Drama Queens - If the Shoe Fits • EP508

Episode Date: June 19, 2023

Hindsight is a powerful tool. It's like getting a second chance to have a first opinion! Sophia, Hilarie and Joy look back at some classic OTH drama from this episode with a new lens and you may be surprised by some of their opinions (they were!) See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl. Drama queen cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. I loved this episode.

You guys, I'm, I am emotionally exhausted right now. All these years later, you're still exhausted. I feel every feeling. Yeah, that's a lot of crying. Yeah, it's a lot of crying. It's every scene. God, but yeah, every cell in my body still feels all of it. Pathetic.

Wow. This was big. Yeah, they really, there was just so many untied things in the episode. before and there's still a lot of untied things but it was nice how sometimes i've seen them we've seen them do episodes where it's like they're drawing something out and it's not they're not solving anything for us yet but it still feels really boring and this one they did a really nice job on because every piece of it felt interesting everybody's dealing with a different catastrophe yeah this was such a good episode season five episode eight please please please let me get what

I want. Give them the synopsis, ladies, because it is gorgeous. Gorgeous. Air date February 19, 2008. Peyton admits her true feelings to Lucas. Brooke makes a play for Owen, and Marvin tries to convince Millicent he's a, he's a better man than what she thinks he is. So Haley wrestles with whether or not to reveal the information that could ruin Lucas's relationship. And Nathan is put in a position that could end his whole marriage.

You think? Yeah. And Lucas and Antoine face the coaching prospect of playing their season opener at a disadvantage. Directed by Paul Johansson, written by the fabulous Mike Daniels, who ended up marrying Michaela and McManus, who plays Lindsay. Like such a happy, happy, gorgeous love story. By the way, Mike and Michaela got married, Brandon Kirsch, our basketball coach, who is also in this episode, and Lisa Goldstein, who plays. and got married. We had so much. There was real love. Yes, cross-pollination.

Yeah, gorgeous, gorgeous, you know, love that came out of this season in particular. My goodness, what an episode. I just hope that Mike and Michaela's real engagement was better than this one because this proposal sucked. I mean, but, and to his credit, he took like a sucky thing and like gave everybody really good words. And so by the end of that journey of the engagement, it's like, oh, God, thank God these two are together. You know what I mean?

Like I was feeling like, oh, thank God they worked this out until Peyton knocks on the door. And I have to snap back into reality and be like, oh, nuts. I forgot what side I was on. Yep. I mean, half the, I mean, the first act was all like recap. Yeah. Were we saving money still? Yeah, probably. But it's amazing that Mike, it just shows. a great writer Mike is because it's amazing that he was able to take an episode that was full of recap and kind of several of the same type of scenes over and over and over again. I mean, especially for Peyton and Lucas. Oh, God. Do you know what I mean? Like, you guys were covering one conversation, but like six different ways. And the fact that he made that so good, he's, this is why people

are bringing Mike Daniels into write and run their shows because he's brilliant. Yeah. I mean, he's so, so good. And, you know, to the point of when you take a situation that can be so uncomfortable, I was doing a menial chore to get my mind off of how angry I was, who hides a ring in a sock drawer, like, you're like, oh, everything is so bad. This is bad, bad, bad, bad. And somehow, through the tears and the fight and that I'm done feeling like I'm not good enough, it does turn into a proposal that you're rooting for. And I had a moment while we were watching it, where I was like, I hate this for her,

but I want this to work. Yeah. Because when she smiled, it was real. She's so good. When she's like crying, she's so happy when he finally asks. Oh my God, Lindsay is just so good. I literally wrote down the joy on her. her face. This is played so well. Yeah. It worked. And somehow I was, I was trying to justify. I was

like, I guess when you're a kid, you can be confused and your ex-girlfriend who you love and you kiss her back, but then you see the woman you love and you're just like, I got to throw myself into this so that I don't go down a trail that I don't want to go down. And like, my brain was running through all the justifications of, is this okay? It's not. Like, it's not okay. But I kind of wanted it to be okay because I think there's so much chemistry between the two of them. Yeah. And the emotions were just so real. Let's talk about the Lucas stuff because we all were like, oh, God, wrong thing to say. Because he does the same thing to Lindsay that he does to Peyton. Remember with Payton? Yes. He was like, you don't think I can make it, right? That's why you don't want to marry me,

because you didn't think I could do it, you know? And then with Lindsay, he's like, I was waiting until I knew I had a second book in me because I know you don't want to be married to just the small town basketball coach. Like there is a nerve there. And not saying it's a bad thing, but boyfriend has a soft spot and don't hit it. It's a bruise. Well, he has such intense imposter syndrome. Yeah. And, you know, so many artists do that it has a name, right? Like, imposter syndrome is a term. Is a thing. Yeah, you know, but I, I wonder, like, is that his sort of, like, I kind of want to roll my eyes at it and go, okay, is that the writers being annoying, being like, oh, the tortured artist, Matt, man, like, the best artists are actually, you know, people who go to therapy and deal with their shit, but people think, like, I've got to be this tortured artist, I've got to be this addict, I've got to be a mess. And part of me goes, is that writer is, right? romanticizing a tortured artist or is it what's striking me in this moment is it a really interesting thing for the brother who grew up on the quote unquote wrong side of the tracks

