Drama Queens - Heartstrings • EP419

Episode Date: April 3, 2023

It’s a late night recording of the pod and the wine is flowing. While Sophia, Hilarie and Joy struggle with the drama between Dan and Lucas in this episode, they find comfort (and more!) in Nathan.��   Plus, find out what happened in this episode that Sophia deems so valuable that she’s singing its praises 16 years later. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama, girl, cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Okay, season four, episode 19, Ashes of Dreams, You Let Die.

We're back to the depressing title. Jesus. Air dates May 30th, 2007. Nathan and Haley grow closer in spite of the recent scandal due to Haley's totally unreasonable, reasonableness. And Brooke wonders of a spark might be rekindled with Chase. Peyton receives a tempting offer that would ultimately take her away from Tree Hill. Mouth reconnects with Gigi, while Lucas and. makes a great stride toward something emotional for him at school regarding Jimmy.

And while Lucas tells Karen that Dan is a murderer, it sets off an explosive series of events, director David Jackson. Wow. Explosive is right. Where do we even start? The Dan and Karen kissing at the beginning. No. Just. It was like the episode came on, like we fade out of black and they're making out, and I felt like I got punched in the teeth. But also, they're making out in Lucas's room. Like, I am in a healthy marriage. I'm not hooking up with my husband in my child's room, because that's a weird thing to do.

It's weird. Yeah. Especially if you've had this history that is so sorted, and all of a sudden it's like, well, Keith's gone. So, and not even gone for a major amount of time. All of it. All of it's off. That was rough. I mean, Moira always shows up to work, man. Like, she is so good. She's so convincing. I feel for Karen in this scenario.

I hate Dan Scott right now. I mean, remember your reaction when he hit Lucas? Oh, yes. You guys were like, ugh. It was so shocking. And I guess it shouldn't be given what we know about Dan and how violent he can be and how violent we've seen him be with Deb. But the fact that he's trying to pull one over on Karen, and then Lucas hits him and he elbows him in the face, it was so brutal. Pure reflex, too.

Like, my son hits me, I'll hit him back. Ugh. But how much more effective would it have been in the scene if he hadn't hit Lucas? And Karen watched him restrain himself. Like in my mind, I don't care if my son hit you with a fucking baseball bat. You lay a finger on that boy. You are dead to me.

And so, like, the idea that Karen watched that and was like, boys, stop it. You guys are being unruly. She didn't say, don't touch my son. I was taken aback by her reaction. And I think what I liked about it as a viewer is that I didn't expect any of what happened. in that scene. Yes. And it's nice to have no idea what's going on or what's going to happen. But man, again, just knowing everything we know about Dan, it makes me feel so... Well, we got the good old-fashioned dance got double down, you know, when shit hits the fan

and he has a choice to make, to be a better human, he always chooses to go further in the other direction. Deny, deny, deny. Yes, and how uncomfortable did it make you? Because the three us have talked so much about this roller coaster of narcissism and abuse that he drags people on and he's been doing all this work to be like the best version of himself or so he wants to tell everyone and then when he knows that his son knows what he did he waltzes into that police officer's office with that swagger oh you know you can't blame the boy i'm dating his mom Oh, it made me want to vomit everywhere. Paul is such a good actor.

It puts the viewer in Lucas's shoes, because to your point, we didn't know anything. We could not have predicted anything that happened in that scene. Because if you had asked me to put money on it, I would have been like, no, Karen's going to totally go bad shit. If he hits him, you know, like when Lucas comes to her with this stuff, obviously she's going to side with him. Yeah. And the betrayal that we see on Chad's face in those. performances is exactly how I felt. I was just like, what? Like, I'm mad. I'm mad about it. It's a great point. He's such a good crier, Chad. He did such a good job in that. And you said

it too. He looks like a five-year-old right now. Just devastated that his mom didn't take his side. That finally he told the truth. Like he got to the bottom of it. He found out. And he was willing to say the hard impossible thing and then got shut down you know what i liked that they did for him and we've you know we've talked a bunch the folks at home i feel like now have drinking games for our buzzwords i know the misdirect is a buzzword right oh do we why we have those i think what are the rest i think we've got i think we do i mean we're doing it tonight but the the this is a really well done misdirect on the part of the writers and on the part of david jackson who directed this Because when you watch Chad in that scene, Lucas and Karen are sitting there and he's, to your point, Joy, he's confessing it, right? He's finally saying the hard thing. But they gave him this dialogue that was really like out of focus. And he starts talking about a dream he had and then the girl from the dream is real and he finally found her. But now she's gone. He does sound like he's losing his mind. Yeah, yeah.

And you get how his mother could think, oh my God. My son is exhibiting signs of PTSD. He needs to go to therapy. And you see these two people miss each other in this moment. And it's heartbreaking. And Chad did such a good job of leaning into that, trying to find the words, and it looking like confusion. And I loved the way they both sold it because I believed them both. Yeah, 100%.

And he feels like he has nowhere else to go. where's he going to go I mean Whitey Whitey's the guy to go to If I were like Dan Scott pulled some shit Whitey's my guy

Yeah For sure Yeah I would go to Whitey before I go to the police Yeah Okay Can I just say I do a whole TV show

About that very thing About how people in positions of power in small towns Can manipulate The judicial system And so Watching this play out On an episode

That aired in what year? 2007? Yeah Yeah Yeah. It happens all the time. And it's usually people who have their economics or their race or their sexuality that are being judged by the community at large. And so to see Lucas Scott, all American basketball player, put in that position is hopefully more people can see themselves in that and be like, oh my God, how terrifying to go to the people that you think are going to help you. and instead they align themselves with power. Yeah. Gross.

