Drama Queens - Dan the Man • EP114

Episode Date: September 27, 2021

Paul Johansson aka Dan Scott is here! The Drama Queens consider Paul their "big brother", always protecting them and giving them much needed advice (including teaching them everything they know about wine).Find out what Paul really thinks of his character, as he reveals the drama of being Dan Scott...strangers don't want to sit next you on a plane and (true story revealed) some even attack you in the street!Plus, hear how a broken heart ended Paul’s professional Olympic basketball career, the surprising life path he almost took, and how the desire for a family led him down a road to us as everyone’s favorite "bad dad" on One Tree Hill. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama, girl, cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion with your tough girl, you could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. is Pajama Week on Drama Queen's. We are together.

I hope you were able to join us for our live event, which was super flirty. Oh, so fun. Yeah. But now that we've gotten to work in pajamas, I don't know why we would ever work in normal clothes again. Yeah, I feel like this needs to become our new staple. Yeah. We loved it, and we decided that since we're together for the weekend, we might as well just be in pajamas and drink champagne the whole time. Glamour.

Cheers. well today we've been Sophia you do it because you said that go ahead she knows guys normally when we have our favorite friends and guests come on the show you know we we get on here the three of us we talk about the episode we recap and then we welcome them in but we have been talking about today's guest I think every single time we've gotten together since we started this and we really just want to get him in the room so we'll talk about the episode with him please welcome our favorite bad dad

Paul Johansson as Dan Scott come up PJ where you at bad dad look how bad daddy is oh you are so swarthy I can't see look at this bone structure I love you

know where's my drink where is it a drink to Paul a toast to Paul Johansson who was our favorite wine connoisseur on the set of one tree hill you took care of all of us you made sure we got home safely best advice giver i mean talk about advice giver like paul we love you so much thank you you were always our champion you were like

the cool big brother we all wished we'd had you're the reason that any of us knows how to drink wine and and honestly you oh i don't want to go for it do it do it we've had an emotional morning we've had a really emotional morning. Paul, you were really, like, you were our North Star. You were the man who kept us safe. I agree. So hi, and we love you. Thank you. I, uh, oh, wow. We've been crying all day. He's not bad in real life, guys. He's really lovely. He's really the best. We love you so much, Paul. You always looked out for us. It's very sweet and very important. for me to hear that from you thank you for saying that all of you um it means a lot i i i don't know i mean i just want to well first up i want to say that you know i i know that willie was really

close to i know especially you helped and i know that um i've been him a few times at chris notes house and a few places and what an amazing soul of a man just a beautiful person and so i feel your loss and I want to tell you that. Well, it feels really nice to be with our OTH family, you know, like our white collar family is so awesome and so strong and it's so weird to think that casting directors have so much control over the friendships and the families that we form. But it's true and, you know, to run into the arms of the girls here today and to, you know, talk with you, it feels good to be surrounded by our chosen family.

And, you know. Fun, because the casting really kind of nailed it on this one. Yeah. Like for all of us. What a plan. Well, we want to talk about your career because you, when did you start acting? You were a young whippersnapper like we were when you, what was it? So, I mean, take us through how you got started.

Well, oh my gosh. It is a bizarre story, but it's, those are the best. I was in love with a girl. That does it. In Canada. And I was in college and I thought I was going to be playing in the NBA and I was playing on the Canadian national team traveling the world and having these beautiful experiences with all these basketball players and thought I was going to go to the Olympics

and I got cut. My reason I got cut and I will say this, I really believe this in my heart was my girlfriend and I broke up a week before the Olympic training period started. When I got there, my head was a... Oh, you were heartbroken. This is like a storyline from the show. Yeah, really Nathan. And the coach shook me aside and said,

I just, I can't take you with us. It's just... And during that time, I was in these classes of Vancouver, these theater sports. Remember the theater sports? Where everyone would go and do improv comedy? Oh, yeah. Yeah, like improv stuff.

Yeah. Back of the day, right? And there was a guy in there named Jason Priestley, and there's a couple other actors, Bernie Chris. Oh, just that guy. Just that guy. And we were all nobodies, and we'd auditioned for some crazy Hollywood thing. And two days after I got back to Vancouver after I was cut from the Olympic team,

I thought my life was over. And I lost my girlfriend. My life was over. And this guy called me from Hollywood. and said, hey, I'd like you to fly you to L.A. And I want to see if you and I, you know, can maybe have, we'll see if you're, if you're, if what I think you could be in this industry. And I saw a tape you did in Vancouver and, and I saw I call this guy and I said, who is this

guy that just called me and should I be worried and what's this about? He goes, yeah, you know, you should go, you should go to Hollywood. Because it's before you could Google people. I mean, you didn't know if it was like an escort service, Paul. I mean, you were very tall and handsome and you still aren't. Oh, my God. Well, I was a different person then, and I had no interest in acting. I was just doing it for fun, and I was just running around.

But this guy flew me to Hollywood. Wow. In 1980, it was so long ago that it doesn't have a number. That's a long ago. I got there. And he picked me up in a limousine and took me to one of his theaters. No way. Is it a limo?

He sent a limo. He owned three or four little 99 seat equity waiver theaters that he owned and all of his actors in his group had to do two plays a year. We all, and so he introduced me some actors.

I met Gregory Harrison. I met some other guys. Oh, wow. That was Austin's dad, right? Or your dad? My dad. He's very handsome. He's also very tall and handsome.

