Drama Queens - Feeling Feelings • EP317

Episode Date: September 26, 2022

The expression of art imitating life has never been so prevalent. As the characters try to move on from the difficulties in their storylines the Drama Queens recap the growing pains that were unfolding simultaneously in their own lives.  Find out what they learned about finding a new appreciation for life and recognizing the moments that help us mend. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. Smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl.

Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Hi everyone, season three, episode 17, who will survive and what will be left of them? Air date March 29th, 2006. Wow, girls, we knew we were getting into the grief of it all. The synopsis here is that everyone is emotionally dealing with the tragedy through the five stages of grief. I kind of liked that they did this, the flashes of like anger, denial. Dan has visions of a young Keith. Lucas feels it's his fault.

is dead, Nathan and Haley move back into the apartment while Brooke moves in with Peyton. Plus, we find out who released the time capsule. All I have to say is thank you so much, Joy, you and James, for providing the only happiness and levity in this fucking episode. God, it's just, yeah, it's such a sad fallout, and Nathan and Haley are so sweet. Yeah, we needed to see some, there was some healing. I mean, there was, I loved the healing at the end, which we'll get. too but I yeah we needed some in the midst of everyone else in turmoil Nathan and Haley finding that

healing in each other and the comfort in being grateful for what they have right there in their arms that was really beautiful and I loved that you know when when we're experiencing that scene where they're in bed after Keith's funeral at the cemetery and then everyone's on the way to Karen's. I loved that to all the questions that have been plaguing them for this whole season, he's so quick to answer. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. And he said, he explains how it was all clarified for him in that awful moment. Yeah. And it's such a universally true human thing that when you are in a moment of strife or struggle or sadness or whatever, when something seismic happens, it recalibrates everything.

And it puts things in perspective in such a clear way. And it turns your boogeyman into like individual little problems. And you realize how small everything is. And I loved that there was someone in our story who was able to have that silver lining moment out of the worst, hardest episode. Yeah. I mean, they were in the room with just. Me. Yeah. I mean, it's not like these are people on the exterior. Yeah. Haley and Nathan were in the room.

I'm glad you said that, Sophia, because there was a part of me as grateful as I was to see that. I was also a little bit like, is it kind of insensitive? Is it? Are we missing something here? But, you know, everybody does deal with grief in different ways and the fact that someone could find healing out of a place of grief. It is human and it's okay. Yeah. I will say, it's funny, I didn't think I would, I mean, not funny, it's odd. I didn't think I would share this in it. And I thought about it a lot last week when we watched the shooting episode.

But I remember going through a loss in my family. And it was a loss because of an incidence of gun violence. and our family was in different states when it happened and everyone spent all day on the phone, just all the family calling everybody. I mean, hours of just like tears and sobbing. And I mean, it's fucking tragedy. Yeah. And I had plans that night with two friends.

And I said, I'm not going. I'm not, there's no way. And, you know, it was 10 o'clock at night or whatever. In L.A., there was no getting to another state. there was no flying anywhere and my friends came over here and we're like put your fucking dress on there is nothing you can do and we are not going to let you sit in this house and cry all night and my friends it's so crazy my friends took me dancing yeah and they were like you are going to celebrate we are going to celebrate harder tonight than we have

celebrated in recent memory because we better be grateful that we can and I remember this like moment. It felt like a movie where I almost felt like everything went into slow motion and I was on the dance floor and I was looking at one of my girlfriends and we looked over at her boyfriend and we were all just like sweating and laughing and I started crying and it was like if you do not take the incredible gift of being alive on this planet in this moment and like get every ounce of gorgeousness out of it. What are we doing here? Yeah. And And I really feel like Nathan and Haley in this episode were the reminder of that. You guys were the ones that were like, yes, feel your grief, feel your feelings, do the sadness, the depression, the anger, the denial, all of it.

Every one of those title cards that we got in every act. But you better, you better take advantage of being alive and being in love for the ones who can't. Soak it up. Soke it up. It's so inspiring. They're the entry point for it. And then it grows into this party that involves the whole school. And you guys know, I mean, how many people have died in my world in the last year?

You know, it has been a relentless marathon of loss. And I think if I had seen this episode as a younger person, I would have had that gut check that you had joy of like, ooh, insensitive. Is this cringy? I don't know if this is cringy. And as an adult, I agree wholeheartedly with. you guys if you guys aren't pleasure monsters out there and you're not out like actively searching for fun and joy and interaction and peace and like all of that the most fulfilling the most fulfilling life you could possibly yeah go nuts just go nuts yeah don't worry about tacky

go out party honestly well i love that about the that's it that's the high school part that's the party in the hallway is the tacky element it's like and the fact that honestly sophia it's so inspiring that your friends would show up at your house in that moment and be willing to risk you being like how disgusted how dare you how dare you not honor my grief right now they were willing to risk that scary moment in order to take the chance to give you what what they thought you really needed which turned out to be the thing that you needed oh and you know what it taught me it taught me that like the vacuum that your grief can create the chasm that a loss can open has to be filled with something and it's balance if you spend all day doing this spend all night doing

that whatever it is and i love that they gave rachel that moment to say who are you to judge how people heal everyone's together people need this go in any room here and have any experience you want but people need to be together and that's what it is for people to say i don't know if this is what you need but what i do know is that i'm going to come hold you what i do know is that you've been you've been sadness and I'm going to pour joy into you. I'm going to pour love into you. And it's like, it's not perfect. And yeah, you're right, Hill. It might be like all these kids in the high school might be tacky, but they're together. Yeah. And that's worth something. They're doing it. They're just taking the risk and jumping. It's like, just take the leap. Yeah, give me tacky.

