Drama Queens - Be Careful Who You Stereotype ᐧ EP705

Episode Date: August 12, 2024

Sophia, Joy and Rob break down the latest episode and they aren't shy to mention a few inaccurate portrayals. They also discuss how they think Nathan successfully covered his tracks from Haley for so long. Then, Rob questions how Nathan continues to keep secrets from Haley and asks Joy the burning question of why she suddenly had red hair in this episode!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens.

I just wanted to start by saying, Joy, you were sorely missed last week. Oh, thank you. We had a wonderful guest in Daphne. She came by and was so much fun. But, you know, it didn't fill the joy-sized void in my heart. And probably the hearts of everyone. So welcome back, friend. Thank you so much.

I'm thrilled to be back. Yeah, it was a harried week last week. and I'm really happy to be slowing down a little bit. Folks, for you out there, who don't know, you have Portland, London, and I was going to say Paris, but you don't have Paris. You have Michigan. Portland, London, and Michigan today. My Paris trip was sadly short. It looked spectacular.

Oh. What is cooler than the Olympics? I don't know. I really don't know. It's such an amazing thing to experience and to experience it in one of my favorite cities. Yeah. It was just so surreal. Like the horse riding events were at the Palace of Versailles.

Oh, stop. They were at Versailles. They were at Versailles. Oh, gosh, that's amazing. I was like watching these gorgeous riders on these big, beautiful horses ride through ponds in front of a palace. And I was like, this is just... Once in a lifetime. Yeah, it felt once in a lifetime. It was very cool. Once in many lifetimes. I wish I was still there, but I will also say that being in Michigan doing the work Nia and I do, I'm getting to see a couple of places I have never been before in the state and then getting to go to some of my other favorite places in the state. Ironically, today we're leaving Harbor Springs and going to Traverse City. And guess who first took me to Traverse City? Janet Kramer.

Oh, no way. So it's like I'm having a very one tree hill day today. with you guys and this yeah it's really fun are you all winter olympics or summer olympics folks all olympics yeah i mean i'm i guess i'd tune in more for winter because i was an ice skating kid like i loved i didn't go ice skating ever but i loved watching it because it seemed so magical to me and curling always seemed so strange i was fascinated by it's such a weird sport the randomness of curling and skiing i mean yeah i think i'm more winter if I had to pick. What are you, Rob? Well, I ask because I, I feel like I remember the, the Summer Olympics being kind of like the redheaded stepchild. Like, I, I remember,

specifically there was a joke on 30 Rocks because back then NBC had the Olympics and someone saying like, well, we had the Olympics and someone responded, summer Olympics, summer Olympics. However, they've just rolled around and I'm watching it fascinated. And I found myself, going, wait, how are these not cool? This is awesome. You know, I was just talking with somebody, they're so cool. I was just talking to somebody three days ago who was like, I don't know what we were talking about. There was some reason the topic came up, but basically the statement that was said that blew my mind was, yeah, but nobody cares about the Winter Olympics. The only thing people watch are Summer Olympics, like the entire world watches the Summer Olympics, the winter or

like, whatever. And I was like, what planet did you grow up on? I don't know anybody who wasn't obsessed with the Winter Olympics. It's very weird to me. I mean, how are you going to pick between like downhill skiing and gymnastics? They're incredible. They're iconic. They're different. But I don't know why anybody would suggest that one season of Olympics is less magical than

the other. I think they're all so cool. Sophia, magic for all. Magic for all. Listen, like the way I think kids feel. about Disneyland. That's how I feel about the Olympics as an adult. Yeah. Do we all, I'm wondering if this is still a like younger generation. Did they feel that way too? Because when we were kids, there was 10 channels on a television. And when the Olympics were on, they were on all the

channels, then that's all you could watch. And it really united us as a country. And it was the one thing you could sit down and knew that everybody was doing at the same time. And now it's like, yeah, watch the Olympics great. Or if you want to watch a real crime show on history channel or any other channel you can watch that or 750 other things like did you see a lot of younger crowds there or was it mostly people sort of our age and older no i mean full incredible smattering of like everybody there's families traveling there's uh i mean god i saw adorable elderly people from every country and you know down to parents carrying their toddlers in like baby bjorns it was very yeah it was just very cool. I saw a

hilarious tweet that said a person was basically saying, I'm still petitioning the Olympic Committee just before every event, let one average random person do the event. That way we have a frame

of reference for just how superhuman everyone else is. Because when you only show superhumans doing it, they all look average except for like the one super superhuman. But if you put like one average average Joe out there first, then it would be mind-blowing to see how incredible these performances are. I love that idea. Why are we not doing that? I feel like everybody could get behind that.

I feel like they could wear like a, you know, the advertising could go on jerseys. I feel like people would show up from hometowns to cheer on their average Joe runner. Yeah. Or skier. Like the half court shot that you get the chance to try to make at like a WNBA or an NBA game. Yes. You know, where some person gets up and it's like, well, let's see if I can compete with one of the pros. It would be so cool to see someone just try. Yeah, I mean, that would unite the world for sure. Are you serious?

Everybody would tune in for that. As many people as watch reality TV, everybody would tune in for that. What if, what if, hear me out, because I love that angle also, and sort of a less severe hunger games way, what if instead of giving people like 450 hours of community, service they were just like you are going to have to do an event that we're not going to tell you about until five minutes before in front of the entire world because could you imagine you have no time to prep for it you just show up and they're like by the way you're you're running the

800 you know you're doing hurdles no way and then you just get shamed in front of the whole and they have like one one athlete run it with you just so there's like it's especially clear how poor you are at this it would be so painful that is that is a dystopian version of society that I am interested in. Did you see the other tweet that is going viral in this subject matter where somebody essentially said that the one normal person who does said Olympic event so we can understand how hard it is gets picked by random selection like jury duty to just get a notice in the mail? And it's like this year you're competing for your country on the pommel horse. Like, huh? I guess what we're saying future Olympic committees is we all are

open to be terrible at whatever event, winter or summer, because we love them both equally, just let us know. I would do that instead of jury duty. I'm volunteering. Sure. I would do that instead of jury duty. No problem. Happy to make an ass out of myself.

