Drama Queens - Hindsight is 20-23 • EP414

Episode Date: February 13, 2023

Looking back at this episode, certain things from the past come into new light...which may explain some of the lingering feelings the girls share. Plus, find out what was wrong with Mouth and Shelly��s breakthrough scene and the girls break down the real life traits of Dan’s narcissism. Get your wine ready…we’re going in! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl. Drama queen cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Sophia, tell him what episode we just watched.

Friends, family, even foes at home. We've just watched. For all of you hate listening. For all of you who hate it, we've watched season four, episode 14, sad songs for dirty lovers. The irony that this episode aired on Frickin' Valentine's Day in 2007 is not lost on me. Oh shit, this was Valentine's Day? Yes, how f***ed that?

What is that? Doosy? All right. All right, Valentine's Day 2007. Haley confronts Brooke regarding the stolen calculus test. Lucas and Peyton consider taking their relationship to the next level. As Peyton and Brooke finally, finally grow closer, thank fucking God. And then in Deb's absence, Nathan throws a senior party at the Scott House.

We're a sex tape from Nathan's past surfaces. Our director was Janice Cook. She was being a director on the show that we were very fond of. She was good at parties. I feel like she really, like, handled this one. Yeah, she did. She did the great job. It felt like a real high school party, man.

It did. God, I don't even know where to start. I mean, I guess... Well, here's what I want to know. What'd you do to piss the writers off? Because between Brooke stealing the test and then, like, boldly. just lying about it to her best friend

and then Brooke with this doozy of a sex tape I mean look no spoilers here we all know what happened what'd you do they made you the bad guy this episode I don't know man you know it's interesting because the

the stealing of the test and you know having everything you want so close that you can almost touch it and then having something threaten it I like the dramatic foil and I like I like in a way that as Brooke is trying to be a better version of herself, Rachel kind of pushes her into, you know, three years ago, Brooke.

Like, I like the push and pull of it. I like that she feels stuck between a rock and a hard place. I've certainly been there when you're a part of something and you don't really know, I mean, this is granted her being fully, you know, 50% of the guilt here. Like, they stole that test together. But I've witnessed people that I love. do things that aren't great

and not known where it's my place to speak up or not. And so I guess in that way where you kind of go like, I don't know if I should say anything, maybe I should just stay on the periphery, which at this stage in my life, I don't think is the best course of action,

but in our early 20s, I mean, God, we got really trained to be such people pleasers to always be good on set, to never have a problem, to never, you know, never be the squeaky wheel. And so I think those were the ways I really related to Brooke in this position of I don't want to hurt Haley and I don't want to get Rachel in trouble and I don't want to lose my future and maybe if I can just white knuckle it

over the line it'll all be okay. Is it really a big deal anyway? You know all the lies you tell yourself. Oh yeah. And then so it's like that that I can kind of get. But man, when I read that tape scene, I was like, I'm not doing it. And they were like, you're doing it. And I was like, I'm not doing this. I will not do this. James had to talk me off a ledge. and like we've talked a lot y'all about how this was sort of the year that like our baby james grew up and he was like it's all going to be okay i'm gonna take care of you don't worry soph like he really came in like a boy scout and i was like i don't want to do this man i was so upset i thought it was so unforgivable and then no spoiler alert exactly but the f***ed up thing is that for

the fans at home who know what episodes coming next there's the flashback to the night that this happens between Brooke and Nathan. And the episode opens on, you know, sophomore year or whenever this was supposed to be, junior year, with Peyton being in such a mood. And I don't know if you remember, but you say two of the meanest things I've ever heard a human say, first to Nathan and then to Brooke. And basically they're like, fuck her. And they like drunkenly have sex as revenge, even though she's broken up with him. And when episode 415 is, they cut it all out so it just looks like what i don't remember this yes they cut the the awful things that peyton says to brook which i'll tell everyone about next week they cut them and it and i remember

watching the episode on tv and crying and i was like you've made her yeah i was like you've made her unforgivable it does be a little like character assassinationy it's death to brook in this episode man I don't know. Our boss was probably pissed because he tried to grab my ass again, and I told him to go fuck himself. So he made me pretend to have sex with Nathan instead. I mean, not a bad trade, my dude. Honestly, James Lafferty is a gentleman. So, you know, if you had to pick one, you'd always go to that side. If you're going to go down swinging, you know, cool.

This episode gave me tremors. I've got my kids, you know, like we're hiding out here in North Carolina. I'm at the scene of the crime. I'm back in North Carolina. And it's just changed. Chad and I rolling around the whole episode. And I keep waiting for my kid to walk in. And I'm like, mom's in her bra.

Be cool. Be cool. Calm down, babies. There was so much talk in this episode about sex. Like, let's do the damn thing between, you know, between Brooke and Not Chase and Brooke and Nathan and Peyton and Lucas and Mouth and Shelley. And who else is having sex? Not having, I mean, Dan's coming on to Karen. And everybody's like pushing that button and so much talk about love, all I could think was like when I was a senior in high school, I was like, I'm getting the fuck out of here. I don't love anybody. Like I'll make out with a different person every weekend. So this idea that like teenagers are so fixated on finding like the great big huge love of their life was like funny for me this episode. I enjoyed the novelty of I have to be with someone.

