Drama Queens - Drama King w/Paul Johansson • EP222

Episode Date: May 16, 2022

Joy is joined by her BFF, Paul Johansson aka Dan Scott, and together they are taking over the show! This is Part 1 of the Season 2 Finale and surprise, surprise… Peyton cries. A lot. But Paul has a realization about Peyton and Jake that he never understood until this moment. Discover the shocking reason why Paul loves watching Dan this many years later!! Then, join in as he and Joy discuss the many facets of being an artist, a parent, a romantic partner and much more. Bonus: Hollywood stories from Paul’s lengthy career including a great moment on set with Sally Field!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama, girl, cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Hey, sports fans. We are back for another edition of Drama Queens. And this one, we are talking about episode 22 in season two, the tide that left and never came back. Air date May 24th, 2005. Here's what happens in this episode. Hillary cries a lot. Chad does a really nice job of being very sincere. And Brian Greenberg is a full teen heartthrob. But really, it's, um,

part one of season two finale. And we have Jimmy Eatworld. Lucas and Brooke head to New York for an overnight stay with Haley. Peyton and Jake's relationship hits another bump in the road because of Nikki and Dan is still out to destroy Karen. He's ruining her relationship with Andy. And meanwhile, Andy's trying to find out what Dan is hiding in his office. Bum bum bum. And Nathan's got a really big decision to make about High Flyers and his family. If you're wondering why it sounds a little quiet here, it's because I am the only drama queen. I'm the only one in the studio. today. But never fear. We have an awesome, awesome guests today. One of my dearest, dearest friends, who you may recognize, maybe, you might recognize him. He was raised in Colona, British Columbia,

as the son of an ice hockey player, but he started his acting career on a soap opera called Santa Barbara. And then he did Beverly Hills 902.1. And then he did soap dish. This guy was even in the notebook. Ladies and gentlemen, a drama king in his own right. My dear friend Paul Johansson, hello, Paul. Hi. He's a drama king. That's just because we share our lives partly. We know our dramas. Drama king and queen for sure. Oh my goodness. Wait, what did it feel like to watch this episode back? I mean, how long has it been since you've watched an episode except for the one? Did you watch one before you did our live episode? I have to admit I didn't watch it. Oh, I watched part of it. No, I did. I watched part of it. Yeah, you saw some of it because we discussed it. Um, but to really sit and just

take it all in after 2011. Yeah, the season finale. Right. Yeah. The series finale. Yeah. It's been, it's been a long time. How'd that feel? You know, actually, um, there's a lot, you know, the world has turned TV, right? All the great filmmakers are making TV shows now. Yeah. All the big actors are big stars. We're like, oh, they'll never do TV. They're all TV. Yeah, it's all changed it's a huge different world out there and so but to go and see the the simpleness and the sweetness and we were talking about it during the pot the episode we were watching together there was something really charming and and the way that our creators made music the backbone of our show yeah gave it a gave it a kind of like a poetry about it don't you think I am I totally think so

I felt like they introduced me to a lot of bands that I didn't know about. I guess because I was never really into the modern, trendy music scene. I was always such like an old hippie with music and listening to Carol King in my room and Billy Joel. So it was really fun to be able to hear what all the new bands were and be introduced to all this new talent. And clearly, Jimmy Eat World at the time was a really big deal and got bigger. So that was really fun. Did our show have something to do with a little bit of a bump in their career? I think it did.

I mean, I don't, I would love to ask them, but it had to have. I mean, the show was huge at the time. Season two was when it really started to lift off, which is crazy because we've been saying this whole time that it was such a boring season. Like, or just not boring, but kind of a terrible season. It was just so over the top and so many things that we didn't love. But, yeah, no, I. You know, it reminds me when you mentioned Santa Barbara, like, nobody's done.

Back in the day, he was doing soap operas. The producer used to walk through the set before everything saying going, remember, tension, everybody, tension. Like, they wanted conflict, conflict. Every scene has to have conflict. And so I was watching this episode, I was like going, this is kind of the formula for keeping people interested. Yeah. Conflict, conflict. And this episode is rife with conflict.

It's non-stop. I mean, it is a finale, so I think that's fair now. I wouldn't have said this 10 years ago when I watched, if I watched this episode, which I think I did. But my favorite storyline in this episode, I really liked Jake and Hillary story. I thought there was something. I mean, she was literally sobbing in every scene. Every scene. I wish she was here right now because she would have so many fun things to say about that.

But, you know, he's got, you know, now that I'm a statement. single dad. Yeah. And I know, and you're, you know, we both know what it's like to raise, you know, a little one in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, of having, you know, family cord and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. You know, and you see, you know, his, you know, I just see a real kind of honor about the way that he approached it. Mm. Do you what I mean? Like, he's fighting hard, but he's, but he's, but he's, he's, he's, he's, he's still got this great. And I love his love for his daughter. It's more than his love for even Peyton, which kind of be a great parent.

You kind of love with your kids more than your partner. I don't know. You know what? I actually have, I've heard different sides on that. I'm very curious about that. Well, that's something that actually is worth talking about because as a parent, I mean, I'm a single mom, so I don't, I can't speak from experience on this. But it does seem to me that in order to give your child the stability that a child needs,

that making your partner the most important person in the family to you and then the children come second kind of eliminates an element of codependence with your child, that the child knows their place in the structure of the family and their place in the world rather than feeling like they might be above the other parent. That is a beautiful interpretation. I've never heard of put that way before, but I really need to sit with that and ponder that. I love it. What I would submit to you would be one is that I think they may be different loves. Yeah. And the second part would be that I've never experienced that I've come first before anything. I usually know my career comes first. You know, this is my

favorite car. You're never driving it. You know, most things I'm all right. Yeah. No, I don't think I've ever, I've never experienced that either. Not in my childhood. You can't have been first ever, ever, ever in someone's life. Like you've never been, you are my priority. I'm going to make sure that this is the most important thing to me. And you've never been made to feel that way? I don't.

