Drama Queens - Crying It Out ᐧ EP707

Episode Date: September 2, 2024

It's official, Rob admits to having "One Tree Hill" fever!  Rob explains what made him cry, Joy acknowledges how safe he made her feel, and they ponder if James Lafferty preferred acting or directing this episode.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. Smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl.

Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Can I begin this episode with a personal announcement? Yes, please. Yes. Okay. Well, as of last week, it's official. I have officially caught one tree hill fever. Here's how it went down.

Is it plaguing you while you sleep? Tell us what's happening. I mean, it's kind of all-consuming. What happened is I wasn't available for episode 706. Sof and Janet did that one. And what that meant for me was, though, I got to watch the episode just as a viewer. I didn't have to take any notes.

And you love it. And I got to tell you, I loved it. I had so much fun. I laughed at myself. I was like shushing Jenny. Like, quiet. It's getting really tense between Clay and Quinn. Like I was so emotionally invested.

And I laughed. I went, there it is. I caught it. I caught the fever. Now you know. know why. Yeah, I already got it, but now I can say it's, it's in my blood. I love that.

I'm on board. I'm on board. Now we just have to get you, I mean, I guess this is good for a late night. If you're up late for some reason, you can, you can watch all the episodes that you weren't in. You can really catch up. Yeah, yeah. I have that kind of free time these days, Joy.

I plan on watching five seasons, six seasons of the show. Absolutely. I mean, just the fact that, you know, it's so easy for you to record this show that you don't even have to leave your home. I know. You don't have to go to a hotel. No, no, guys, I am swimming in free time these days. So, yes, absolutely. We got some stuff to talk about.

Oh, we have a lot to talk about. But before we move on from your Rob Buckley's hotel adventures, I did want to say for the friends at home who can't see you, I noticed that today you're in a room with only one bed instead of two, and it looks as though you have a kitchenette. What's going on at the front desk of the local hotel? Are they like, have they caught on that this is where you work now and now they're updating your features? Or was this just like a surprise today? You tell me, I was wondering the same thing, right? Because here's the deal.

I gained a kitchenette, but I lost a bed. So either they've realized I might be a big fish or they're like, this guy can have the dregs. and they just threw me in the last room they had. I like to think I got upgraded to a microwave. I think you got upgraded. Yeah, I think you did too. Well, they know you don't need two beds in there. You're not even using the one now that they figured out

you're not bringing up a little side piece for the afternoon. Yeah, I mean, listen, they didn't have to figure anything out. Remember last week I shouted that like an absolute psychopath. I don't use the beds. What? This guy is not well. Well, congratulations on your upgrade. Thank you.

I can't wait just to settle up with my microwave in a box of hot pockets and make it a day. I was going to say popcorn, man. Like, you should just be making popcorn for these episodes in that microwave every week. The audience would love listening to me chomping on popcorn throughout the entire episode, too. Joy and I had to learn that lesson early on. Was one of you chewing gum? Because so far our snackers. Yeah, and we sort of assumed, like, well, they'll take the sounds of us eating out.

And then our sweet editors were like, You know, that's really complicated on a multi-stream audio recording with, like, all these people. Because there's people talking while you two are eating, and we were like, oh, yeah. Right. Sorry about that. So we didn't notice until people started commenting. They were like, why are they eating and chewing in the microphone? Oh, God.

It was embarrassing. Sorry. Fair question. Wait, was this also at a time where you thought this might not live on on YouTube? Mm-hmm. So you thought maybe you were just kind of getting away with one? Or, like, I don't know. if we're sitting and we're recording, it's breakfast time and we're all eating, that's one thing.

But what I didn't realize was that when, at least for me, when I do that, I would start to see the clips that were getting cut together for social. And I was like, what is this? The snack Olympics? Like, how many things did I eat in 56 minutes yesterday? I didn't even realize until it started to really get spliced together. It was like a montage food marathon. I don't mind it, though, because I think, first of all, as you know, I love snacks. And also, it's a really fun conversation piece. Like, just before we started recording, I said, hey, so far, is that a dried mango I see you snacking on? Mango, chili lime.

In fact, it is Robert Buckley. It is. It's fun. Food's fun. Food is fun when it's good. So fun. Guys, I feel excited about our, it's not a snack marathon, but we are doing a recording marathon today. For our friends at home, the way our schedules have worked this week, we're actually going to get into episodes 7 and 8 of season 7.

And the whiplash from intensity to pure comedy I have experienced getting ready for today. I feel like you did, Rob, watching 706. I have had the best time. I have been laughing. I'm like, oh, my God, we are funny. I'm really excited to get into this with you, too. It was a good time. So, all right, we have season seven, episode seven, I and Love and you, which is the title

of an avid brother's song, air date October 26, 2009. I was wondering, I was thinking, this feels like a Halloween episode. I bet this was October. Yeah. Dan brings Renee onto his television show, leaving Nathan and Haley powerless to stop him from revealing the truth of her pregnancy to the world. Quinn examines what went wrong with David, and Sarah and Clay discussed their past. Meanwhile, Brooke comes clean with Julian about her true desires.

And this episode was directed. I believe that this was his first time directing, right? No, last season, I think, right? Oh, last season, yes, because it was some of the slam ball stuff I think he did. So this is James Lafferty's. Yeah, directed this. It's so good. Yeah.

And what a cool thing that the device of where everyone is going to watch this show gave you guys really isolated. time in the Haley and Nathan house so that he could have all of our other scenes to really just direct on set and not have to wear two hats. It's such a cool, I just feel like it's such a cool little behind the scenes tidbit. Yeah, I love it too. I thought that the use of Dan's show as the through line for the episode was done so well. I agree. In terms of, like you said, sort of spacing everyone out, but sort of everyone's all on the same page. and the, just the tension of how it was going to, everything. The dialogue about falling in love and like going to different couples.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, I wrote that one down when he said, Dan says, we're not victims when it comes to love and happiness. We're assassins. Dan slash Paul just crushed this episode. He was so damn good. So good. Yeah, he always shows up.

