Drama Queens - For Better and For Worse ᐧ EP513

Episode Date: August 21, 2023

The girls get incredibly personal as they open up about parenthood, shame and adoption as well as what lessons should have been an easy takeaway from this episode.  Find out how they were inspired to live their lives differently. All of the ups and downs from this episode and beyond are revisited…for better and for worse.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens.

Hey guys, welcome back. Look, weddings are expensive. And we had one in the last episode. So this was definitely like a paired down episode. It was a quiet, little easy, breezy episode, huh? Was I bored or because we have less of an attention span now because the, you know, what's put out now, the content that's out is always so fast-paced. keep up with everybody's short attention span?

Or was it just a boring episode? We were all saying things that we've already said 10 million times. Like, I like when we do just two-on-two scenes because it's theater. Fun. And I thought there were some great nuggets in this. There were, yeah. I like the device of how the montage is. It sort of felt like we were doing these merry-ground scenes.

I liked that one scene would bleed right. into the next and everyone was sort of confronting these ideas of what you want and who have you been and where do you think you're going all these sort of beautiful themes love that but it did feel slow and clunky and Hillary you did a great service to our show and to Peyton Sawyer doing what you did in this episode you are a good person and an even better actor right right Okay, here's the thing. Uh-huh. I'm a lot older right now.

And I'm every bit as petty as I was in my early 20s. And I just, it's hard to look back at yourself and be like, hey, kid, you were juggling a lot in this situation. And you said your lines. And you hit your marks. Good job. You know, we'd seen some fan comments before we watched this where they were like, oh, God, they're going to hate this one. Thank God they warned us. Oh, God.

Yeah. I know. If anybody hasn't seen this episode, let's tell him what it was. What was it? Season 5, episode 13. What do we got? Echoes, silence, patience, and grace. Because apparently, so many echoes.

And apparently grace is all we talk about on the show anymore. Oh, God. It's a lot of regurgitated dialogue. Yeah. Give them the synopsis. Okay. Lucas picks up the pieces after being left at the altar by Lindsay. Nathan and Haley deal with the repercussions of Jamie's abduction.

and Brooke is haunted by her past as she considers adopting, and Peyton is visited by an old friend. Wait a second, Brooke is haunted by her past. She's 22. Right. Yeah. Her high school pass, there's, yeah, there's so much to say. How do we break this one down?

Because it was a merry-go-round. And I'll say I like the merry-go-round device for an act. Maybe two acts, but I kept waiting for us to get. get off the ride and, like, actually get into what was going on. It was so introspective. A couple of loops would have been good. And by act three, I was like, well, now I just have motion sickness. We're still doing this.

We're still spinning around. Okay. There we are. You know, we could perform this as a stage show on one of those, like, rotating stages. Like Les Mis used this. We should. Like Hamilton. We're like, you walk in one direction and the stage spins in the other.

everybody's picking up the last line of the last person scene of the first line and the next scene yeah it was very carefully crafted it definitely felt to me it felt overwritten and it felt like kind of it kind of felt masturbatory like you just like the writer just sitting there just here's all my pros and let me just find all the ways to say things

that it was just very like all right already can we like we get it yeah we got it i thought we all looked good though we looked good we did yeah i mean my haircut was a crime but i will be clear we copied victoria beckham's bob that year so it was a moment in fashion history yes it just has aged so poorly and y'all i have such a big skull like i'm not meant to have short tight hair like that i'm just not tight hair it's not Good. Well, I like that little suit vest get up that you wore when you picked Jamie up. I was like, she's professional. What doesn't this woman see in her? I have just dressed up in a suit for my

interview that my mother tanked. This whole thing was so bizarre to me. I mean, let's just start talking about that part because I don't know. I haven't got, I actually have looked into adoption at times in my life and I haven't gotten that far into the process where I'm sitting down one on one with somebody. But I am, the one thing that seems to be the real barrier for most families with adoption is money. And I get that it was 13 years ago. Don't ask me to do math.

But I get it was a while ago. But I don't know. There's just so many kids out there that need homes. I really have a hard time believing that anyone would judge someone's, pick apart someone's high school history. high school. High school boyfriends is my favorite question. It's so absurd. It's so absurd. And to look at this incredibly successful, driven woman and then decide to not recommend her to have a child simply because she's questioning the motive. Like, there's no history in Brooke's life that would say that, oh, she just has a whim and then walks away from it. That's not who Brooke is at all. Like, she started a company and was followed through with it. Her friendships, she stayed and followed through. spite of difficulties. I mean, there's just so much. I don't know.

I didn't buy it. I didn't buy it either. The pettiness of that woman being like, didn't you date that boy and didn't your friend? Maybe your heartbroken over his failed wedding too, and you decided you need a baby. Like, what? It was so, like, mustache, spinny.

There would have been some action in this episode, at least, if you had just flat out busted out laughing at her. And just like, I'm so sorry, what's happening? Is this happening? Yeah. Like insanity. Yeah. I learned a lot about adoption from Willie Garson because he adopted his son right at the same time that I gave birth to Gus.