whose you know single mom struggled for his whole life is it an interesting thing for Lucas as a character to have this suffering tortured artist persona because his brother, granted, yes, suffered in an injury, has been dealing with this really terrible year. But like, your brother's in the NBA and you're trying to write another book when your first book was about the girl that broke your heart? Like, I don't know. I'm having this, like, aha moment of, oh, does it track? For sure. I mean, it's economic anxiety. Absolutely, have tracks. Would you grow up a poor kid, man? I get butt hurt about stuff. Like, I hate fashion. I hate fashion because my whole life I got made fun of for wearing a hand-me-down clothes and high

waters. Oh, those bitches at school made so much fun of me for in high-water jeans because I would grow out of them so fast. And I just, as an adult, tense up about that shit. And so I can understand Lucas Scott being the kid who came from less being like, don't you look at me like I'm not as much as everybody else. Like don't pity me. You know, I am enough. And knowing he's going to want to provide for a family and like not have Lindsay have to carry the financial burden the way that he saw his mom carry that burden, I think that's got to be a trigger point for him too, wanting to be able to also contribute to a household. Well, I do like Lucas and Lindsay together in a world were Peyton Sawyers back with Jake Jigelsky? They would have lived happily ever after

and had beautiful little bookie babies and like they'd have been great. Yeah, they really are good together. Yeah. Oh, and Michaela's just so fun, you know. She's a good actress, but she's also just fun on set. When Peyton knocks at the door, she's so happy. Like, she can't wait to show Peyton that ring. She holds it up. Oh, yeah. In my, notes which are all like the quotes and the things so we can talk about them just all in caps and then Peyton just it's the one row of caps in my whole note section oh boy dude you you coming to apologize oh my god for what you did because he still loves you and then her holding up a ring i can't even look at you i'm so uncomfortable well and Lucas looks like such a hang dog you know if he if

He was into what he was doing. He would do, like, what Nathan does and give, like, a really firm, like, just smile at Peyton and be like, hey, this is my life. Like, make eye contact. Own it. Have a nonverbal connection there. Instead, he's just, like, dodging her and looking real shifty. Just being a little boy. Oh, my guy.

He's just not ready to take responsibility for many things. Why didn't he just say it's the ring that Keith gave to Karen? Like, it's a family heirloom. It's not... It's Keith's ring. Yeah, why didn't he say that? Because he's complicated. Well, there is also something about being 21.

Mm-hmm. I just wanted to get married so bad. It happens in the moment. Y'all are nodding and I'm nodding because we all did it. Yeah. It happens in the moment and you go, well, trains leaving the station. I better get on it. Yeah. You think you have so much time when you're young that you're like, things will magically work themselves out. It's all going to be fine. You also do this thing where you go, oh, if the scene from the movie is happening to me, it's happening so it must be meaningful. we assign oh if it's happening it's because it's supposed to rather than how do i feel about this

what do i want is this right like you it's very easy at 21 to go well here we are so i'm gonna i'm gonna go with the flow yeah and that's the thing that we certainly didn't unlearn so how How did we expect our characters to unlearn it? Well, Haley figured it out. She's the only one asking questions and just being like, what is happening here? The thing that kills me and that Mike wrote so beautifully is that Haley's asking all these questions of her friends and doesn't know to ask questions in her own house. Yeah. Oh, it makes what's happening in her house all the more upsetting when Nathan says.

makes it insidious. Forget what you saw. Let it go. When all these things, because she's going, well, I'm good. It's like, it's what you just showed us, Hillary. It's like the person who doesn't see the guy in the window. Who is that? Yeah, I mean, I like that Haley wakes up. Like, her and Nathan went to bed not so great. And I like that moment of like rolling over and just checking in with each other. It did make me wonder, though, when he was saying it's not your place to tell Lindsay, like, let's take a poll. What do you think?

Do you think Haley should tell Lindsay? No, I thought Haley did absolutely the right thing and go to Lucas and be like, you're going to fix this. Lucas first. Oh, for sure. Yeah, that's what I thought too. I agree you start there. but I'm throwing a yellow card

on the fucking soccer field ladies I hate this thing of it's not your place don't get involved I disagree what's your friend though well that's it everybody will do the thing where they say no no it's not your place

and then you know what happens is everyone in your life says well it's not my place it's not my place it's not my place is it yeah that's it's why a car accident can happen And 40 people can be standing on the sidewalk going, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. And no one calls 911 until one person points and says, you call 911.

You do this. People need a directive. And I will say that I think this notion that you shouldn't get involved is not cool because it's what allows people who are dishonest and shitty to their partners to get away with it. Yeah. I mean, that's, I think if it were, it was like junk and Fergie and those guys like talking to Lucas saying, hey man, that's not cool. He might brush that off. But Haley is his lifelong best friend and just cuts through the shit with a quickness. Yeah, that's the whole reason. But you have friends. Like, sure, you're going to have people to like hang out with. But

there are supposed to be people in your life that will call you on things. And, and you're going to step up. And if you're in danger, they're going to jump in for you and say, like, hello, you're in danger. I've got to tell you something. And that's what you need is for people who say, I love you enough to tell you that what you're doing is fucked. Wait, are you calling Peyton Danger? Because that sounds fun for me. Baton is dangerous. You're in danger, right?

