Drama Queens - Everyone’s Happiness ᐧ EP624 (Part 1)

Episode Date: June 17, 2024

It may have been a season finale, but this episode had the feel of a series finale. There’s so much to unpack and emotions run high as the girls delve into Whitey and Dan, the long term real-life effect of Victoria’s apology and the weight of Hilarie and Chad’s last performances.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. Smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl.

Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Well, Hillary, you want to bring us in? Oh, my God. Yes. Guys, it is episode 24 of season six. Remember me as a time of day. Air date May 18th, 2009. Nathan.

Nathan? I just loved Haley and Nathan in this episode. He is released from the Chiefs and is forced to face Haley and Jamie. That's a... That's a diversion. Yeah. On the eve of Peyton's delivery, Lucas and Peyton receive a surprise visit from Karen. This synopsis is...

Who wrote this? Too short. This synopsis doesn't want you to know any spoilers, but we're going to give them to you anyway. I'm like, shouldn't they say the night of Peyton and Lucas's wedding? Not the eve of her delivery. What? Like it was planned? Yeah, the...

The imminent. delivery. It's a really dark teaser. For emergency delivery. Yeah. Big episode. But big episode for everybody. I thought, like this felt like a two-hour special. It really did. Yeah. Every single character got a wrap-up, including people we haven't seen in a long time. Yeah. No, am I wrong? You're like, well, you're like, you're nodding your head. What do you mean? No, I agree. Yeah, there were people that didn't get wrapped up. Did I miss anybody? Well, we didn't see skills. Oh, shoot, that's it.

Yes. He got kind of a nice wrap-up in the last episode with Ms. Lauren. Like, we knew that they were on a path. Yeah. This kind of set out the future of the show knowing that everyone's on their path and everyone seems partnered up in a really healthy, happy way. And that is a feel-good thing. I know that a lot of fans have said this felt like a series finale instead of a season finale.

And it really, I hadn't seen. thought of it that way. It wasn't that on purpose? We knew we were coming back. And it already announced we were coming back. Oh, that's right. The one season, we didn't need a season finale or a series finale was the one we got one. It almost felt like they'd written this. Like, they decided what the end of the show was going to be. Yeah. And then in 621, when we got the pickup, they were like, well, it's honestly a really good script. Yeah, it's still a good episode. Just leave it alone. You know? Same thing I was thinking. Absolutely. But it worked. I loved that. And also it gave it a place to, I mean, we did it the first time after four years to come back. There was a wrap up and then we came back not quite knowing what to expect in the next new phase of these characters' lives. And so especially knowing that you and Chad were leaving, I think they had to do something that was going to give viewers a sense of closure.

and feeling like this whole chapter is wrapped up. So we're going to start something new, but it has to be able to feel new without all these lingering issues. Well, sometimes when a show has been on as long as ours was, no cliffhanger is a cliffhanger, right? It makes people are so used to like, is Dan Scott dead? Who lit the fire? People are so used to being teased in that way that when there's no tease,

it makes you suspicious. You're like, what, wait, when's the other shoe going to drop? Everybody's too happy. What's going on? It's all been a dream.

Everyone's dead. Dan Scott had a point. This is hell. Oh, Dan Scott. Even he got closure with Whitey. What a romance there. Wow. Not expecting that.

That full circle moment. There was so much about this episode that I completely forgot. No recollection of. There's so much. I have so many notes. I vividly remember the very first thing we see when Chad carried me into the hospital and Lucas kisses Peyton's arm. It happens in a blink and I had completely like forgotten about it until I watched it in the episode

and just had the muscle memory of Chad doing that and being I couldn't react because I'm like comatose, right? But being so choked up that his immediate reaction was to kiss any body part of mine that he could reach because it might be the last time he gets to do that. Like, that's still, oh, I'm still choked up. Like, it was such a, it was a good instinct for him. And I don't know if people even clock it, but I did. Because it's also a weird thing when someone kisses you, like close to your armpit.