And it was at this theater. He was doing a play called Child's Play at the West Coast Playhouse. And anyway, so Frank just basically said, look, he goes, after a couple days, I like you. He put me up with the Beverly Joy. We had dinner there the other night.

The Beverly Garland. Oh, yeah, the Garland. That's where I stay when I cut the Beverly Garland. I love the Beverly Garland. She's such a glamorous lady. Oh, yes. And he said, I'm going to put you in acting classes, movement classes.

Definitely voice classes. It's a hatred Canadian accent. Sorry, but it's got to go. Sorry. Sorry. And he literally just believed in me and Jason too. And so he paid for an apartment for me and Jason. He gave us a car to drive.

No strings attached? No strings attached. No, no, no. Back then it was about building talent. It was about getting like. Can you imagine? What? No, I've never heard of such a thing.

They wanted you trained. They wanted you to do theater. I did a repertory Shakespeare company. He wanted you to be trained. And then he would let you audition. Wow. But not after a year or two of real training. Like, you couldn't even audition.

Wow. It was important to him. You just don't focus on making money. Focus on getting good. Yeah. Wow. And he kind of, he groomed a lot of actress and actresses that way. And he built a really nice table.

He had a good living. Unfortunately, four years later, on the set of my step mother's to space alien that Kim Basinger movie, he had an accident and died. Oh, no. Oh, I didn't get. to sort of show him that I became Dan Scott. Oh, Paul, he'd be so proud of you. I mean, you really are a Shakespearean bad guy with all those layers of, I'm good, I'm bad.

Yeah, you can do everything. I mean, that's why your career has spanned it so many various genres and just I feel like you could go into any time period. You can play a good guy. You can play a bad guy. You're so talented and you've got, and I think it's largely because of you're such curious person and the way that your outlook is on the world, you're constantly asking questions and learning about people. I've never been in a taxi with you where you didn't want to talk

to the driver and ask them about their life and where they're from and the janitor who's cleaning up the, you know, coke that somebody spilled in the corner. You want to talk to that guy. Paul always does invite the waiter to sit at the table and have a drink when the shift ends because you know we're going to shut the place down. Like being in Paris with Paul and he's just like, we'll save one for you. Here, let's go ahead and, like, order it right now. You sit down when you're done. But it's giving you... One day I'm going to need a job, and I want to make sure they can put it in.

No. I mean, Paul, you were the reason we became such good friends with Hank at Deluxe. He became, like, our local, you know, our local uncle in town who gave us all the info on Wilmington. And I was thinking about you, when I moved to Chicago, there's a restaurant there that before it was trendy, had a thing where you could buy a six-pack for the kitchen on the menu. That's amazing. And I was like, do these people know Paul Johansson? What's going on here?

I just, every time I see someone be so generous with people that way, I always think of you. Well, you paint a very sweet picture of me. It's going to be hard to live up to that. It's accurate. But you can't see yourself, but we see you very well. It's true. And all that experience, you know, has given you such a breadth and an ability to tap into the vast amount of human experience, which you really brought to Dan. And one of the great things about Dan was that, I mean, arguably he was the most, the character with the largest trajectory on the show of change.

And I mean, I think all the layers that you brought to him, it could have just been one note. But instead, he became an iconic character that ended up having this great story of redemption by the end. And it took nine seasons to get there. But let's start at the beginning because we don't have. Yeah, what was your teen drama experience? because you worked on shows like ours in the 90s. Well, I think that, you know, the closest resemblance was 902 and O, which was, in its day, massive. Scandalous.

Yes. Yeah. And it built the TV studio for Fox. It really did. I mean, it was the, you know, that really started it all off of them. But, you know, I remember going places with Jason and when Jason hosted Saturday Night Live and when Luke was hosting, you know, shows. and the amount of fans that would show, you know, pre, you know, social media, you know, it was about being there and experience it.

And they didn't have their phones all up. They were, like, engaging. And it was really, really kind of phenomenal to watch. Can you guys imagine being in a club and seeing Paul, Jason Priestley, and Luke Perry all walk in? Like, I would. Even if they weren't famous. Like, that many good-looking men in one space. Yeah.

Like, wow. Great time, right? Falling over. Best time ever. I mean, you know, honestly, I wish I could, if I could do one thing with Winter Hill, I wish I could go back and have more awareness of myself as like my, because, you know, we had so little off time. We worked so hard on that show.

We were there so much. I wish that I would have spent more time kind of productive in my off time, you know. was trying to have a life with you guys and I was 15 years older than you guys. I was trying to have a life trying to find my place in a city, you know, where I'm, you know, like you guys, I, you know, I often don't feel like I have a place. And so I try to create one. And so the people that became my friends were you guys, even though we were so much different in age, it was kind of remarkable to watch you guys go through so many things I'd seen Jason go through or what Luke or Shannon or any of those guys had gone through.

And it was amazing to see how different you guys handled it than they did. They were in Hollywood growing up and you were in Wilmington. We probably dodged a bullet. I think so too. You mean, you guys are, you know, salt of the earth kind of people and so were they. And I think, but I think the mechanics of the industry are hard, you know, and they take a lot out of you. So maybe that distance was in a weird way what made. it kind of a special experience for me, you know?

It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why. Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Well, we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacist. Bad faith political warfare, and frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up.

You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it? didn't make. Yes, that's right.

Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Can you tell us how you got the part? Oh, yeah. What was the thing? What had it go? What did I think Brian Robbins gave it to me?

I played basketball with Brian and James Lappertie in this entertainment league, the basketball league. You guys knew each other before? Come, I played in a few games. The E-League. And he hated me. He was like, I was cocky, and I just finished playing. So I was like, wait, who, James?