He's so reliable. He just knows how to handle all the material. Just throw anything at him. It's great. Yeah. He's just really, really good in this stage of Dan Scott's life and this talk show host arena. It gives him this really cool space to show off all of his curiosity and his listening and his empathy. And I thought that, you know, to your point, Rob, the way they kind of wove everyone's seen.

in and out of each other. You know, when he's talking about being divorced and then it cuts to Quinn and you, there were moments like that for everyone, you know. Sarah's talking to you about people of character and it cuts to Nathan, like the device of these parallel lives, it didn't feel too heavy-handed. It felt really brilliant. I just can't get over in such a brilliant idea in the first place. I'm still, every time I see him walk out and there's a talk show in an audience, I'm like, this is so genius. Where else could Dan Scott have gone? Of course, this is what they wrote.

It's so smart. Yeah, it still surprises me. It still makes me so happy. Yeah, it's perfect for Dan's ego, yet it's also the perfect device for questioning whether he's actually changed, given what his messaging is. Yes.

I know. It feels like he's really genuinely trying to change, the more that this goes on. I mean, I really loved that about this episode, all of the all of this stuff with Renee is just so juicy juicy how about when they're backstage and Renee says Mr. Scott what happened between you and Nathan and Paul goes I murdered his uncle amongst other things I'll see you out there just totally matter of fact nonchalant and also almost ran into the door frame I don't know if you caught that I didn't

He leaned forward when he said the line And then he turned his head to the right And the doorframe was right there And he just sort of like bobbed his head And then moved out of the way Oh, so great Yep It seems like he's genuinely changing

Yeah, but then he walks into the room And he's like standing behind her in the mirror And puts his hand on her shoulders And just, ugh, gross Reminds me of that clip of Lucille Ball Was she on the Dick Cavett show or something? And he was walking through the audience and she keeps going, could you take your hands off her, please?

Yeah. You can ask her question. Don't touch her. That's right. It's really funny. And it made me think of that when Dan walked over and just, why are you standing behind her and why do you have your hands on her shoulders and why are you being creepy? Yeah, it's very domineering.

Listen, he needs a class on personal space and boundaries because do you remember how awkward he made it with the freaking twizzlers? the Red Vines and the intern last up or two episodes ago. And he was like, he got right up in that ear and was like, I forgive you. Oh, don't. Don't be angry from a distance with your hot breath in my ear. Pass. Your hot breath in my ear.

I'm sorry. I just need. You know when someone gets that close to that you can feel the heat of their breath? Nope. I'm out. Yeah, it's not good. I was just so surprised at this. I did not know that he was going to do that on the show with Renee.

I've forgotten completely what happened in that storyline. So it was really fun to watch as a viewer and not know. And when the lie detector test, first of all, when he brought out the lie detector, I was like, yeah, get her, Dan. And then she said he was the father of the baby and it said, true. And I was shocked. My mouth fell open. I had no idea that was coming.

And then the hits kept on coming. Mm-hmm. And it was so, I mean, as a viewer, to have the suspense, the drama, the shock, what a better choice than to have the lie detector test be real. Yeah. Because when he puts it on and he starts saying all this nonsense, I didn't murder my brother. I'm the president of the United States. And you just go, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God. It's not real. Oh, I loved it. Yeah. Well, and that also means that he is banking. on his son's character and integrity. His bluff is entirely predicated on the fact that he believes Nathan. Yeah.

Which was really sweet. I don't know if sweet's the right word, but it was impactful, you know? Because otherwise he's really damning Nathan on live television if it goes sideways. Yeah. It's sort of bittersweet, right? Because he says to Rachel near the end of the episode, I raised him. I know who he is. He has faith in his son and knows that it doesn't matter because he's never going to get his kid back. And it's such an interesting kind of cycle to be in

because she sees through his instinct to say he's fine. And she says, you know, are you hurt that maybe that's in the next episode that Nathan didn't say thank you. It's a really interesting story for Dan and Rachel to navigate together as a couple, because just like you realize he can tell all of these lies and the lie detector says they're true, it makes you look back and go, oh, wait, the second question was, my wife loves me. Oh, he said, I love my wife, right? I think he said my wife, Rachel, loves me. Oh, interesting. If I'm remembering correctly, either way. Yeah. And so it's a really interesting dynamic because on the one hand, She absolutely sees him.

She knows what hurts him. And on the other, he's irritated by her business prowess, but has also been saved by it. And when you realize he's sort of gone rogue with this lie detector and this whole thing, but then he's the genius who made up that there's a panel of experts. You're like, which one of these people? What am I watching? It's so fun to watch someone with nothing to lose. He's just flying free.

You never know what to expect. You never know what's going to happen. Yeah, I'm really enjoying this ride with him. I also just love, yeah, like you said, you never know what to expect. But he has a great line to Renee when he's interviewing her. And he's like, you know, we went through your past. And she's like, okay. And he says, you were a hostess in a club.

And she's quick to say, yeah, but there was no nudity. and he says, I understand, my wife was a stripper, a little bit of nudity. I love that. It's like, this man has just no filter or concern. Nothing to lose. Yeah, he's just not saying it to be mean, but he just doesn't care completely blowing up his wife's spot. And of course, Rachel, there's a quick shot of her being like, come on, bro. Yeah.

So much fun with those two. But on a different note, two people not having such a good time, David. in Quinn. I was very curious what you thought about the move of him dumping all of Quinn's stuff at Clay's house. It took me a second to even realize what was going on. Not just a second, actually. It took me a while. Maybe I wasn't paying attention or something I thought I was, but I really didn't get what was happening. I didn't know whose house they were at. Oh, you walk out. It's all her stuff. And then I was like, is this, is some girl that he slept with, dumped all of her stuff.

