Drama Queens - Clean Teens with Elisabeth Harnois • EP412

Episode Date: January 30, 2023

Elisabeth Harnois is guest co-hosting this episode. She jumps right in with both feet as she, Hilarie and Sophia recap an episode full of betrayal and resolve.  Plus, some character/actor stories mirror each other and a fan question that leaves the girls pondering an alternative to a famous storyline. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl. Drama queen cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. It is Season 4 Episode 12, Resolve.

Let's talk about tongue, baby. Let's talk about you. So much tongue in this episode. Oh, my Lord. Loved it. A lot of tongue kissing and a lot of, like, food on mouth stuff. Sloppy, sloppy episode. And we have a good friend here to help us get through it.

Ladies and gentlemen, our friend Elizabeth Arnois, our guest host with us this week. Hello, everybody. Hi. So excited to be here today, hanging with you girls. Oh, my God. I've been listening. Our Clean Teens meeting. So when did this air?

What the hell happened this episode? Okay, kids, let's go through our stats before we really dig in. This episode originally aired January 4th, 2007. I have no idea if in the winter of that year people were having food fights, but we sure were on our show. The synopsis as written, which, you know, is sort of accurate, but might need a little work is with senior prom only weeks away. Haley's frustration over her injuries and her, you know, growing pregnancy and the hormones coursing through her body are really overwhelming for her. Skills

and mouth hatch a plan to help Nathan earn money for the big dance by stripping. Gorgeous. Brooke betrays Rachel in order to get closer to a new guy. I mean, or is she just sticking with the clean teen alibi? Yeah, what betrayal? I don't know if it's a betrayal, but whoever wrote this felt that way. Peyton and Lucas resolved to be happy and to be bakers struggling with her drug addiction to be bakers struggling with her drug addiction

Deb makes a choice it's a very dark choice the beautiful Moira Kelly directed this episode it was written by Michelle Fertney Goodman who I don't believe was with us for very long I wish we had known what the sort of board told her to do for this episode

that would be interesting Elizabeth once the last time you watched this show Yesterday. Well, yeah, duh. Not to prep for this. You're like, actually, I watch this every year. No, I know. I know that's what you meant.

It's been probably a couple years. Yeah, a couple years. I always have cousins who, you know, they love the show. And when I see them, they're like, let's watch an episode. Oh, that's so cute. Yeah, it's very sweet. It's very sweet. So sometimes I watch it with them.

Otherwise, I haven't seen it. Yeah, in a while. We were just at that convention in Wilmington, and there's like a good number of people wearing clean teen shirts. I know. I'm into it. I love it. The virgins.

The sweet little babies. Yeah, I don't even know where to start with this. I don't either, but what I am going to say is, like, in general, the clean teen storyline, because we've got our stats here because our producers are great. And this was six episodes in season four. But when you think about the impact of the clean teen storyline, you know, and Hillary shared a little bit about where that came from from her own high school experience and, you know, what worked and what didn't in terms of what the writers did with it. But to think that all these years later, you know, just based on six episodes, it's still, it's like an iconic moment in our show's history. On your show, yeah.

And I'm grateful that like when I got to, you know, being on the show that I had one of those moments. Yeah. You know? Because it is. It's fun when it's something that comes back around. from a mostly good experience, you know, a memory that you don't mind visiting. I love that. We talked about it last week, too. I feel like you literally walk into the show with the face of an angel. Like, you just like cherubic beauty. And it, there was something where

I was like, yeah, I'll do whatever she tells me. Right. Yes. Totally. Like, I had the feelings I think Brooke Davis felt then watching this this, uh, watching this storyline kick off. That's your magic Liz. You look like a good influence and then. Oh, I knew. And then. I am for the most part. You know, I kind of was that girl a little bit in growing up because I was raised Catholic and um, I, you know, was a later bloomer. I mean, you know,

is like I wasn't like I'm one of those 15 year olds having sex but you know what I mean I was a later bloomer yeah I didn't have the ethos of no sex before marriage but I was raised to to think that way so taking this role was kind of interesting I think my mom loved it until she realized um where it was going because you couldn't possibly just be a clean teen and you had to hide hide a dark secret yes but of course that made her so much more

interesting I guess but yeah I was watching it too and I felt like wow I did have a very young trurubic face back then

like all of a sudden I'm like oh my god I ever looked like that it's insane you look the same you do no no I'm talking like I was like

I didn't recognize myself for a second it's weird I don't know maybe it's just because I don't watch myself a lot. I'm not, I'm not, you know, I just don't watch myself a lot. So I don't know.

I feel like, well. All of our voices are different. Like every, because I feel the same way. Yeah, we're talking a bunch of salty broads now. No, it's, you know, like, sometimes in this episode where Peyton's having to be all happy and dorky and shit, I, like, I don't know that kid. I'm like, oh, who's that? Yeah. We all have such higher pitch voices and our mannerisms are kind of like, I don't know, green. And we're just. babies. It's crazy that anyone thought of us as anything other than, like, children.

Yeah. Precisely. We're babies. Yeah. What do you remember about getting this phone call to come on the show, baby? I remember my origin story is. It all began. Yes. You know, it was actually

you two lovely ladies, you and Danielle, I had worked with you each separately on two different films. And I know that you had sort of, you know, passed the idea along to our producer, to our boss. And he seemed open to it. So I felt very lucky. It wasn't like I had to audition. It was like they found something for me to do.

And that was lovely. And you gave me like the sort of like first, you know, new kid in school rundown. things. Some of that involved a little warnings, you know, a few warnings, if you know what I'm saying. Yeah. And and so I went into it very excited, feeling incredibly lucky to get to work with such a great cast and young talent, but also a little bit nervous, you know, wanting to be accepted, but also not knowing what my boss was going to be like, you know? Yeah. And, the first like a few days were good

if I'm talking about like my literal first you know getting the call I was excited getting there I was excited then I had to have a dinner with my boss and it ended with him

inappropriately asking to come up to my where he was putting me up and I felt this weird just to like have some tea and talk more because we were having quote unquote good conversation about the character so um I kind of felt like okay I don't know I felt very I didn't know what to say so I

was just like sure you know I felt very uncomfortable and it was literally my first week like the first few days and um so that kind of and then he ended up like uninvited massaging my feet oh Liz oh no yeah Yeah. So that was my, like, that's where I, like, became even closer, not that I could have been, but even closer just with the group of you guys, because it was like, it just made me understand so much more. And also, like, it didn't take away my joy of, like, being there. And I also knew I was a guest star, like a recurring guest star. I knew that I had a limited amount of time that if anything else did, awkward did happen. And I didn't have to be there forever dealing with that. But that was also a part of it, unfortunately, was that introduction. And it came swift and quick. And then I was like, that's not happening.