Well, everybody kind of hated. Okay. I mean, George Clooney threw the ball at my head. I mean, people didn't. No. That's the name of your memoir, Paul. George Clooney through the ball at my head. Yeah.

I actually like George quite a bit. I just remember that I was the cocky guy that was actually a real basketball. player. It was my dream to be in the NBA. I had some shots at it. I had some pro shots to play. And this guy called me from Hollywood and at the right time and pulled me away from that. So I was really, really, I was really good. You know, I had a really basketball on 15 years. So I mean, I'm a dad now. It's a completely different game. You play. It's getting to school on time morning. Yeah. You know, which is a chore, as joy will probably know. but no but i mean i don't know i mean i think that basketball was was my road in

and playing with james and playing with um brian robbins to get back to the question i think brian saw that i was super competitive and inside of me is that sort of like that that that michael jordan thing where nobody likes them but they all fucking want them on their team yeah and that's how i was as an athlete and it doesn't translate well to life well to sports because when you're acting you know it's it's about being open to receive and then being brave enough to give that vulnerable part of yourself that you keep secret to yourself and you're alone in your house and you're crying over shit that nobody will understand and that's going okay here's what I got you know are you going to take it if they don't take it

you know you're not going to have a good scene you know you're not going to have a good experience but if they take it's on let's let's let's fucking go there and yeah and that's for me that's where I get juiced when I'm acting yeah people to bring it you know you do direct the way a coach coaches team sports where it's like you need to show up for your teammates like I've heard you have that conversation before and like yelling from the sidelines God I never thought about until just now but So true. Yeah, you basketball coached us through all the seasons of one training out. And get your head in the game.

But what an amazing thing, too, because for you in this sort of parallel path to be a coach, but also to have had the beginning you had that you told us about, like, don't worry about the work, just get good. You're so good. You're such a good actor. You're such a good storyteller. so to have like one of the best actors and storytellers and scene partners you've ever worked with also be a team sport guy like no wonder every time you were directing us we were like this is the

best episode of the year the best it was always such a relief when we knew you were directing wasn't it well the scene that stands out for me the one scene from one tree hill i have on my reel is the scene that you directed of when brooke and peyton get into the physical altercation on the front line. On the front lawn. You directed that scene. That's the time that Sophia's skull got cracked. We accidentally headbutted, but the scene turned out. Great. That's the basketball coach in him. He's like, walk it off. Walk it off. It's good for me. Good. You guys, that looked really real. We were both on the floor going, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow. Face. But that scene, to me is my favorite scene of probably the whole series because we were doing real work and we were tapping into

all the insecurities we had, all of the things that were real. You were encouraging us to use the real things to tell a powerful story for our audience. You brought it because one is the most important thing is in anything, sports or acting or anything, you were prepared. You didn't show up going, what are we doing today? To me, that drives me nuts. I go, what do you mean what are we doing today like you have this fantastic like blueprint it's called a script what you're doing today if you read it it's really informative and you guys showed up and you knew your lines which is for me it's like that's just plain elbow grease and hard work and there's no there's in acting I don't care who you are because I mean look again anecdotally another story joy's heard a thousand times I love

them, tell them all. I was really close to what I think is one of the greatest improv actors of all time, Robert Downey Jr. Yeah. We spent a lot of time to study and preparing him for Chaplin. He was very, very dear. And we had a lot of time together, you know, in the world of preparing for screen tests, auditions, movies.

And, you know, he learned everybody's lines and his in the whole shift. He learned him backwards. And then he never said them. He knew that he developed the kids. character so well that when you got to the set, the character took over. So not that I think we needed to go that far in television, we don't have that kind of luxury to take 55 takes or 100 takes. We take three or four and we take the best one. But to get the best three or four, you've got to show up ready to go to work, man. No joke. You know, and it's not, it's not for the faint of heart

because you put your heart out there every day. It's this hard work. And people who want to get the first thing I say is, it's hard. Are you ready? Yeah. So that's the thing I'm very curious about, Because that, well, first, just asterisk, I'm going to say, super proud of us for being good students. Love that. Thanks, teacher. Thank you. And but my real, you know, sort of emotional question under the joke is I'm fascinated about that beginning. Because you're talking about the Entertainment League and this basketball, this real young competitive athlete in you who, as you speak about that version,

of you and your life at a whole. I'm like, well, you're clearly deeply emotionally untouched at this moment. And you have been for a long time. But, you know, in the beginning, you're saying that it was sort of something that could be viewed as a negative, a hyper-competitive streak in you that identified to our producer. That guy would be really good for Dan Scott. And then you're talking about how you have to show up and literally put your heart on the line, even when you're playing a bad guy, even when you're, you know, hand raised, even when you're playing, confident girl. You really have to be willing to kind of crack your chest open and see what comes out. And so how did you, in the beginning of our show, figure out how to play this guy?