I do it every day. Might as well. Might as well do it in the Olympics. Do it for your country. Should we talk about this episode gig? Yeah. Yeah. Rob, you want to tell everybody what the heck we're watching?

This is a big one. I would love to. It was a big one. Season 7, episode 5, Your Cheaton Heart, air date October 12th, 2009. Haley is thrust into the spotlight

and storm of Nathan's growing scandal. Against her better judgment, Brooke allows Julian to continue working with Alex, while Millicent gets a new job, which may cause trouble for mouth. Meanwhile, Clay and Quinn grow closer.

Directed by Pistol Pete Kowalski. Aw, my best. I do, too. Talking about making an ass out of yourself in front of people in public, I mean, Haley, with this slap, this slap that went viral, it's quite a thing. I wouldn't call that making an ass. That was kind of bad ass. Okay, okay, I'll take it.

There was some strong mama bear instincts happening there that I was on board for. Yeah. Yeah. Haley's got a habit of doing this, so this is the maybe third person, maybe fourth. I think it's probably the fourth person I've slapped on the show, which makes me feel like Haley definitely grew up in a big Irish Catholic family. And there were lots of kids smacking each other around. Older sisters.

This episode, as per usual, had so many great quotables in it. Yeah. And this opening scene with you and James, I loved the moment. You know, you guys are just having, you're looking at the tabloid. He walks up, sipping a cup of coffee. And he's just trying to be a good teammate. He says, there are a worst things. things than hitting a pregnant woman.

And you say, yeah, like what? And he just takes a slow sip of his coffee and goes, give me a minute. It was so good. I was really into the Nathan Haley storyline in this episode. It was fun to see them, it was fun to see them processing through something. I feel like we've seen a lot of them at odds when something difficult comes up. There seems to be a lot of, they're fighting against each other a lot. And so to be able to face something together head on, felt like a real mature growth in the relationship.

And important to see for us as viewers to know how far they've come. I agree. We actually talked about that a little bit last week with Daphne, that it's really refreshing. And look, TV needs drama, right? But it's really refreshing that instead of what just like you're talking about, instead of you guys fighting about something, you get to see two adults in the ultimate sort of representation of a healthy relationship, which is it's you and me on this side of the court and on the other side of the net is the problem. Like we really face it as a team. And I've loved seeing you guys do that and the sort of strength and ease of Nathan and Haley that I think. comes so naturally from you and James

spending these seven years working together. You feel the history so inherently between you two. And it's why it's nice when instead of the drama being, you know, some other crazy thing that happens near the end of the episode, I like that it's like a little worm of suspicion getting at you. From the women in jail, from Renee coming to talk to you,

you deciding to check the phone records, after Jamie's fallen asleep, sorry to skip ahead, but it's like it weasels its way in and it makes it feel more insidious because then we know as an audience that you're not totally on the same team anymore and he doesn't know yet and it makes us feel like we are in on a secret

and it's a nice kind of suspense tool. Yeah, it's good. I have lots of thoughts on that, but I have to start by talking about the prison situation. Let's get into it. Haley does hard time. Haley and the hookers, like, why are the only women in jail?

Why? Prostitutes. Every time. There are so many other ways to break a law. We know who wrote our show. There was so much, by the way, not just the girls in prison with you. There was so much that was so insane about women in this episode. Yeah, so much unnecessary.

And it was like, well, obviously, Girl throws herself at a man she wants to work with and takes her clothes off and it's like, no, they don't. No, they don't. But we say that. Anyway, yes, from the, from the gals in jail, although I'm always happy when, you know, some of our friends on our crew get to get in front of the camera and act. But my God, it was so wild to me. Yeah. Yeah. Top to bottom. How about there's no phones? I love that. First of all, it was a terrific surprise when you have a visitor. Haley has a visitor. And I'm like, oh, sweet.

Nathan was right on her heels. He's there. And that it was Renee, very effective. I was, I gasped. But neither of you pick up phones. You just start talking of each other through the plexiglass. I'm like, did set deck not have time to grab two phone handles? Like, that's not how that works.

They record everything. What? Yeah, what did happen? They were like, sorry, we couldn't find any phones today. Just go ahead and shoot. Somebody said, all right. It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture.

It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornales, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep tradition. alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And the fact that she brought lipstick to write her number on, like she didn't just write it on a piece of paper. Like she knew she was going to do that. Hold up a, like, oh, no, it's got to be written in lipstick. I mean, it's very dramatic. Yeah. Yeah. Does that ruin your lipstick? Or do you just, after you put your lipstick on something other than your lips, can you wipe it off?

Or is that just toast? Well, you can wipe it off, but I mean, that's going to great, it, like, put its wax, basically. So if you just, like, pushed it down, there's nothing left for you to use. I guess you could cut it off and use whatever it was left. But clearly she didn't care about that lipstick. She just wanted to be dramatic. But, like, who carries around lipstick that you don't care about? Cheap lipstick that you just plan on writing on Plexic?

glass with? Like you stopped at the Walgreens on your way to jail? I know how I'll do it. Let me get a, let me get a lipstick for a dollar so I can really pack a punch. Well, this girl is dramatic. I mean, she's doing such a great job, playing a character that is accusing in such dramatic ways and sitting so quietly and so still and so solid and like, it's very, it's unsettling how settled she is. Yeah. And what's interesting about it is what I like about the way you and James, because that's sort of the main through line right now is what's happening with you guys.