And when we met, we were like, you know, new parents together. And he adopted his son when Nathan was like seven, eight years old. So he was an older kid, but still very young. And Willie, before he met anybody, you have to do a series of classes. Yeah. Right? And there's, you know, night classes you have to take and social workers teach you how to do stuff. And it's a pretty extensive process you go through before you get to this phase of like, I don't know, you shoplifted in high school.

I don't think you're ready for this. Because they are trying to judge you by who you are now, you know, and like how stable you are. And do you show up every week? of that. Who did you turn into in spite of having parents that were a complete disaster? Yeah. It would have been great to see Brooke do that kind of training and really, you know, really get into what that exploratory process is as opposed to this, I don't know, what do they,

if they interview people, should bring a clipboard, you know, they're just definitely guessing here. Well, and one of the things that drives me insane about all of this as well is like people, when I think about my friends, you know, who've adopted. and like two of my best friends adopted both of their kids through the foster care system what they have gone through as dads,

the way they have advocated for their children. Like what it takes to go out and give a home to a child, the amount of work, like even the fact that we didn't address,

like Brooke could have gone and gotten a donor, she could have gone out with the explicit desire, to like get pregnant and be a mom, you know, she has sat here and said, I want to adopt. I want to give a home to a kid who doesn't have the life they deserve, who has been given up for whatever circumstance and provide a child with a better life than I have. Like, you know, as a single woman to make that choice is such a signal of like effort

and seriousness to me. It's like, you know, when we see these lunatics in some of the states, in our nation trying to stop gay parents from adopting. I'm like, no kid has ever been more wanted or advocated for. Like, stop, enough, you know. Any, so many people go out and like, whoop, get pregnant, whoopsie, accident. Like, and it bothers me that we leaned into, like, shaming this woman, but we didn't talk at all about

what it means to make that decision, the effort you're willing to make, the advocacy that, to your point about willy adopting, becomes a part of your life. Like, you have to jump through hoops to adopt. Yeah, you have to jump through hoops to adopt a child that you simply don't if you, you know, go out and if you get knocked up. Yeah. And like, I don't mean to judge anybody.

Like, look, by the way, like, I have so many friends who struggled through fertility. Like, becoming a parent is hard for a lot of people, a lot of the people. the time. But there's also, you know, what Brooke says, like, nobody made my mom get interviewed. Nobody made her take a class, like, should have. And it feels like such a missed opportunity here. And I don't know, like having so many friends who've been through it and, you know, who in our country and countries around the world, like Italy with that fascist woman who's taking lesbian moms off their birth certificates of their children. Like, I'm so angry about the way like modern families and adoptive parents get treated.

And I forgot that Brooke got shamed in this episode by the adoption woman. I'm just like, oh, my Lord. Oh, she's like, are you going to get married? Are you going to get married? Do you drink? Do you date? You dated boys in high school. Like, what?

You're into a bartender now. Does he drink? He makes drinks. Like also, Owen's sober. Like you took care of an addict. How dare you? You didn't turn your back on someone who was struggling? You monster.

Oh, it just like fires me up. It makes me so upset. It just means they didn't Google adoption process. No one Googled it or asked Jeeve did. Whatever the fuck we were doing back then. Like, it's so easy. Did you just say ask Jeeved it? I did.

The children won't know what that means. They won't know what that means, but it was cool back then. I'm trying to remember. where this goes because was it there was something about this actress though because she i really liked her i i really liked that she wasn't mean or bitchy or um snooty or i mean she was very warm judith scott is such a good actress yes so it's such a such a warmth and and openness about her and when she left after brook gives the big speech i look i remember feeling like i think this whole thing was a test so that she could see how far Brooke would fight for what she wants. Do we remember

if that's where it's going? I don't remember, but I will say, when we had that confrontation and I got to deliver the I am one in a million speech. Watching it today, I was like, oh, I see something's turning for her. Like, it's going to change. I don't know how quickly Angie comes into the picture, but I know that I foster that little girl with this terrible haircut. So for whatever that's worth, it can be that. I hate that haircut so much. It's your mom haircut. Yeah, she's trying to look older and responsible. But yeah, I thought Judith played it so beautifully. I just think, again, you know, this was the writer's strike back then. These scripts were turned in and then they were never edited. It's so clunky. It's so intense. It wasn't researched. It wasn't

based in any sort of a reality. Yeah. She made a whole meal with what was barely an appetizer on the page for her. So hats off to her. But, yeah, it just like, oh, it makes me so mad. I like this idea that you mentioned a little bit of, you know, Brooke, a kid who came from a no-parent home. That little thing of like, did you come from a single-parent home?

