Drama Queens - Haley’s Journey • EP303

Episode Date: June 13, 2022

Does life imitate art or art imitate life?   Joy gets emotional watching Haley fight to fix things with Nathan.  Find out why this resonates with her so intensely and hear all the character parallels the Queens see in their own lives.  And, once again, OTH predicts the future as Peyton starts her podcast!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens.

welcome to the show everyone welcome to the show people we didn't even oh my gosh what a great episode another episode we love we all may or may not have been in tears at the end and by that I mean we definitely were yeah 100% I like literally need to take a break to go cry but I feel like you know you feel like acidy in your chest because it's just like it's so real can it just be better already you know like you're Watching Haley struggle episode after episode after episode, you just want it to be better already, and we are not getting that instant gratification, and it feels like heartburn, literally. I'm so glad, though, because that's real life.

Yeah. And, you know, I will say, this episode title feels like it's Haley's journey. Y'all, it's season three, episode three, and the title is, first day on the brand new planet. And she is certainly in a whole new world. This aired originally October 19th, 2005. And my God, we've said it once before. We'll say it 100 times more. We love season three.

Yeah. Best season. This was really hard for me to watch. Baby. I have been in this scenario in my real life in, you know, I mean, not like exactly, obviously. But like, enough. You mean, you didn't get married at 16? But there are enough similarities in different relationships that I've had where it's like I've just, I've been in that feeling of like, can we fix it? Can I get fixed? Can I do anything to fix this? And constantly feel, well, first of all, constantly choosing men where I'm, I always feel like I'm the one who's fucking up because I'm, I'm just don't have a great picker in the first place. So like my, my track record is not great. You have a sympathetic picker is what you have.

have and shouldn't. That's true. But constantly being in the position where I feel like I'm trying to fix things. How do I fix it? How do I fix it? How do I fix it? I'm the one that f*** up. Even though most of the time it probably hasn't been me, but I put myself in that position.

I cast myself in that role. Yeah. I mean, it's true. Ultimately, what it means for me while I'm watching this episode is that I have a muscle memory of feeling those feelings. whether they came from a real place or whether they came from a place of being convinced of something that wasn't true.

It doesn't really matter. The feelings existed in my body and I'm having to relive them again as I empathize with Nathan and Haley. And of course, I physically actually was there. And so I have muscle memory from that's doing those scenes and from real life. And I'm like I'm actually getting pretty emotional.

It's kind of hard to watch. It's hard to watch. Baby, did you know, though, like in real life relationships, Obviously, we shot this stuff when we were really young. Did you see the connection between, like, fact and fiction while you were in it? Or are you only just seen it now? I don't know. I think back then it was just a storyline.

Yeah. And I had been, you know, like the boy I loved in high school and loved me back. And so I think I probably drew on that. But you're so young and the future's still so full of hope and all the possibilities that are coming down. the line. You don't, you know, I didn't connect it to then, but now being in my life where I am and, you know, still not having found the relationship that I dream of and maybe never will and maybe that's okay. And maybe it's okay to be single and, like, there's just so many layers to where my life is now, but it still taps into a longing and a hope that I have. But, you know,

the older you get, the, like, the harder it seems to be to find. But when you're young, it's like, oh, yeah. But you know what I want to say, as, you know, you've got two of your best friends on this call who figured out who their people are. But like, Hillary, you, and we've talked about this a lot, you have always been so discerning and you were on your shit very early. Like, Joy, you and I have been figuring things out. We process a little more slowly. And so to be, you know, we've looked at you for 12 years and like seen your relationship, the two of us. And for me, two and a half years in, what I can say and what was so what's something I'll be oh man shit no I'm going to cry like something I will you're making me cry don't do it something I will always cherish in my

friendships with both of you is that we've held mirrors up for each other for a very long time and both of you have said versions to me of what you just said Hillary which is it's about discernment and sympathy. And I know I said this on a podcast here a long time ago when my dad was like, no more sick puppies about the men I was picking to like fix and help and save and mother and all of the shit that's not your responsibility as a partner. When I, and it wasn't easy, but when I said, okay, if I have often picked through a lens of response to serve or sympathy. How can I understand that? And it was, well, I'm a romantic. I'm a storyteller. I believe in people. I'm an optimist. So I often fall in love with potential. It is not as a partner, my job, or

your job to help another person realize their potential. You can support someone in realizing their potential. You can't make them do it. And when I shifted the place that I pick from or that I was to see potential from to being not sympathetic but inspired. I went, oh, oh, and it's not lost on me, nor any of my friends, the person I went, oh, about, I'd known for 10 years. You already were friends with him, Sophia. And everybody was like, welcome to your own party, you idiot. And I was like, well, cool, I'm glad I'm here.

So I say that only because, like, I hate that the world has made us think that as we get older, we're like stuck in our ways or that it gets harder to find your person. I just think you get smarter and you know yourself better and you have the capability to shift the place you choose from in a way now as this joy today that you sure is shit didn't have five years ago. let alone 10 years ago. So the woman, I mean, even what we've had the good fortune of, you know, we do the podcast, but we have a lot of time together on these Zooms, guys, you all at home don't get to hear. And I'm not sorry. Sorry, kids. Like, what we get to watch, like what I've witnessed you do in the last year is so, like, earthshaking.

Remember the first podcast and Joy was like, I don't want to do it. I'm uncomfortable. And now you're like queen of the segways and, like, killing the intros and all the ad reads. Like, you're killing it. You have to be as sympathetic with yourself as you are with the people that you have dated. And that's really hard for oldest and only kids to do to say like, no, get out of my bedroom. This is my room. You know what I mean?

