Drama Queens - Is She The Villain? with Amanda Schull • 721

Episode Date: December 16, 2024

Rob & Joy welcome back Amanda Schull who shares an interesting perspective about the difficulties of walking onto a set as a guest star. They also discuss many dramatic scenes from the episode including Alex’s feelings regarding the sex tape, Victoria and Haley’s intimate conversation and Katie being taken away by the police. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl, cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you're tough girl, you could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Hi, friends. Welcome back. We have Amanda Shul today. And we're talking all about episode 721. What's in the ground belongs to you. We have a synopsis here. Is it in the chat? It is. Amanda, do you want to do the honors and read the synopsis for us? Oh, gosh. Ooh, Nathan struggles to reach an increasingly despondent Haley while Quinn leads Jamie on this isn't in it. But what an epic tree hill treasure house.

Hunt. Oh, yeah. Holy cow. Julian shows his finished film to Brooke and Clay is forced to deal with the deranged, Katie. After we spent the whole Q&A trying to humanize her. She's back to being deranged. This was directed by Peter Koalski. Yeah, let's get into it, guys. Wow. Where do we start? What a fun episode. It really was. I have to say, I was all here for this treasure hunt. This was my favorite thing in the episode. I just kept waiting for these scenes to come back. I loved watching Chantelle and Jackson run around Wilmington. You could tell Chantel was having the time of her life.

Jackson clearly was too. It was such a great idea. And as a parent, I'm like, oh, what did I think of this? Oh, where do I hire that woman? Yes. The choice to open up, though, on the shot of her, digging in the woods by herself and having the camera at a low end, angle.

Oh, yeah. I was like, do we miss? Is she bearing a body? Is she preparing to bury a body? Like, what is going on? That was a great, great little teaser. Oh, yeah, I really enjoyed because she, I did believe everything that Chantel was saying. I believed it.

And I loved how she, like, led him along with it. She never did like a wink, wink, wink, you know. It was, she was at his level, just playing, having fun. And that was really enjoyable. But every single time they appeared, I was like, she waded into a fountain earlier that day for this kid. Holy cow. She went on like a creepy boat.

Oh, my. Like, this is like the aunt of the year award. Yeah. That is so Chantal, too, by the way. I mean, 100% her personality. She would do that without hesitation for anyone she loves. It's so sweet. she goes full out but it was it was so good we were talking with this last episode because there was a

scene where skills took jamie out just the two of them to have lunch and I was saying as a parent it means so much when you see another adult actually invest in your child and show up for your child and so I was saying it was for me as a viewer and as a dad I watched it and I I because I've been sort of upset with skills lately from some of his behavior in the way he's treating his friends and Lauren. And then that scene happened. I was like, well, you're all right, I guess. Isn't it interesting how it colors everything you see now as a parent? Like you see the world through a different lens. You're watching television. That's not children's television or like anything specifically kid related either. You're watching it and seeing it and appreciating it

differently. And now you have like a new fondness for a character just because of your own. offspring. And to see that Quinn put, listen, it would have been enough if she just showed up with Goonies. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, hey, this is something important to me that I think you might like. Let's have this experience together. That would have been great. But the fact that she did, I mean, let's be honest, that's about a whole day's worth of work. Yeah. Yeah. Prior to give him that experience, because that's what kids remember, you know, it's not so much the gifts as it is the experiences. Like, he's going to remember that for the rest of his life. Yeah. That was just, I mean, what a great way to show a character's character.

Mm-hmm. Her love. Yeah. I loved it. And I agree. It was also fun as heck. I love the movie or the Goonies personally. So like you, I was on board for all of it.

Yeah. Epic. Epic treasure hunt. Quinn saving the day. How about the opposite of Quinn? Yeah. Yeah. I think we're going to the same place.

That was another shade of it was that it wasn't just Quinn being a great mom. It was her taking the temperature of. the room and realizing that she needed to kind of step in and you know and be there while while haley was sort of absent yeah not needing to talk about it either that that's also kind of something lovely that i noticed it wasn't like hey so let's sit down and talk about your mom you know which kids i mean he's a little bit older but kids don't want to talk about the thing you know she let him just be a kid and then he guided her back you know at the very end and then that beautiful sweet note you know where we all just kind of broke a little bit you know

but but it is it is it is it is really different to watch it as a parent now to see an adult showing up and not needing it to show up because of the thing I'm just showing up because I love this movie and we're just going to watch this movie. That's so true. Kids don't want to talk about the thing. And they don't necessarily need to. Like, I learned that just being a parent, you know, that I'm such a problem solver. I love to dive into things and dissect things and figure out the thing.

And having a kid really gave me a new ability to just step back and like, we don't have to solve everything. right now. We don't have to dissect everything right now. Like if there's something you want to talk about, what's the most efficient, least amount of talking that we can do? We can say one or two things to each other and then move on. If I've got a point to make, I better make it quick because she jumps on me too. She'll be like, okay, mom, I'm lost. You're boring me. I don't, I'm, it's too much. Okay. So it takes, it's a skill to learn how to do that. And I love that Quinn has that skill without even being a mom, she just, she just has that instinct to, no, we're pals. Let's just, let's just hang. Things get worked out sometimes just by being in someone's presence. You don't always have to

talk about it. Yeah, I think adults like to talk about it. And kids can work through it more easily. I've noticed that with my son, first of all, something I've learned from him is how to just get over stuff. He doesn't dwell on stuff. And he's taught me kind of the art. of not just forgiveness but of just yeah people do some cruddy things sometimes and then it's up to you to get over it you know and he'll just get over it and if he wants to talk about it a little bit you know and I'll say I'm sorry that I got upset earlier I was really frustrated and I was in a rush or you know whatever it is and he's like it's okay where rather than just dwelling on it and being like yes when you got up you know he's just he's a kid and these little things happen and

you just move on. Do you think it's partially because of what we were talking about earlier about how people, you know, it's very human nature to want to compartmentalize and reduce people down in the moment to whatever the worst moment is, that as adults, we feel the need to explain ourselves so that we don't get reduced down. And with kids, kids don't have that instinct. It's just like they can see you as a whole picture and that one little thing. doesn't color the whole picture the way that we are we overthinking things like what is that

all the time we are yeah all the time we are i mean think i i try to remind myself it's like whatever happens it's all just information and it's the narrative that i choose to hang on it that makes it painful or joyful and i think the thing with kids is they're just they're they're not they're not putting a narrative on things it's like that happened i'm going to feel it and then it's gone. Whereas adult, it's like, I got cut off in traffic. Well, it's because that person thinks their time is more valuable than mine. They don't care about me. They probably think they're better than me. It's like, I will, my brain is a meaning-making machine. And it is constantly telling me a story. And I suffer because of that story, not so much because of what actually happened.