I think I get that and maybe it's because I went to an all-girls school so I didn't I didn't really have the luxury of like oh everybody's just kissing everybody it was like who's your person because we were just watching rom-coms and you know so I think that I think that we were much more in the world of TV fantasy and oh man senior prom was such a big deal and what was going to happen when we go off to college we're going to stay together right like everybody really was in this heightened sort of sense of reality that you see in our show which is probably because we had no reality we were just copying what we were watching on tv yeah i mean i feel like we talked a lot about our show created a new normal uh in certain respects for the generation of girls that were watching it when they were in high school um do you know anyone from your pack of friends that married or is still with the person that they were with when you were, you know, going to prom. I have three. Do you really? But not from my school. But, you know, I'm from the South, man. It's a different deal. Yeah, not from my school. My

girlfriend, Amanda, who lives in Chicago, is with her middle school sweetheart. One of my best friends, Alicia, who you've hung out within New York, is married to her, I mean, junior high, sweetheart you know at 13 he carved their initials in a tree at summer camp that's really cute and then yeah i've got one other girlfriend who was so in love with this boy she went to church with and they were together and then in college they weren't and then they wound up getting back together and getting married um and then my baby cousin my cousin shelby is married to her uh her high school sweetheart but they're all from like one pasadena one texas one chicago one new york like they're all over the place Yeah, they're all over the place.

I love when I go home that so many of my classmates are still with the person that they went to prom with or, you know, that they were dating during football season, you know? And their weddings were all super, super fun because it was a high school reunion. Yeah. I can't just, I don't know why I can accept in real life, but then when I see it on TV and I'm like, these fucking kids, don't know. It's like exhausting to me. Maybe it's because I'm in a parental situation now where I'm like, honey, don't lock yourself in, go, be free, explore. Yeah, you're like, it's all ridiculous. And the thing is, in most of the world, sort of statistically, it is.

But I do think you're in that really interesting moment, right, where you're desperate to leave the nest, but you've also known nothing else. You think you're an adult, but really you're a child. And, you know, you want to adultify yourself. And being in love, being independent when you're about to go to college, feels like a big way to, you know, mark the territory of your identity. I'm an adult. No one embodied that better than Lee Norris in this episode. Oh, my God.

He is so in love with Shelley after having dated Gigi for the last couple months and just starting to date, Shelly. And I appreciated that because it was real. That was real. Like, that boy wants to be in love. He wants to lose his love. V-card. He wants to go to college and be able to, you know, be a man. I'm a man for Tree Hill, not a boy. You know what I have to say, though, made me sad. Because to your point, Lee acted this

episode beautifully. He put real emotion into what he was given. The words on the page, he made them real. And something that I appreciated watching it now that I don't think I appreciated when the episode aired, was that this was really the first time you were seeing a boy say, I'm crazy about you and I don't know what to do about it. And I, I, I'm not pushing you away. You're pushing me away. And I don't understand. Yes, I want to be with you. Am I not supposed to? You know, but, but he's not saying in those sentences, you know, I want to be with you. So why do you care? He's not doing that gross trope. But, but I have this real letdown. And I can tell in the way that some of those scenes jump that they were edited down.

So I know there's dialogue missing, which I think does a real disservice to the conversation Malth and Shelley are having. And I think they really made Mouth and Shelley's story in this episode. They put it firmly in the B storyline space when it should have had an A storyline. Yeah, absolutely. Because it makes it, by shrinking the amount of time they're on screen together, they're have conflated uh desire and confusion they've conflated mouth believing he's being rejected because he's not enough which is his core wound with shelly not knowing how to communicate that she her core

wound is that she's afraid that if she has sex again everything will come crashing down so instead of having this really interesting experience where he could get vulnerable about feeling like he's never chosen and she could say all i want to do is choose you but i don't think i can choose you without choosing myself. And they could get somewhere really kind. They rushed it and they made his expressions of his own vulnerability read as being completely manipulative of her. And all too often we see boys pressure girls into sex. And I've seen that scene a million times. I don't feel like that's what was on the page here. But they kind of edited something that felt vulnerable into something that felt manipulative. And it kind of has a foot in each world. And I really don't like the

result. Well, I mean, that probably is reality. You know, like I appreciate that we saw a boy crying about sex. That's what I mean. Like his vulnerability is beautiful. American Pie came out when we were in high school, dude. And like, I remember being at parties where people wanted to watch. shit and just being so kind of creeped out because I was like, I'm still a virgin. Is this the way you boys talk behind our backs? Yes. Being really weirded out. Because all my guy friends were laughing at it. And they were like, yeah, but you know, whatever. Well, yeah, I had just, the summer before season four, I'd gone up to Canada to shoot John Tucker Must Die. And the scene where we watch all the boys in that movie talking about, you know, the lead girl, Kate, Britney Snow, they're like

chanting uncorker and porker like it's disgusting and that was to your point all of our representations of how boys wanted to lose their virginity yeah and and so I guess that's why I feel bummed because this was like this was a boy really saying like

I don't know if I'm attractive to you I don't know if you feel the way about me that I feel about you and I'm I have all these emotions and all these feelings and of course I want it to be you but they like they cut it off and i wanted more of that honesty for both of them and and what i what i feel like we wound up with was something where a lot of people watched this and went i feel like

he pressured her into sex and that that really felt like a letdown it felt guilty man yeah it felt guilty and that's not what lee was performing no like yeah is he the first male character on our show that we're seeing lose his virginity. Yeah. Like, I mean, I love that he played it as emotional as he did because had he been any other dude, he would have been like firm with her. Like, you've led me on and blah, blah, blah. And instead, Lee does it with tears in his eyes and it's like legitimately confused.

So kudos to him for nailing it. But it did feel like a guilt thing. Like, fine, I gave you the thing that you wanted. Can you leave me alone now? And by the way, I've done that in real life in my youth. Just like, fine, you've pressured me. I've given you the thing that you wanted. Can we stop?

Like, can you just stop calling me? And it's the, I threw up. You know, like, it's the grossest feeling as a woman to be pressured into that. And, oh, God, I just, like, thank God we got Liz to do it. I know. Because she's so good. And she just looks like a baby. and you want to protect her.