Like, you have to take on that oldest. kid energy. And even though you guys don't have like, you know, typical younger siblings, you're the oldest kid in your family and that's what you got to lean into. These are the rules. These are the boundaries. You're not the only. Because only kids are like, I've got to do all the things. I've got to take care of everyone because I'm the only one. Whereas oldest- It all falls on me. And it's like, no. Oldest kids, it's a very slight shift. But I want you to lean into your oldest kid energy, that's just like, you guys are being assholes right now. Stop.

Stop. Stop. Yeah. I just, like, I'm excited for this joy to find her person. Because if you had settled, if you had settled for, you know. If you had settled for the newsboy cap, I was going to be pissed about it. Yeah. Like, you, you just wouldn't be happy.

and so I believe in you and like we learn our lessons when we learn them we can't yeah like we didn't all find our Jeffrey 12 years ago but like y'all I didn't even this took training come on it's a yeah it's a it's a I don't know it's really hard to hear from your friends kids about how to have a baby. It's hard to hear from your friends who have like a kick-ass career how to just wait your turn. It's hard to hear from your married friends how to find a relationship. That's really hard to hear from the person who has what you want. That's a great point. I can say though, you know, something that's been a really, that's been really great for me in this, in this journey of being single, especially over the last 10 years.

I mean, I've dated on and off, but the, I was always really boy crazy when I was a kid. kid and always looking for validation in that specific zone, which probably certainly led me into relationships that I shouldn't have been in in the first place or, you know, because I just was so desperate for approval. And being now in this place where I've, I have raised a child on my own. Yeah. Probably most very, very likely with undiagnosed ADHD, myself, not her. you know which also is if you have it you know how shocking that is to be able to like raise a polite kind human she's spectacular with a with a you know with a constant mind that just doesn't stop and can't be still and you know i mean that's that there's a lot that's really hard about that um and it's the the the idea of the romantic

relationship the perfect romantic relationship is really fallen off the pedestal it's really come down come crashing down in a lot of ways. And it wasn't always easy, but the way that it came down. And now I feel so, I love my life. I'm so content. I love being single. I love my freedom. I love, and yes, there are days when it's hard and feels lonely.

And yeah, that's hard sometimes. But ultimately, I've become so comfortable with myself. And I love my life and I love who I am. that my bar has become much higher and my, you know, and so like in order to come into this life, a man's really got a, he's, I don't, it's going to feel like a miracle. I mean, which is why sometimes it feels sad because I'm like, that guy's never fucking out there. There's no way anybody's coming into this space. But it's okay. You know, look, not everybody's meant to be paired up with someone and I'm actually okay with that too. But, you know, I say that, but then I'm like, weeping and

the end of this episode. Like, I want, Nate and an alien to be together. But it's because Joy, it was that little tiny thing of putting his hand on her back. They got me. Because what you want is a shorthand.

That's the part of intimacy that's so exciting. It's not the sex. It's not like going on trips and shit. It's the shorthand where there is one other person in the space that knows exactly what to do or exactly what to say or exactly just how to be. And that shorthand, I think, is what is so attractive about Nathan and Haley, but it's also

like kind of a weird thing to explain on a dating app. Do you know what I mean? It's like, how do I say I'm looking for someone that can just read my mind, you know? And that sounds like a total bitch. Yeah. But that's what you're looking for. I want the person who can make eye contact with me across a party and we'll both giggle because we're being a little rude, but it's cute like is that that's what you say on your profile i don't know it's hilarious let's do that then i know but nathan and haley like this is tough it's tough to watch her um trying and trying and trying and doing what can i do i how do i make you love me how do i make you love me and then have him say we're getting a divorce but maybe something will happen in the next year and then he shows up and then he

puts his hand on her back it's like there's so many mixed messages there's so many emotional it's an emotional roller coaster. It's, it's really, really, really tough. Well, I'm also realizing as we're talking about this moment we find ourselves in and, you know, the things that you're processing and what what this episode in particular, especially after episode two, kind of triggered in how Haley's trying to undo a thing she did, you also are like, oof, I got in trouble for things I didn't do. classic gas lighting, all those things mix up in our bodies. But I would also imagine, like, it's got to be, look, we all feel the pressure of the love story, of the fairy tale ending, right? All people do, and especially all women do. It's literally what we make for a living. Yes. Like, we are part of the problem. But it must make, it must be crazy making to have been part of the, iconic love story couples that last the entire series, the only relationship that last like the

entire series. Yeah. Like, good God. What a lot of pressure for you, for young actress joy figuring out her life to constantly have her life be held up against the fictional fairy tale of Nathan and Haley. Like, that's a lot of pressure. Yeah. That's true. Gosh, I didn't think about that. I've never thought about it until this moment. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture.

It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for the kind of years. you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you guys think because this job was such a big chunk of our formative years, do you think it changed like who we dated? Like, I know for a fact. Yeah. Because Peyton cried so much, I tried so hard to be. so fun outside of work and like party girl outside of work. And I turned my house into a frat

house. And so I just needed to date people who let me do that. You know? Yeah. That definitely factored in to my dating choices because I was like, I've got to be the most fun ever. And then the second I escaped, I was like, I need to find someone that would kick someone's ass for me. And like, that was. Yeah. And that's what I mentioned. I really, it's crazy how your job can affect. these, like, personal choices. Of course it does. And, like, I know for sure there was kind of like a trifecta of things at work. First of all, we were isolated in a town where all of the people around us were either

18 or 65. That's true. Like, there was no one kind of young and single in our real age range around. And so that made it weird. Then we were on TV, which made it weirder. And at least for me, like, Hillary, when you're like, oh, I had to combat Peyton, I had to be the most fun person in the room, for me going through betrayal of my trust and gaslighting in my earlier years, I became the person, especially as I was playing

Brooke, who could never trust anybody who always got lied to, and I had been lied to. I became a person who would not date someone. I didn't know. I had to, like, I would go on dates, whatever, but I'd always get spooked at the first red flag, and every couple of years I'd get in a relationship with someone I'd observed for years and seen how they treated other people, other women.