Yeah, you just get gaslit. Oh, yeah. Dismissed. Just dismissed. They already had their answers. They don't need to reopen that can of worms. Mm-hmm. Gross.

So interesting. Dan walking into that office is such an affront to what Lucas is trying to do. And then when the cop says, I was with your father outside the school, I had to tell him his brother was dead. and Dan has his whole sob story moment. You're just like, this is such a pinnacle of evil. But it's so human. Like we're looking at this on a level of murder. But we do it on a day-to-day basis.

We have these choices all the time when it's not. The stakes aren't that high. You know, it's just so interesting to watch the different levels of human, like a human nature instinct that, start small. It doesn't start at murder. Dan Scott didn't start his life acting that way with horrible things. He started with the small, everyday little decisions where it was like, do I save my ass? Or do I be honest and like do the uncomfortable thing that's going to make me look bad and people will think badly of me? And I just can't risk it. There's too much at stake. I'm just going to do the one thing, this one time that'll save my ass.

And then you do it again and again and again and eventually you're there. And by the way, before you even get to the point where am I going to do the thing It makes people look at me like I'm bad. Am I going to admit where I'm bad? Am I going to admit where I'm flawed? Am I going to consistently align myself to power? It's like our whole country is having a conversation about white supremacy and how it makes everybody sick, including the people it supposedly benefits. And it's the same shit.

Oh, I'm just going to turn my eyes. Oh, I'm just going to drive away. Well, it doesn't really affect my family. But the truth is it affects everybody. And it's really interesting, while that's, not the specific conversation we're having. We are talking, to your point, Hillary, about what you do on your show. Small town, super rich white guy comes from the sports world.

Big daddy. Nobody's ever going to blame this guy. And it's really interesting. And he says, this pains me. This pains me. I'm struggling here. How could you do this to me? Yeah.

And so regardless of what dynamic we're analyzing it in, the choice to always lean to aligning yourself with power, to aligning yourself to the person who you think can keep you safe, I think that's such a just a universal truism of the human experience. You said it, Joy, he's human. We're all human. Yeah. And to learn to undo that is, you know, to swim upstream.

And, oof, it's weird from this vantage point in all of our lives when we're advocating in the world and doing all the things the three of us were doing. to watch it, I wonder if that's part of the reason it makes our skin crawl so much. Maybe. It's too close to home. It's too gross. Yeah. I don't like it.

I love a cautionary tale because we're all just a step away, you know, or two or three steps away. We're all vulnerable to it at any given moment. That's why you have to be vigilant with yourself. But so I, yeah, as much as I hate Dan Scott, I'm also like, this is so fascinating to watch this kind of, I've said it before. It's fascinating to watch this character unfold. But now we've got Lucas in this.

boat where he's got to make a decision about what to do. Wait, I have a question. Is this the same police officer that just, like, congratulated Lucas for solving, like, the stalker Derek shit? Like, remember there was a cop? Remember there was a cop that was like, way to go, kid. You were right. That guy is a creeper from the internet.

I wonder, I didn't have a moment of familiarity watching him, but it's also been, what, three or four weeks since we've done an episode because people have been shooting movies. Guys, we got tired of the hospitals and we're like, we're going to hang out at the precinct. This season. God, I'm money. We have more hospitals coming up, so I'm pretty sure, yeah, you're right. They were like, get us out of there for a little while. Okay, we're really in the darkness.

Let's pull up a couple things that are beautiful. We can hot seat them. I loved everything about mouth. I loved what he did with Jimmy. I loved everything joy about your storyline as Haley. Yes. And trying to sort of mitigate your marriage and also your individual identity and the valedictorian speech. I love James' performance.

I loved Barry coming in to yell at him and rattle him and tell him to do the work. Where do we want to go? Happy stuff. Oh, my gosh. Let's live in Nathan Haleyland because it's the nicest. Okay. It's the happiest. Happiest place.

Jinks. From zero to 60. I loved it. I loved Nathan's hair. I loved. Oh, girl. Yeah. Pause.

Pause. for applause This is like I mean I think I've said it before How much I love the little Elvis movie That Austin Butler movie My kid watched it 27 times James is giving very strong

Like Elvis energy here Very old movie star with bad hair Oh yeah So wild to have had him on the show And to have him say Oh yeah I started growing my hair out For the season 5 storyline I was like what

We all just thought you were like Growing up and getting handsome. Being hot. What are you talking about? Whatever. He planned that out. It was great. It's interesting.

It's definitely a very real thing to think about the person that you, whether it's your child or your parent or your spouse or your sibling, how their actions affect the people closest to them. Yeah. I mean, that's a really, that's tough. And I kind of could see it from both perspectives. I mean, really, I think Haley still should have been allowed to give her speech, of course. Of course. But I could see why as an institution you have all these other people to pander to

and the people who are donating money. And it's just, that's like a tough situation for the principal to be in. But I'm glad that Nathan did what he did. And that it was a good chat with Principal Turner. I thought he was very convincing. He got a lot of play this episode. You know? Like, we've had Principal Turner for years, but he really had a lot of work this episode to play the back and forth.