It's not like a natural, not a natural spot. But I thought it was such a sincere gesture. I liked it. Yeah, when Chad shows up, he shows up. And he showed up in this episode. His performance was really beautiful. It's also so interesting to realize how much to your point some of the stuff from this episode stuck with all of us. Like when we were watching 623, I was like, well, where's the shot of you bleeding in the draft? Like, I know, I've seen it. How dare they edit this for streaming? And then I was like, oh, there it is. Wow, that's really burned into my brain in a way.

like there's so many things that that stick and I think it is to your point it's because people really showed up and because they wrote this sure it's kind of a wrap up but it's like really it's emotional wish fulfillment and you've wanted these people to have their dreams come true for six years and I mean I cried through the entire episode yeah and I thought I just thought every single thing worked like from from war sweater being the first song with that haunting like violin string and just all of it like it starts in this really emotional terrifying place and then as everything begins to grow happier and and you see this payoff like I don't know it flowed in a way the whole episode felt like music to me it was really

special to watch it again. It was a lot of montage. You know, the montage at the beginning where we're seeing everyone in places of loneliness or peril or darkness, that is a different way to start an episode. Hold on. And I just, everything was working for me

until they go to Gas Patent. And she opens her eyes. and it turned into a horror movie where it felt like the Twilight Zone. They were like coming to me with the mask and hooking up my arms and shit. And that was, it was not a fun day at work, but it was funny to watch because it just went from being like, everyone's sad and tree hill. We're all really emo to wait a second. Is this a horror movie?

Like what is happening here? Wait, Hillary, I have in my notes, what a great moment that was for you, because it's so easy to overact and make it feel like a horror movie where your eyes go wide and you're like, oh, my God, these things are coming out of me. And the cameras shot the doctor's hands coming at your face and all that. It was a very, you know, horror movie shot. But because of the expression on your face, because you didn't overact, you were completely there still.

And all you did was look around with this innocent, like, days. It was really good because you could have overacted it. I mean, anybody could have just, you know, open up your eyes wide and look scared. That's easy to do. But you didn't. And so I bought it. And it's in my notes. I was like, that was a really well done moment for you.

Guys, how do we feel about the OR viewing room? That's in my notes. In all caps, they would never allow him in the operating gallery. They would never let us watch you have a C-section. Guys, I said this on set that day. Yeah. We all were like, what are we doing? doing, and they didn't care. They were like, it's emotional. We were like, sure, or it's

going to be the thing that ruins the emotion, because everyone watching the show is going to be like, well, that's fucking stupid. I have never been to a hospital with like a, I don't know, operating gallery. Yeah, is that the green room up there? Is that just snacks in that room? Snacks and sodas. Well, what made it even funnier was that they cut the glass out. Do you remember that? For reflection. They had the glass up and they got us all in there, and they tried forever to get the setup right so that they could get all of us in the shot and not have reflections of the camera. And finally, they were just like, pull the glass out. And then we were like, oh, come on. You can just see straight through it. Lucas's hands were, he was holding

a frame of the wall. You guys, it's like Evita. They're on the balcony. Don't cry for me. I enjoy that. I mean, it was funny and totally unbelievable. But, also, you know, in Tree Hill, anytime something bad happens to you, there has to be an audience. And I, you know, everybody else gets hurt on a basketball court or out on the street in front of everybody. Payton just gets hurt in her house. So we had to invite the audience in. We just had to bring everybody to her. But we shot the episode totally backwards. So that actually was the last thing we shot. And we shot all the happy shit first. Oh, that's why you were saying you were covered in blood on your last day. Oh, yeah. I mean, we shot all the happy stuff first. So the day that

we drove off into the sunset was what we shot first. Oh, a motorcycle gang just drove by. Hello. Hello, boys. It's all like 70-year-old dudes. So we were out on the street and there's like a viral video that's going around on Instagram right now of Chad talking to fans and they're all like, are you coming back next year? And he's like, no, they don't want me back. They're not going to pay me. And it was from that day.

Because we were out on the street and there's this huge crowd and they're like, Chad, we love Lucas, blah, blah, blah. And that's a real moment of my character's beloved. I've done my job. I've shown up in this like, you know, this mess is still happening

was very weird. And so Chad made that comment and I don't know that he knew a fan was getting it on camera, but then we were in trouble for spoiling the end of the show. I mean, it was just a comedy of errors, but the baby smiled and everyone knew that was magic. So we only had to do it like two times because they were like, well, we got it.