I think what made it hard is because they were both so good. They put so much into it that gave it nuance, but I think I just, I had the real feeling that some of that nuance wound up on the cutting room floor

because episodes have to be cut for time. And what was odd to me was that it wasn't a clear cut case of like, he guilt tripped her. She was like, I want it. I want it so bad. I want it so bad. I can't be a,

around you. And look, if I'm around you, I'm going to have sex with you. And then I have to run away from you because sex is shameful. You know, she says, I know you're a clean teen. And she says, I'm the clean teen. So what we're getting at is that Shelly has built an identity for herself that she's afraid to lose. And that's interesting. But we don't go past one quick reference to it. And it's like, it's like she's a secret. Basically, they made this whole thing. like he thinks she isn't attracted to him and she's in fact a secret nymphomaniac who has to run away because sex is bad and it's like what the what is this and i can't even look at you i can't even look at you i can't be next to you it just made me feel sad because they're both

such talented actors and i wanted more of the vulnerability i wanted more of him thinking he knew what she was saying and her not being able to say what she needed to say and then having a t-a-tete in that manner until they got to a point where they both got vulnerable and got to say, no, that's not it. It's that I am fill in the blank. Yeah. Like, I wanted that. Well, to your point, I loved the line at the beginning of the episode where Mouth literally says, it's about them, the clean teens. And then it cuts to a shot of all the kids in their t-shirts. But that, that's very real. Like, my identity was so wrapped up in my virginity in high school. And because I was like, I'm the good girl.

I'm the girl that like follows all the rules that when I went away to college and came home and was not a virgin anymore, I felt like everyone was going to judge me and I completely lost my sense of self. And so that feeling of trial by the jury of your peers when you're forming your identity is there's so much there. And we made a snack instead of a meal.

It could have been a delicious meal. Yeah, I just, I really wanted that storyline to be given its due rather than to be just in the slideshow of scenes at a party. Mm-hmm. You know? Well, speaking of other B storylines that should have been A storylines, we have to dissect Dan and Karen because why am I nostalgic for their high school years? I know.

I know. Also, I love, well, two things. As soon as you said nostalgic for their high school years, I'm like, God, yeah, that shot of them in the yearbook, Gorge, I want more of that. I wanted to actually see, like, a flashback to their prom. I wonder if we're going to get it. But why does Dan just walk into Karen's house?

I just pulled up my notes. And at the top of my notes, what is that? Why does he constantly just walk into her house? Tree Hill's weird, man. No, he's got locks. and like all these women have had terrible things happen to them and they're just like whatever doors we don't even have doors we just have like tent flaps at the front of our house yeah come all um he does just walk into her house and maybe that's

to illustrate his level of comfort with her at this point because since keith died he's really been playing that card of yeah doesn't he say it oh he says it later at dinner when they're on there not a date, date. Not date. She says, I'm pregnant with your brother's child, and he says, but you're also alone. I want to be the man you turn to. That's what my nose is saying. Ew.

Right after that. But also, here's what I was thinking about a little bit, though. They're only 36 years old. Yeah, 36 or 37. Wait, no. Are they even that old? Well, because they're 36 when the show starts. But every season of the show is, every two seasons of the show is one year.

But if they were 18 when they had Lucas, and Lucas is now 18, that's 36. Oh, yeah. So they must have been, God, so they were like 35 in season one. God bless him. So they're like 36 years old and that's still very young. And Karen hasn't, I mean, I guess what, she's dated Andy, she's dated Keith. I don't know. There's still, I can understand her level of optimism where this man has hurt her for 18 years.

Could it be that she, there's redemption there. It's like if he ends up being a good guy. Yeah. It absolves her of the poor decision making she made when she was a teenager. Yeah. And there's a little bit of like hero complex where it's like, I did. you're a good guy, you know, like, not anybody else. You know, nobody else in your life could make you a good guy, but I did. And we all have egos. If I, if I was dealing with like a huge

total and I got them to behave, I'd be really proud of myself. Yeah. So I can fully understand why Karen is like, okay, fine. It's also one of the number one ways that manipulators and narcissists do what they do, is they look at you and they say, yeah, I know I've, I know I've been a bad guy, but you make me want to be different. Yeah, listen, I'm a sucker for that. Sophia. I love it. I'm like, tell me more. I want to eat a spoon. The entire decade of my, I've had phases in all my decades of that. Let's just, let's leave it at that. But that's the thing is, is someone who says, I've behaved badly because I've never felt safe. I've behaved badly because no one's ever really loved me. I've behaved badly because I grew up in a terrible environment. You make me feel safe.

You make me want to change. You make me realize I can be the man I want to be. That is seductive as hell. Yeah, I get it. If I'm Karen and tall handsome Dan is buying my son tuxitos and like he is showing up with consistency. This isn't once in a while. It is this man walking into her house every other day and we've watched it over the course of the last what six episodes um he is consistently like you're great i'm here i'm saying the right words i totally understand but i'm frustrated with myself as a viewer that i'm falling for it i know but it's also really interesting because you realize how easy it is in a moment you you forget your memories you forget your memories you forget the past you know it's like what so many of my girlfriends you included have talked about

with having kids where you're like yeah childbirth is insane if you remembered it you'd never do it again you block that shit out you block it out like karen has all these terrible memories with dan but here he is day after day week after week showing up being the best version of himself but but hold on let's pause there for a second does she have terrible memories with dan because it seems like there was a vacuum. It seems like there was an absence, right? So rather than her interacting with him on a regular basis like Deb did over the course of the last 18 years, Deb's had an eyefall, right? Karen just had 16 years of nothing and had to hypothesize what he might be up to or what kind of parent he might be. And so maybe that absence is

actually working in his favor right now because she doesn't have all the experience the Deb has who is like clearly still struggling. Yep. That's a great point. That's a really great point because Karen's pain points with Dan are a long time ago. And yeah, there have been things, you know, him trying to get in the way when Lucas joined the team. I'm sure there were times when Lucas was a kid and Dan would refuse to pay for things, you know. There was that whole thing about how she never took any child support from him. But I would imagine that there was some sort of battle that got them there.