Because Joy said it. Dan could have been so one-note. You could have been... Snidly whiplash, you know? You could have just been like a stereotypical bad guy. And you did a thing that really got us. And it gets us every week. Every week we watch the show and we're like, God damn it, he's good. How did you carry your whole heart and your capacity for vulnerability and your like hyper-competitive Olympic guy? How does that fit in one box? How do you do that? It's a sensational question, and I'm really grateful that you've thought to ask me that because it's, it's so important to me because of our fans who's they made this podcast like the number one podcast

because they're so loyal and they love you know you know they love you know they love you guys they love the show and they deserve these kinds of questions so thank you for that question that's the right way to honor the work that we've done is to ask those questions you know what I mean so I'm I'd love to humbly try to explain it in the way that I've always tried to explain this to people when when I get in that area it's just you know Dan was a narcissist but the the truth about narcissists is that they're broken they're not they play out their their biggest fear is to be called out or to be humiliated to be humiliate or shamed is like execution for them so for Dan he was so so proud and so

so, so put together an external level on this incredibly aesthetic value that he puts out there for the world to see. But he is broken, on the inside. I remember listening to your podcast to sort of prepare for this conversation. Who were we talking about, Paul? What were we saying? And just, and things fired in my heads when you're talking about, you're talking about Gerald McCraney. And Gerald McCraney, that scene, those scenes with him, although I was really, really sick. I prepared to go into that to show why I was broken in that episode. But I got the opportunity because Paul, you were perfect in that episode. You looked like a broken kid. And I know you were sweating because you were sick, but you used it. That moment when Deb,

what was going on? Somebody, Deb was saying something to you and you looked at her like, dude, stop it. Dad's looking. You were instantly a teenager again. A 14 year old boy. Boy. I don't remember what the conversation was, but I remember we all commented on that scene. We did. Exactly. That is, it is a, it's usually from parents. Narcism comes from narcissistic parents. And then they're, and what they do is they do all the, you know, the loathing and the self-hatred on this stuff. So in my mind, the way that I wanted to play down, the way they wanted to find that value. And by the way, and you can't have this conversation while giving credit to the writing staff because they are the ones that are giving, you know, the great opportunities for you to find these moments. And so I really always throw that out to the right stuff because they did just go. They understood Dan in a way that seemed there was an ease there, you know? And maybe that's because Dan was an adult and like having to remember what it's like to be a teenager is hard sometimes. But clearly someone understood Dan Scott on like a visceral level.

I'm not touching that. we'll let that one float up you go back to you go back to you I said what I said Oh my God nuance That's what makes characters interesting

And I will say Just to finish the you know that the point that I feel about that is that no no truly you know powerful and interesting

sort of I wouldn't call him a villain. Dan was in a villain. Dan's biggest secret, which I will reveal, is that he deeply loved both Lucas and Nathan, deeply, like so much that he pretended not to. My goal in every scene was to love them so much, but I have to be strong and don't show them.

That's the conflict in me in all those scenes. When did you decide that? Really early in season one, when I, when I wasn't sure how to play some scenes and how do I find depth, how do I find depth? How do I find a deeper value to this guy? I don't just want to play. When I went to the writers and I said, guys, I don't know. I mean, I feel like, you know, I should have, I would rather have been Keith. And we go, no, you don't want to be Keith. I'm like, yes. Keith's going to die. But the truth is, is they said, just trust us, trust us. But I wanted to be more than just a bad guy. And so the way that I thought would be interesting was, was to kind of go to that other value and go, what is a bad guy really seen as? The truth is they're really freedom fighters in other countries. We call terrorists and all these other ideas.

It's the opposite. So how do I play the opposite value and still be the bad guy? So I play deep devotion to my everything I did was for Nathan's future. I fought for his future. He doesn't know as good as I know, so I'll take care of it for him. And then in that way, I cross over into those boundaries. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that's relatable.

For a lot of parents who, you know, we, some, a lot of parents have the, the light switch goes on. You know where to set the boundary between yourself and your child. And then there are parents that don't know where that boundary line is. And they overstep consistently because of this broken belief that they know better. And they, they don't know how to just allow their child to have an independence. And, you know, you really, you really laid that out quite well. It's actually really interesting because I'm realizing that the reason, for me, me that when we all watch the show and we have these deep conversations while we're watching

episodes, not even when we're doing the podcast about Dan Scott, the image that came to mind when you were explaining that to me was a fist. And you made a fist out of love, but you still hit your kid. And that's what I think hurts us all when we watch him in these early years is it's like, God, you just can't, Dan Scott can't stop emotionally punching his kid. But the reason that for some reason, we as viewers so badly want him to redeem himself, we see something in him, is that you didn't play it as just a dad who was emotionally abusive to his kid. You actually turned something broken in him into, like, the most heartbreaking kind of a generational trauma. where you're like, oh, no, he's doing the exact wrong thing.

But that's why we see something else in him because it's motivated by something tender and to be able to hold that kind of complexity for a character. For how many years? Wow. Yeah. What did it do to your life to play this bad guy? Well, I mean...

Like, I remember going into the Dixie grill in Wilmington to get like sloppy eggs and it was back when you could like still smoke inside and drinking coffee and like they had like a little like you know display case at the front of the store and they were selling Dan Scott mugs there because it you were the iconic you know guy that you love to hate um didn't you live right above them at that point too I loved that apartment yeah that was a good apartment ball The closer to the wine I could be, you know. Perfect.

How soon after the show launched, did you start feeling the feedback of playing Dan Scott? You know, this was obviously, again, before a lot of the social media was taking in, but there were some of those forums in one that you could read about it, and I tried not to. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, so when did people start picking on you? I'm glad social media didn't exist. Well, you guys know.

I mean, I had that one experience in New York. I had the girl on first on an airplane move, asked the stewardess to move her because she was sitting across from me and she was scared. And I was like, you know, no, no, I'm just a Canadian guy. It often scares me. Sometimes that people do not have a separate. generation channel.

Yeah. Yeah. Blingada, or reprimandala Blangana. Yeah. We really get that with our show in a way that I haven't seen

for a lot of other people. Because we blurred the line between fact and fiction. Numerous times, you know? Like, Haley went out on tour, Joy went out on tour. We did the sun-kissed concerts. We did the sun-kissed concerts.