You're in danger, baby. It may look different, but Native culture is very different. alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore.

explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, I thought Haley, like, I was hoping that she would go to Lucas first and not go to Lindsay first because that's her first priority in the friendship that she's been a part of for a long time. But she doesn't even get a minute. Yeah, I mean, after a minute, like if Lucas really continued on down that road and never told Lindsay, I don't know what I would do if that was my friend.

I think I'd probably be like, listen, I'm going to have to tell her because I'm friends with both of you guys. I can't just, like, sit here. So you got to tell her or I'm going to. Have you ever had to do that with a friend? Like if you don't tell with a friend's like somebody you found out was cheating. If you don't tell her I'm going to? No. I mean, no.

But that's the move, right? Like if you were put in that position, that's the move. It has to be, right? Y'all, listen, I'm a huge Vanderpump Rules fan. And so I have had my fill of cheating this season. If you don't watch the show, it means nothing to you. But if you watch this terrible. reality show, you're like, San DeVall's the devil, because he cheated on Ariana. And so I'm more

worked up about these strangers. So what's wild is I don't watch it, but my friend Elizabeth, who has a phenomenal podcast, did a whole episode about this. And I was like, I'm watching your stuff. Tell me what happened. So I had her tell me about it. And then because you and Jeff watch it. And I have two friends, like two of my best friends, one in L.A. and you two in New York, who are obsessed with this shit. So all the Instagram algorithm serves me since it started, this. And so I have never seen this show, and I know more about these people, more about the exposed

timeline, more about the fact that these people cheated behind the woman's back when she was at a funeral. I know all this shit. And I have never seen one episode of a Real Housewives or a Vanderpump. I don't know if they're associated. I feel like she's on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. Maybe she's not. I don't know.

Okay, she is. Great. I know so much about this against my will. I'm so glad we could give that to you. Oh, against my will. But now that I know I'm invested. Because here's the deal. It always gets exposed, right?

it always gets exposed down the line and what I learned from the reunion special is that if you're on the side of keeping secrets for someone you look like an asshole on expose day and so

don't hide shit for your friends don't be an enabler if something happens like once like this Lucas Payton thing in the office I don't know if I even consider that cheating to be perfectly honest that is a trauma bond that has a lot of like you are a nicer person than I am I'm also the bitch kissing him so

that's true you're making an excuse for your character I get that I'm like let me tell you what if my partner made out with some I'd be like I'm I'm gonna have to kill her we got a fight one of you has to die like it's gladiator times who pick I know it's super it's super easy when it's fiction it's really easy because we know these kids we've watched them since they were little they're just they're just sorting it out but when it's strangers on a reality show i'm like he's gotta die but that's also remember we talked about that a while back how you can excuse and humanize and um have empathy for bad behavior on behalf of people you know and love even if they're the characters you know and love with strangers we're just ready to like light them

on fire. Who's worse in this week's episode? Nathan, who's hiding some shit from his wife. Oh, boy. Or Lucas and Peyton who are clearly headed down a dangerous path. Y'all. It's bad. Nanny Carey being like, you have pain

on your face. Oh, it's on your islands. And we can see that it's not. It's not. It's just, it's so right outside of his son's bedroom where he could have just gotten up for a second and poked his head out in the hallway. and been like, I have to go to the bathroom or whatever.

It's just, it's amazing to me. Amazing. And I really don't understand why Nathan seemed so confused. He just stood there looking really confused. And it's so not confusing to me. Did it make you mad to watch, Joy? Yes, it did. Because obviously I'm still in my Peyton body.

Like, in your Haley body, you're like, I'm going to murder them. Yes, made me mad. Like, stand up for your family, damn it. Yeah. Push her down the stairs. Push her away. And then put her in a taxi. Tell her to pack her bags and put her in a taxi.

You need to leave tonight. Then the fact that you guys have that scene in the kitchen. Yeah. And what I thought they did so well in the edit was when he looks for you, you're looking at something. You're like in the fridge and then you're doing something on the kitchen island. And it feels like a misconnection. But my God.

He was like waiting to tell me. As soon as I came in, he was standing at the counter like, yes. I got to figure out how to say this. I got to figure out how to say it. And then Haley says the one thing that gives him and out, some secrets are better left unsaid. I loved it when you guys were in bed and you're like, I saw Lucas kiss Peyton. And he said, maybe it was just a friendly kiss.

And so when nanny Carrie's like doing the fake paint And I'm like Maybe this is just a friendly kid Maybe But it's also interesting In that scene with you guys He says