Maybe, but maybe not. Maybe she was one of those chicks that was like, you know what? You'll figure it out. Yeah, it might have been. Nature abhors a vacuum. It will fill it. Well, if there's a vacuum,

what an empathetic person does is say, oh, God, I made all these assumptions over 16 years. I didn't approach Dan. And look how wonderful he's being right now. Yeah. Did I rob my son of an opportunity? Did I rob my son of this relationship? And so, yeah, he's just working that.

He is. He's working. But by the way, has never been more charming. No. Has never been more charming, has never been more magnetic. Mm-hmm. And not only does she witness the way he's being with Lucas in front of her. She sees him giving Lucas advice and a person to confide in, I guess doesn't see him, rather, I should say, she hears it through the door.

She hears them forming their own relationship. Dan's saying, hey, I see you like no one else can see you. It'll be our secret. He's creating a sort of avenue where Lucas can confide in him. and where he can have a parental male figure in his life and Karen is listening to that and then in they come with the door and dad bought his kid a tucks

and it's all, it's very sweepingly romantic. Oh God, when he asks her to prom and she's like, are you asking me to prom? Flustered. She's pumped. Yeah. She's pumped. It feels good.

Yeah. We can feel Karen's, relief almost because if you fall for an asshole it makes you second guess every decision you make whether it's personal or professional oh yeah but if that asshole ends up coming around and you can write it off as like that was a bad chapter for him but what i saw was real what i saw was real i was right there's just a relief because it means you're not crazy it means you weren't duped that you saw something that actually existed yeah And, oh, I feel so bad for it.

It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories,

such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Deb. Deb. It is a wild thing. And, you know, I have to say, there are things that just don't age well.

The way that Nathan speaks to Deb about her alcohol. which again was written for the character to say is so upsetting to me yeah him calling it a weakness and saying it is not a disease when we literally know that addiction is a disease it's so dismissive and cruel and it's like why did he even bother to visit her that day well and by the way maybe it's all to set up that he says to haley i think i was too hard on my mom so haley so haley can say well why don't we move in with her let's be the martyrs let's be the heroes let's help you know maybe they thought well he's really got to be terrible to deb if he if he's going to vent about it to haley but man that that was hard yeah yeah that was really difficult to watch

because it's not like it's not like he showed up and he was dismissive of her excuses it's not like she was like I'm so sorry I'm so sorry and he was just like uh-huh uh-huh you know, which is probably more like what a teen boy would do. He showed up with like things he wanted to say and they cut to the quick. Like he said hurtful things. Peyton's mom had an illness. You're just weak. Yeah. You said it. You were like, that's Dan Scott's son. Yeah. That's some Dan Scott level manipulation. And it was very, I was very taken aback to see it from Nathan. And I think it was hard, you know, as we were talking about it when the episode was on, you also said, because I expressed my frustration, that he was demeaning the severity of what alcoholism is. And you said

he's also demeaning the abuse she has survived. Well, yeah, dude. It's like, she's an abuse survivor. It goes, it goes back and forth with Nathan a lot where like one minute he's team mommy, where he's like, Mommy, we've survived Dan and his wrath and the reign of terror and then the next minute he like completely forgets and it's like oh is your life

so hard living in that big expensive house with you know like whatever I don't believe that shit came out of that kid's mouth no it's wild and and the irony I mean I know there's a lot of time between 2007 and now but the irony of all the things we've learned

do you remember that study that came out that said yeah look money can buy you No, I'm going to tell you right now that I don't because you're the data nerd. Oh my God, okay. I'm sorry, but this is actually really interesting. There's a study that came out a couple years ago that talked about like, you know, everyone always says money can't buy happiness. And it's like, well, yeah, but money can buy you security. It can buy you experiences. It can buy you health care. And those things are all great. But they've actually proven that money makes an incremental difference in your year, in your life, up to the threshold

where you take home 70 grand a year. Like the difference, between taking home 40 grand a year and 70 grand a year is a big, big difference. Past 70 grand a year into multi-millions, they've, like, proven that money doesn't make you any happier, which I find really interesting. And there's a, you know, it's like cliches or cliches because they're true. That's why we say them all the fucking time. And so if money can't buy you happiness, how interesting to look at someone like Deb and even someone like Nathan who have every privilege human beings could possibly be afforded and they're both suffering and mother and son are both suicidal and you can have this conversation about abusive relationships and how

success is the illusion and what's really going on behind the scenes and here as a kid we've talked about this all season Nathan is on suicide watch he's been crying out for help and then his mother has a suicide attempt and he walks in and goes really mom suicide. Thanks for the note. It felt so out of character for Nathan's journey that I almost feel like in an early version of the script, it was a dance scene. And then

they decided because they wanted Haley and Nathan to move in with Deb that Nathan should go instead, and they just didn't really rewrite the scene. Well, whoever wrote Nathan this episode hasn't been watching all of season four because he also goes to Lucas when Lucas is at the hiding out in a bedroom looking at the picture of Keith and he's like you got to get over it man Keith is gone meanwhile he's the one that was haunted by Keith for infinity fucking episodes

yes it's so bizarre I again there's there's great stuff in this episode and I love the we're getting close to graduating and we just one stayed and there's a lot of nostalgia I love that they threw a party I love that they threw a party but but the actual scene between the characters, Mouth and Shelley, Nathan and Deb, Nathan and Lucas, they kind of feel like they don't make any sense. I'm like, who are these people? Has anybody been watching our show? The kids who are not economically well off are significantly happier than the kids who are. Because Rachel, as, you know, she's in a bad place. Torpedo to life. Brooke is dealing with a bunch of bad. Nathan, you've got Deb.