Is somebody, now, the Sarah dumped out Quinn's stuff on the yard. It was so confused. So he just dumped all of her suitcases open, like out all of, what a weird choice. Which also means that he went back to wherever their home is to collect the things she didn't take with her to Tree Hill, to bring them back, somehow know where Clay lives, even though he's only recently got there, and then not like confront Clay, but just throw said clothing all over the lawn of some other guy, not even her. It's like, why are you mad at me, too? Yeah. And David knows Nathan and Haley's house. well. We've seen flashbacks of them there. We see how close they are. You know, this is a long-standing

relationship. To figure out where Clay lives in this manner feels so borderline stalkery. Yeah. And the fact that he's had to transport all these things, I'm like, listen, if you got to pack an SUV with suitcases and boxes, you close them up. You zip the zippers, you tape the boxes. Now, he was making a statement. I don't know what the statement was because it sure as hell was petty to me. It just seems so silly to me. It is. It is. Could you imagine, though, if we had the scene of him doing that?

He's a grown man and he's not smashing my windshield. He's like, uh, throwing a bra on a tree. Stop. Throwing Lulu lemon sweats in a bush. That would be outrageous. It was so long ago that I'll say it feels like another life, but I kicked somebody out once. And I packed everything up. The boxes were passed.

They were sealed. and I dollied every fucking box to the end of the driveway and was like, here's your stack. Come get your shit. And it was, I've never been more mad in my life. And by the way, deserved to be. And I still used packing tape. Yes. Like the leggings in the bush.

It's just cool. It's so petty. Why? I mean, seriously, imagine what that looked like. Like, you know how a little kid toilet paper is a house? Yes. That's a grown man with a suitcase. or a duffel bag just walking around hanging a bra on a palm tree putting a pair of cute boy shorts on the

grass and the fact that it's not at where Quinn is staying the fact that it's at your place how great would a scene have been for you to be getting ready for this episode of Dan's show with Nathan and Quinn is like can I do anything I'll give you space I'll go to my room I don't know and you guys hear the doorbell ring and you like see David's car leaving and there's just all her stuff all in the driveway. And then we could have seen Haley and Quinn have a moment together. Instead of like weirdly, suddenly, Chantal has to march into the house with like office boxes that people take when they get fired and they steal the staplers. Like, this is what's happening?

I wish Clay would have walked out while David was in the middle of doing it and just caught him and been like, hey, bud. What are you doing with that bra? He's not here. it would have been great yeah exactly if David had looked up and been like here Quinn and then oh she's not she's not here in fact actually I haven't seen her in a couple of weeks uh yeah I keep sending her home I'm up here with my dead wife uh none of that looks like it's going to fit me buddy so can you just take it with you and leave it may look different but native culture is very alive my name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aimed to explore that culture.

It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornales, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive

while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something I think is really interesting when we talk about how this episode does so well in terms of how it weaves everyone's stories together, you know, from me saying to Julian surprise, and then David brings Quinn into the house and says, surprise, like all these little things. What struck me was realizing that we were seeing these couples at these various inflection points of are we in or are we out. you know, Quinn and David's marriage is dissolving. Rook and Julian are trying to figure out if they're really in this for the long haul. And those are so often the things we get to see in a show that is about relationships. And it was so powerful in this, are these two going to go deep?

These two are getting out of the deep end to have this view into grief. Because loss, when you're in your 20s, you may not know that many people who, been through loss, but by the time you're our age, everybody's lost somebody. And it hit me, I remember just being so moved by you, Rob, and Amanda Scholl, and the way that you carried out this storyline. But watching it from the frame of references I now have, the experiences I have, the things I've lived through since we shot this stuff, it, God, it just felt so, special to get to witness this third pillar of, you know, an enormous shift in someone's relationship. So, like, hats off to you, truly.

Oh, thanks. And Amanda Shul is so great. I thought she, it was, again, like, so effective and just showing this sweet relationship for me. I had totally forgotten that she was the one who asked me to marry her or ask Clay to marry her. I did. Oh, I loved that. It was fantastic. And because I knew what the end of their thing was going, their flashbacks were going to be, it made it especially devastating. Oh, it was like a dagger because it was just, she's, she's so great. And then she did this.

And it's like she's, she's his rock, you know? And they're so in love. And then it's just gone in a moment. So before, because this was the episode where it's the big giveaway, like we don't know that she's dead and that she's not a real person in your life until that moment. Yeah, I mean, we just find out in 707 that her name is even Sarah. It's the first time you say her name. Yeah. Oh, is that right? Yeah, I went, her name. That's right. Yeah, on the bridge, which was also, I wrote down best meet cute ever. It was just so fantastic and shot on the long lens. So it really

looked like an indie movie. I feel like we were in Elizabeth Town or something. It just was so cool. But I was wondering if you guys had conversations on the set about things that she could do or not do, touch or not touch, be involved in or not, you know, like in terms of being a figment of your imagination, she was painting her toenails twice in the context of like your house in the whole episode. I was like, how many times can this girl paint her toenails? Oh, yeah, she probably can't do a lot of other things for the sake of continuity. Do you remember any of those conversations? She's dead, Joy. She has a lot of free time to kill, okay? But I'm feeling like she can't go to your microwave and make popcorn or, like, you know, get into the pots and pans.

I do remember us sort of laying a couple of ground rules. And yes, I think it was interaction. Because did you even touch? No. Only jumping off the bridge. Well, that was when she was alive. Oh, that's right. Of course, because it's the flashback.

