Drama Queens - It’s a Fiasco • EP404

Episode Date: November 28, 2022

As their characters struggle with the situations they’re dealing with on the show... Hilarie, Sophia, and Joy relive what life was like behind the scenes during this time.  It was definitely a tale of two dramas as things were surreal with the highest of highs while simultaneously marred by the lowest of lows. And it’s all explained right here…  Plus, a special guest performed at Tric on this episode… find out who and why this was one of Sophia’s most memorable days on set!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. From prologue projects and Pushkin Industries, this is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens.

We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama, girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama, Queens. Welcome back, everybody. It is season four, episode four. Can't Stop This Thing You Started. I wish we could. That train is rolling, baby. There's a lot that I wanted to

push stop on in this episode. I didn't like it. It was a good episode, but just the subject pattern felt acidic in my throat. It was so uncomfortable that while we were watching it, we were like, wow, they really did a good job because we're all super creeped out. But yeah, maybe it did really make me feel sick. Bethany Rooney was our director in this, and it was her first time, I believe, am I right, that she came to our show. I think she did one last year, too. Had she done one before? I loved her.

She was one of my favorite directors. And, you know, she would always come in. She had a very calm energy and really knew what she wanted, but was also really open to our ideas. So that was nice. But she came in with ideas. It wasn't just somebody coming in expecting the machine to run itself and she's just there to, you know, call out the shots every once in a while. She really had ideas and I think it showed up a lot because there was a lot of stuff that she just had to juggle in this crazy episode. She had really creative shots.

That basketball shot at the very top of the episode where Lucas is like looking through the basketball hoop. And the way it was revealed. Yeah. Yeah, it was super cool. well what this episode that bethany runy directed beautifully is about is deb continues her downward spiral to her addiction rachel continues to chase after nathan while he is still searching for answers about what he saw in the water whitey and karen make a proposition to lucas about returning to basketball the rumor about brook's pregnancy is just spreading like wildfire around the school and derrick starts getting closer to peyton but lucas begins to suspect that his intentions are are not good. And coolest thing that, like, I don't know, ever happened was Lupe Fiasco performed at Tripp. Amazing.

So exciting. It was a lot. Lupe being there is one of my core memories of our show. Like, truly one of the best days I've ever had at work. It was so fun and so cool. We were all so excited. And it was a long day at Trick. And we were all, it was one of those ones that we all showed up, even when we were.

weren't there. We weren't due on set yet because we just wanted to hang out. We wanted to be there when Lubei was performing and then hang out in the green room backstage so we could chit-chat. We were all so fan-girly about it. We really were. And I don't know why I remember this. I remember because I had gotten to work a couple hours earlier than I was needed. And they were loading in his set. You know, they put up that chain-link fence with all the Lupe skateboards on it. You know, it was just the board part, though, without the wheels. And I remember helping, like, unwrapped those skateboards out of the bubble wrap out of the boxes and being like, I can be helpful?

This is really cool. What can I do? Put me to work. Yeah. Like he wasn't there. It was like me and the set deck guys. But I was like, this is so cool. I can't believe it's really coming.

And I don't know why. It's like it's burned into my brain. I just have such imposter syndrome. Like even on TRL at MTV, my assumption was always like no one knows who we are. No one knows like you're going to forget my name. minutes after you leave. And I just had this kind of, like, feeling when he showed up, like, does he even know what our show is? Like, Lupi Siasco knows our show? What are you talking about? Why are you here? Dude, I still have that. You know, like, I just, yeah, my imposter syndrome was so big.

I was just like, who did your manager trick you? Like, what? Yeah. We're not cool. It was a lot of that. Like, how did we get you here? Like an extreme confusion. Well, you made a great point while we were watching, Hillary. You mentioned a writer that we had come in once who was telling us that because she was back in the writer's room in L.A. And that they were really trying to get a lot more male viewers on the show. And so I think maybe that was part of it too, because Lupe was definitely like the coolest. I mean, well, I guess Jack's Mannequin was pretty cool, but still kind of indie.

Like, Lupe was pretty mainstream and like cool. appealed to both sexes more than like a Michelle Branch or maybe even Tyler at that point. Well, we had a lot of singer-songwriter energy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. Yes. So to branch out into more, you know, like, I don't know, you're right. Like mainstream, go to a club, have fun, kind of music.