And the look on his face when Nathan was like, do you have a wife? And would you want her punished for something that you did? And that's what it boils down to. It's like, God, actually, that is the last person I would want punished. Literally punish anybody else but her. She's gold. yeah what a heavy thing for a teenage girl to have to deal with but I think it's her I love that she's dealing with it so nicely while she's pregnant

I was like this she's being so reasonable this is so bizarre but actually I guess when you're you've got so many other crazy things happening in your life at some point you just kind of throw your hands up and you're like you know whatever I'm just going to take everything as it comes well and Haley's on the precipice of this enormous life shift and you have that bit of dialogue about it saying it's just a it's just a moment high school's about to be over yeah i'm paraphrasing a little but you know and i think what's interesting about it and what i like and in the ways that we talk about look if we talk as we all have about sexism in the workplace harassment the things women face it can't just be us who talk about it we need men to talk to men

about it yes and i really was impressed that in an episode of television that aired in two 2007, we were modeling the thing that happens all the time where women are blamed for the bad behavior of their spouse. This doesn't happen to men. If a woman goes off and does something, people are like, well, that guy's wife. But if a guy does something, they're like, what was his wife doing? You know, we've seen this play out over and over again on large and small national global scales that our little teen TV show in 2007 had a man.

Haley didn't have to go do it. The man went in and said, you don't punish my wife for what I did. She has nothing to do with this. What a thing to model. By the way, not just for teenage boys, but for grown-ass men. I love that.

I like that he did the cleanup, but I didn't love that Haley was like, it's okay. Like, I didn't feel like it was okay for Haley. I wanted her to be allowed to model being upset. Yeah. And be like, God damn it, I worked, you know, 12 years for this, my whole life I've worked for this. And I'm still

that Victorian having gone on tour and being pregnant. I'm doing it with like crazy obstacles. Yeah. There just wasn't room for it in the, I think realistically, there wasn't room for it in the episode. There were just too many other ups and downs. And we've already seen Haley be, you know, with the porn tape and all, or the, the sex tape or whatever that, you know, she was like reasonable about, I mean, you're not allowed to be emotional. Right. So at this point, it's like, okay, I guess I just had to lean into, I'm about to have a baby. I can't let this kind of stuff freak me out. I'm just going to have to go with it.

Right. But I agree. It would have been nice to see that. Like a moment with your girlfriends. Yeah. This motherfucker. Yeah, not just in the hall with Turner saying, I've worked really hard for this. Like, come on.

But with us, but I think you're right, Joy, we're getting into those end of the season episodes where they're cramming so much in. Yeah. Like, you said it, Hill, if you had a. an issue, you'd go to Whitey. But Lucas can't go to Whitey because Nathan and Whitey have a whole storyline. And Haley and Whitey had a great, great scene. Yes.

But like, that's the Naley and Whitey, and then you and I are having the boy drama with Lucas and Chase, so the writers didn't give room for Haley to come to Peyton and Brooke with valedictorian stuff. It's like, they were trying to just cover all the bases.

Yeah. And I'm sure there were scenes that got cut, because there always were. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first.

first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, it was a big yearbook episode. It was big for Brooke and Chase.

My God. Yearbooks. That was the most high school thing that happened in this episode for sure. Yeah. I loved the yearbook. Do you guys still have your yearbooks? I do, actually.

I still have my yearbooks. I was the editor of my yearbook. Oh, of course you were. Of course. This sensitive Sally's nostalgia in the year 2000, graduating high school, ran so deep, you guys. I cried in the yearbook office multiple times because I was just so overwhelmed with what it meant for our lives. Yeah. Guys, my student government sponsor came and spent the weekend with me.

Mrs. Johnson was here. And when I tell you that she and I polished off a bottle of bourbon going through the yearbooks and her telling me all the shit I didn't know. I was like, who is kissing who and what? We never think about that. Like, teachers that might be making out with each other. Teacher drama. I love, love, love. The fact that like our teachers aren't that much older than us.

Like, we're the age that she was when she was teaching me, which blows my mind. And hearing all that stuff from her perspective, she's like, oh yeah, we definitely knew whenever you were making out with your boyfriend in the hallway. And we knew exactly what you were doing at any given time. It's so fun to look at in hindsight. And a yearbook is something that really gets a bad rap as being kind of cheeseball. And it's like, oh, you're such a nerd for caring about school. I love those things.

I've lost so many classmates. And it's so nice, like, in this episode to go back. And, like, they're captured forever. You know, they'll live forever in this, like, little dumb bubble we have of memory. So I'm pro yearbook. I love the yearbook. Me too. I think there's something so special.