I think I have a couple with like a, maybe a, I can think of maybe one or maybe two boyfriends that I felt that way with. But it always came with baggage of like there was actually a neediness underneath it where by them making me the priority, it felt like they were... That was my follow-up question. Yeah, it was more about them than it... Right, it was more about them than it was about me. So I think, no, I don't think I...

You see why it's hard for us as men to know I'm going to make you first. Well, if I make her first, she won't respect me. You know what I mean? So, okay, I'm going to pretend... She is first, but I'm like to let her know that. I'm going to act like, you know, not going to go with the guys tonight, you know? Right? We'll celebrate with all, you know, we'll do it.

I don't know if it's that it's that I wouldn't respect it or don't respect it. I think it's just that I don't want there to be any guile about it. I don't want there to be any like you're trying to get something out of it by being the knight in shining armor. Like it's the quiet honor that you actually talk about a lot, Paul, in your life and the way that you function in your life with your relationships and with your son and with your work. And there's an internal honor code that. And that I think is what I'm looking for in the context of what we're talking about, where it's not just, hey, look at me. I'm the Night in Shining Armor. Okay, now give me something for it. It's just like a genuine offering of you're my priority. And I don't need you to give me anything back because then I will give above and beyond. But if I sense that there's guile, it freaks me out and I kind of back off. let me ask you a question about that when you feel you're about to step over that line of that code ever because I know you and I have a lot of similarities with it yeah it's almost like an alarm is ringing inside of you're going you're not this isn't who you are this isn't you but even if it's easy and you test that code sometimes even if it's what say again even if it's it's an easy step over the line like something you know that you like I don't this is a terrible example but like taking a job. just for the money when you know that it's like something you shouldn't be doing because your

hearts are going to be in it. Yeah. I know a lot of people may not, may not be able to understand that, but from an artist's point of view, that it's almost like selling your soul. Right. And it's painful. But we've all kind of gone there. Yeah.

And what you do is you try not to be too hard on yourself. Yeah. And say, you know, I'm, you know, it's like I've got to be able to forgive myself for that moment because there's a bigger picture here. If I can, if I can really live the good life that I want to live and, and most of all, wake up and look in the mirror and not be disappointed, then everything else will be okay. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Yeah. There has to be that internal honor code. And as artists, I think we, as actors, particularly, I guess, we become professional bullshit detectors in a lot of ways. And that, you know, bleeds into our relationships because I know I do. My alarms all go crazy. And destroys them, too. Yeah.

If I feel like somebody's not being real with me and then I can just pick and pick and pick. But bringing it back to the kids, which is that, you know, I have never been, I haven't been in a relationship long enough with my, a romantic relationship long enough while I've had my daughter to be able to say that this theory works. But in theory, it does seem to make sense to me. And I appreciate what Jake does here. If there was a, if there was a scale, you say, like, here's the, here's the points that I need to be in a relationship, like, You have to be attracted to the other person. Of course.

You have to respect them. Yes. And you have to have similar long-term goals. Yeah, values and long-term goals, I guess, yeah. Is there anything else I'm missing on that? No, I think that's it. Values is a huge one. And then, yeah, long-term goals.

Well, long-term goals changed. I mean, the long-term goals I think I had when I was 20 are very different from what I have now. See, for me, it was only, I just had to be attracted. Really, that was the cutoff. How many years did you live like that? As a handsome acting bachelor, like party man out there, you had access to everything. I mean, everything at your feet, at your disposal.

How long did you live your life that way before you started to go, okay, I need a shift now? My dating life is an HBO special. It is. It is a complicated, long, I mean, I dated a girl that we were followed by the CIA one time. I dated a girl. Yeah. I dated a girl who was involved in a very big political scandal back in like the late 19. Shit.

1980s. And, you know, he's quite a famous person. And then, you know, you know who else I've dated. It's been a very interesting, but you know, I didn't, I came from a small town. You said at the beginning of the thing from Colonna, British Columbia. Yeah. Beautiful little Tawasier Lake Town in Canada, which, and, you know, and like you, you can New Jersey and now we you meet all these people that everyone has this idea what they are

nobody nobody is like what they perceive to be in their in the public persona everybody's way more complicated nuance and different yeah i totally agree with that it's so hard to just take one glance or know a character or no you know you know read some interviews or whatever see some interviews and feel like you really have a whole rounded picture of a person When Jake was on his motorcycle, are you like, what did you say? He's such a teen heartthrob. So there you go. See the image of a young, handsome, honorable, single man fighting for your hairways.

I know. Thanks. I'm having fun with my hair. On the motorist. He's got the James Dean look over his shoulders. He's not looking right at you. He's got to look over his shoulder a little bit. It's got everything going on.

And you go, and I guess I could hear on the other side, you sweat. I can hear you. And I was like going, yeah, okay. I get it. There's the imagery. But that sort of plays into our thing. It's like, this is the presentation. But we know he's goofy and lovable and intelligent and funny and fun. And like, he's not this like deep and tortured. He's, you know what I mean? So we get these fragments. You get glimpses. Glimpses. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name.

name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball.

Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I loved the glimpses we got of him and Hillary, I agree. They did a really nice job and they had a great storyline. And I also really liked chat in this episode a lot. I thought he was really sincere. You know, it's some of the most profound being their moments. Yeah. I thought so too. I thought he didn't stretch. He wasn't pushing hard. It was very natural. I agree with you. I think he was very good in this episode. Yeah, really sincere and just kind of the thread between all this all the storyline. Although I question the moment when he sits. and judges Haley for playing around. She wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't sexual in context with you and, and, and, Oh, yeah, but come on. He hasn't seen her in ages, like the first time he shows up to see her and she's, like,

on a couch, you know, mess, wrestling with this guy. I don't know. I get that he was annoyed. And then he's, he's passing judgment. I was, like, going, like, come on, you know. Yeah, one of the, that's real, too. That's real. It is.

And one of the things about going back and watching this show. So it's been fun to realize where we are now in our maturity and our understanding of the gray areas of life and how nothing is exactly what it seems. And, you know, there's just so many facets to a person and their experiences. And when you're in high school or when you're in your early 20s, like we were when we were filming it, and, you know, then you have so much judgment. And the world seems much more black and white. And I think you and I see that with our kids, too, because I know Maria's like that. The things are very black and white and trying to explain, well, there's gray areas here. I mean, I know, Quinn, you're laughing.

Go ahead. Especially. Atheist, communist. I'm this way, dad. I'm like, yeah, tell me in five years what you are, you know. It's all going to think. It's funny. I was thinking about what you're saying about the, what we, our perception of people, too,

is like, when I was in high school, I knew what my future wife was going to be. She was going to be speak French and where Chanel all the time. And she was going to be, you know, speak nine languages and, you know, have a PhD and philosophy and she's going to love me. And we're going to be together for everyone. Oh, my God. That's such a high bar. Right.

And then, you know, in my 40s and 50s, she has to have a pulse. It's like literally, it's like, I'm going to narrow it down way small. Right. Oh, God. I know. I was, I'm looking at my notes. here because there was so, there was so much drama in this episode. I have lots of notes too.

Oh, you do? I thought about Dan for a second. Yeah. Let's talk about Dan because what the hell was that with Karen? Oh my God. You're going to the kiss right away. Okay, well, we can build up to it. Go ahead.

Well, I just thought that, you know, I just see, okay, first off, there was something up early on with you, right? We had a little thing there, right? Was that, it was, that was a flashback when you brought the annulment paper. That's right. Okay. That sets up this finale. Definitely. Right. And that's the papers that you gave Lucas. Right. Or copies of to give it to him. Yeah, because you, I think you forged Nathan's signature or something, but you gave me the paperwork and told me that Nathan had signed it. And so I believed you. How many times do people have to be proven wrong by believing Dan and finding out that he's just lying? what's that old adage again it's like when people show you who they are believe them yeah but you know i got to be honest with you um even though i'm the actor playing the part um i really enjoyed dan i enjoyed when he came on i went okay something's going to happen

that's a nice feeling you know what i mean yeah is that one of your favorite things about playing dan or playing a character that is uh so um instigating of things or i don't know help me with my vocabulary because this is a you're so like this is why you and our friends your instincts as an artist are always so like like perfect it's like i love talking because it's your name with us we know i know that you cut to stuff when karen comes in and she's mad she's like spitting fire man you know she's Satan's mistress at the moment and she comes in if you the first cut to me sitting in the chair I see her in my eyes and immediately I start to go

got her because I can affect somebody and then my character is smiling because he knows I got her why would he do anything unless he got a reaction everything is for a reaction and that was the fun part of playing down was I get to make people react yes so fun yes that's what that's the fun about any anyone will tell you playing a villain is fun because you get to get a reaction out of people everything that you do is very forward movement and it's it's got a lot of energy behind it

it's really fun but then you don't play you don't you don't you don't want to the real interesting and nuance to that which makes it really interesting is once you've got them is you play it opposite their energy when they come in the room yes she's moving and moving moving and I'm very still. Yeah. And she's moving moving and I'm very still. It's like you want and make them rage against it. Oh, God, it's a classic.

I mean, I know you and I both have experience with narcissists in different areas in our life. And I, it's that, but that is so classic. That's what they do. They pick at you and pick at you and they do enough things to where you explode because you're a normal human being with a normal reaction. And then they turn around and go, look how crazy you are. Oh, my goodness. I need help.

You really need that. Yeah, yeah. I know, it's scary. But you knew that and, you know, you knew how to add those layers to Dan, which I love. You know, it's funny because, you know, I mean, there's no specifics in this because I don't think it's fair. Of course. Because we pull a lot of our, you know, our work off of not one person, but just a plethora of life experience. Absolutely. But I will say that the people that have irritated me that have got under my skin the most are the ones that, I, I against my better nature, still trusted. Like, I, because they, they were good.

They were like, you know, supportive and loving and this and this. But something inside of me was going, yeah, this doesn't feel authentic. But I still wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt. Yeah. It's that gut feeling. It's hard to get in touch with your gut sometimes if you, I spent a lot of years of my life believing that my instincts were bad and just messed up like there was something wrong with my instincts. And so I needed to trust other people's instincts for me. And I spent a lot of time

handing out my autonomy to other people that I trusted. Some people were lovely people that I trusted and some people did terrible things to me because I trusted them and I shouldn't have. but at the end of the day that's my fault for not not um well i guess i mean you're a kid when i was especially when you're young you know those things get taught to you in such a strange ways but um at the end of the day it is our responsibility to learn how to come out of that and and trust that nobody knows better for us than us we're the only people that have our gut we're the only people living our lives and, you know, walking through life, not taking chances, not risking trusting the wrong people is no way to live. So I think you kind of have to do that.