But sort of to this point, you two are so grounded. You're a united front. Like everything around you is crazy, but you two are like, we're good. We know how we're handling this. Like your energy is stable. And it's interesting because opposite you is the person who's making these crazy accusations who's also playing it very grounded, very real, very direct. And so it creates this interesting dynamic where what's happening around you is like

paparazzi circus, public allegations, but the actual people involved are calculated, are quiet. Yeah. It's so much more believable that she is so still and calm. Scary. But what you were saying about them facing everything as a couple. and you know all the chaos going on around them and what you were saying so about them being a united front at the end but then the suspicion creeping in what this made me think of i was thinking about putting myself back in haley's shoes uh nathan has a history of covering his own ass when he's in trouble he did it with a basketball cheating scandal in high school which is why he didn't end up going to college on a scholarship for basketball he did it with a Nanny Carrie, knowing how inappropriate she was being and how, you know, he didn't set boundaries and he just didn't want to get in trouble and didn't, and then look what happened. He's done

impulsive things when he's drinking, like the bar fight and then the, you know, the fight when he was in the wheelchair, it was like there's a, there's a history of that. And their whole relationship started because he was trying to mess with Lucas. And my question is, when your relationship starts on manipulation of any kind, can you ever really get past that or will you always default to suspicion? Like, is that why Haley is when she's checking the phone records? Like, it's starting to creep in because she's like, he's done this, not this, but he's spent time covering his own ass before. Do I let this in? I think it's such a good question and I think it's hard to answer because some of what we're referencing is high school. Like teenagers.

Yeah. You don't have a fully formed brain yet. Like you don't. There's no way you know how to make good decisions and you do get so scared to, you know, figuratively be called to the principal's office and you have to learn to practice your integrity so that hopefully you do so as an adult, right? Like that's the sort of idea of coming of age. But. So few people got married when they were 16. So so few people in their adult relationships know the sorts of things you're referencing. And so the way I saw it as an audience member watching the episode was that because of the way Renee is behaving with Haley and she seems so sure. And she apologizes and says, it's not you, I'm angry at and he's lying to us both.

it's such a bold thing for her to be doing to give you her number and say look in his phone records of course you go well why would she say all of this if there's not some truth to it and you can't help but look and the fact that she knows

she's going to find out anyway even Haley says it in the episode like right we're going to find out as soon as a baby's born what are you talking about right so it that to me is sort of like the little earworm

like it gets in there and then it just starts to grow you know, it's the same sort of thing that we even see in Millie's instance and that we talked about last week, you know, that you immediately take the horrible commentary personally because it's hurtful and the good stuff doesn't penetrate because we all, you know, don't believe it. It's like, I think those things that could hurt you, it's just human nature that they get in. And I think the way she gets, them in makes sense to me but it's interesting to think about adding the layer of oh did he get drunk and act like high school Nathan because that guy's in there somewhere that's who she met that's who she fell in love with you know that guy and the potential new guy that she or the potential you know mature version of Nathan but I don't know I wonder I haven't been in a relationship long term enough to be able to know whether or not you're always still kind of looking back at the past

and being like, is that person still in there? Or did we really grow? Right. Well, because so often when you look at all of the evidentiary past of someone being terrible, you end the relationship. Like, you know, you go, huh, okay, the bad deeds have piled up to here. I think I deserve more than this. I'm done. Yeah. And so it's an interesting thing when, you know, you go, huh, okay, the bad deeds have piled up to here. I think I think I deserve more than this. I'm done. yeah and so it's an interesting thing when we're observing this couple who hasn't hit that threshold we are more in the fairy tale you know written for a great epic television love story land where there were some indiscretions clearly never enough to make you leave so what do you do with them all now robert uh i'm going to answer that question with the question uh completely off

topic joy did you have a chance to watch 704 yeah uh oh no no four yeah uh oh no No, no, I didn't. Okay. Well, it kind of carried over to this one, but we had a very big burning question. Did your hair suddenly get red? Did you, is this, at this point in the season, did you just have a dramatic hair color that we didn't address on the show that happened in real life? Completely. I mean, this was, oh, yes.

And I don't even think we, it was probably one of those where I was like, I would love to have a reddish tone. and I think we ended up with a full this season for hair was tough I think there was some crossover happening in the hair department where with people coming in and going out and just human life like the people everybody's personal lives are real

and you can't always just show up and be a robot at work and so I feel like there were sometimes some moments that didn't quite go as planned with hair but it looked good I was happy with it but it was a little bright. Yeah. What I remember, too, about that joy is, again, with this big shift we had

with you, Rob, and Chantelle coming in and retooling the show, it was almost like we were back in season one. And because Chantel had brownish red hair, they were in a panic. They were like, we don't have a blonde. What are we going to do? And so they took her hair in that, like, darker red world.

You got bright red, because apparently when people are sisters, they have to have somehow the same hair color. And then my hair went back to being like very dark, ashy brown. Yes. But I don't know why they didn't make me blonde instead, like go back because I had been blonde before on the show. Honestly, I was pretty stubborn.

I mean, it might have just been me being like, no, I want red hair. I mean, if I'm being very honest, I know what my tendencies were. I may have just done that, but I don't remember. I hope I didn't, but I don't know. Who knows? but I definitely remember thinking in some of the scenes with the two of you girls with the James sisters like going

oh I see what they're trying to do here they really want you to go no they do look alike look and it's those things that a network will often put in the notes that sounds right right I wonder yeah clearly we were still trying to figure out my hair I was not into the look on this episode

it was all not working for me personally but yeah the red I mean, everybody's got to try red once. You found exactly the right shade. So that's what I should have done has gone to a color specialist and been like, if we're going to do red, you have to match with your skin tone.