You know, and I think kids just, they haven't had that trauma yet. They haven't had whatever, had to develop the coping mechanism yet. So they're just like, cool. You did that thing. It stunk. Great. What do we have for lunch? Yeah. And they take you at your word, too.

Like, if I do something that is, if I am dismissive or I don't pay attention to her in a moment when she is asking me to. And then I forget what she said. When I apologize, they, it's okay, okay. Thank you. They accept your apology. Accept it. And move on. Yes.

Man. Hey, hey, can the three of us make a pact? that we are going to accept apologies and move the F on. Yes. At least the next month. Let's work on the next one. Can we do that? Guys, we're like the emotional goonies.

Okay, we're going on our own adventure, hoping to find serenity and peace. Yes. Let's check back in in a month. I'm so in for that. I'm in it. I have a note in my phone. I have two notes that I keep at the bottom of my to-do list, so I see them every day. And one of them is, just don't take it all so seriously, which I need to remind myself of all the time.

And stop assuming you know how this is supposed to go. Yeah, good one. Because it's like, but the kids, you're right. It's like, just don't take it so seriously. Because in my head, it's like, come on, we're going to, you know, this isn't when we do bath time. It's like, it's bath time. It's just a bath. Like, the stakes couldn't be lower.

You're just tired and you haven't had a meal in eight hours. Have a snack. take a breath it's all okay you know what I mean the stakes couldn't be lower I see it but it really grows in us the older we get you know my daughter's 13 now

I can see in her and her friends the fear around school around you know even as something as simple as raising your hand in a classroom that fear grows in us it's not that wasn't there when she was five and six in kindergarten in first grade

if she had a question you just raise your hand you just shout it out And it's the repetitive squashing of curiosity, I think, and that grows this sense of fear around, oh, maybe I... Well, and judgment, and judgment, right? So it's squashing of curiosity and also the judgment, like, well, people might think I'm silly or stupid for asking this question, or, you know, this, my son will just hear music and just break into dance. he probably won't do that his whole life, you know, because he's going to feel self-conscious at a certain point. And the sense of, with good classroom stuff, with worrying about, am I going to get a good grade,

am I going to do well on the test, and there's so much pressure and there's so much stress? And I'm like, it's six, it's seventh, it's eighth grade. Like, this is when you're learning how to, you can't, no one's expecting you to do it perfectly. This is what life is for right now is learning how. how to make mistakes and be okay with it and forgive yourself and forgive other people. And like, this is what we should be learning, but this standard of perfection that they're always trying to hit. But that's also, I mean, kids are sponges and they reflect everything we do.

So they'll see, I mean, once they get out of the home and they see other adults doing that too, but they just want to mimic everything, right? So if they see us judging things and if they see us, you know, second guessing our behavior, they're going to do the exact same thing. Yeah. My son is like the most resilient human I have ever seen in my entire life. And I would love to take credit for it, but I can't. It's like kids are naturally resilient, you know? Yeah.

Like, oh, I messed up on this. That's okay. I can still do this. And he'll turn it into something else, his little drawing or whatever it is. Like, may we all have that outlook on our own lives, you know? Yeah. And we're seeing it in Jamie in this episode too. Oh, wait a circle back.

Well done. dancing back, but isn't it? It was so heartbreaking, though, because, so he walks out when Haley's sort of just despondent by the pool and he says, Mama, I made my own breakfast and cleaned everything up. And I don't even think Haley makes eye contact with him. She just says, what do you want, a gold star? And it was so sad on two fronts. One, that obviously, you know, that he's just being admonished, you know, and discarded.

It's so sad. But it's also sad because at that young of an age, I don't know where the line is between caring about someone and feeling responsible for someone else's feelings because a child should never feel responsible for their parents' feelings. Like it is not my kid's job to regulate my mood and my feelings. My child is not responsible for my happiness. And so there was a, so I think just because I also had that in me,

I watched it and I was like, I love that you love your mom, but I also, it's a bummer that you're eight. And you are trying to fix her happiness. Yeah. That's a weight a child should never carry, you know? I think it's such a natural inclination that, and that has to be taught. Because empathy is, I mean, that's what grows in us as we got older.

So I think it's beautiful that he was feeling that way. But that would have been the moment if Haley was in her right mind to say, hey, bud, You don't have to do things to make me feel better. And I hope you know that, you know, because the instinct for him to do that, it's like, I care about my mom. What do I think would make her happy? It's the same thing I do for my friends. Like, if my friends having a bad day, I'm like, what would make her happy?

Like, I'm going to send her a little juice delivery. Maybe I'll just pick her up and take her to, take her shopping or whatever. Like, you know, it's those little things. Yeah. But there is a line, and those are the teachable moments. And it was heartbreaking that Haley wasn't able to. Acknowledge that in that moment and actually kind of go the opposite direction. Oof.

Yes. And you're right. Because kids, they're just, they sort of repeat the behavior they've been modeled. And obviously, Nathan and Haley are a good couple. They're in tune with each other. And so, yeah, you're right. That's probably just what it was, was him doing what he has seen happen in the household, in the family. But, but yeah, that she shut it down.