It's not your place He needs to be man enough to tell her And then at the end of the episode When he's confronted with the opportunity To tell you He can't Because again when you're in a situation it's really hard to overcome your feelings and the conflict

and the I don't want to ruin a good thing for my family and she's having this time in her job and whatever it is. I'm also flattered by this could be the subconscious choice. But when we look at other people, we're just like, should be easy, say it, figure it out. yeah no i i think that's a really interesting thing that again to his credit mike daniels as a writer was able to weave the ease that we have for seeing the clear black and white of someone else's situation and then the minute that it's ours it's so confusingly gray he did a really good job

for everyone in this episode of giving them like real emotional turmoil. Well, I love Brooke Davis's emotional arc in this because it is kind of morally gray. She's everyone's great friend. Like, Brooke shows up for everyone. And the one little piece of candy she wants for herself is this Owen thing. And he keeps pushing her on all of the superficiality that she's able to use as her armor and it could go one of two ways it could be gross and like super alpha male like you're not

in charge here but the way it's crafted it comes off like he actually does want to get to know this person and he doesn't care about the clothes and he doesn't care about the cars did you like doing this arc with joe i loved it especially because you know we were five seasons into this show. And there was this, there was just this whole idea that, you know, TV was amazing and that everything was amazing. And in a way, I actually felt a real parallel between what Brooke and Owen were doing on screen and what Peyton did with Molly saying like, oh yeah, you read a story and you thought how romantic that he carried me out of the school shooting. I was trying not to bleed to death.

The reality of a situation is not often how the story gets told. And what I loved about what the Brooke and Owen storyline was, is that Brooke Davis as a character was like, oh, yeah, if I'm always going to be on display, I'm going to figure out how to use it because I can't admit that it makes me really uncomfortable. And it gave me this avenue to figure out, like, where my gratitude for our job was, but also where the discomfort with the sort of, like, always being expected to be on was. and in the stuff with Joe and I, even though for me, as Sophia, there was conflict and confusion,

I never felt permission to show that because the minute that you're on a quote-unquote hit TV show and you say like, this is hard for me. People are like, shut the fuck up, you're ungrateful. Yeah, yeah. But it was hard for all of us in a lot of ways. And I liked that my character leaned in and then had someone else saying but that can't really be what makes you

happy right i was like whoa this is this is cool i love seeing brook use all of her all of her usual tricks and her cute flirtatious things in the backseat thing you know it's like all she keeps every time she comes toward him it's with all these tricks or every time he tries to come get to know her she busts him out and he's like Can we, how do we weed out all this stuff? Because I actually really do want to get to know you. I think you're really worthwhile. But I'm having trouble getting past all of the things that you're throwing up to distract

me from who you really are. And what I loved was that when he came to the store, he was basically like, oh, you have a gimmick. I'm not going to gimmick. And then she was like, oh, baby boy, you haven't seen my gimmicks. You want to see them? I'm going to give you all the gimmicks. And then when I break you, I'm going to say, no, no, you said no gimmicks. Bye.

Like, I loved. I loved the energy of that. But she didn't break him. Oh, yes, she did. No, he was totally playing her. That, like, he was like, fine. Yeah, you win. Okay, I'll give you exactly what you want.

And you're going to be too scared to actually go through with this. Oh, see, I didn't feel that. I felt like. Oh, 100%. Oh, that's so funny. In having done it, it was, it was. very, very much like, I remember the night in that, the night in the car. It was like so visceral. Especially because he, she like makes a wisecrack about his car and he gets all mad

about it, which was so macho. He gets so mad. And the, and the irony for me playing Brooke, not that Owen would have known it, but was like, my best friend drove this comet. Like you guys basically drive the same car. I don't give a shit about your car. hard. Owen and Peyton are a lot of like in a lot of ways. No, they really are. And it tracks for us. And I just loved that there was this moment and I remember being in it that night and just be, you know, Joe and I talking about it and him being like, it's kind of great that in every way that he pokes her. She's just like, okay. Until he, until Brooke loses her mind and she says, what is the comment about the fugly giantess?

Oh my gosh. Fugly giantess. Oh, God. I loved fugly giantess. Fugly giantess. So much. So much because that's Brooke Davis breaking that wall a little bit. Just being like, all right, fine.

Just whoever this troll is. I loved that because then she pulls it together. but then stews about it with Jamie, which is so cute. Oh, I loved that scene of you guys out there with the chocolate ice cream. It was so nice to see the town, too. Yeah. That scene for me with Jackson, like this whole season truly was like our season of being the best of friends.

And like, you know, I babysat him all the time. Like he was just such a sweet kid. It was like a really precious moment. And then, you know, of course, like everybody grows up, like, you know, he started playing, like, local sports with other kids. I became less cool, but this is the year that I was like the cool big sister and we had the best time. And probably one of the, like, top five sense memory experiences that I have from the whole show is that scene in that blue satin tank top. And Jackson with chocolate ice cream all over his face and his little so happy and like we just had the best time. And I remember figuring out with him how that scene was going to go and like little tricks to be like, hey, if you say it to me like this, remember that Joe said it like this and and and this little boy figuring out how to do like comedic calls. And, oh, it was so, it was so, so great.

I love that. What's under the clothes, Brooke Davis? He can't decide how I. So lucky. Peel about that line. I know. That's how I felt. I was like, I don't know if I love that they made a five-year-old, six-year-old boy say

that. I don't love it. I don't love it. But it was funny. I mean, it is real life, I guess. It's real life. But that he could see it. Like, that the whole point, Owen's point was,

what's under the persona. of the fashion designer. And then this boy saw it. Yes. He saw Brooks' reaction to it. Yeah, it was only really at the end of the episode that you were like, okay, she's going to pull out like this high school trick.

And then... Oh, my God. I mean, it's like a cold shower she gives Owen. Just like, okay, bye. See you soon. Man, I think he was calling her bluff. I'm going to go down, swinging on that. I was disappointed.