That shot again. Yeah. Yeah, it was a weird, it was just a weird experience. Well, it was also like sort of surreal to me because the song over the end is can't you see and in the moment where you guys drive away and it goes up into that big beautiful crane shot the lyric that plays over the car beginning to move is ain't never coming back and i was like i didn't catch that oh it like it it made me jump when i heard it and i was like that feels really surreal that was the moment of the sink and i was like was that on purpose Did that just happen? I don't know. It was bizarre.

So to hear that not only the scene feels bizarre to watch, but that it was so bizarre, IRL is interesting. Well, and for people at home, our boss wrote and directed this episode. So for all of the trauma of the last, there was like two months of weirdness at the end there. Then, like, your grand finale, your final exit is with the person.

who was at the epicenter of just making this awful, there was no getting around it. And so maybe that's why I'm kind of, I've got some gallows humor about it because that was the only way to function. Just like, okay, cool, kill me now, kill me later. It'll be fine. I'm going to be great.

I felt like Dan Scott in the episode, honestly. And Dan is so great in this because it's just like, I don't know where this went sideways. I'm going to, I'll try to go all the way back. I'll try to look as far back as humanly possible to see where I'm at fault here. And yeah, I liked that we got to see Whitey again. I loved that moment. I needed that visual break from Tree Hill to go out on a ranch,

a random ranch house somewhere and see Barry walking around with a horse in the wood-paneled home and old vintage couch fabric. There was something about that that was a really nice break that helped me continue to feel the flow of everybody else's storylines rather than it feeling all blending into one. I was so surprised to see Whitey,

did not remember that Dan goes back to him. I didn't either. I thought it was such a cool choice, though. Oh, so great. Yeah, and like you're saying, Hillary, going all the way back to the beginning, He's like, what's the moment that I, it had to have been before then in real life, obvious, in real life, in the real life arc of Dan and whatever, you know, like, it had to go

back up real life. Yeah, and Dan's made up real life. It had to actually go back further than that. But the moment where he says, he's talking about everybody having these new moments in their life and he says, and I don't get to feel those moments, it really struck me about how somebody grows into a place where you can't it's not that people are cutting you out of feeling those moments i mean they are but also you're incapable even if they let you in you can't allow yourself to feel it because of all the things that you've done in your life to lead you

that place and and whitey comes in with this line you created that danny got me that was a weird line to me though because he's just spent all this quality time with jamie and And so I didn't understand if he was saying, I don't feel anything when I get to experience that. Because Haley and Nathan have let him in. They have let him be with Jamie. He's been a huge part of that kid's life. And I was like, it was a weird thing to kind of minimize that, considering how important it has been to Dan. Dan's also kind of grandiose, though.

And when he's feeling sorry for himself, everything's wrong, when really he still has a beautiful beach house. He's handsome, like, you, Dan, you know. I think it's true that he has trouble feeling it. I think he wants to, but it makes sense to me that he would even have access to some of these things, like in relationship with his grandson and still feel like I can't feel what I'm supposed to feel here because I'm blocked because I don't believe I deserve it because I've done all these shitty things. People are complex. and I think there's something interesting too about particularly when you think about what he says to Peyton when he says she's the only one in my life who doesn't know what I've done because now even Jamie knows and I wonder if for him what he's trying to acknowledge and you know what the writers didn't say

but is that maybe like being with Jamie is hard because he gets just a touch, like just a taste. He gets to hold Sawyer for just a moment before you take her back. And I could see how much it affected you to see him with her. And I wonder if what he's trying to say is that no matter what he knows he's on the outside. Yeah. And the boys, his sons won't.

talk to him like maybe the kid will but nobody really lets him in their adult lives in a meaningful way yeah and you know nathan walking around him to go be with whitey um all of it it's it's such an interesting thing because hell for dan scott is accountability yeah he's on the outside because he's being held accountable for his actions and it is so painful for him Yeah, that's it. It's like, that's what shame does. It stops you from being able to really enjoy good things because it's just, you have to kind of cut yourself off from it because the stakes are too high.