Because you're right, it would have been a perfect teachable moment. Yeah, like, it's okay to do things to, but just as long as you're not doing it so that I'll be happy. Like that's, that's, and that's the moment. But yeah, she just couldn't. And I was, I was thinking, I was like, oh, that hit me so hard. And thinking about what frame of mind would Haley be in? Like, where did I go to justify that? And I think it was, I think it was the idea that it's like, you're, why is everyone expecting?

Like, I can see it from where Haley's brain was in that. moment, the idea that you're supposed to clean your room. Like, why are you coming to me for accolades for doing your chore? Like, just do what you're supposed to do. I mean, I'm not justifying her answer. I think it was appalling, but also appropriate for the character in the moment and good for character flaws. Well, sometimes as a mom, though, you feel like everyone expect something from you. Yeah. And it could also be that. It's like, yeah. Great. You're supposed to do that. What do you want? What do you want for me? Yeah. The exhaustion. Yeah. Yeah, I think maybe I relate to that. Like, I feel that in life sometimes. Do you guys ever feel

that? You can tell somebody's just really trying to gain your approval. It's like, what do you want for me? Yes. And when you're emotionally tapped out, all you want is to have people not need stuff from you. Yeah. So even if they come to you reporting back something favorable, when you know they are also looking for a response, that in itself. can be just tiring and frustrating. Yeah, it's like, oh, so you did the dishes so that you could get me to congratulate you for doing the dishes.

So you still need something for me. It wasn't just you doing something to make me happy or to, like, make my life easier. You're looking for something in it, which is an adult relationship issue, not a parent-child relationship issue. God, people are such jerks.

What a bunch of jerks we are. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherlandis, who with Brother Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history.

On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. you get your podcasts speaking of jerks i loved the way that both nathan though and jamie really tried to rally around haley

and to the to the point where when they are in traffic nathan and haley by the way i had forgotten that nathan had bought the red porch of the woman in that episode Red Porsche. So when you, when Haley takes off. In all of Tree Hill. True. Yes.

But when you, the episode prior, I think, at your music video, when you got in the red portion took off, I thought, oh my gosh,

she got in the like prop car and peeled out. I didn't realize it was your own car that makes a lot more sense. But when you, you guys are in traffic and you,

Hayley just randomly gets out of the car. And Nathan doesn't even think twice. He's like, okay, this seems like the responsible thing to do, two-lane road. I'm just going to leave my Porsche right in the middle of it. It's so good. It's such a great husband, like, hero moment move. That's it. And he didn't even go like, I'm leaving my car. You know, like, he didn't burden her. He was like, cool, this is what we're doing and I'm here for it. I think he said, you're right. It's a, it's a nice safer walk. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Good, good idea. Let's stretch those legs.

They have an exchange later in the episode where I think Nathan says to Jamie, something to the effect of, you know, mom is our everything. And right now we need to be the everything for mom or something to that effect. And it was very, very sweet. So the whole time it's, I just feel like everyone is seen. And especially Haley, because that's who the kind of the focus is on right now. But it was nice to see like an attentive loving partner. He's not forcing it.

He's giving it space. He's just being there for her. A son who's emotionally attuned enough to go, my mom's, my mom's a court low. I'm going to see if I can help out. Yeah. You know, and then Quinn rallies around. Brooke comes by the house. It was really nice to see people rally around someone that they loved going through a really

difficult season. Actually, in consideration of the Nathan storyline arc since season one, it's really beautiful to see the level of maturity that. he's reached. Because younger Nathan, even earlier in their marriage, when, when things got hard, Nathan freaked out. He didn't know what to do. He would act out. He would go, like, that's how he got himself, ended up in a wheelchair. That's how, and then, the whole thing with the, um, him not being able to go to Duke because of the cheating. Like, uh, there was, there were so many moments throughout this, the history of the show where Nathan freaks out and can't handle it and makes bad decisions when

things are bad. So I especially really loved seeing him step up to the plate and made me happy to see his level of maturity. People grow. Oh, he grew up. Yeah. What's the other, what's next? We got Clay and Katie. We got Brooke and Julian. We have Josh and Alex. We have Alexander and Victoria. Let's do Josh and Alex because I feel like that one we can wrap up pretty quickly. But I,

I, there was, so I love the dynamic of the scene where they're about to go on the talk show. And it's, it's that perfect thing where we get to see that public perception is so often not an indication of reality.

And in this case, it's the happy couple that is quietly under their breath, absolutely roasting each other, just vitriol. What was interesting, though, was that I did not feel like there was an inequality to the severity of their burns.

Oh, yeah. Josh makes a horrible comment to her, and her retort is, you have bad breath. And I thought, those two are not in the same league. Not okay. And then my other comment was, they are already promoting a movie that has not even been color-timed, finished editing. It didn't even get into the festival yet.

It's conceivably like six months away from being locked, and they are on a talk show promoting it. Those publicists are working. Aren't they also doing damage control from the other movie that they made? Yes, they are. It's just funny that the host is like, these lovebirds have a movie coming out, and they also have a movie already out and it's like gross i don't know when people promoted a movie that they wrapped four days prior but my god i did you guys also talk about last week the the moment where alex tells julian i released the tape because i wanted you to know that i support you and i

did this come up please tell me you guys addressed this gosh yes i had a huge we both we both went in on this okay okay i'm glad i'll listen to it i haven't heard it yet i don't want to rehash everything for people who've already listened but yeah it was terribly misguided there was a lot of Alex falling on the sword that just didn't make sense and a lot of downplaying of what happened to Alex in that tape that got was was treated lighthearted as if it wasn't a big deal so yeah we spent a good amount of time okay talking about how that that didn't quite sit right yeah so now we're still dealing with the aftermath of that in a sort of tongue and cheek,

ha, ha, ha, well, let's make the best of it kind of way. But I do enjoy watching the two of them. I mean, it's really, it's really fun to see them hate, see any couple that has chemistry, watching them hate each other and then play like they love each other. It's kind of a fun device. Also, to your point about how it was the way it's just sort of, the whole tape thing got like laughed at and downplayed,

There's a scene in the episode where it's after the talk show appearance, Alex goes to trick. Chase, our favorite bartender, apparently the only bartender outside of grabs and all of Tree Hill. But that's great. I'll take all the Stephen Clitty I can get. But it's like, can we get him in a scene outside of the bar soon? But anyways, he's there and he's sulking because we find out Mia broke up with him over text message, bummer. And Alex is sulking. And she says, you know, I'm having a bad day.

