Drama Queens - Bedroom Talks • EP119

Episode Date: November 1, 2021

Good Lucas! The Drama Queens dish on how much fun it is to see Lucas becoming the character we all know and love. The ladies sing Chad’s praises for his stellar performance in "How Can You Be Sure.���And the Queens are talking tattoos. Haley got one!? The Queens shared about their IRL tats, including some secret ink! Any guesses who’s it is? With Haley staying at Nathan's apartment one thing could easily lead to another, but this episode handles young love in anything but typically fashion. Our ladies heap praise on Karen Usher’s thoughtful writing for a young boy, and we see Nathan put Haley, and her heart, first. The Drama Queens are sharing memories from 2004, with their entirely new perspective now! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. From prologue projects and Pushkin Industries, this is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens.

We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama, girl, cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, smart, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl, you could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama, drama queens, drama queens, drama, drama queens, drama, Queens. Guys, I want to light a candle as a cleanse because we got rid of some bad energy and we got our show back. I'm telling you, that's the best Halloween gift we could have ever gotten, is this spiritually

clean, one tree hill episode. Oh. I love this episode. I loved it. episode. This episode had the same kind of like magic. Yeah. Remember when we all cried in the beginning when we first watched the episode where Lucas turns to Peyton and goes, hey, your art matters. It's what got me here. Yeah. Like, we got our guy back. Yeah, we did. This was, we got our show back. I mean, this was definitely back to echoing the first episode, echoing the pilot. Well, and we had two

major factors here. Actually, three major factors here that were fantastic. And we'll dig into all of them. Director, Tom Wright, is a favorite of ours. We had a female screenwriter, Karen Usher. You can tell a woman had her hands all over this. This is a good Karen, everybody. We love her. My God. And the third is that Chad acted his ass off in this episode.

He was so good in this. So good. Yeah. And so we're going to dig into all of that. Joy, why don't you give us the rundown? Give us the episode 19 rundown. Okay, so episode 19, we have the title, which is How Can You Be Sure? It was April 20th, 2004.

And the synopsis that we have, so history seems to be repeating itself in Tree Hill. Lucas has just learned that Brooke may be pregnant, and it's a big deal. They're trying to make a decision about their future. What are they going to do? Brooke is really stressed out, doesn't know who to go to. She seems constantly alone and trying to figure out where answers. are. Meanwhile, there's a lot to catch up on with Karen and Keith and his proposal. And also, this episode is big time about the SEX with Nathan and Lee. And the tattoo. And the tattoo.

There's so much to cover here. And I love the way all of it was handled. I am in love with this episode. This was delicious. Can we talk about the elephant in the room? Yeah. Let's talk about the elephant in the room because we're going to have fun on this episode guys this is going to be a long one elephant in the room is that we caught so much for talking about like Lucas's character in a judgmental light because we didn't like the carousel episode that one was oh that was a rough one it was a real rough on the cursed episode and the feedback we got one like we tried to laugh a lot of it off together um but there was some of it that was really angry That was nuts.

And it was like, you know, a loud minority. There were some people who specifically came at Sophia in a way that we're not going to do that, folks. Hard pass. It was pretty gnarly. Girl, I screen grab things. I'll send it to you. It was crazy. The violence, the verbal violence that ensued was crazy.

Well, and something I think is important for us to highlight, too. Like, I've really spent a long time thinking about this because I read some that, like, as you know, made me unable to sleep for days. I only know how to make sense of things that are very emotionally hard and triggering, whether it's for me or for you guys, or by the way, y'all read the news. Like, you know what happened to us on this show. Yeah. And I only know how to make sense of that stuff by, like, leaning into data.

It's why I know a lot about statistics. It's why I know a lot about, you know, by what age most women have experienced sexual harassment or assault. It's, I've had to learn about it to understand how it happened to us. Because we were smart girls, yeah. Indeed. And like, for us to go, oh, wow, we can see that a grown man who treated all of us that way in that episode in particular wrote himself and his, like, fantasies for gross male behavior into a character who we love.

Who's a 16-year-old, by the way. Yes, like, it's okay for us not to like that. and like oh god i'm like my chest is like shaking thinking about this like guys we don't want to talk about him but we hated what they made lucas do in that episode because it reminded us of a man who abused a lot of us yeah and to then as as i'm like well you know i'm trying to make sense of it with this that and the other have like fans sending me tweets from other fans saying like sophia's such a militant bitch we can't wait for her fiancee to realize this and leave her Hard mess.

Like, don't like it. Don't want it. Whoa, you guys. Well, and it just kind of defeats the purpose of a rewatch because we have such a delicious episode this week. Yeah. And we couldn't enjoy it in the way that we do if we didn't criticize the stuff that was bad. You know what I mean?

It's going to be both, kids. Let's all hang on for the ride. And we all remember Lucas as the Lucas in this episode as a good guy who showed up people. And so for us to realize that there was a period of time where the writers wrote him to stir the between us, we didn't remember that. It's blowing our minds. And P.S., we have a right to have our fucking minds blown. Kids, let's all hang on for the ride. Something that I also think is really important, you know, that Hillary, you and I have talked a lot about and Joy, you certainly witnessed for us. Like, Haley and Nathan started off as very beloved, but Bruce.

Brooke and Payton as characters were pitted against each other. And guys, Hillary and I have spent 18 years getting bullied about, like, being bad. Team Brooke! Team Brooke! We hate Peyton, we're team broke! It's so intense for us. And so don't, like, please just remember, we haven't seen this show in 18 years. We remember Lucas as the Lucas in this episode.

It's a good friend who shows up and who talks and who listens. And so for us, it was really mind-blowing to be like, oh, my God, he was. He was playing these girls. It was a revelation for me. I'm like, hold on a second. Yeah. So, like, just let us feel our feelings, please. And God bless us.

God bless us. God bless us. We learned so much in this first season. And we had such good people affiliated with this specific episode. It was Moira heavy. It was Tom Wright heavy. It was a female voice writing these monologues for these boys, Nathan and Lucas. And Dan.