You know, like, we blurred that line so much that I understand why it's confusing for people. We've been talking this morning about how, you know, we have been critical of our own characters and also critical of Lucas's character. In recent episodes.

Yeah, because what was normal for boy behavior in 2003, you know, 18 years later is not acceptable behavior. You don't flirt with two girls at the same time. You don't gaslight girls. Like, and people are really upset because they're like, how could you betray Lucas? And I think Dan exemplifies this in a really tangible way, because you can have. have someone who is doing something inappropriate, and it doesn't make them a terrible person. It doesn't make them beyond redemption.

Peyton and Lucas are still endgame. But if they started off two perfect people falling in love and perfectly being together for six years, that would be a boring show. It's a boring story. And life is messy, and that's part of just learning how to live your life and grow up. Are we not allowed to be messy people? I'm super fucking messy all the time. Is everyone supposed to be perfect all the time?

I'm not on board with that. And I think this idea of perfectionism is really toxic. And I think especially for us as women who've been very open about things we've been through, when we see bad behavior against women modeled, it's incredibly important to talk about it. And duh, the whole point is that we're doing this episode by episode. So if, by the way, look at how critical I've been of Brooke. Yeah, if you were terrible at that party. Good God, the worst.

I want to be able to say that is not acceptable behavior and then look where she gets to go and we know what's coming for Lucas he is to your point two timing not just two girls best friends it's not okay at the stage we're at in the podcast

and the series rewatch but I think what's cool is that and I think why our show has resonated with people is that all of the people even for their failings even for when they come up short that character, my character, our characters, they learn, they grow,

they become better versions of themselves. And my hope is that if we hold them accountable, ourselves accountable, we can also encourage people to say, hey, you're so much more than the worst thing you ever did. Maybe you were in a bad stage of your life,

but look where you could go. You can get your happy drive off into the sunset with your hot wife and your cute. Like, go after that. Go and get it. Well, in this episode, is the hero because it's the episode where there's the car crash where Keith has been drinking.

Chad's character is in a lot of trouble with his health. And Dan is the one that steps up and says, I'm your dad and I'm going to sign off on this surgery. And it is the first time we see Karen look at Dan's character, perhaps the way she looked at him in high school. In high school. I just have to say, I know we're talking about this episode, but Paul.

In that scene in the last episode where you look at the doctors and you say, do it, I'm his father. The three of us went, I am your father. Literally. But the three of us all went on Zoom all at the same time. We gasped. It was so powerful after his behavior. Yeah. And to.

That plays into the conversation about the real motivation behind the character, which is love, you know, which helps bring about the redemption. end of the series. Yeah. So to hear you say that now, after we just watched that scene, I, we were so emotionally touched by it, but now I feel like I understand it's in a way that I, I didn't before. That's beautiful. You mentioned something about what you said earlier yourself about, about this idea of like this sort of like the jumping back and forth with, like, with, you know, you talked about

Lucas is dating two girls and at the end of the episode, there's forgiveness for everybody. You know, and I think the one thing, and this is sort of really relevant in my life now, but this idea of forgiveness, forgiveness is so undervalued nowadays, and it's so undervalued in artistry, it's so undervalue in taking chances in your life. Yes. Mistakes. We're going to say dumb jokes. We're going to unintentionally hurt people's feelings or do bad things.

but if we truly are looking to to sort of move forward and evolve towards a sort of more perfect being and towards a more perfect being, I think this forgiveness factor is completely the only way to get that. Absolutely. You can't have a functional society without forgiveness. And you can't have a functioning society without communication. Because look, we all, the four of us, we know each other well enough. I know when any of you is keeping a secret

or having a rough day or you need a hug but you look real professional up on stage and a sunkiss event. Sophia FaceTime me the other day and she's like, you seemed real fine on that Zoom, Hillary. What's going on?

And I was like, oh, it's messy. And I think we can forget that not everyone out in the world speaks the same language from the same emotional information that we do. And we've been talking a lot, the three of us, about how we wish we'd had the tools

when we were 21, to ask each other, hey, I feel like you feel this way about me. Is that true? Or, hey, I heard a thing. Was that real? You know, if we could have just asked. And I want to be very clear, there's a line between clearly abhorrent

and inappropriate and, you know, violent and biased behavior and just being messy but also like where people come from culturally senses of humor senses of humor that come from the world of athletics versus from theater schools they're very different and being able to communicate and say that felt weird what you mean just let everybody

grow together because someone then might say oh oh well my friends and I used to make this joke all the time and then the person in the room who's new could go, yeah, I had someone make fun of me for that once, and you go, oh, God, like tell me more. And then you bond. That's the point right there is that when someone's intent is to grow and learn, they're going to fumble along the way to grow and learn. And they're going to fail in order to learn. So what they go, hey, I feel like I might have messed up right there. Gosh, I hope you understand. I didn't mean that. And then go, thank you for saying that.

Yeah. Good with me. And that's how I am with you. You are. You are. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional.

It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis. who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a massacist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare, and frankly, bullshit.

Kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yeah, that's right. Lock her up.

Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi. on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Paul, can I tell a story? Sure. This is a story about you, and it is a thing that I have, like, carried deep in my heart. I don't even know if we've talked about this, you guys.

There was a day that you and I, and I genuinely, I'm going to be really honest, I don't remember if we were in New York for press, or if we were just on the street in Wilmington, but we would go out a lot. And it was daytime. I remember because I was shocked by the behavior in the light of day.