That was the stuff that got me in this episode. You know, when we were watching it, the three of us were like, what does this episode want to be? With the mouth, standing up for Jimmy and being sweet to Gigi and, like, them connecting over how as kids they could memorialize someone and process and you know him getting on the table and giving that speech because he wanted to give it to his mom like oh that got me so emotional yeah they're important moments what a gift you know what i was thinking about when i was watching that was you know from an outside perspective today and maybe even then i mean i think it would be considered deeply offensive to any victims of jimmies that went through the trauma of that

experience like for anyone to speak of him with kindness that's that's where we're living right now um and i just think like is it is it fair and clearly i don't think it is because and i think this episode showcases it beautifully to just wipe somebody out because of one terrible choice. I mean, there was a book written about the Columbine boys that talked about they were two very different kids and one of them was more troubled than the other

and led the other down a really dark path and their mothers have been very communicative with people because I think they feel beholden to the community to explain why things happen the way they happened. And maybe because it was the first, like, really big one, really bad one that we all talked about it and could explore the humanity of those kids in a way that now it's

just a flood. It's like a flood now. Like, how do you wrap your head around any of that? And the domestic violence portion is a huge point. Go ahead. But I also think that. something that's really important to remember. Like when you talk about how essentially we the audience are Lucas's ally in this, we've been Jimmy's ally in this whole story. Right. We as an audience

know who Jimmy is. We know that he got in a really bad way, that in this storyline he fell into a depression. You know, when we've talked about, you know, just to be clear in case you know, and miss the episode, we've talked about the fact that that's not what mass shootings are. They're different. They're cultivated anger, violence, supremacy, domestic violence, all of that.

That happens to boys. They're being groomed online for this. Well, that was the thing we complained about in the school shooting episode. Yes. So I feel like it's important just to repeat again in case anybody missed that recap. But I think that's the difference to your point, Joy, is like, I

would imagine for a parent, of a kid who commits an atrocity like that today, they think about their 8-year-old and their 10-year-old, and they don't understand how that kid became the 16-year-old who's a mass murderer. I think there's also for us as an audience here because we knew Jimmy, and we've known the whole time that Jimmy didn't do it.

He didn't kill anybody. He did a terrible thing, and he made a terrible mistake. But Jimmy's not a kid who decided he was an in-cell and he was being wronged by society. who walked into a school with a weapon of war and murdered 22 people. Like, the chasm is so different. And that's why I wonder, because I was wondering the same thing, like, watching it. I wonder if because we have the answers as the viewers of this show,

where we can say, it's so meaningful that we see Mouth fight for the best memories of his best friend, instead of letting him, to your point, be sort of wiped out in the worst thing he ever did. Yeah. But I wonder how much grace were willing to feel for that, because we know that he didn't do Columbine or Parkland or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, I really question that. Right. But where's the line?

And I don't know the answer to this, but that begs the question, where's the line? Peyton got shot. If she had died, would then it be okay? We would feel differently? Would we? Or would we still know Jimmy and know that he, you know, went through this bullying experience and felt devastated and got mentally ill and troubled? And, you know, like, where is the line for that? And again, I'm not trying to ask for an answer. If you have one, great, I don't have one. I just think it's interesting to think about those things and to be intentional about the thought process of those things. Well, and it's a good question for us to be asking, like, to interrogate ourselves. Yeah. And it's something our show does really well, is empathy and forgiveness. Like, that to me is a really radical form of forgiveness, the What Mouth did.

It's outrageous. And when you put it in a context, I read this article. It was a father who did this big interview about how his son moved back in with him and his wife, and his son got sucked into that QAnon world. Yeah. And he was like, my kid, I don't know who he is anymore. He's violent and he's angry and he's scary and he's combative. But I know my kid is in there.

I know my kid is in this person. And he can tell you, because it happened to his son in his early 20s, he can see where his son changed. And so to your point, I wonder how we can figure out, like, is it possible to put a line in the timeline of a human and mourn who they were before they were indoctrinated or radicalized or whatever? And I imagine how could there not be for the people in their lives? And to your point again, Peyton was shot. Jimmy isn't faultless, but he didn't murder Keith. And I think when you're the viewer and you know people, you're willing to breathe.

some room into their life in a way that is harder now when everything's like 200 characters on the internet and you see a headline and you know or when you don't know someone you didn't grow up with them you don't have memories with them i also think that redemption healing healing from trauma that's a community project i think so many people struggle and fall apart when they're isolated when they're alone. We evolved in groups. We evolved in villages. Yeah, that's smart. Yeah. We need each other. And the isolation, part of how people become radicalized, part of how these school shooters become who they are, is they're isolated and they're vulnerable. Yeah, that's any cult anywhere. Exactly. And while I don't have, I don't know anyone who has been in my life

and then been the cause of someone's death, some of the most powerful and profound experiences I have had in my life are sitting in maximum security prisons with the anti-recidivism coalition and having some of the most empathetic, emotionally intelligent, vulnerable and like charged exchanges and experiences with men who have killed people and who in prison have had finally access to trauma therapy, to group therapy, to group insurance. projects and who have understanding of what they went through as kids and how they became the people that they were and how they were in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong information and who have such immense passion for healing work for other people because they

know what it's meant for them and they have friends who have not had access to it and it's about the access and the privilege to the access. And I, the first time I was in one of those environments was when I was deeply in process of my own post-traumatic stress. I really struggled to be in rooms filled with men like that. And I was like, oh, I've just had one of the most profoundly healing experiences for myself as a woman in this group. And this man James, who I will never forget,

who was, you know, six, five, and probably, weighed 350 maybe 400 pounds when I thanked him in this group conversation for offering that to me started to weep and said my whole life I've only been told that because of my size and because of the way I look I was a weapon and that I could make this tiny little woman who I didn't know an hour ago feel safe changes my life and like we just sat and cried together and held each other And I was like, I wouldn't have known this about any of you had I not been here to witness you. But I don't think anybody can heal or anybody can be redeemed if they don't have access to a community that gives you another option. And that's where I think we struggle as a society.