That's no reason to hold back. No, no. I, you know, this episode was really difficult to watch because the subject matter is so serious and I do think they were like really shining elements to this episode you know those interactions in particular the Nathan and Haley of it all the Brooke throwing the party seemingly

like teamed up with Rachel and mouth you know like that trifecta is great those that has been a love triangle of its own for the last few episodes and so to see everybody together felt really really nice there was some stuff you know

that is still, like, weird. Like, the Pete Wentz of it all. The Pete went some of it all. Oh, yeah, the Pete went. And also just kind of like, we didn't talk about it in the last episode, but I hated so much of Peyton's dialogue when we were in the library,

but because the subject matter was so serious, it was just like, don't ask questions, just go, go, go, go, go. And I like that we got to resolve that in this episode by Lucas giving Peyton shit in the library. That was helpful for me. That was really helpful. It was like, can we make fun of this now?

We're going to make fun of this? Thank you. I also loved at the end of that conversation. You could not get out of there fast enough. It was so funny. Like, once you guys had resolved, it was like, yeah, okay, we're good. So we're good. Okay, goodbye.

It felt really real, though. It did. That's what I loved about it. I remember this episode. Do you guys remember filming this one? Of all the ones we've watched in the recent, you know, recent times, recent months, I have like physical memories of this. Me too. Why is that?

We were traumatized. That's why. Must have been. Well, and I, and we were saying it when we watched it, but that scene hill of you and I on Peyton's porch at the end. Oh, my God. I mean, visceral. And what I loved is, you know, when we were doing it and you were jumping on my back. Like that, that just happened. You were like, don't fall. Because you didn't want me to drop us both on our faces. Well, okay, because, so this episode was really, the last few episodes, it's just like hard stuff.

And almost like life-imitating art, when Sophia and I shot that scene on Peyton's front porch, where it had been awkward between Brooke and Peyton. And like, it was weird and everything felt segmented and we're trying to put everything back together. We shot that at like 4 o'clock in the morning. And it had a crazy long day. And I'd been drinking before we shot that scene and while we were shooting that scene. And so when Brooke came up and Peyton's just like,

Baby, you're here. Oh, my God. I was so happy. Like, I was legitimately happy to see Sophia because I didn't get to see her the whole last episode. And then when she's just like, I'm sorry. And Peyton's like, it doesn't matter. I don't know.

It just felt real. That celebratory thing that the kids are doing in the school, of just trying to cope and get through the moment is, I think, what I was trying to do. Because we also know season three is when things started to go really sideways behind the scenes. And so it just, I don't know, the life and art crossing over in this episode was very strong for me. I'm not going to speak for anybody else. But I felt it. I felt all those visceral mat.

Maybe it's also because we were dealing with such sort of like esoteric top. It was like big topics. It was beyond just. just like boys and girls and hurt feelings and, you know, all of the, oh, the dastardly villains. And, I mean, this was really, we're dealing with life issues. What do you do with the concept of justice? What do you do with the concept of life after death or death being the end or, you know, soaking up what you have now?

Where do souls go? What the justice of it all was a major theme in this whole thing. What does Lucas do? You know, he demands justice as he shows. And yet there's a part of him that's hugely made up of compassion. Where do you put that? It's so hard to compartmentalize all these things. And yeah, I mean, I don't know, maybe for me, because we were juggling so many big, deep issues, maybe that's why I just remember these scenes, like filming these scenes more because it was, it's more deeply rooted into my soul than a lot

of the other material that we did. Well, what do you remember? Because it was cold as hell. see Sophia in my breath outside. You can see, like, when they're out on the quad, you can see everybody's breath. And then you're in sprinklers with your shoes off. They always put us in rain and cold. Why? I remember that football field. I'm like, why could it never rain when it was hot out? Literally ever had shot a hurricane in the summertime? Hello? Please, for God's sake. No, that was some football field they sent us out on and, um, I, somebody lost a bet that night. I don't, because I know, Sophia, they used to bet on between you and I who was going to get to set last. and but this night was there was some bet because it was obviously just me and james

james is always like the first to set before everybody and uh you never leave set i know but i stopped it crafty i guess because on my way back i i yeah i stopped it crafty to get a cup of tea and that's why i remember it was cold and i remember being out there um and i remember stopping for my cup of tea on the way in and i heard lasseter one of our p's on her walking she's like she stopped to crafty she stopped for tea over you know and everybody somebody was like yes i won you know there's just dumb dumb shit like that i don't know why i remember and then going out on that field and getting wet you know and then i remember being in bed i remember having those scenes i remembered the feeling of james coming up behind me when i was um you know i had no my makeup was off