Of course, of course. the first time we meet her at a trick, right, when she disappears next to me. If you recall, there was a moment where I say, come home with me. And she says, well, that's up to you, isn't it? That's the first hint that she's not real. She's a figment of Clay's imagination. And then, yes, from there on now, every flashback, she's, you know, she's isolated. She does not interact with anything, you know, real because you're exactly right.

then we're sort of breaking the rules of, like, reality. So, no, she always sort of stayed on her own. One thing that I liked, I wrote down, you know, because she starts calling Clay on liking Quinn. She calls him out. And she says, why did you send her away? You like her. And my note was, you know, shit's about to get serious

when the dead wife goes to bat for the new. girl. Yeah. Oh, okay, but it's this cute thing, though, where it's like she really knows Clay. And also she's a figment of Clay's imagination. So like, of course she does. But it's sort of added to the sweetness. Because there's like a scene in 708 where she says, like you, he says like, or Clay says,

I could never love anyone the way I loved you. And she says something to the effect of Quinn and I say, no. And she goes, I could always tell when you were lying. Yeah. She's just that sweet thing of like, I see you. Yeah. Like, come on. Yeah.

Well, and one of the things I thought was really, again, it's profound to me in ways now that I don't think I could have understood it then. But when you guys have this conversation, when you are at the record player and you're turning on that song and we're finally going to get to learn what happened. And I wrote down. I was like, oh, my God, the record. Oh, my God, they're dancing. Oh, I have goosebumps. I know what's coming. Like, I was panicking because I knew that this phase of learning about you, too, was about

to get pierced for me. And I thought the way you talked about forgetting things about her and being so afraid that you're going to lose you two. I'm afraid I'm losing us. I don't remember certain things. I don't remember what you. smelled like the god the way that just like cut me to the core because there is and people don't always talk about it there is a trauma years after losing someone about letting anyone else

into this place that the person who's died occupied like how do you let someone into that space in your heart into that room, does someone moving into it, you know, take away what you can hold onto of this person that you've lost? And I thought her telling you to open the door was so, it was like there was nothing she could say in response because that's your pain and just to say you have to. Like, you're still here. open the door it has to change at some point there was space for all of it and none of it was downplayed and again just as a person now who's been through loss that i hadn't been at 27 i cherish the way you guys got to handle that it was beautiful and i i love that the speech

isn't i'm lonely i miss you it's not fair i love that it's it's that i'm i'm losing you Like it really to me just spoke to like how much he loved her and not just being married and having a partner, but it was specifically about her. And fun slash sad behind the scenes of that scene, I remember rehearsing it and liking the way it felt, liking the emotion where I was at emotionally, and then us shooting my coverage and I didn't feel like I got to where I wanted. and I was so upset with myself because I was like James was a buddy

and I remember afterwards when he was like it's great we got it and I remember I was so upset with myself I actually started crying like I kind of just choked up apologizing him but I walked away and like actually was I was so upset with myself that I felt like I was

the story I was telling myself was I'm letting my friend down and then I was actually crying like I thought I wanted to do in the scene in the scene So it was funny to watch it back now and go like, that's a totally fine level right there. Yeah. You didn't need to be weeping. No, I have, actually, that's a huge note that I have in this, that you, I am consistently impressed and surprised by you, Rob, because your subtlety, your groundedness, watching that performance in particular, what you're talking about made me feel safe as an audience member.

Like, I didn't feel like I was watching an actor that was perfect. performing and there's a, have you ever seen a play or you watch just something and you're like, ooh, I went to see some shows recently in the West End and there was a particular actress in a role that was really a wonderful actress, but she had trouble hitting the high notes. And every time she started to sing and get close to the notes, you could tell, everybody was like holding their breath a little bit like, oh, oh God, are you going to get it? Are you going to get there? And it's not a great feeling as an audience member.

You really want to relax. And I felt like when I watched that performance that you gave, I felt so safe. Like, I wasn't worried at all. I wasn't like, is he going to cry? Is it going to, are you milking it? Is he going to be like trying to take his moment to be emotional and show everybody that he can cry on camera? No, you were just so dropped in. To me, it felt like you were exactly realistically.

Because loss isn't all of a sudden like that. Like what you're talking about, Sophie. It takes a long time. You know, there's the initial shock and then there's the anger and the bargaining and all the steps that you go through. But he's holding on to her because it does take a long time to like let go slowly, like untangle. And that's what I felt from that performance. So whatever was going on in your head, that was just some negative self-talk man because you rocked it. Yeah, which I had a lot of back then.

And the other thing, too, is that this might be a conversation he's had with her 50 times. Yeah. He might have had this conversation every single night, you know? So it's another reason why, like, it might not be explosive because this might be the 30th time he's saying these words to her. You know, so I remember wanting just to keep it honest. That's always the North Star is like, is it honest? Is this honest and grounded? But I was at the tail end of my, because this was still early in my career where I thought,

sadness equaled tears. Sure. We all did in our 20s. We all did. I was like, keep it honest, but if it's sad, I need to cry. And so there was this bunting of heads where I was like, that work felt honest, but I didn't cry so I missed the mark. Yeah. What was your, you may have talked about this and forgive me if you have, but remind me a bit

about your experience as an actor before this show. Like, were you hired to do dramatic work a lot or were you doing mostly? comedy or no drama are you so my first kind of first job was a a nighttime soap opera shout out to remember my network tv channel 13 in l.A i did a i did a nighttime soap did 60 episodes as a self-contained series did another nighttime soap and then um then my next like proper job was lipstick jungle so it was yeah you know it was it wasn't like HBO drama but it was you know like one tree hill level drama however i will say going back watching this this was me getting thrown into the deep end i had never had to do real pain because this is a different kind of pain like losing

that's what i'm saying yeah yes this was a this was a first for me which is again i had no touchstone for this role so i didn't know if like yeah am i am i doing this love story a disservice by not being more devastated you know because all i'd ever done before is like i got cheated on my girlfriend dumped me but i love him yeah Yeah, exactly. So it was a first. Yeah, I mean, this, dude, Clay, like I was saying, like Hillary, I remember listening last season to the show and going, dude, she's getting put through the ringer. And I thought about my thing.