Yeah. Great revelations from Dan in this episode too. Yes. Okay, Joy, get into it. Let's start with the Karen, the Karen and the Keith and Keith. Okay. So that, yeah, that was a pickup that Keith proposed at the end of the last episode. And wow, it got me thinking when Lucas went to talk to Keith when Lucas was making his rounds, because in this episode, Lucas just apparently drove around to everybody's house. But isn't that what you do when you're like anxious? When you're anxious, you're like, I'm going to talk to everybody. Yeah, it was great. But when he was talking with Keith, Keith was talking about how he knew Lucas when he was a baby and why he stuck around when Karen was pregnant. And it made me think about how long they had known each other, really. Wow, why did it take so long for Keith to make a move with Karen? It feels like it could have happened a lot earlier, but they got into this zone of

comfort of a friendship and i guess maybe it's hard to move past that once you are in that zone um but it it hurt my heart so much for keith and and um i really thought karen did love him and feel those feelings for him but i guess i guess not so karen says i had to go find the rest of me oh i've got to find the rest of me guys when when we watched that the three of us went it's such a profound moment for her. And again, what a testament to Karen Usher, the writer of this episode, who gave us a deeper perspective

on everyone's feelings and motivations and the things people were struggling with, but certainly for so many of the women on screen to talk about their identities, you know, for Karen to say, I've only ever known myself as Lucas's mother. This was my first time. being alone. And I want to find out who else I am. I mean, the world's a bigger place than

Tree Hill. Yeah. Yeah. It's so tough. But also, look, you can say that for your whole life. You can put off every new challenging experience by saying something like that also. So there's another side to this. It's not just to say, I need to find myself. There's an element of like, she's just not that into you in that statement because at the end of the day, if, if, If you want to find yourself, you can also do that in the context of a relationship that's going to challenge you and teach you how to grow in lots of new ways. Do it together. You could do it together.

We could go to Italy together. Exactly. But then we wouldn't have TV drama. Right. Of course. And also, you know, it's a whammy at the end then when she's given Keith this kind of gentle letdown. And he's like, you know what? You're right.

There is a bigger world and I'm out. Yeah. I don't know that Karen would have anticipated that because in her mind, when she delivers all that, she's like, you're home. I want to go out and explore, you know, and I can't really do that if I'm anchored to this place and to you. And so then for him to uproot unexpectedly is like, oh, you were willing to do that? Like, that's not anything I would have anticipated. I get it, though. he stuck around for 16 years, probably in hopes that this moment would finally arrive and he would

finally get the courage. And I love that he admitted that to Deb. He said, I've thought about this. Yes. I've imagined this moment and how it would go and how she'd say yes for 15 years, 16 years. And I never thought she'd say no. And to find out you spent, it's not that any of that time was wasted at all, but to realize like, oh, I I've been, there's been a goal I've been working toward that was never a real thing. I have to, I have to go now. There's kind of no other option. How do you just keep sticking around, like knocking at the door when you know the answers no? I like fresh starts.

I like pause and then play again. You know what I mean? But that pause button is an important thing in life. And I feel like we've all done that professionally. We've taken time off work for a little while. Or we've all, like, moved out to places where we have beehives, you know? That pause and restart moment in a person's life is really important because it's like we go through school, we do what everyone tells us to do, we've got this chunk of our 20s where we're trying to figure it out. And then you hit this like plateau in your 30s where you're like, oh, what the hell else am I supposed to do?

Like, I don't know. And so they're both at that pause and restart moment. And it's sad that they're not doing it together. But I don't know, guys, every time I see Keith and Dev together, I'm like, that's the win. Definitely some heat. It's sparkly when they're together. I loved her hair, by the way.

I loved her hair in this episode. That little half up, dude. Oh, that was it. That was the win. Barb was on full display, kill a man. She was hot. She's so hot. It's post-divorce hot.

Yeah. You know what I mean? For sure. When it's like, oh, I'm going to make him pay for this. oh you're coming over i'll just be working out well i think did anyone know when dan was going to show up because we laughed about that too so the whole time the whole episode dan is just popping in places popping into dabs house

driving by the clinic's weight room like he's just popping in he's always driving by at an opportune moment guys it's got to be a hereditary trait because lucas is doing the same thing at this episode it's just like i'm a hamster on a wheel and I've got to pop in all these places, but it works. It really works. And I think it gave us a device. You know, one of the things we were talking about when we were watching is like, and I know we've mentioned this to you guys before, but the folks we don't want to talk about who

were in charge of the writer's room were really active on those message boards that all our fans were active on. You guys made such a difference. You did because you guys, if you recall those who watched the show in real time, you did protest the Carousel episode. Y'all didn't like it either. And they heard it. And so what was so cool in this, it almost felt like Karen came in as a woman, the writer, you know, not, not Moyer's character. I guess I should be clear. Karen, the writer came in and was like, let's get the show back on track. Yeah. And basically gave, in the most beautiful and unobvious way, gave Lucas a device

to go around and apologize for his bad behavior and have that beautiful experience of growth. They pulled him back over the precipice of becoming a shoddy guy. Yeah, a Dan. Yeah, he had this awakening and he reconnected with his empathy and he went around

and they made very clear to all the fans like, we're going to fix this and we're going to fix that and we're going to, don't worry, we hear you. And honestly, I love that. Our fans are the best fans because they were like, Where has our show gone? This was so much about Nathan and Lucas really trying to do their best and be good guys and be the best version of themselves in all, in both of their respective scenarios.

You know, Nathan not wanting to put pressure on Haley to have sex. And I loved, I loved how the storylines crossed over and the conversations that Lucas and Nathan had in the locker room, even though it was 10. That fight was so good. It was so good. And you know what I loved in that locker room? scene, Tom did such a good job directing the boys together because you realize that Lucas is coming in hot over, did Nathan betray Haley? Also, I have feelings for Peyton. Also, I've blown up my whole life. And then Nathan, when he goes, why are you so tweaked? And you see it. Like, Chad played

the recognition of, oh, I'm... This isn't about the thing. Yeah, like, I'm really, I'm really coming out sideways here and I need to get my head on straight. And it's this episode where both of these boys are implementing the lessons they've been learning through this season. They're going, okay, I know better, I have to do better. How do I do that? And to watch boys learn that on screen in real time isn't something we got a lot of and it's beautiful. Yeah. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional.

It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls, became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball.

Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your, your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a massacist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why.

Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare, and frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador. Just to cover something up, you put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years.

I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yeah, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So a woman talking about boy characters, it was so obvious in this. Joy, let's go back to the Haley Wake and Nathan Ups scene.

Because one, we were all super pumped for nipple ring. But to hear this drumbeat over and over and over again of, I don't want to pressure you. Yeah. You know, we weren't talking about consent. in 2003. Right. That was not a conversation or 2004, whenever the how we did this.

Was Nathan's stance on that? What were your thoughts about it while you guys were filming it? Because it is a constant drumbeat the whole episode. Yeah. And I don't know. For me, I loved seeing that

conversation happening on television with young kids in this age range and especially with a kid like Nathan who had clearly been around and had been active. Yeah, very active. And it was just like something you do. And that he has fallen in love

and his feelings are now caught up and he has so much respect for her. It's not just like a girl is a thing for me to play with until I'm done and bored and moving on to the next person. This is, he's respecting her and seeing her as a whole person. And that is something to to model to young women that they deserve a man that treats them like that or a boy that treats them like that and to model to young men as well that a girl a woman is a whole being

she's not just something to play with you know so and at that age oh god your hormones and sex is such a intimate tender it's the most intimate tender you know emotional thing and you're exploring all these new things when you're that age. It's just such a sensitive topic. It's such a sensitive thing that I thought they handled it so well. I loved that Nathan just wanted to make sure that she was looking out for herself. And Lucas, by the way, the conversation that Haley has with Lucas in the cafe. In the cafe.

Yes. And he says, if you're not ready, just wait. And what was the thing he said, Hillary? Look past the moment. Yeah. Both boys say over and over and over again to her. Like, in different words, look past the immediate moment. Like, think about this long term.

And Nathan says that in the way he's weirded out about the tattoo. He realizes it's a forever thing. Lucas also said, I wish I had waited. Yes. Oh, my God. That line. Do you hear a boy say that? Yeah.

That really got me because we never heard boys say that. And what I thought was so interesting is, in the last episode, Nathan and Peyton have had this really kind exchange about their history. And then for Nathan to say, I really don't want to pressure you. And for Lucas to say, I wish I'd waited, like, those were foreign concepts to the way boys were talking on screen. And what I thought was really beautiful is even how our boys were talking three episodes before. Yeah. I mean, yeah, they were having sex in public. And now it's like, wait a minute. There are. consequences to this and what I thought was beautiful, especially given the way both brothers are

coming at this from their perspective, is it actually, because of how honest and vulnerable it was, it gave Haley away. And Joy, you played this so beautifully, where it wasn't this like preachy, black and white, girls don't want to have sex and boys pressure them. It was like, I'm in love with him and I am turned on by him and I do have feelings for him and I do want to make out with him all the time and I can't stop thinking about him when I'm not with him. But then when we're hooking up, I also, I want to stop. I don't feel ready. I hit a wall. I had never seen the fullness of all the feelings you're feeling the yes, the no, I'm scared, I want to, I don't want to, I don't know what to do. I hadn't seen that represented like this. And to see it in that,

and I don't mean a love triangle, but in the triangle of these relationships with her boyfriend and her best friend who's a guy, I just thought it was so tender and beautiful and good. I thought so, too. I loved being able to show that you can, it's okay to acknowledge your feelings and it's okay to acknowledge what your boundaries are and you don't have to understand them all and you don't have to argue them away or talk yourself into or out of them. If you're not ready, just wait. Joy, did you ever have those conversations in real life? Oh, sure. Yeah. I mean, I definitely did with boys that I dated. I mean, I definitely was a late, I mean, I hate even the term late bloomer because there's just, it's so like cold school. But like, I definitely waited a long time.

I was out of high school. And, and I dated lots of guys. I was living in New York City and I would date and yeah, I would get to a point where I was like, hey, listen, I'm not, I don't want to have sex. I'm just not ready. And some of the guys were cool and stick around for a little longer. And then eventually, like, would just kind of fizzle out. And then some of them were like, okay, well, I mean, that's great. That's fine for you, but I'm not doing that. So bye. And then that's fine, too. I mean, it kind of hurts. You go home and cry and eats my ice cream. But it's a good way to weed out the assholes. You know what I mean? It is. It really. Yeah. It really is. So even if you're ready to just say that you're not for a little while just to like weed out any

assholes. It's a good barrowder. Oh, my God. That's what Taylor Tomlinson always jokes about. She's like, I say, oh, I'm not ready as a test. And then they're like, that's cool. We can wait. And I say, Charlie, you've won. It's one of my favorite jokes in her special. Oh, my God. It's so great.

I love that. But you're right. Somebody who won't respect your boundaries, that's a sign that they don't, if they can't respect your boundaries, they can't fully respect you. So it is a good, it's good to be honest about how you feel. And watching Haley do it in this episode was so good. Yeah, I mean, it's a loaded topic. But I loved the way we handled it.

And I also, there was one more thing that I wanted to say about all of these storylines wrapped up, especially with the teenagers. I mean, look, we've got Jake with a baby with Nikki, who is like a wreck and seemingly sincere trying to figure her way through. And maybe she really is sincere. There's a lot of people who are a mess. They're sincere in the moment. And then they come up against their own blocks and they run away. too. Yeah. We've got Brooke dealing with the serious, sincere pregnancy scare and then finding out that she's not pregnant in the exact moment that Lucas calls her a slut. And she makes the decision

to sort of give him a taste of his own medicine, which I was totally fine with. Yeah, glorious. And we've got, you know, Lucas walking through his fears and anxieties, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? and Nathan and Haley and the tattoo and the sex. And in no way, through all of this mess, was there any shame? And I loved seeing people be able to be messy and walk each other through it and hold hands. And there was no shame. It was so beautiful to see that. Even though people weren't always making great decisions, there was still forgiveness

and space and love on the other side of it. So I just want to say that I was really proud of our team for creating that. Yeah. I think we are so lucky that we had Karen Usher and Tom Wright at the head of this. Yeah. Because they were two people who always brought the best feelings and the most intimacy. And, I mean, Hillary, you said it earlier. Like, Chad acted his ass off in this episode.