and i was like can you unzip me um in the beginning yeah yeah in the very beginning just like these comfort moments, I guess. Yeah. I don't know. Sophia, do you have a visceral memory of this episode at all? Yeah. She remembers those cute little kicky boots

she had on that little outfit. I know, and your Barbarella hairstyle. Oh, my God, right? I did feel like Barbarella at that party, which was also weird. But I loved, like, I just love, I love looking back at some of the early Brooke moments because I remember, you know,

the earnestness of wanting. to get it right as an actor and also for her thinking like you know she's trying to do this thing and throw this party and you know brook would probably normally wear like some bright sparkly dress and she's going to be brook at a party but she's going to wear black you know like the attempts at at teenage balance um and yeah i remember i remember coming to the porch that night at Peyton's house. Yeah. I remember that conversation.

I remember that sort of visceral feeling of having to be vulnerable in a way you don't want to be, but it's your best friend and you have to be. You know, and me having to cry and you, you being in like such a joyful mood and like being a little tipsy and laughing. And like it was also, it was all just very genuine and honest. And I do think it's because we were dealing with these big questions. And to your point, Hillary, things were going sideways for so many of us behind the scenes at this point. And it was a real moment where as young women, we all experienced in our own ways a simultaneous loss of innocence.

Yeah. Like big things that we considered to be true, broke for all of us. Oof, ain't that the truth. And they were breaking for these characters. and it like gave us a place to put it but we didn't know where to put our feelings really so no i just remember how it like the feeling i have now is that it was sensational and i don't mean amazing and i don't i mean like the sensations of all of it were so heightened and um and i will say the thing that i'd forgotten but that hit me like a ton of bricks was when we ran up into peyton's

room. He's building the shelves. And I was like, oh, my God, that's where they came from. I love that dude so much. Building the shelves. That's sweet. You're dead on, man. That was, yeah, because I had just gotten married.

And it was a disaster right away. Yeah. And I was. You don't say. And I was such a wreck in my personal life. I mean, it was really a disaster. And the only place I found solace is. in that time was at work. I would come to work and I was, maybe that's another reason why

these scenes started feeling so visceral, these episodes that we're watching now, especially this one, is that it's, yeah, these ideals, these themes, these big things that we had planned and thought of in our lives all of a sudden came crashing down in all different spaces all at once. And all we really had was each other. And we didn't even know how to take advantage to that. No. That's what I'm realizing in this moment as you say that, Joy, is that we were all having these really parallel experiences and we were so scared to admit we'd messed up. Oh, girls.

Like the three of us went through such perfectionist phases. We were so scared to admit that we'd picked the wrong people, that the relationships weren't healthy. We trusted the wrong people. That we trusted the wrong people and the people who we thought were our mentors. were taking advantage of us. Like, there was so much going on. And I think it's part of the reason that the relationships feel so true in season three

because it was the only place we had catharsis. Because think about how many more years it took us you guys to tell each other the truth to be like, oh my God, I was really having a hard time. Oh, my God, I was struggling here. Oh, my God, this is when I knew that this was bad. This is when I knew I had to get out. This is when I knew I needed help.

Whatever it was. it took us like three more years. So we went through this chasm where we were, it was like our scenes were our therapy almost, I'm realizing. Well, it was practice. Holy hell. It feels like practice.

I've never thought about that before. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to be coming, a television writer because it does feel oddly like very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric that this is something we've been doing for a hundred years. You carry with you

a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first native of Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know, I don't know about you guys, but by the time we shot this episode, we're like, what,

six months into our shooting season. We probably shot this in January or February. We usually start in like August, late July. And the subject matter of this season, it's like Haley's had to grovel the whole time. It's just finally like getting some comfort. Brooke has gone through it with Lucas, like, don't you do it, don't you break my heart, you know,

don't make me cry again. We're all crying about shit. Peyton, dead moms, you name it. She gets shot. all the things. I was exhausted. Yes. And the scene with Brooke resonates so much with me. And then the scene with you two in the apartment resonated so much because it just felt like a release. Like having a couple drinks and then just like loving on someone and being like, God, it's just good to be with you.

Felt so nice and real and that blurriness between, like, what is Sophia and Hillary and what is Brooke and Payton? What is Brooke and Haley and what is Sophia and Joy? Like, that blurriness, I think, is what kept it alive for me. You know, we had, like you said, we had three more years of doing this. And we had been acting our relationships out on screen. But this is when it started to feel really. like, I don't want to say confusing, but it was confusing because it was like real.

It was like, well, I know Sophia's not going to like, like grab my boop. Do you know what I mean? Like, there are certain like safety nets you have with the other women at work. And so I knew that if we were just together, we were okay. We were going to be okay. And there's also something I think to that point of how tired we were. the material was exhausting and that loss of innocence was exhausting. And we didn't necessarily have the wherewithal or the energy to then commune about how exhausting it was.

Like we were in survival mode. So the way we were able to commune with each other sometimes was in those scenes. It felt so honest. And I could see you, but you didn't have to say it. And you could see me and I didn't have to say it, but we'd see it. And it was just, it was like enough soul fuel to keep us all going. Well, this was so scary because they killed Craig. Like if they could kill Craig off, none of us were safe, you know?