I really thought she was going down. It was like if everyone else is miserable, At least we should get some little love. Yeah, she was such a good friend to Peyton. Like, she's been helping everybody out. She babysat all day. Like, let the girl hook up with the cute bartender. It'll happen.

Delayed gratification. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to be. become a television writer because it does feel oddly like very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for the content of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence.

That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. every day native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream listen to burn sageburn bridges on the iHeart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts i will say because you just said you know the way that she shows up for peyton

I that's one of those other things that I have a visceral sense memory of is that scene with us and I remember getting into it I remember you know all the stuff we had to do to set up the fireplace because like for our friends at home these weren't real houses that wasn't a real fireplace it's like a you have a fire safety team on set yeah it's a long tube a big like can of gas and a guy with a big mustache, usually with a cigarette dangling out of his mouth. Exactly. And like, oh, that scene was so special. And I remember when we were shooting it, you know, because the house was built on a soundstage. So I was coming in from, you know, outside, but there was no outside. There was no there. And opening that door and coming in, you were just, you were like a raw nerve. and it was beautiful and it made me

I was like instantly back there with you and it made me want to cry because you just were so present in this I cannot believe I thought this was my story and now I'm here and he's engaged to someone else and it was like oh my God it was so beautiful and then we burn the book

come on I'm all burn that book. Hillary you cried like six different ways in this episode. Somehow you managed to pull out a new emotion every time. You guys know that's why I'm such a goober now is because I'm never going to

cry again. I loved that scene. I loved it so much. I loved it when we did it. I love it 15 years later. I remember it so, so well. And I think it stands out to me so much because I

don't let people touch me. I don't like people touching me. And I can do it because I know how to be a people pleaser, but people in my life don't touch me. And Brooke and Peyton are so physically connected with one another. It's a thing that I love because it makes it so singular. Like Peyton and I are the same that way. The scene of Peyton at her mother's grave all by herself or sitting on the pool table by yourself, that's most like me. But when you have that special thing where it's like, oh, there's, there's that one person that's allowed to touch you. My girlfriend's share a game is that person here where I live, where she doesn't

care that I don't like to be touched. She pulls me into her big bosom and she's like, get in here. So it's, I can feel Peyton's reluctance to connect with a lot of people that way, but that she's just got that one mothering person. It's so important. It's really interesting that you say that because the thing that struck me, and you know, we talked about it a little bit in the, in our podcast world at the end of season four, that in that finale episode, that house party, we had a real like holy shit experience together, you and I.

And I remember how everything felt different going into season five. Yeah. It was locked. And it was like, oh my God, the like the cellular memory I have watching Brooke and Peyton be roommates and knowing how that felt for you and me because it felt the closest to our initial like falling in love with each other at level five, like season one friendship again. Well, essentially it's what we were redoing. You guys, we got to come back after this five-year gap and redo what we had done season one behind the scenes. Like, it's so

meta and weird. No, it's so weird. And like, watching that moment and we sit and we put the book in the fire and like, I wrap you up and you put your head on my shoulder and I remember it and just being like, I'm going to hug you. And I'm still like that with you. And I'm still like that with you. You don't like to be touched, and I touch you all the time. I don't care. Yeah. I think those people in your life are so important. Because if it was up to me, I would just be like, oh, God, I don't know what to do with my body. Like, I need someone else to initiate. But there's something so special about that. And I even think about, like, when we all did that, that prompt thing, what was it at? Where were we? Oh, it was when we did our first, um, our first, our first,

like big live thing together. Oh, yeah. And we just like stood and hugged. Like it, there really is something about the people who've like been in it with you. Yeah. You can wrap you up when you need it and when you don't want it when you actually need it. Like, yeah. And I could feel all of that in this episode.

Like I could see it. Yeah. Everyone reaching for each other. Yeah. Like people needing to be together. Joy, it makes me feel bad that your character is like, isolated in a way, like you're at odds with everyone, or you're just like too busy to hang out with Brooke. Was it not fun? I don't want to be dismissive of like what you were experiencing in that

moment that we got to do all this like feel good. No, it's great. I love that for you guys. I mean, that's an iconic thing about this show that made people fall in love with it. And I mean, that friendship is reflected all over in girls everywhere. It's beautiful. I think they didn't quite know what to do with me. And I think we've talked about that before where it's like, okay, well, now she's married. She has a kid. She's a teacher. She's basically like a mom now. So what do we do with her? Did you ever feel like some of that also came from the fact that Nathan and Haley were always so popular that like the fans were like more naily more naily more nearly more naily and so in a way they kind of were like well we just got to give them more of this

and the rest of us yeah they just wrote us into a corner well kind of and like by the way I love watching Nathan and Haley and I love I love to the point of what we talked about earlier the way they're like the missed connections in this old nanny gary storyline they're so authentic they're so important but i do feel like in a way because nathan and haley got married really young haley became so much like yeah so much of the adult yeah and like while the rest of us were still kind of doing dumb kids you didn't get to do as much of it because your character was the wife, mom. The mature one had to be mature.