Yeah. That's a lot that goes into red. But by the way, this, don't forget, we were still in the, you know, mid-aughts or on the early side. Like, color was not what it is now. Do you remember when I went red years before this for that movie?

And I literally, I mean, it looked like somebody had thrown me in like a cinnamon vat and then let me loose in the streets. It was horrible. It was horrible. This version, which of course is in a ponytail today, so I can't really illustrate for the eventual YouTube, is much better.

But I just think this whole era of hair color and the fact that they color timed our show so orange as it is. Orange. Yeah, it was rough. Could you please tell us the name of that movie so we could all Google it on the episode and Google it right now? No, no, I shan't. There's IMDB, ma'am.

We will find this. do for you, Rob. I will send you some photos for you to giggle at. I shan't be encouraging the internet to do it for me. The internet is already a trashy enough place. Just take it from Millicent. That's right. Millie. A turd sandwich. It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that. culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly like very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric that this is something we've been doing for

like hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn SageBurn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Wait, Rob, what are your thoughts on this Nathan and Haley, like, the relate, well, even just the relationship, like, longevity and looking back at people's past crimes and, like, I'm just curious, like, what your thoughts are on that. So my first thought when you said that was it reminds me of when someone meets someone who's in a relationship and they hook up and they start having a relationship. And then down the line they get cheated on. and it's that thing of but you do remember your origin story

was them cheating on someone else to meet you, right? Yeah. Like a snake's always going to be a snake. That's an oversimplification though because the problem is like Sofa was saying

there is such a difference in the person you are at 18 and I'll speak for at least men and at 35 because it takes us a bit longer to pull our heads out of our ass so at a certain point you have to decide are you going to

hold on to who they were at 18 or am I going to be comfortable with who I know they have grown into? Yeah. So what's nice about it with you guys is what I get as a viewer is I feel like you know who he is up until the very, very end of the episode that you're comfortable, like you're confident. Like those were past transgressions. I know the man he is now.

Yeah. We're good. Yeah. Well, and it is really interesting, you know, even in the relationship between Nathan and David, Nathan talks about Haley and Chris Keller. He's like, look, everybody has these growing pains, things happen. It's a reminder that Nathan is not the only person who's ever had an indiscretion or a confusing time. And so there's something interesting about that.

It's like we're being reminded that you two have grown up together. But yeah, it's tricky. And what they did with the phone number was particularly, fairly effective because you are it had to be something really clever and insidious for you to actually even give it a second thought and so the fact that she is bold enough to go it's going to take you 10 seconds just look at this number yeah see if it's in there because the truth is you have to check it right because otherwise if it's not you you clearly in that moment now you know a hundred percent she's full of shit yeah so it's almost too brave to be a

bluff. And so you kind of have to look, right? Because if you don't, like I said, it could be the end of it if it's not in there. But the fact that then you see it, it's like, oh, now I'm not getting the full story. Yeah. Now it's really requiring I'm going to have to do some mental gymnastics to believe that this isn't something. Yeah. And all I can think of as if you were watching you find that phone number and his phone records is like, well, but why? And was that, was that like a number for an assistant at the sports agency that then Renee managed to like get transferred to her? Like what, I mean, it literally stuck in my brain. That's what I'm talking about.

Yeah. But it's so great because it's a, even if it's not what she says it is, it's a, it's a concrete piece of evidence of something. Yeah. Something. And that's really, really hard. And it's a piece of a story that Nathan hasn't told you about. And it's so hard when. when you're in a tricky situation like that where there's doubt and there's big feelings it's so hard to feel like information's being withheld from you because

information isn't withheld unless there's an angle to it yeah yeah so it's like oh if he is withholding it why because if you're innocent you just don't care you know like you're an open book and so yeah that that was very effective um but i want to go back to start of the episode because when i when Quinn walks out in her evening dress into Clay's apartment I had such a big reaction you know when parents say

I'm not mad I'm disappointed my note in all caps is did Clay and Quinn have sex the first night they hung out I think because I already I still feel so badly for David on how she gets in

the guy who just pun her husband, current husband, she got in his car in front of her husband and left. So when she walked out, I had two thoughts. I thought, first of all, she is way too perfect and made up to have had sex and slept on that hair. She looks flawless. So first of all, bullshit. But then second of all, because I think I want to like Clay and Quinn. Again, I'm looking at this as a new viewer, right?

But I just thought, that's a shuddy look, guys. Yeah. Like, be better than that. And so the whole episode, I found myself going, how have I not remembered that this was their origin story? This is a freaking bummer. Yeah. And it's not until later in the episode, we find out all they did actually was talk.

Yeah. But I did not like it. Yeah. As a viewer, I was pissed off. Yeah, I felt like, especially if there's a chemistry building up to just give it away so fast, that was, that wouldn't have been a good choice. It's so well done, though. Like, that feeling.

of, no, they couldn't possibly have. And you see how angry Nathan is. And even, oh my God, like the way I felt like my skin was going to peel off, when Quinn goes, we turned our phones off. I was like, what are you doing? Like, they really drew it out so well. And it's, and then it's so sweet when you get to the end of the episode. And she thanks him for letting her crash.