How do we create new systems? How do we show up for people better? It's part of, you know, to take it all the way back, it's part of what you're doing with your show hill. It's like if you create another doorway and imagine what happens. When there's a door number four to walk through and all you've ever had your whole life for the first three. I mean, what you're describing is exactly what this episode does. Everybody else is healing and community and is teaming up in different ways. You finally see Brooke and Peyton together again.

You see Nathan and Haley together again. You see Mouth and Gigi together again. And Lucas is on his own. He's alone. And he is the one who ends the episode with a fucking gun. Like, that's insane. You're so smart, Hillary. Way to bring it back around.

That's right. That's exactly right. Our executive producer gal. He's all by himself, and that makes you act irrational. Don't do that. Yeah. If he had talked to the girls, any of the girls, Haley, Brooke, Peyton, his brother, if he'd talk to anybody, he would not have ended up with that gun in his hand.

Yes. And you know what? You're reminding me of something. Joy, when you guys did that scene together, when nobody knows where Lucas is, and then suddenly he's at school with you in the hall and you give him the yearbook, and he's acting like everything's okay, it made me so uncomfortable. I felt the same way. I was like, why is he being so normal?

It's abnormal. Yeah, he's acting like there's nothing wrong. Everything's totally fine. It was creepy. Yeah. But that's why, because that's what happens when you isolate. You mask and you pretend Like everything's normal

Everything's fine Hmm Broke my heart Well this is dredging up Some major things for us Yeah guys It was dark Darkness

You know it's not dark Pemuda shorts Dumb little Bermuda shorts I'm the only person Not Bermuda shorts Wait no you were wearing jeans too We escaped the curse of the Bermuda short It was Brooke and Gigi

and the Bermuda shorts. And by the way, you guys, I talked about this with the girls when we were watching the episode. Not only am I wearing tight little black Bermuda shorts with heels, but that blouse that they gave me was obviously too small for me. Like, it barely covered my chest, and they couldn't get the buttons closed on the sleeves on my arms, so they just cut them off. So the little arm sleeves are just flapping around. It was a cute little Victorian top. The important part was the part we were all. looking at the bosom was on point oh my god it was out of control and you talked about this recently

like we got into this place where they were giving everyone a color like couples had a color so for whatever reason i had to wear like plum you and chase were burgundy oh they were like we know you don't we don't have we don't have the shirt in your size but you're going to wear it and we'll just cut the sleeves open to make space for your arms and we're going to give you pants that's so badly want to be cigarette pants but they just can't make it they just don't go all the way down. It's like they're almost Audrey Hepburn, but they're the Bahamas in the 80s. Oh my God. Where did we even find those things back then? Was that at the mall? Wasn't everything? Banana Republic? It was trendy. That's why it was very trendy. It was the limited

two, which if you're reading the cut is back. Is it really? Oh, the journalists that are our age are like, please no, don't bring the bedazzled like Rhinestone Limited 2T's back don't do it and the kids are doing it they're doing it are you kidding me I am not I'll send you an article it may look different but native culture is very alive my name is Nicole Garcia and on burn sage burn bridges we aim to explore that culture it was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly like very traditional it feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence.

That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive, while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I will say, my outfit aside, I had such a, you know, sometimes we'll talk about how you have a visceral sense memory. You watch a scene, and you go, oh my God, I remember this.

they I remember feeling so just like about the way they put Brooke through the ringer in the Brooke Nathan Haley storyline with Peyton and the tape and the thing and I just didn't like it it made me feel uncomfortable I like that she won't even she calls it and the thing

she won't even say sex tape she's just like and you know that little tiny thing that happened would sooner die don't want to talk about it you know like I don't know yes we do our jobs as actors and we play what's on the page, but that doesn't mean we're comfortable with

it. No, it was so cringy. It was so icky. And I don't know. There was just something watching these scenes talking about the yearbook and what was going to go in the yearbook and who has feelings for who and, you know, bringing you the two index cards with like my options for the yearbook inscriptions. It just made me feel this like sweet, like just warm chested feeling of nostalgia of like, oh, it's so sweet. It's sweet to just flirt and wonder and kind of go there and say, I really have feelings for you, but then sort of pull back and see if they respond. I just loved it.

Oh, my gosh. And they're writing, like pouring your heart out in his yearbook and then having him only write you as that it's such a boy in high school thing to do. Oh, God. How many times did I have moments like that? Yeah. It kills me. Call me.

Please. Call me. Over the summer. Please, please. Call me. Here's my number. I just remember. those scenes and like they'd end and I could feel that like my face was flush and and I was just

like oh this is real like this is real girl giddiness and it felt really nice you know again going through the you know the teen drama ringer to like give Brooke just a little moment of like sweet giddy fun because the way that chase looks at Brooke is it's it's innocent he's not at all. He's like too big. He's got a baby phase, you know? Like, he is not trying to get in her pants. He is trying to make out.

He wants to connect. Yeah, he really wants to make sure he's not going to get hurt again. Do we have a drinking tally on like how many times Chase says, I got hurt really bad? That's the one. I loved your commentary when he, when he answered your, Brooke's question about why did you leave? Why did you join? What did it, was it leave or join clean teens? Why did you leave clean teens?

When Brooks all like, like, why chase leave clean teens? And he's like, I just, I didn't want girls to keep chasing me. They just, all these girls have to beat them off with a stick. And if I said it was a virgin, they'd just leave me alone. Maybe they'd think I wasn't cool and they wouldn't try to use me from my body. His excuse for joining clean teens was. that the girls wouldn't leave him alone. Yeah, he was just too hot.