You built up too much. So you either have to double down or you can ask for forgiveness and try and forgive yourself. But it's painful to do that. And with somebody like Dan who's done so many clearly. morally uh objectionable, questionable,

wrong things. Yeah. Um, the level of shame. Oof. Like how do you, how do you move past that? It may look different, but native culture is very alive.

My name is Nicole Garcia. And on Burn Sage, burn bridges, we aim to explore, that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly like very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric that this is something we've been doing for a hundred years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast,

Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Don't you love that both Scott boys on the same day, in the same hour, went to their coach. Like, Nathan goes to his coach to deliver some amazing news and Dan goes to his coach to ask him to kill him, you know? Like, the role of mentors in a person's life, it's really important.

And Whitey, having removed himself from Tree Hill, you know, he used to live. he used to live in a house a couple doors down for Lucas Scott because it went Lucas's house, Whitey's house, Jake Jigelsky's house when we were filming in that area. He's now living his best cowboy life. They really let Barry be Barry. They did. Those ties last forever, you know, and we see our boys coaching basketball now and wonder, you know, Nathan goes to Quentin's grave.

Those are the legacies. It's not blood. It's not family. It's that genuine care that you choose. And Whitey still is coaching Dan. He's coaching Dan through the self-loathing, even though he hates this dude. Just love it.

It's also a really interesting thing, too. We're having all these meditations on family. in this episode and what family and future looks like to people and and you know is it everything you always dreamed and dan struggles with this idea that one of his sons has just had a baby and he knows he won't be in their life so he goes to the only father figure he ever really had which is whitey yeah and what a wild thing it must be for him to realize that his boys the same, that Whitey was much more a father figure to them than Dan ever was. Wow. We needed more of Whitey this season. We really did. Also, like, Whitey didn't choose that.

It's so, like, just in piggybacking off of what you're saying, too, um, Hillary, because he didn't choose that. He, like, I'm sure he was not in the mood to mentor and be held accountable, holding this jackass accountable for the rest of his life in town. Yeah. Constantly being the phone call. When he coached him at 15 years old, he's like, I got to do with Danny for him. how long? Yeah, but it's amazing how life does that. Just keeps weaving people together,

keeps putting Whitey in his path. And Dan and his, oh, man, it's good storytelling, guys, it is. Mm-hmm. You know, there should have been a trigger warning on this ideation, the suicide bit, because, you know, we've seen Nathan struggle with it. We've seen Dan struggle with it. That is something that is really sensitive. and Dan clearly is exhibiting signs of distress.

And I'm just like, did anybody make a phone call after that? Or was it just like not in my living room? Right. Please do that somewhere else. Like, oh, God. Honestly, that was making me crazy. I was like, is Dan Scott so selfish that he's going to go off himself in Whitey's dream home? Like, that was something that was scary for me because I was just,

just like, what is he doing? He's still not thinking about anybody other than himself in this moment. And it was stressful to witness. Yeah, I showed didn't give trigger warnings very well. What a surreal thing, like when you really think about that, to ask a person who's known you most of your life to kill you. Like, that is so heavy. And I hadn't thought about what you.

you were saying just now hell in that way like the the pressure to to put that pressure on someone else my god dan is such a narcissist yeah because then he's still not held accountable then it's whitey shot him instead of him shooting himself the accountability thing you're right is like that's his kryptonite he can't deal and he makes assumptions about relations that I don't think are there, assuming that he was closer with Whitey than he really was, when he talks about Sawyer and he says she's the only person in my life that doesn't know what I've done in my head, I remember on the day, and when I just watched it back thinking, you think she's in your life?

Right. Like you think there's a relationship there? Yeah. That's weird. I would have never thought that. Yeah, he's so turned upside down. He doesn't know what's up and what's down. that's what's so beautiful to me about whitey hugging him in that moment that felt so i wish we'd

had more time with it because you could see how much work and time paul and barry had put into that scene and he only had an hour for the episode you know but man i would like to have spent a little more time there with them and that hug and just somebody letting him know there's if there's a sliver of hope for you i'm willing to extend in spite of of all the things you've done and all the things you've done to me, I'm still willing to give you a hug and show you love and compassion. That's outrageous. It's really beautiful.