And then in the episode with her, when she was like, tell me if your character ever went through these things. And I realized, oh, my gosh, you know, Clay's got put through it too. Uh-huh. Yeah. And then at least, at least as the show goes on, Clay gets to sort of, he walks through fire. And he gets out on the happy, silly side, you know. Yeah. How fun, though, that you get to, you really got to dive in emotionally, dig deep emotionally.

Dude, the funeral scene? I remember shooting that. Yeah. And it was just me in a coffin, you know? And again, it was like, you know, what does this look like losing something? And I remember, so again, this is very early on for me, but I remember I didn't, I didn't really know the best way to do this. So I was just like, I just got to stay in the sorrow pocket. So for about a day or two leading up to that scene, I was just isolated in my apartment, watching a lot of that movie The Fountain.

Have you seen that with Rachel Weiss and Hugh Jackman? Devastating. If you haven't, there's this scene in it where it's a Darren Aronofsky film, so I understand about 28% of the whole movie. But it's about a doctor who's working on a cure for this rare disease that his wife has and is going to be dying for him soon. And so it's him like racing against time to try to say the love of his life. But there's this one scene where he comes home from a late night of work. And he just like snuggles, she's asleep in bed and he snuggles up next to her. And he lays there for a moment. And then he gets out of bed and he tiptoes to the bathroom. And he just weeps as quietly as he can.

And I remember that resonated with me. So I just watched that movie for like a day and a half. Because I didn't know again, like, I have to cry because that's the only way to show. how sad I am. So it was, it was not efficient. What sort of director was James in that environment? Because he was pretty new. Like,

how did he handle? He was great because he was hands off. I think maybe he could tell I was putting myself through it enough. And I, I care. I think we, we came over to my apartment and we sat down and we talked through all of our stuff. So that kind of freed us up on the day for him,

like for us to do a blocking rehearsal. And then it was just sort of like, go. Yeah. You know, we'll find it, you know. And so there was a lot of.

freedom with it with him. That's great. But yeah, but this was like, I remember the stress of this episode because it's like, I'm the new guy. I've always told myself, I'm not a guy who cries. I don't know how to do that. And all of a sudden, I'm like, come on, a dead wife and a funeral. Oh, no. Oh, God. Rob, I can't remember it's murky for me because I know that I gave this book because I couldn't stop talking about it when it came out to our boss. In 2007, in this book called Love is a Mix tape came out and this incredible writer Rob Sheffield who comes from music journalism like you know he's the he's like the real deal of Peyton Sawyer um he wrote this memoir about his wife dying of a brain aneurism in their house

and it was like it's still one of the most beautiful books I've ever read in my life and the whole thing he sort of takes you on this nonlinear journey of like the albums they fell in love to and the concerts they used to go to and and how all of this music helps him process this unimaginable loss. Did I give you a copy of the book? I don't think so. God, what a, I bungled it. Missed opportunity. I think I must have assumed like, oh, well, they'll tell you to read this book because like none, you know, in season, I guess it would have been five, like nobody stopped talking about it. You know, they always say if you want something done right, do it yourself. Not necessarily that you would like to really dip back

into it, but if you have any free time coming up for any reason lately soon, what are the words I'm looking for? Can I speak to? Hello, words. Can I just tell you your English is getting so much better, Sophia? Thank you. Thanks, Rob. So much better now than when I was like in journalism school. but it's so beautiful and again I don't think I could have understood it then the way I feel like I can understand it watching you do it now the encouragement to push tears which all of us got in our 20s like can you just make it a little more emotional can we just get like a tear what a weird sense of direction to give a young person but to be able to play actual pain rather than to try to show it off. It made me think watching you do this episode in particular a lot about the book

about certain ways that the author described this sort of pain that burned so big that it almost hollowed you out. Like it felt so enormous that you almost couldn't feel anything at all. And the way that you're explaining letting yourself feel it instead of trying to push it out of you, I guess this is the most long-winded way of saying, I think you did it perfectly. Oh, thank you for saying that. It's beautiful. Yeah, I was curious to hear what your thoughts on it were because I will be honest when I watched it. Half of me was like, okay, that's grounded.

Like, okay. And the other half of me felt like I was watching a little kid play dress up. Oh. Like I was going like, I hope and I hope other people are on board. Like, it's just because it's me and I also know where I was back then. But I remember at the time, after this episode aired, a friend of a friend of a friend reached out to me and said

he had lost his wife to a brain aneurism and he basically said he's like you you played that beautifully and that is what that pain was like and it was yeah it was so nice because again especially back then with like my imposter syndrome I was like I bricked it that was terrible so to have this grown man say

I felt like you told that story well it was a really nice attaboy to get back And I think it just also, it really helps immediately make sense of everything we've seen Clay doing so far in terms of being distant. I don't believe in love. Non-committal. You're like, no, I completely get it. And I also love the way that we got to flash back and see David and Quinn. Yeah.

Because we've had nothing substantive, very, very little substantive from these two. Yes. And this was the first time where it's like, great. Now we see where it used to be. We see how the change. Yeah, now we're getting the real answer. It's not just like, oh, we changed. Oh, it's like, oh, okay.