Like, even one of the formative relationships, in my 20s, we were together for three years, but we had dated off and on years before. And then we were friends. And then we started dating again. I always had to... So we met through a, like, romantic introduction. But I could not really be in a relationship without vetting somebody because my trust didn't exist.

I'm still that way. I didn't have it. That's why it's so hard to find a relationship because I'm like, you know, I'm looking at the pool of my friends and I'm like, well, either I know you too well, no way. Or it's somebody that just... It's like, I don't know. It's just not in my, it's not there. Like, I've, I've, yeah.

And so to build a new, build all that newness. Like, hi, nice to meet you. Let's wait. Let's know each other for like two or three years before I'm willing to actually go on a date with you. You ready to be my friend? Like, that's what I want to be on a dating app for. Like, be my friend. I'm just going to make a bunch of friends.

If you can break through the friend zone, I'll marry you. Yeah. That's what Grant did. The zone did everybody. FriendZone did. I was the one that was friends. No one would date me. I had crushes on like everybody on our show and everyone was like, oh, hell, you're like a fucking dude. And so when I met Jeff and he was like, do you want to have a baby? I was like, yes, sir. And then I was pregnant a month later. So that's all just to say, there's a different plan for everyone. And, you know, that like tracks in the narrative of our show. Maybe that's why our show lands with people, because you do have. high school sweethearts and then you do have like Karen and Dan who are an example of like yes don't be with your high school sweetheart that's a terrible idea you know we've got all these

levels of comfort and all these different pockets that people can find themselves in and so it's yeah it is weird to go back and watch this for the first time as an adult and see parts of our self and are like our adult decision making processes yeah in these characters. I'm seeing for the first time why Haley and Nathan resonates with adults so much too and not just kids because adults, I as an adult, I'm looking at this going, oh my gosh, this is what an audience must have felt. They have been there. Women, people have been in a position in relationships where they do something imperfectly. It affects the other person in the relationship in a negative way. And then they cannot find a way to meet back together. And it's just

that struggle of how do we find each other again. That's a basic issue in so many relationships. Yeah. I get it. Like I see the pain now. Well, and figuring out, you know, figuring out how to diffuse a bomb together requires so much willingness to show up and be vulnerable. It requires learning skills.

Like, it is impossible to go through a life in a relationship and not get your heartbroken a couple of times. Yeah. That's true in friendships. that's true in marriages. And it's like... Even in the same relationship multiple times. Oh, my God.

Of course. Every three years you're a different person. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, to learn how to communicate, I mean, my God, even to go through something, you know, with your person, with your best friend. And then you're like, how did this happen? I'm so upset.

And your person looks at you and goes, wait, what do you mean? and you go, do you even know me? You know, and you're sitting here having this realization and you go, oh, even the person who knows me the best can't know my every thought. It is a constant coming together to communicate. I don't know. It's crazy to me that we are all able to do this, to be in relationship.

I mean, we've been friends for 20 years, you guys. Like, what does that even mean? The shit we've all had to talk about, but that's what you do when you love people. And so I do think you're right, Joy. I think it's why Nathan and Haley resonate with people at every kind of age. And what I find fascinating is the ways we bring our own personal stuff to the story. Like you're going, he's giving her all these mixed messages.

It's making you think of something from your life. And I'm watching the show going, I really love that even though he's willing to be honest and vulnerable to the point that it might hurt her, he's not keeping anything from her but when she's in a moment of struggle he'll still show up he'll still be there for her and you're like what a mixed message and i'm like oh he's just being a real gentleman and i was like i was like you look at us we're all different humans we all i don't know it's so much easier to stop loving someone if they're an asshole if he's just a jerk it just goes cold then you can stop loving that person eventually but if they if they stay in your life and they keep showing up and being nice and gracious and gentle and they're like, I don't love you. Yeah, like, I don't love you. I don't like be with you,

but I'll definitely still be your friend. It's like, fuck off. Do you know what I say right now? I think, I think I smell a country song, Joy. I think what's being described here is your next album. So it's happening. It's happening. I would like to pre-order. Go away. I don't want to be your friend now. Go away. I don't want to be your friend is the song I know. need you to write next. I love this. Yeah, you know, our show

certainly hits pressure points. And I think there's stuff for all of us that just like, kind of hits too close for home and close to home. And I hate that this is like triggery for you, Joy. It's okay.

Is there anything that feels good in it? What feels good? Well, lots of, I loved this episode. I mean, I loved so much about this episode. It felt like a season one kind of an episode. Thank you. I loved Haley, kind of taking it all in stride and just keep in showing up. And like, I'm going to figure it out.

It's going to be okay. She's not mopey and pouty, which I was glad that they let me run with that choice, that she didn't end up just being like a sad sack, that it was like, okay, yeah, well, everybody hates me. All right. I just kind of moving on with it. But I liked that. And I loved the predictions.

It was really nice to see the brick coming out of the wall. Yay. And Lucas and Haley doing their predictions. I love that. I loved it. And we had an exciting moment with Peyton at the end starting her podcast. God. Yes.

Can we talk about that, please? Can we move off of my bleeding heart and on to Peyton's podcast? Well, listen. And Peyton was just set in the table so that we could talk about your bleeding heart. That's right. There we go. Like, I don't know how aware you guys were even of this whole, like, podcast idea. But I had to go in when we normally do our ADR, our additional dialogue recording.

I would have to go in for extra time and record podcasts. They're out there on the internet. It's like they're on the interweb? Babe. I didn't know. They wrote these huge scripts, and I would have to read these scripts. Like, I was just, like, talking off the cuff. But they didn't pay you.