Yeah, and after Nathan, what he had been through with his accident and I think Haley also, well, I don't think Nathan and Haley spent much time just like being BFF and getting to, you know, it was always very romantic and then struggling through her tour and then struggling through his basketball in the college and there was just always so many things that were coming at her at them so i don't know maybe that's what this next season is for uh what's coming up not sure y'all just need to lay in bed and watch vanderpump rules together that's it that's it we just need to like i want to see them be buddies i do take a lesson from the morgan household and just watch reality tv yeah i want to see them be easy yeah me too me too so but that's not going to

happen any day soon and when they are easy in a way Haley in particular, because Nathan still got to kind of be one of the boys and a brother and whatever. And there were moments that the three of us got, especially at the start of the season when Nathan and Haley were in a rough patch. And the girls got to be girls. But it does feel a little bit like the writers missed the opportunity for Haley's continued girlhood, maybe because they were just so many dudes that they were like, well, the dudes are playing basketball. Like, she's off being a mom. Yeah, what do moms do?

What does my mom do? What do moms do? Moms make sandwiches. Like, what? It's so weird. You know, that's what they think, I guess. But Haley got a lot of, like, where we got to be roommates, where Brooke and Peyton got to have this sort of second adolescence.

Because Haley had a family, she got the producing. And then in the later seasons, like, you know, Hill, when you left, like Haley got a sister, like Quinn came into the mix. Oh, right. But Haley's world has really always revolved around family. And I wonder if subconsciously that came from, you know, her becoming the youngest wife and mom. I don't know. I've never really thought about it this way before, but now my brain is spinning.

I haven't either. All the girls I know that had babies in high school are like the spicy. most fun bitches like like for sure Haley could have been spicy man yeah there's a lot they could have done it's not like I was lacking in personality but I think I also you know as we know he liked to to our boss liked to mirror what was going on in real life and I was certainly in a personal place in my life where I felt isolated from everything and everyone and so maybe maybe kind of subconsciously I was bringing that to work as well and and maybe I was contributing to creating that in some subconscious way.

I mean, who knows? But our boss was also deeply reductive and only knew how to write women in certain ways. Like, he wrote the character of Alice to be like this predatory boss. And then, oh, she's fired. And guess what? Alice has slept with every single one of her employees, every guy at work. Any woman, like, oh, come on. The badump bump of that was so flat.

I was like, oh, man. Yeah, yeah. She couldn't just be like a, like a boss lady. She had to be a whore. Of course. Ugh. And it was Rick with a toupee and then it was Mouth's friend who was bald. And then it was Mouth also who was the nerdy guy.

And then it was also so and so, like, oh, man. And good for Millie standing up for herself because as much as I can't wait to see them find their way, the fact that he comes to her. that she would even know this, but I'm sure she could sense it. He comes to her on a rebound. I mean, I know he was thinking about her and he was quitting, but it was like, to me, it came across like he was reaching for her as like, maybe something good will come of, this choice that I've made. Like, see, I made a good choice. Will you reward me for it? And it's like, no, I'm not your being reward for making the right choice. I don't want to be the thing that makes you feel better about all the stuff that just happened. I super didn't like that

Mouth went to Millie and said, I'm not that kind of guy. I'm not that guy. Hold on. I wrote it down. Yeah, he wrote, I'm not that guy. But we saw what he did with Shelley. We saw how, like, creepy he was with Rachel half the time. Like, Mouth has been that guy.

And I had a conversation with my son driving to school the other day. I was just like, all right, you never tell people what you are. Don't say that you're a jock. Don't say that you're an artist. don't say what you are, just do the thing. Let other people decide what you are. Don't talk about it, be about it. And mouth, anytime someone says, I'm a good guy, that is a red flag.

Yeah, anytime anyone has to say, I'm the good guy. I'm, yeah, I'm a good person. I'm the good guy. What I liked, though, is that she made a decision about how she felt. And then he said, yeah, I'm not living up to the person I think I am. Well, you have the opportunity to grow for sure. And that's it, is that he got to be a kid who was like, well, I've been caught up in a thing and I'm not proud of it. Let me be the person someone might be proud of.

And I loved that when he realized he was being. kind of gross and saying, no, no, I'm not this, I'm not this. Then he said, you know what, let me give you a chance, or let me ask you to give me a chance. Let me show you who I am. And then suddenly it felt like we got our friend back, you know? He was like, let me take you to see this thing that's important to me. And then the big surprise is I can see any sporting event in the world. here's this ballet.

Tell me about why you love this. I was like, oh, God, Mike Daniels, that is good, writing. So, good. So, good. We're all products of our environment, you know. And when you're a kid, you don't get to choose your environment.