He's throwing your clothes on the lawn of some other guy. And, okay, there was an obsession about money. And there was this like, you're starting to see how the pieces are coming together. The flashbacks were really, really useful. And one time, Rob, when you didn't look like you were playing dress up as a little boy in that scene. But the scene that you did was when you walked. out in the suit and the way that you were holding your body, the way, this is right before she proposed to you with your arms forward. She's like, just put on some jeans. That's good because

in that scene, that's what we were going for. Yes, it made me laugh so much. It was so great. It was really funny. But yeah, the flashbacks were really useful. And I thought they did them. We've always done flashbacks pretty well in our show. I like that that's a device that we use often. I do too. One thing, we were. that was super weird to me was the house party with Renee, just by the way. I don't know if any, did you guys notice that? That like all the lights were on. I'm like, what time is this party? And who? It was so bright in there. It was so bright. It was also a little bit heavy handed that Clay goes, he goes, all right, I go to take the picture and I go, okay, make it sexy, but not too

sexier. That'll cost us 20 million next year. And I took the picture. Okay, guys. I was like, Oh, there it is. There, there it is. Yeah, I liked that we finally get to see Brooke tell Julian that she was planning on proposing on the beach. Yeah, all these reverse proposals. That was such a beautiful, sad moment that I was kind of disappointed that that was just going to be where it lived and died. And so I was really happy this episode that Brooke circled back and told him that. Yeah.

Yeah, I am too. It felt really important. And what I appreciate in the same way that I felt like I got to understand Clay's behavior because we got to learn where he came from. I got to understand this idea. I thought the flashbacks with Quinn and David that you were just talking about Joy finally let us understand what that line, people are allowed to change and they're allowed not to. I was like, I get it, I see it.

I see how he changed and thought it was great, and I see how him changing absolutely broke her heart. They just grew apart. I get it. And what I like is that I got the backstory for these two new characters that we already have for Brooke Davis. Yeah. Like we know how deeply imprinted she has been by Lucas's betrayal,

by feeling as though she, you know, isn't the one who ever really gets chosen that, you know, I think one of the things I now feel weirdly even more connected to her on is this feedback of, well, you have a really big life, and it's really hard for someone to be with you. And it's especially hard for a man to not have his ego bruised when his girl is fill in the blank. Like to see all of that stuff in her come out in that sad, sad moment when he asks on the dock, did you mean, it and she says, I did then. And he says, but not anymore. I wanted to sob. I was like, what is, what does Brooke answer? What do you say? She says, I'm not sure. I don't know.

Yeah, she says, I don't know anymore. Isn't that interesting how time, you know, you can feel so passionately in one moment and then like a couple few things happen and you're like, huh. And you can think you know where you stand with someone and then something happens you learn something and you go oh everything I thought isn't really the full picture and is this full picture safe for me is this full picture good for me and and I loved and I think we talked about this a little bit last week so often we move through things so fast on this show and finally it feels like we're in a time where we're letting things breathe I like that they didn't clean it up I like that she said I don't know anymore.

And I loved that instead of trying to convince her, he admits that he didn't know. And then he just apologizes. And he's like, I'm still here. Okay, this is where we are now. Yeah. I'm sorry that I hurt you. And it just has to be there. And she has to work through everything from her past that's triggered, everything he did

in the present that wasn't really up to par. And figure out, can I make room for this person to be a flawed human? or are there flaws going to harm the human that I am? Man, that is the thing. The fact that he does, you're right, the fact that he does just stay right there. Because you could do that forever, right? Grab pieces of information to complete the picture. I don't know if we ever get a full complete picture of another person, even if it's

your spouse or your child. Like, you know, we could never be anybody other than ourselves. Yeah. So you're always going to be gathering new pieces of information, which. which then could change the narrative about how you feel or what you think or how you want to approach your relationship with them. Yeah. But the mark of someone who is willing to just stay there and be like, okay, the new information makes you feel differently, I'm here for that. Let's see what happens next.

Yeah, he responded rather than reacted. Yes. Yeah. And it was so refreshing to see it modeled, especially on our show, because, you know, we did fall into a lot of, early and mid-aughts tropes and we did have a lot of really bad behavior and and i i just love how grown up all this stuff feels that everything we're dealing with in this season you know even even watching nathan and haley go through this you guys being trapped having to watch this show the way i felt as a viewer and a friend when it finally clicks and and and rene bursts into tears because she

she screwed up and he finally bursts into tears because it's been so awful and she's actually finally taking her first deep breath. Like the humanity of everyone feels really real and it doesn't feel tropey and it doesn't feel soapy in it. Yeah. And it's, I don't know, I felt really proud of us watching this. You knew that even back then though because I have this in my little, one of my little notes says relaxed Brooke. Relaxed Brooke. Relaxed Brooke. Because you had your, like, sweatshirt on or whatever this, like, loose t-shirt was, your hair wasn't done. I mean, you looked really pretty, but, like, it wasn't the Brooke that we're always seeing with the makeup. And it was just, like, I love that you even had that instinct back then.

Like, we're just doing raw humanity right now. Can we please stop with, like, Brooke needs a break? Yeah, like, I don't need full pin curls for this, you guys. Please. It really served the story, though. It was a great choice. Yeah, it's nice to be able to be a little. bit bare as an actor to match your appearance to your emotion because Brooke is really a raw nerve

in this and I think it would have to your point felt really weird if she was in a full close over bros outfit yeah in this conversation with julian we all would have been like what is going on here when did she have time to put on eyeliner yeah well and it speaks to how much she's struggling because Brooke normally is so put together so for her to not be as polished as usual speaks to the fact that she's struggling Yeah

It may look different but native culture is very alive My name is Nicole Garcia And on Burn Sage Burn Bridges We aim to explore that culture It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for the kinds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence.

That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first native comic. or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. How did it feel, Joy, because I'm wondering, similarly to this, you know, you asking Rob about what it was like to have James direct his big emotional scenes.