Well, he also, I was scared for a moment that Whitey was going to, like, really buy it. Barry was so good in that. When Nathan walks up, I was scared that Nathan's moment was going to be ruined by Whitey being like, you should share this with your father, son. Yeah. Like, no. They just, like, went and had their moment and Dan had to walk away. And so while he showed compassion, he still maintained the boundary.

Yeah. You are on the outside, Danny. And there's hope for you to be on the inside, but you're going to have to do the work. I'm not your liaison. I'm not your bridge. You go figure you out and do the work. Yeah. And I think that's important because we've given Dan's got chance after chance after chance.

And there are just certain personalities that cannot. get out of their own way. And it's not anybody else's job to fix them. He can sit. Maybe that applies to our boss as well. There were so many apology speeches in this script. And there was a part of me sitting there listening to them being like, what beautiful words, what wisdom, what karma.

Yeah, it's do the work. And Dan hasn't done it. on the work. He's on this journey now, though. It's like it seems like it's actually starting. But we've had so many moments of him feeling like he's actually starting. And so that's what, and so many people have told him that and directly been there walking through that with him and giving him these chances. And I want to believe it's new, but I guess we'll see. I'll see what happens. I think when you take inventory of your life and you look at the people who have stood by you and you look at the people who you were thrust together with, there are

people that need chance after chance after chance after chance after chance and they're addicted to new beginnings. They are addicted to conflict and resolution. In my 40s, I'm only now realizing to steer clear of those people. I don't know if that's true. I think it's really important to be empathetic and hold them at arm's length because there are so many people out there that are consistent and stable and supportive and safe and realizing that there's personality addictions. Like Dan Scott clearly has this problem with wanting to start over and over and

over again, but never actually takes off. He never actually gets to chapter two. He's always at chapter one of the realization. Oh, you're saying, like, it's Sisyphus's rock, like people who will get to the, get to the breaking point, and then turn around and sabotage themselves all the way back to the beginning and then keep playing back. Oh, I see what you're saying. Because I was like, yeah, I mean, but everybody has to grow. Like, you have to have constant new beginnings. How else do you grow as a human? I don't know if that's an addiction. I think that's actually like super important and healthy for people that continue to grow. In relationship, you can't continually sabotage your relationships over and over again.

And that's what we see Dan do. And we saw Lucas start to develop that pattern as a teenager and grow out of it as an adult, which is that's what, you know, breaking generational curses is all about. That's why we love Lucas because we know what he could have been. We know what Nathan could have been. and their whole storyline is to break that generational curse and not follow what was modeled for them. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and I think it's really, it's a really interesting thing. And they're, you know, it's kind of like Jojo's old phrase, right? Like, two horns on the same goat. Like, they're close together, but also wildly different. These two things we're talking about. You know, yes, I.

think it's an incredible thing to grow throughout your life and to be willing to. By the way, like when we talk about growth, when people outgrow bad situations or they decide to break generational trauma or they realize they're in absolutely the wrong relationship and so they fucking leave. Like, I will celebrate people who leave what is not good for them, who leave where they are being mistreated at any time. I don't care how long you were there. I don't care when you figured it out. If it was bad for you, get out.

Like, absolutely. And I also see exactly that thing you're saying, Hill, where there's some people who, it's almost like people like Dan, people with those sort of personality disorders, create drama and harm. So they have something to talk about and fix. A problem to solve.

Yeah. And I think it's really interesting. And, you know, obviously one of the signs of like healthy self-reflection when you're willing to take inventory and say like, am I outgrowing something or am I running from something? Am I evolving in a good way? Or do I have some crutch from my childhood or whatever? And it's like, you know, there's that, like, famous adage that when we talk about people like Dan, you know, when we talk about narcissists, a narcissist will often tell you, you're the narcissist when you start to refuse to be on the receiving end of narcissistic abuse anymore.