That was a very jarring moment. Yeah. This is really where it's like, man, actors are f***ed up because this is the kind of thing that, Like, in normal life, you would have adults around you who would be like, honey, you need to go talk to a therapist. Honey, you need to go find your girlfriends and get your best ones together and go have a cocktail and just let it all out. But instead, we were bottling everything up and using our work to feel our emotions and

have a relationship with each other. That's so messed up, you guys. Yeah, we did it for you guys. Congratulations. It was all for you. Well, think about how many times though We'd have moments where it would start Because you're right, Joy

In any normal world Someone would have gone Hi, sweet girl, I think you're in an abusive relationship Yeah Hi sweet girl, I think this dynamic is toxic Hi, your boss is a sexual predator Like nobody was doing that for us And ding dong

Hey knock knock out, I have some information for you And the people who were the perpetrators were like, this is great fuel for your acting. So, I don't know. It's like, yeah, of course we're all fucking nuts. Can you imagine if the SAG representative had,

like, guys, we have a union rep for Screen Actors Guild, the SAG rep? Can you imagine if the SAG rep had come to set like, hey, sweet girl, you're in a toxic situation? We wouldn't like, get the fuck out of here. Who are you? We were like a group of feral cats. But I don't know.

I think it's so. it is so interesting and joy i remember i don't know if you remember this a couple years ago you and i were having to talk about some of these parallels we were experiencing at the time and we both were like isn't it like do you feel like emotionally you're 10 years younger than you are and you were like yeah and i remember us being like we're 30 but i think we're really 20 because for all of our 20s they trapped us yeah we missed out i totally missed out of my 20s i'm like the youngest 40 year old I know. A hundred percent.

It's tied to you. Besides you guys. But like we in a way are emotionally 10 years younger than our age because we were frozen in this weird high school time capsule. And it was only after we got out of it. Cryogenic. We started like doing the growth for all those years that we had put on hold because we were told and we cared.

It was like, well, I can't screw this up. I can't bring my personal life anywhere with me. I have to do the job. I want to let the fans down. I want the fans to love this. I want, we had all this thing for each other, for our crew, for our audience. And, man, I remember when we all started going to therapy and we were like, shit, we have a lot to talk about.

Yeah. It's a lot to fix it. Somebody give me a toolkit quick. Wow, it seems as though I have to run you through a very large set of chapters. Well, you know what that's the worst part about finding a therapist is that you have there so much to lug in there and like open. up all these suitcases every single time you just bring them a box set you just need to like bring them a box set joy do you have a DVD player can I hook you out sign the DVD that has

your face on it like we've always have can you imagine being a therapist and having an actor as your patient just like guys I can't I can't it's too much um there's there's speaking of therapy there's some serious mommy issues in this episode um um because Because Lucas, probably more than ever, like, needs his mother. You know, he's taking ownership of this awful thing that's happened. As kids do, right? If your parents get divorced, if something bad happens at home, if you fail in some capacity, it's all on you when you're a teenager.

And Lucas is blaming himself for Keith running into that building. And it hit me like a ton of bricks that rather than be like, Lucas, what are you talking about? You know, exactly what Haley says to him. Karen's like, yeah, yeah, this is on you, kid. I mean, that was bananas. That was wild. Do you think it was realistic?

Well, here's what I will say. What I noticed watching it back that I didn't catch when we did it is that she snaps when she finds out that first he ran into the fire to get damned. And, like, literally he ran into a burn. building, he could have died. Yeah. And then he ran into a metaphorically burning building again. Yeah, it feels more like she was using that as a tool to.

Yeah, I thought what Moira did beautifully and in the hands of someone who isn't as thoughtful and communicative as her, it might have failed. What I caught this time when she was yelling at him about being selfish is I could have lost you I could have lost you I lost Keith I can't I can't lose I just have

the losing has to stop and it was brutal and by the way because drama like that's how we get TV series drama like a mom would do that but she made it work

moms are tricky creatures man you're you know what as soon as I said it I was like that's trope that's not true they're just as tricky as everyone else moms are worse we're all nuts

It would be hard to see a mom do that, but Moira did something with it that I caught this time that I hadn't caught before that I thought was beautiful. That is so tough. It's so hard to be in a situation where it's truly you or your child. And I agree with you. I think it was necessary in a way that he needed that wake-up call, that he was, you know, oh i don't know like you know you if you're a heroic person if that's built into you there are people who run into burning buildings and that's their makeup that's who they are yeah but they usually do it with like gear and oxygen masks on you know yeah and i and i feel like that's kind

of a mother's point right it's like it is a little bit of a it's a tv heroism it's like oh you think you can just run in there you're not thinking about the reality and it feels to me like Like she's so broken by the reality of it. And she wants him to have a dose of reality. And as often happens in moments of extreme trauma or stress, it all comes out sideways. Like it gets dumped on him in a way that is heartbreaking. That was awful to watch. Oh, awful.