You know, he's like, you're in a relationship. What do you have to complain about? And he's like, the talk show's currently on. And she's like, it's fake. It's all because of the sex tape. And Chase doesn't even look up at her and goes. Yeah, I saw it. Yeah, seeing it.

You're prettier in person. Dude, what? First of all, Chase has been a sensitive guy. He showed a lot of heart up to this point. And I just thought that was the most inappropriate, dismissive comment. How you could casually say, no, yeah, I watched the. sex tape you're in and it wasn't good. It's like I had to pause it and rewind it because I thought for sure I misheard what he said. Nope, with the subtitles on. That's what he said.

With the subtitles on. What is that? I mean, this is the stuff that frustrated me behind the scenes on our show is when they started giving lines of dialogue like that. Our boss would start giving lines of dialogue like that to actors who were not series regular. and who didn't really have the ability to say, you know what, this doesn't feel right. Like this, not only does this not connect with my character, but it's degrading. And like, I don't think that's what we're trying to do on this show. Is there something else I can say? Is there another way we could phrase this?

Those actors weren't in a position to speak up and say anything like that because there was this looming threat of like, oh, if you say anything other than exactly what's on the page or even have a question about it, like, we'll just replace you. We don't need you on this show. We'll bring in another person to fill in our huge cast. May I say as a guest star, not necessarily on this show, but I have been lucky enough to be a guest star on a lot of other shows. You're just sitting at the table for the day. You know, it's not your class.

You know, you're just, it's somebody else's house and you just kind of do what you're told. And I know I personally, especially at that point in my career, wouldn't have felt comfortable if I had had the opportunity to, you know, to have dialogue that felt dismissive or unkind or sexist or bigoted or, you know, whatever, you know, bill in the blank. I wouldn't have felt comfortable just because maybe that is the tone of the show. And I just don't understand. Maybe that is where they want to go. And for the reason that you just said, also, you know, the retribution personally that you fear you might face. But there were definitely times when I was a guest on a show and I'd be like, well, not what I would say personally, but it's their show. Yeah.

Just show up, stay my lines, stand on my mark. I find that so unfortunate, though, because the nature of acting is exploration and play. and there should be a space for everyone to come to the table with their own ideas rather than just showing up and sitting there and saying the lines. And I understand the pace of TV that we don't have a lot of time to sit and explore everyone's thoughts and ideas, but also, like, you should have the phone number of the person who is in charge, the director or the producer, whoever, and, hey, I'm just thinking about this. There should be a space of, I mean, an attitude of creativity and collaboration on every set.

I think it would be so much more healthy and you'd probably get better performances from everyone across the board on any show. And if the answer is no, the answer is no. But to not be able to ask a question, to not be able to raise the idea of, could this go a different way? Like, I'm wondering about this. I'm wondering about that. I've been a guest star too.

I know how that feels. It's like, oh, it's uncomfortable. but I think people should feel like they can do that because the work turns out better when you do. But it's usually a power trip, you know, so I think it's hard to find that. It's so hard to do when you're the guest star because like Amanda said,

you are a visitor at the dinner party. You're a guest. You don't live there. And it's also, it's kind of not barring something like wildly egregious, you know, it's not really the response. It's not fair for the responsibility to be on the guest star because you don't know what's been happening in all the episodes prior that haven't aired.

You don't know if there's been a tonal shift lately. So it's hard for you to be the one sort of deciding whether it's too far or not. Like that's the case when, you know, the onset producer in an ideal world who has a firm grasp on the tone and the stories goes, yeah, this one's, like, as the guest are you're kind of like,

the best question you can ask is, this seems a little harsh. Yeah. You know, and hope the director, who's also just a guest star, you know, goes, yeah, here's why. You know, but it's like, it's TV when you're making, it's different on when you do like a movie, right? It gets collaborative with the right crew. Yeah. Because it's a short sprint.

When you're doing 24 episodes a year, it very quickly turns into a factory. Yeah. Directors are just trying to make a day. People are just trying to do it. And so it's not an environment at all that's conducive to going, can we circle up and talk about this, you know? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. But Stephen Colletti was, and maybe that's true for, you're popping in for one episode.

Like, I get that. But Stephen was around. I mean, he was a staple on the show. He wasn't a series regular, but he was technically a guest star recurring, but also still in this position where I don't think there was a culture on our show of collaboration, especially unless you were a series regular. and then you could, you know, you had the space to push back. So I hope, anyway, I'm just saying, I hope that that culture of collaboration and creativity is something that there are producers out there who are looking for and trying to create in their environments.

And I bet that's why lines like this slipped through the cracks because it isn't in keeping with Chase's character. And I don't know why. But, you know, this is the only thing I could come up with with why Stephen wouldn't have changed it. Yeah. Who knows? Maybe he did change it and that's just not the take they used.

Oh, that's true too. Yeah, you know what? That often happens. Just, yeah, try it your way. Just let's do one for you. Let's do one is scripted and then we can, let's go with what you have. Yeah. They don't even roll on the second table.

It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her. story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native

Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. let's get to some of the real fun juicy stuff involving yourself and shul i i had this thought so when clay sees the grape juice in the fridge i because this is one of the things i vaguely remember because at first i thought why is why is clay looking at the grape juice like it's a childhood bully and then i remembered and i thought listen and then there's the next

scene where he comes home and Katie's doing dishes. No one wants a stalker, obviously. Yeah, horrendous. But hear me out, a stalker who makes your favorite drink so it's ready for you chilling in the fridge when you come home and does your dishes, you know. It's not all bad. That storm cloud houses silver lining on it. Yeah.