You have to experiment with that. These are the great takeaways from our show, though. Imagine our audience watches all these scenarios. In this episode, there was 50 different scenarios of people being manipulated or feeling bad or situations not going the way you wanted them to. and it was about how people reacted to them. And so when all of our fans come up to us at conventions on the street and they want to talk about the show and they want to hear about it, you know, you realize that they're living through these characters

and they're bringing in their own life experiences and going, and it helps in a way, and I don't mean like to educate, but the more you see it going bad, the more you see it going good, more you see and help people react to situations, the more that you can say, oh, this is why I need to watch a show

because it gives me at least some sort of confirmation that I'm not crazy and that I'm not the bad person or I'm not doing anything wrong. Life just happens and it's how we're back to it. I love that. That really defines who I am. Yeah. I totally agree with that.

That's a really sweet way of looking at the show too. I love that. You said, speaking of trust issues, you said when we were watching this episode, Lucas and Haley, were laying in bed. They were just, you know, it was a late night best friends just laying there staring out

at this moon shining in the window and talking about... As it does. As it does. You know, talking about life. And he says, I noticed you're not wearing your wedding ring. And she says,

it's not because I don't love him and it's not because of the press tour or the record label. It's because I feel like I don't deserve to. And you didn't buy it. No, I didn't. And I think that's a really genuine So tell, okay, tell me what you think.

Tell me why that bothered you so much. Wait a minute. We're good friends. You tell me why you think I didn't bother. And then I'll tell you if you're right. You know me and I want to see. This is like, this is like that, you know, like that on the dating game, they go, how well do you know your partner? Oh, gosh.

Okay. All right. Okay. Let's see. You felt like it was a, you felt like it was an evasive answer. And I think you were bothered by the fact that she wasn't being completely honest with herself. You felt like she wasn't being honest with herself or with Lucas. I think it also bothered you because I know you've been lied to many times by women in your life.

And I'm sure that's built up a pattern. So I wonder if maybe your immediate distrust of that answer was partly because you felt like you've been lied. to a lot? I don't know. You are 100% in my mind. You know me better than anybody and you answered it beautifully. You are right on the money. Really? Yeah, it was I was listening to myself, a much prettier version of myself. So you thought the real answer maybe would be, I'm confused. I don't know what I want and you got a bit of the first time when you said that there was a there was a bit of dishonesty to herself about it you know i think that she knows why she tick it off but admitting it is to um is to um accountable it would make her too accountable for what she's really feeling

which is what do you think which is like i mean look not what what's what's on the show but what paul johansen interprets those types of behavior yes that's what i'm asking yeah yeah Right, okay, good, because I want to make sure there's definitely a difference. So my interpretation of that is, like, I'm a good girl. I'm never going to cheat on my husband. I'm never going to put it out there that I'm available, even though I'm still married, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but I'm going to take off my ring and tickle and tickle and, you know, my best friend on the sofa giggly giggly

with some sexual, you know, vibes to it. But I'm innocent, though. I'm innocent. My feeling is I'm a die-hard romantic. I always have been. I believe in love. I'm just not very good at it. And my feeling is, is if I truly loved somebody, you would have to cut my finger off before you could give my wedding room off even after we divorced because my love, like, is immutable.

It is strong. And I believe in it. I believe in that. I believe in marriage. I believe in that stuff. I just wish that, you know, that there was like, you and I lived in a fairy tale world where, like, you know, love could survive anything if it was real, you know what I mean? But it can't. You know, it's a romantic vision of the world that doesn't exist. And so it bothers me that it doesn't exist. You know what I mean? Yes, I do know what you mean. I also, would you say? It's not a perfect answer, but it's mine. Yes. I still just don't understand it, though. I don't understand. I mean, I get generally what you're saying, but I don't quite understand what you mean. She still love him. So she still loved him. Yes.

Does she, like, and he knows that she loves her. Yes. So that's, that's real. So that's all the ring means. Taking the ring off is not like taking up because I deserve it. Taking the ring off is saying, you know, I'm basically saying I'm available. My heart is not taken by one person anymore. That's what the symbolism to me meant.

That's why I would, I call them, be us on that. So it was like almost like a, it's a way of deceiving yourself. but really what you're doing is notifying the world that you are available again and do you think any more love story was more profound on the series One Tree Hill for 10 or nine years than that love story

that was the love story of the show yeah it was my favorite one to watch and I was there when he proposed to you I shot that episode oh you did wait oh my gosh Paul I forgot about that that's awesome I shot the one where you got were, you know, falling off the bed, leaving the voice message together. And, I mean, I loved shooting you guys together.

So I'm going to back back at that response. And you're not totally wrong, actually, in my opinion, based on me being, me as Haley, listening to that response, I wouldn't say you're totally wrong. But what I would say is that there's an element of feeling like she doesn't deserve it because she knows that she hasn't lived up to Nathan's expectations of her, and that she has sort of allowed herself to open her heart to the possibility of other people or someone else and maybe the marriage ending. And, like, that would lead her then to feeling that self-loathing of,

I don't even deserve this anyway, which it's kind of like, a double-edged is it a double-edged sword is that the right analogy it's definitely um yeah i mean i think i've been in can we can we joy can we love can you love two men at the same time no you be in love with two guys like i don't know you know what i mean i don't know i know that i can't yeah i know that i can't because i know me now after all these years i know that i can only love one person in a time. I mean, I could love people in different ways. Yeah, but you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. No, it's been, it's hard. Yeah. There's always, like, if I'm really in love with someone, I've, I've done it where I've been in love with someone, it's not working, and then I go out

with other people, and as much as I try great as they are. I'm the same, yeah. I just, I just can't. No, it's too hard. Absolutely. Well, yeah. The other thing was the was the, was the, was the, You know, we've commented on the, the, um, um, uh, uh, Kieran and, and Karen. Yeah, I was going to go to them next because that's another, another thing of, of the tragedies of, not to, not to, well, I should go on to this quote. The quote was there are two tragedies in life. This is the quote of the episode. There are two tragedies in life. Right.