But like you see why the writers did it, right? Sometimes I think when I see something that makes me so uncomfortable, I'm like, why did the writers do that? I have to find some logic, otherwise I'm going to throw up from the stress. Well, it's like when your kids little and they run out in the street and you've got to have a big reaction, right? Yeah. If you're just like, baby, don't do that. They'll do it again.

But if you're like, don't you ever, you know? And so it was almost like a reaction to a toddler, right? Where they don't understand words yet. They understand energy. And so her energy has to frighten him. So he stops this pattern of heroism. But the thing that's missing here is that in, you know, in my experience, in kind of parenting, you've got good cop and bad cop, you know. I'm always bad cop.

My husband's always good cop. That's how it's always going to be. And Keith was historically good cop. Good cop. Yeah. And good cop's gone. to talk bad cop off the ledge. Do you know, like, if that makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah, it does. I have to be both. I have to be good cop and got bad cop at the same time. I don't waste it on anybody, baby. But, you know, we had, I won't go into too many details, but we had a death of a family pet that was very dear and beloved, and it was not a natural death.

And in my estimation, in the moment, it was my daughter's fault. Oh, no. And she, you know, in the moment, looks up to me over our dying animal and stares at me in the eyes with giant tears in her eyes. And she says, is this my fault? And I'm looking at her and everything inside of me wants to scream. Yes, yes, this is, of course this is your fault. And it was like, you are faced with this. these moments and I'm sure you've had some as well, Hillary, in your life where you're faced

with these moments of like, I am going to, I am going to, this will stay with her forever if my answer is yes. The answer is no, it's not your fault. And then later we can talk about once the grieving is over and life is a little bit back to normal, we can have conversations about responsibility and you know her own conscience will do its work i don't need to jump on the bandwagon but it was like everything stopped i you everything slowed down time froze and i was like i have to make this impossible choice because this was a deep deep deep loss to me and i i have to put myself and my need for vengeance and justice aside and do what is best for her right now and it was one of the hardest things I've had to do in a split second. It was really hard. But I felt that when I was

watching Karen. And I agree with you that she was using that as a tool that he needed in that moment. But it is. It's so hard to watch. It's so hard as a mom. You got to get to make those calls sometimes. You saying that thing about good cop being gone also made me flashback to her breaking down picking up the adoption paperwork at Keith's apartment because in a way she realizes like

this was my best guy this is my good person and that's where she loses it and I in a way now hearing you say that makes me think that that was probably part of what was resonating for Moira in her backstory

of it's because Because this, missing this is why I screamed at my kid. Missing this is why I did it wrong. And, oh, God, that guts me. Yeah. Well, and also, there's a part of me that just loves that, like, once Lucas is not in his mother's good graces anymore, he's like, yeah, Brooke, sleep in my bed. This is going to be awesome.

No rules anymore. You know, like. Jeez. Do you know what I mean? Like, teenagers are so messy, and that's, I guess we did that better than anybody. We're like, let's just, we're like pig pens. We're just going to make the biggest mess possible. Can you imagine if Karen had come into his room after just, like, reading him the riot act and find Brooke in his room?

Have you guys been drinking at a party? What are you? She would have given up. I think she would have just walked out like I give up. Yeah, that's it. I didn't have the energy. She's like, I'm moving to Delaware. I'm done with you.

Get out. Whitey's story was really sad. Oh, thank you for bringing that up. Oh, my gosh. That broke my heart. It was gorgeous. And Barry walking in with the mug from his desk. And Lucas thinks he's in so much trouble.

And then Whitey just pours himself beer out of the keg. Gorgeous. I'm not here. I'm not even here. Oh, that was so, that was another moment of levity that we needed. I loved that. And Lucas needed that. It's life.

Look, you have to do, do. What did he say? It was something about honoring who, Keith. Did you write it down? Yeah, I wrote it down. He said, I know who Keith was. He said, be the man Keith taught you to be. Anything less will make this a much greater tragedy than it already is.

Yes. So he puts on the suit and goes to Jimmy's funeral. It's what Keith would have wanted. Whoa. That's intense. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional.

It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Antoine did such a good job of carrying the emotional load of having that talk with Lucas because really everyone else in Lucas's life is kind of I don't know transferring their own feelings like Brooke is like I'm insecure about this you know and Peyton's like I love you I don't love you I don't care anything Anyway, moving on.

Yeah, and mouth is holding on to it just internally. Karen's flipping the fuck out on him. Whitey's talking about his dead wife. Nathan and Haley are like, we're here for you, but we're also like bonding and like doing our own thing. And so there's all this transference. And the person that comes in and is just really steady with Lucas and rational and is listening is skills. And those Rivercourt boys were my favorite part of this episode, you know, like seeing them all in the car together, seeing that childhood bond. Oh, I loved that.

You guys, that is the thing that made me choke up because my son and his friends, like, you watch these kids grow up. You know, Jimmy Edwards' mom standing there surrounding by these boys. Oh, it got me. It really did. Gus has gone to school with the same kids since preschool. And I'm watching them all, like, kind of change now. And, like, some of them are jocks. And some of them are theater nerds.