How did it feel for you two to be shooting all of this stuff? You know, Nathan and Haley essentially captive audience members, you know, can't go outside of their own home. They're getting followed around and all the things. What was it like to shoot that really emotional stuff with you and James while he was directing? Do you do you remember or is it kind of a blur? The emotional stuff was not too difficult for me ever probably because I was living in a prison of emotional hell during the time that we were filming so I think I was happy for any chance to leak but James I do remember was as you said to Rob a bit hands off with the actors which I appreciated so much it's not that he didn't have ideas it was that he knew that he just trusted us like he knew that we knew our

characters. He trusted us to do our job. He trusted the lighting guys to do their job. He dressed at the set deck to do their job, which is really, I think, what a great director does. They are quality control, as Paul Johansson would always say. Like, directing is just quality control. You just show up and trust that everybody else knows what they're doing. And you can guide and, you know, share your creative ideas, but we don't need to, like, micromanage everybody's job. And so I think James was mentored by Paul in that a lot as well. And, you know, And I really enjoyed working with him. I don't know if he likes directing and acting at the same time.

I would like to ask him that. He also, like I find so many actors who become directors, you know the things you don't like to hear as an actor. Like there is, I, it's such a pet peeve, man. If, like, if say before the funeral scene, if a director walked up to me and goes, okay, so in this scene, the love of your life is dead. And now you're at our coffin. It's like, bitch, I read the script.

I know what I'm, I'm in a fucking. church right now. I know what the scene is. Like, I hate it. Or people would be like, remember, this is a really big scene. Oh, is it? Thank you. This is my first time reading these sides. Thanks for that clue. It's like, go back to video. If that's all you have to share, just go back to Video Village and scream action. Yes. Yes. Let me work. And then if you can fine tune me, but please don't come in and explain the action text of the script to me. No, it's infuriating, actually. And it takes you out of the moment because now you're like, now my pride is hurt. Now you Right before I do this scene, you're telling me that you think I'm a shitty actor. Thank you.

And especially when you have to do a scene like that, you have to be open emotionally. And I think people forget this about actors. They think we have like on-off switches, you know, like we're wind-up toys. And when you have come in completely laid bare because you're getting ready to just see where it goes. Yeah. And someone talks to you like you're a fucking dip shit. at least for me, I can be like, oh, interesting, this person, okay, but if I'm in that state where I'm so emotionally open and I'm not prepared, it's exactly like you said, it gets in me in a way that I'm like, who are you? What do you think we do here? Do you think we don't read scripts?

It makes me so much more upset than it would if I were just walking down the street and it happened. know yeah absolutely you're so emotionally open but oh my god for somebody to be like so the backstory is you're like do you work with people who don't do their homework because we do our homework here dude especially on a tv show where the directors are just guns for hire like we live with the character every single week yeah you are a visitor here but like it's because what really gets me i don't know about you but it's because for me it's not that it's just unhelpful and a waste of time it is actually what is the word I'm looking for it's not that it's unhelpful it's that it's destructive that it's destructive or counterproductive because the

problem is now I'm I'm pissed off at you I'm now using my energy to decide how I'm even going to respond to that and now I've all the all the work where I was at now is gone because now I'm just thinking about what a stupid thing that was to say so it's like I get infuriating because I'm like now I'm just pissed off at you and I'm not even focused on the same. scene. Because you're being, essentially, you're being emotionally punched instead of emotionally hugged. And you're like, this scene requires an emotional hug. And then the worst part is, and I'm sure there's people at home being like, oh, poor actors. The worst part is, because if it hasn't happened to you and you don't get how destabilizing it is, nobody cares. Nobody's sympathetic. And you're

like, okay, so I have to now use my brainpower to figure out how to respond to this person and not be rude, even though what they've just done is actually so rude. But if I match their energy, I'm going to get called difficult. Oh, yeah. So it's like you have to navigate this really weird experience and still be nice, sweet and cute, wild. You can have to roll the camera and go sob over a coffin? No, no, thank you. I got to go.

It's so hard. And you want to use it. Like, when that stuff happens to me in that kind of emotional context, I want to use it. Like, I want to allow the anger to just get in even further because at least I can do something with it. But then, like you're saying, managing letting the anger do what it's going to do, but also not being a rude human in that moment. Like, you've got to split your personality and two all of a sudden in one moment and like hold the left side of your personality with all of these emotions and anger and everything. But then the right side of your personality has to be like, yes, uh-huh, thank you so much. Could I also please have a coffee with a little cream on the side?

And I would just wait by my chair, please? Yeah, could I please figure out how to send you away from me? Yeah. in the classiest way possible because I would like to scream men don't get called difficult so I've had a couple of times where I've like I'm recently

I said I do a director who we got along well but he came up and he gave me a good note and an offensive note like a stupid note like that and I just took a beat and I looked at him and I went one of those notes was helpful

I got to rob you're my idol he just took a moment and went because he was also an actor and he went fair and he walked away. That's iconic. Because what's nice about that is like, I've let you know that that was stupid,

but like we're good. I'm not carrying it into the scene with me. But yeah, I'll just go like, yeah, not helpful. Yeah. You got to use it or let it go.

I've been learning more to just let it go. Like immediately just assume the best. This is a good person. They want the show to be the best thing. They weren't thinking about it. I don't have time to process this. And you just say thank you

and let them go on their, Mary way. And then you go home and stew about it once the scene is over and you've cried your guts out over the coffin. Yeah. It's not easy. Yeah. I think what started to help me was figuring out the reframe of like we were saying, Rob, when someone talks to you like that, you're standing there going, do you think I'm stupid? Do you think I haven't read the script? I don't understand what we're doing. We're expending emotional energy on nonsense. For me, even if it's not true, what I have found the most helpful is to go, oh, they just want to prove to me that they've also done their homework. Because people know I like homework. So maybe this person who I've only known for 48 hours

really just wants me to know they've done their homework. Because obviously they assume I've done my homework. And that is how I have to talk myself out of the imposter syndrome thing that I think we all were raised with and unfortunately had encouraged in our early workspace that we shared. And it's like I have to psych myself out of it in a different way. And if I can do that, if I can split my brain into just enough to do that, I'm like, look at me being my highest self instead of my, like, sensitive inner five-year-old. Look at that. Progress. I'll tell my therapist.