I was too hot. I got to go join this weirdo club so that the chicks think there's a flaw. There's no flaw otherwise. Come on. But I love this. I do. This is the first time I have to say that I've actually noticed and liked Chase. For no other reason, like, not because I didn't, I think I just was focused on other

storylines. And I know Coletti was with us for a while. And I guess I just kind of brushed over it. But in this episode, I, I was like, oh, you know what, he is really sweet. He's not like a Felix or like any of these. Even Lucas, who is always so confused and conflicted. He's just so sweet and sincere.

And I love that for Brooke. Wait, wait, wait. Because when you were like, I've always not noticed him, I'm like, duh, because Haley has Nathan. Do you feel like, do we think, I've literally never thought this until this moment, forgive me, I'm trying to find the words. Are you responding? Are girls responding in this episode to Chase beginning to like give a little bit of the Nathan vibe?

Like just a good guy who wants to learn to be vulnerable for the right girl? Is that what that is? It's got to be because that's what every girl says. I mean, most girls in high school anyway, it's what they want. Right. If you're not looking for a guy with a motorcycle, well, cut me out of that. That's all I want. I'm in a garage right now

with like six motorcycles parked next to me what we did say while we were watching the episode is like the boys are working overtime in this episode. They are all as senior year is ending saying the right thing.

And so if that's just so kids at home learn how to articulate like yes I'm happy for you you deserve this nice thing. Yeah, the way Lucas does that for you I loved that. And you said it. He says every right thing.

That's it. It's not that hard. Don't be selfish. Don't freak out. Guys, as a viewer, like, not as Hillary Burton who participated in this show, but as a viewer who has not watched this since probably it originally aired, if I even watched it then, that was the most attractive Lucas has ever been to me. Because he sounded like my husband. And like, it was what he said was so like, you're going to go kick ass. And I'm not going anywhere. So go, like, make the world yours. It was so firm.

There was nothing, like, passive-aggressive about it. I loved, I loved Chad's delivery. I loved, it was just clean in a way that I think teenagers can be really confusing to one another. Like, you can say, like, yeah, you should go do that thing. And it's like, but that, but you didn't mean that, did you? Yeah. I absolutely believed Lucas. Yeah.

Yeah. And I loved that even though he was going through all of that, I guess maybe it was because he was dealing with something so huge. I'm glad he didn't compound the issue and suddenly make it more about him. He really was just solely focused on his mom and this catastrophic new information. So I liked that. I like that he just was able to put himself aside and give you what you needed. I mean, he was doing a different TV show this episode. You know, like, Peyton's all like, I'm going to L.A. with Brooke. We're going to party. Going to have the best summer ever. Getting tan, and he's like doing crazy shit. He's doing training day. I'm going to commit a murder.

Murder. Wait, I'm realizing, as you say that, as a viewer who has watched the Nathan and Haley dynamic and watched the Peyton and Lucas dynamic, it's almost like, and yes, Chris Keller was conflated in Haley's dream. But as viewers, we're getting to see Lucas say to Peyton, what we kind of wished Nathan had said to Haley, like, go, I'll be here. You know, he came, he drove to the show, and then you went on stage, and then he was gone. And we were all so like, don't do it.

Stay with her. She's your person. And so I wonder if there's also a little bit of this idea that these boys are learning lessons, because you said it, Joy, like this really is an episode about. these boys and what they're going through and their dad, you know, being the puppet master. Like, I wonder if part of the reason it feels so special, because yes, Peyton deserves it. And for us as viewers, we're like, finally one of the boys did it right, you know? Dude.

Yeah, he said all the right things. Yeah. That's gross. It is. It is. Because Lucas before would have been like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm going to need some time alone to think about it.

Are we going to feel about it? He's historically been kind of needy, so yeah. Yeah. It was nice. But again, you know, he was a little distracted with, you know, the whole murder of his uncle. I just, like, what he had to jump between in this episode was banana. I loved his last scene, though. Just, I mean, as an actor.

Wow. He did a good job. He did such a good job. I felt worried. I'm still worried for Dan because we don't know what happened. Yeah. You know, it's like kind of like, he didn't. well it's like you don't think Lucas has it in him

do you know what I mean it's like there's no way that little punk kid would shoot his dad you know we've seen Dan strangle him we've seen Dan assault multiple people we saw Dan hit him in the face at the beginning of the episode and so how far can you push this kid we oh yeah we've seen Dan kill his uncle how far do you push this kid um yeah God

I can't believe this was our like season finale. You know what I mean? It definitely feels like a season finale. It's weird that we're just like left in limbo. We'll get there next week. Yeah, but this season was bananas. Like really think about it. It became so violent this year in a way that I don't think it was in years past. What was happening in pop culture that was so violent that they were like, you know what we need? Guns. I think we were just, I think we were just constantly under the shadow of or the fear for i don't even know what the word is we were under the pressure to perform in the same way as like gossip girl and the OC and all these shows that

were in the vampire diaries and the stuff that was like really heightened i think that was it right that has to be it at least those guys had like supernatural elements to their show you know what i mean like ours is crazy violence in a small town with like bookies and city yeah our producer is texting us in our chat that the Virginia Tech shooting was in April 2007 I mean that was after we shot this though guys in season three I thought the school shooting episode was our one and done with like the crazy gun stuff and that just keeps going yeah we thought it was going to be like a commentary on something that happened we didn't know it was going to happen and ramp up in the way that it did.