And some of them are just, like, totally weird. And some of them are really into TikTok. And, you know, like, they're all different people. And the idea of them all being, like, 16, 17 years old and showing up in such a responsible way. It's, yeah. That kind of forgiveness is amazing. It was beautiful. And there was really something, too, I need a parachute out of this emotion, so I'm

going to get technical for a second. Get tech. There were some really weird choices in this episode, like the split screens felt really like 80s soap opera. It was like, what is happening? Whose show is this? What are we doing? And then the end, when Lucas says to Karen, it's what Keith would have wanted.

And the next shot is that slow. pan up Keith's car and that beautiful pullback to reveal all the boys and all those boys were really in the moment you could see the thoughts on their faces they're not saying anything but it's so honest and then the slow mo the like reservoir dog shot of them all in suits walking up the hill I was like that's what our show does well it was they had gone a little too far in trying to communicate some things and then and then they just let watching people feel feelings be the device yes and there was something so metaphorically beautiful about like them being in his car like Keith is the reason they went he carried them to jimmy's mom like oh god watching people

feel feelings can we just put that as the synopsis of our show forever like that But when we try to do more, it's gimmicky and weird. But watching people feel feelings, that's literally it. That's the good part of the show. Yeah. Yeah. How about Dan in the cemetery? That was really interesting to me.

I thought he did a really nice job with that. But it was just such a – I don't know. It was interesting to watch somebody continue to double down. I mean, once you make choices that far like that, there's just no other, I don't know how you get out of it. I don't know how you climb out of that. We've just watched him in a steady decline into hell, madness. I will say, that's also got to be pretty wild as an actor.

You're three years into your show. You know your character. And then you get a script and you're like freaking out in a cemetery, yelling at ghosts. oh okay and Paul committed like he just was like alright you want to see me do it watch me I'm gonna do it watch me and he really like he looked manic and his eyes and it was like a it was a side of him that we hadn't seen and I I love when you see somebody really commit it's refreshing something's got to happen to you after you kill someone oh I can't even you guys you know what I mean We were just talking about this before the episode started, like all this stuff that I'm covering for the Sundance series that I do, which is all about awful shit, murderers, you know, people who put innocent people in jail.

Like the worst things you can do as a human. And when we shot this show, I thought it was so far-fetched. I was just like, guys, this does not happen. And I'm literally making a TV show right now about this happening everywhere. And when people do something awful, they double down. It is so rare for someone to admit, I may as human nature. The double down is so scary to me because I just didn't think that was the human default. And it is.

Yeah. And you'll see, like, people that we trust, you know, like judges, prosecutors, cops, like all these people that we should be trusting. preachers, oh my God, so many preachers this year. So a Dan Scott in a small town is just another Tuesday. Not far-fetched at all? Yeah. That's what I was going to say when you were saying that. I was like, and how crazy is it when you see it on like a grand scale?

Like a politician does something insane. An act of war happens. And they double down. Double down's weird. Like we're watching it happen in Ukraine. Yeah. Everyone in the world is like, what, what is Russia doing? And they just keep going.

And you're like, okay, so you all want to double down so hard that we're, like, people are fighting with bombs around nuclear reactors? Nobody, nobody's going to say maybe this was a bad idea because it starts with, that's it? The small stuff. It starts with the small stuff. All the things that we normally do. I do it, you do it. We all do it.

We all do the double down. We all do the, we feel the moment of threat. and it's like, it takes a lot of courage and intentionality and humility to stop yourself in your tracks and say, shit, I'm messed up. I don't want to continue down this road. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to you and you and you. I'm turning around. I'm going the other direction. That is, that is, what's the word I'm looking for? It's subhuman. It's like, that's beyond what we are, you know, naturally inclined to do. And so, yeah, it starts in all the small moments, for sure. Yeah, it is wild to watch that.

And, you know, talking Hill to you about your documentary show and these cases, it's given me that same feeling watching our show back. Like, watching the Dan Scott of it all. There's Dan Scott's everywhere. They're everywhere. Yeah. Isn't that so scary to figure out as a grown-up? As a kid, I would have never. bought it. And as a grown-up, it's just like, yeah. Well, it's one of the things that makes it

easy to get taken advantage of when you're young, because you don't want to live life. You don't want to walk around looking at the world with cynicism and assuming that people are going to take advantage of you. And it's hard. That's one of the big hard lessons in life is that there are a lot of Dan Scots in the world. There are a lot of people who are totally willing, more than willing, to take advantage of you if you don't see it. If they, if you, if you, if you, if you, let them. So it's really, that's been a hard balance for me and I don't know what you guys's journey has been through. I mean, I don't know a little bit, but it's hard to, to, how do I, how do I go through life, continuing to believe the best about people and yet be wise enough

to recognize and discern when someone is not out for my best interests when they're just really looking out for themselves. Well, that's why, so Joy, remember years ago when we started talking about getting tattoos on our feet. that's why when after my particularly shitty season three year, I got, and my tattoos are white because I just can't sit in the makeup chair and give them. You're like, I'm not going to cover them. I'm like, I refuse. I know they're there.