They sure didn't pay me anything extra. So, uh, that is unacceptable. What is it, punkin? I mean, the website was pung and disorderly. I don't know if that's what the podcasts were under. But, yeah, I would have to go record these things. And I was so confused. I was like, who's just going to listen to a person talking?

Like, that's weird. But I had grown up listening to radio shows. Like, NPR every Sunday night at 8 p.m. Would do Laman Abner and Gunsmoke and the Baby Snook show. And, you know, suspense was my favorite. Because it was this, like, you know, thriller. And they would scare you with the sounds and things. And so I remember, like, understanding the value of audio.

But a teenager talking about her feelings felt like, what? Yeah. Yeah. What? That's funny. How did it? What did they do with it? Did it?

Baby, it went on the internet. They created the real website, Punkin Disorderly or whatever it is, and posted. It still exists? It was so they could blur the line between fact and fiction. So they would roll it out, like when our episodes would roll out. And were there a lot of listeners? Is there like a record of those episodes? and what, I mean, did anything, did it spin into anything?

When did it stop? I have so many questions. Yeah, this, whereas what we were talking about earlier sounded like a country song, this seems like a great opportunity for fans to help us. Because I have a lot of idea. I was also going to say, you know who we could probably ask, since Warner Brothers is now run by women, we could probably call up some of the executives over there and be like, hey, we're one of your pillar properties, right?

Do you have any of this data laying around? Yeah. Also, do you have a link? Could we listen? Yeah. That would be fun. I'd love to listen to Peyton's podcast. You know, we should listen to Payton's podcast and then do a podcast about the podcast

and then do a podcast about the podcast and then do a podcast about the podcast. Like podception. No, I'm just being it out. Just worlds in, worlds in worlds. You know, you're a riddle wrapped in a mystery wrapped inside a bitch. That's me. Sorry. Sherry.

We haven't done the recap of this episode for anyone who didn't watch the actual episode. Oh my God, we didn't read the synopsis. Okay, it's the first day of school. Lucas and Haley make predictions on their year. That's the little brick that goes in the wall and the tin. Nathan makes a final decision on his and Haley's marriage, which is what we've been talking about. He says, you know, I don't want an annulment. I want a divorce.

Oh, my God. With a question mark, though. With a question mark. But, you know, let's see what happens in a year. It's like really, but okay, we'll get there. Lucas and Peyton find out why Ellie was buying drugs, which is that she says she has cancer, and the marijuana helps with the symptoms.

And Dan finds out the truth of Lucas's involvement in the fire through a very intense scene in the gym with Dan choking Lucas and Lucas. It's a salt. Making crazy faces and Peyton like getting hit in the head and like attacking Dan. And it was so much. Okay.

And Lucas and Brooke continue to date non-exclusively, maybe, because Lucas definitely calls her bluff and, you know, game on, Brooke Davis, he says. That's right. And then Whitey announces he's retiring from coaching after Karen shows up and really saves the day when Dan tries to get Whitey fired. It was a packed episode. Mouth is back.

That was great to see him running around with his microphone. The boys are back. The boys are back in town. Thank God. Yeah, it was fun. You know what I did really love? I loved that, I mean, listen, this relationship stuff is personal to everyone for every reason. I love that as we see it through these characters as young people trying to find their way,

you have this sort of wise sage energy in Whitey. And even though he's being threatened by Dan, he chooses to spend his time in his very ornery way, continuing to pass out detention slips and just walk naked. Nathan and Haley in detention together every day after school. I love this. I loved it. And he kicks that other boy out. He's like, go home.

So nobody else who even got detention is going to do the time. Just the two of you. I loved that. I love seeing them in detention. The duality of him trying to do this thing that goes so far above and beyond what a teacher's responsibilities are. You know, like so many teachers have been dealing with crazy school board meetings. this year. They've been dealing with a lack of resources to deal with a pandemic, a lack of resources, like, period in the classroom. There's been so much crazy shit thrown at teachers.

And you see a character like Whitey where that's not his job description to care about the relationship of these like two kids that shouldn't have even gotten married the first place. You know, he's there to coach basketball and teach PE and be home by five o'clock. That's it. And he does so much more. And he's so much more involved in the community. And he's involved in the emotional development of these kids. And to see him defended in a school board meeting, I hope people everywhere bring that kind of energy for their former teachers, for their current teachers.

Like, teachers are so worthy of defense. And Karen does a great job of hitting those notes in this episode. Yeah. And you know what I love, too? She also hits the reality. of raising kids, she says, they don't deserve anything. They've got to earn it. The person who deserves better is whitey. And I was like, God, that's good, because it's true. They're just boys playing sports. Like, you either winner, you don't grow up and get over it. But this man has

earned your respect and your consideration and your empathy as a leader for your boys. And I just, oh, she played that so beautifully. I tell you, that's some good advice. I think a lot of parents' myths and a lot of this upcoming generation, I see this a lot of disrespect for adults. There's a lot of just, I guess maybe it's the fact that social media provides a space where you feel like your voice is important. And, you know, if you're a teenager and you haven't earned a position of respect in any way

to just be able to kind of have access to hundreds of listening years. And it's like it's got to kind of really mess with your sense of your place in the world. Like what have you earned and what haven't you earned? And I think it's, I think that's really good advice that Karen's giving. Like you, yes, you exist and we are glad that you're on this planet. Now earn it. Yeah, I think it's like when you think, think about those theories of non-attachment. Like, when you say that, I don't know why this is what

my brain is choosing to word vomit, but here we are. And I have your captive ears, so deal with it. But it makes me think about, like, studying, you know, all sorts of faiths, as all of us have discussed a lot. Like, so much of the theory of Eastern philosophy is, everything is sacred and nothing matters. Like, it's every being is precious and you're just one of many. Like, you are, you have God in you, and also every single thing in the universe is one and is the same and is equal. And I love the duality of that, recognizing that you are precious and also that you're