But you're right, I almost feel like because some of the supernatural shows and then some of the more intensely pushing the line shows were going so crazy, the folks behind the scenes on our show felt like we had to keep up. That's what I was trying to say. Yes. Right? And like, we do what we do really well. And I think luckily, by, you know, four years into doing this, we're established enough that we know how to perform around these weird, you know, it's like they've taken the hula hoops we're jumping through and set them on fire.

Jesus. People are figuring it out, but it's like, it's on fire. It's really, it's so very intense. And I am curious. I mean, I will admit, and I don't know if you guys felt this way, but when we were watching, you know, it's so bizarre. bizarre that Lucas gets a gun from Deb and thank God for Barbara Allenwoods just committing to out of nowhere Deb's yeah deb's loopy and she's got a gun like nobody knows why that's happening in the tamale yeah yeah was it a jalapeno or a tamale i don't know what it was i just i

i i also like that they put two cookie jars on the counter yeah how did he know which one to go in why wasn't it the pumpkin but were they staggered between all the lamps probably but i think there was a lamp next to the pumpkin. But truly, it's like, it's so weird. Thank God, Barbara, committed. But yeah, it's just this wild thing that they make him do. But in that scene, I thought, well, here's this teenage boy, and he's having this really intense moment, and he knows what happened, and nobody's listening. The panic is ensuing fine. I did not remember that he pulled the trigger, you guys. I didn't even. Same. Yeah. Like. Like, I legitimately have no idea what we're going to see next time. No idea. I don't either.

Did he miss? Did he shoot the wall? Like, what happened? Like, guys, can people at home tell us if you, I mean, I guess if you've seen the show multiple times, you remember. But guys, I don't know what the show is right now. It's also like either way, it's going to be shitty because if he shoots Dan, then there's all kinds of repercussions. But if he misses at such close range, he's really terrible shot. Joy, that's so much up.

He's going to be embarrassed. Shame. Shame. Okay, so here's the thing, though. With all the crazy, crazy, crazy stuff in this episode, I think what our leadership was forgetting is that the best scenes were the quiet ones and the nice ones. And it was the scene where Mouth took the yearbook to Jimmy Edwards' mom. that is the where was her Emmy like that was so beautiful so nuanced and all of us started crying we should write her a note on drama queen stationary to tell her how much we appreciate that

performance yeah yeah but wait you guys yes we need to get her on the show and I'm having an oh my god moment because we're saying we have no idea what's coming next but I just looked at my notes. I was like, maybe there's a clue on these 18 post-its on my desk. Nathan's gone to bat for Haley and she's giving that valedictorian speech. Oh, yeah. I know what's coming.

I know for the fact that everyone is in that gym graduating. So what the hell happens to Lucas firing a gun at Dan while Karen has passed out pregnant that in the next episode, maybe it's the last one. I don't know.

But in the next two episodes, we're all just in our little blue cap and gowns, clapping for Haley, cute little speech like what is our show right now i feel relieved now i needed this relief because guys i'm serious like the acid in my throat i'm giving you heartburn i need to know it's gonna be okay what's gonna happen Hillary needs two tombs and a glass of water you know maybe it's the heightened stuff that they did that also made this smaller moments stand out more that's true they're diamonds yeah that's true

It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television. in history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation

basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, we do have a listener question from Sierra. Do you think it's the Sierra? Oh my God, did you imagine how cool it would be if it was? Yeah, she's a huge drama queen's fan.

I know it. She can come on our show anytime. Sierra, our idol, asks, you've talked many times on the show about how the parents aren't featured match and don't get any history. And the ones that are shown frequently are underutilized. if you could give one of the parents a backstory or a history, what would it be? Oh.

I would love to see a whole, like literally I would love to see a whole TV series on Dan's childhood. I love an anti-hero. It's like the penguin or Joker. Yeah, yeah, the Joker, I could watch that movie so many times. Yes, I'm so fascinated. It's like the kid that wanted to be a psychology major in me, I want to watch that. Yeah, because imagine. if you watched a show about two brothers and one grew up to be the riddler and one grew up to be

Batman, you'd be like, obviously. How fun. Yes. You should pitch that somewhere, Sophia. Okay. You heard it here first, kids. Tadda! We're going to the comic books.

They're related. As I'm watching Karen and I'm like seeing the Lucas Payton relationship, it's just now dawning on me after all of these years that Karen, who does not have a mother, and father and who has no siblings and is this like lone wolf girl is Peyton Sawyer like they're the same person and it's only now just making sense to me wow that's so interesting but we'd never ever find out why Karen doesn't have a family or any friends like never yeah never like who was Karen's Brooke Davis in high school. Yeah.

Yeah. That's crazy. Because I will tell you, single moms can't make it without friends. You can't. Exactly. And like, she was Homecoming Queen. She was on the cheerleading squad. Your friends don't ditch you.