And you realize these are two people going through a hard time. that might just need to talk to each other, it was so refreshing. And it is really nice to know that even though they're in these clearly complicated times of transition, that they're not behaving wildly. I just, again, I think it's the difference between high school and adulthood. Like, I really felt for Quinn in the scene with you too joy. Like when you and Chantelle are sitting there talking about, relationships I caveat this what made me laugh was when you said if you and David can't make it how will Nathan and I ever because I was like we don't know these people we've heard about their relationship

they've been broken up since the day they started and we're comparing them to Naley who we've been in love with for seven years like writers that was the one fail for me I was like literally the audience doesn't know anything about these two but okay but I loved where the conversation went because you realize that you know you're you're sitting there trying to figure out what to do about your marriage and wondering if it's as strong as it is and your sister is sitting there saying i have stayed in a thing that is just dead for so long there's like nothing i can do to salvage it i've literally tried everything i don't even have feelings anymore and and those those two realities feel like the things that we all go through with our friends now like they really

feel like adult problems. And there was something very cool about the juxtaposition between our high school selves and our adult selves. I feel like the problems feel real and grown up. And that felt refreshing. The advice felt real. It felt, you know, relevant. What I'm thinking about when you're saying that, Rob, about how wild that was and also, like, that felt irresponsible and they're turning their phones off and they're, there's something about that that I actually really related to with Quinn that the need for autonomy is when you've been in an environment for so long that I don't, you know, again, like you say, we don't know their marriage. We don't know this relationship. Apparently it was great at one point. But when you've had to report back to somebody for so long to, and now you're staying, she's staying with her sister and now her sister's upper butt and like everybody's just like, where are you? What are you doing? to be able to be like, I'm going to take them as a grown up. I am not my high school self anymore.

I am not the girl who married this boy a long time ago. I need a moment and I'm going to make a choice as an adult woman to go sit and spend the night in this man's house and we're not going to sleep together. And even if we did, it's nobody's business. But I need a moment. I need a moment for myself. And all you all can just back off.

I was into that. Yeah. Yeah, I thought it was, I mean, that's self-care. You know, because these days everyone has access to you. all day. Yeah. And when you turn off your phone, you are actually taking a pause from that. So I thought that was great.

The one thing, it's funny, this is, this is something I did remember, was Quinn's line where Clay's phone is blowing up. Again, in this moment, I'm still also, like, pissed off in my head. Like, what are, they had sex. Wasn't our origin story friendship? Like, what, why do I not remember any of this? And then when she goes, wow, your phone's ringing a lot, I only have one thing that vibrates that much.

That was one of those lines. So if you were talking about, like, why? What are we doing? Why? Like, what are we, what human being? Like, what is, what is happening? What is the dynamic? What is relationship that in this moment, that's the line.

What? No, it's so inappropriate. Cudos to Shantelle because she delivered it as well as it could be delivered. So she did great with it. But like, what? It's so gross. You see the signature of our boss on that one. yeah well that's the whole thing right is like oh all the girls are skanks and sex fiends and they just

strip their clothes off in front of men and how are the men ever supposed to resist and it's like no no mostly people fall in love because they hang out and they become friends and then they decide they want to kiss each other's faces i don't i don't i've never met a human who like just you know does what alex dupre did in this episode no it's it's it's gg all over again It's just this absurd. Well, and it's recycling of things. Even the fact that in season one, Peyton makes the joke that Brooks Leopard bra is like a welcome mat.

And then the top of this episode, Brooke says to Julian, Alex's underwear is like a welcome mat. Wow. Good callback. Such a lack of creativity. It's so crazy. Jenna does such a good job as Alex. And she has shown that she is able to play all of the different speeds very well.

She can stick the hell out of the comedy, but then when she's given a sincere change, like a change up, she hits it. And then I just feel like this episode just undermined the out of all of the building we were doing to show that there's more there than meets the eye. Because we've seen hints of it. It's like it is, her over-sexualization is so freaking heavy-handed in this episode that honestly, it just bummed me out. And it left me just going, now she just seems manic Because she is so myopic in that scene with Julian Where it's just sex, sex, sex, sex. This thing she's so excited about.

She wrote, she loves, she respects Julian. She finally has his attention. They're talking about it. And she can't be bothered. And all she wants to do is just have sex with him And then take off her clothes. And then two scenes later, she's like, he's the only one who believed in the thing I love.

it's like this you just seem manic now because we've it's just it's just peaks in valleys with her well it's a really good indicator that it was written by a man who really has never had female friendships yeah and maybe a man who is drawn to women with trauma because there are so many female characters that he writes that this the over-sexualization doesn't read as powerful in control and and you know knows what she wants it reads like trauma and the fact that that's what's going on in the mind of the person that put all these characters on paper is so disturbing um and it was also i think a huge massive credit to the women playing these characters who were able to receive this material and transcend it

and create real three-dimensional women in spite of some of the stupid lines they had to say and, you know, compromising positions that they had to be put into. I kudos to every single woman on this show who was put into that position, truly. I mean, and Janet included. Yeah. And particularly in this episode, it's really incredible to see what Jana does with the material and that she has the wherewithal to lean into. some of that manic energy so that you know that there's something else going on here

and that whatever's happened to this person, she's essentially learned that this is the only way she's going to get anywhere and how sad. And that she knows she pushed it too far when you see her having a total meltdown about the cheesecake. And she gets into it with Brooke. And then she calls Millicent because she needs a friend. And the scene with Jana and Lisa is so freaking charming.

and they are so cute together and so funny and and it really again is just such a testament that this character can be put in these positions by a writer with no taste and still managed to be as you just said joy so three-dimensional so absolutely lovable like I have to go and berate her and all I want all I want to see is for Alex to win like I really want her to know what she worth. And technically in this season, she's my mortal enemy. And I love her. And like, that's because Jenna's Jenna. I was surprised. Julian walked into the hotel room. I was too. I was surprised. I was surprised. Especially because they have chemistry. There was a couple red flags that he just chose to overlook. Yeah. He, by the way, he did a great job in that scene. I think Austin has a

sincerity and an earnestness to him that sort of plays to a natural innocence and I don't want not naivety but like childlike innocence you know and it comes out in this scene where he's sort of just like hoping for the best and like maybe she made a mistake she didn't realize she should be wearing pants you know anything that a normal adult would be like you're an adult you know you know you should be wearing pants but um yeah he he looked the other way at a couple red flags but But watching him play the discomfort of that scene, he did such a great job. Yeah, that was fun to watch. It's fun, too, to watch someone, like, just in terms of physicality, someone who is as big

and handsome as Austin, be so physically funny and awkward. You know, like, he's an athlete. He's like a really, really, really good surfer. You know, that's a person who's in control of his body. and when he gets all gangly kind of like a great Dane puppy like when their legs are too long for their body it just like it almost makes me do a spit take laughing and I love that he gets to do that

because I do think so often on the show like all you guys were put in the like hot handsome hero position and I love when you get to be goofy I love when the boys you know get to be a little uncomfortable and seeing him play it like that reminded me a little bit of what we got to see in his scenes with