And you and I were walking down the street and your airplane story made me think of this. A lady passed us and went, you, she gasped and we both looked. And it was like something took over her body. And I'll never forget. She had one of those like, you know, Kate Spade bags with the straps.

And she went, and as she was scoffing at you, she pulled her bag off her shoulder. and it was a bag with a zip top so she could swing it. And she started swinging her bag and hitting you over and over. And she literally went, you are such a bad dad. Was it ever heard? No. She was hitting him in the arm with this bag.

Yeah. And Paul, I'll never forget because this was the clarity of many things for me with you, your generosity of spirit, your understanding. of expectation and your deep awareness from having been an athlete of what your size conveys to people you you you looked so shocked i saw the hurt on your face and then as she kept smacking you i watched you have a thought take a deep breath stand up a little taller and you literally you gave this woman who watched our show what she wanted because she thought of you as dan scott and you made a choice

and you leaned in and you said, yeah, I am a bad dad and you winked at her and she all of a sudden the spell was broken and she started laughing

and then she patted you on the forearm and said oh you're just so good and then she walked away and you guys it was the wildest thing because I watched a person assault our friend

think it was okay because he was a big a physically big man and and and then you I saw how much it hurt you and how quickly you decided to be kind to her instead of to be honest about how you felt and you and you made it into this moment and I bet that woman that told that story for 18 years. All her friends. Oh, he's so sexy. Oh, you know what he said to me. He said, oh, I am a bad dad baby like I'm, you know, and I've never have forgotten it. And it made me always see you and the way that you could see what people needed and give it to them, whether it was a hug or like you put on the Dan Scott hat.

You always have been willing to give people the thing that you can see they're aiming for. And it is to me a signal of such intuition and empathy. And I think it's very rare. And I don't think it's a thing people know about the hot dad from TV who's real good at basketball. You bad, you bad, daddy. I want to talk about you as a bad husband because we've had Barbara on the show. And in the earlier episodes, your chemistry together is really fun to watch. And we all know it's going to go bad. But then your chemistry with Moira was on display in this episode.

And so had you worked with either of them before? Did you know the women? I auditioned the women, potential women, to be Dan's wife, to be the Debs. And there was no competition for her. When she walked into the room, it was her. Wow. She was it. I mean, you could just tell, I mean, as she walked in the room and we just all went, do we need to read?

Perfect. she was and she have you ever met somebody that was so easy to be around on the set like just a joy to be on the set? Yeah, Barbara. Yeah. We've met that person.

It's Barbara. Yeah. I mean, she was literally one of the easiest people to show up with and know that she's like a real pro. Yeah. Always knew her lines. Always always kind of could figure out with the blocking. It was never the problem.

Right. She's a dame. She's a dame A long time ago on a movie And Saudi would come Every day She would never go to her trailer She would sit on the set in her chair

She did this needle point She was just there Yeah With her boom She was amazing And Deb reminded me a lot Of that kind of a You know that sort of like

Really took the job seriously But didn't take themselves too seriously The first person with with moira i saw moira in the late 80s on a dance floor in a nightclub in hollywood i love that everything where were you what was she wearing i just finished watching um uh the what's the hockey movie the cutting edge to pick topic we used to say it behind her back all the time we'd be like can we tell her can we tell her can we say to or don't say it it'll be cool don't say topic don't say

Well, I had the addition for that for that D.B. Sweeney rule a couple times. I didn't get it. And I saw her on a dance for and my jaw dropped. I was like, that person's a movie star. She's got it. You know, she has that thing. And then she was in Downey's movie Chaplin. Oh, yeah. That's right. And I really wanted to go to the set and see that, but they were shooting in London. And she, so I always wanted to work with her. And she just brings a real set. savvy intellectualism about her. Like she always, you see her thinking on camera, which I love. Yes.

Editing room. And you have an actress who is thinking. And you're going, they're thinking, I got to cut to this person. And so, they're looking at them all the time because it's so interesting. So it's a way to steal screen time. She also very rarely changed lines, Moira. I'm noticing that as we watch back, which there's a lot of things where I'm like, man, if I had to say that dialogue, I definitely would have put up a little stink.

I would have been like, I'm not saying that. say it this way blah blah blah which you know in some on some characters in some in some just too much champagne guys champagne with some characters that works it works they want you to bring your own flavor of flavor to the job but when i watch her she has made all of that dialogue work without changing it and it's pretty great it's inspiring it is she she just has such a grace yeah yeah big time and paul i know we said it but it really bears repeating that at the end of this episode when karen walks into the dealership to think dan we all were like oh god look at them look at them looking at each other look at them looking at each other it was some sexual tension there for sure

it was fire like light hot heat and i was like i need to know so much more about dan and karen Yeah. I have a question for you. When you were in high school, who was your type, Paul? Was it Brooke, Haley, or Peyton? What was your, what was your flavor? So I was a late bloomer. I was, I didn't even until after high school. Good for you. Oh, good for you. Same, buddy, same. Yeah. Yeah. I was, I know this is going to sound a little weird, but I wasn't sure what my life was going to be. and a part of me thought I might want to become a priest. Wait, what? You guys didn't know this? Of course I knew this.

Oh, my God. No, I didn't know. And I was quite serious about where my heart was about what I wanted. But then I found out that I would not be able to have a fan of. And that was a non-starter for me. I want to be a doubt. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, obviously, my.