And I sent him out the door. And he didn't, he wasn't as gross with me after that. Because I kind of was like very like, yeah. But everything else around it was just a fabulous experience. Everything else about it was really, really fun for me. because I got to be with wonderful women, wonderful strong women, who are, you know,

kind of going through the same things. And, you know. Well, you always had really strong big sister energy for me. Like, when we met, we were doing a movie, what was that movie called?

Solstice. Solstice. Yeah. It was like a New Orleans voodooed scary movie. Yeah. And Liz, like, literally on day two, it's like,

we're friends now. Come with me. And I was like, oh, okay, great. I love this. Sorry. Tell me what to do. And it was great, you know.

And so having someone, because I always had to be kind of the rough and tumble one or like the, like the, you know, grumpy one. Yeah. I loved whenever you were around because you were like, baby, sit down. I've got this. And so having you come into this tornado and be like, calm down, girls. I'm going to show you how this is done. No foot rubs. No, I don't know.

We're done with the foot rubs. It was. No, but it was good to have somebody come in and validate, like, oh, yeah, everything that you guys have been saying is right. If I'm being totally fair, I thought what you were saying was like, I was like, there's no way it's, there's no way it's as bad as that. If I'm being totally honest, and that's back in the culture of women not being believed. I didn't believe a fellow women that it could be as bad as it was being described to me,

which is the craziest part of it, you know, even though they were friends. But what I think makes sense about that is that when you hear it and someone is telling you a story about how overt it is, how consistent it is, how out in the open it is, it's, I don't even think it's that you go as far as thinking, you must be exaggerating. I think what we want to believe is it can't be that bad because someone would do something. Sure. Someone in the room would do something. That's exactly what it was. So I'm sure he's gross, but like maybe because he was really inappropriate with you, now everything feels inappropriate even when maybe to an outsider it doesn't look like it.

Because if it looked inappropriate, someone would do something. And it's such a rude awakening as a woman when you realize that that is simply not true. And especially in industry when you are part of the machine that makes a product and your being mistreated could potentially damage the value of the product and you realize that your humanity is less valuable than an hour of television than the product to every adult in the room and you go oh we're alone here and that is like that's that's a growing up that nobody you know nobody asks for and nobody wants but you know Hillary and I've talked about this so much my experiences on another show people were like it couldn't have been that bad and I'm like oh but it

was there must be a misunderstanding it's not a misunderstanding it's that everyone's so afraid yeah exactly like what you said nobody on the outside of a situation wants to believe that something would be allowed to go that far without intervention and that is really what it is and as a female i'm sure that's where i came from was maybe they're sensitive about this because you know if it was really that bad that someone would intervene and one of the adults would intervene like oh my god there is no one to intervene and he is the one that you would go to if someone were doing this to you except he's the one doing it so what do I do you know it felt so validating to have you there though because you had been working since you were like in diapers and so yeah for all of us this was really like

our first big job but we didn't know any other reality no you like we grew up watching you in alice and wonderland was a Disney channel yeah oh my gosh really I didn't know Yes, yes, you did. Listen, I watched Alice. I don't remember that conversation. I for sure watched Alice, because there was what, the dude in the rollerblades. Was that the mad hatter in the rollerblades? It was the white rabbit because he was always late.

Yeah, right. So he could not be wearing real shoes. He always had to be skating in. In the 90s, the rollerblades were the jam. They were hot, yeah. Guys, I still have a pair of rollerblades in my garage. I don't ride them, but I have them. I can't bear to let them go, but I,

I don't think I've been on them since junior. I don't think you should. It seems like we've got brittle bones now. We're not bouncing. I know. That's the true. You're not Gumbie anymore. No, don't do that.

This is all true, yeah. Don't do that. Okay, so you stayed like a couple blocks from my house. I remember all of us having a party at my house. Was it a hurricane when you came over, Sof? Yeah, it must have. We had a hurricane party. I've got some pictures of us, like, with face paint and weird hats.

And, like, we were, we went full, like, what is that book about the kids who were left on the island? Lord of the flies. Lord of the flies. Lost boys? Amazing. I have a picture of Sophia licking DeNeil's face. Just, I should post those. We really should.

I absolutely would love to see those. Yeah. I'm like, I'm like, was her face part of a tequila shot? It might have been. I was down. Who cares? No, but it felt safe to be like, okay, here's the bubble. Everybody come camp out over here.

like, we're going to hide out as a unit. And so whatever fantasy our boss might have had about like, ooh, all the hot chicks are getting together and like, this is just going to be like a chick buffet. It backfired quickly because it was like... Everybody was there. Yeah. No, no. Now we're strength in numbers and we're going to circle the wagons and hide out.

Yeah. And we're covered in war paint, so watch out. Yeah. Watch out. had you worked you'd worked with denial on ten-inch hero where her and jensen got together which was awesome so funny yes and then the summer that you guys worked together was the summer that i worked with stephen coletti on a movie in rhode island that sophia was supposed to be the star of do you remember that movie normal adolescent behavior yeah oh i remember that movie yeah so like

the summer you were supposed to star in that that movie, you ended up doing something different. Is that when you're doing hitcher or something? I don't know. Maybe. I just remember it was like we almost got the dates to work, but there was like one week that couldn't, that like couldn't be jiggered to fit. And so I didn't get to go and I was bombed. Like, can you imagine if we'd been up? Oh my God. That would have been so fun. They would have been so fun. Instead, the girls who were the leads in that movie weren't like super into me. They were like, don't talk to us. We're having an actor meeting right now. And I was just like, okay so I ended up just like oh and you're not an actor you're like I thought that's what I was doing here

that's okay I'm good at background uh so I would just hang out on my trailer steps and this like cute little boy kept coming around and he would just like was just so outgoing and like hey are you lonely do you want to hang out and it was Stephen Coletti and I was like oh you little puppy okay great and then I go back to my hotel room and call you and you'd give me all the gossip on daniel and jensen hooking up and Was that the one too? Yeah, honestly. This is like the convergence. They honestly weren't hiding it.

It wasn't like a big, it wasn't a gossip moment per se, but I guess it was at that time. It's exciting when your friends fall in love, though. In public about it. At least within their circles of friends, they were. Yeah. So, but yeah, yeah, it's, isn't that funny? And look at them now. And look at this.

This episode is a perfect storm of all those things coming together. Summer. Yes, it is. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence.