one of many, and they're both true. And I think when the scales get tipped in one direction, when you don't think you're worthy. It can be damaging. And when you think the world revolves around you, you're an asshole. Like, you've got to have some balance on the scale. And Dan is the kind of person who thinks he's one of one and his son is one of one. And it's toxic. And Karen is kind of the person tipping the scale back in the other direction. And you need that balance. Yeah. Well, she's doing it have to two ways she she combats his whole you know narrative about whitey publicly but then privately she's giving advice to nathan that is so vital because she says to him she's like you wanted

her home you wanted her home more than anything in the whole wide world and here she is what are you going to do about it yeah and you know let when you look at like the relationship between between the two of them, it's his dad's ex-girlfriend, you know? Like, it's his dad's potential Haley, you know? How different would Dan be if he'd stayed with Karen? Wow. The grounded girl, the girl next door. Will he turn into his father if he doesn't get back with Haley?

Do you know what I mean? Like, there's all these kids. Yes. It makes me mad at Nathan, because. I'm looking at this going, you got exactly, like you asked for this is exactly what you wanted. That's right. Everything you wanted, she's here, now she's here. And how is it her fault that you couldn't hold out hope long enough, that you couldn't

like just hang on? And honestly, what was it like weeks? Like what? Like three months? A couple, a few months. Yeah. Oh, guys, I would be a kicked hornets nest if someone put me through that for three months. I'd be so mad.

Oh, I don't know. Even if I was in love. I don't know. I don't know. I think the reason I love it so much, not obviously having to have played either of your roles. I would be a kick torn its nest. Oh, I might be so mad.

It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer. because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls

became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I love that as a viewer, to me, they're both right. Yeah. I'm like, Nathan, what are you doing? She's finally back. And then I'm like, oof, but he's really hurt, and she's going to have to prove to him. She's never going to hurt him again. Like, I weirdly agree with them both. And I think that's why we feel so invested in them as a couple because you really root for them both,

even when the things you're rooting for sometimes could be painted as opposing feelings. I'm very impatient with Nathan. I'm going to say it. Because there is a deep... Because you know she loves him. There is a deep Peyton Sawyer vein in me. And having had so much death, right? The thing that is just the constant drumbeat in my head is you're going to die.

You're going to die. Everyone's going to die. We get this much time. And it's so small. Why the fuck are you wasting it? Yeah. Don't waste it. But a 16-year-old doesn't know that.

Okay. Well, here's Aunt Hillary. You're right. to come in and ruin it for you, kids. You get this much time. Don't spend it sulking. Don't spend it choosing misery. You know?

It's so true. It's hard to see that when you're young. It's really hard to see it. It feels like you have so much more time. Yeah. And it can often be a first big loss that right sizes your brain about what time means. Yeah. I remember having like this major, it's so deep.

dumb the two of us now even when we think about it are like how stupid like major two rams just budding heads conflict with one of my best friends from college and we were both just like petulant you know 20 somethings in our corners being like you apologize first no you apologize first like we were just so mad and then her dad died and it lit nothing mattered i got on a plane out of Wilmington on the first flight out on Saturday morning and was at her house. And I was like, we can cry or we can hit each other. I don't really give a shit. What do you need? I brought lunch. Oh, yeah. And it was over. Like, our fight was over. And it had seemed so important four days before. And we've never spoken of it since, you know, other than to make fun of each other for being

stupid. Like, we, it really does, I think, sometimes when you're young, take like that emotional car crash moment to to just readjust all those things in your brain. Yeah. In practice. Takes practice. Like earnestly being able to address things and decide what's important. When you're a kid, you don't know how to decide what's important. Like, is the kiss between Haley and Chris Keller important or is it the tour that's important?

Like, being able to pinpoint things is something that takes practice. But you have to want to do that work. Yeah. You have to want to do that work. And humility takes practice. Like, being willing to admit that the real thing, when any time there's a fight between two people, is that you're both kind of right and you're both kind of wrong.

Yeah, always. That takes practice. Being like, yeah, here's what I can own. And I love you. I'm developing theories. about Nathan right now, which is I'm wondering if, you know, part of the reason why he was drawn to Haley was the safety of it, that she was so stable and he grew up in such an unstable environment that there was something that was really stable about her that he put on his own pedestal of this is going to save me. Her stability is going to save me. And when she decided to bail on her own stability, because she needed to go, you know, check other things out for herself, it turned him upside down inside out because he didn't, her stability was what he was relying on. He didn't have any of his own. That feels like a betrayal. This isn't what I bought.

I bought eggs and you gave me cheese. What am I going to do with this? Not her fault. You know, I mean, that was. And I picked someone not like my mom who was always leaving. And then you left. Right. So no wonder. Their marriage was supposed to be the opposite of Dan and Deb's marriage. And then suddenly they were in a Dan and Deb marriage. In his mind. Yeah. I'm not saying, yes, thank you.

Not in reality, but to him, he's going, well, she's gone all the time and doesn't pick up my phone calls and I'm becoming this bitter, angry man. So no wonder the muffling memory inside him is going, oh, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm never going to do this again. And so no wonder he's got walls up with her. Yeah. I mean, oof. I'm getting it. I'm getting it.

And you know what? I loved because, yeah, man, I think I see so much of where Nathan comes from because of what Brooke was going through. And because, you know, me as Sophia sees what both Nathan and Brooke were going through. Yeah. I loved that we got that scene in the apartment. I forgot. Like, I knew we had great scenes in their joy. But that moment for Haley and Brooke, when Haley's mad and, like, throwing laundry on the bed.