Yes. To, uh, gain the desire of your heart or to lose the desire of your heart and also to gain it. So another loss here. and Andy. Yes, but I love the two actors. I love them very much. I really love them. It, the love that, that felt forced a little bit to me. It felt a little bit unearned in terms of the way that it ended to me. What do you mean? Because you, because they, it just didn't feel like they had enough history? That's, that's really the crux of the point. You captured immediately as as you do joy but part also is that I felt that you know they maybe there was something

edited out of the episode that might have given us a little bit more to oh that's interesting you know yeah I mean but also you haven't been watching the last you know 22 episodes and there has been me out publicly you're calling me out yeah oh come on we know you don't have time for that you fancy now you got so much going on that last line that he threw out at her oh that was rough that felt like it didn't need to be said what did he say oh i love you i love you too it it just seems like it just isn't enough yeah yeah wow ouch that was rough um yeah that was rough but karen had a karen had a big episode here oh she was when she came firing in man she does she does that irish anger really we were saying in the other episode her whole

chest went red in her face when she got angry with Lucas for something a few episodes ago. It was great. A lot of scenes together. Yeah. And she's such a calm and kind person in life. So it's great to see that her, her, as we call it, her paint, her canvas. Her canvas is so beautiful with colors that she can just draw them in. You know what I mean? That's lovely. There was one moment in this that felt strange to me, which was when after Andy leaves your office and you throw the award through the new glass window, presumably the new glass window. You know what bugged me about it? Paul, is that I just didn't believe Dan would ever give anyone the satisfaction of knowing that they had pissed him off. No, I agree with you. I think there

was some there was some conversations on this set about it was an unmotivated overreaction to me and I think that I remember having that conversation but what they wanted was the bookends yeah window back to back for you know for the drama of the finale and so they had to get there somewhere my job is to give them what they wish in a way that feels truthful and if it and honestly sometimes you can't fully achieve those things when requested even when you putting your very best work into it, you know. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture.

It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What was your experience like on other shows with things like that? Because I think in TV that happens a lot where something is just on a page or a writer's room decided, here's what we need for the poetry of the episode, and they're not taking into consideration that an actor, you know, may be able to bring to light reasons why it would not be organic to do it that way. And yet, it's television, it's not film, we don't have time to rehearse and adjust all those things. Was it, was it the similar on other TV shows that you had been on, that there was a lot of that all the time, or was it mostly more on One Tree Hill or less, or you've had such a long

career? There's two answers to that that I would like to put forward. First off is, because it's a really great question. for people that are listening that have, you know, ideas of theater or acting, whatever. And so they may run into these situations. So it's nice to talk about the process, especially the collaborative process on that level. On procedural shows, you know, you know them all. There's so many of them.

Yeah. There's no conversations. This is what's happening. The committee, the committee has passed down the lectern. This is what's happening to do because they shoot them fast. You get out and you don't have debate, you know, on that. that it's happening. On a show with a really hands-on kind of showrunner, like a Matt Weiner who have worked for people like that, there's intelligent conversations which help you

understand the process is where they got to. And these aren't, you know, these sort of like quick decisions. They're very thought out and they have meaningful collaborations with actors and you get to figure things out, which work. And they will make adjustments. in order to make that work. But to turn it all around from a directing point of view as a director and you've worked with me as a director, if an actor says to me,

this isn't, I'm not, this doesn't feel organic. I feel like I'm faking this. Yeah. To me, that is like the death of anything I ever want film. Yeah, the same way. Yeah, you are. And I remember one time, you know, you and I were working on a scene

and you were supposed to, you were supposed to get really mad to something. And you said, I just feel like I want to like wipe this table thing and smash everything. I said, well, then do it. And you're like, I can do that. And you're kind of stopped. Remember in your tracks?

Yes. I can do it. I went, yeah, and I said, well, then they'll have to clean it off. And I said, then they'll have to clean it all up and do it. Like that's no disrespect to the crew, but that's their job. Yeah, sure. You'll have a job. Your job is to be truthful.

And our job is to give you the environment to be truthful in. Yes. You know, so you figure it out, you know. Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. I remember, yeah, I remember on soaps. There was, there was such a fast pace with that schedule.

And I don't know if they were shot differently in L.A. than they were in New York because did you guys do camera blocking? Like you went in and did like rehearsal blocking in a blank room. Then you did camera blocking and then everybody shot. They had like a slot between one and five, but they would go in and shoot their scenes in the afternoon. That's how we shot ours. We did two of the three of those. We didn't have a rehearsal blocking. We had an on-set read-through where the director and the producers would walk through the set and go,

conflict, conflict! And the director would go, this is where you stand, and then you move over here, then you move over here. And they would literally paint lines on the floor so you wouldn't miss it. But then they always had, there was four, right? The what? Always three or four cameras going. Yep. At the same time.