I came from a no-parent home. A no-parent home, yeah. this idea that Brooke wants to find another child with a no parent home and provide that. You know, I think as we get older, there's a lot of mother work that is done in therapy and things like that. And I have found, I didn't realize that not everyone on the planet wants to be a mom, like their whole life because I did. I was like, you know, five, six years old, like sleeping with baby dolls like, these are my children. Yeah, me too. And then when I met people that were like, no, I'm good, man.

I was like, oh, wow, cool. And I have a daughter who has zero interest in being a parent. She is, I'm like, do you want a baby doll? She's like, that's disgusting. And in my mind, in my mind, I'm like, it's because I felt like I needed to correct some things, right? Like, I'll just have my own kids and do it my way and it'll be so much better. My daughter doesn't feel like she needs to correct anything. And so she's like, the cycle, the cycle ends here.

Killing it. And that's how I'm going to interpret it. She'll hear this in therapy so many years later. And she'll be like, Mom, that wasn't it at all. I just didn't want a baby. That idea, of course, correcting in order to find, like, I don't know, your safety net, you know. Like, wanting to have someone to love is a basic human instinct. and pivoting away from like dudes and making it about like what can I pour love into, you know, as opposed to what will love me back.

Yeah. It's a great distinction. Is an important pivot for Brooke. Yeah, I love it, especially for someone who was taught to only find her worth in being validated by others to say, no, no, I feel best about myself actually when I give to others. Yeah. When I support my friends, when I help people achieve their dreams. and she wants to do that in this role as a mom because of what she's experienced as a godparent

and, you know, as this auntie to Jamie, I think it's really this special distinction and I don't know, maybe because that's a hard one sort of sense of self-worth for her, maybe that's why I feel a little protective and I'm like, we really blew this storyline, we could have done it better. Yeah.

Like sometimes when people fuck with our characters, I feel like they're fucking with, you got like my actual friends i'm like heyley james deserved better pain swear deserved better like i get really like i get protective of us even though it's not us us like i don't know i think yeah same i think to your point the the way we are talking about this and that evolution

yeah it could have been acknowledged better handled better it could have been a bigger deal if we'd gone deeper with it We're rushing into it. It's been one month since you told Peyton and Lucas, I want to have a baby. Well, also, none of that stuff was well thought out. No. Now Brooks out here trying to adopt. She's not trying to have a baby with Lucas.

She was never going to have a baby with the man who is the love of her best friend's life. Like, that was insane. And it's like, what did we do it for? We didn't even follow through on it. That's what frustrates me, the lack of follow through, because there are so many kids that need to be adopted and so many families who have gone through adoption. and how difficult that journey can be. What amazing opportunity that would have been to share that journey on our show

through a character that's so beloved. And you could have taken the time and walked through that. I think so many people would have showed up for that and loved to go through that journey with Brooke. Well, and the other side of the journey, choosing to build a modern family, asking a friend to be a donor. Sure.

Is such a big deal and something so sacred and could have also been a big, deal. But it's like we sort of dishonored both realities that people go through. And I wish we hadn't because it felt out of character for her. And it felt like it sort of cheapened both experiences a little bit. But to your point, nobody Googled it. And then we were on strike and nobody could change it, I guess. Yeah. There was just one person in a room typing stream of consciousness and then put it in all of our mouths. I'm a genius. I'm a genius. It wasn't the later seasons where I got passionate enough where I'd read a scene and be like, I'm not saying that. I rewrote it. Yeah. I wasn't

that confident yet. Totally. I wish. I love that I'm a one in a million thing. I did too. I feel like I hadn't heard that before. And I don't know if that's something that fans write a lot or if you hear that back a lot. But for some reason, that was out of my range of view. So I loved that. Yeah, that is one of the ones that I get to talk to people about a lot. And I loved it too. Yeah, it's such an encouraging thing to, I mean, that is one of those lines that, I think as a young girl or boy, just a fan watching the show is you walk away from that. That's a line that sticks with you that you can put as a badge on yourself. Like, yeah, you know what?

That's who I am too. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel, obviously, like very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories,

such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I like that this whole Victoria Brooke narrative, Brooke knows she will be a good mother. And it is something that has never been encouraged or validated by her mother. And so you're seeing her reach for a brass ring that no one's valued except her. Like, you know, Payton is like, kids, yeah? I mean, baby, I'm here, but like not on my radar, you know. It's not like

everyone around her is like, kids, kids, kids, kids. She has identified the thing that she knows will make her feel fulfilled and doesn't need any external validation. And maybe that's why, even though it's a complicated storyline, I do like it for Brooke, because when you can arrive at that place where you're like, this is my thing. And I don't need any other people in my life to tell me it's good because I know it's good. Yeah, I love that. It's cool to see her in that space. I agree.

And I think maybe it's because I like the storyline so much that I wish we'd gone a little deeper with it. Yeah. You know, I like it too. Yeah, if you're going to adopt as a single person, do you have to identify who your next of kin is? So, like, if something happens to you, who takes care of this child? I think you do. I feel like there's a lot of protocol that could have been juicy conversations for Brooke to add. And it didn't happen.

Just didn't. Yeah, Victoria's trying to, like, get power of attorney or something crazy. I like what you said, Hillary, about the mother work that we do. And, you know, Haley says, it made me think of that moment in the therapy sessions when Haley said, I won't be an absent parent. And I was like, why is that such a, why is she harping on? Oh, yeah, because her parents were always sort of in and out and around. And it was like, all those, I mean, it's not that they weren't ever present, but they were

very loose-handed with all the kids, sort of all of them kind of raising themselves, it seems like that's a great point is this a whole episode about mothers because Peyton talked about her mom too like Bailey's trying to imagine a new form of motherhood that she didn't experience yeah yeah and it's not that it's the wedge between her and Nathan but it's certainly like when you build a little wall a pillows in a bed it's that yeah it's a soft wall between you and your partner she's afraid of pursuing her own things because she doesn't want it make her kids feel abandoned. Well, and I think the idea of mother work is really interesting because as you start to do

your own work and your own healing, you also start to realize how those relationships have affected you, right? Like, Brooke is talking about this pain and not being seen and being underestimated. Haley is voicing that she does not want to be absent. She wants to be there for Jamie. She's working on this because she wants to give him a certain kind of. of stability and a presence of you know with her and and even yeah hill i mean you're talking about the the relationship and the love but you're also talking about art and belief and and the whole thing

starts with peyton talking about how her mom used to sing to her yeah and that's this personal relationship and and it evolves into her identity with music and how she sees herself and I think it's really interesting that in all these stages of our lives as women, our experiences as children gets reflected back to us. Right? Like, you're seeing who you are as an adult and knowing how you were influenced by your mother. And, you know, you go to therapy and they talk about how when you start to heal your matrilineal line, like it can go back generations. Like, there's work my mom and I have done that has healed wounds that my mom carried from her mother, who died a long time ago. Yeah.

And it's, it's so powerful. And, oh, there's like a part of me that watching this today with you guys goes, can you imagine if from this moment in time, like this present moment in history, knowing as much as we do and having as much access to mental health care and perspective and research as we do in 2023. Like, can you imagine how well we would have done with these storylines

if we were making our show today? Dude, back then, I was all like, I'm a pleaser. Everything's fine. In my family, I'm good. Today I would have been like, we gotta work on some stuff.

I'm setting a boundary. This is my soft wall. I have words for this now. Haley said something that broke my heart and I think it's part of this motherwork. She said she, when you guys were talking about

what you wanted, She listed, she's like, I want to trust Nathan again. I want to, you know, I want to be happy, healthy, safe. She said, I want Jamie to feel appreciated. Yeah. And the idea of saying that about your child, it's like, is she talking about her own inner child? Right? Because you always want for your kid what you didn't have for yourself.

And the sense of just wanting your child to be appreciated. Yeah. I don't know why that hits so hard. That's so true. it does really break your heart if you see your child offering a part of themselves to a friend or something and they're trying and they just get ignored or shut down or whatever. It's like, I know my kid and the other person's not, they're not seeing her to just, you know, I mean, God, it breaks my heart. Even if she says hi to somebody and they don't hear it. I mean, and then she's just like standing there like, well, you know.

I will hold a grudge if I see someone slight. but yeah i i think that's a really interesting thing to think about i haven't i haven't thought about it that way how was that monster day of filming for you guys in the therapy office it was fine i mean look i remember reading the script and even doing the lines feeling like this is so sophisticated i have done plenty of couples therapy in my life and i don't ever remember it feeling that poetic and perfectly everyone's just sharing their vulnerability in such lovely kind way i mean it was just very like it's scripted yeah yeah it was very buttoned up and maybe because it's four weeks later but i'm like nobody's having an outburst yeah what was the deal with that what like

why did nobody had the entire episode was just um cruise control yeah i don't know is that our fault as actors, did we try? And then we were told, just keep it all mellow. Was the material not warranting any of those emotions? Like, I didn't want to ever force anything. We were all hung over from that 100th episode party. We were just like, oh, God, mail it in. But you know what? Those episodes are really hard, too, because all the dialogue is the same. That's what I remember about being in there. Because you're saying the same thing, six different ways. But it's paragraphs and paragraphs every time. That is the hardest dialogue to remember because it has no meaning, really. Well, and when you're saying the same thing over and over again, by the time you're on

the fourth scene, you're like, what do these words mean? Like, which I'm supposed to say this thing, which is a version of that thing, but I've already said it that way and I have to remember to say it this way. It really can scramble your brain. Yeah. And you can't change the words because they are already matched exactly in the upcoming scene that we filmed three days ago. So you can't say it in your own words. Yeah. It's a, this was a technical episode. It was indeed.

But we were lucky with this casting that you guys had as your therapist. I mean, we were excited to see her at the beginning of this episode. You nailed it. You called it out. I can't believe you recognize her. 16 candles is what you said, right? Yeah. So we've had a John Hughes appearance in the Breakfast Club episode, and in this episode...

Havelin Morris as Olivia Pruitt, is that... Yeah. Correct. So Havelin Morris, I'm looking at her, and her hair color's different, but she's got that same arched eyebrow. And I'm like, this is Jake Ryan's girlfriend in pretty and pink. Is she British? Havelin is definitely a very British name, or unless it's like Welsh or Irish or something. Let's Google.

Hold. It's just every time she's giving you and Nathan relationship advice, I'm imagining the scene where her hair is caught in the door jam of Jake Ryan's bedroom. She's not British. She's born in New Jersey. What did I say? She's from Jersey. Guys.

Good for her. We were watching the episode and I just said, why did they make this woman do a British accent? We are in North Carolina. Why? Why is the therapist supposed to be British? I don't understand. I didn't get that one either. I would love to ask her about it. And it was so posh. Yeah, it wasn't even like, I'm from the streets in London.

It was not cockney. It was very... It just wasn't conversational. Fancy. It's just so, like, where did they find this British buttoned-up therapist? And why would she be the most relatable marriage therapist for Nathan and Haley, who are so not buttoned up and but you know what look I did love the advice she gave I love the idea of thinking about something that happens in so many relationships that long-term relationships which is people stop playing with each other they stop going out and having fun and and tapping

into the childlike excitement and what it was that they first fell in love with each other for and And so I thought that was great advice, especially for a young couple. Like, don't lose your joy. Don't lose your wonder and your laughter. Go find that. I love that she called Nathan and Haley out, though, where she was just like, you guys are 22 years. You're young. Totally.

You're not old. Please stop. You're making fools of yourself. Yeah. And to remind people not to give up on their play and their. And their spark, you know, especially at 22. It's so wild to hear her say that to you guys and to hear, you know, Brooke have to kind of defend herself to the adoption woman.

I'm 22. It's like, we are babies on this show. Babies. Just sad, defeated babies. Defeated, tired babies. If I've ridden hard and put up wet. That's right. We crapped out.

We crapped out. We crept out. God. Nathan and Haley are buried under the weight of all the responsibilities that they've got. And then all the stress and the trauma. And, of course, Dan and all the stress that that brings back, which I still don't know why he was being beaten up at the beginning of the episode. But we can come back to that. Yeah.

I was just going to say, like, good on Nathan and Haley to have this huge traumatic event happen and be in therapy like the next day. If they've already met four times. And it's been a month. Yeah, exactly. I would make him sit on that for a couple weeks before I was like, all right, I'm going to schedule an appointment and find an opening. Now we'll talk about it. That's how they ended up with the uptight British lady. She was like, I don't care who it is, the first place that says yes.

I'm open. I think that happens so often. I know it does in my life. I get caught up in all the responsibilities. And I forget, I'm like, I think it's been a week since I've just played, like just gone outside and ran around and kicked a soccer. all around with my kid. I've been so buried under responsibilities. And it's a good reminder. Anyway, I'm glad that was, I was grateful for that. It was a little gift like that today from this episode. Yeah, I thought that was really nice. A little bit of therapy. I like, I like all three of

us yelling at the screen while Nathan and Haley are back home and she's making the bed. And it's like, okay well do you want to hang out later tonight maybe and all right now kiss her now yeah do it now afternoon delight man now well they did they got right back into it back in the saddle thank god yeah fine i'm so happy we have reached that point yeah haley james you have a what i wrote this one down you have a serious ass haley james Say it again. Say it again. It may look different, but native culture is very alive.

My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornales, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball.

Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn SageBurn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was obviously interesting for me because I had to deal with the worst. The Voldemort, yeah, fucking worst. I wasn't speaking to him in real life,

and so he wrote himself into the episode and wrote me hugging him. That is so psychotic. Like, can you guys imagine Shonda Rhymes or Aaron Sorkin casting themselves on their own show? Especially in that scenario. He compared himself to the writer of Sons of Anarchy. He was like, yeah, I'm like that. And I'm just like, you're not like that guy.

You're really not. It was so creepy. And so I got the script and I was just like, all right. It's one day of work. It's just one day of work. I only have one day to be in this office. We'll film all these scenes. And, you know, my boyfriend's dad was directing and I'm my brother's on set.

There's like, all these dudes on set. And it just wasn't quite enough. And so I invited my dad to work this day. And my dad came and sat behind the monitor the whole day. Wow. Which was kind of weird, right? Because he clearly wasn't there to be friendly. He was just being of presence.

Yeah. And my dad is a jack of all trades, and he is really good at bullwips. He had like an Indiana Jones thing in the 80s and wanted to learn how to play with bullwhips. It's always really good at it. Oh, my God. I thought you were just giving us a metaphor. You mean actual, an actual bullwhip. Real bullwhips, Jones.

Amazing. Can't wait. Keep going. So in between every take, I would just like be. line to the monitor and just like go stand next to my dad because you can't touch me you can't pull me into a sidebar conversation can't do any of that if i'm just like shooting the shit and making jokes with my dad and so it's lunch and my dad has also been chatting up mike rail our sound mixer and they'd known each other um you know like i'm in i was in a band with mike rail that played

at the hundredth party and so they're chatting and stuff and mike divulges that he had been in the circus in his early 20s and was an animal trainer and also knows how to use whips. And so we break for lunch and Voldemort goes off to the production office where his office has like a view of the parking lot. And my dad and Mike Rail proceed to go out into crew parking, which is right next to the production office, and pull out bullwips and start doing all these tricks and just like crack and I'm real loud. So they're making all this noise. And It was the most redneck, like, carny move that could be done. I love this.

It was just like a message. It was like, hey, don't. Just so you know. Don't. Yeah. Oh, what an awkward day at work. What a shit day. That is like the North Carolina version of the dad and clueless being like,

I got a 45 and a shovel and no one would miss you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's a bullwhip in the back of my Ford Explorer. Watch it, bro. I love that you had your dad come out. That's great. That's cool.

It's really just taking advantage of the men in your life that care about you that, you know, stick around and stand up for you. That's amazing. Well, it didn't, let's be clear. It didn't, like, necessarily solve anything. Did it for that day? That's it. It was, like, for that day? Even to give you a day a reprieve.

I can't imagine doing that day and not having that because no one else was going to be like, hey, man, like, ease up here. You can tell by my body language I'm like always pointed away I'm never looking like directly at him I'm just sort of like delivering these monologues to the ether well you're walking around the office and yeah

I think you know what struck me and I'm curious if you remember any of this but just like knowing what you tended to gravitate to in wardrobe the fact that you were in that skirt and those heels and to be clear for

listeners, like our boss approved all our wardrobe. I was like, did he, did he like select out of the line of stuff you had tried on for, you know, that four episode chunk or whatever, like, oh, I'm coming in this episode. I want her in a short skirt. It like, it made me, it made me feel like itchy watching you walk around because I was like, oh, I hate that you had to be in there with him. We didn't have fittings just for, like, for the episode. Maybe we would do that if it was a really big episode and it's like this is the wedding and we have to get all like our wedding dresses but usually it was like just come do one big fitting and it'll cover six episodes yeah four or five six episodes at a time i don't remember how that played out but i just

i also remember because i do remember being uncomfortable in the skirt i was seated they wanted me to sit on the desk and i'm like i can't sit on the desk i have to lean against the desk it's like everything was very strategic um and i remember thinking like if i throw a hissy fit and i'm like i need to go put on pants it'll just i'll have lost i'll have lost and so god damn it like i'm i am not going to be flustered i'm not going to be bothered i'm going to show up and i'm going to say these stupid lines, and then I'm going to go home and, you know, play with the whip. Yeah. Do Indiana Jones tricks.

But I love that the fan base has acknowledged how absolutely cringy this is. Because there was a time where that person, where he thought he was so cool. I'm a good actor. I'm so cool. And I think there were maybe some fans that validated that. And now that we've just, like, aired all the dirty laundry, people are like, A lot of nerd. It's just so weird that he, why in the world is Peyton talking to Max the record store guy?

About, and why does he know about Lucas and all her deepest love? Intimate details of her life? Like, I'm so confused. I mean, how long was Peyton at thud? And he was not 36. He was not 36. Get out of here. What kind of nerd ages himself down?

I'm just trying to think of other people that Peyton could have been talking to realistically. Like, you want a random person that wasn't. Chris Keller. Great. That would have been the first choice for sure. Mia. Instead, he's holding up a record. And I'm like, so you paid yourself as the creator and showrunner who made the most money of anybody on our show.

You paid yourself to be an actor and took an episode away from Owen, Mia, all these other characters. Yeah. But where's Barbara? Yeah. What would be cool to have Barbara home? Moira. Moira. It's like, well, where's Karen?

Oh, she's coming back. she could have been with you and Andy could have been with Lucas yeah oh that would have been so good stupid dang it I felt that viscerally that was in my gut right there you just said that and I'm like that was that that honestly would have been so great for the long term of the show yeah where it's like obviously yeah and like she's getting advice and then Andy's telling Lucas here's how you go back and get Lindsay that would have been so interesting yeah how do I feel about that by the way yeah Lucas going in and talking a little. Like, I was not into that speech, I have to say.

It felt like so manipulative and, like, what's the same thing he said for the last five years to all the other girls. Yeah, he said it to Brooke for sure. Yeah. I'm going to prove it to you. I'll be waiting. For how long? Yeah.

Wait, did he ever say it to Peyton? Because I feel like Peyton was always kind of chasing him. I don't remember him being like, I'll wait for you, Peyton. No, at the beginning, he was chasing Peyton like crazy. And she was like, why are you so? crazy I wish you would have said it just like that

Why are you so crazy, man? Yeah, I think it's important to acknowledge that at 22 years old, you really do think you know what you want. And I did, for sure. That's fair. And then you find out later like, oh, I don't.

And that's okay, too. And Lucas, God bless him, just is not willing to give up. And I think got some good advice from Andy of just like, hey, you know, she just needs assurance from you. The same way I did with your mom. I knew that your mom had some unfinished business. I stuck around and I respected her space. But running out on a wedding is different than like, honey, I need a little assurance from you. I don't know if you really bounce back from that.

I mean, maybe in Lucas's mind, he's like, oh, that was kind of embarrassing. Maybe she just needs me to tell her I don't care, you know? Well, I wonder about that, too, right? Is how much of it could be about the ego of not wanting to be left? Because there are plenty of people who feel like that, and there are plenty of men who will do anything to not get left when their partner finds out who they really are. I had a break up once where I remember him looking at me and going, you're going to realize once I'm gone all the things that I do and you won't be able to get through without me.

And I was just like, I remember in the moment being like, oh. Oh, you think that's true, honey. Oh, no. I can take the trash out. Like, I do it all the time. Like, what are you talking about? Yeah. I don't know.

I think he genuinely does care for Lindsay. Yes. I think she represents a. side of him he has aspired to his entire life successful literary couple you know helping each other with the dead dad situation like they heal a lot of each other's wounds but there's just always that Peyton barnacle festering you know that's something that's been so that's a very common theme in romance stories, that there's one person that you're meant for and that's the person you're going to be, and no matter what happens, it's always just going to keep coming around

that that's going to be the person. I feel like the older I've gotten and the more I've seen and been through, I don't know. I just don't know about that narrative. I mean, I know that first love is strong and that you, that person will always be with you in your heart and that the memories. Like, the first boy I was ever in love with, I'll always remember that. And there was always going to be moments where I'm grateful for the first time I was in love. But I don't, I'm glad we're not together.

Like, life has taken me in so many different directions. I agree with you, Joy. I think the older I get, the more I'm like, man, I could live with anybody. My husband could live with anybody. We're easygoing people. We make the choice to live together. And so Lucas and Lindsay could end up happily ever after. But there's a choice there, and she's making the choice, like, hey, no thanks.

And he's got her in this weird professional headlock that I'm like, oh, God, Lucas, don't do that. That's not romance. That's weird. Oh, that's so, the professional headlock. That's great. Yeah. I'll only do the book if you edit it. I'm like, I think there are times in my life when I have latched on to a person because I, in a romantic situation, because I, there's that mindset that's just so pervasive.

culture because of shows like ours with moments like this like it's Lucas and Peyton and that's it's it's gonna be it's it's he's her lobster it's the thing that's that's that we're taught over and over and over again if there's that one person it's just got to be the person you keep going back to um but I just I don't I don't know if that's really true yeah it's neither here nor there or just something I thought of while we were watching no it's not a fucking magic trick man yeah it's like yeah that's a weird thing um but I thought, I like that Peyton has not reached out to him once this entire time. God, I love that.

Yeah. When Andy asked Lucas, he's like, oh, have you heard from Peyton? And it's like, no. Power move. Nope. So just above board. Thank you so much. Self care move, actually.

Keeping it classy, very proud. Yeah. Yeah. Meanwhile, I'm going to go pour my heart out to Max. You might as well have been talking to Dan. I mean, it was just so random. She could have been talking to Dan. And oh, my God, that would much better.

Just like, hey, no one's talking to you either. Cool story. Yeah. I don't want to talk to you. And he could have been like, well, clearly nobody wants to talk to you. Like, you could have been a funny, like, nasty little tete-a-tete. Yeah. Maybe they're both at the graveyard.

He's visiting Keith's grave. She's visiting her mom. Somehow they end up talking. This is why we have Riders' Root. Yeah. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional.

It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. Well, the fist fight at the beginning of the episode. I loved that.

Did they all think that Dan kidnapped the little boy? That's what's so confusing. No, I think Dan wouldn't have been able to leave the house without saying. And that's why Jamie's like, thank you. Yeah. Everyone knew Carrie took him. yeah but they could have done it better but why would they start beating him up i'm just so confused i liked the action it was the only action we got in the episode yeah besides the end maybe because

dan followed her and didn't call the cops like all the things he didn't do well he needed to be the hero and it's like you don't get to be the hero you're a murderer i don't know yeah that was pretty confusing also why did dan pay off the social worker i miss that part that's gonna be in the future, I think. I think in the, there's going to be something that comes up where that guy was like, oh, Dan says I paid him off. He wanted him to listen to him. He wanted to chat. Yeah, it was a weird little, he was like, how about you keep this money and just have a small talk with me? But clearly he wanted to leave that money there and make it look like that guy took a bribe. Yeah.

But I didn't get anything out of that scene. I didn't, I didn't get any new information. I mean, you know, Paul was fine as always. He was great, but what do you do with them? If there's nothing on the paper, what are you going to do? Paul was good, but it was so random. And then to have the guy be like, didn't you kill your brother? It's like, really? This is what we're talking?