Oh, yeah. And it's all about the scrunchies and the things because Brooke is just, like, masking, deflecting, I'm having fun. Mm-hmm. Oh, is she being the party girl? Is she being the party girl? Oh, yeah. Is she being the fun girl? Is the party girl sad deep down?

Yeah, oh, my God. That's so crazy. It's a mask. And it was so interesting watching us because I watched Browellie. Brooke, see that Haley was having a hard time. And she was like, you got to get on my train. Come here. Through.

Yes. I threw your arms over my shoulders. That was perfect. And that line, this is where it comes from. I loved that. I loved it. Sometimes people play hard to get because they need to know the other person's feelings are real. Yeah.

And I'm admitting to you that I know that's what Nathan's doing because it's what I'm doing. That's what you're doing. Oh. I love it. I loved it. That was such a beautiful scene. I love Brooks' like mom energy around everybody right now. She's just stepping up and being like, all right, listen, everybody around here needs moms.

I'm going to do it. And then I'm going to have my own fun on the side. But also she's taking care of herself. She's taking care of the little girl inside of herself, making sure that all the ducks are in a row before she launches herself into another, you know, open heart situation with a guy. But I also really loved Lucas decorating her locker. And doing the little romantic things that are like, I love you, I'm here. I'm going to do all the little things for you, too. It's not just the grand sweeping gestures, you know.

That was really sweet. It was really sweet. Guys, I have been at the butt end of all of the Brooke Lucas fan base, like, forever. Like, Peyton's the worst. Brooke and Lucas forever, forever. And I guess I've always just had to, like, defend myself. So it could never really just sit back and watch the Brooke and Lucas. of it all, I totally get it. I totally, totally get it. I can see why you're frustrated with

Peyton because there is a real magic to Brooke and Lucas and this cleverness that the both of them exhibit and they challenge each other and they're flirty and they're cute with each other. And they're figuring out at the same time. You know, Brooke doesn't know how to say what she wants. Lucas doesn't really know how to say what she wants. And they're just kind of tiptoeing to that line. It's really fun to watch. And the scene in the apartment where he's trying to get you to be his like, girlfriend. Exclusive girlfriend. So cute. And you're trying to just like make out. He's got something you want and you've got something he wants. It's a very cute version of a duel.

Yes, that's a perfect scene. It was perfect. Yeah, I loved it. And I love that they wrote him leaving and me being so surprised. Yeah. You know, the comedy was great. And it's funny that you say that, Hillary, because as you were saying that, I was like, oh, my God, this is how I feel. Because I've, I, which guys, we've talked about this and we'll talk about it forever.

It doesn't make any sense to attack your two favorite. girlfriends, for being the same guy's girlfriend at some point. Like, I've been on the, on the butt end of the, of the Lucas and Peyton fans for so long. Maybe I'm sorry. I've leaned so hard into being like, yeah, Lucas and Peyton, like, Lucas and Payton are awesome. I don't have any complaints about Lucas and Peyton. I've so been like, I'm on the end game team.

Leave me out of this. And I'm like, oh, no, this was a good. Like, this was a cute on-screen relationship. This was a really good teenage experience for two people to learn about hurt and honesty and trying again and integrity. And I get why people like it. Yeah.

They're growing together. You know what I mean? It's like, you know how sometimes when we enter into relationships, the one person is like, oh, I'm going to be the pillar and you can lean on me and I'll take care of you. Yeah. Brooke and Lucas are really figuring it out

together and they're dealing with like the stuff that's very teenage. You know? That's what I was going to say. Heyley and Nathan are doing like grown-up shit which isn't necessarily relatable to everyone. Yeah.

But the flirty thing of like literally all I want you to do is kiss my neck right now and you're making it weird. You're making it weird. Yeah. And I think what's interesting is because Peyton for so long was dealing with such adult things, Lucas could be his most mature sort of intellectual self-with-her.

Everyone's being 30. Why? Well, no, but so many people were like, that's real. But I think it's all real. But Lucas and Brooke are in a very teenage, innocent experience together. And Lucas and Peyton had these very, like, deep-feeling grown-up experiences. together. All trauma bonding. Well, but it's like, look, it's just experience.

I'm just looking to smash. And so it's interesting to realize like, oh, yes, I would bet you that if, you know, the fans looked inward, they would say, oh, yeah, I relate to the teenage thing. Like, that's my ideal thing versus I wanted the ideal adult, you know. Here's my thing, though. People just respond to what they respond to. Do you think that the younger fan base is like, more attracted to that deep, grown-up, emotional, I'm going to hold your hand thing.

And then we as, as, like, older people are looking at the teenage. And we're like, that's so fun. Do that. I wonder. I'm so happy to not see Lucas being creepy anymore because he was so creepy with Peyton. Remember the first season how we were like, oh, you're made's too much, back off? Speaking of creepy. When you start dating, you are a creep. You just are.

You mess up. Hence mouth. Hence mouth being a total. Oh, my God. Poor mouth. He just can't rain it in. I know. We all become stalkers when we start dating.

We're in our phones, stalking people on their social media pages. Just checking up on everyone, calling friends. And mouth is totally heartbroken. What else is he going to do? Well, yeah. By the way, can you imagine if we'd been in our 20s dating with Instagram? No, no, no, no, no. Can't imagine.

No, no. So it's, it's cute to realize that Mouth's having his little podcast, it's like kind of the first space where someone could vent inappropriately in public where now you see people like posting stuff about their exes online and you're like, oh, just don't. It's a bad look. You're going to delete this later. Yeah, just don't, don't do it. Yeah.

I, um, I, as a fan of the show, am really feeling Brooke and Lucas this. episode and the teenage stuff. I just, I think, I think it's the light part of the episode and we're dealing with so much heavy stuff. Like, Dan's out of his mind with the dastard. Oh, my God. He's a full sociopath. He shows up at the beach party.