And then in the afternoon, you'd block out your pieces and shoot them. And you usually do them twice, right? Because there were some soaps that you would go in and everything was done all at once. So you would go in and do your blocking, then you would immediately do camera blocking, and then you would shoot your scene. So everybody just went in hair and makeup at different times, but everything would happen at once. And I never liked the idea of that. I'm glad we didn't do that because it gave us time to process after our blocking rehearsal. you'd have time to process

before you went back to camera blocking and said, wait, something feels wrong, something doesn't feel right about this. But Buntree Hill was, every director had kind of their own vibe, but we always kept the same kind of formula, right? You know? Yeah.

Yeah, that was it. Everybody, you would come in, get your makeup done, you'd really just get to set and start, you'd rehearse quickly. There was a 20-minute break for camera blocking, or two hours, depending on. Depending on what was going on that day.

And then you'd shoot. We did. Along the fans would have loved to have been in the makeup room where all the gossip was going down. And people were talking about their weekends and who did what and went and where and now. No. Everybody's like bonding and friendships and people bringing in cookies. It was very nice. It was fun.

There was also a lot of drama in the hair and makeup trailer. And I, we've talked a lot, Hillary, Sophia and I on the show, I've talked a lot about, you know, this is just so easy to have so many misunderstandings. And it is a place for gossip a lot of the time. And something I can say that I've noticed in this business is as time has gone on, it's not like it used to be in the hair makeup trailer. It's talking about someone behind their back or gossip or, you know,

where the whole trailer's just like up in arms talking about something. that's not happening anymore. I haven't seen that on a set in a very long time. Good. Yeah. So I don't know. You know, because it's distracting. And a lot of times I would wear headphones because I just couldn't hear.

I have to go do a scene with somebody and I'm finding all these things out about them that have nothing to do with my scene. And I really want to be focused on preparing my performance and preparing a mental place for that character. We're walking into the scene, you know. This whole thing that people, one thing that is all. always lacking in conversations about watching shows. When you watch the next time you watch a TV show, and the new scene starts, you know, remember that character is coming in

with all the history of everything that just happened to that character before. When you're an actor, that's what you're reviewing before you go into the, you're walking under the set. Your head's going, what's the last time I saw this person? What did they say to me? How did I react? What happened since then?

What new information I've learned? And now I'm walking into the scene and I have something to say. But it doesn't just happen where you walk out and see your lines. Right. There's a whole prior event value going on there. Yeah. Audiences, when they watch it, they go, oh, this person's always got, they're coming in with something. It's like, it's because they're doing their work.

Yeah. And you have to have the space to be able to do that in an undistracted space like that. It's super important. That's probably why, I think that's one of the reasons why artists get a bad rap as being really fussy sometimes because you can be in a moment where you're really trying to be. prepare to give the most authentic performance so that the audience can have the most authentic experience. And if you get annoyed with someone who's bouncing around the set, chit, chatting, or, you know, just being super distracting or somebody who's standing next to you and just gossiping

or trying to rope you into something. And if you, you know, in your zone go, I can't deal with that right now. Can we, you know, because it's so hard to stay focused and also turn to someone and go into a completely different zone of, hey, listen, I'm just trying to focus right now on my work and I totally respect that you want to have this conversation. Would you mind doing it somewhere else? Like my brain, it's really hard for me to maintain, but yeah, but to maintain that dual, like, I don't know how to stay in, I can't stay in my zone. I have to come out of my zone in order to take care of someone else's problem and then try and find my way back into my zone. And that's really hard. Joy so difficult to work with. I can't believe she asked me not to talk about

my new gardening on my backyard. It was in the middle of telling her about my beats being planted and she said, I'm in space. Right? No, but I wanted to bring your beats. But my favorite person, I think on the set, you know, everyone has an onset demeanor, right? Yeah. Everyone, like, we're sitting in chairs, we're yacking away, we're rehearsing or we're talking, we're chatting about whatever. We're sitting in our, in our director chairs, waiting to go and shoot a scene and I'll show me around. There was one person who's my favorite person I've ever worked with. And her name is, I'll name some of her movies. She'll tell me who it is. Okay. She was in the Daniel Bay Lewis movie, about Lincoln.

Oh, okay. She was in fried green tomatoes, tender mercies. Mary Stewart Masterson? Sally Field. Sally Field. Oh, my gosh. My favorite on set demeanors. Sally comes with her own chair.

Okay. And a bag. And she's fully, fully rehearsed. No, it's not only her lines, but everybody's lines. She's the smartest person in the room. She sits down and she just needle points all day. Wow. And listens.

And then when it's her turn, she puts it down, and she's amazing. It's like one of those things Where she's just her She doesn't leave Even when she's not in the scene She's still there Needle pointing You worked with her on soap dish

One of my favorite movies Very funny movie Very funny movie Maggie I was at the gym doing legless From Father Corey told me Your experience in the soup kitchen Are you all right? And I'm my shirt's off

And I'm glistening Oh my gosh It was so much fun It's so good I love that You know who else On our show Sounds very similar to that

actually. Sharon Lawrence is stellar at that. She is a dynamite actress and also can really manage. She's just such a southern genteel woman. She knows how to manage every personality around her. She loves you, Joy. I love her too. She's, we talked to, was it the party that you had at yours? It was a Christmas party? My Christmas party, yeah. She was just, you know, we talked about you and she's like, she gets what I get. You know, she's sweet. Thank you. Yeah, it's an interesting thing to be an artist in this, in this world. James had a very sort of solo alone vibe in this episode, suffering by himself kind of like, you know, people come in and go, but then nobody stays with him. Yeah. He's kind of, I really like the way they design that to make him kind of like a man alone.