Yes. And, you know, it's always a therapist who's helping you cope with that, as I know we've all had to in our own ways. who says, like, if you, the patient come in here and say, wait, could I be the narcissist? No, because a narcissist will never ask if they're a narcissist. Exactly. Like, period. End of story. And so I think all of that stuff, like everything we've learned about who Dan is and how those sorts of personalities present.

And, you know, the way Paul has been able to, as such a talented actor, humanize this man who's a nightmare, makes you feel for him in that moment. And it allows Whitey to feel for him in that moment and lovingly say to him, you did this. You are being held accountable for the choices you made. You murdered your brother. So it's really not surprising that your kids don't want to hang out with you. Yeah.

You know? And it's wild to watch what a hard pill that is for Dan is. follow. Yeah. Like, so you can escape and run away, or if you're interested in redemption, there is hope for you. If you're interested in it. Yeah. If not. But you're going to have to do the work. You get to choose. Yeah. It's a big. It's a big thing. And what an interesting thing, too, like that the episode is actually so happy. You see people everywhere choosing their joy. Yeah. But this, this heavy, heavy sort of. anchor is in the middle of it.

But look at the flip side. Victoria is going through the same situation, right? And so Dan, who's apologized and apologized and apologized and apologized and apologized and apologized. I mean, it is fucking endless what the Dan Scott wants a new chapter story. Yeah. I'm bored. Bye. Victoria, on the other hand, has also been a terrible, selfish, mean, mom.

And Victoria's apology in this episode hit me totally differently because I believed it. Yeah, me too. I think she actually will do the work. You can tell that she's already done the work because she has observed and been very specific in her apologies. Yes. And that, to me, is the mark of a true apology because there's so many people that will say, well, whatever I did, I'm sorry. No, you're not. Yeah.

You just wanted to end. Yeah. And there's action behind it, behind her apology. She's very specific. Yeah, she hands over the company. That's right. That's right. And I like that you use the word observed because something I love about this last series of episodes is that we get to see.

And, you know, they don't give you a lot of quiet time on camera, especially when you're in an ensemble cast like this. There's always scenes that wind up on the cutting room floor because you've got to make the 43-minute line. Like, you know, for our friends at home, it, it. So much gets cut out. All the air sometimes gets taken out. And yet, even in these jam-packed episodes, we've gotten so many scenes where we watch Victoria observe what's happening around her. Yep.

Watching Brooke from behind. Watching Brooke with Sam. Watching Julian. She's watching and she's realizing so many things about her daughter's life that she just never knew before because she was never around. Yeah. And to see the culmination. of all that observation, be that authentic apology

where she can look at Brooke and say, now I see and I know what you need to hear. And I'm sorry I didn't say it sooner. Oh, I sobbed. I remember, I mean, genuinely sobbing on the day. I couldn't stop crying. That looked real, Bethany and I just wept together. And it made me cry today.

The feeling of it is so visceral, and it is exactly that. It's because it's a real, it's a real deep observational apology. And there's substance to it. Yeah, it requires real humility. It's not escape. It's not self-pity. It's actual humility. And I want to grow.

I want to change. And here's my attempt at action. behind it. Also, this is such a great example of Tree Hill being such a central character in the arc of all of our storylines that you look at Dan who grew up in Tree Hill and he just takes it for granted. He takes everything that he has for granite. Big fish in a small pond.

Here comes Victoria, big fish in big pond, and comes into this tiny little town and her whole heart is rearranged because of her interactions with the people that live in this town and stand on street corners and have kisses in moonlight and cars driving down the street that stop at red lights and boys coming in and out of the store and girls without parents coming in and meeting her daughter. Like there's all these just beautiful little romantic moments that have chipped away at the ice around her heart. And this moment was so satisfying for me because of that.