and then like the happy go lucky ones are skills you know Karen's having a great time living in a little house you know and Peyton is finally happy you know like the kids who um were part of the river court scene yeah are with the exception of mouth are seemingly doing much better it is just maybe because there's not as much pressure on them you know what I mean when you're from a wealthy family and it's like okay well what do I do once I'm kicked out of the nest? You know, that can be frightening. Yeah, I'm very curious with it in particular for Rachel because you see what she's doing. And I love the scene between me and Danielle. When Brooke chases her out of the party and asks what's been going on,

and Rachel explains. And there's nothing that Brooke can say, but thank you. And she means it. Oh, look at you just clutching your chest. you cutie. I know that really got you. It really, when Rachel said, you're my friend, Brooke, I felt that in my bones. I felt it. And it was like for Brooke who is in a battle with her best friend, Peyton, and who has just lied to her other best friend's face, right? And so that feels bad. That feels bad when you're fighting with your friends. You know, nobody likes

that. To have this girl say to her, I'm willing to second. sacrifice my future because yours is so bright. You're my friend, Brooke. I love that. That was probably my favorite moment of the episode. That was my favorite. Especially for Brooke, who doesn't feel like people bet on her. Yeah. Well, she also feels like it's really easy for people to remove Brooke, you know, and that can feel bad when it's like, oh, Peyton seems fine without me, and my parents are fine without me, and my ex-boyfriend is fine without me. And, I moved out of Haley's apartment, so Nathan could move back in. She's fine without me, you know, to have someone prioritize you the way Rachel is done,

I wish you two had ended up together. What a cute couple. Oh, my God. I know, it would not have been so fun. But it's, again, it reinforces the ways that especially I think those two girls are stuck. Brooke is stuck. She doesn't want to hurt Haley, but she doesn't want to hurt Rachel. Rachel knows she got Brooke in trouble

but realizes how much worse it's going to be if Brooke gets caught now wants to be Brooke's friend and has finally found a place where she fits in and you realize the magnitude of this expulsion when she's putting away her little box from Tree Hill High and you see it lined up against all the rest of the schools and you realize that nobody bets on Rachel either. It happens again in a

again and again, even if she is self-sabotaging, even if she's doing it so that it can't be done to her. It's, oh, it's just heartbreaking. She's always, like, with the exception I'm trying to hook up with Nathan, she's always on the moral up and up. Like, I love the character of Rachel because I love an anti-hero, you know? A little Taylor Swift reference for the kids. I was just going to ask. I was going to be like, oh, somebody listened to Midnights. That's a bop. Do the kids say bop anymore?

I like the word. I appreciate an anti-hero, and Rachel is, you know, the perfect example of that. And she doesn't try to defend herself to Haley. She takes the hit. She leaves when she's told to leave. Like, that takes a big person to do the walk away. And I don't think she gets enough credit. for that.

I agree. You know, I agree. Great. You guys have your fun. I serve my purpose here. I'm out. Yeah.

This isn't the end of Rachel, though, is it? Like, where's she going to go? Did they say she's expelled? I thought that's what the principal threatened, but maybe not. I don't know. He, like, when he's passing out that tent, he's just staring at the back of your head. I was like, so we had some, like, cheating scandals when I was in high school.

and they don't really do anything about it. Kids, just so you know, they don't really do anything about it. You could cheat in high school. You can? Yeah. So remember, listen, I didn't cheat in high school. I definitely cheated in college. Because remember, at the beginning of the internet, when you could buy papers?

Oh, my God, I would never. What? Hillary! Girl, I was a VJ. I was busy. I was working 40 hours a week. I didn't know. I mean, I know you were busy.

I just would never. never I listen there was one paper there was one paper on gulliver's travels and i could not do it and so i bought it online but it was like at the beginning of the internet so teachers weren't savvy to just like searching for sentences right i definitely bought one paper and i'm not even embarrassed about it because that's a dumb book i just loved writing so much that my senior year in high school i decided i wanted to take two AP English classes instead of one AP English class and an AP math. I was like, I don't need calculus. This is dumb. I'm going to go to theater. Bye. So they let me do it. So by the time I got to college, all the seniors were coming to me to be like, will you edit my paper for

fill in the blank class? And I was like, yeah. Maybe I bought one of your papers. And what I realized, no, I never sold my papers. I edited other people's, but I was like, God, it should have been charging for that. That is like valuable help. I legitimately paid $50 for a paper. Deliver's travel paper. And so when I scaled this shit about Brooke cheated on a test, I just don't care. I don't even care a little bit. I'm like, babe, graduate.

Get out of there. You're going to be great. I just, I wish there was like more emphasis put, rather than on your paper or on your midterm, I wish we put more emphasis on actually learning the information, on the ability to digest complex ideas and think critically and engage in conversation and debate with people. Could you imagine where our political system would be if we could actually just talk to each other instead of be like, the answer is B? No, it's B man. Like, it's so dumb. Well, also the fact that you were totally reliant, Brooke was totally reliant on other kids to help her pass this class. Like,

where's the adult? Where's the teacher? My calculus teacher's senior year in high school, I did well in the class, but I wasn't an A student. And he heard that I wasn't going to take the AP exam at the end of the year because I was taking all these other AP exams and I just didn't feel like failing it. I knew I was going to fail it. And he was like, Hillary, you have to take it. I'm doing after-school tutoring sessions. I will personally help you.