I can see them. Do you know what I do for a living? It is so horrible. But that's why in that, like in the philosophies of, you know, Eastern tradition that teaches you about balance, walking the middle path. my literal goal after having been a blindsided optimist and now I think I would after being battle tested I'd probably call myself a battered optimist but I want to hold on to it really bad. That's why I put two of the principles of that balance, compassion and wisdom on the insides

of my feet and they touch every day. The idea that you have to be wise enough to not let your heart be taken advantage of but have a compassionate heart that isn't so wise that it's cynical. Yeah. And that... What is that verse that...

Wise as a serpent, innocent as a dove, right? I still don't know. I still don't know. I put that ink in my feet. It was the worst pain I've ever been in my life. Oh, God.

You know, 17 years ago or whatever that was. And it's still, I ask myself that question all the time. Because you don't want to be suspicious. No. Then you go through a betrayal from a partner or from someone who you called a best friend. And you go, oh, you used me as a stepping stone or, oh, you used me to bolster your reputation or, oh, whatever it is.

Yeah. And you go, fuck. I don't want to think everybody's as bad as you. But if somebody I loved as much as you could be this bad. Well, mouth is living that in this moment, right? We have loved the mouth and Rachel trajectory. right? And if you want to talk about bad guys doubling down, Rachel's doing the exact opposite of that. Rachel is saying, hey, she does it. I messed up. She owns it. Yeah, she owns it. That was a

really interesting scene. You guys want to, you want to cruise through that one, which starts off with Danielle's midrift? For so long. They just held her cute stomach in the shot over Lee's face. Yeah, that was stuff going on behind the scenes. And again, to our exhaustion, you know, it felt like every episode, things were escalating behind the scenes in a way that was really hard. And to watch it back now, I remember just Daniel always kind of being an object, which was really frustrating because she was carrying emotional weight in this episode. She's, like, there with Brooke. She's confessing to mouth. She had, like, hard work to do.

And we start on. She's quite capable as well. I mean, she's handling it well. If they'd spent more time on her eyes and paying attention to what she was actually thinking, because DeNeil is someone who's always thinking. Yeah. Which, as an actress, is so interesting to watch. And if they had spent any time really allowing her, just settling and allowing her to just think, and you would be fascinated.

But she still carries it. She still carries so much of this emotion really well. And I love that you called that. She did. She did the opposite of the double down. She let it out because she didn't want to turn into the kind of person that just continues to find excuses for why she deserves to do what she wants. Yeah. I love that.

What'd you think about mouth is speech? Mouth is, would you think about mouth his speech? What'd you think about mouths? Lee Norris is the unsung hero of the last two episodes in a way because he's carrying so much silently. He had not many lines. I mean, he did have a little speech, but most of the time when the camera was on him, it was just pushing in on him feeling or watching someone feel their feelings. That's just so complicated. My God. How do you wrestle through that? And the way that he carried the emotions that so many of us were feeling as audience members of loving this

character and then watching a beloved character kill another, well, he didn't, but everybody thinks that he did. But watching a beloved character be seen in a misunderstood light, help me. I'm struggling. You know what I'm going to say? The whole world thinks that Jimmy Edwards killed Keith, you know? And so that's the reality in their world, even though it's not true. To know that someone you love died, but to have them die dishonorably is really difficult.

To have them be stolen from you. Yeah. You know, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a theft. Yeah. Someone being murdered is a theft from your life. Someone dying in an accident feels, feels like a theft from your life. and those Rivercourt boys especially are carrying so much and I loved that Skills was a voice of reason saying he was sick

you know if what he didn't say was if our friend did this he was sick but it was communicated on Antoine's face and in the way he spoke saying he was sick and that scene between skills and Lucas yeah it was the first moment where you saw them wrestling with we loved this person and this person we loved did something hateful as they know currently as they believe that yeah yeah the person who we love did something we hate and how do we how do we reconcile that and that's a profound question that many of us have to ask, you know, living in the world. That's hard for grown-ups to ask, let alone 16-year-old boys, you know.

They don't have the tools. I like that Skills was the voice of reason for that. And mouth. And you can see the parents in the room, you know, the actress who played Jimmy's mom was a very good actress. She didn't get dialogue. and she is someone who was a character actress in the Wilmington area for a really long time. Yeah, she was wonderful.

I don't know. It's just such a heavy subject matter. There's a part of me that's just like, okay, let's like get past. I feel that kind of immature energy of let's get past it. And the thing that pulled me out of it in this episode, you know what I'm going to say. In the scene where Rachel and, no, where Haley and Nathan are slowdown. in the hallway, it pulls out and I see my fucking brother making out with some chick as a background extra.

And we're sitting there watching this like beautiful scene between Joy and James and they're just like saying all the things that we need to hear. And all I see is my brother with mutton chops, suck and face with some chick. Like that was a full mac. It was a real makeout. They were like macing. It was just as a proper snog. Sting.

Don't make TV with your family members. It's gross. It's just gross. You know what? I feel like that was probably payback for him having to see me like make out with Greenberg and Chad and James. Every boy on the show. Who else did I get? Oh yeah.

You had a P. Went's makeout in this episode, although he obviously wasn't there. Invisibly. Deeply inappropriate. But also like what a sweet dude. And Larry just references it. It's just like, you know, he's, he shouldn't be picking up my teenage daughter, but have fun in that limo.