That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so how does the episode start? What we normally do, Liz, is we just like run through this shit and talk about what we hated and what we loved. What did you hate? What did you love? I don't want to say I hated anything I mean because that's

I'm not in it that much so if I'm going to hate something it's got to be me right no no you can hate other people's stuff Hillary I know something you hated well listen Sophie and I were talking about this while we watched they're so good at writing trauma talk for Peyton

and Lucas like we can cry together like champs but when it comes to talking about being happy like it was some of the most stunted dialogue okay there now i can see what you mean yeah it was so bad it's like definitely not how teenagers talk it's definitely not how grownups who are happy talk it was like hey let's just be happy Peyton's like i thought you'd never ask you want to have cookies cookies are sexy we were i mean truly i did i did really feel kind of kind of dumbfounded watching it because we've spent years pining for this relationship.

We want Lucas and Peyton to be together so badly. They're together. Right, though that's a very good point. And then, like, these are two people who've had these beautiful deep talks who love to be together. That great episode, remember Hill when it was Brooks' birthday and you guys sit outside the mall in the comet? That dialogue between you guys was romantic and it was sweet and it was funny and light and like oh my god it was like a breath of fresh air and then we're finally getting what we want and it's like you want a cookie i like cookies cookies make me happy it was so weird i was like are we in sesame street like where did our friends go it it didn't i i don't know how to really explain it because i'm thinking about it in real time since we've

just watched the episode but i i felt like suddenly i don't know these two anymore well it's like they don't know each other. There's no inside jokes. There's no... It did. It did. It absolutely felt that way. It wasn't familiar at all. And it makes no sense because we've seen you together for years. Yeah. I was like, I want more of what, as a viewer, I have fallen in love with for this couple. And then, I don't know, we were in food fights. And I was like, you've got cookie dough getting eaten off your shoulder. And Stephen Coletti's rubbing lips, rubbing ice cream around on my face. I'm like, what is going on here? No, food interaction isn't hot.

Like, that's not hot. Don't rub food on young women and think that that's, like, sexy time. Pass. I don't want to be sticky. I don't want raw egg on me. Listen, besides what feels sexy or not, like, the mood was killed for me when I saw how messy your kitchen was. I was like, they're going to make out? There's just like, there's raw eggs breeding salmonella all over the walls now.

Yeah, that's all I can see. Maybe that's the mark of adulthood, but that's what made me feel the mom. stressed. I was like, I can't, I can't calm down. Clean that up. Like, Peyton's going to have to clean that up. That's not fun. Oh, man. Pass. But I loved the boys stripping. That makes me feel like, like, I've got double standards, because if it were girls stripping, I'd be all mad about it. But some about those boys going for it was adorable. But also, the difference with the boys, if it were girls, it would be like sexy and gyrating and gross

and you'd be like they're in high school the boys were purposefully silly they were allowed to look like boys not men they were funny and comical and their rhythm was off it was much more innocent it really didn't feel like a strip act it was much more innocent

yeah it was very very comedic and I loved Peyton going to get Haley and saying, like, no, you've got to come. And Haley got out of her sadness for a minute. Nathan kind of overcomes his embarrassment. Even you finding, you know, the track for them. So it's the right rhythm and he'll be able to dance to it because you can't dance. Yeah.

That one-two beat, man. We did a cheerleading dance to that song in high school. Like I, as we're listening to it, I'm feeling myself really wanting to do like these motions with my arms because I have a sense memory of like, No, this is how my body's supposed to move to this. This is, yeah, you have the muscle memory from the, from the music, yeah. It's a bop, man. Liz, were you also a cheerleader?

They always wanted me to be a cheerleader. Like, all my friends who were in cheerleading wanted me to be a cheerleader. And I never could because I just never was in school long enough, like to where I felt. I felt like I would be a very bad commit. I wouldn't be able to be committed in the way that I should. Like, they wanted a lot of. time from you. And I just couldn't do it with doing, you know, film and TV and all that. So you were in and out, like you'd leave and go do a project and have to do, you know, school

and like a little school trailer. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. My tutor. Yeah. So all the way till the end of high school. But yeah, they asked me a lot because I had quite a few friends who were cheerleaders. And I always wanted to be. You've done so many jobs like playing a high schooler, Like into your 30s, Liz. And shut up. Is it weird? Like, is it weird having not just like hunkered down and done high school to have like had to portray it on TV? Or do you find that it's like easier just to kind of look at it from a distance?

You know, I think my personality, I never knew myself as not having this other thing in my life. Like I don't remember who I was before I had. had this other thing in my life, this acting thing in my life, you know? Um, and I think for me, I didn't want to, I didn't want high school. I didn't want the full experience. I enjoyed that I what I had, which was this sort of best of both worlds. My Hannah Montana story. Oh yes. You're the real life Hannah Montana. Oh my God. But I did because I had a supportive school who didn't give me a time. I had supportive teachers. Um, so I could leave and, you know, still graduate with honors and do all the things. I did absolutely stop for college. Yeah. That was something I always knew I was going

to do. So really wasn't going to do it for high school. Yeah. That was hard too because nobody wanted me to go to college. Well, yeah. It's like, no. The money trains rolling. You're working. Yeah. Do a kid. You had fun in college, though. Where did you go to school? Best time of my life. Wesleyan University in Connecticut. Oh, so beautiful. It was gorgeous. It was the best. Like, I will never regret that decision.

I don't care how many jobs I know I lost. I will never regret that decision. That's amazing for your life. Like, I know that it's weird because our jobs are to portray lives on screen, but your job is not who you are. It's like such a small piece of what you do. And I think that can be very confusing, you know, especially if you do a show for like as long as we all did. People really think that that's your life.

And it's just your job. And I think it's so important, especially I would imagine for you, having been such a successful working actor from such a young age, having, you know, for us again, like we started really at 21, like for you to have a break in your life where you just got to be. yourself was probably so important. I would not be okay today if it weren't for that time, to be honest. Because I've had, when you do start that young, you absolutely have those later in life crises of conscience. Like, wait, I didn't necessarily. I mean, yes, I loved what I was doing, but I didn't choose it for myself. Like my parents, my parents saw something in me and they allowed me to do some things. They saw that I enjoyed it. But I never said, hey, this is what I want to do with my whole life, you know? I think they treated it as like a hobby that really snowballed into

a career. So I absolutely had those points in my life where I was like, this, you know, I don't know that this is what I want to do forever. I always knew I wanted to be a part of it in some capacity, but I didn't know if it was what I wanted forever. And college was really, really integral and sort of helping me see that I did want to continue to do it at least for years to come. So. Did you study film in school? Yeah, I studied. I was a film major, yeah. They have a great, great, I'm plugging my school,

great film program at Wesleyan undergrad film program. It's like one of the best in the country. Yeah. You don't have to go to graduate film school. You can get a good undergrad film education. No, I mean, my first experience working with you is like you understood the camera in a way that like, no one had taught me, you know?