It's working. Well, and that's like over time, the two things that I have learned as well to sort of help me reframe that whole experience is one, new directors or insecure directors feel like they always have to be. be doing something and so it could be that which has nothing to do with me also especially an episodic work there's an onset producer watching that director work so that director may just want the producer to see them interacting with actors doing something exactly but what actors what they don't know is that they can walk up to actors and be like the producer's watching me and so they really want to know that I'm giving you a note so could you just nod your head and look like I'm saying something meaningful to you.

And we're totally on board. Like we're nothing if not collaborative. We want to make it work. Yes. So true story. I recently worked on something where the onset producer didn't have the best ideas, but they had a lot of ideas. And so I could tell at one point the director when he came over and he gave a note to

myself and my co-star, I went, is that your note or is that their note? And he kind of like made sure they weren't looking. And he said, that's their note. I said, here's what we're going to do going forward. When you come up to us, say pineapple, and then tell us the note so that we know it's not yours. So he'd walk up and be like, okay, just one second, guys, we didn't get set. Pineapple. Tip your hat to her and say, my lady at the start of the scene.

I'm like, great, you got it. I know, like, I don't have to do that. That's not his name. Yeah. Yeah, but also he needs to know that he should be doing that with actors because then you know that he's not a terrible director. Yeah, because that's the thing, right? If I'm hearing him give terrible notes, I immediately go, this guy doesn't have my back. So now it's up to me to make sure I don't look like an asshole.

Right. And that's not how I'm going to do my best work if I'm performing and covering my butt. No. You want to feel safe because it's in the safety that you relax enough to have the unexpected happen. And when you're looking around going, uh-oh, I've made a big mistake by choosing to work with this energy, that's a recipe. for disaster. So how nice to be like, listen. I have thoughts.

Some other people have thoughts. I will tell you when they're my thoughts and when they come from. Yeah, just rub your chin. Just scratch your shoulder when it's not your idea. I love that. That's funny. Oh, we're winding up, guys. Is there anything else in this episode we need to talk about?

Let's see, the music was great. I had orange hair still. which really is a problem. There were so many blue dresses in this episode, too, which is also strange. I don't know if you noticed. Yeah. There was a lot of attempts at interjecting color. I feel like we kind of glossed over.

We talked about it a little bit, but I feel like we glossed over the Nathan and Haley stuff. But I guess maybe it's because you just had to sit there and be a captive audience, right? And then the relief came in the end. And then we got that beautiful sequence with you guys outside talking about your lives. And we finally got our Ava Brothers song that the episode is titled after. And it felt like such a nice respite for you too. Yeah. I guess I just wanted to say that.

I really loved the way it wrapped up. Yeah. And you had a great moment. I think it's after the news breaks. And there's the sigh of relief. And Nathan says, you're going to. No, I'm so sorry, Haley. I shouldn't have been at that party drinking.

Yes. And you, Haley, responded with, dude, like, you're actually say, you're still young. I think we forget that sometimes. And I thought that was such a good moment because he was kind of, he was kind of right, but he was kind of just raking himself over the coals. And I love that. Like, what a loving partner thing to do to go, no, you can take yourself off that hook. Yes.

Yeah, you're allowed to go out and drink and have a fun time without having some launch a attack against you. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind

it's weird, you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Will we have a listener question, kids? Before we move on, we have a question from Sarah Beth, and this is a pretty big episode about people's journeys, so maybe we have thoughts. She asks, if your character had a time capsule, what three items would they include and what do those items represent about their journey? Oh, my goodness.

I think for Clay, it would be Sarah, Quinn, and Cherry, the three lives of his life. In a box? In the capsule. It's a very big capsule. Humans. Because those are his three loves. Well, Cherry was a chair that we meet in like season nine, I think. That's right.

that he's like irrationably obsessed with. So I would say it's the three loves of Clay's life, Sarah Quinn and Cherry. Wow, that's a quick answer. I got a pee, guys. I had that one locked and loaded. Okay, I'll move fast. Haley is going to have, I mean, I would say the little bracelet, you know, the little crackerjack bracelet, except what happens if the time capsule gets like dug up by some

hooligan kids and then she loses it forever? I don't know. I don't think Haley's going to bury some things in a time capsule. Maybe Jamie's like bracelet from the hospital and a yearbook. And I think she probably stole Julius Caesar from Lucas and put that in the time capsule. Yeah, that feels right. I feel like Brooke would have either one of her campaign posters or that Brooke Davis for president, PIN. Yes.

Because running for student council president changed the course of her life. I feel like she would probably have one of those first dresses. that she feverishly sewed like a magical worker for the first closeover bros launch. And then I think she would put Julian's letterman jacket. Yes. Oh, wait, I'm amending mine because now I think she needs Quentin's paper on LeMiz. I think that's going in the time capsule too.

Yeah, okay, I love that. Oh, cute. Well, now let's spin a wheel. Oh, what do we have today? Most likely to only date someone with a compatible zodiac sign. I have no idea. Is anyone neurotic enough for that in real life that we know? Like superstitious, like really superstitious?

I'm going to go out and say Zelda from episode 7.08. Oh, yes. Coming Zelda. Honestly, genius. I agree. Cosign. So good. Yes. Guys, we have to get into it. Let's get right into 708, friends. I mean, you'll get it next week, but we're going to dive into season seven, episode eight. I just died in your arms tonight. Can't wait. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. This is over. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's OTH. Or email us at drama queens at iHeartRadio.com.

See you next time. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl, cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you're tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture.

Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast.