Drama Queens - Getting Bagels • EP 711

Episode Date: September 30, 2024

 You can't love every episode of television you've ever worked on, and this one falls into that category. The Drama Queens confront the controversial cliffhanger involving Alex, and why it should have been handled differently. Rob and Joy criticize the rushed romance between Quinn and Clay and Sophia expresses her frustration over Brooke’s endurance of Julian’s betrayals.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. From prologue projects and Pushkin Industries, this is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode deals with the topics of depression and suicide. If you or someone you know is suffering, please call the suicide and crisis lifeline by dialing 988.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl. Drama girl cheering for the right team. You could dream a smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you're tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Today, we're discussing season seven, episode 11.

You know I love you, don't you? Air date was November 30th, 2009. Snopsis goes, Nathan and Haley's careers bring about a tough decision for the family and Julian divulges a secret to Alex that big time violates Brooks' trust. Appropriately so, by the way. Meanwhile, Clay tries to resuscitate his career as an agent. Jamie learns the truth about skills' new job

and a fresh from jail, Millie, finds an unlikely supporter in Victoria. This one was directed by our friend Greg Prange and written by William Brown. Oh, no. What so? Oh, my God. Well, first of all, I was about to be like, I love that you added big time.

I was like, ha ha, that's so appropriate. And I just realized I wasn't with you guys last week. And I watched 10 and not 11. Oh, no. Oh, how funny. That's okay. I was like, Jamie find that fresh from jail. I was like, no, she just got arrested.

It's okay. You can be one of the viewers at home who did not watch the episode before they listened to the podcast. And we can talk. I love it. I can't wait. Yeah, we did this with Joy, and it was a blast. I do remember a lot of this episode. And now Joy, your text from this morning makes a lot more sense.

Yes. Yeah. Well, gosh, I have to say, I think we have arrived at the worst episode of One Tree Hill, maybe at least my least my least favorite. And I'm sorry to say it. And listen, folks, you know us. We are going to find the silver lining. We are going to talk about things that we loved. but I hated this episode. Sorry.

Okay, let me ask you, before you go any further with that, do you hate it because it wasn't a good episode of television or do you hate it because of the content? Both. Okay. Say more. So aside from the fact that we hit a really heavy level of misogyny and harmful stereotypes in this episode, it was, I'm sorry to the people that I love. I think it was a badly written, badly directed episode of television. The actors were totally hung out to dry in this episode. We had, and who knows, look, everybody has a bad day. I've had plenty of episodes where I was phoning it in. And I think the director phoned it in.

I think the writer phoned it in. Who knows what else was going on in their own lives and their personal lives. And I think that's bound to happen when you're shooting. How many episodes did we do 200 something at 24? 22 or 24 a season. Over 10 years, I mean, we just so many episodes of TV. Everybody's going to have a bad day. It all just seemed to be the perfect storm on this one.

There was a lot of dead air, awkward moments. Every scene felt like there was no blocking, no thought put into it. The actors were just standing there talking heads. The scenery was boring. There was no activity. It was like, let's have Jamie and skills looking at the computer. And everyone just gather around and stand there and stare at them while they have this awkward emotional conversation. and everything just felt really placed.

I don't know. I do know. I'm not going to say, I don't know. I'm trying to stop that habit. I have that bad habit of doing that. But anyway, I was not happy. And you're like, why am I saying I don't know the answer when I'm actually smart and I do?

Okay, I have a question because as you started to say that, especially about how many episodes we shoot a year. And as you were talking, I was doing the math of, okay, if we're 11 episodes in, it's before the holiday. break. So you're hitting that point. Everyone comes back to work, like, fresh-faced, like bunny-tailed or whatever, whatever that phrase is, like in July. And by November, you're so underslept and so tired. And yeah, I mean, your body just starts to get to a point where it hurts all day. And like you said, Rob, I can get the, I can get the timing of it on the humans. And it also

can really be a bummer to see exhaustion and action on camera as a viewer. I would like to ask a question as the person who clearly forgot what episode we were on this week and watched last week, which is great for me. I wrote a question down about 710, and I was like, okay, I'm not trying to be like such a misogynist, but the extreme move for Alex to say, I love you to Julian in a text message and then break her sobriety over this boy. that she doesn't really know that well. And I get what it's like, she's finally being recognized. She's finally being seen as a whole person and not an object.

We all obviously were begging for that on our show with our own boss. You know, but I had this sort of breathtaking moment where Alex finds her, or where Millie finds Alex at the bar. And I think, oh, maybe she knew Millie was coming and she's ordering the shots for her. And then she takes not one, not two, but three.

And I wrote down, I said, am I being too cranky or were we just indicating all the time that women should throw their lives away for men? And we never said it in reverse on our show. And then I was like, maybe I'm, I don't know, maybe I'm in like an emotional moment. But is there more of the same in this episode, like just more terrible writing off of women? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, this, I found I had a big issue with like the Alex of it all throughout this whole episode. It's funny, I had a bit of an emotional roller coaster.

I genuinely, my third note is, I stand Brulian. You know, it opens with this, with sweet disposition playing in the background. You guys have this sweet scene in the kitchen. And I realize, like, I really am rooting for these two. This is awesome. And then Julian just captain ignores. or a red flag, he divulges to Alex. So first of all, I didn't even think about this until it.

So he divulges to Alex Brooks Infertility Secret, which is like just such a capital T trauma, like, violation of trust. That's horrible. Especially. Think about the fact that this was in 2009. Yes. Like people talk about this stuff today in 2024. And it's still so personal. And imagine.

It wasn't even a secret that he'd been holding on to for like months or something. It was like the next day. Yeah. Yes. And then I realized after the fact, I thought, this dummy needs to go to therapy and learn about boundaries. Because the fact that he didn't set a boundary after she texts, I love you. Like for, again, seriously, ignore a red flag. Yeah.

She corners you in a hotel room and takes off all of her clothing. You tell her no. His girlfriend is her boss. Then she sends a text, I love you. Mind you, every business interaction, there's also flirting, one way flirting happening. Yes. But at a certain point, you are party to it. If you're not shutting it down, you are participating.

So the fact that, like, he didn't check it. He didn't set a boundary about the clothing thing that he stood by at least. She texts, I love you. And he's just like, oh, whatever. He's alone with her at the house and shares this information. Yeah. And then, like, doesn't even call Brooke to give her a head. heads up. It still would have been terrible, but at least Brooke would have been prepared for it.

Yes. To say, I did a really bad thing. I got hot up and I'm so sad for us and I blurted it out and I'm so sorry. So that's the thing, the blurting it out. And this is why one of the reasons, one of the many reasons in this episode, I say the actors were hung out to dry. Because we were all doing the best we could with the material and clearly with the direction and the staging that was handed to us. But if that scene had happened early, all the scenes were early in the morning, all the opening scenes. Julian could have been early on the balcony, like, tired, didn't get any sleep. He's nursing a cup of coffee. Alex bust in. He's like, please leave me alone. Stop coming around here. And she could just push enough buttons that he could have blurted it out in a way that was like, here's why I don't

need you around. I'm dealing with this. I'm dealing with this. My girlfriend can't get pregnant. Now I've got to deal with that. And then now Alex has the information. that they need her to have to continue on with the rest of the episode. But they did Julian no favors. They did the audience no favors in watching and appreciating who these characters are and loving them.

And as an actor, you're like, well, this is what's on the page. Like, what else am I supposed to do? Exactly, because you have to do it. You have to shoot the scenes. Yeah. And, you know, let's be honest, there have been so many times when we've all gone to bat for our characters.

And it's a really tricky thing. because you can't complain all the time because then you get yelled at. Yeah, you got to pick your battles. And in an episode like this one, because it's weird, this is one of those ones where there's so many things I remember

like it was yesterday. So many of us were like, what is this script? Yes. That I know we were met with a, God, you guys are just all being so difficult. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's, and you want to sit there and say, we're not, we're not actually. We're just saying none of these things feel thought through. It's like we got a first draft and we're supposed to be on a dissertation and one of these is not like the other. I agree. And so like I said, it really took the wind out of my Brulian sales and just made me more of a just like a Brooke fan because I, it just, unfortunately, A, I see some of myself in that behavior because I came very late to the boundaries game and learning how to protect my relationships and to prioritize them, prioritize them, excuse me. But like,

After the first time, Brooke already said she's uncomfortable with this dynamic, and she has, and Alex has been so out of pocket, that right there is the moment where you need to sort of reassess the situation and start, like, protect the castle. Like, your relationship is the priority. So if anything, overcompensate. Yes. And instead, he's kind of, like, there's a difference between being like a ho-hum, nice guy, people pleaser. And when that goes too far and is actually harming your relationship. Yes. And okay, so I love that you're saying this, particularly because you're giving this insight as a man, Rob, bless you. One of the things that I will admit, like you're saying, you see some of your past in this, this season and, I mean, certain storylines we've done in general, but some of the stuff in this season is so triggering for me as the adult woman that I am now, because what I see Brooke Davis doing is tolerating terrible behavior that I've tolerated. and not actually valuing myself to set a boundary soon enough and making excuses for behavior

and keeping it in because, you know, there's that old adage of like, don't talk too much shit about your partner to your friends because once you get over the issue, your friends will be mad at them forever. And that has made me stay in things that have been so toxic and so damaging. And then, you know, you let people in and everybody goes, oh, we've been waiting for this. Thank God. Like, we were worried, but we didn't know if we could talk to you about it because you weren't talking about it. And this whole storyline with Brooke really does that to me in a way that

makes me want to sob. And it's so hard to see her keep trying to work it out. Because I'm sitting as a viewer being like, but what are you working out? Yeah. Like, don't you just think you deserve better? And who's in Brooke's life? Why don't we get the example of somebody saying, hey, what are you doing? This is not okay. Yes. And you have this, or excuse me, Brooke has this line in the episode. Because to your point, yes, there is so much of this episode is the women seeking the men. And that was sort of the dynamic. It's oddly, it's like, it's with Brooke and Julian. It's with Alex and Julian. It's with Clay and Quinn. But there's a moment where you are, it's a very sweet moment between Brooke and Victoria, where Victoria is like really showing up as like a good mother figure. And you're

upset. She's like, it's fine. Like no is not the end of the sentence. We're going to figure it out. You know, it's going to happen. And she says, and if he's not okay with that, then maybe he's not the one for you. And then you're crying. I think you say something effective, but what if I'm the one for him? I'm sort of like going to with what you said. It's like, yes, who wrote this? How about, how about Kim, in that moment. Like, how about you just be pissed and let yourself be angry because he really, really put his foot in it, you know, as opposed to. But what if I'm the one for him? It's like, hey, man, you got some self-worth in there?

Yes. And truly, there's a part of me that, like, in this moment in my life, is like, wait a second, did I get, like, brainwashed into tolerating terrible behavior by our TV show for 10 years? Like, do I owe the next 10 years? Do I owe all those therapy bills back to our writers' room? Like, what? Oh, my God. I will say the one thing that worked to help balance out that totally uneven dynamic is the fact that Rachel is straight up horrible to Dan

when he is nothing but sweet and hopeful to her. That's true. Genuinely, you know, she's pushing him to do the show and he doesn't want to do it and she's completely ignoring his feelings. By the way, slap of the season, hands down, is from Jimmy's mom slaps the absolute daylight's out of Paul. And because I know Paul, I know he said, hit me in real life, like you see it. She genuinely slaps the shine off him. But in the wake of all that, they're in the limo. And he's

like, I don't want to do this. Oh, he actually hands her a check. And he goes, I'm done. Here's your money. And she's like, no. She's all business. And he says, we can grow old together. And she says, you're already old. And then he says, we have enough. And she says, it'll never be enough. So at least there is one relationship in which they have flipped the dynamic and the man is the one seeking coming hat in hand for affection, attention, and just getting bagels. Getting bagels.

Getting bagels. It's so good. Please name the episode, getting bagels. Because that's what we got with this episode. And they were not good Brooklyn bagels. You know, it's throughout the episode, like not just that, because even in that scenario, Rachel's still a villain, which is fine in and of itself, but in the context of every single woman having some sort of misogynistic label put on her, even when Millie's leaving jail and the shot of the prostitute being carted into the jail. Why are there so many prostitutes? Also, it's like the Johns never get arrested.

just always put the women, I mean, that's a whole other, let's talk about that for years, but it was Mouth when he was upset with Millie, he's sitting on the couch at the end of the episode and he's playing some kind of video game where he's just running around with AK-47 killing other dudes in the video game. First of all, we've never seen that behavior from Mouth at all. But secondly, just sort of the casualness of like, oh, this is what guys do and they feel mad at their women and they just need to relieve stress, we go. And it was so irresponsible.

And there's a comment that Brooke makes about being adopt. She says, if you can't get pregnant, we'll adopt. And she goes, it's not the same. And I'm like, oh, my God, every adopted child out there hearing that line. Yeah. It was so irresponsible. I'm very upset about this episode. Sorry.

I don't mean to get worked up. Get worked up. No, it's okay. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence.

That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford, Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi.

Nine times out of ten, they called me a massacist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why. Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare. And frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together.

Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yeah, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco. Benghazi on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I also found, and I've been sort of flagging this for a couple episodes now, but I really feel like I don't understand how things have gone so fast for Clay and Quinn, specifically on the Quinn side. Oh, my God. Yes. I'm sure you saw it in 10, Soph. By the way, she. walks in in 10 and is like, hey, baby, and I was like, wait, what?

I had a whole rant on this last week. Yes, it was like, did we miss four months they've been dating? Like, we're already to pet names. So this episode, though, one of the very first opening scenes is like Clay has been fired and he's at his beach house. And I don't even know what happens, but she just says, I'm so proud of you. And listen, on one level I can understand that if you see someone going through adversity and they're handling it well. But like because of all the other things that have happened, it just, it feels like two people who just really badly want to be in a relationship. And they start dating and they're like, wait, you want to be heavily involved?

I want to be heavily involved. And they just like move in within a week. They're saying, I love you. And within a week. And everyone else is like, you know, you can let this breathe and just happen, right? You know, this one, it's kind of the same thing. like Clay is showing her like very little affection

he kisses her on the cheek once and then there's some stuff that happens like mid episode but then at the end of it it's like Clay he's kind of giving up and Quinn shows up to his ex assistant's office clearly to hatch some plan

to help Clay which it's interesting I'm curious but it's just that thing of like you and she oh that's what it's midway three episodes she says to him because he's like I think I'm just going to leave Tree Hill and she starts to to confess, and she says enough for the audience to know that the reason I stayed was for you.

So it's again that thing like, well, also her sister lives here. Like, it's just that thing of like, Clay's whole, or excuse me, Quinn's whole life has become Clay. Like, Clay's like, hey, it's great, you're here. I appreciate it. I got to get new stuff. Clay's got the boundaries going. He knows what's too. But by the way, Joy, even to your point about all the ways the Julian and Alex conversation could have gone,

like obviously we didn't see it in the in the earlier years of our show because you guys weren't with us but in the story Quinn is haley's sister so she could have told a whole story about how great it is to be back where she grew up and walking on the same beaches that she used to blah blah blah like she could have had a whole thing and then let something slip and we could have gone oh she's given a spiel but she's here for him and it would have tracked And it actually could have been the good kind of exposition that would have told us a little bit about Quinn's childhood. She could have even told a story we didn't know about her and Haley. Like, there's ways to do it if you're not being lazy and they were so lazy. There's no subtlety in this episode, none whatsoever. And I just, I think it does a disservice to the growth of a relationship and the payoff. When you come in so heavy-handed, it's just, it doesn't have the same thing than when it actually happens. You know what I mean?

And again, I felt like they were just going, we lost a couple, but don't worry, here's a new couple. Here's another one. But they lose their credibility as characters that you're falling in love with. Just individually as people, they start to lose their credibility. Quinn just suddenly getting out of a marriage that she's not even totally out of yet, and she's diving right back in with Clay. That's a character defect. It's okay to have character defects, but pick the right ones when you're trying to make an audience fall in love with new people. Can you imagine how incredible it would have been if one of, if we had a character on the show that was a therapist, that everyone went to see a la la the Sopranos?

The Lorraine Brocko, right. Could you imagine the incredible therapy sessions, the audience would have got to sit back and listen to? Oh, I would love it. That's what we needed. It would have been incredibly interesting. Mm-hmm. But no. It's more fun to watch people not in therapy.

I thought mouth was very sweet I thought the Millie stuff I'm just waiting for it to end Lisa's great I love watching Lisa I'm just so tired of this story that clearly is not about

the character of Millie at all it has nothing to do with Millie Millie is not present it's just this trope and I just want it to end so I can see Lisa be Millie again you know Yeah

well and the thing is they're so good together. Even the, forgive me for continuing to reference it, since you guys obviously did the episode while I was gone, but I loved that scene when Millian McKenna come out of the bathroom and mouth confronts her and asks her if she's using drugs in 10. And the whole fight and the way that that nosebleed just starts and he's just watching and she's ranting. It's like, they were both so raw and it was clearly so painful and she's just letting all this insecurity pour out of her and they're so fun to watch as actors but i have to choose and i i realize it might not be as easy

for folks in the audience who don't do the job we do i have to choose as an actor to like leave my friend at the door this character that i love as a viewer and go i'm just going to watch lisa actor face off in these scenes. I have no idea who this character is, but God, I'm loving it. And it's a weird thing when you have to do that, especially when you have actors that are so talented that they could have done the storyline across a season and it could have really developed Clay and Quinn, Millie, you know, beginning to have this addictive problem. Like, it could have been given the breath it needed and it just wasn't. And when it, when you jump too fast into it, It feels like a shock.

Yes. And addiction can be an incredibly compelling story. Just not when you do this sped-up broad strokes after-school's version, after-school special version of it. It's just like, oh, we've seen this on Saved by the Bell and a bazillion other shows, you know? I think Godlase is such a good actor because at least in those moments, I can watch it and I feel for exactly what you're saying. So I don't know who this character is, but I. I'm feeling for this woman that I'm watching on screen. And I appreciate empathizing with her journey for a moment.

But yeah, I agree. Like, when's it over, please. I remember when I went to see Green Lantern in the movie theater, I don't even know if I wasn't. I think I'd maybe just started acting. But I remember even then watching it, and I remember thinking about halfway through it, and I'm a comic book nerd, I'm so excited.

And even then halfway through, I remember going, I'm watching two very good actors do their best. with a terrible script. And that's kind of how I feel lately with Lisa and with Jana. Alex to me is just like she's the worst in this episode. I don't know. Like I just, I can't stand her. But like you said though, so I can watch it and go, but Jana's crushing.

Like she's bringing emotional weight to some really crappy dialogue. Like there's no subtlety to it. It is peak and valley and it's hysterical and manic and it culminates and it culminates with a scene in which she calls Julian confesses her love, thanks him, and then proceeds to hang up and try to unalive herself in a bathtub. So awful. And Joy, I have a question for you because I had this moment and maybe it's like getting too close and nitpicking. But why is she in her bra and underwear? Why did she, if she's, she's about to end her life, we see clothes right next to the bathtub. If you're really trying to end your life, why are you taking off your t-shirt and jeans?

I totally agree. And you're not nitpicking. It's, this is one of the most infuriating moments of the episode to me was creating suicide porn, basically, out of this moment. Like they wanted a beautiful shot of a beautiful girl with a beautiful body in beautiful underwear and blood draining from her wrist. And it was an overhead shot, and it was supposed to be glamorous. And I am so angry about this. Can I add to that anger? Because I'm still angry about this, and it's almost been 20 years. Using a suicide attempt as a cliffhanger on television. To use this as drama, as must-see TV, as tune in next week to find out what happens, it makes me sick to my stomach.

Yeah. I don't even know what to do. Like, I'm hot. Like, I'm, I'm angry. When I saw that shot, I was like, what, what are we doing? What is the purpose of this? The reason she had to be in her underwear was because they wanted the overhead shot. Yeah.

Or network TV, they couldn't do it without her underwear on. So they put her in this really beautiful, vintagey-looking set of underwear. And it could have been, like, it literally could have been her arm, like, dropping into frame by the bathroom floor and you see a little bit of blood and you cut away and you know what's going on. They could have done that if they, I mean, there's plenty of other things they could have done too. But I'm not saying we shouldn't be telling these stories on TV. I just, it's the fact that they used it to try and make it sexy somehow. That is, it's unconscionable to me. Yeah. And that it's always women that are put in the position to do it. And that when you bring it up,

they tell you, well, this is the way it has to be. There's no reason she couldn't have been wrapped in a hotel towel. Dude. Yes. In the bathtub. Yeah. A white towel in the bathtub. There's no reason.

There's like jeans in a t-shirt next to the tub, meaning she chose to take off her pants in her t-shirt, which were not going to be in the way of her business. She chose to take those off before the call. Like, what? It's just, it's so dumb and it's such a disservice to it. Like, I remember one time, I don't know. different show. I was supposed to be like about to die and I was supposed to be saying goodbye to my best friends. And and they wanted me shirtless, sitting upright in the bed shirtless. And I went to,

I went to bat on it. And I said, you're completely undermining everything that's happening in this scene. It's going to become a beauty pageant if this is about me and a shirtless in bed. You got it. Figure it out. I don't care. But put me in a t-shirt, put me under the sheets, but we're not doing the shirtless, you know? And because it's sort of the same thing where, like, you completely take the focus off what's important. It becomes, like you said, it's sort of glamorizes it or sexualizes it. It's just. Yeah, because then how many of these girls at home who are in a position of desperation in their life?

And it's like, well, at least I could go glamorously. Look at that. Look how beautiful that looks. It's so artistic. Yeah. I mean, that's, Marilyn took pills and laid in her bed. bed and it was like silk sheets and like if I'm going to go at least I'll go glamorously like it's not it's not glamorous and the willingness to put that message out there for young women for anyone it's so

irresponsible yeah no I can like feel exactly what you're feeling it's so irresponsible yeah it's all I don't know yeah listen it's a teenage soap opera you know like I know we want the best from it but it was also at a time period it was just like you know I'm not making an excuse for it. I'm just saying I think this is why it was okay for them. You know, it's because it's like, this isn't educational programming. This is candy. This is for consumption.

Yeah. Not that it can't be that and disappointing. You know, you can still want better for it. Yeah. So much disappointment. I think part of the reason it can be that and be disappointing is because we've seen that it can be that and be really important or impactful. And so it's really hard when it goes in the other.

direction of possibility. To go from potential to let down is very, it's hard. And I think it's also hard from, you know, this time period that we're in. We've had so many conversations. And in so many ways this generation has, you know, blown the lid off of so much inequity and mistreatment and like what really happens when terrible systems take advantage of 51% of the population. And it's not really changed that much. Like the conversation happens. Everyone says we got to do something about it. And then it's a lot of more of the same. And I think it can be really hard for all the wins to see all this like backsliding. You know, all it's like, what are we doing? There's so much, there's so much harm done to people that it's really hard to feel like,

you have a platform where where you could have done something good and you did more harm. Like, isn't there enough of that in the world? That, that I think is tough. And I get what you're saying. Candy, soap opera, yes, but. Yeah. It's kind of, I think, one of the reasons why I have such an issue with the Millie's Party Girl storyline. Like when you portray addicts and alcoholics, like in the same stereotypical way,

you do such a disservice to so many people who, are struggling because that becomes the perception of it. And it's like, that is not the majority of people's story. You know what I mean? So it's sort of not only is it tired and boring and uncreative, it's also harmful a little bit, you know? Yes. Yes. It may look different, but native culture is very alive.

My name is Nicole Garcia. And on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim. to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence.

That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive

while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of 10, they call it. Called me a massacist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies.

It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare, and frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries.

This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yeah, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. One thing I think in the emotional realm of this topic that they did a nice job with was hiring Renee Vincent to play Jimmy Edwards' mom to come in. And, you know, you talked about the slap. And that was a really powerful moment for Dan. And I appreciated that they really went for it as actors too. But I did really love. And I have a little list of wins for the episode because I didn't want to be a big Debbie Downer. But. I did love that this woman came in, this actress who I'd never seen before, I don't know if she's local, I don't know if she's New York, I don't know where she came from, but she walked in as Jimmy's mom, what we saw her actually in the episode, the season when he passed away, and they brought her back. Sorry, I'm a bit jumbled because my adrenaline was really high on that to bring myself down.

but I appreciate that she was she was so honest and raw and getting in Dan's face and being willing to tell him yeah exactly showing that mirror to him this is who you are this is what you've done I will not forgive you I will not allow you to walk walk through this and think that it doesn't matter and that what you've done is you can continue to capitalize on it um it was such an amazing moment. I really loved that. Yes. To come in as a guest star and have to take up that much space and sort of command of a scene with a series regular is not an easy thing to do. But A, I think Paul's a great scene partner for that because he is the type of scene partner to tell you to take up space to let him have it, you know, but she delivered. She was she was

fantastic. I also have some wins too. I mean, some lighter stuff I thought. Yeah. I loved that Jamie is just over in the middle of the day at Skills and Mouth's place just hanging out even though he's whatever he is eight I don't know I just love that he was like one of the guys he just happened to be sitting on the couch

and I thought oh this is cool it was like cheers like Jamie was just there to hang out to check in I thought that was so sweet their dynamics great I loved yeah that's always a winning one I loved that Nathan's agents

flew in from wherever whatever big city they're based out of he's like Haley the team is flying and they got me an offer and I'm sitting there going like oh okay because I know how the story ends but I don't remember the whole ride and they show up to basically be like hey guy great news

we got you a dog shit offer in Europe like you guys couldn't have scheduled a conference call for this really disappointing news also when was the last time any of you had a business meeting in your house where someone stood up and presented to you like there wasn't a PowerPoint or anything they were just formally standing in the living room this is what i'm talking about it was lazy there's the random assistant yeah so that i thought that was stupid and hilarious it was funny yeah it was great that the episode needed some stupidity um but i liked look i liked clay

speaking of the agents i liked clay going out to the country i liked the breath of fresh air that I got watching the countryside go by in his car, watching him have a loan time and process through all this stuff, watching him communicate with this player that he was, that he was trying to recruit. And I don't know why he gave up so easily, but maybe you can enlighten us. You know, that was another one where the script is the script. Yeah. You know, at the end of the day, you're limited to what the words on the page are. But I did love. Wait, can you refresh Sof, because do you, I don't know if you remember the scene. When Quinn is like, what are you going to do? So I'm, Clay is dressed in a suit.

And he's obviously getting ready for something. And he basically says, you know, the agency didn't get all of my clients. And she's like, who did they not get? And he's like, I had this kid football prospect who's going to be the best quarterback in NFL in four years. I remember this. Yeah. And I drive out to the kid's house. And I have this really like, it's a cute, funny pep talk like Clay like amps himself up in the car.

The kid, by the way, that actor was great. Perfect casting for like the all American country boy who is going to be a quarterback. But he finds out, the agency had already called and said, hey, that guy's fired. And Clay, it's, it's, Clay does give up a bit easy. I wanted to see Clay fight more. I think they're just waiting for the build when Clay, like, rises like a Phoenix from the ashes. Like, where was his Jerry McGuire moment? I was hoping it was his Jerry McGuire moment.

The one thing I did appreciate, though, was that maybe in that moment Clay didn't have the confidence in himself. I appreciate that he was honest with. kid rather than just going because the kid goes what would you do or if you were in my spot and so maybe he was having a moment of just like brutal honesty and he wasn't feeling high on himself but the thing i will say to his character it was this great moment to see his character because he said who did they pair you with and he says an agent's name and clay takes a beat and goes no you should go with so-and-so it's a better fit so it was a really cool moment of showing clay's character and integrity, that he wasn't trying to hard sell a kid out of desperation.

Steady was saying, okay, I'm not your guy. Here's who you should actually be with. Best of luck. Maybe that's why he gave up, you know, quote unquote, so easily. But maybe subconsciously he was like, I don't want to be selling this kid on me for sure while I'm still feeling a little insecure. I don't want to do this out of trying to make myself feel better. I mean, less than 48 hours ago, he got fired by.

by his good friend for dropping the ball on his career. Yeah, it was like he recognized, I'm not going to gamble with this kid's career because I need a personal win. Like, that was pretty cool. And then he goes to the largest grave ever with no date, no words other than Sarah's name. And that is strange.

That's not the last we're going to see that giant oversized gravestone, but yes, it is like a Texas-sized tombstone. and it didn't he must have been paying by letter and he was broke that day because it's just her name not even dates not even a sentence uh it yeah yeah man i i was hoping this was like i said all i remember is how this story ends i just remember the scene where i come back to your house and i give a little speech and i was hoping that was going to come in this episode what it hasn't it's cool keep playing the fire The one lighter highlight of the episode was at least getting to watch Jamie and Chuck recreate white men can't jump on River Court. For skills, the sizzling. That was great. That was fun. The quote of the episode for me was when Jamie and Chuck walk out in wardrobe and skill says, y'all ready?

You know the first play, right? And Jamie says to him totally just with nothing. on it, just very confidently, matter of fact, just get out of my eye line and someone call action. I was like, perfect. That's great. Yep.

Incredible. You win. Incredible. Also, I liked the scene with Nathan and us, Dan at the door when Dan shows up at Nathan and Haley's house. I don't know why he showed up there. Who knows why?

Dan's always showing up random places. He just keeps showing up. He always shows up. But I was nice to see the two of them drop in again and have a, you know, it's not a conversation we haven't heard before, but I always appreciate hearing Nathan stand up for himself with his dad because we went through so many years where he kept giving him chance after chance after chance. So that was nice to see him say, look, you came back to Tree Hill, but I got nothing for you.

So whatever you're going to do, you do. You guys had a lot of, you had a lot of good scenes of this episode, Joy. I thought your stuff with Chantelle when Haley and Quinn were in the car together and you guys pothed the fight to have some real talk i bought it i liked it all i thought um i really liked the conflict or potential conflict of both of your careers uh wanting wanting different things at the same time you wanting to go out on tour and him potentially needing to go to europe to stay relevant and in the mix and i think i thought that was so relatable so real maybe not the careers the careers aren't quite as relatable but that conflict though like

whose dream gets precedence. Yeah. How do you make those decisions as a family? Yeah. And I loved that his solution was you come into the kitchen and he had planned a whole tour for you with places of interest to stop and eat and things to check out. Yeah, that was great. To me, I wrote the note of like, that is top-notch husbanding.

That's some teammate stuff right there. Yeah, it's a great partner. Yeah, it's a great partner right there. I love it. I'm going to miss you, but I know where you're going to be, and it's going to be fun, and it's going to be for a short amount of time. You know, but like, I have your back and we're going to make this work. He, you know, he found solutions as opposed to just living in the problem, you know? Yeah. And I think there's something to that as well, like, the, because to your point, Rob, the careers are not relatable. Being a touring rock star and an NBA player are not relatable for, you know, most of the world. But the, the. the reality of how does everyone get what they want, you know, each spouse and the family, because the family is its own unit, right? And so many relationships you'll see when we've done

the dynamics where one person has to put their whole life on the back burner for the other. And how long does that go on? How long does someone ignore your needs before you are living in your house with a stranger? Like, we know what it can do for someone to go unconsidered for long periods of time in their home. And it's really refreshing rather than, not that those stories aren't interesting. I think there are things we can all relate to, but it's such a refreshing thing to, instead of going into, oh, this is what's going to launch another conflict, immediately deciding to present a solution. And in presenting a solution, show your partner how much you care about them. And it was perfect because

she had just shown up for him in a really big way with this last controversy that happened. So it was the perfect opportunity for him to show up for her. Like it's a great way of being like, by the way, I see you. Like, you got me, I got ease. Yeah. And it wasn't from any sort of place of martyrdom. It was an active showing up.

I think the fact that he actually mapped out that whole plan and got excited about it. It wasn't just like, okay, I'll sacrifice what I need to for you. I'm willing to. No, he was active about it. He made it fun for himself. It was a participatory experience. And I loved that.

And in creating that this plan for you guys, it allows him to be a part of it. He gets to be a participant as opposed to just like, well, my wife's off doing this thing. You know, like he's a part of it with you guys. And another thing I liked about that conversation was, I think you say, like, nah, you got to do Spain. And he makes a point of saying, no, I think it's like a couple years ago. I think if he cites an event or if he just says a couple years ago, I remember you talking about how much you wanted to go back on tour. And I love that. Like, he listened and he made a note, this is important to my wife.

I'm going to file this away. Yes. And by the way, that's exactly the sort of thing they could have given to Quinn. Well, you know when I, and it just gives you something. Because with our time jump, you know, to hear Nathan referring to the time, essentially between the end of season four and the beginning of season five, right? Like those years we didn't get to see, that simple sentence, I remember a couple years ago you said, it fills in the blanks for the viewers. And those things are, they really, I mean, you just illustrated it perfectly why they go so far. Yeah.

I think we've just about covered that whole episode. I don't know what else to say. I think we should all just commit to not being misogynists and to no lazy writing. That's the bumper sticker. No lazy writing. No lazy writing. I really have, I'm really hoping the next episode is a good turnabout. And this was just a bad moment in time that everybody was going through something crazy in their life.

and just could not show up to work, except the actors. Oh, my goodness. Okay, we have a listener question, friends. Let's do it. We're going to get out of this episode and never return. Never to come back.

You picked a good one to not watch, so by the way, just skip right on to 12 for next week. By the way, there was a lot. I mean, things that bugged me in 10, but there was a lot that I really liked. And my honorable mention in 710, not that anyone asks,

is Taffney admitting that she'd had three martini's. He wasn't on drugs, but she was definitely buzzed. Leaning on all of the clothing racks as she was walking. Incredible. Also, that scene between her and grubs. Okay, not the point of it's so good. Yeah, we went in on that one because that was... I'm looking for a lover and you've made the list.

Incredible. Camerun is asking us, what's an unexpected skill or knowledge that you've gained from working on the show that you didn't anticipate needing? But now you find it valuable in your every... everyday life. Great question. That is a great question. I have, okay, so I have two answers. One of them is more serious and one of them is more fun.

The serious one would be I discovered therapy while I was on the show. And that has been tremendously helpful for me in my life. And I still go to therapy. So I would say that discovering therapy, that's not directly related to Wintra Hill, but was really helpful. And I went into the show, never having done it, didn't know anything about it.

And then, you know, I found it was like, oh, yeah, I could use a lot of this. The funny thing that I took from this show, I will never forget this for as long as I live. One day we were on set and we're doing a scene. I'm usually pretty good with my lines.

I, you know, I'm off book. I'm good, but I went up on a line. And so Mike Leonor, a script supervisor, I go,

what's that line, Mike? And he, you know, he gives me the line, blah, blah, blah, I go, all right, thanks. And he goes, it's a good script.

You should read it. I think every single job I've done since on Tree Hill at one time or another, when I want to bust someone's balls, I drop that line on him. It's a good script. You should read it. That's so funny. It was one of the best burns of all time. And so now I have borrowed it.

And I will continue to do so for the rest of my life. That's such a good burn. And he screamed it across an active set. Like, because, you know, we're friends at this point. He's just busting my balls. But like, to scream that. A Karas set with like a hundred people were like, ooh.

Yeah. Damn. How about y'all? Well, I think the idea of the best idea wins is something that in TV you have to kind of approach every day you show up on set,

every scene you're walking into with that attitude. And I think that was something that I was able over the years to cultivate took a while sometimes, you know, there's trial and error, but the more that you learn how to really listen to someone else's idea and truly objectively try and judge, I mean, you're never going to always agree. You're not always going to agree, but many times you can. And usually the best idea will surface and it's obvious to everyone, like, and whether that's blocking the emotional

tone of a scene. And so that, I think, has been really helpful. helpful in my, just in my everyday life when there's any kind of just, uh, monotonous problem solving, any kind of random thing that needs to be solved. And you get a couple brains in a room. And it's like, all right, what's the best idea? What, how do we find that? And you sort of detach your ego from it. And I, I've found that to be very helpful. A good one. Soh. Yeah, that, it's funny. My, mine sort of exists between yours, because that's the motto from our show that I've kept, that I repeat all the time that I say on every time. It's a good script. You should read it.

Yes. You know, I remember how striking it was to hear our executive producer say the best idea always wins. And I would say, honestly, that the fascination with how you build a team that can really work together that was launched by that phrase of Greg's actually led me down the sort of larger part of my answer, which is that when we started our show, I didn't know I was going to direct on it. And I know that I'm detailed-oriented and that there are certain sort of leadership skills that, you know, I have from like growing up a camp counselor. What directing led me into that I didn't expect was realizing that I'm a very good producer. And that was something that had to be highlighted for me by our producers that we were close to on this show. And then I continued to – and it's not that I don't love directing. I do. I'd love to get back to it at some point. But I am a good producer. I was on the campaign trail yesterday, sorting out a bunch of things. And busy Phillips was with me. And we were laughing about how cool it was for both of us to be back in North Carolina, like scene of the Dawson's Creek and one tree held crimes, you know? And at one point, there was a problem. And I was like, oh, well, this is how we fix it. You do this and you do this. And we'll go over here. And she was like, God, you're such a producer. And we were laughing. And I realized that the shadowing I got to do that I thought was for directing really led me into going like yeah I love to do that but the thing I'm naturally the best at is this and it's and it's been so helpful for me on all the movies that I've made

and the TV shows that I've made since I'm like actually becoming a producer which I never knew I was going to be and it's so cool and so in a way it feels like the extension of Greg's phrase the best idea always wins like you might walk into a room because you think you're going to do this but you're going to wind up discovering you're great at that. And what a cool thing to be willing to sort of follow your curiosity and your natural inclinations to figuring out how to be the best member of a team that you can. Yeah. You know?

Like, I would never try to be the composer on a set. I'd be like, joy, you have to compose. Like, you're literally so good at it. Everything for you is a song. It's music. It's a musical even. Like, I wouldn't know. You could tell me your life depends on you writing a musical.

And I'd be like, it's just so nice to know all of you and I loved you. You've all encouraged me to grow. Like, I don't have that skill. And it's so cool, I think, especially all of us getting to be together in this way now, that we get to see the natural, like, ways that everyone's developed. It's just, I just love it. I think it's really neat. So, yeah, I second that emotion.

All right. Yeah. Teamwork. I love the idea. That is so true. And I think something we forget about a lot, even falling into what you're talking about with therapy, Rob. Like, we all tend, we live in such a me culture that I think we forget that we really do need each other. We need each other for therapy, advice, for problem solving.

Like, teamwork is a real thing. You just, you can get so much more done when you get out of your, get out of your own way and just work as a team, you know, it's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, it's really good. Shall we spin a wheel? Oh my gosh, wait. As a team, are we spinning a wheel? Let's do it. How funny that it just said most likely to win their fantasy football league and I got destroyed this first week and I'm very upset about it. Oh my gosh, that is the question.

Most likely to win their fantasy football league. Well, not Rob Buckley, apparently. Stop. I don't, we don't have enough time. time. I know we, some of us have hard outs. I have 25 minutes of complainings to do that I just don't think our audience cares about. It wouldn't be me though. I will just go ahead and admit that I've never been in a fantasy football league. I've been to like the party where the people do the draft, mostly because I want the beer and the wings. But I've never done it. So I don't get it. I know

it's a huge world subculture niche culture. I don't, I don't even know what the right word to describe it is, but I just know that I don't do it. Have you ever done it, Joy? No. They used to pass a chart around on set, remember, and you could put money into a, and somebody, I would just like, I'd hand the $5 and be like, put it on a square. I don't know. I like the number seven. And I like blue. It's a, I only got into it because my friends from high school were like, hey, we have nine of us. We need one more play in this. I didn't care at all about football. And I only did it because I thought, well, for four months out of the year, I'll talk more with these guys more regularly. It was just about connection. And then I caught the bug. Yeah.

And now I'm trying to find the balance between, I was literally just venting about this to a buddy last night because I was like, in theory, I like this game, but it's definitely not benefiting my mental health. Like I was trying to actually go, how much of this day is about it was a hard day of parenting versus I made a terrible trade that just blew up in my face. Oh, no. Can I ask a question because I don't know how this works? do you like I get what it is to make a fantasy football team but then does that mean that you have to watch all the games or is there some sort of app or website

that gives you the info every week oh yeah it's it's all on an app so it's like it's either just like three big ones that do it I realize I just sounded like a grandma but I just don't I have no idea either why did they even pass their do you remember when they would pass around a chart on set that wasn't fantasy football that was betting on individual games what's that called

That was like a football pool. Sometimes it can be called a survivor pools. That should just call like a pickum. We'll be like five bucks on Green Bay plus three points. I actually have no idea what fantasy football is. I mean, I've heard of the term, but I have no idea. D&D for guys who like to think they're jocks. Yeah.

Yes. Sounds about right. And what I would like to vote for, I think the only way you could convince me to play fantasy football is to do it the way I just found out my friend's cousin. did it, or rather my friend's cousin's girlfriend, she got suckered into being in a fantasy football league with a bunch of people and was like, yeah, I'll do it if I can only draft guys named Jake. So her entire team is made up of football players named Jake. And she's actually crushed people more than once now, and I deeply respect it. So I'll see if I can get some more information on that.

She was like, don't care, don't even need to know what positions they play. I'm just going to do this for fun and see what happens. Is Jake the name of someone special in her life, or was that just totally arbitrary? I don't know. I just noticed there's a lot of football players named Jake, and she was like, Jake. Maybe the thing is to figure out, like, how many people do you have on a team? Oh, like 11, maybe? 11 or 12.

Yeah, 11 or 12. Oh, I was close. Okay. So we should look up the, I don't know, five to 10 most common names in the NFL and then have our teams that way and see how we do. Just like one season. Like everybody gets all the Johns, everybody gets all the Williams, everybody, you know? Yeah.

The problem is that like, for example, her team right now would not have a starting quarterback. So it would be tough. I heard of someone drafting just players, they thought were handsome. And I thought that was really funny. And the thing is that person will probably end up winning the league. It's this maddening thing where it's like the more effort you put into it. It's like the sweatiest guy in the league who does the most trades and analysis usually ends up doing terribly. it's the person who picks all the jakes who wins yeah listen maybe next season we do one we just do like

you know a small league with us and it's just for funzies we all throw in like 50 bucks you can go to charity or whatever it's just bragging rights yeah and we can talk trash a little bit i'll learn i want to learn maybe we can get like you know little grease jackets or something oh yeah yeah it's like high school football oh but we're a basketball show but we could do it with basketball they make trophies for this do people play fantasy basketball oh It's everything is fantasy now. So, yeah. Listen, everyone is trying to check out these days.

There's, like, fantasy golf. There's fantasy everything. Yeah. I'm down for Drama Queens to become a sports podcast. I think that's hilarious. That would be incredible. Honestly. It would.

It'd be kind of great. It kind of would. And then you go to someone. It's like, hey, Sof, what did you think about? And I'm like, sorry, I'm in the kitchen. I got a snack. Huh? Yeah.

Like, nobody knows what's going on. That's our spin-off podcast. It's snacks and sports. with people who know very little about sports but love snacks do we have any honorable mentions I mean so if you don't do you have one okay

this is what I was going to say I remember a lot of this episode I clearly did not watch it because I watched the last one oopsie doodles but I'm going to go ahead and give my honorable mention not to the episode but to this concept

because I think us doing a fantasy league as a cast would actually be totally sick and we could probably make a lot of money for charity and I really like it. I love it. Seriously, if you wanted to go in on it, what you do is you raffle off like someone to co-manage the team with you.

There's, I mean, like, if this is actually going to do it because I've seen companies do this, a lot of people to raise money for St. Jude's, and like they raise obscene amounts of money for doing things like this. I love that. Yeah.

Let's do it. Let's go. Listen, I'm on board. Okay. Yeah, the honorable mention, I agree yourself. It's going to be our upcoming fantasy sports podcast and league that you all are going to be invited to.

Probably for a small fee that will go to a torch charity. It's a donation, guys. It's a donation. You know what that is? It's a tax deduction. It's a win-win for everybody. What do you think, Joy? Do you have something from the actual episode? I am, of course, on board with this, even though I really don't know anything about football,

but that would still be fun because I can represent all of the people who don't know much about football, but still want to engage and hang out with my friends. So I will be that person for you. I just had an idea because the name thing is terrible. it's never going to work and I can really fill a team. How about if you did it by astrological signs? Like, excuse me, my team is all Virgo's. They're sassy.

Like, that would be incredible. Great. I'll have to do a little more reading about the zodiac, but I'm into it. Because I will say, as a person who doesn't pay much attention to it, every time I hear an on point description of someone that I know based on their zodiac, I'm like, wait, they are exactly that person. Maybe, maybe there's some there there is all I'm saying. I've never heard of a league doing that, but I love it.

Oh, friends, thanks for hanging in with us. God. Next episode, season seven, episode 12, some roads lead nowhere. I mean, that's what this episode should have been titled. Oh, God. Every road led nowhere in this episode. But I'm glad the next one is going to be just as hard to find. I really hope we're on the up and up next week.

It's going to be good. It's going to be good. Tune in to find out, friends. Bye. Bye. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's O-T-H.

Or email us at Drama Queen's at I-HeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama Girl, Cheering for the right team. Drama Queen, Drama Queen. Smart girl, rough girl, fashion, but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl.

Drama Queen, Drama Queen, Drama Queen, Drama Queen. Drama, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. From prologue projects and Pushkin Industries, this is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.