Thoughts. I'm not arguing that. I wonder. for a minute if Clay was going to buy it. Only a little. Like, you were so convincing, Amanda. You're very kind. I did wonder if Clay was going to be like, am I crazy? Well, there's the mislead at the very end, not to jump ahead, when we as an audience are supposed to think that he did buy it, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's right. It's my wife. You know, and so there is that, that at the very end. But in that moment, yeah, I can see if you come home.

a little unsettling the the door isn't broken somehow master lockbicker but um in there doing the dishes and like frying up eggs or you know whatever at not not the worst thing to come home to yeah she didn't make a mess she tidied up you pay people to do that yeah he's a bit ungrateful is what i'm saying i mean shouldn't have a stalker but he could show a little gratitude you know we i had this conversation with Sophia last week where it's this really funny thing that our show does but also I think a lot of shows and movies do where there is this weird thing that happens when a character goes off the deep end they not only go a bit cracker jacks but they also simultaneously become an expert lock pick lock picker and cat burglar where it's like with your crazy is going to come some incredible

sleuthing and lockpicking. Because all of a sudden, Katie is scaling second story balconies. She is expertly getting into the house undetected. She's getting past an alarm system, the art gallery. It's like, I don't know how a tennis player is suddenly new, but I just like that we all make this leap in logic where it's like, well, guys, she's gone cuckoo for Cocoopuff, so clearly she can pick a lock and hack an alarm system. I appreciate that you're seeing it so one-sidedly.

you're not her first victim I was what I'm going to say I think she's done this before Clay was her first and only rude sorry you're not her first it's a fair point it hurts

Locked pick Clay Wow Oof hard truths being shared on this episode of drama queens you played it great though I mean there's some really awesome

scenes in 720 between you and Quinn at the art gallery where you're just there I think there's there is a an inexperienced actor's choice when they're told to play a character who's unhinged to do more and to be bigger and I think there's a power in doing less and that's what you did in the art gallery with Quinn especially when you kind of corner her in the back room There is a real ominous feeling throughout that whole scene where she's sort of the trapped prey and you're the predator. And your stillness works so well for creating such an uncomfortable tense feeling. Oh, well, thank you. I think that people who are more contained are way less scarier than those who, like somebody, like a fighter, you know, like a physical fighter who can channel and focus.

all of their energy, so their outbursts are like a viper. You know, you don't expect it as opposed to somebody who shows their cards, you know, and is flailing all around. It's way scarier to have the rage simmering, you know, and where it's not on display and you don't know what the next move is going to be. Yeah, there's an unpredictability. Mm-hmm. That's the better word for it.

So let's continue then with it because it does not disappoint. The crazy train stays on the rails, picks up some speed. Clay gets a phone call. And I was very confused as to why that phone call wouldn't be, because it's from the police obviously saying this gal says she knows you, she's hanging from a bridge, which, by the way, a bridge that is definitely not high enough to do bodily harm. At worst, you would sprain an ankle or get a really bad belly flop.

Yeah. But I love that all of the police in Tree Hill have shown up for this potential sprained ankle. I don't. Also, by the way, that was way lower than the bridge that you and I jumped off. Yes. Wait, it wasn't the same bridge? No. Oh. No, because the one we jumped off was a proper bridge. This was a pier.

Oh, right. Why didn't they send you guys to the same bridge? Wouldn't that have been kind of the point with Katie? Yeah, but she would have survived that one, I guess. Maybe the thought is that she'd time it with the tide so that it would be ill. It would wash her away. No, yeah. But if that's the case, don't show the whole pier in a master shot.

Never show us that just and let us fill in the blank and we will paint a much higher pier in our imagination. So the fact that you would be hanging on the outside of it and anyone would be like, ma'am, you could hurt yourself falling 15 feet into water. Are you okay? You know, like it was so confusing. But the fact that Clay gets a call from all of the police department saying,

you got to come quick, this gal is 20 feet up in the air above water. And he doesn't go, no she's my stalker absolutely not yeah good luck guys bye he wants the notebook that okay see that's fair and i also think it's one of those moments of just getting to see clay's character and that he sees beyond the unhinged behavior and he sees a person underneath and he's choosing to show up for that person which i thought very compassionate right so he plays along he does the ruse uh katie is supposedly going to get help but when they yeah but when they then they cut to the master and you can see that the pier is like at best 20 feet above water.

I was like, and if it is low tide, then why not have her go on the ledge of a building? You know, it was just, it was odd. It was pretty. It was pretty. There was something sort of sadly romantic about the whole thing. I really, it broke my heart. I mean, when you let her go into the arms of the police and you're like, it's going to be okay. They're going to help you.

I guess I felt maybe maybe he felt the the sting of having to send Sarah like he knows it's not Sarah but she looks so much like him is there a part of you that felt like you had to or that Clay had to wrestle with that or were you in full

like she's fully crazy the whole thing and I was just putting my own interpretation on that I think it was Clay was still grieving and I think there is one form of grieving which is just avoid So I don't know. I just remember thinking that it's not easy for Clay because he's not actively facing it every day.

Like he's sort of doing a slow grieving, but having to play this game with Katie is really bringing it right up to the forefront and having to say things aloud like Sarah died. She's not here anymore. It's like he is having to echo the painful truths that he may not wanting to be facing every day. So Katie is actually facilitating his recovery. Keish, I'm telling you, did I not say five minutes ago? He should have a little more gratitude for Katie. Yeah. She does the dishes and she helps with mental health on your side.

Not so much hers. Not for her. She's selfless. She's a really good friend if we think about it. She makes his favorite juice. She cleans his house. She helps his emotional and mental well-being. And how does he say thank you?

he gets her locked up. Yeah. Clay is the villain in this story. I think we're finding out, guys. Clearly. Yeah, this is a plot twist we're just discovering now. I can't wait for the spinoff of Katie and her roommate just doing whatever they do. The things we did for those ungrateful men.