Gregory Harrison with his dad where you see that boy who just wants approval like you see this boy who just wants to make movies kind of battling with a man who's like what the hell is going on and why is this woman taking off all our clothes and I just I love that he went there I love that he didn't try to play it cool I like that he played it in a full awkward panic I thought it was a great choice. Yeah, I'm glad they allowed him to morph his character, too, because that's not the Julian that we met. That's not the way he started out. Yeah. And in spite of the fact that there was, it took a little time to transition into this maybe real version of Julian, what was underneath all of it, because you know he's had women throw themselves at him. He's been in that

position before. Yeah. But never while in love, I guess. Yeah. And so, you know, to see the real young I say but sort of the bumbley awkward version of him is really I'm really glad he landed there and that they let him land there because the other Julian was not interesting I don't think the earlier one was just

I don't know yeah we've seen a million of those exactly yeah well it's also interesting that Julian came in as sort of who he was Julian 1.0 and sort of watching him become the like softer, goofier, Julian.

I'm now realizing we do that with Clay, where Clay comes in and he's kind of mysterious, maybe is he a bad boy? He's broken, he's wounded. And by, like, later in this show, my weird flag is flying all the way up there.

Mouth has a very unsexy, unleading man arc coming up when they just made him gain weight for an entire season. That was his whole story. It's interesting. how it was almost like they kind of went, you know what, let's just neuter all of our male characters for like a while. Let's let's have them all lose their edge at the same time because truly Julian can't high five. Clay wears weird shirts and has a best friendship with his

chair. Yeah, Nathan's still a jerk deep down. He's still a manipulator deep down. Let's just discredit all the men. That's interesting. Did you notice that when we were filming it? Are you only seeing it in retrospect. Only in hindsight. Because also, Clay didn't morph. I truly wonder if that was what they had in mind for the character or they were just playing to the fact that in real life, that's kind of like my strikes on. I'm just silly and irreverent.

Yeah. Because they ended up using a lot of other stuff from my life. But I go Julian. Yeah. Like the fact he couldn't high five. What are we doing? What are we doing? Why is that a joke?

That is the creative equivalent of just going like. all the women are prostitutes. It's like, oh, did you spend five whole seconds brainstorming that idea for all the women in jail are prostitutes? It's sort of like, how do I show, how do it make him goofy? He doesn't know how to high five. Guys, he's been on earth for 35 years.

We all know. It's truly so weird. But it's interesting because I don't know if we ever talked about this, Rob. I know the girls and I did, but we got a lot of this sort of inside baseball on some of these decisions at the end of season eight.

because we didn't think we were coming back for season nine. So some of our allies in the writer's room really led us in on some stuff. And I know for a fact that our boss wanted to, wonderful word choice you used there, neuter Julian, because Brooke and Julian were going to get married. And by now, by that season,

our boss had completely lost his mind. And he didn't want a bunch of Julian's friends, like hot guys from L.A. and New York, from the film scene coming in for the pre-wedding and wedding episodes because he was so territorial about women on set.

So that's why Jamie was Julian's best man because our boss didn't want to bring in a bunch of hot young single guys to our set. First four days. To compete against him even though he has been married since he was 20. This is just like how William Shakespeare was so jealous of Macbeth

and that's why he did do it. all those embarrassing. Like, what are we doing here? What? You've created this world. How are you threatened by it? It's fiction. That's fucked up.

You're threatened by the characters that you're writing? Uh-huh. Oh, my God. Yeah, because there was a whole, Julian had an arc written, and they changed it. So I love the idea, though. It's so perfect. It's so dumb that just because Julian, is handsome, that his friends have to be handsome.

Like only pretty, only tens have friends, are friends with tens. Like, Rob, it's the CW. In what world? In the CW world. Still, though, like, he can't have, like, you know, like, um, it's insane. He can't have his best childhood friends. I just love the fact that, like, it's either hot dudes or bust. It's like, no, man.

Really? Not every producer's hot. You know, they don't have to all be leading men. It's just, it's just so silly. It's all really silly. But it is interesting that you see all of these shifts beginning and that we see Mouth sort of go back into this space where he's, even him, he's jealous of Millicent.

He's jealous of her changing. And of her, like, I don't know, becoming cool, being a model. Like, the word seems so triggering for him. And I think we're so lucky that we have Lee playing this role because you can see his nervousness and that he's maybe not even so proud of what he's saying. But I wonder why that was, I wonder why that was the choice to sort of shame Millicent's character for, you know, wanting to have an adventure. Yeah, that was really strange.

By the way, the introduction of Zero is not a size in this episode is exciting. I was glad to see I had forgotten where that showed up in the series so that was really speaking of humans coming in all shapes

and sizes that was really fun to see and this made me think about something too because it was weird that she was shamed

for wanting to have a new adventure but also the way she's going about it there's like an insecurity that's being fed that I

imagine we all can relate to like when you're the note i had was what it's like to be invited into something you never thought was possible that you might be invited into and then suddenly you're getting validation like it's hard to not get caught up in that and wrap your identity up in that especially when it's hits a particular nerve of any insecurity or of like blind spot that you might have uh that's tough that's tough to navigate Yeah. I didn't have any conclusions. It was an observation that I thought, that's pretty human, that she would want to get,

she would really be attracted to that. And why shouldn't she? Like, she's beautiful and how, but an amazing opportunity. But why is she feeling so guilty about it? Mm-hmm. I don't know. I mean, I feel a lot like Millie in that when I was invited to join the Drama Queen's podcast. I set you up.