He's like, last episode, he was like on the beach when Lucas was on the beach, just having a run in the morning. Then he's at the beach party breaking a glass in his hand, which, by the way, a huge whiskey tumbler breaking it in your hand. I mean, what is he? Come on. Come on. And then he's like showing up at Whitey's office and he's showing up at the gym and he's just every, like it must be. Charon's cafe, he went to just recently. He's, I mean, he's just wandering around all day long looking for ways to go be an asshole. How exhausting is that? We're back to the, to the Dan Scott who like metaphorically has trackers on everybody's cars. Like, how do you know where all these people are? You're a creep. And he just, he's just creeping around town.

being scary, and then he chokes his child. And by the way, I couldn't believe Hillary, he palmed your forehead and shoved you backwards by your face? Yeah, that was a little girl. Okay, can we talk about that, you guys? Talk about it. Yeah, I hated it. We weren't there.

Tell us everything. I hated it. I hated it so much. The scene in the gym. Because any time a fight scene has to go on for so long that. an actor in the scene can get all of their dastardly exposition out, it looks fake, because that's not how fights work in real life. Not that I fight.

Or maybe I have. No, but Peyton, Peyton is scrappy. She would have come back real quick with a kick in the groin. Peyton and Nikki got into a fight in season one. Like, Peyton's already been in physical altercations on this show, so we know that she knows to, like, pull the hair, punch the neck, like, do the things. poke the eyes out. Yeah. And when a scene is designed for the camera and for the lines instead of for the intention of the scene, it doesn't work. And so they really wanted to get that 360 shot of a steady cam going all the way around us while Dan was like, you know, spouting off whatever he's doing. But what that meant is that I was only allowed to hold on to Paul's arm and kind of like,

and like, quit it, mister. You would have been slapping him in the face, like. Yeah, I would have, yeah, had fingernails in his eyeballs and in his ears and like ripping chunks of hair out while he's choking a child, you know? Chad's got his tongue hanging out of his mouth because he's supposed to be getting choked. And Payton's just like, quit it. You stop it. You make meaning.

You're right. The scene was so long for, for. Dan's exposition that I literally had the thought, because the camera was on that side of his face. I go, why didn't the director let Hillary scratch his face, slap his face, like try to poke him in the eyes? Like, it was so strange. And I just looked on our breakdown, and I don't mean this critically. It just is interesting to your point. It's designed for camera. This episode is another episode directed by Billy Dixon, who we love, but he was our DP. And so he's thinking, I want to do this circular shot, don't block the shot. But what it does is it suspends the belief in the fight

because you're like, well, there's a third person there. Why can't I see her? Yeah. It's a tricky line to walk. As actors, it's important that we, you know, when we show up, we have to consider all these things and we have to speak up and say this, I'm, I mean, I know I say this a lot on sets, but I'll get to set and we'll start blocking something. And I'm like, this doesn't make sense. And here's all the reasons why. And then the DP and the director and, you know, the AD, everybody's like, oh, God, now we're the worst. We've to rehearse again. It's going to take longer.

You're the worst. But I'm like, but it's not going to be believable. Do you want it to look like shit? Or do you want people to actually believe the story? What do you want? And for me, too, I am such a people pleaser that it is so much harder for me to say, I don't like your idea to someone who I really love. You know, like I love. And, like, it's not like he was going to leave our show and go away, you know, like he was going to go back to be in D.P. the next episode. And so I couldn't, I like him. I'm not going to tell him, I think your shot's dumb. Not everybody has great ideas all the time. It's okay. Like, even the best people have dumb ideas sometimes. You know, you have to try him and see if it works. This scene didn't do it for me. 20 years later, I'm still like, God, I should have, I should have done something. But what's also true,

Ricky is sometimes you have a feeling, you're going, I should be hitting him. And they're going, no, it looks great on camera. Yeah. And you see it and you're like, oh, man, you know, every, people have different beliefs in what makes something great. And I think for us, we're obviously watching this show as actors going, yeah, but you would have slapped him. But it's like you're going, but my face is going to be on the camp.

Like, nobody's going to be looking at anything except my face. And if you put me in a position where I look down. because I can't sell the scene because the camera is doing something that's inhibiting my ability to do a good job, then I look dumb. At the end of the day, I'm the one that looks dumb. Yeah. It's hard. I just want to hear you say that to a director.

I'm the one who looks dumb, mister. I'm just so confused about some of the adulting in this episode because, okay, when there is an arson and, you know, like Dan's flage. flipping through this arson report, there would be an investigation, and there would be people, like, constantly at the site and, like, digging into Dan's life, who would want to kill you. They would be the ones questioning Karen. Like, there's zero police presence around this major crime. That's a major crime.

Yeah. The other thing is Peyton's dad is finally home. They have this, like, lovely little heart to heart. But then she doesn't tell them that her ex-boyfriend's dad just, like, face. palmed her? Like that that's something that you tell your mom and dad.

Like I was physically assaulted by an adult today. The choking and like almost watching your ex-boyfriend slash really good friend like almost die in front of you and the adrenaline of trying to stop that from happening.

You wouldn't just go home and be like I'm going to go sit and watch traffic lights for a while, man. I just really need to. What are we doing? Take a load off. I mean, it's an attempted murder. Like,

Dan's mad that someone tried to murder him. So then he tried to murder someone to make up for it? It's very insane. This is our secret kids. You too, miss Sawyer. What? Yeah, I don't like it. Same.

Do better grownups. Do better. Do better. Guys, this was a shocked full episode. There was so much stuff here. What have we missed? I cannot, can we end on a high note? Because I know we have a lot to say about Dan that's negative.

because he's being a sociopath, so it's warranted. But guys, when not a surf kicked in at the end and always love started, oh, my God, it made my heart explode. And over you guys putting your new predictions in that for the first time you did on the first day of school instead of before, and everyone just like really digging into their feelings and learning to express that song. It's like, I feel it in my bones. It makes me so happy. We're growing. I love that.