It's going to be good. Yeah. Speaking of good, I loved Alexander and Victoria storyline the whole episode. Yeah, that was fun. They have been so fun to watch. I was worried that when Brooke called out Victoria last episode and she goes, oh, so you're not ashamed of this? I thought that was going to be the end of it.

I thought as soon as the cat's out of the bag, the fun's gone. Yeah. But the fact that she's into him and he's into her. And now they're talking about doing clothes or excuse me, close four bros in New York together. I love it. Yeah, it's really sweet. The only thing I didn't like about it was that it makes me sad because does that mean we're going to be seeing less Victoria in future episodes?

I know. I think so. I think it does. I know she's so good. Oh, man, I remember doing that scene with her, too, the scene. Oh, that was a beautiful scene. In close of her bros, where she just sits me down and talks about my mother and what my mother would want for me as Haley. I remember shooting that scene with Daphne. Daphne and I were getting close at the time. Like, we were really spending a lot more time together off, behind the scenes as well, having dinners and just. running errands together and she was becoming a mentor for me and uh which i desperately needed at that time in my life um and so that scene holds a special place in my heart because i remember it feeling very similar to a lot of conversations that she and i were having offline you know or off off screen um she's such a wonderful woman like really deep soulful brilliant woman and i loved seeing that come out in Victoria, finally, too,

who we never expected that from. I also really appreciated that your character didn't respond. That it wasn't just a sudden light bulb moment where she, writers felt compelled to make you say, okay, I get it now. Because her words were so sage that another script could have the light bulb moment, you get it. and then be just fine, you know, and that's not what it was.

You processed it, but you were still angry at the world, you know. Yeah. Yeah, it still gives us somewhere to go. The softer side of Victoria has been so much fun to watch Come to Light. And the way she has shown up for Brooke throughout the season, and then Millie, and now Haley. And it was the perfect thing because kind of like Amanda saying, there was such a, a finesse to the scene in that it wasn't forced. Victoria started by being like,

you want to snap at each other? I can play this game. I'm better than you, in fact. Sit down. And then when she sits down, she's like, okay, now I'm going to hit you with some mom truths and some love, you know, and it's not a hard sell. She's just telling her what it is.

And then she's not looking for response. And to the scene's credit, she doesn't get it. Yeah. There's nothing forced. Also, before anyone comes from me in the comments, I apologize. It was not grape juice.

Clay's favorite drink. Apparently it was grape Kool-Aid. Because I surely would have been roasted for that. So noted, fixed. But also seeing Brooke respond to Victoria, just emotionally, being able to watch her mom be a mom, like show up as

a mom for somebody else. It looked like it was really healing for Brooke's heart to know that her mom has that capacity and, you know, to see the arc of their relationship over the course of the last few seasons. That she also has grown and arrived in this place where she's much more open-hearted and willing to be vulnerable.

I really loved that. And I think Brooke is getting so much right now. It's really nice to see after her struggling through so many things that finally all the pieces are starting to fall into place relationally for her. That does my heart good as a fan to watch. It's really cool. Huge. We talked about this last episode that was saying it's so nice to get a whole episode of

brilliant just being happy. Yes. And just delighting in each other and having cute date nights and fun banter and being back. Because I'm with you. I'm a big fan of the two of them. And they have just been through it. We got an episode without Sophia crying. I was like,

it's about time. I know. And even though, like, he's made some bad decisions and she's had some misunderstandings and reacted poorly to things without asking the right questions or whatever, like, it's just normal relationship stuff. But I really loved being able to see them.

work through those things instead of what teenagers do, which is what we saw for so many years on the show, which is just blow up at each other and then you break up or you disappear. Like, they're really having a very mature adult relationship and not reducing each other down to their worst qualities and making space for, I accept you for who you are. This part of you really bothers me, but I can manage it and we're going to grow. We'll grow through it. It's just so adult. I love it.

Yeah. And the way she is showing up for him as a teen. teammate when he's waiting to hear about the festival and she's just kind of calming and cheering him on, you know. Well, she's also already logged the name of the festival into her phone. I know. So sweet. She's willing it. She is. It may look different, but Native culture is very. very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that

culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Did we talk about India and Grubbs yet or Miranda and Grubbs yet?

Let's talk about Miranda and Grubbs. That was not the travel outfit I would have chosen for an international fight. That was the first thing that went through my head. Me too. I was like, well. That's perfect. No, but that was literally the first thing I thought. I was like, that was comfortable for like an international.

That's a long time to be in. I think Miranda strikes me as the kind of person who also travels with folded, like carefully folded cashmere pajama sweatsuit in a silk bag that probably is in her carry-on. So she'll dip into the first class, Lou, and change. Oh, look at you using the lingo. I mean, I feel like this is her vibe. Man, I like the device of this as a way to get. Grubbs and Mia together.

I don't know if they have a romance or if they just start making music together, I can't remember. But I do like this piece of the puzzle. But it's kind of sad. It's like, does this also mean India's leaving? Yeah, I mean, I hope not. But is she doing, is she pulling a Harry in the Henderson's? Is she doing the thing with him where at the end when she's like, because I don't want. you to come because he's like you didn't ask if i'd go and she screams at him really harshly yeah that

was intense is she doing the harry and the henderson's thing where she really likes him but she just knows what's better for him i don't know what the harry and the henderson thing is well they send him back out into the wilderness yeah the ending scene is not the reference i would have chosen casablanca like i feel like we've got a lot of harry and the henderson because a i've already used it on the show so people have probably googled it or they already know it okay okay And two, I have so little original material. They went to their local blockbuster and got their VHS and watched it. That's right.