But then you hit the sage that our characters are at, and you do get to pick your environment. And Mouth had been in one that was toxic and making him toxic and awful. And so he's choosing a new environment. And Millie is just a fucking. oasis. Well, and by the way, Peyton does the same thing, however difficult it might be at the end

of the episode when she walks into that gym and says, I'm just going to pretend. Like, I watched this girl who lives through us and you know what I'm going to do is as hard as it is for me, I'm going to choose to be a person who's happy for you. And that speech was my favorite moment in the whole episode. I loved it. So beautifully. done. It was gorgeous. Like, Hillary, this episode for you was so good. And I loved seeing this group of friends in many ways through what said and unsaid, through what Haley says to Lucas and challenges him, the advice she gets from Nathan, some of what she hides and some of what she calls out, some of what, you know, Brooke is asking for versus holding close to the vest, what Peyton is

admitting and and and then trying to teach from like everyone is really really in it and it all gets encapsulated in that moment of I don't know what the answer is but what I'm going to do is show up for you and your happiness even if it's hard for me like everyone's just trying to figure out how to find it and how to witness it for other people and I really did feel like Peyton in a way for all of our characters became this guidepost in this episode and maybe it's because you do so much voiceover and you read from Lucas's book. But I don't know, I felt like all of us against those passages were just like trying to find it. And it really made for this like cool arc that when you see that moment in the gym, you go like,

everybody's doing the best they can and kind of failing by the way like everybody's really in a precarious position but we're trying and some people are succeeding you know better than others mouth is doing something right by the end and haley and nathan are conflicted and patin's crying and lucas is engaged and brook doesn't have sex with owen but like everybody's trying That's an hour. I don't do it. No, that thing that Mike wrote, it really resonated with me watching it all these years later. Because when we lived in Wilmington, like, I was hanging out with bands.

I was obsessed. There was this book called The Secret Lives of the Muses. And it was about all these women who had inspired great men. And at the time, there was no cooler thing I can think of than, like, being a muse. Right? Like, that was just such, like, a sexy idea. And now that I'm an old grayed-haired woman and I write books, I'm like, fuck that. Why would I ever be someone else's muse? Like, that's crazy. You have to be your own muse. And my favorite poet, Edna St. Vincent Malay, would do that. She would write love poetry about herself, about like, if I were a man, this is what I'd say about me. I'm fantastic. Oh, boss. I love that. It's so sexy and cool. And so I love. loved that monologue about you can write about yourself. You don't have to live and hope that

someone else writes about you. Yeah. And it's the right thing Peyton does with Lucas, too. I think going in and saying, I'll do it. I'll let you go because I love you and I care about you. And ultimately, like, letting you go on your way, that releases her too. And that is self-care. That is her loving herself and trusting that there's something better coming along the way. The only thing that's a little iffy. There's one iffy part. What? So, like, that leaf falls in the cemetery scene and, like, lands on Keith Scott's grave.

And, you know, it's a sign from her mom, like, be like Keith, right? We should all be more like Keith. But in Peyton, like, bringing that up to Lucas, it feels a scoge manipulative in being like, hey, I'm the Keith to your Karen. So you just do what you got to do, but I know you're going to come back to me. I don't know. I don't know if that's manipulative.

It's honest. That's what she thinks. That's like how she sees it. That's what she wants to be. It's a very like good thing to try to live up to. But she could have not said Uncle Keith, which is definitely like a trick. Like she could have kept that part to herself.

Yeah. It's a deep cut. It's true. but it's a deep cut. Yeah, she could have not said it. You're right. You better come back to me before I die. I'm just saying.

That's terrible. I know it's terrible. But y'all kids are terrible. 21, 22 year old kids are terrible. So we all have permission to just be nightmares. Free pass. Mm-hmm. I mean.

Now that I've pointed it out, you can't unsee it. Now you're like, oh, you ruined it. Yeah. Going. Okay, you at the end, though, on the pool table. I loved that choice. Was that you? Was that Paul? Did you walk in the room and it was all set up? I mean, I just thought everybody would always have you just at your desk drawing and it was so cool to see something

different. What's great about Paul, we've said it a million times, is that he already knew all the tricks, you know? He knew all the easy blocking, all the easy shit. And so Paul was just always up for a curve ball. And that set was so fun. God, you guys, I loved when we would all be on that set together. It was just, yeah, a really easy, fun, sexy set. You could go hide in a corner somewhere. Yeah, it was great. I loved it. Yeah. Well, why don't we have an office now with pool table? Sounds good to me. All right, all right. The episode ended with Lucas saying, why don't we get married right away. Oh, yes. That feels like a red flag to me. Yeah. Right. Lindsay's going to call him on it shortly, right? I don't know. She's really excited. She's

been wanting this for a while, and she finally got what she wanted. But she's so smart. I don't know. As I recall, he's going to leave her at the altar. Isn't that what happens? No, baby. She leaves him. She leaves him at the altar. Yes. Better that she leaves him. Oh, my God. I mean, we don't want to ruin it for anyone, but. Yeah, you can put in spoiler alert if you want, if you don't know. Sorry. It's been on television for like decades at this point. They don't know. Humphrey Boggart-Negman-Bergman don't end up together. Sorry, guys. Yeah.

We clearly have not seen it, that we have some memories. But if they haven't seen it, I don't know what else to say. It's crazy how much I remember filming this season. Like, I remember every part. I remember the wedding. We had fun. We were being bitchy in those pews. Yeah, it was fun.

Us sitting in those pews was so fun. I loved it. And the misdirects that come at the wedding were so fun. I will say you get some foreshadowing of that. Like, maybe this is my honorable mention, I don't know, but skills showing up to toast Luke on his engagement and being like, who is it? Who is it? Which one? Lindsay could be Brooke at this point.

That comedy was so good. Strong. What else did we miss? What did we miss? Anything? That's a Jamie calling a nanny carry mama. I was just going to say it. Jamie, I apologize.