My faith has changed a lot over my lifetime and my years, my experiences. And, and, but, but, you know, the truth is, is I just wasn't sure I wanted to give all of that to a human being because at all my dad was giving it to something greater, I thought. Yeah. What I was attracted to was, I was attracted to, I'm an odd dude. I'm really weird. Nobody knows better than joy. You? My counselor, the very last 20 years.

on my dating escapades, but I pick very strange. And the truth is, here's a real big reveal. In the last couple of years, I've realized that, you know, through my conditioning as a very, very, you know, which brings us back to the Dan character a little bit, is that, you know, I'm the child of a very, very violent man. My father was a very violent man. It was any ex-a-old star, and he was a bad drinker,

and he was a mean drunk, and he was very, very violent. And he wasn't just violent to me. He was violent to my sister, my mom, all of us. He found his God and quit drinking. And for the last 25, 30 years of his life, he never had a drop of alcohol. But when I was young growing up until I was like 10, 12, 14 years old, it was coming home and hiding in the closet, not knowing when he pulled in front of who he's going to beat up that night.

So it was, so I have inside of me this trauma bond with love. So my mom, my dad, I wasn't protected by my mom from. I'm a raging drunk and I wasn't predicted by my dad by, you know, a mom who was sort of asleep at the wheel letting it happen, who should have taken us away, you know, and protected us. Yeah. So my relationships with the other sex has been very about not having trust. I don't trust you're going to take care of me because she didn't. Yeah.

Years of my life have I discovered why I haven't been a good partner because I can't blame the other people. I have to blame myself when I'm not a good partner because either I chose poor. earlier right where I wasn't prepared to be wholly healed from that. So my choices have not been that good. When I was a young boy, I was always attracted to people that I thought were odd and quirky and mousy and nebish and school bookish.

Safe. Yeah, I wasn't attracted to people that would challenge me because I didn't know how I would react because challenging meant fighting, not healthy. Oh, yeah. Yeah, wow. makes so much sense. So now you guys out there all know why we can sit with Paul Johansson for hours on end with wine and great food or just on a parked bench and you just never get tired of talking with him. He's the best. We love you so much. Paul, you, yeah, you're so open and it

gives us permission to be open and, you know, it has set a really good example for us in what was oftentimes a toxic environment. You were a person that we could look to and be like, well, Paul's still standing. Like, we'll just do it his way. And I think something really incredible, and I would imagine for the folks who are, you know, listening along with us having this conversation, that first of all, your generosity and being willing to share your story, both your personal story, and also how you chose to inform the on-screen character, who I would imagine, was very informed by the way you grew up,

you played a character who, I bet on, you know, some silly, you know, dot-com list would be listed as like, you know, a toxic villain from TV. And yet you are sitting here being the actual living proof of how a person can undo a generational inheritance of toxic masculinity. can examine a really dangerous environment that they were raised in and say, oh, I have been drawn to a hectic, frenetic energy. I'm not going to do that. I want to be a dad.

I want to change my life. I want to heal the child in me so that I can be a good parent to the child I'm going to have. Which you are? You are such a. God damn it. Oh, Paul. you are such a good dad yeah and paul you you were that for us like you were our safe space and i know that people used your athletic body and strong jaw which is so handsome god damn it that strong jaw

but they used it as an excuse to sometimes hit you with purses and and project all of that dan scott bullshit onto you but you were literally at times a human shield for us. You stepped in and you got in the way and you protected us and emotionally you, I mean it, you were always the North Star and to know

the friend that you are to us and the father that you are to your son and the man that you were as a leader, not only as an actor but a director on our set you made everybody laugh, you charmed the goddamn grins off everybody's faces. My parents thought I was going to run away

with Paul. They all were like, what's happening but you you did it carrying this legacy and you've done the work like gentlemen take notes get it together ladies line up we love you probably thank you so much for coming and being a part of this thank you for letting me be a part of this you guys what episode do you want to come back come back all the time like which episode oh my god should it be the reverse of like three men and a baby and it's just the three of us in ball forever are you ready you guys have so much going on right now it's every one of you is so busy i mean it's unbelievable what's happening with you guys you're like this incredible like power it's we keep joking that we're like captain planet we got

back together we put our rings together what episode do you want to come back for shoot your shot what's your favorite you have to look i mean i watched this episode and it was so impressed with, you know, what I thought was they laid the groundwork for a really good, like a really good yarn. Like there's great stuff in this episode. There was a scene in there where James comes and talks to a comatose chad. Yes. Wasn't that so good on you, man? Like, good for you, brother. It was beautiful. You know, James, you know, is a very strong, you know, human being and he and he brings stoicism to it and, you know, and Deb. And I love the Karen and Deb scene where they talk, you know, and really share for a moment.

And it sort of builds this whole, you know, I love that they spent a lot of some more time in the early seasons with some of the older actors, you know. I wish they kept doing that. You all were expensive, Paul. That's what happened. I don't know what happened. But I don't, I mean, I'm glad everything has to evolve.

It is what it is to tell it isn't anymore. And even Barry was lovely when he came in. Oh, wasn't he so good? Well, think about, think about what episode you would want to come back for. Let us know. Before we let you know, we have to spin a wheel. And this wheel is most likely, too. These are our superlatives.

Oh, yes. So we've got a whole collection of possible questions here. We decided to just own the high school yearbook. You know what I mean? Okay. Most likely to be late to their own wedding. Oh, geez. This could be character or an actor, you know, if anyone from the show, a character or an actor.

Who would be late to their own wedding? I mean. I was going to say Dan Scott. A quick story. I was directing the episode in the Woodhouse. Remember where we're all out in the... Oh, the cabin. Yes.