And you understood like the breakdown of the script. and like putting things in certain order and you just understood the technicality of things in a way that I was like, oh, wow, you should be a director, you should be a producer, you know? And so in this episode, Moira got to direct us, and she's someone who started working at a young age, you know? Yeah, she is.

Being a woman in this industry, it's so backwards. It doesn't matter, like, how long you've been doing this. If you want to make the jump from acting to directing, they give you so much shit for it it's a very hard transition to make yeah very hard transition to make yeah boys do it all the time but if you're a girl baby jump through the hoops

I shadowed for like you know the entire time I was on CSI and we ended up finishing the show even though they said the following season if we did another season I would be directing finally after four years of shadowing and I didn't even need to shadow for that long

to be ready to do it but you know it's hard, it's hard to make it happen it's really hard to make it happen I think you need to direct what would you have directed different in this episode put on your directing hat

please oh my goodness I would have made those scenes with you and Chad feel I would have made them work on the dialogue or something because it really did feel kind of stilted that sort of what exactly

what Sophia was saying, you know, you're missing this thing that we've been pining for on the show for so long. And I want the, I want the, the, Rachel and, um, what's his name? Mouth? No, I want Ross and Rachel a moment. I want that kind of feeling anytime you guys are back together, you know. So for me, and also when you ask me about how I would direct things, Like, most of it for me is performance stuff. That's not to say you guys didn't give a good performance. You were working with dialogue that you had. I feel real green in episodes like this or it's like, oh, I didn't know how to do that.

I didn't know how to do that yet. Well, you know who had good chemistry? You know who didn't need any help is the people on their first fucking date. Chase and Brooke. All of a sudden, sparks. These two don't know each other. Their dialogue's very nostalgic and adorable. It's very funny.

Yeah, I think Stephen, gosh, he was so nervous when he came in. And I will say I really, I love that he confided that in me, like in those, in that early couple of scenes in the school, because now I know him and we work together for so long. I can see his nerves. I can see like the tightness in his chest. Like he's just like, oh God, I have to say the things and there's the camera. And he's doing great, by the way. I don't. mean it is a criticism. It just read as like a boy nervous on a date. Well, that's the thing. It worked so well. And his nerves, I think, really work for Chase. And after those school days, he was like, I'm just really nervous. I've never done anything like this before. And so I was like,

I was trying to think of a way to help him get out of his head. And, you know, we were in North Carolina and I'm me. And I was like, I'm going to take you on an adventure. And I took Stephen to lunch. And then I took him to the shooting range. He'd never shot a gun before. And I was like, come on, we're going to, like, I'm going to teach you how to do something. Something scary. Yeah, but like, interestingly, I think because, you know, like my dad grew up spending summers on a farm, so that was the thing that I learned as a little kid. And I grew up being a camp counselor and, um, and did so much training in that sort of vertical that when we really like started to get to it, I was like, hey, remember 25 minutes ago when we got here and you were nervous and now you're really in your body and you're paying attention to how your breath affects this thing that you're doing?

And like, this is actually just kind of science. And he was like, yeah. And it's sweet because when I went back when I did that fundraiser thing for him and James's show, he told the story on that on that live. And I was like, oh, bun, you remember it the same way I do. I love that. Yeah. That's so sweet. But like it really, we basically used it as like an exercise to remember how to be in your body when you're doing something that raises your.

adrenaline and then that next week we shot this all these scenes where we went on this date and like i feel like i can see the sort of night and day um like nerves to comfort in in our on-screen relationship and and that was like that was very sweet it was the first time i'd ever felt like kind of the grown-up on set because we were babies and i was like oh my god i know something i can help you, you know? And that was like, that was kind of a cool, a cool experience to have. A very cool thing you did for him, actually. It's a very cool thing that you did. Yeah, I just like, I wasn't really accustomed to other people, let alone boys in our work environment, being vulnerable and saying, I'm really scared and I need some help. And that

honesty just made me want to do that. I was like, wow. okay because you know you were like i'm going to take the best care of you now like i was like okay yeah vulnerability is so handsome i was like come with me little baby i will take you under my wing yeah it was just like it was very sweet and he was always he was always like a sweet pal and i appreciated that i didn't like being told that i had to like eat in a way that i would get ice cream all over my face so he could like wipe it off my lip i just didn't like it i just thought it looked I don't know. When is Brooke Davis ever going to let shit get on her face?

Like, Brooke Davis has been using. In that cute little jacket, in that cute little Renaissance jacket, I'm going to make a mess. No, not in velvet. How dare you? In the early 2000s, we all used, remember the Mac lip glass that was like the stickiest shit on the planet? Oh my gosh. The wind would blow and the leaves would be stuck to your feet. Yeah, like fly paper on your mouth.

We all learn to eat wearing Mac lip glass. There is no way that Brooke Davis would have ice cream on her face. We were trained. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for, like, kind of years. you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence.

That's Sierra Teller Ornales, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world,

influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So here's something I want to, food for thought. Okay. Chase's character is based on a real dude that I knew in high school. Is he? Yes.

So there was a mega church in our town. and all the different high schools kind of fed into that and there was a dude that went to a rival high school but hung out with all the mega church girls at my high school and he was so hot and we were all like

how is he hanging out with all of these girls that are like a lot and he would come to our football games and he always wore a blue stocking cap and so we didn't know his name we just called him Code Blue Code Blue! Be like Code Blue!

And he looked just like Caletti. And so when I wanted to cast like a boy clean teen, I was like, oh, we actually had one of those. And surprise, surprise, he was mega hot. He, like, wasn't a weirdo. Everybody wanted to date him. He looked like Stephen Coletti. And Mark was like, great. We'll just cast that guy.

You're friends with him? Cool. And I have tried so hard to look up the original Code Blue and can't find him anywhere. But in my heart of hearts, I want him to be like a total weirdo. Now I was a grownup. Like, it would just make me feel better. because he had no interest. No interest in high school.

But my trouble, my trouble with the storyline is the boy clean teen is portrayed in such a sympathetic, sexy light. I was going to... And you are having to manage the crazy, Elizabeth. Like, on paper, Shelley's like a nutcase.

Yeah. Yeah, I have, from the beginning of the character, I tried my best to tone down the way that she, she was sort of just mean and just mean as opposed to someone who had a belief system that she felt strongly about. But she was like a harping person about it as opposed to just being, you know, an interesting new layer of character in the show. And so I always tried to play her a little with an undertone of sympathy even before I knew where the story was going just because I couldn't,

it just didn't feel real to me. Especially also because having related, too being that person who felt at a you know as a teenager you know i'm not going to i didn't do drugs at all like i was a good kid as a result of being raised a certain way and so i kind of related to her in that way and i wanted her to be more like what i was than what was on the page so much you know um but yeah even in this episode like just the way she's like just that whole exchange between um her and daniel or her and rachel or she's who's who humiliating her for you know going out and getting crazy i don't know i just i hated myself in that scene so i guess i'm supposed to hate her i don't know but i felt the same way at the end when it's

like oh it's he's he's he's so adorable that he's a clean teen and she's just this annoying girl yeah she's a she's a she's a shrew what her reasoning is but she's just this mean sort of judgy human and he's got and he has you know a point of view and a reason for being who he is. And, you know, it's just, it's not getting balanced in that way. Is that a woman broke his heart or a girl broke his heart? Didn't want it? Well, I just mean the way he's written and the way he plays it is that he's much more, you know,

or was encouraged to play it sort of like this nice, you know, we like this version of a clean team. We don't like my version of a clean team. Yeah. Because you have the same backstory. Shelly's backstory is that a guy, you know, slept with her and then blew her off, ghosted her. And so she was heartbroken and decided to like do this, you know, renewed virginity thing. And then apparently I had a pregnancy. Yeah.

And an abortion. Well. So I had a lot more reasons actually to have a strong reaction to go into clean teemdom. But again, it was always portrayed very shrill. But that's the thing. We talked about this when you're, when you're, when you're. reveal with me, you know, with Shelley and Brooke happens. And

it's like so obviously beating the dead horse of the Madonna complex that it's like, are we going to pretend this is interesting? Like she's either a terrible woman who's made terrible decisions and she's a hussar who can't keep her legs closed or she's a prude

and because she's a prude, she's miserable and shrill to be around. And it's like, oh my God. Exactly. Thank you. Why can't people just We can't just be people? And to your point, their stories are virtually the same. And on one person, it's portrayed as sexy, romantic, and desirable. And on the other, it's like, oh, we can't stand to be around this person.

And I think it's really interesting to hear your perspective on how it made you feel, you know, as the person and the performer having to do that scene with the Rachel character, because that's how I felt for so much of this show. I'd be like, why does Brooke have to treat people like this? Why? And then, you know, I also loved her so much of the time and thought she was, you know, funny and fun and I loved to play her. But when she would be like cruelly judgmental, it felt more like a caricature of what these grown-up men thought girls do to girls. Yeah. Hot and mean and judgy. And it's like, or maybe all the other stuff we do is cooler. The other stuff we do is what makes people really. late to this person and yeah it's interesting isn't it that that when you feel something that it doesn't necessarily feel authentic it feels put on that kind of um that kind of intense like judgey shrillness yeah well maybe you just needed like a cool zip up hoodie and like some pouty lips you just needed some calculus help yeah

Just, I need some help with my homework. Let's, before we get into like the best part of the show, the dance. Let's talk about the Karen Deb Dan of it all because watching this as a grown-up, their storyline just continues to be so much louder for me now that we're watching this as grown-ups. The Deb sh-hs hard.

It's gnarly. It's really intense. We're just, just casually having an attempted suicide on the show. Yeah, I'm going to say the exact same thing. It's very like, we're going to have this man sit down and say the most hurtful thing in the most hurtful way he could say it to this person who's already struggling. And then we're going to casually have her dumps and pills.

And then we're going to casually have him just say, it's over and then move on. And go on a date. You know, drive him away in the ambulance and then it's over. Well, also her son, like we've talked about this in, you know, the last couple episodes, Liz. Nathan keeps saying, I want to die. I should have died. You know, he has attempted suicide a couple times. And it's never treated like that.

Like, we're not calling it suicide attempts. And it almost feels like there should be a trigger or just like a trauma warning. I was going to say trigger warning. Yeah. Yeah. And now to have his mother doing the same thing. I can't imagine how stressful that is to watch if you're in the midst of going through that

as a viewer because it is being treated pretty casually. I've had people in my life kill themselves and I'm watching this like, what? What are we talking about here? She just takes a fistful of pills and nothing. It doesn't even ring a bell in town. Yeah, I'm very curious to see

what's going to happen in the next episode. in terms of how we deal with it. Because if we fail to talk about it, that's really going to be a deeply intense letdown. And given the way that sometimes we do what's really good in terms of these conversations, and sometimes we really blow it, I don't know what to expect.

I don't either. Oof. Yeah, it's a doozy. What do you think about Karen having dinner with Dan and being all cozy with Dan? Could you have dinner with your worst ex-exper? boyfriend ever. Absolutely not. I think it's like one of these TV show moments where they have to, you know, bring certain characters back together or like just to have story, you know,

absolutely not. But, you know, she's a really nice person for giving human, I guess, beyond what's normal or logical. And he has slowly been kind of working his way back in. And there's the story of it all, but then just as a viewer, like the chemistry between those two is undeniable. Like the Paul and Moira chemistry is so good. And so if I kind of remove the story and I just watch them, I can't get enough of them. And then I think about their story and I'm like, this is going to be so bad. bad. This is so bad.

I mean, thinking about over the years, she's already thrown a chair through his office window. They've run against each other for mayor. They've been in all these like altercations publicly. He skimped out on child support ever for her, for his child.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot to stomach. It's a lot. Yeah. And I don't know. I mean, I get it. It is, you know, sometimes on a TV show, it's like, well, what's the worst thing we could think of? They found it. They found it. And listen, I'm sure the fans loved it in some way or another, like, or they were really pissed off. And you want, you want, you want,

you want, um, hold on, no, listen, I'm for real. If someone writes in and is like, hey, I need you guys to know, that was my favorite storyline. I shipped Karen and Dan so hard. Okay. If you feel that way, can you please write in so we can tell Liz? Because I bet there's like two. There's two or three out there, you sickos. Well, then it'll be easy for you to read those notes and share the rest of the world. We'll frame them in our office as like, here's the piece of evidence. It's so hard. They really do show Dan in like this supportive light while he's saying all the stuff that he said to Deb. You're right, Liz.

like I settled for you. Karen's the love of my life. The night before our wedding, I went and sat outside her house. Can you imagine? When I was watching it, it just sort of rang to that same idea that you guys were talking about, or at least in my mind it called to that sort of like unnecessary cruelty of him saying it that way. You know what I mean? You just watch it in your skin crawls. And maybe that's what they were going for, but it felt like like a torture porn moment, an emotional torture porn moment. It's a verbal punch to me. Yeah, it was a verbal punch, yeah. Because you know, you know this woman is about, then just going to go and, you know. Try to hurt herself. Well, and it's interesting, too, to see, because Dan is a narcissist,

to see the swing and how awful he can be to people. And currently, he's in, you know, he's in this moment where he is being the kindest we've seen him with Karen and he's helping her in the morning and Deb flips out and the turn from when he's in that the back of the cafe with Karen to pouring water on Deb's face you're just like oh he's in there he's in there he's in there yeah and and it actually it strikes me in this moment I don't know that we've talked about this but so much of what's true of men, you know, narcissists controlling men in relationships is it's the new relationship where they say, you make me want to be different. Yeah.

You're the reason I'm going to change. You've shown me what I'm capable of. For you, I want to be fill in the blank. It's like making my stomach turn. And he's in that phase with Karen. This is going to be my redemption. Now I'm going to get what I always really wanted. But he's just as vile and awful.

awful as he's ever been with Deb because she's old news to him. Yes. But God, how good was that moment with Karen and Dan having that dinner? And she says, you know, Lucas said the most upsetting thing to me today. And Moira did such a beautiful job with that scene. Yeah, she did. Because it's quiet. It's a quiet share.

And there's something about how low and slow. it is that makes it so much more ominous than if she were confrontational at all yeah confrontational upset freaking out like it's showing any like like she knows something anything else would have not have been a woman

showing emotion how unlikable oh my goodness but like there really there really is something chilling about the way she expresses the discomfort because it's the beginning. It's like the seed is cracking open.

The seed has been. Oh, God, and he knows what's coming. Ooh. Gave me chills. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred

years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornales, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep tradition. alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know you were going to hook up with mouth? Let's just get to some fun. The darkness is killing me. We ended this episode now. I was like, I feel like I need an antacid. I know. Did you know that you and Lee were going to be hooking up on the show? Or is that something that like spawned later? You mean when I first was asked to be a part of it? I didn't know that I was going to be paired with mouth.

But I could sort of see it. I could see it as something that would make sense in terms of bringing us both to a different place. Yeah. You know, a big thing for him, you know? Yeah. In terms of he's been a virgin, right? So when we're doing the whole, like, I don't want to call it, is it breakfast clubby episode is what it is. And, you know, when I end up in like leather pants with my top off holding my breast.

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. And that happened really fast. Like, but I think it made sense that if she was going to start to open herself back up to any kind of sexuality that he was the right person. for that. Because I think she probably was burned by a lot of situations before. And, you know, he was very, he's a very sweet, comes across as a very sweet individual from the beginning. It makes sense to me. And I really like that it happened. I really loved working with Lee. Like, Lee's one of my favorite people. So, yeah. Well, he represents like a safety.

Like, I was definitely a super virgin in high school. And it wasn't until I got older and was like a late bloomer and you know lost my virginity to someone who was older that i was like god i wish i would have lost my virginity in high school to someone who it was a big deal to you know like right it was a big deal to mouth he probably made shelly feel really special yeah very special yeah and i think that stuff that has that is yet to come for what you guys are going to go over um is really sweet yeah but well and what a nice thing too to to be clear in a storyline like that, that healthy relationships are very healing for people.

Yeah. You know? And what a better person to do that with, you know, than mouth. Like, to your point, such a good character who's really been, you know, going through his paces to identify what he believes in, what kind of guy he wants to be. And, yeah, where his insecurities come from. but how he wants to work around those things. And I don't know.

Yeah. Again, as a viewer, I loved watching you guys together so much. Thanks. Also, Lee got buffed this year. Yeah, he did. By the way, let's talk about the boys dancing. Can we? That's the highlight.

Every single close up is on Lee. It's all Lee and his hips and his moves. His moves are great. He's got this little cut stomach going on. He's the dancer of all of us, really. Honestly. No, that was so fun. And it kind of holds true to like an authentic high school experience where it's like you've known the same people your whole life.

You've gone to school forever. The girls mature faster than the boys. The boys are like pretty scrawny and awkward. And then all of a sudden like junior or senior year, there's like shoulders and an Adam's apple and like a jaw and abs. And you're like. guy that you never looked at you would be like oh oh maybe you are everything i ever wanted interesting tell me more yeah mouth has that energy where it's like a sneak attack senior year the senior year sneak attack is a hit i love that senior year sneak attack you couldn't put it better i'm obsessed

i landed the hot mouth yeah you sure did all right so so lafferty wins MVP this episode for the dance moves I never went dancing with Lafferty we didn't have that kind of friendship and I'm like is this acting or is this real? I was going to ask you guys

I just need y'all to know when we were watching this episode and they're in the locker room and Lee you know hits play on the mouth hits play on the music and him and skills are like oh no like James was only slightly playing up his awkwardness and like like our sweet friend will take you out we'll go play pool with you but he he's not the guy who dances like we'd all

dance we'd be like let's put our purses on the floor and dance and Lee would be in the middle like doing a funny thing and and I mean what a good sport like he leaned into it I'm very proud of him because I have a man in my life. We're Zolli. Oliver, who refuses to dance. What? Unless he's had way too many drinks. He refuses to dance.

And when he does dance, it is like he's making fun of the way that he dances. So he's like playing up how silly it is. And that's how, that's what that reminded me of in the most loving way. I found it adorable. It was so good. Lafferty dancing like that. He really committed. if it was a joke or not because it felt like on that fine line of like maybe this is actually

a little bit real it's like the way i think about it like james is such an athlete he's a basketball player and like i went to junior high in high school with a girl who'd grown up doing ballet and a bunch of us were on dance team and like when she would try to do anything to any hip-hop song like her body just couldn't move that way like she was so so elegant and long and there was no like gyrating for her and i i was i was killing me because it's like that's what it felt like watching watching mouth and nathan i was like oh my god that's like me and my friend used to look like and oh shit it's just so good it's like he's very used to like the ups the vertical the dunking and then he's being asked to like sway from side

to side and he can't do it and it's it's perfect and then you've got lee like throwing his hips forward in a close-up, like, coming into camera with a pelvis. And you're like, oh, my God. That day of filming was so fun. Because we were in a real strip club in Wilmington. We were in pure gold, I want to say, which was over by the bowling alley. Oh, I remember because everybody, by the way, we all came. All of us who weren't in that scene came to work that night to watch.