Like, what? What? Yeah. She got shot. I need to ask him, I need to ask him so many questions about this. You know, Pete is in like an overlapping circle with like some of my closest friends. So there's many a game night or like a football game that I see him at our mutual friends house. He's so lovely.

his sweet wife is so lovely. Like, they're just so great. And I'm like, man, next time I see him, I got to be like, did you feel like a creep? Was it weird? No, because you know the record label was like, this is going to be awesome. And it's going to like. So cool for the band, man. Yeah.

Cool, cool, cool. Well, and we are all actually the same age. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I don't think anybody clocked it at the time because we are all the same age. Yeah. We needed that time, job. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture.

It was a huge honor to become a television writer, because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls, became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con

or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Abbey wants to know if the writers regret, if we think the writers regretted killing off Keith because they never stopped bringing him up the rest of the series.

I mean, uh, yeah, I guess I bet they did. I'm not sure. I don't remember exactly why they. It was all money. It was just money, money, money, control, control. You know, he was one of the highest paid actors on the show when we signed on to do the pilot because he was a known entity. And if you notice, all of a sudden, the grownups start dropping like flies or disappearing because that money is not being redistributed. But it's just being spent differently. And so they made a, you know, a financial decision. Well, and look, I mean, executive decision. You know, for many of us, like, this was our first job. They didn't have to pay us much. No. And

having a bunch of younger actors who were making low wages in our industry versus a bunch of older actors with like quotes and credits who were being paid what they were worth, you know, the less money they could pay to those actors, the more money the producers and people

could keep for themselves. Well, and the whole mythology, too. Remember that our, okay, so the networks we were on, WB and CW were just like, we're young kids. We're young. You know, we're young adults. It was the young adult channel. All the other networks had sitcoms that catered towards adults.

We were young adult, young adult. And so with the CW, with like them changing their whole deal in the last month, did you see that data that got tweeted out that the average age of a CW viewer is 58 years old? It was like, it was like 56 or 58 years old. And everyone on social media was like, that's crazy. And we're sitting here watching these episodes back And I'm like, it's not crazy at all? Do you know how much comfort I find as a woman in the 40s?

The nostalgia. Watching teenagers. It's the whole thing. It's nostalgia TV. And you know what I will say? Something else that's interesting. And I feel like this is out in the world right now, too. There's some things happening in a television landscape.

And people are talking about how a lot of studios and a lot of very powerful producers like to treat their actors like they are expensive. Oh, yes. I know what you're talking about. And some of them said it as like a policy where they're like, I want the actors to know they're expendable. And then what happens is you try to make one of them the scapegoat like our bosses did with Craig.

They said, well, we're going to kill off Craig Sheffer and that'll scare the rest of the actors. You know what happens? The fans never stopped talking about the actor who they made expendable. So then they can never stop talking about the actor who they made expendable. Yeah. And they learn their lesson. It is a nice slice of humble pie for people who, you know, treat people like product instead of like people. So I think, you know, yeah, I think they regretted it.

I think they had to eat it every day for the next six years. Here's your slice of Uncle Keith pie. Yeah. And as one of the three people on this show who missed Craig dearly, I'm thrilled that you guys helped us make them eat it every single damn day. Oh, thank you. Thank you, guys. Thank you to our wonderful fans. Are we going to spend a wheel?

Spin the wheel. Most likely to. To eat something off the ground? Eat something off the ground. Probably me. Shut up. Depends on what the ground is. I mean, yeah, it depends on what the ground is, but I'm a pretty big proponent of a five-second rule.

I'm like, listen, dirt is good for your immune system. I don't know what you want. for me. I'm kind of the same. As long as the food, as long as the something in question isn't soggy. Or has dog hair on it?

Because I can't handle, if there's, if it falls in something's on it. My gag reflex is so bad. We can't even talk about this. I just like, look, I've dropped like, I don't know, just as long as it's not soggy. Like, no, I'm not going to eat ice cream off the ground.

But Sophia's most Thanksgiving roast is now suspicious. I don't know. So yuck. Wait, but what character do we think is the one? I think that's probably something they would have made junk do, and Colin would have made it so funny. That's a good call. Oh, yeah.

Like, he would have really gotten into it in a way that nobody else would and made it real, real funny. I love it. I'm down for that. I love it. All right, you guys, what is happening next episode? It's episode 18 when it isn't like it should be. That doesn't sound hopeful. That sounds depressing too.

I think we're going to be sad for a while, you guys. All right. It's a good thing we have fun with each other. It's true. Get ready for more. Hillary, give us some cocktail recipe from MF libations. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, we need a cocktail.

Okay. I'll come with a drink next week, you guys. We're going to make drinks and we'll probably talk lots more about the camera moves because it helps us stop five. You're like, you know what the DP did in that scene? Give me a tissue. Tech talk. This is tech talk.

All right. I love you guys. Hopefully my brother's not kissing anyone next week. Oh, God. I hope so. You guys, I love you. I'm glad we're getting through it together. Love you.

See you next time. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl. Charming for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive.

My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Thank you.