Like, we all know. And what was weird to me is that everybody knows what Dan Scott did. He was the mayor of Tree Hill, and he's creeping around the elementary school. And nobody's calling the police. He's talking to little kids through the fence, a grown. ass man. No. At my child's preschool,

parents couldn't even show up early for pickup and talk to kids over the feds. They were like sit in your car when it's time for you to come out. We'll let you know. Yeah. You can't just show up for lunch like you used to. It's really weird. I wasn't into that

either, but I'm curious to see where it's going. Hey, it can't get worse. You know what? This is silly. Everything is silly. And we have a fan question that I find to be very silly and also adorable. Who wants to read it?

I don't want to talk about this. This is gross. Oh, no. Yuck. Okay. You had the most to deal with this joy because you had to deal with Nathan. Sweaty boys. All right. When you have a scene where you're supposed to have sweat on your face, like embody after a workout, a basketball game, fight, is it just water?

Are they actually, like, forcing us as actors to work out and work up a sweat before we went to a scene? It's so funny. No, they're not forcing us to work out. Although sometimes the boys, to make their muscles look really big, will sit and do pull-ups right before a shot because they want to be bulgy. They're like, oh, man, we're going to roll. Better do push-ups. Dumbies.

No, the makeup artists have a little spray bottle, and they squirt your face with water. They missed you. Well, they missed you with water, and they also have, it's like a glycerin solution. Yeah. You know that they put on those spongy, so like they'll pat this glycerin. it's like a gel. It's gross all over your forehead. So the sweat beads stay and then wardrobes spraying your shirt with water. And you're just like sticky and wet all day. It's pretty disgusting. Yeah. That's the answer, folks. Yeah. Thanks, Kaelin.

She's like, how do I get that dewy look? That's it. Do you think they just love teen dramas so much that we went from having that super mat makeup in the early 2000s to the like, how do we make all these bitches, Dewey. Dewey. I was real happy when Dewey, when the Dewey look kicked in. I do love it. You just wake up in the morning and you're like, you know what I want to look like today? A glazed donut.

Ooh. I don't know that I have a choice anymore. That means you want to look like a snack? Listen. I'm not mad at it. All right. So are we going to spin a wheel? Yeah, let's do it.

What are we going to get? I don't know. This week, we... have our most likely two. Did we have this question already? Am I crazy? I don't remember this one because I want this answer. Who is most likely to burn Thanksgiving dinner?

Well, didn't Brooke? I was going to say I did on the show and we had to put the turkey out with a fire extinguisher. It was a funny scene. With me and Sharon Lawrence and Austin. It was great. I think I directed that episode. Really? I think so.

I will say, a great episode, great scene. Not me in real life. No, you are so, like, she's got a call sheet for the whole cooking schedule. Who's burning the turkey in real life? Who's burning in real life? Guys, don't tell her I said this. It's Danielle. Is it?

Because she tries to do too much. Like, instead of, like, parceling it out, she'll be like, I can do it. I can do it. I'm going to cook three turkeys, one. deep fried one in the oven and another like in a toaster oven or something and she's the one who's like I got it and not all three will burn but one of them one of them will I would forget about the turkey I could see that happening being like what am I missing yeah yeah I don't even like turkey so yeah let's just eat ham it's easy so open the foil did we have a honorable mention this episode

What we love? God. I don't know. It's never this hard. Did you just say it's never this hard? Yeah, it's never this. Usually honorable mentions kind of jump out. I'm having a hard time.

Joy, I go with what you were saying earlier about your scenes. I really liked the reminder, despite how clunky so much of the episode felt. I like that we offered the audience a reminder to play. Yeah. You know, like don't take it all so seriously all the time. That felt nice. Yeah, I agree. Great.

I love that, giving the honorable mention to a theme. Oh, oh, what? What? What? One of the biggest hawks I have ever seen just landed in my backyard and picked up a pillow and then realized it, like, swooped in, picked up a pillow, realized it wasn't an animal, dropped it, and kept on its merry way. But it flew under the tree in my backyard. That was insane. baby is this a metaphor what oh god

how do we need to look up the spiritual meaning what's going to come next oh guys all right next week we have season five episode 14 what do you go home to sophia goes home to hawks um be careful hawk medicine awareness and enlightenment we're going to learn some more all right thank you guys ready to go

hey thanks for listening don't forget to leave us a review You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens, O-T-Harendh. Or email us at Dramaquins at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Dramma girl. Cheering for the right team.

Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. drama queens drama queens it may look different but native culture is alive my name is Nicole Garcia and on burn sage burn bridges we aim to explore that culture somewhere along the way it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop that's dr lee francis the fourth who opened the first native comic bookshop explore his story along with many other native stories on the show burn sage burn bridges listen to burn sage burn bridges on the iheart radio app

Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.