I was, I was like, do you want to be in the big leagues? And I thought, here I was. I was going to be, you know, just amateur league. my whole life and I was worried if it was going to change me and it has I've become a terrible person to be around shifted your identity it has it's it's just merely allowed what has been deep inside me to just fully come out now yeah I I didn't understand I understand her hesitancy completely because like like you said it's a new thing do I deserve this am I going to get ripped on like you don't know what to expect my note with mouth was mouth he's a therapist

like you had a reaction go seriously just go talk to someone for 45 minutes because everything you're doing is just projecting your own bullshit onto her like that's your girlfriend you know who she is you obviously just have hang ups about what that job is go work out with someone and then be supportive you know yeah why wasn't the reaction like whoa what a bizarre and amazing turn of events i hope you have fun yeah good are you happy about this can a awesome yes congratulations yes 101 how do you feel Don't rain on her parade. I want to say that Chase and Mia are adorable.

Oh, my God. But the show couldn't help because they had to try to have sex in a plane. And, of course, make a joke about how Stephen has sex for less than a minute. But another great line was when they're at the runway and he says, would you like to come up for a flight? And she says, nah, musicians in small planes don't mix. Funny line. But even better is his response, which is, I guess I need to learn how to fly a bigger plane.

And I thought, oh, sweet button. And they both look, they're like so young, sweet Stevie. They're just so cute together. Wait, Rob, do you know the backstory to that? Was Stephen actually taking flying lessons? I can't remember. Why is he becoming a pilot? Yeah, super random.

No, that's not something Stephen does in real life. Okay. We're going to have to phone a friend and ask him. I can phone a friend. It's a sweet story for them. And I really love that while we're seeing so much sort of toxic content between men and women in this episode, I really love that this man is admitting to his girlfriend, oh yeah, I'm following my dream because I saw you do it. It's so simple and it's so sweet.

Yeah. And I don't know. I just, I really love that. It was about time. Bartending's great. If you really are passionate about it, I'm sure you could build a career off of it. but Chase didn't seem like a passionate bartender. He seemed like an intermittent bartender.

Yeah, so I'm glad that he's stepping into something new. Yeah, give Stephen something to do also. He's a fun actor to watch, the bar manager thing we've been doing for a whole season now, and his drinks suck. Okay, those are two bits, and we've been doing him for a year. So let's give him something else. One thing this episode did get right was Quinn's, Aunt Quinn's cereal.

Guys, can we talk about? What a gorgeous, delicious bowl of cereal she made for Jamie. Just a bowl of cookies and milk. Straight up. She just put whole ass Oreos in a bowl and poured milk over it and gave him a spoon. My mind was blown. I was like, how is this not on TikTok? I would devour cereal this way.

I think it is now because the kids are, I see this happen when I go to Maria's friend's house and pick her up after a sleep over, whatever. They're sitting around eating in Oreos in milk in a bowl. It's horrendous. It's basically like a melted blizzard. Yes. Okay. That makes me feel a little bit better. Which is perhaps my favorite ice cream.

But yeah, it's a lot. It's a deconstructed blizzard. Yeah. A pretentious chef would call it. Exactly. At a molecular gastronomy restaurant. I think there's, yes, I think there's definitely an honorable mention for the cookie cereal. And I would honestly like to give one because I know we're coming to the end of time to Dan and Rachel.

Rachel coming with that tabloid They were in so little of the episode Because this was such a big episode For the whole ensemble But those scenes With the two of them With the way they're plotting And then when Paul stays on the phone

After James hangs up on him And pretends he's talking to his son It was all just so, so good And it makes you realize Because it sort of triggered for me Oh I remember where this goes I don't want to spoil anything for the audience, but when he gets rejected by his son and then he goes to Renee to plot, you just go, oh, this is going to be terrible. And my God, it's a good device.

I loved it. It's a good device. That also is my honorable mention, but more specifically, Dan saying, I'm not seeing the licorice whips. Okay. This is my question I had for you all. Is this something because the licorish whips, the licorice ropes were very jarring. for me. Is this a thing? Do Dan and

licorice ropes have a history in the show? So random. So completely random. I don't know what it came from, but I do know that it was his idea at the end of the episode to be chewing on a licorice whip because I think they just wrote the line in and of course Paul was like

well, how do we wrap the loop up on the story? You know, excellent writer and director that he is. I was like, you can't have a gun on stage and not have it go off at the end of act too. Like, Where's my licorice with him? Yeah. So good.

I just thought that was really hilarious. That's my fun mention. When he says to the PA at the top of the episode, he goes, where the, where the licorish whip? Is it licorice whip or licorice, licorice rope? Is it whip? Oh, I thought it was licorice whips. That's what I heard. Let's call it that.

He says, where the licorish whips and the PA goes, oh, I'm sorry, I must have forgotten them. He makes the most uncomfortable choice where he leads, he's clearly pissed, but then he's pissed. He decides to lean in and just whispers, I forgive you. I'm like, guy, be angry at me because whatever this shit is is uncomfortable. Your forgiveness makes me

want to take a shower. Yeah. That's so good. Oh my God. That's a line I want on a T-shirt. I forgive you or licorice whips. That is funny, Rob. Your forgiveness makes me want to take a

shower. That is an A plus line. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you. you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history.