Was it Rachel's parents' cabin? Yes. Oh, I loved that place. We were there and we were getting ready to shoot the scene and then everybody was in it. So it was like, it was like... It was a nightmare. Yeah.

It was brutal. And we're about ready to shoot. And the last two people waiting for our joy and Sophia. So we're waiting and we're waiting And we go, and finally, I can't remember What was the first AD's name? Did they take bets? Was it Rick or was it Chad?

I think it was Chad. Chad Graves, our first AD, yeah. Should we take bets on who's going to be here first? I called it. He's out to secretly follow you as you left your team. And we had announcements on this set. We were all sitting out. Oh, my God.

I'm so mortified. And we were listening to go, okay, Sophia's out of her trailer. She's walking. Oh, she's got a phone call. And everyone goes, I was like, why was I late? Was I walking Annie?

What was I doing? So half the people were going to be voting for Joy to be late, have a point for you to be late. So we're having a competition. So then Joy's not away. She's coming out. She turned towards a craft table. And then Sophia starts to walk again.

She's got another call. And then Joy, Joy, forgot something of the craft tables. She's going back for it. And by the way, you know what I bet? I bet you and I are watching going, well, clearly nobody's on set because she's over there. Well, she's over there. And we're like, well, I'm just going to take my sweet-ass time. That's horrifying.

Oh, God, I'm so sorry. Who won? Yeah, who did? Do you remember who got to set first? Joy was laughed. Food wins over everything. I love it. I would forget to pick my kid up from school if it meant food.

Oh, my God. Not true. I think when you guys got to the set of one clapped and you were like, what's, what? That I remember. I remember the whole crew like bursting out into applause and like the confused look on your face is like, what's going on?

Oh my God. The only reason I was on set is because I was kissing a crew member. Like, I was always on set. I like that about you. I do remember though there was always that thing because there were so many of us all the time where somebody would be, because they always tell you they're ready for you

before they are. That's a lie. So they'd be like, we're ready for you and then you go to set and sit around for 20 minutes. I'm like, I could have had a snack. So then we started. doing this thing. We stopped at the crafty table. Honestly, you're not wrong. But we started doing this thing, which in hindsight, I realized

was probably pretty terrible, where you'd look around and see which of your co-workers was also dawdling and be like, well, clearly they're not actually ready for us because look at us all out here. Yeah, we're all just on the lawn. And playing with our dogs. Like, oh, God. Well, Joy, to phone calls and peanut butter. Yeah, God bless. God bless. Paul, you are a prince. I am glad that our listening audience knows. the real you underneath the dance god at all if you see paul in real life hug him tell him how wonderful he is and if you hit paul in real life i'll hit you back i didn't then but i'm ready now i love you guys i love you we love you too we love you i'll see you for dinner on friday night

lunch bye oh ladies and gentlemen you got to get experience a real treat that was um just a small into many, many a night that we shared with Paul Johanssen. Like, five-hour dinners. Oh, yeah. Six-hour dinners. Yeah, amazing. Every time. So I guess next week we'll talk a little bit more about this past episode that we

didn't really dive too much into. It's worth it to me. You guys, Lucas was on a coma the whole time. Yeah, what we were talking about. Oh, wait. You know what I could do? I took notes while we watched. Let's do rapid fire.

Yeah. We're going to do rapid fire. We're going to do rapid fire. Guys, so this is how we do this podcast. We take notes of what we saw. So here's my notes, guys. I'm setting one minute time. Yeah, go.

Okay. Did Uncle Keith ever go to rehab? Oh my God, there were answering machines. Yeah. Haley was the queen of boundaries. Thank you so much. Brooke showing up in tears and introducing herself to Karen. Oh, baby, that was so sad.

Enjoy burst out laughing and we realized it was a hilarious moment in the tragedy of it all. Brooke is such a good girlfriend. It really is. The pause, were you drinking before you drove Lucas? That was so indebt. Wait, Deb with the picnic basket. Oh, Deb with the hospital. hospital hilarious. That was beautiful. And realizing that Keith in that blink of an eye knew his whole

future ended. Payton's saying, I'll wait forever if I have to. Just six seasons, girl. Just six years. End game is coming. It was always in the script. Also, Lucas talked to his mom about Peyton, but not Brooke. And then Karen's, Karen says best friends can forgive each other anything. I needed to hear that. How sweet it was that the boys were waiting for news of Lucas at the River Court. It was like a little gathering. And what about the hat? Another beanie with a flower. Another classic Haley hat.

Oh, Lord. The sweet moment about love on the rooftop. It makes me think about years later the idea of context. What does that mean? Burke gives a speech at Nathan and Haley's wedding about like love is not love that something about changing in context. I don't know. It made me think about that and like, oh, there was always such a love there.

The two of you sharing the moment basically saying like we know what it is to love Lucas, but in different contexts. Different ways. The timer's going off. But I have to say one last thing. Okay, okay. What does Deb need forgiveness for? What is it?

Right. We have so, oh, and the Cheryl Crow song montage at the end. Good God. Killed me. Cheryl Crow is perfect. Guys, we love you. We love you. Thank you.

And every time Paul comes, we probably won't talk about the episode. And we're guessing that these will be our most popular episodes of the show. So in advance, you're welcome. Ha-z-a. Hey. Zah. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review.

You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's O-T-H. Or email us at Dramaquins at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drammer girl. Chearing for the right team. Drama queens.

There's more. Girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Drama, drama queens, drama queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop.

That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other. native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.