Oh, yeah. Like, remember being in the back by video village? And we were like, it smells like vanilla in here. It smelled so. weird in that place. Vanilla. Like, Bio and vanilla. Yeah. Like they were trying to cover up the smell of Bia? It was like whatever the like body, I don't know,

glitter. It's not like body glitter. Yeah. I don't remember Lee being nervous, like at all. No, he was not nervous. He was ready to shine. Antoine was super pumped. Like, I'm sure, yeah. If you've never been to a strip club with Antoine, you have not lived. haven't. Okay, well then I've got to get on that immediately. Tis an experience. Yeah, yeah. He's a party, man. It's his second home. You know, he's just like, I love it here. This is great. Let me get on stage. And I think he loved that Skills wasn't in the track suit and like came out in his boxers because if you notice there are only ever wide shots of Antoine or waist up shots of Antoine because there was not a lot of control in that.

costume and he's dancing and we're all like Antoine for real dude like for real like lock it up but you can't say anything because you don't want to make your friend uncomfortable until after the fact and then you give them so much shit about it you're like thanks for them for them things shaking around it was art was it art imitating life or life imitating art at that point I don't know but that was a wild day that was one that was one of those scenes where the lines got blurry. Yeah, and it's Moira directing. So there's nothing salacious happening.

It's like, you know, your big sister's there and everything's so tame and safe, which was good. She was the right person for the boys. Right. Because she made it hilarious and sweet. Yeah. It didn't feel gross. And that was so nice.

And I would imagine very nice for them. Well, and even the choice for Bevin's wardrobe. It's like not like a bra. It's like a tank top. It's like this whole, like, corset thing. It's, like, very conservative. Yeah. God bless the female director.

God bless them. It was wonderful. I definitely think we do this thing, Liz. We've started doing this season called Honorable Mention. Oh, yes. And, like, James is for sure our honorable mention this week. The honorable mention. Yeah.

I feel that. I feel that. I can agree with that. I can agree with that. The commitment he showed was very impressive. Thank God. for joy too to be able to just like laugh and have fun because the chemistry between those two you know she just has this like huge hormonal freak out and over like a dress which been there

done that hormones make you a weird of um yep kind of a dumb storyline for her I wish they gave her like more to do considering she's been hit by a car and she's pregnant in high school there's like real shit going on yeah the dress is the thing that sends her over the edge their chemistry like when she is teasing him about it and has that gold thong and tells him she wants a laugh dance like I turned red I love it that was so funny

there's nothing better than like seeing your partner in a really humiliating situation and watching them just kind of like man up through it when they're a good sport yeah the good sportsmanship that's what I like that's hot it's kind of hot that's so funny

I have to say there's one thing that stuck out to me in this episode I know we've done our honorable mention I don't know what to call this it was like the question mark

for me where I was like what is happening when you know we're in this moment where we're finally getting to see Peyton and Lucas happy

the writers haven't figured out how to write it clearly but you guys you guys know how to act it like you're acting your faces off kissing with tongue is what we're doing. We're like,

the words aren't there. But the tongue is. Sophia. But the tongue in it. Guys, these words are terrible. You know what this needs. Let's just do this. I'm cowbell.

Tongue. But I was so confused. Like, I liked the gesture of, of Peyton taking Lucas to see her mom. I was like, okay. The cemetery moment.

I was like, okay, because what we're trying to say is that these things that have made her sad because of him make her happy. And then we all were super, Liz, like Hillary and I both started like freaking out when then he walked over to Keith's grave and then they were like smiling. We were like, what is this trauma bond? Like, why are they, why did they write it this way? And then I went, oh, because again, you got to do this in TV, right?

Like, it's the device to allow the flashback to happen for when Lucas has been unconscious and you've seen Peyton at the cemetery. It's all leading to Jimmy didn't kill Keith. So once the flashback happened, we were like, oh, okay, we get it. Like, we know why this had to happen. But, man, I mean, Hillary, I guess I just was wondering, like, do you remember that day? Did it feel weird to you? Was it one of those things where you just knew you had to do it, like, to get the shot?

Like, what was that, what was filming that like? I'm just saying words on paper. Like, this episode is so weird. Because if you would just let the camera roll on Chad and I, we had a good time. We had a good rapport. We had good chemistry. We could have faked words that were like, fun to watch. Because we have to say all this clunky dialogue and then it's like, we're going to have

internal monologues out loud at the cemetery. none of it felt cool or funny or flirty or and so then we end with like all right well let's just throw some cookies at each other it everything felt divisy and as an actor it is not your job to correct every script or to fix stuff sometimes it's just your job to hit your mark and say the dumb words on the paper and so we did it and we tried to have the best time doing it and there are people you try to make it your best yeah there are people who super love the cookie fight scene and i will say i remember chad and i just kind of hitting a wall shooting the cookie fight scene because we'd had to do so much like awkward band like weird stuff

that when we were hunkered down behind that table we couldn't get up and move because it would have messed up continuity. And we were in very similar physical positions to the school shooting. And that had been the last time he and I were kind of like stuck next to each other for an extended period of time like that. But this time we got to like have fun. Be happy. Yeah. And just like be kids. And so when I'm laughing there, I'm legitimately laughing there. Like he made me laugh in that situation because he was just like, I have to eat this shit off your shoulder and you're a gross person and you're disgusting. And so, and so for all of the uncomfortable dialogue throughout the course of the episode, like Chad and I really did end it on a high note, making something

that was, you know, stupid, stupid food fight into a little bit of fun. We had fun. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it makes me feel excited to see as they figure out how to write for y'all from a place of happiness instead of a place of trauma like what's going to come because again I know we've said this a bunch but if you can make a good scene out of so so questionable dialogue like imagine what the scene becomes when the dialogue is great you know and I want that like I as a viewer I want the payoff of seeing these two have the great moments that don't have to be in the middle of a lockdown in a school. Yeah. Like,

I want to see the joy. Yeah. Just like a random Thursday in the kitchen. Doing something simple. Yeah. Making salt cookies. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia

and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the

creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation back. basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we have a listener question. Okay. Sabrina, this is kind of a heavy question.

Um, Sabrina is asking us, did it seem realistic to you that there was no discussion of Haley and Nathan not keeping the baby? Considering how young they are, everything Nathan and Lucas have gone through with the young parents and Nathan's basketball dreams, I found it strange that it was assumed they would have the baby, no questions asked. Sabrina's going for it, man. It's a great question. Yeah. Liz, you're a little bit removed from it. So, like, as an outside observer, like, storyline-wise, what do you think? I think choices are often made to not be too political.