It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something. something we've been doing for a kind of years, you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner

in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world. Influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. From Bree, Brian Greenberg. If Brian Greenberg never left the show, do you think Jake and Peyton would have been endgame? I do. Do you? I do.

Yeah, I do. Because the chemistry was so strong. I mean, I don't. I don't know. You think they were so committed to the Peyton and Lucas? I think, yeah, I just don't know. There's so much about Peyton that made sense to me as a kid that was like, no, she wants to be with Luke. That's who, you know, was the first person that, like, called her bluff, you know?

Because before then, she was just a cheerleader, dating the basketball player, and everybody just went with it. And he was the first one that was like, you're miserable. Yeah. And so I understand that. And then I also understand like Peyton wanting to have a family with Jake because it's what she always wanted and she gets to kind of buy into this Insta thing. I don't know. There's a lone wolf quality to Peyton that I don't know will ever fully be endgame with anyone.

Is that awful to say? Wow. She's very Joe March. She's very Joe March. There's a spin-stere quality, man. That's what I mean. There's a thing about, you know, with Joe from little women.

Like if you, when you read little women and you, you get to know Joe and you want her so badly to be with Lori because of the young romance and it's so exciting. But there is something that does make sense about her in the end, ending up with this professor who's older and she's known for a long time. And there's a piece there where he gives her the space to just completely be herself in her own world. they have a partnership. It's not a wild, passionate romp all the time, but there is a maturity and a camaraderie and companionship there

that that's something I could see for Peyton down the line that wasn't something where she gets to be fully herself, fully independent, fully that lone wolf, but also having a partner who appreciates that about her. That mirrors her dad relationship where she's got this person who loves her so much and is totally hands off. you know, there's so much

co-dependence on our show that I sometimes worry about romanticizing that. Yeah, me too. You know what, though? I guess perhaps as our characters got older and we did the time jump, that was the thing I leaned into as a viewer, like a reader, an observer, whatever,

because we obviously didn't see all the episodes, but we read them. I think the thing that I really connected with Peyton and Lucas was that kind of energy, writers are often solitary people. They have to go away. They have to write. They have to be isolated.

And Lucas was a quieter character. And so I think just emotionally, as we got older, yeah, so many of our scenes did get very codependent. Everything was about the romance and the feelings for all of us, by the way, and not just you guys. But I think, like, in my imagination of the ways our. characters lived their lives. Like, Brooke Davis did work in groups very often. She might sketch up late at night alone, but, like, she worked with teams and did things.

And I always envisioned, like, Peyton working in the studio and Lucas working in his little office or in the window with the computer. Like, I saw these two solitary creatives coexisting. And maybe that's why, for honest to me. Just give each other like a high five in the kitchen, man. Yeah. Yeah. Are we spinning a wheel?

Yeah, let's spin a wheel. Guys, I get nervous. Don't be nervous. Sometimes when we start telling stories, and then I start to be like, I can't really just openly talk. I have to couch this in some mystery. And then I'm like, oh, man, what am I even saying? I should just stop talking. You know what, life is short.

And also, there's a part of me that really believes that quote that's like, I have to find but it's basically like if people didn't want you you own your own shit you own your shit if somebody did something horrible to you it's that's an experience that you had and you wanted you to speak well of them they should have treated you better they should have treated you better that's a much better yeah that's what I meant to say that's the one I like that guys we have we have a we have a winner of the wheel and this week's oh my god this is actually insane this week's wheel says who's most likely to be a drama queen oh oh I mean us you got them

okay on the show most likely I mean mouth is probably being a very big drama queen I think the biggest drama queen of all though is Dan Scott I mean I just cannot even with the Addicted to drama It is he can't walk into a room Without saying something absurd It's yeah yeah

He should be on real housewives of who cares? Like Real Housewives or whatever. But he's got... Tree Hill? Yeah, he's got strong Real Housewife energy. The new iteration of Tree Hill, there's got to be like, it's all Housewives. And like Dan Scott. Love that. If he hadn't died. In real life? I'm here for it. If we had to pick an actress from any other teen drama that we would want to be like an honorary drama queen in real life.

Carrie Russell. You love Carrie Russell. I do. I'm in. I'm such a girl crush on her. Yeah. Yeah. Love her.

I'm going Kelly Kapowski, Tiffany and Bertheson. She is my forever drama queen. She's so wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. She was a good one. I mean, yeah. Both of them need to come on the show.

I'd also, man, I'd love for Michelle Williams to catch. Oh my God. She's so good. I just love her. I love her in her little pixie cut. And I want to talk to her about making movies. and also about Wilmington. But the be-all-end-all,

queen drama queen, Sally Field. Oh my God. Oh, wow. The best cryer on television? 100%. The OG. An icon.

Sally Field, the original teen queen. She was Gidgett. That's right. Guys. She's had the longest career with like anybody on the planet, I think. Let's get Sally Field on the podcast. Oh, my God.

I would, guys, I would die. I would die. are we ready for that okay we love you guys thank you come back next week the next episode is season 3 episode for an attempt to tip the scales oh can't wait to see you soon bye see you next week hey thanks for listening don't forget to leave us a review you can also follow us on instagram at drama queens o t h or email us at drama queens at iHeartradio.com See you next time We're all about that high school

Drama Girl, Drama Girl All about them high school Queens We'll take you for a ride And our comic girl Cheering for the right team Drama Queen's smart girl rough girl Fashion but you're tough girl You could sit with us girl

Drama Queen Drama Queen's Drama Queen's Drama Queen's Drama Queen's Drama Queen's Drama Queens It may look different But Native Culture is alive My name is Nicole Garcia and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop.

That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.