Oh, my God. Yes, you did. James. And those two people at the helm gave the boys space to be more than typical male archetypes. they pushed them to be vulnerable and look how and the boys loved it like look how beautifully they did it and then we all got to do it like

it was like everyone was their most you know their most raw and yeah just willing to put it all on the table and I agree I'm just proud of us well let's look at that a little bit because this was the first season of our show when we filmed this only like half the first season had come out at this

point. And so visiting directors, like visiting people, the writer's room, they didn't know us. They didn't know what we were capable of. You know, I'd been a VJ. You know, Chad had been like the bad guy on Dawson's Creek. So it would make sense that visiting directors would be like, oh, you know what he's good at, smoldering. You know, let's get him to do that. You know, they didn't know us. And so when we finally started to get people that knew us and thought, you can do more, You know, that's when we really were able to start turning in performances that were risky, maybe, and stretched the perception. Like, this episode for me, personally, was hard to watch because I have a preteen son. And we just walked through the city and he held my hand for a little while.

And then, like, and then let it at a crosswalk, he was like, oh, I'm holding my mom's hand. What am I doing? Oh, baby boy. He'll still, like, lay in my lap. But then he remembers, like, oh, I have, like, a mustache, you know? Oh, my God. We're right on that cusp. And so to see Lucas rebuff his mother and lie to his mother and, you know, game his mother in some of these past episodes.

And then to really need his mother in this episode and cry with his mother. Those two together were so, so good in this episode. That scene, oh, my gosh, the scene where Chad was, I mean, the whole episode he played. played this scared little boy thing so well, tone so well. That scene with Moira, that's got to be like, when we talk to Chad, we have to ask him about that scene because that's got to be a career highlight for him. I mean, she's, she's such an icon. And to be able to really do a real, we're not just talking about like chit-chat. This isn't just like, hey, mom, I'm home. This is real deep stuff. And to be able to play that with such a formidable actress must have been.

really exciting for him. So I can't wait to ask him about that at some point. Because Moira was intimidating. That was like, you know, you were going in with somebody with all the tools and how do you keep up? And you did. He showed up. Well, and something I loved about it too, Moira, and again, what space they were given with that writing, that Moira's reaction, you know, as Karen, as it's scripted, is that she slaps him. And then they run into his room and it's his childhood room and you do realize that this is a little boy and Hillary you said something really interesting when we were watching the episode and again this is what Karen gave us as a writer that Brooke stabbing back at Lucas when he stabs her in a way gave us Lucas back because it shook

him out of his I'm out experimenting and and it's like it shakes him out of the reverie out When she calls him Danny Jr.? It's so intense. I remember when I read that and I was like, oh, God, this is a lot. But it's so good because in a way, it's like he snaps out of the popular kid dream and he's a kid again. Yeah, that's it. And to watch them in his childhood bedroom with like that desk that he's probably had since he was 10. Oh, yeah.

And Moira delivers that performance. where she's saying, I'm just so scared for you, you know, and asks how Brooke is. Like, when have we ever seen a mom of a boy do that and say she must be so scared? Karen is so clearly terrified for these kids. And it's a perspective I haven't really seen when there's something where parents are talking about teen pregnancy. And her fear let Lucas be a little boy again. And it was just, oh, it was really amazing. What's good about this, it made him, so look, we all watched the episode.

We know what the end story is. Brooke was a false alarm, right? The sentiment of, oh, if you told me the truth, I wouldn't have had to admit this to my mother and my father and my, you know, like, my friend, I wouldn't have had to tell everybody about this. I wouldn't have gone to Jake if you told me the truth. it was a catalyst for Lucas to get his shit together and to do the right thing voluntarily. We needed it out.

We needed it so bad. He volunteered it. He could have kept this a secret for another couple months, you know? Because Brooke wouldn't have shown for like another three or four months. Totally could have kept it a secret. Could have played, you know,

I don't know what's going on. Instead, he gets right in there, right away. And it's like, we've got to figure this out because his identity of being an unwanted child is so triggering in this moment. The conversations that he had with Dan and then Brooke having called him Danny Jr., let's get into that. Let's talk about Dan. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture.

It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornales, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges,

we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a massacist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare, and frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together.

Was it an overblown distraction or a sense? sinister conspiracy. Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yeah, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know what I think is really important because, and we've talked about this offline, the three of us, that this is the Lucas we look back on. This is the guy we've always remembered and lionized on our show. Yeah.

Like, this is our good guy who's our empathetic leader, who's the author who writes the sensitive book. My end game? Yeah. My end game. He's painting's end game. And so one of the things I think that's been, to be honest, triggering for all of us is to watch when by some writers. Lucas was kind of hijacked. And we didn't remember.

They were experimenting with him. It wasn't, and it wasn't a good look. And we didn't, we didn't remember that there was bad behavior on Lucas's part. Honestly, we didn't. And one of the things I'm realizing that in our like, what, what did he do? What did he say? He said he had two girlfriends. How dare he?