And Bruce Snyder, God bless that math teacher, made sure that I passed that AP exam. And I felt so good about myself after the fact, but it's the only reason I passed it is because an adult intervened. And had Brooke had that experience where instead of it being the boy that she's kissing, it's like an adult that sees this kid doesn't have a lot of parental interaction. She's trying really hard. She's the president of this club, you know. Yeah. If an adult had showed up and been like, baby, I believe in you, and you had to lie to that adult about cheating. That would have been fun.

That would have been nice. Yeah, like we had so many good teachers in real life. I wish we'd had good teachers on the show. I do, too. And it's weird because every once in a while we had a great experience and then they would disappear. Even Principal Turner, he's so militant in this episode. And, you know, him firing Haley felt so, it just felt so unfair. He knows her character.

It felt like Haley was a student he'd met for the first time. and for her to be able to say I had a feeling and I checked for my keys and whatever else it all just felt like a device that I didn't love I will say the device of joy bitch slapping DeNeil worked great whoever coordinated that stunt she was slamming the key down on the table

when Turner wanted it back and then she slapped the shit out of Rachel it was so funny and I loved watching the boys kind of be like damn, Haley. That was a great, that was a really great fun moment. And I love the way Antoine dismissed Rachel from the party because it wasn't, it wasn't like, you don't belong here. It was just like, time to go, mama. Yeah. Like it was firm and safe. And I love the way that that was all handled. And I get why Haley slapped her. Haley's getting a different set of

information than the viewer. And so it's hard to be like, hey, Lee, lighten up. Because our set of information is like, this chick is problematic at every turn. Yeah. Well, and she's coming for all of my stability. My husband, my job, my school. My best friend. Yeah, all the things. Yeah. All the things. Yeah. It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence.

That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore. her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I want to talk about Peyton and Lucas because I, I mean, I say this all the time.

Like, the fan base is like, you never redress it. Like, we're finally in a great place. I don't love Peyton and Lucas when they're sneaking around, you know? But Peyton and Lucas, like, in a decided relationship, we're going to be together. I love his interactions with Glenda in this episode. I love that Peyton wasn't jealous, but was like, Like, what book did you get that girl? Like, there's a little bit of just like, oh, do you want to tell me about it?

Yeah, she's like, well, what don't, what don't I know? Yeah. Knows that he's lying and doesn't call him out. Yeah. What I love about it, you know what it really reminded me of? Remember early on when Brooke and Lucas are dating and Peyton says, give him this CD. And Brooke does, and she's like, oh, yeah, track 13. And he comes to you and says there is no track 13 on this record.

Yeah, yeah. Like, I know this is, you gave her this. It's a callback to that for me, and the nostalgia is so sweet. And I can see how much fun you're having. Like, I actually made a note about how, you know, Lucas gave his book to Glenda, but didn't tell Peyton it was done. Like, what? And instead of being upset, she plays with him.

She thinks it's cute. She wants to get in there in a way that. It is fun. It's not threatened or threatening. And it goes back in every direction with you to. It feels nostalgic. It feels sweet. It feels pure.

I liked it because, to your point, so many of the relationships on our show are based in threat. It's like, someone's going to find out online. Someone's going to find out, I did this thing. Someone's going to find out, find out, find out. And Peyton and Lucas, because they were in the friend zone, zone for a long time have developed this rapport of like i could find out whatever about you i'm still into you you know like tell me the worst thing you did i know you know thanks for telling me but i already know um yeah and there was so much physicality between our characters you know

like it we'd had years of like are they or not are they or aren't they you know stolen kisses all that kind of bullshit. Once the floodgates were opened, they were just like, you two are just going to sup face, like, all episode. And the fans are going to love it. So do that. And I said to you, when Peyton and Lucas go upstairs to the bedroom at Nathan's house, I was like, why did they not have sex at Lucas's house where there was like some level of privacy? They're the only two people in the house. He's like, my mom's not coming home. Why do they go to a house party? with a hundred people downstairs at her ex-boyfriend's house where she used to have sex with him.

Yeah. To finally hook up is just embarrassing. But shooting that scene with my boyfriend and my brother and my boyfriend's dad and his uncle and, like, the entire crew that I was related to it for one way or another, watching was such a... Oh, God. Cringy experience.

And so Chad was a great... sport about it. He knew how weird it was for me to have the people yelling, rolling, and cut be the people that I, like, lived with. Yeah. And your actual boyfriend, and you're shooting a scene with your

TV boyfriend, and your actual boyfriend is watching? Oh, my God. He's the one yelling, rolling. I know. It's a nightmare. I'm so uncomfortable. So they would yell cut. But this is an embarrassing story. I hope Chad doesn't get upset.

I tell the story. There was one point where his beard hair got caught on my bra. And it pulled my bra away a little bit. And Chad breaked out and was just like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And it ruined the tape. And I was like, look, he, I don't think anyone saw it. But he was worried that other people saw it and didn't want to play it off like, no big deal. Like it was no big deal. Oh no. I'm like, who saw that? Did anyone's, it was so uncomfortable. and he was trying so hard to be like above board and I'm like you're making it a big deal I'm really going to need you to calm down right now oh my god yeah this is why we have intimacy coordinators now um because back then they were just like and go um but yeah he was very he was

very courteous and oh yeah we're just going to kiss for the next six seasons but what i really liked about it i liked the tenderness between the two of you in the scene in Lucas's room and that he is being a bit of a teenage boy who's like, well, why not now? Nobody's coming. And obviously you lean into it because the misdirect is that Brooke's going to interrupt.

But later, what I really liked that I didn't expect was what they gave to you for Peyton. I loved hearing a girl say, I'm glad we waited. You know, back then, like, look, at that time, Yeah, I wanted to hook up with you. And now I'm in love with you.