Like, cheerleading runs deeper than Dan Scott. God damn it. But this is one of the things that's frustrating about television is, look, shows have, they got the budget they have and often writers aren't thinking well you know what we're going to do we're going to invest in one one of our two male leads we're going to invest in his mom's friends we're going to see these people and especially you know actors let's be honest like we're trying to find regular jobs it's hard to have a job where you get an episode here and an episode there if you're semi-retired and you happen to live in the filming town where it's happening cool but i think it

gets really tricky. We know how it is to lose characters to booking shows. You know, we did it on this show. And you can never ask someone to stymie their career to be able to show up only when you need them. I love that word. Man, it would be so cool. Stimmy is a nice word, isn't it? It would have been so cool to figure out because there's so much incredible, you know, theater and improv and local talent in Wilmington. I would have loved to see some time. with Karen's like cheer squad friends and the ones who turned their back on her and the ones who stayed

and how they heal as adults. Like, oh, that would be so cool. Oh, yeah. There's a whole show somewhere. Right? Like, what if Glenda's mother was actually one of Karen's friends in high school? Oh.

You know what I mean? Yeah, and that's why she's fixated on being popular and stuff, you know? Yeah. What's our honorable mention? I mean, Jimmy's mom, right? Oh. Misses. Give her the trophies, man. She was so wonderful. And just what she communicates. Her looks, her moments. It's really incredible when you watch somebody who doesn't say much but says everything with their face. Yeah. Renée Vincent. Remarkable.

Renee Vincent. That was such a remarkable performance. And we got so lucky with. our talent in North Carolina. The people that came to play with us made us better. And so I'm so happy that Lee got to have that moment. You know, he had to do a lot of really questionable stuff this season with the Rachel stuff and the Shelly stuff and even the Gigi stuff, you know. And for him to have this really sincere, genuine moment with a very talented actor. Awesome.

Extremely talented. Renee Vincent. Oh, it definitely gets the honorable mention. I liked everything Lee had to do in this episode. It was nice to your point. Like, really nice to just see him in his goodness. And then that ultimate moment with Jimmy's mom, with Renee, just go, oh, this is, this is it.

All right, so are we going to spin a wheel? Are we spinning a wheel? I don't know how we do something lighthearted for the wheel after this episode, but we're going to try, damn it. Oh, this is fitting. Most likely to become a teacher at their old high school. Inter-oh. Okay, so which, well, didn't Haley do exactly that?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's a no-duh. Did any of us in real life go back to our high school and teach? I feel like you would. Hill.

You do fundraisers at your high school. I go back to my high school when I can. Y'all, I love school. That little ecosystem Cool Yeah All day I gotta go in on Thursday

I'm mentoring Yeah you are The civics club And we're doing a We're doing a short film On the Fiddler's Bridge Murder And these kids are doing like

Local Folk Tales And I'm like Yeah that's that's an education Right Someone else can teach math I'm going to teach Like murder and ghost stuff That feels fun

Is that a real class? murder and ghost stuff I would sign up for that class yeah yeah no it's an AP course it sounds like a school a class in the school of communications at college where you're like yeah I want to learn full four I like going back to

to visit my high school I've done that a couple times and I went pre-pandemic and spoke at this event at USC that was so fun and I got to see all my favorite professors like yeah I just get so excited when I get to see my teachers and I think it's really special when you get to invest in the places

that you grew up in. You know who grew up and worked in a school is Colin Fickis who played Jimmy Edwards. There you go. He was working in a school and now he works for Stockade Works

which is a film non-profit up here which is pretty much a school where it teaches people who do like vocational jobs how to apply them to film. And so he's still in the process. of teaching. That's full circle. It really is. So it's Colin, Colin for the real life. Oh, sweet, Jimmy. Oh, it's so sweet. I feel like we got to go teach a class about podcasting or

something. We should be guest lecturers somewhere. Oh, well, I'm doing an artist in action day in like two weeks. They're like, they're like, Hillary, will you come give the keynote to a bunch of middle schoolers? And I'm terrified. They're so intimidating. I was like, I was a what does it entail? And they're like, I don't know, whatever you think middle schoolers need to hear. And I'm like, what? No.

Like, let me just light myself on fire real quick. My God. I'll literally talk to any other age group. Middle schoolers are so terrifying. Guys, I just walked up. My daughter was at a, we were all sort of like a house party, like an after basketball party,

and she'd gone upstairs with some of the, all the adults were hanging out downstairs. She'd gone upstairs with some of the girls. I walked up there to say, say goodbye to her because I was leaving and I look I walk in the room I'm you know knock knock who is it oh it's Miss Joy I'm coming to say goodbye Maria okay I open the door I walk in it's like it's a it's a room all the lights are out but the black lights are on and like the neon signs on the wall are on Maria's across the room so I have to walk through a gaggle of like 12 and 13 year

girls to get to her and I wasn't even thinking I just walk in I get halfway through the room and I'm like I'm in the wrong place And I just retreated. I just shouted at her from across the room. I was like, I love you. Goodbye. And just retreated out. Like, I'm so sorry.

I'm really sorry to interrupt. There is nothing cool you can do in middle school. High school's weird at that. All right. Well, guys, we get to graduate so soon. So soon. I'm sad. I think it's in the next episode.

Yeah. All right, we're going to see your big speech. What is it? Season 4, episode 20, the birth and death of the day. Oof. Jeez. Again.

Maybe the birth is happy. Maybe Jamie comes. Yeah, yeah. I got high hopes. I need to cling to some happiness here. Okay. Fingers crossed. We'll see you guys next week.

Thanks for hanging out. Chab. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's O-T-H. Or email us at Dramaquins at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens.

We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl, cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you're tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore. explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first native comic bookshop.

Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.