It may look different. but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric,

that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I think there are also some parents that struggle to connect with their children at different ages. So I know a lot of people who are really great with their kids until they hit about 12. Everybody complains about like middle school because they're like, oh, of a sudden my child's rebelling now. And I'm like, well, no, they're not. They're their own people, you know. And so it's really easy to love a.

six-year-old, super easy. And then there are some people that are like, little kids, yuck. And they wait until their kids are like 17, 18 to connect and have like a meaningful adult connection. And Victoria just might be one of those people who, until she can speak to Brooke woman to woman as an adult, she struggles with kids. Like we don't see her with kids. We don't see her with like Jamie. She's not interested in. Not a natural nurturer. She's not going to hold a baby, you know. Peyton would rather hand her baby to Dan Scott than Victoria. A hundred percent.

A hundred percent. But I loved that her performance wasn't overly emotional. That was another thing that being someone who's not a natural nurturer who wouldn't be great with kids, she's not a super emotional woman, or maybe she is and she just hides it all. But that's kind of also what made a great contrast to Dan's performance, which was super emotional, super intense that Victoria was like, I'm not going to minimize your pain and what I've done to you by making this moment about me and needing you to comfort me because I'm crying

and I feel bad about myself and I feel bad about all the things that I've done. It's like she had enough respect for Brooke to hold that in and let the moment really be about Brooke. Again, so mature, so humble, loved it. I love that she talked about the dude. that she loved. And that was the thing that, like, got her. She was like, oh, my God, I cannot let my daughter make this life-changing mistake that ruined my life. Yes. Meeting your father.

Oof. I wonder who this guy was. Was it Gregory Harrison? Do they meet later? And she's like, oh, there you are. So good. Yeah. Yeah.

Who's the guy that broke Victoria's heart? Does he ever come back? Is that a thing that they bring back later? No. I mean, you do meet my dad eventually, but I don't think, no. I bet he was like a Formula One race car driver or a painter. Maybe he was a garbage man. Well, he definitely was.

Because she says he didn't come from my circle. My parents wouldn't allow it. And I, you know, I don't know. I think that's a really profound thing. as an adult and something that I realize nobody talks to us about when we're younger. You know, it's sort of been a big part of my journey is figuring out, like, well, everybody says things. You hear these phrases, like, marriage is hard. And, you know, this is, you really got to do the work.

And like, well, okay, but how hard? Because I don't know. I've got friends. Like, we've talked a lot about this. Hillary, like, in all the years I've watched you and Jeffrey, like, you guys have done some hard work, but like, you're always having a good time. And it might seem insane, but like, it really was this aha moment for me of like, hold on, I don't think hard is supposed to be torture. Right. I'm not supposed to cry every day. Yeah, for people who are used to laying down

in the road so everybody else can walk all over them. Yeah. I was like, huh, I think like maybe sobbing at the kitchen table every night is like not the kind of hard that is sustainable. Yeah. And I think there's something so poignant about this moment between

Brooke and Victoria watching it now, like as a, you know, woman in my early 40s who has just had the wild last couple of years that I've had. It's like I wish somebody had been able to have that conversation with me in my 20s.

Like it's a conversation my mom and I are having now where it's like just because you do everything you're supposed to do and everything society tells you to do and you check every box on the list that is presented to us which is more or less the same, you know, for each of us. You're a good girl. Yeah. Like, and you do it and you're like, is this it?

Like, is my reward for doing everything right? Sobing at my fucking kitchen table every night? Like, really? And I love, I love that Victoria looks at her and says, I did what I was supposed to do. I picked the right kind of guy and I've regretted it every day. Please don't do what I did. Please go chase what makes you happy, not the piece of paper or the guy from the right social circle or, you know, pick, think of the beginning of season five, one of the Knicks.

Yeah, like, stop doing the PR and go do your life. Stop doing the PR is the thing. When she said, I don't give a shit that it's clothes over bros. That's bullshit. Yeah. You misnamed your company. You need to take care of you. And everything else will be fine.

Yeah. Like, I loved that. Yeah. I loved that. Because old Victoria would have protected that brand at all costs. Of course. And by the way, it's what we've all been cultured to do. And you realize how your work bleeds into your life.

Like, we've talked about it a lot on this show. You get told, you got to show up. If you screw it up, you're screwing it up for 200 other people. You better grin and bear it. You better do these days. You better not complain. And when you learn to be a good girl, a good soldier, of course you take that home with you.