You know what I mean? That's a great point. I hadn't thought about that. I really like that, too, because all we've seen of him is with Lucas in the last few episodes where, or dealing with stuff with Dan, and this was the first time, even the dinner table or the barbecue table that Dan set out, set out flowers for apparently. I was like, wow, the lavender's out on the table. Okay, Dan.

Give me a second. I'll turn my light back on. Can I turn it on? What are you trying to turn on? My light just popped off. Oh, yeah, go ahead. He'll turn out his light. But I was going to say while you do that, that I love seeing, even though he had that

moment with Dan over the barbecue, horrible about Dan telling him about Deb's addiction. It was just such a bad parenting moment. But I think you're right. I love seeing that giving James the opportunity to just wrestle, have Nathan wrestle with himself in his own issues rather than wrestling. with everyone else's interpretation of Nathan's issues. He just had to be alone with himself. Yeah.

Really nice. I liked it, too. Can we talk about Lee and Catherine? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I love it. Go ahead. She's throwing herself at him.

I know. Right? It's a nice place for him to be at as a character, you know, to have this charming, sweet, fun, southern, you know, full of life. girl like make him number one and it's kind of nice to see him kind of like like just seep in that yeah yeah i love mouth we all love mouth he's our he's our favorite go-to anytime guy you know like he's always there for you he's always reliable um but we're gonna go out of way right that's why what you oh he is yeah that's right he nor is uh we're gonna go to listener questions but before we do

in the interest of the bookends that we talked about and the theme of this episode, the two tragedies in life. At the end of the episode, Mouth disagrees, speaking of mouth, he disagrees and says, no, it's, you know, whoever George Bernard Shaw was never kissed Erika, right?

But the sentiment of gaining your heart's desire isn't a tragedy. I'm curious as to what you think about that quote. I think George Bernard Shaw was a genius, and I think he's right. I do. Absolutely. I mean, you must feel the same way. I mean, I've never suffered more than when I'm in love.

Yes. You know what I mean? I can handle any tragedy, but when I'm in love, everything is like magnified. Yes, that's true. But also, you know what made me think of that gaining the desire of your heart, there is a tragedy in it because then you've got it. And now what? Now you have to find something else. It's like the death of the chase.

When you spend so long chasing a desire, once you have it, it's scary. It's because it's like, well, what do I do now? Now I have it. Unless you're the child of an alcoholic and you think that you don't deserve it. And so it's going to leave you at one point. You better work really hard to keep it. Oh, interesting. Constant, you know, you know, tension to prove you're worthy of keeping that love.

Oh, wow. Right? Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. I don't know that I feel that way. I think I do have a, I love the chase. and then once I catch it, there's a little part of me. And it's anything.

It's not love necessarily, but professional things, projects, anything. It's like once you get it, then it's, I think it's kind of a human nature thing. Just, okay, now what? I've got to move on to something else. And that's why we, the tragedy is that we keep climbing. We keep reaching for the next thing and the next thing and the next thing, thinking we're going to arrive somewhere, but we never do. what's above love what are you what are you going to reach for above love like what is there above that

like how can you reach for anything higher than that yeah but then you get into the whole esoteric conversation of what is love and like where you know is love a choice and then the responsibilities of love it's so teric conversation actually let me take that let me take that let me just say this and this is a conversation type of Quinn and well i have a very special 11 year old so we do have these conversations. I tell him that it doesn't matter necessarily, like, because I always talk about, like, you know, this pursuit of happiness vibe that goes around. I'm not a believe it right. I don't believe that happiness is something to pursue. It's the byproduct of finding yourself on your purpose. I agree. Happiness is kind of like, is the result of something

rather than a goal in itself. Yeah. And in love, as you're, as you said, it's like there is definitely value in to want just the words to want i want this i want that job i want that money i want that person i want that acclaim to want is a wonderful thing because it gives a lot of a lot of direction and a lot of motivation but it's really that in itself the to want part of the life is really what life is to get is not what life is but to want is you know what I mean I do this reminds me of something my French hairdresser told me oh this is perfect he said I said I'm hungry I was sitting in the chair I said I'm hungry and he said so well I don't know I was thinking of ordering some food he said you would be done

we'd be done in about an hour are you fine you know you just wait and I was like well but I'm hungry. He goes, it's okay to be hungry. That's, that is life. It's, it's just a feeling that exists. You just are hungry. So what? If you're unhappy, so what? You will be happy again. Just live through the hunger, live through the unhappiness, and you will be fed and you will be happy again. This is the French way of life, he says. It's okay to be hungry. this is so perfect we were in terrace not five four or five days ago yeah we had gotten the kids in the car sammy's driving we're going to a restaurant it's 10 minutes away we're four minutes into the drive and in the back seat i hear can we just go into that restaurant i'm hungry what about that pizza

place right there and sammy's like got a place for us he lives in paris his life he knows where we're going and he's like we're six minutes away like, yes, but I'm hungry. And the whole car, I was like, thinking of myself, is he going to, like, throw his plans away for us? No. But it was like, this is so perfect. We had such a passive-aggressive fight in the car, you and I.

By the way, it wasn't six, it wasn't four minutes in. You said, I was like, at least long as you're not going to be in the car for like a half an hour. How long's the ride? You said, 10 minutes. And then 20 minutes later, I'm in the car. Like, are we still there? And he says, another 10 minutes. And then I started to have the monster come out, my hangary mom.