Or, you know, maybe that's not a storyline that they were ready to tell. I will share that my character, Shelley, one of the reasons why she goes into clean teens is because she's had, you know, you learn all this stuff later down, but, like, that she, you know, had an abortion. The whole thing is, like, very much that I feel really, really guilty about it. So that was also the way it was treated for my character was that, like, like, I wish I hadn't done it. I'd have to rewatch that stuff, but the language around it is very, you know,

sort of regret, regret, regret. Mm-hmm. Oh, my God. Had Shelly been like, I'm so glad I did this, you would have been demon- I can see my life now. And yes, it was a difficult decision, whatever. Like, it would never have been handled like that. And I just, yeah, I think because it's a network show, I think they're going to want to show, they don't want to necessarily show that.

Well, what's really interesting to me, a lot of research has been done about how the portrayal of abortion care and reproductive health care on television has really damaged the reality of the issue. And there is an adage that says, you know, a character who is pregnant, absolutely not, cannot have an abortion. Characters can talk about abortions they've had. But, you know, they even did an analysis about it on sex in the city. Like, Samantha talks about having had two abortions. Carrie talks about having had an abortion in her 20s. But when Miranda gets pregnant and is going to have an abortion, then she doesn't. She just has to have this baby.

And, you know. Once the character exists, basically. Yes. Yeah. And listen, I think everybody's entitled to their opinions and feelings about the issue. I think no one is entitled to have their feelings weigh in on someone else's health care or life or family planning. And where it's a little tricky for me is, is again, and, you know, we talked about this a little bit with, you know, Shelley v. Chase. This Madonna Hore complex, this idea that women can't make decisions,

that you can't say, I wanted to stay in school. I didn't have to drop out of grad school. I didn't have a partner. I didn't have, you know, the economic stability. You know, 60% of women who seek abortion care in America are already mothers, plural. Yeah. Yeah. And, but we tell these stories in this way that I think are really detrimental.

and have proven to be pretty harmful. And so, you know, again, like, we love Nathan and Haley. We love Jamie Scott. Like, we love the story, but I do, I will say I agree with Sabrina that the timidness, you know, the desire to not be, quote, political, as you said, Liz, actually is political. Like, we cartoonify the issue. We act like there aren't real questions. and real struggles. We act like Nathan and Lucas don't come from parental trauma and that,

you know, Lucas doesn't know inherently the experience of being a parent, you know, raised in a household where your parent is living on or below the poverty line. Like, we pretend like these issues aren't real issues for people. And because it's all going to be fine in TV land. And I would have loved, I would have loved to see them having that conversation. Because having a conversation is just having a conversation. Yeah. Yeah. I think it would have been powerful. We never see Whitey have that conversation with Nathan. Like how powerful would that have been to have Whitey be like, hey man, I wish I had kids. I wish. But as someone who's looking out for you, because I know you don't have parents looking out for you, has anyone talked to you and Haley

about this? Like really talked to you about it. But yeah, nobody ever brings it up. I don't think it's changed much because the article I was telling you about I read in advance of the midterms you know talking about like why why can't we have you know very real and serious conversations about this stuff and um and be clear that again believe what you want to believe but but your beliefs don't get to make the laws and your beliefs should not impede doctors from doing their jobs from keeping people alive you know i um there's this great OBGYN, Natalie Crawford, who does a lot of sort of education and activism around these issues on Instagram. And she was talking about, you know, a woman who she'd spoken to who, who's water broke

at 16 weeks in Texas, needed to have a DNC because, you know, that's it. Your water breaks. Like, that's not a viable fetus. That baby can't be born in a NICU. Like, it's not going to happen. Heartbreaking for that family. They wanted that baby. And the. state of Texas wouldn't allow her to get care. And so her doctors literally said, we have to wait until you're septic. And they waited until she was septic to then be able to intervene because, you know, then per the law, her life was in danger. And she has, yeah, and basically the septic pregnancy destroyed her uterus and she's never going to be able to get pregnant. So this woman who lost her baby now will never get to be a mom. And like that happened this year. Yeah.

So I don't think we're doing a good enough job in our industry that does have the ability to Sabrina's point, to ask questions and to give a dose of reality to these very human stories, even if they end the same way, by the way, again, like, you know, in the storyline, Jamie's Brooks Godson, like, I love that kid. Yeah. And I think we do a disservice because then we get to situations like the one I just described and people go, well, I didn't know that's what was happening. And that's happening every day. So I think the gap is still, even if we've gotten better, I don't think we're closing the gap at the speed that we should be to like have the conversations that we have the power to have. And I don't know.

I've never created a TV show. So I don't know what the answer is there. All right, Sabrina. TV show, we're going to handle this shit. Great. Trust us. Yeah. That was a deep question. It was a deep question. Shocker, I love a deep question.

Yeah. Yeah. Hey, listen, should we spin a wheel? I think we should spin a wheel. This very complicated episode of OTH. Elizabeth, every week we spend a wheel. And we do most likely to, like, senior superlatives. Ooh. Ooh.

Oh. This is a fun one. Liz, read the question. Who's most likely? Who is most likely to open a nightclub? I mean, so we have to pick a character and we have to pick a real-life person. Amongst this group of humans? I mean, Deb and Karen open a nightclub, like, tricks a nightclub, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I thought after this little arrangement this week, like, clearly it's going to be skills.

And hopefully it's a nightclub for the ladies. be a strip. Yeah. Have you all been watching that Chippendale show? Oh, I haven't started it yet. Is it good? Like I said, I don't watch any TV,

but my husband does while I'm just like puddling around the house. And what I've seen is engaging. I'm like, tell me more. Is it? Yeah. Chip and Dales. Yeah. It's an interesting look at like what that whole business was.

And I could see, I could see skills being in charge of an empire. I get it. Yeah. Who in real life? Who in real life's going to open up a nightclub? I mean, DeNeil has the distillery. She's got the family business beer.

That's true. Not me. It wouldn't be me. I can just absolutely take myself out of the equation, but... We're done here. Yeah. I don't know. Who stays out anymore?

I feel like all of us when we get together, we're like, it's 10 o'clock. Sophia. Sophia's trying to hang out at like a German, Berlin, Unz, Unz, Unz, Club. Absolutely. I'm like, take me all the way underground. Yeah.

Yeah. My husband and I, this summer, we're like, before work gets really serious again in September, let's go on an adventure. And we went to Ibiza. Like, that was my first time there. So maybe it's you. It's her.

It's her. Oh, I was like, this is the dream. What are you talking about? I can, like, go and eat the best food, swim in the ocean, and then see, like, six amazing DJs in one night. They play for 45 minutes apiece. This is like, this is chic. I was very into it. I was like, I need to just move to a European island and do this.

Hopefully next episode, we deal with some of the complications of this one. It is season four, episode 13, pictures of you. It's about to get awesome. Liz, you're a trooper. Thank you for being with us. That's so much fun. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review.

You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens O-T-H. Or email us at Drama Queen's at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us.

Girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.