It's the end of it where John Lithgow takes the Bigfoot out to the woods because he realized he can't have the life he's supposed to have living a domestic life with his family. And Bigfoot's like, what are we doing here? And he's like, get out of here. Bigfoot, of course, is like, no, we're best friends. And he's like, get. And then he goes, he hits him. And he goes, don't you see? We don't watch you here.

Go. Oh, and Bigfoot, of course, it's like, what the hell just happened? Fine. And he walks off in nature and then Lithgow turns to camera and he has a tear rolling down his cheek and he's like, goodbye, my friend. I don't ever want to watch this show. That sounds terrible. Oh, you want to hear terrible news? I just found out this is India's last episode.

What? Come on. This is how we send her off being rude to sweet, sweet grubs? Boo. That is. I bet she had something else she was going off to do. I'm sure she did. Yes.

She's a very busy working actor, and so I'm sure that that was the device, the exit. Yeah, had to have been. Yeah. Well, I think it was that she was just pushing him away. Like, I don't want you to go. I don't, I, I, she knew that he'd be better off there. He's not going to, he's not going to build a whole new, start a whole new life, a whole new career in England. And, yeah.

She was, she was John Liff, though. He was Harry. She was the Harrison. You have such dated references, Amanda. Couldn't you have used like Casablanca or something younger and hipper? Gosh, okay, boomer. Casa Blanca younger and hipper. I know.

I know. That's the magic of your comedy. But getting Mia and Grubbs into the same room, having that intro happen. Also, a little, I was like watching her walk in when she just broke up with Chase on, text message and she still passes through the bar like hey sorry i broke up with you but i do need to get into the the office like can i can i just go into the recording studio real quick sorry and also wasn't the whole text like hey this isn't fair to either of us i'm not around like i'm busy away doing stuff and then she shows up and she's like gotcha i actually just don't want to

be your girlfriend yeah it was odd because she when they go outside to talk basically just says, this is better for you. Yeah. Why, you're here now. Yeah. Also, the text message on his phone was clearly written on the phone. On the phone. On his phone, because it had a cursor at the end of it.

I was like, are we not, are we supposed to believe that this is the message that Mia sent? Because it's clearly something that he just wrote on his phone. He's just writing it over and over again as self-punishment. It did lead to a wonderful scene though with Julian Alex and Chase where they all come in pretty salty and just sort of throwing like barbs at each other and I'm the saltiest no I'm in more pain no I was the pity pool was crowded that day And I also love, though, how it turned into Alex giving Julian a reality check, sort of a perspective shift and helping him see that, like, no, man, like, this is a,

this is a monster win. And it felt very genuine and believable. Yeah, I liked it too. And then did we find out that he got in at the end? He got a call, didn't he? He said hello, and then that was it, right? Or did I miss something? I think that's all I remember is that.

she goes well look who it is or something like that and he answers it yeah but i'm assuming he gets in because isn't that why we went to park city yes it is that's right oh yeah okay that's coming up that was spoiler alert i guess he got in spoiler alert yeah didn't you all go shoot there you all went on location didn't you we did yeah i had a we had i remember i was i was disappointed that i wasn't a more pivotal part in that she follows she breaks out out of the psychiatric hospital and follows him all the way. Yeah. No, I remember you all getting ready to go.

Oh. Bummer for me. I'm excited to see where the Katie stuff goes. I remember some of the Broadstroke Endgame things, but I don't remember the road to getting there. I don't either. This has actually been fun for me to watch because I definitely did not watch these episodes. And especially with everything going on in my personal life and then with Katie, I mean, sorry, not Katie, with Lydia dying and Haley's whole storyline revolving around depression, I just was not, I wasn't aware of really anyone else's storyline. I would get the scripts at this point and read my scenes and make sure that I wasn't, you know, whatever I was connected to, I understood, but everything else I just, I didn't have the capacity for. During that time, you didn't read the scripts holistically?

No, I was going through such a, I don't know if you, no, I wrote a book about being an occult. A New York Times bestselling book about being an occult. Thank you, darling. Jennifer Vampires, excuse me, Kay. I was just about to say, can me plug it, please? Thank you. Yeah. So, yes, that was at the sort of pivotal time in my life when everything was really at its absolute worst. and I was just surviving and on autopilot.

So I would get the scripts and just didn't, I didn't have the capacity. I didn't know how to invest myself in other people's storylines. I just had to like get my scripts, learn my lines, and do enough to be professional to show up and still keep my job. And then I would get offset and go deal with my personal life. And so this has been really fun to watch back. I didn't even know about this scavenger hunt storyline with Chantelle and Jackson. I know very little about what's coming up with Katie and Clay, except for this big fight in the rain because Chantel and I were friends and talking.

And so she'd come have a coffee with me after work and be still in her bruises and cuts and scrapes. And from whatever you guys were doing together. So I know something crazy happens. We did. That was one of the first things. means one of the first, like, stunt, people do stunts, actors do more of the action. And that was one of the first times I ever did, like, an action fight with another actor. Wow.

That's fun. Amanda, when you do conventions or when you're out in public and you get approached by a fan, how much, like, what's the ratio of they talk about Katie versus they talk about Sarah? Who, if you had to say, who's the fan favorite? Is it Katie or is it Sarah? Katie's not a fan favorite, but she's a fan fascination. Mm. You know, I, people don't like Katie, but they like to not like her, you know. Yeah.

And people were already invested in Clay's storyline at that point, so they are sort of mad. I think also, I don't know whether you've talked about this a lot, but I have, been on a few shows as the mean woman or... Oh, yeah, you did pretty little liars after this. Did pretty little liars, but on other shows, my character has taken a turn. And women really love to pile on the judgment and the anger to other women. And I've had a lot of confusion. between Haiti and Amanda.

And at first it was... It's so strange. Hurtful. And then it was actually quite complimentary. Yes. I'm that good. Well, it was more just like... During that time, it was, you know,

Twitter was just starting to get big. And I started a Twitter account kind of just around the time that I was doing around these episodes. And somebody started to say some really unkind things to me on Twitter. On Twitter? No. On Twitter. And at first, you know, I would vacillate between like either not responding or just doing like a little, you know, short response or whatever.