You know, like experience in real time is that we haven't, we've always remembered Nathan being the bad guy who had a bad dad and then became a good guy because of Haley. in these episodes I'm really seeing the impact that again like 18 years later I didn't remember I don't know if you guys did of of exactly that that scar for Lucas of what Dan's abandonment did to him and it like what an impactful thing for a kid and and this is the episode where we really get into it where he's not running away from it where he's not like you know I if you at the insults where where he confronts it and he owns it and he uses it as his vulnerability when he talks to Brooke about what kind of dad he would never want to be when he confronts Dan about why

Dan was so selfish and how he knows he could never be like him. You know, he started to experiment a little bit and realizes he isn't Dan. It's such a beautiful moment where you see a character cement his identity as an individual. And I just thought it was like such a powerhouse. This is like a, this is a, if we made a top 10 list, like this would be on my top 10 episodes for Lucas for sure. I think for all of us. Also in the Lucas of it all, in the episodes that were written by men,

even when Lucas was going through something, he still found a way to flirt with everyone, right? And that may have been a direction thing. That may have been what was on the page, you know, like, whatever. When Lucas finds out, like, Brooke could be pregnant, and then he runs into Peyton again on the quad, there is not a note of impropriety. He is not flirty with Peyton in any way. Yeah. He's not like, it's when he says, what did we do?

You know, there's nothing conspiratorial. There's something conspiring about it. What's guys, vocab? Conspiratorial. Yeah. Is that a word? Yeah. Listen, we're going to have our Drama Queen's vocab list.

What was the other one that we had a while back? Scrapple. Scrapple. That's right. So, I liked that this shook him up and he realized like, oh, not every chick is a sex bot. You know, like, Peyton is Brooke's best friend. Like, eventually we're all going to be involved in this situation, whether we like it or not. Let's be thoughtful. He's thoughtful in that moment. It was good to see them in friend zone.

Yeah. And the thoughtfulness makes the misdirection later for Brooke and Peyton so delicious because it was the first time in a long time that this boy hasn't been flirting with her, that he's come to her for help. So then when Peyton turns around and says, yeah, he was so upset earlier, it's like she steps in it because it was so innocent. And you realize these people they're just missing each other and it's it's heartbreaking she's real dumb she's Peyton and good words conspiratorial we're just like oh you should see the thing instead of saying the around the thing um guys we have we have not talked about one big thing that happened in this episode what which was finding out that dan has this whole folder full of Lucas oh memorabilia

memorabilia cut out like mag art magazine cutouts you remember that right yeah i did well once it yeah once i saw it on screen i remembered but um no i remembered the magazine holder i don't know why it's just a prop it's like i was having some random visceral like you know what else i remembered is the sheets on the bed as soon as i saw nathan and haley in bed together in the apartment i had my you know like sense memory i remembered feeling feeling those sheets because they were all the same and it was the same you know, they all smelled like props, like they'd been stored up in the props. Totally. They smelled like the inside of a plastic bin.

Yeah, and they've been washed with the same detergent for the last, like, 10 years. Like, it was just, I don't know why, but that was some sort of sense memory hit me. And then when Dan was in his office, the magazine rack behind him, like the wooden magazine. What were you doing in Dan's office, Joy? I was never, but they would move props around. So that ended up in Haley's office or desk or something somehow. But I was like, I don't know what all of things in this. episode. I was like, I've got that

Forbes. When you said it, when you were like, I remember that. We were on to the next point, but I wanted to be like, is it because it's under the lamp? Like, it was lit. It was lit by one of the million lamps. It was such a funny choice. It was about so many lamps.

But anyway, I was pretty a pleasantly surprised to see Dan pull out this envelope with all those clippings in it. I loved, you know, when Dan went in to talk to Lucas in the weightlifting room. I was like, why is he in here? Why is he doing this? Making the rounds. Like, what's the point of this conversation? And then he turned the corner of like not just being a bad guy and being like your mother should have had an abortion and you should

never have, you know, been born. So I was like, God, what a fucking asshole this guy is. And then he says something, I can't remember exactly what the dialogue was. It was something about, you've got so much life to do it. You've got, yes, there's so much life ahead of you. And that's what it was, it was like that's, and that's what Paul was telling us when he was on the show a few weeks ago about that he was actually looking at, he was trying to, in his weird, sick, twisted way, he was trying to look out for Lucas in the best way he knew how and trying to get Lucas to see things from his perspective, even though obviously not considering Lucas's feelings or how it would affect him or impact him in any way, he was just messy. Well, and he really was genuinely so

happy to see Lucas when he came to the dealership. Yeah. He was like, you finally think I'm not a bad guy you know like are you seeing my side of things i was the dork that when he opened up that folder i'm like why does paula pictures a chat like i totally like i mean just enjoy had to explain it she's like it's lucas he's been saving them for years Hillary and i'm like oh right because he does secretly really care he's you know it's meaningful to him oh that's that's that's why dan's my favorite character he just keeps unfolding it's like an onion you just keep peeling the layers. Yeah. Well, and you know what's cool about it is it's kind of what we were talking about last week, you know, like when we were all saying our opinions on whether or not it would have

been an interesting choice to have had Brooke lie about the pregnancy from the beginning. Yeah. Sometimes the most misguided actions can produce the most interesting on-screen journeys. And what I loved was that we had, because they're 16, this really genuine scare, you know, the pregnancy test that at home one says it's positive. Oh, my God. And had you ever taken a pregnancy test at 16? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. No, I was Haley at 16. I've been dating my poor high school sweetheart for three years and I was like, I'm still not ready. Yeah. Good for you. Sweet angel. The idea of having to go buy one, you know. Terrifying. Yeah. It's a big deal. And I think about, I think about some of the beauty.

of this episode to me was the innocence and the fallibility. Like, Lucas had been fallible and gets his innocence back. And Brooks' innocence of being in love for the first time is broken. And then when he says to her, that hideous

thing of how do I even know it's mine. That fight in the parking lot is chef's kiss. So good. It's so good. You were awesome in this episode, Sophia. You really turned up. We talked about Sophie. is stamina because for the last like a lot of episodes, Brooke has been so hurt and so sad and

isolated in her room. And having to just sit by yourself and cry is so much harder than doing a scene where someone else is helping you work into it. And, you know, frankly, I'm pissed that Peyton's gotten the reputation as the cry baby because you're out crying my ass. I'm trying a lot this year. But so good. And like, you know, you. You can see the front of her being angry with Lucas and then how it turns at home. And being able to do both is a lot of work. And you make it look easy. You do.