But at the end of the day, you're right. At the end of the day, it's okay to exist in the feelings that you're feeling because they will pass and something new will come along. That's all the feelings are. Yeah. They never stay. Yeah. I wish we could tell Peyton and Chad, Peyton, Peyton Lucas and Brooke and Haley and Nathan that in this episode and Karen. But we can't. We'll have to wait until next week. We're Sophia. and me will have a special guest, Ms. Lindsay McKeon. Very excited for that. It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred to be.

you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So we're going to have a couple listener questions, and we'll do a spin a wheel and we'll say goodbye.

The first listener question, Paul, do you have your chat open? Fire away. Okay, you read the first one, the Triana. Go ahead. I have always wondered how they decorate the homes with. family pictures. Do they have a photo shoot before the episodes is filmed? Also, do they use your real baby pictures or use random people. They do both. They do both. Yeah. I bet every new job I have if I'm in the house, they ask me to, I usually pawn it off to my mom. I usually send the

email to my mom. And I'm like, can you send them baby pictures of me, please? You're like family photos. Yeah. But they also throw us in like clothes from another period in time in our lives. And And then they, I don't know, maybe they Photoshop our faces sometimes, remember? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Definitely lots of photoshopping happening. Yeah. Yeah.

Our next question comes from Frankie. How does it work when someone who is directing the episode is also in it, like Paul with episode 17? I've done this too. I don't like this at all. I do not like directing an episode that I'm in. I would much prefer just to sit back and, because it's just so hard to be. in the moment of the scene. I'm so fully in the moment as an actor that to have to not be, to have to be watching the other actor in the scene and thinking of notes to give them

while we're actually just trying to do a scene. That's very hard for me. How do you feel? It's different from me. I'm, you know, I'm, you know, I set it up. I like to see, you know, the framing. So I want to see somebody kind of walk through the paces where we're going to be, what the camera's going to see as it goes along. And once I'm, you know, I'm going to see. And once I, you know, I'm Once I'm comfortable with what the framing is, you know, I trust, usually we always have, and we had very good people. In fact, our D.P. is all directed. Yes.

So their insight was very valuable, and I like to lean on people that I trust. I've actually worked with a lot of people that I don't trust their opinion, but on One Tree Hill, all of the technical crew was fantastic. And I trusted Peter and, you know, and everybody that was working. was so yeah i didn't have any problem when i started getting to a scene and and in acting um you know it's like i'm i'm one of those i'm one of those fortune kind of people where i kind of i'm not too overly hard on myself you know what i mean yeah my my outside vision of myself doesn't overpower my you know my wanting to be present for that other actor yeah i make that a priority so

a lot of times i'm not sure how it went because i kind of let it go and then i try trust that, you know, Peter Quasca will go, great, man, move on. But how do you give another actor that you're in the scene with a note? Well, usually you'll have done the rehearsal, right? Yeah. And you'll kind of know what they're going to be throwing out there. Yeah. And beating major is going to be addressed in that.

But if they're having issues, nuanced issues, generally, you know this. You know, most actors kind of know when they've, you know, kind of not been able to hit their what they want what they needed to make the scene work and you know I think that's true especially in that show where it wasn't terribly sophisticated you know yeah that's true straight forward good training ground yeah uh okay so guys we're gonna spin a wheel here and uh paul this is our every every episode we do most likely to like a yearbook so who is most like who which character and which real life person is most likely to go ahead read it for us please Become a detective.

Oh gosh. Well, Dan would be... Brooke. Brooke! Yes, she's such a super sleuth. Absolutely. We didn't even talk about her on this episode. Oh, I know.

She should have. She was so charming. She was. She threw her heart out there, and I was going to bring it up a couple of times, and we kept getting out of stuff. But she, you know, that one look away in the car when she was, you know, when she was kind of like,

and I know you're like Peyton. And then you look away, and they Zurak focused her. And you just want to put her, you know, squish, and we needed her in this episode, actually, just to, I mean, there was so much weight and sadness. Her floating in and out of, she's so great with Tyler isn't she? Yes. She's funny. Yes. I wonder if those two characters ever did end up in bed together.

That would have been really funny. Oh, you know what? If they didn't, it's a missed opportunity because those guys are, for me, they're the two funniest people on the show. For sure. they're very very funny yes i actually really i love i love i love me too your energy was so good in that episode you know the one thing i was going to say also we got a quickly point at this this was a very strong voice of the opening where the three girls talked about what's inside their mind i wasn't in the opening no they were reading um they were they were reading the quote

and then they were talking it was like Hillary Sophia and then um but we were hearing inside their minds for a second as we got into and I thought you know I love that our show gave that privilege us as an audience right yeah like here's here's the thoughts of because we always talk about what's the influence of the show on young people right here's young people talking you know this is what's inside my head we know this is happening but that was a nice way to make a connection with your audience yeah I think so too uh I love that I love that they allowed us to take over the monologue that previously had only been Lucas's. Yeah, that's really nice.

Well, guys, thank you for joining us for this very special episode. Paul, you were awesome. I love chatting with you always. Next time, we'll do it later with wine. Dinner at Pache. I'm in. I'm in.

Okay. Hey, everybody. Come on back next week. We're going to be watching the season finale, Season 2 finale number 23, the Levers Dance. And we will pull a scenario from the virtual, most likely two hats. See you later. Hey, thanks for listening.

Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's O-TH. Or email us at Drama Queens at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take that. you for a ride and our comic girl cheering for the right team

drama queens dream a smart girl rough girl fashion but you'll tough girl you could sit with us girl drama queen drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens it may look different but native culture is alive my name is Nicole Garcia and on burn sage burn bridges

we aim to explore that culture somewhere along the way it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop that's Dr. Lee Francis the 4th, who opened the first native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.