Yeah. Now I want all the things you said you wanted. Like, it's such a beautiful moment where these two people who couldn't quite get on the same level in their growth are finally right there on the same page. Yeah. And I loved it. I thought that it was so, I don't know, it was just lovely. Like when we were watching the scene, I went, oh my God, that was. was so nice. I really like that for you two together. Well, our scene, listen, we knew what was

coming at the end of the episode. Your anxiety, spoiled, spoiled the surprise. But the scene that we had when Brooke comes into Lucas's room and interrupts them hooking up, like, oh, God, how uncomfortable. Her and Peyton get to connect again. Yeah. God, it's exactly what you want to see between two teen girls where it's grace and it's like, I love you. Basically what that scene is, is these two girls saying, I love you, I love you, I love

you, I love you. She's hard, but I love you. And that's the subtext for every single line in that scene. Yes. I mean, Brooke saying, tell me what I have to do so you're comfortable, isn't I love you. And Peyton's saying, they're just my drawings. made them into something isn't i love you and it they're giving each other these gifts of i want you to have whatever you want and it's so it's so nice well and patent's addressing but like there's

no beat around the bush she's like i love him and i don't want me loving him to hurt you you know like let's just be grown-ups and talk about it we don't even do that no these little girls had it all figured out. Well, but what's so, what I loved about it and what felt really honest about it, even though they're teens, is because they've been in this tumult, I got the sense that Peyton's said that to herself over and over again. You saying, yes, Brooke, I love him, but I never wanted my love for him to hurt you. You have, you have distilled all your complicated feelings into that sentence you've gone you know what it is and it's like you've been waiting to give it to me she practices it in the car do you practice conversations in the car uh i i i'm more as like a as a quirky

anxious person i'm more re re-fight so like i had a fight you know i had an argument like six years ago with some like idiot i was dating and and now i'm like oh what i should have fucking said like after all these years of therapy and all the books i've read i have the perfect answer and then I'm like well that felt fun and then it's over like I don't really practice before I probably should I didn't know that there were people who didn't practice before I didn't know that there were people that like don't talk it out with themselves before they talk it out with other people and I was driving in the car with my daughter having a conversation in the rearview mirror and George said who are you talking to?

oh my god and i got called out by my kids i was like damn it that's embarrassing no i love that i love that you're having fights from six years ago i'm like oof what i should have said can you call me next time that happens so i could just listen oh absolutely i've even done it with like you know you know this because you were a vj like you get caught live on the air and someone asks you something really shitty and you're live there's nothing you can do about it like what i want to do to you i can't do to you live on the air oh disrespectful idiot you know whatever like you can't say that so you try to like crack a joke or like deflect and oh i have come up with some zingers that i wish i had on hand at the time but i just i didn't i will say well my palms are sweaty even being

I feel like I've just admitted like a deep dark secret. I know, I'm like, oh God. But I do think it's really helpful to like to practice certain things ahead of time. That is something I've been learning more like in coaching.

I'm like, oh, right. I'm allowed to do this. Like my coach literally said to me, she goes, you're an actor. You guys practice your lines before you do the scene and I was like, yeah, what's your point? That somebody wrote those. And she's like,

can write whatever you want. And I was like, oh, interesting. I've never given myself that permission slip. Listen, wait till someone's in your car and they call you out for rehearsing. Oh my God. These girls, Peyton and Brooke, have practiced their conversation. They have the most beautiful reunion. And then it's destroyed. Destroyed. Also, why is Nathan in the crowd on looking and Brooke is up by the TV? Like, it's all hard. her fault. He did this. Yeah. Everyone is looking at Brooke like she's the suss that did this

and he's the one that did it and recorded it and kept it. Yeah, and by the way, Peyton runs out of bed with Lucas going, oh no, they're watching my sex tape. Like, clearly Nathan has a weird kink and

suddenly it's the girls that are bad. Well, wasn't he the one that all said porn on his computer? Yes. Yeah. There's a pattern. man there's a pattern you little freak you little dirty boy i will say before we before his freakiness is revealed i loved i loved that sequence with brook and nathan outside yes i love those two being friends yeah i love the glimpse into their childhood friendship wrestling in the sprinklers and laughing like their friendship they're so similar in a world of people who don't understand them

Yeah. I love, I love seeing it. Of all the characters, they are the most similar, you know? They have the same parental issues. They have the same money issues. They have the same, I don't have money anymore issues. They have the same expectation and school issues. They are mirror images of each other. And I love the camaraderie between these two. I do too. I hope, I don't, I mean, I don't remember the next episode. I remember like punching you. But not you, like just punching the camera. But I don't know what Haley's reaction is going to be. Like that's a weird thing to find out that someone that's been your very dear friend and made your wedding dress, your husband. Like that's a lot. But so many years before you knew each other. No, it's like a year and a half, bro.

Like, it's not that far. Oh, God. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornellis.

who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We have a listener question.

Do we? Samantha. She says, can you walk us through the filming process a little more? How much is the script or the director saying, you'll enter here, pick up this cup, cross the room, et cetera, versus you getting to make those choices as an actor.