Thanks. You know, it was really important for me to, to, I don't mean to be like hyperbolic, but it felt really important to do right by this storyline. If you were flip about it, oh my God. But to, you know, given someone. what we were talking about, like, girls who end up in this position and get, you know, left hung out to dry, like, how scary this is. And yes, how scary it is for kids in general, like, that she goes to him and says, I really don't want to have to tell you this, but who else am I

supposed to talk to? Like, it was something that I don't know what it was about it. It, I think, because we rallied and kind of rode so hard for our characters. Yeah. I was so heartbroken for her. Yeah. And to show that for someone like her who on the outside looks like she has it all together to really begin getting a window into Brooke's world where she's completely alone, she has no parental support, which she shared with Karen a little bit, which was why I loved that Karen in that moment also asked because how Brooke was doing.

It was so thoughtful. But, you know, this little girl who's facing this by herself. was something I wanted to honor. And in that youth and in that heartbreak, when he insults her and says the thing about her that... He knows what hurt the most. Yeah. Like the thing you're worried people would say to you

that also isn't fair because it's a double standard about boys and girls, but anyway. Carousel. Carousels are safe words. Hello? Carousel. Carousel.

Carousel. That's what she should have just said to him. Carousel! instead of I'm pregnant. But, you know, he stabs her and she stabs him back. And it's a reaction. It's not even a choice. And I thought it was beautiful because then she's sitting there going, oh, dear, I've said this thing.

And how do I take it back? And that scene with them, I thought, was so genuine because she did need him to apologize. but the apology it just it breaks her heart almost even more because she's like because he's the guy that she really loved like he's saying all the things

that made her love him it's hard it was really good that was really good writing for for Chad and I it was really beautiful in this sort of cycle of the Brooke and Lucas story

to essentially bring these two back together in that bedroom and they're covered in cuts they've given to each other. Yeah. Like they've hurt each other. And nobody actually says, I'm sorry. It's just that the communication is, it just shows it's not always necessary to say,

sometimes it's necessary to say the words, but sometimes you just have to hear each other and talk through. And I loved that he was so willing to just say, what do you want? I will be here for you. I will do whatever it takes to be a great dad. I want, I want to be a good guy. I want to do the right thing. That's such a beautiful observation, joy, because you're right.

They don't apologize to each other verbally, but that scene feels so apologetic on both their parts. And they are sorry and they're yelling and they're honest about all the shoddy things that have happened between them. And I actually think that the unsaid but obvious apology of it all is what lets her finally sit alone and just cry. Yeah. And it's going to let them be okay with each other in the future as the show moves on. Because they become such good friends. Yeah. The comedy, the comedy that evolves for Brooke and Lucas, like, over the years is so good and so funny.

And I do think you're right. I think this really lays the foundation for an honest friendship in the future. They both know that nothing was based in malice. Yeah. You know? And if you can get through really hard things like that with somebody, you know, you kind of know that you can get through anything. And them being able to have that as a foundation of like, yeah, we're not. We made it through some really hard shit and look how young we are and we figured it out.

Like, we can do this. Well, and I like that we got to model it too. There's a lot we got to model really well in this episode. The conversations around consent with Haley and Nathan. Oh, my God. The honest apologies and like the owning of your failures and the ways you've hurt people. And I'm so curious how when we think about like the beginning of the repair of the rip for Brooke and Lucas, I'm excited to see, because we still see the rip. for Brooke and Peyton, I'm excited to see how these two friends begin their repair because

they remain in the end game of it, family. They remain best friends. Well, our daughter's middle name is Brooke. Yeah, you know what I mean? Exactly. How do we go from this? Yes. Baby Sawyer, Brooke. It makes me feel emotional. I love it. Um, I think the title of this episode is like bedroom talks because the bedroom talks in this episode are so strong we've got the nathan and haley bedroom talk where he spies the 23 for the first time we've got the brook and lucas bedroom talk we've got the karen and lucas bedroom talk and then we have the haley and peyton bedroom talk i loved that too i love we haven't even discussed that yet you said the most lovely thing to her well first of all haley pouring her heart out in a way that isn't like she's just being so

honest. Before a girl loses her virginity, she thinks most girls think about whether or not they're going to do it for a very long time. It's something that gave me hives and a horror show. I was so nervous that I'd built up this reputation about

being like, I'm a clean teen. I really had a club called clean teens in high school. I was like queen virgin. And I dated a boy who was not. And I remember crying in his lap, just like laying at a party. Like, I just need you to know it's never going to happen, like, ever. So you can dump me now if you want to,

you know, and he, he was lovely. He didn't, which was nice. That, like, makes you feel nice when you take it off the table entirely. And they're like, you know what? I like you. I just like being around you. And Nathan says that. So Haley laying it all out, I think, was important for girls to see. Yeah, I think so, too. culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence.

That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi.

Nine times out of ten, they called me a massacist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why. Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare. And frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together.

Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yeah, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts. or wherever you get your podcasts.

I loved that the thing that Peyton says at the chalkboard, you were painting H.J. plus NS equals heart. It's so cute. And you said, I say something about how much I'm in love with him and how I feel and all those things. And you say, well, then you went further with him than I ever did. because just acknowledging that there's so much more to a relationship and a connection than sex. And I think Haley really needed to hear that.

Haley got a lot of good info, good advice in this episode, I think. Which is so nice because she's so often, the voice of reason, supporting everyone else. That's a great, yes. That's a good insight. To watch her get supported and poured into. And it's like the one place she feels lost. Yeah. And to get lots of information, you know, this information from Peyton, that nugget from Lucas, all of these things so that she can understand why she feels conflicted and that that's okay.

And as you so wisely said, Joy, that there's no shame in that. Yeah. I mean, you know, Hillary, you're talking about how intense it felt for you to think about it. I remember my own anxiety is like, you know, I hate that girls get so shame. that they get hives thinking about real I or won't I? Like, that's heartbreaking. Guys, it's never going to happen. Sorry, I'll be a virgin till I die.