On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern Whirl, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn SageBurn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We have a listener question from Kat. She asks, what is one lesson you learned from portraying your character that has stuck with

you in real life? perhaps it's about snacks i don't know man it's such a it's such a good question it just requires so much proximity to the moment and i'm so far away from it years later i don't know i might have to think about this for a second do you guys have anything at the ready yeah what stands out to me honestly i and it's not necessarily about the whole course of our nine years but in this episode in particular um when milly runs in to work apologizing for being late and says please don't fire me And then, you know, I throw my arms around her and basically pick her up. And then she says, please don't have sex with me.

Like, I loved the comedy for Lisa. But one of the things I really like that we get to see in Brooke as an adult that I'm really passionate about my life is that. It's the running towards celebrating your friends, running towards saying you might not see yourself this way, but I do. that is something that is like the joy of my life is to celebrate my friendships and to brag about my friends and to big up my friends and to like you know be in their comments being like you look beautiful you're so hot you're so smart whatever it is like I love to cheerlead the people in my life that are doing amazing things and I really love that for all of the flaws of our show our characters got to do a lot of that for each other too.

Like, we were each other's biggest fans. And I'm proud of modeling that. I'm not so proud of like modeling everybody getting naked everywhere, but I'm really proud of that. That's true. That is a quality that you possess. I was always kind of uncomfortable with that. I think I grew up feeling a lot like my voice didn't matter,

like what I had any encouragement I had to offer, whatever I had to say, didn't really matter. So I just didn't say it very often. And it's been, as a mom, I've learned a lot about how important it is to, I still feel weird about doing it. Like, I'll go to a baseball game and I'm cheering and I'm like, it is so uncomfortable in my body to shout out things. I don't even really understand what I'm saying, but I'm like, I know I'm saying something and I'm cheering the team. But like, I feel awkward, like a faker, but I want to be an encourager. I just wasn't really taught how.

But I have noticed that about you. and I've learned that from you too. And from Brooke, that's so true. Like, we really all did. That's a great answer. Sorry to babble. It just made me think. I still don't have an answer.

It's a great quality of yourself. And I think it's just a great, it's an attractive quality in general. I mean, I have learned as an adult, like life is a team sport. So when someone in my community has a win, that's a team win. Yeah. And we celebrate that together. You know, it's like the old ad. a joy shared is doubled, a burden shared is halved.

And that's what I've found, you know, because for so long I was trying to do it as a solo sport. And it was like, it's just so much harder that way where it's like if we celebrate each other, if we share our troubles, everything is just so much easier and also more enjoyable. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That's great. I would say for Clay, it would just be embracing who you are.

Because I think, especially as we get on in the series, we really seek. Clay become very comfortable in owning who he is and really letting his sort of freak flag fly high. And that's something that as I've gotten older in life, it's like I used to be so concerned with curating everyone's experience of me and what have everyone thought of me. And there's a certain comfort and like, I've found my person. I've got my family. Like, respectfully, I don't give a fuck.

Yeah. I'm just going to do me. and my people are going to get it and be into it and that's going to be okay. I don't have to bat a thousand in making new friends every day. Yeah. That's excellent.

God, that's so refreshing. I feel like Haley's sense of her sense of loyalty and determination to see the best in people and keep believing in that was that had to have been a really healthy actually.

I don't know if it was healthy at the time, but probably hitting it in your muscle memory, you know, like that's what the weird thing. Like we've talked about this, the body keeps the score and how your body doesn't know the difference when you're acting and how that's true for the good things too. I think that's true for when you show up and keep portraying someone who is persistent in their loyalty and in their belief in the best in people. I think that definitely helped stick with me in times when I wasn't sure if I could trust. I wasn't sure how to trust and not letting go of that optimism

because when you've really been run over and life has really kicked your ass, the easiest thing to do in the moment is to just close off and be like, you know, never mind. Like none of you get in. I'm not letting anybody in. I'm done.

I'll just be by myself. And to start to like let the cracks in and let the light in and know that you just can't live your life that way. You can't live your life walking around guarding yourself from everyone even though trust it can be a really hard thing.

I think Haley was really good at that and I think that got into my muscle memory and probably really helped me when I needed it to be able to open up more. Yeah. I love that's what I have to say. That's a good question. It was. Thanks, Kat.

Should we spin a wheel kit? Let's do it. then we'll. I don't want to answer this. Most likely to not shower for a week. This is an absolute no. No, that's rough. Can I submit an answer, though, for consideration?

Sure. Dan Scott, when he hit rock bottom. Yeah, okay. When he's living in a hotel room, just drinking himself to death, I would buy that. Okay. Yeah. Tush. I have been there. I have been in a depressive state. I don't know if I lasted a week, but it might have come close. It just can't function. I could see that. I'll take the hit on that one. Not just out of like forgetting or neglect. Never. I wouldn't answer that. I don't think I actually know anyone that would fit the bill anyway.

Yeah. I'm with you, Joy. I've, I have battled depression. I've been in tough places. I, listen, hygiene I mean I've been the top of my to-do list, but that got done. I've never made it a full week. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I made a full week. But especially when you're depressed, taking a shower actually can make you feel a lot better. Yes. You don't ever step out of a hot shower going, I wish I hadn't done that. You know, it's not like having a cigarette or something. It's like, I used to have a shower. That was a waste of time. Never, not once.

Not once. It's so good. Well, what episode do we have next, guys? Let's see. All right, friends, next week we are up with Season 7, Episode 6, Deep Ocean Vast Sea. Hmm. All right. Sounds foreboding.

Thanks for joining us, everybody. Can't wait to talk to you then. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us. us on Instagram at Drama Queen's OTH or email us at Drama Queens at IHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens.

We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. You could be a smart girl, rough girl fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Drama, drama queens. It may look different, but Native Culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop.

That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.