Once you have the script, can you play with the lines at all? I mean, here's what I'm going to say. the big crowd stuff, like the party. The pro-actor move is to walk onto set and be like, what does camera need? How can I make it work? Yeah. Because it's not just about you. It's about you and 50 other people. In the crowd scenes at the party, my little brother is standing over my shoulder when the sex tape stuff is happening. And that's all I can see is my brother John just being like, whoa. Whoa. So yeah, it's not about you in the big.

crowd scenes. When it's a scene between you and one other person, those feel like the opportunities to me where you can collaborate with the director and be like, I feel like I'd get up right now, you know? I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, I fully agree. I mean, I think a great way to illustrate that is there's the scene where mouth and skills are facing each other and Shelley walks in the door and back behind them by the doorway, you know, she walks between their two heads on camera and they decide to split and then camera follows mouth and then he goes one way and cameras following shelly and then they run into each other that's choreography from the director yeah that's the director saying this is how i'm going to get into this party

so as an actor you have to say yep i can do that great love it and then in other aspects you know sometimes to your point samantha yes the script says you know Brooke walks into the room and picks up a coffee mug because she's supposed to throw the coffee mug at Rachel or something. Like that will be scripted. But very often, if it's just a scene in the kitchen, props are not scripted and you get to figure it out. So it really is a case-by-case basis. You know, if something is so specific that it needs to happen by the end of the scene, it'll be on the page. And if it doesn't, it won't. And you can figure it out. But it's not only, it's not only, director dependent how much you get to collaborate but it's also very often decided scene by scene

I can always tell a scene that's scheduled for the end of the day yeah because it's a one shot of us sitting next to each other you and I do it all the time all the time hey do you just want us to sit next to each other and like talk out into the room so we can do this in a on a oner and not everybody, not every actor goes for that. Some actors are like, no, I need my coverage. I need to get up at this point and walk across the room. And, you know, that's, there's a difference between performance and being production friendly and you want to find like a good middle ground where it's like, this is authentic to the character, but it's also production friendly so we can shoot this in an hour and get everybody home. So yeah, it becomes, TV work is very, very different from movie work.

because it becomes about like technicalities and being able to do eight or nine pages a day every single day and get people home on time so that the union rules are followed yeah well and so that you can survive it

because if you're doing a you know you're doing a movie for four or six or maybe eight weeks and that's like a crazy long movie a TV show you're shooting for 10 months a year yeah and you're working 16 or 17 hours a day, you do not have time to add an extra hour to the day. You just don't have it. I love a director that has storyboarded their shit and knows exactly what shots they want. And I'm just like, it feels like basketball practice. I'm like, show it to me. I can make

that shout. I'm like, oh, you're so prepared. I love it. Who do you feel like is our honorable mention in this episode? I loved Rachel saying, Brooke, you're my friend. That was it for me. because I feel that way about my girlfriends from high school like things can be really really really bad

and I can share a text with one of them and be like you're my friend and that fixes everything you know yeah I love that it's perfect is that yours what's yours well yes that that was on my mind

and now I feel like I have to crack a joke and say are we sure it's not Nathan Scott's nipple ring in the flashback video you know how like in time it's like like A.D. and B.C. Like before Christ and after death. I feel like there's like

before nipple ring and then post nipple ring in the world of Nathan Scott. That's how we measure time and he's so funny. Like it being in the close up when he's setting up the camcorder you're just like oh yeah this is this is early tree hill days gross. gross are awesome one or the other i don't know poor james can you imagine getting like a piece of metal just spirit gummed to your it's a hard no for me and no one's ever asked me to do that maybe the next job and i don't want it yeah i don't want it i just talked to my son about getting

gus's thing about getting his ear pierced and i told jeff i was going to go with him and he's like what are you going to get pierced and i was like i don't know like what does a grown woman get appears at this age. He's getting another hole in your ear. I might get another hole in my ear. I think he was excited that I was going to get a Nathan Scott nipple ring. I mean, ooh. Oh, God. Could you imagine? Oh my God. If I do, you'll get the picture of it. Okay. That feels fair. It'll be you. Great. Are we going to spin a wheel? Let's spin a wheel, babe. The wine kicked in. I'm having a great time, Sophia. I know. I just finished my little baby glass and I'm like, maybe I want another.

Another, I'm going to go cook dinner now. Who's most likely to skip school? Well, on our show? Seems like all the kids are skipping school. Nathan skipped school to go see Deb. Lucas skipped school to go buy a tucks. Yeah, it's like they don't even bother going anymore. Do they just have free periods?

What's going on? Yeah, that's weird. Most likely to skip school, I feel like Nathan, he's always like doing something weird. In real life, not you. Not me. Not you. Not me. I will say the first time I like legitimately skipped school.

It was senior year. Blair Witch Project came out and I skipped school with my best. You went to see it? I skipped school with my best friend Erica and my brother and his best friend and we're like in my cutlass and we drive to the movie theater and we're like, God, I hope no one sees this. It's the middle of the day. And we watched Blair Witch Project fully believing that it's real because it was marketed as a documentary and not a fake movie. And we leave and we're so unsettled because we live in Northern Virginia

and it's very close to the Maryland Woods where that shit takes place. And we're so creeped out. But then we have to pretend with our parents like we're fine. And we had a totally normal day and we're not creeped out. That was my school skipping experience. I mean, Joy skipped school a lot to do her soap opera. yeah it's her she's the school skipper yeah you're right she was like goodbye she was like i'm working and going to the fancy bar to drink champagne i'm fabulous she was out

it wins all right oh honorary school skipper what do we got next week honorary school skipper next episode is season four episode 15 prom night at hater high i might dress up we probably should this is going to be a gnarly one it's almost like the next episode to me is two episodes there's like the flashback to the brook and nathan mess there's the big peyton and brook fight that we know is coming and then prom night means derrick is back which feels like a full episode all in its own we might have to do two we might have to split this shit up guys at home we can't we make no promises george has a bunch of tiaras and she just got for christmas here so i'm probably going to get fancy oh my god

But yes. Let's get fancy. I'm ready. All right. All right, friends, get pansy with us next week. We love you. Love y'all. Hey, thanks for listening.

Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens, O-T-H. Or email us at Dramaquins at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comment. Drama girls, cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens.

Smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Drama, drama queens, drama queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV.

who opened the first native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.