Honestly, we would go to parties. We would go to parties in high school and not drink. And, like, at some point in the party, when other people started acting stupid, we'd yell out, clean teens. And then the other girls would yell out, versions for life. And that was like our thing. For life. Oh, my God.

It was like the call and response across a party. And we thought it was so funny. Because we were owning the thing that other people could have picked on. Oh, my gosh. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, girls get hives. There was one more thing, too, that I wanted to say about Haley's tattoo because it just really started making me think what an intro of, like that.

There's so many layers in someone who would get a tattoo and says 16 years old and hide it from everyone, even her best friend. It's literally just for her. Yeah, that takes a certain amount of, I don't know, I'm at loss, I'm a loss for vocabulary where it's doing more coffee, but it, has that ever happened? Did you get a secret tattoo ever? I never got a secret tattooing. That takes a certain amount of introverted that I don't have. Like, that's a level of, I need something that's just for me and no, or maybe it's just confidence, a level of self-confidence that I didn't have where you can just be so comfortable that you're like, I'm getting something. I don't need to show anybody. I don't need to.

Talk anybody about it. I'm just, it's just for me, so y'all can all bugger off. It's kind of great. I haven't thought about it so much in that way, but I'm realizing like, oh, IRL, I'm Haley when it comes to tattoos. Oh, you are, because you have all those white tattoos that nobody knows enough. I have a, yeah, I have a lot of secret tattoos. You guys, I have seven tattoos and only one is in color.

That's awesome. And I love, I love when I show them. to people who I, you know, trust and love who go, how have I never seen this? And then they never unsee it. But no one knows they're there and they're just mine. Yeah. But to do that as an adult, that's like, that's wonderful. But as a kid at six, I can't, oh my God. Because you met, like, we're all so desperate to be seen, liked, unknown, affirmed, approved, all of that stuff, that for somebody to just be like, yeah, no, I'm, she's like on another planet. It's just so wild. such a bold choice for a teenager a she had to figure out how to get permission or get that illegally

and b yeah i mean i i started getting mine at 23 and truly i think part of it was was to make sense of how intense all the eyeballs on us because of the show felt it gave me a way to make my personhood feel like it was just for me again oh interesting your body's a secret again That's smart. That's kind of cool. Like there's a thing you don't get to look at or touch or comment on or know about. Where are we going to put our drama queen's tattoos? I can't stop thinking about it.

I have ideas. If we want to talk about adults making choices, you know, we've been wishy-washy on how old Nikki was. Oh, my God. In this episode, she talks about tuition money. So we know she's like 18, 19 now, right? College somehow. I would say she seems like 20. she seems old thing yeah i mean they they certainly wrote her to feel that way they hired

emmanuel she's got such good eyebrows and eyeliner like she looked like a grown-off she okay so because she used to model maybe she still does i don't know um and they would need to sort of paint her eyebrows in different ways like sometimes it would be really extreme to the side or like all the way up or whatever so she plucked her eyebrows from the arch out like toward her ears arch out they were completely gone there was no eyebrows there it was just the main part and um i had this when i went to lunch with her i just had this conversation was like what's going on with your eyebrows because i'm so no filter yeah and um she told me yeah it was because i went home and i plucked out my eyebrows from the art you did because i was like she's so cool

she is so cool oh my god that she is you know we get to see a human side of her in this but you guys Just so you know, we were all so intimidated by Emanuel because she was cool. So cool. Remember those little mean poodles she carried around with her? Oh, my God. Why don't we? We need to have her on. Can we give her?

She's got to come on. Yeah. She's cool, man. She's got to come on immediately. And over the years, people have always talked. I've gotten the note a number of times that it looked like Peyton was going to kiss her before she, like, slapped her when there was some tension there. She's a babe.

And we, I think we wrestle in the next episode. if memory serves me. I'm excited. Yeah. Yeah. We see Nikki's humanity. We see her humanity and it is really interesting. You know, we touched on this a little bit in the last episode, but there is something, one of the things

that creeps in, you know, again, that came from a room we didn't have control of that is weird for all of us, guys, is the reality that Nikki's in college and Jake is 16, that she does Again, not written by Karen, the wonderful writer in this episode. Yeah, she inherited this information for sure from someone else, but the someone else cracked a joke, you know, wrote a line for Nikki to say, oh, I like him young. And if she's 20 and Jake's 16, like, we're talking about something that's not okay. And I just want to say, I know that that has been a bit triggering for some fans of the show

who are realizing this information as we are. Because when we were kids, we didn't even track it. No, we just totally overlooked it. Because we were all around the same age, but, you know, if you have experienced something like that, you know, we don't mean to be redundant, but it does feel important to continue to remind ourselves and all of you guys that if you've been through something like this,

there are resources. You can reach out to organizations to help you. There are wonderful online and in-person. and support groups and therapy groups and individual resources that you can reach out to if you need support to kind of process something like that. Yeah, just to even ask questions. Yeah, we don't want to be flippant about a thing

that, you know, in a court of law would be a statutory rape case. It is hard for us to realize that these were some of the things that were not well modeled on our show. Yeah, because when she was a C. you're in high school. What was Jake? Like a freshman, an eighth grader? I don't know. Yuck. I mean, even if she was, yeah, either way. A senior when he was a sophomore? Because we're all

supposed to be, we're all supposed to be freshman or sophomores right now. So we're all juniors. Sophomores or juniors, yeah. Yeah, and Jenny's, Jenny's about a year, maybe less. So it, oh my God, Jake was like 14 when they hooked up. See, that's rough. Maybe she was 17 and then like, you know, had the baby the next year or something like this is bad math yeah it doesn't it just doesn't feel great for us no matter what and and you know i think the three of us definitely went oh and she said i've got spare tuition money we were like uh-oh we we got to we got to talk about this so but regardless in real life emmanuel is fabulous wonderful smoking hot and so cool that she made joy pluck her eyebrows out yeah when's the last time anyone saw emmanuel

I don't know. Has anyone seen her recently? I don't know. I haven't. We're going to get her back. When she drops the bomb on Lucas, that she's Jenny's mother, his reaction is so good. So good. They both played that really, really well. They really did.

