there's something really vulnerable about like your full arms showing like Peyton had been in this blazer the whole episode, which feels like I'm holding it together. I'm holding it together. I'm structured. I'm a business lady. I'm a boss. I'm a grown up. And then taking off that layer is. this really subliminal because I'm like rubbing my arm in the scene and I remember when we watched it thinking just like oh what like a weird self-soothing mechanism. And there was just like a vulnerability to it. And those are those little things that a great director can figure out like we can say the

words but we can add this layer and it will feel even sadder or remove a layer. That might have been your choice though too. You know you you mean that's also one of the things we get to do as actors come up with these things that will feel will help us tell the story. So I don't remember if that was me or you, but either way, I liked the choice. How did you jump from directing to doing all your shit, though? Because your stuff was really serious this episode. I mean, Haley is not only dealing with this thing at work, but she's also counseling Lucas and she's counseling Peyton and dealing with, you know, Nathan's got big stuff. You know, like it was, it's not like they gave you an episode off. No, they certainly didn't. I don't know that I don't know that

I felt like it was all that serious. I think the material felt manageable for me. It felt like a natural place to go to. The conversations were pretty easy. The dialogue wasn't too complicated. So there was a second nature to a lot of that that didn't throw me off too much. I just really did not enjoy trying to be in a scene with someone and also trying to be out of my body

and imagining what the scene looks like as an actor I don't like that I want to be fully present so I didn't enjoy that I would prefer not to do that again Did you have someone like helping you Greg might have Rick was

RAD too he was super helpful remember seeing Chad in this episode Chad Graves it's so fun Chad Graves was our other first assistant director for you guys at home there was like our stand in stephen played one of the nathens who else was a little a little treat in here yeah stephen and chad graves were super exciting to see and and when when the girls you know when we're

talking about these guys chad graves and rick clark for our friends at home the the first ades on our shows are really like the steadiness on set every episode you've got a different director Sometimes a director will do two or three episodes in a season, but the first ADs, one of them takes all the odd episodes, like one, three, five, and then one of them takes all the even episodes, you know, 24, six, etc. And so every other week, you flip-flop between these two people. And so to get to put Chad Graves in was so cool and really random just continuation of how our little Wilmington family has stayed so tight. I got to spend a couple more years working with Rick Clark because he came in to be one of the first ADs on Chicago Met. So on all my crossover episodes, I was working with Rick. And so it's like, I don't know. It's so special for us those really long relationships.

And yeah, it feels like, it feels so cool when you get to throw your friends on screen. And then, you know, the people who know, no, it's like a fun little inside joke. Well, I like it because those cocky assholes are always like, actors, mm, actors. And then when you're shining the light, on them and you're like, okay, hit your mark, go.

And all of a sudden they're like, oh, yeah, no, I'm cool. I'm cool. Yeah, no, this is all right. Yeah. I'm a little flustered. I'm okay. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly like very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn

Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey. Oh, who is most likely to sell everything and travel the world for three years? It's a specific amount of time. Yeah. It really is. Yeah. Sell everything. Well, not Sophia. She's a hoarder.

I'm like, you know, I could never. And not me. I don't leave my fucking house. Joy, you're the one that's traveling right now. I guess I could do that. I could see myself doing that. I don't know if I'd sell everything for three years of travel. I might sell everything for 10 years of travel if I was just like, peace out. Like Maria's at college, I'm going to go just bounce. Do you want to be like those people who figured out that if they just live on cruises, they don't have any taxes anymore? And so they're spending all their retirement money because they don't live anywhere. They live in international waters. There was this big article about this couple doing this. They've taken their whole retirement savings and they are just living on cruise ships for the next 15 years.

Yep. The horror of that to me. Oh, I could never. That sounds like my worst nightmare. But if it's what you like, I am passionate about my things and my chotchkis. I get made fun of very often when I talk about my chotchkes. I get teased about my trinkets and trash. One man's trash is another woman's treasure.

Thank you very much. You're a bit of an overpacker, which I appreciate, because I appreciate it. I'm always the one that's like, I didn't bring shoes. I need up out. You need shoes. You need earrings. Got it. Yeah.

Where do you go for three years? Where are you going? Well, I guess I'm going to go. I mean, I'm going to travel. I'm going to get on trains. I'll probably do Europe for a year. I'll do Asia for a year. I'd go to, I don't know, maybe Australia.

Just go wander. Yeah. See what's out there. Say hi to people. Get to know people that are different. Say hello. Which character is doing this? Is it also Haley?

It feels like a Lucas thing if he didn't have Peyton. Like if Lucas and Peyton don't work out, he's... Yeah. Yeah, it feels like he would vagabond around. And like write a second, very emo book. Vagabondi novel. Yeah. Yeah, and Haley would like rib him and be like, what do you think you are, Jack Kerouac?

And he'd be like, yeah. Like, it would be very... that and I think it would be cutie All right I like this I like it Now we have a question guys We have a question

From Lisa Lisa this is a very broad question I'm not mad at it though She wants to know what your favorite genre of music is Like today Because it changes All the time

I mean today Today Cowboy Carter I'm like I'm like acting The full album is currently my favorite everything happening. But it changes all the time. It depends on my mood.

Yeah. You know? Yeah, me too. Is there one genre that you can always listen to no matter what's going on? You can always be like, I'm down with this. Do you have one? I wasn't allowed to listen to modern radio growing up. Yeah, me either.

I absolutely like nothing modern. And I only listened to like Motown and more 60s music. Like the 60s was a whole vibe. And that was before you could get serious radio or any kind of satellite radio to like selectively pick things out. I heart. Yeah. So there was, yes, there was an oldie station and I learned every word to every oldie song ever. Oh, yeah.

It's my comfort zone. The kids know, like, if they come in the kitchen and that's blaring, they're like, oh, she had a day. Okay. Yeah. I'm fantastic. Yeah, Motown. Yeah, I love oldies. That's good.

I feel like this is a, that's a zone. The classic rock zone I can get into a lot pretty easily, the Carol King and the Beatles and the 70s stuff, I'm pretty, I'm pretty into. That's what my parents listen to. So I think it's the same type of thing. It's like whatever the comfort zone is from when you're a kid, maybe.

Yeah, it's like I always listened. Anytime I was alone in the car with my mom, we'd Blair Motown. and any time I was alone in the car with my dad, we'd always turn on, like, the original Eagles records. And so I have this, like, sweet, like, solo date with my parents' energy about both of those things. So anytime I get in a car and, like, either of those genres is on the radio,

I always leave it. But, yeah, I feel like maybe because we're actors and, like, part of the way we really get into things is music. Like, I make a soundtrack for every character I've ever played. So I feel like it's so hard to pick something. Yeah, we have an appreciation for so many different things. Yeah. But yeah, the anytime keep it on feels nice.

All right, you guys, next episode is season six, episode 17. You and me and the bottle makes three. Sounds like my life story. Oh, tonight. Yeah, I forgot the tonight part. Makes three tonight. Wah, wah. You're next week.

See you later. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's O-T-H. Or email us at Drama Queen's at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl.

Trauma girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. Smart girl, rough girl, fashion. It's your tough girl, you could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture.

Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other Native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.