I mean to step on here. No. Yeah. We're just looking at the same part in our notes, which feels sparkly because that was so, Mama, I mean, Nanny Carey. That was a knife in my gut. I can't imagine how you felt because I didn't even play his mom and I was upset about it. My first reaction was, that's not realistic.

No kid's going to mistake the nanny for his mother. But I have to say, especially when Maria was young, longer, you know, because her dad and I don't live together. So she, if she's been with him for like three weeks at a time, which sometimes the schedule is like that, when she comes back, you know, within the same day, we'll be, I'll pick her up in the airport or even the day the next day. And she'll say, she'll have something. She'll be like, oh, Papa. I mean, mom, you know, because she's just been so used to having it come out of her mouth all the time. It's totally realistic. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not malicious. It's, you know, it's just you're

the person helping me that is what I'm used to saying when I'm asking for help yeah and what I loved is that yeah that's an innocent mix-up on the part of a little boy and then that she as the adult takes it so far as to say sometimes I pretend you're my kid as this like little bonding aside while, by the way, genius point that Mike wrote for Carrie to come into close over bros and shop with Millicent being like,

yeah, what was that about? And I need a, and she's like, oh yeah, you want to go on a date like this top? Oh, yeah. And it's full single white female. It's so, it is so, so, so.

That makes you want to watch that movie again. Right? because in a way to see Carrie in the background of a scene that's about to begin, you just go like, oh my God, she's everywhere. And then she's in the closeover bros top and Haley calls and says, you're like, well, do I need to come home for dinner? And she's like, no, they're not here. And then they're upstairs.

Oh, my God. Every single scene gave me the creeps in the best way. Yeah. Which she turns out. Boys, dinner. Dinner's ready. The way it's unwinding. Oh boy.

We told you not to hire the hot nanny. We told you. Everybody was right. You were all right. We sure did. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like,

very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for the kind of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive

while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, do we have any fan questions? We do. I just saw one.

Carla, she's asking, where did you all film the outdoor scenes at the high school? And she's assuming any inside school scenes were on a set, which is correct. Yeah, the outdoor scenes were at, it was UNCW. No, it was Cape Fair Community College. Cape Fair Community College. Wait, wasn't it UNCW? Where do we go to UNCW?

Oh, was it basketball games there? Basketball games were Laney. Yeah. Laini, hi. And Bergaugh. UNCW, we did some, like, big, like, Ernest Wadd and I did some, like, military stuff there. Oh, okay. We definitely shot stuff there outside to use that campus, but we were downtown at Cape Fear Community College. I remember the campus. Yeah, Cape Fear

downtown was like our biggest, because that's where the quad was. That's where we were, Cape Fear Community College. Any bogey that just like happened to walk through a shot, thankfully would just look like an extra. Like, it really was the perfect set for us because we would have more extras just because people were walking to class. Did people just sign waivers if they were walking through? No, because they put up those big signs. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they would say, if you walk through this area, you consent to being on film.

Yeah. Which feels a little shady, but it's how they would do it. I loved those days. Spin a wheel? I think so. Yeah, it feels like it. This was a good episode. It was a really good episode, you guys.

Okay. I hope I've made any sense on this podcast post-show. It's like one o'clock in the morning for you. It is, but it's great. I love it. This is great. Guys, who's most likely to wait hours in the queue for Taylor Swift tickets? What is in the queue?

What does that mean? In line. Standing in line. Oh. Like, Brooke Davis is not going to wait in a line. No. Never. I don't even think Millie.

Maybe Millie would, but she also seems a little too proud. practical for that. I think Brooke Davis would be the one who denied waiting hours, but would. You think? Or wouldn't she just send someone else to wait for her? I don't know that she would trust someone else. Is it skills? Skills.

Skills who got notebooked? It's that skills. It's the skills in love. I mean, his favorite singer in real life is Phil Collins. That's true. He loves just like a power ballad, man. Yeah. Yeah, so hey, maybe he's our boy.

Okay. Yeah, he would do it. Wait, did anybody in our group go see the Taylor Swift show? No, I didn't. I was deeply actively trying and then I had to move to London. So, no. I had to give up some tickets. I'm still upset about it.

Jeff and I just saw Sisters of Mercy, which is a very different kind of performance. If you're into like goth metal from the, late 80s, early 90s, it is the antithesis of Sweet Taylor. Barbara. Oh, Barbara would do it with her girls. In real life. Yeah, that's the right answer.

She would, she would stand out there all fucking day to make sure her and those girls got in. Yep. And she'd make friends with everybody in line. And she would probably buy food for everyone. She would have snacks. They'd be like doing TikTok dances to Taylor Swift songs. She would teach the whole crowd. Yes.

That is the perfect answer. Yeah. All right. Thanks, everybody. I love it. What's next week? Season 5, episode 9, for tonight, you're only here to know. Hmm. Oh, boy. Sounds fun. Buckle up. All right. All right. Bye. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's O-TH.H. Or email us at Dramaquins at iHeartRadio.com.

you next time we're all about that high school drama girl drama girl all about them high school queens we'll take you for a ride and our comic girl cheering for the right team drama queens drama queen smart girl rough girl fashion but you're tough girl you could sit with us girl drama queen drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens It may look different, but Native Culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.