They really did. Yeah, there was just no, it felt like there was no acting in this episode. You know, sometimes you're doing a show. You're doing 22 episodes and season after season, and it can start to just, sometimes it just feels like you're at a desk job. You're just kind of off. when I'm phoning it in. You know, you know, when you're phoning it in. It's like, yeah, I got lunch and, like, I'm supposed to be out of here by noon.

And I got a lunch meeting. Like, let's just get this over with. There was no phoning it in in in this episode. Everybody really showed up. You know what scenes do that? The scenes where you're supposed to be acting like, this is the best time ever. Those are the scenes where I'm like, ha, ha, ha. Are we done?

Yeah. Fantastic. Those scenes or the ones where you're, like, supposed to be at a club raging, except there's no music. And everyone's just fake. And it's 8.30 in the morning. Outs, oz. To the wrong beat.

Oh, God. Those are my, those are my nightmare. Those are the ones where I'm like, all right, Chan, get it together. Get it together. Think about it. Well, guys, should we, like, maybe look at fan questions and spin a wheel? Yeah. The one thing I want to say about the end of the episode, I love how this episode ended because Lucas thanked his mother.

Yes. His mom, thank you. If you're out there, thank your mother. That was such a good. note, especially for all the crap he's done in these first, like, 18 episodes, you know? Yeah. It was a lovely way to end. Yeah.

I've gotten to work with Tom Wright on two other shows. Have you guys gotten to work with him? No, I haven't. I would love to. He did white collar, and I was like, oh, my God, Tom, I'm so happy to see him. And then he called me, because he was doing an episode of Castle. And he wanted me to come in and play a Kim Kardashian ripoff. I remember that.

No one would have ever thought of me to do that. But I think what we see in this episode where they let us do things we'd never done before, a good director will see the potential in you that no one else has ever seen before. So yes, that's our Tom Wright talk. Let's do a question. We've got a fan question from Bia,

which I think is actually so genius. I wouldn't have thought about this. But we've talked in the earlier part of the episodes about how Chad had a tattoo on his shoulder and they needed to figure out how to cover it so they gave Lucas a tattoo. And Bia is asking, did Joy actually already have a tattoo? And did that influence the Haley Tattoo Moment storyline? Joy, you've got tattoos, but I don't think you have one there. No, no, no, no. That was just painted on. That's just me sitting in a chair and them spraying me

with a stencil. Wait. Yeah. Oh, it was a stencil. It wasn't like a temporary. It eventually. It eventually was, but the first, because we only saw it twice, and we didn't know how many more times we were going to see it. So I think the first two times it was painted on, and then they might have gotten a stencil. Because, I mean, if you see it, it looks like a sticker. It's so great. And, you know, it looks like when they would paint your tears, your face with the cheerleading the R on your cheerleading cheek. Yeah, it was, I think it was the exact same paint, the same everything. And they just put some hairspray, some aquanette.

We filmed it. We filmed on film, you know? So everything was kind of soft and you could like fudge things, like stubble and like tattoos. Now that we shoot on HD, if you don't actually tattoo it on the person, it looks so fake. So it's a different medium. That's hilarious. It would have actually been kind of amazing if they had had to cover you having a tattoo with a tattoo. Like it just would have.

Oh, that would have been funny. No. I don't have one. But did they? Because you have that cool tattoo on your foot. Did they cover that up for Haley? Or did they let you have it. No, they covered it up most of the time.

I think there were eventually, I mean, there were times, there were seasons where I was like wearing glasses in an episode randomly because I just like had my glasses on set and I forgot to take them off the top of my head. And then they were like, oh, joy, continuity. You're wearing your glasses. I was like, whatever. I'll just put them on my face. And then now Haley has glasses for like, suddenly she's got bad vision when she reads

for like an episode. And there's stuff like where you'll see my tattoo And then it goes away And then it's there I mean continuity is a whole life of its own On this show Yeah When you're working 18 hours a day

I mean it's impossible Yeah You do start to lose your mind a little bit I feel like they let you keep your foot tattoo Once we came back after the time jump Oh yeah it might have been Yeah it could have been We'll see when we get there

I don't know Yeah when we get to season five We're all gonna be looking to Joy's feet Beah we will have an answer for you in season five Right. All right. Here we go. Spin in the wheel.

Superlative. Most likely to be a social media influencer. Bevin. Bevan. Yes. In like real life and in pretend land. Because she's so likable. Yeah.

Like Bevin is the girl who could do a TikTok that you're like. like, oh, my God. Yeah. And, like, I'm obsessed with this company that she has started back in Wilmington. Yeah. What's that? I don't know anything about this. Recess.

Yes. What? It's so cool. Bevan had been, like, this high-ranking soul cycle instructor for years. In New York. Yeah, like at the major facility here in New York. And she moved back to Wilmington and the pandemic and opened up recess, which is, you know, it's a gym where you do things that are, like, fun, actually.

Like, gyms can be so toxic and weird. Yeah. And Bevin is fun. She's walking fun. Yes, she is so fun. Yeah. I mean, we were, like, campaigning for years to get Bevin on S&L. I still stand by that.

I think she'll crush it. Oh, my gosh. But it's been so cool to watch her find her passion. And then, like Hillary said, you know, become like a top person in SoulCycle, which is such a huge company. And then go and start her own. Like, what a legend. Yeah. She wins.

she wins i like it when we have an easy answer no duh it's true come back next week we've got episode 20 what is and what should never be i don't know what happens in this episode i'm like i don't either catching up with everyone um but we've had so much fun with you thanks for watching this episode with us if you're not watching along we encourage you to do so or at least just this episode because this one was gold this one's so good yes this one's so good maybe watch episode twice because it's it's really that good oh see you guys later bye love yeah hey thanks for listening don't forget to leave us a review you can also follow us on instagram at drama queens o'ttch or email us at drama queens at iHeartRadio dot com see you next time we're all about that high school

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