I never like, I don't remember really engaging. But, and they would have to, I think they would get shut down because they would change their address quite a bit, their handle. And then it was like, I just had this shift, this mental shift where I was like, thank you. Thank you so much for being confused because that means I did my job and I appreciate you. Yes. And once I kind of said that and I said, if you ever want to, I think I do remember saying, if you ever want to get together to discuss it, once I called out this person and said that I would engage face to face, it was like game over, you know, because nobody wanted to.

step out behind the safety of the computer screen, but it was like people, people did love to hate Katie, you know, and that's just one example. Yeah, the fear of the unknown. Maybe that person just needed a little touch of lithium, just like old Katie cans. Yeah, just little lithium in the Kool-Aid. That's it. Yeah, it is. People are, people are afraid of things that they don't understand. Speaking of fear of things that we don't understand, we have a listener question. Tom, Connie is asking, when you were younger, what is an irrational fear that you had that you thought was an extreme issue? I love this question. This is such a good question, Tommy. Absolutely the Bermuda Triangle, I thought, was a really big problem that we had to solve.

We definitely talked about it a lot. Oh, yeah. But there was the other thing, too, like, remember the tags on the furniture that say do not remove? I was absolutely terrified. I remember one day I, I, I, um, ripped the tag off. Like, I played on my furniture all the time. I was always climbing around on things. And I remember we spilled something on the cushion and had to flip it around. And I ripped the tag off. And I look at the tag and it says, like, it's like FBI or some kind of. Did people, like, descend from work, like, into your living room?

For like a week, I was like, oh, my God, is someone going to come arrest me for taking the tag off of this couch? I definitely thought that there was something under my bed. at night. Oh. Certain of it. I spent way too much time worried about quicksand than was probably necessary. The Princess Bride ruined us. I don't know why as a kid growing up in suburban Southern California, quicksand was at the forefront of my fear list.

But yeah, things like quicksand, acid rain. Oh, acid rain. Acid rain. I might drown if I don't wait 30 minutes after I eat before I swim. Oh, yeah. into mud about this high once on a hike when I was really young. So, listen. Quicksand is an issue.

It's a serious problem. Not to re-ignite any dormant concerns there, Rob, but. Listen, if there had been a political candidate in 1984 whose platform was, I am going to fix the quicksand issue, they would have had my vote so fast. Your four-year-old vote? Yep. That's so good Oh, Amanda Shul

You are a delight Always Friends, I'm so happy That I got to be here this morning with you What a lovely way to spend the sunrise Thank you for being here with me Well, before we say goodbye Because I just wanted to get in some

Preliminary compliments Before I really hit you with the whole barrage of them afterwards We do spin a wheel And we do an honorable mention So we're not quite done yet Let's spin that wheel. So the wheel is most likely to, Amanda. So it's like in your high school yearbook, you've got most likely to become president,

most likely to, you know, join a tennis club or whatever. Anyway, okay, here's what we have. Most likely to get locked out of their own house. So you have to pick a cast member and then a character on the show. Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to say this. Here's the person who is least likely to ever get locked out of their house. It's clearly Katie. Because she can pick locks like a pro.

Duh. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Most likely to get locked out of their house. I mean, I've been locked out of my house multiple times. So it might be me in real life. I'm going to say you, Joy, because you sort of have a tendency to just, like, leave things behind occasionally.

Yeah, I'm really absent-minded. I'm such an absent-minded professor. Well, I would say your character, you know, around this time is absent-minded. So, yeah. Yeah. Haley right now might be. Yeah. But Haley in regular life, definitely not.

Haley's the one who's got copies of everyone else's keys, and they come to her when they lock themselves out of their house. Are we discussing this particular point or in general? Could be any time. Oh, okay. Oh, okay, okay. Listen, if it's at this particular point, I agree it's Haley. If it's in general, I'm going to also throw Clay's hat in the ring,

because as we will see, he's pretty good at forgetting things. Yep, yep. He's a little spacey right now, too. He's trying to stressed out. do you have an honorable mention it's sort of just one thing that stood out to from the episode you want to shout out um an honorable mention uh well can we just discuss all the women's skin for just a split second yes because i was just fast the skin care routine was on point your like the lady's skin skin was just a dewy kiss of perfection And I just want to honorably mention your skin, Sophia. Well, listen, everyone's skin was just absolutely beautiful.

Skin was great. I wish we had somebody to help us with our eyebrows because that was rough. My eyebrows were real rough for me back then. Eyebrows didn't stand out to me. Your skin stood out to me. I'm so glad. Thank you. Yeah.

Honorable mention for me will be Paul Thiel until he's done. I just love watching him. I also remember, I think he was 20 when we did this. So all of us were older than him. So he came in at 20 years old playing this, you know, hot shot movie star, working with Jana. And this might have been his first on-camera role, too. I have to double check that. But he just was so great and so committed and had really great instincts.

And I love watching him and always well. so yeah that's a great one my honorable mention is aunt Quinn who clearly wins aunt of the year this year with her goonies inspired treasure hunt with jamie that was awesome agreed so good what do we got next episode joy well the next episode rob is season seven episode 22 almost everything i wish i'd said the last time i saw you that's a very long title that's a mouthful it just certainly is I wonder how the episode will be. Tune in to find out. Thanks, everybody.

And thank you, Amanda, for joining us. It's so good to see you. Thanks for all your contribution today. Oh, I'm so happy to be here with you. Oh, all right. Bye, guys. You're the best, buddy. Bye, everyone.

Bye, friends. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's O-T-H. Or email us at Dramaquins at iHeartRadio.com. See you. next time we're all about that high school drama girl drama girl all about them high school queens we'll take you for a ride and our comic girl cheering for the right team drama queens drama queens

smart girl rough girl fashion but you're tough girl you could sit with us girl drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens It may look different, but Native Culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.