Yeah. And the permission slip to undo that, I mean, it changed my life. And I love from this moment in me, my Sophia's life watching this scene in this episode and going, holy shit, that is even more profound than I knew it to be then. And I knew that scene was a big deal then because I couldn't stop crying like a baby all day while we shot it. You're so good. You were so shocked. You were flabbergasted to hear those words come out of her mouth. Yeah. And it was so like sweet to watch.

It was almost like you were pinching yourself. Like, is this real? Is there going to be a punchline at the end? Yeah, when she says, I am so proud of you. Like, capital S-O. Like, I, I burst into tears in the dead. I was just like, but it's like, it's a life lesson that we've applied here. Because for 10 years, I kept my mouth shut about what went on on our show. Yeah. Because I did as you would be good for the fans. I was a good girl. I towed the party line. You know what I mean? Like, I did all the things I was told to do, I fulfilled the expectations, and the second I said, fuck it, and I just started telling the truth about what really happened here, it didn't ruin it for the fans.

If anything, the love of our show and the fervor for our show has grown since we started telling the truth about what this was. And I hope that's, you know, I hope that means something to somebody out there who's going through a similar situation. If you're honest about it, if you're honest about your feelings, about the reality, the shame goes away, right? You can actually take pride in it again. I hated talking about our show for a full decade.

And now I'm like, Jeffrey, you got to watch this shit. We are adorable. I know. We have never been cuter in our whole. I'm so proud of this show because in telling the truth, I'm telling the truth. I've been able to separate the stuff I didn't like and the stuff that I love. And so hearing Victoria, like a woman on the show, be that called arms, you're right, it is more meaningful now, all these years later.

Yeah, I see things in it that I didn't see then. And I love it. I love her so much. I didn't think I could love Daphne anymore, and here we are. And it makes me love our storyline even more. more. Because it echoes the same sort of thing that you and I get to have in this episode, Hillary, when I come to see you with the baby, like, we're the love story. And I feel the same way about Daphne and about Victoria and Brooke. I'm like, now they're a love story too.

Yeah. And it's so, that's not to say our epic love stories, Peyton and Lucas and Brooke and Julian and Haley and Nathan, are less valuable at all. They're, you know, they're the wish fulfillment. But the friendships we forge, they're the things that raise us. They're the places we go home to. Like, you know, it's just a different thing. And when your best friend has a baby and you're like, oh, great, he's gone. Well, it's our baby.

This is actually our baby. We're fine. Victoria gave Brooke what she's been searching for this whole time. I mean, the whole time we've known Brooke, she's been searching for that permission to stop, to be okay with the mess. I feel like Brooke's always pushing. She's always like, the mess is okay. It's okay. We have to be messy.

But it's also like in action. It's all like trying to be perfect all the time and then falling apart and then trying to put it all together again. Yeah. And Victoria is the only person in the world who can give that to her because she's the one who created the problem in the first place with Brooke by raising her to be someone who felt the constant needs. need to perform. Yeah. And by giving her this gift of the opposite perspective that she's always been told, I'm really curious to see how that progresses for Brooke, having this now new permission, the release.

Like, it's okay. Is Brooke going to wear sweatpants now? Could you imagine? The image of Brooke Lane and Sam's bed in the bedroom that looks just like Peyton's old bedroom. Yeah. Brooke Lane in the bed with her mini skirt. and her blouse and her hair perfect

and her makeup and her heels. I was like, Brooke Davis needs to relax. Yeah, I'm like, could I just have like some house shoes? What are we doing? Does Brooke not have a robe? She is in action,

has to be perfect all the time. So yeah, I love what you're saying there, Joy. The Victoria is the only one that can break that spell. Friends, we're getting the signal from our producers that we've done a whole episode,

but we're clearly not done talking. We have a lot to discuss. And honestly, after six seasons, I think we've earned it. So let's come back in the next episode for part two. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's O-TH. Or email us at Dramaquins at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl Dreaming for the right team

You could dream a smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl You could sit with us girl Drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens It may look different but native culture is alive My name is Nicole Garcia and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges We aim to explore that culture Somewhere along the way it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first native comic bookshop.

Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.