Like fun music? Maybe that's the word I'm looking for. Well, because it fits with all the other things we were talking about in the episode. like all the stuff with Rachel being naked basically and all the stuff with Nathan on the motorcycle and the way they were cut even the psychoderic stuff the way that was cut it was definitely had

had a bent toward what male audiences at the time were showing up for they were fixated on the male thing and we can talk about it more like as the psychoderic thing evolves but I was specifically pulled aside and told that our male numbers in viewership

skyrocketed when Peyton got her ass kicked by Derek. And so what you'll see, there's a pattern on our show where either violence towards women or super sexualized situations, there's going to be an uptick in that because they were really hot to capture the male audience. And they saw those numbers. Like, they had data that showed them, this is what the boys like. And that was really frightening to me. but I had to be a good, like, sport about it and be like,

oh, I'm so glad I could bring more eyeballs to our show. That feels great. But, yeah, they were trying to get the dudes, for sure. They couldn't do it with basketball, so we'll punch a girl in the face. It's also upsetting, though, to think about what kind of male audience we were cultivating with that. Not the sweet ones. Certainly not. And there's plenty of shows men watch that don't.

revolve around assaulting women and I think it feels extra intense given that you know we had those conversations in season three with the school shooting episode about what we've learned in the last 20 years what we've learned about these groups that groom men and boys toward violence online and that those are the people that are pushing um the rhetoric and the misinformation that literally we find repeated again and again and again in these manifestos of these men who commit violent acts like that. And to think that we had a team of people in charge of us that chose to seek out and try to entertain violent men. That's a really hard pill to swallow. Even all these years later, it's really upsetting. I don't think it was intentional.

No, Joy. I mean, how fucking meta is it? How meta is it that they are clearly vilifying Derek, the creep on the internet, right? While also soliciting the creeps on the internet. Yeah. No, absolutely. I just think it was incredibly careless. I don't know that it was sinister and that there are people sitting in their offices like, you know, how we can really, you know, capture the psychos out there. Right. I think. it was just a carelessness of like, oh, yeah, it's action. It'll be cool. And like, and then it's, it's just, it's just careless. It's a total lack of awareness of what it's actually doing. Right. But it's, it's the kind of lack of awareness you see in, for example, people who can't get pregnant, men, trying to regulate women's literal reproductive systems. Like, it's the same sort of thing where they go, this is going to be really cool. And they don't follow what their actions, cause or mean. So I know they weren't trying to solicit like basement bullies on the internet. But they saw that a lot of young men were drawn to a violent assault of women.

And they went, we should do more of that. Not, uh-oh, hold the phone. How are we going to, okay, wait, if we suddenly have a lot of these young men tuning in, how are we going to talk about how awful that was instead they were like maybe we should do more maybe we should make the girls do maxim and tell them they'll get fired if they don't like that

is that what happened oh yeah okay talk about the maxim shoot oh man oh man guess who wore pants in maxim this guy guys I have kept this pair of white jeans for so long

because I showed up that day and was such a righteous bitch and like such like a brat, like such a baby. And I was like, I'm wearing pants. I'm uncomfortable. Put me in the pants. And so I've saved those white jeans

as like a testament to I'm going to wear pants and maxim. I mean, we tried our hardest. We got like cute vintage one pieces and high-waisted bikinis. And I was like, yeah, I'll wear this like corset top that totally covers my tummy

and then these shorts and it'll look like a 50s pin-up shoot. And then the photo shop they did of that outfit half my ass is gone like literally one of my legs just is half of its size and they did the thing that they love to do to us then where they tried to make our boobs bigger i've never had boobs ever in the corset and shorts shot of me they only like it's like someone started making one of my boobs bigger and then went to lunch and forgot they weren't done so literally i have like one normal size boob and one huge boob and half a butt on one side

Like, you guys, it's the worst. It's the worst. How does this happen? You only need one big boob, really. It was insane. Just one. Just one. So, like, we really did try to make it the best version of it we could.

But yeah, we got told we had to do it. And I, because Brooke had been so sexualized on the show and the whole idea of this like hometown hottie was Rachel's storyline. I was like, look, if the girls want to do it, that's great. I don't. Like, I have gone to battle trying to make Brooke less of this thing that you guys tried to force me into. I don't want to do it.

And I literally got told, if you do not go and shoot this cover with your co-stars, we will guarantee you that you will never be let out for a press day, a movie, an event, any of your charities we will keep you here forever where was your manager joy the leverage they had because i remember getting pulled into the production office you're lawyer and i i sat on a floor while our boss was on the couch as we were given this like very friendly soft pitch that was look, all the other shows have been on the cover of every single magazine and no one

wants you guys. No one wants you. And you finally have someone that wants you and you're really going to turn your nose up at that and, you know, we were on the bubble every year and we were assured that Maxim had just been purchased

by a new parent company and they had British ownership now. So they're classing up the joint and that it was run predominantly by women. And we were like, but what do you mean? They're like, you guys are going to be the start of the rebranding of Maxim. It's going to be so classy.

Like, it was this whole fucking thing. Wow. Because we said no to that for years, for years. But it was very much a no one else wants you. The studio wants to cancel your show. if you don't start to generate some buzz and attract these male numbers, then we're dead. And all your friends are going to lose their jobs.

And it'll be your fault. It's your fault. And I think, you know, what's interesting for me is it's about agency. Like, at that time, I said, no, I don't want to do this. And I was told I had to. And I hear you on the, like, where was your manager? But what's a manager going to do? Well, they said you're working every day in this episode.

Yeah, you're supposed to have, you're not technically on camera on Friday, but that's the only time they can do your wardrobe fitting. Like, they can keep you on the ground if they want to. And it just seems like something that would have happened enough in this industry, that lawyers would know how to handle that. It was pre-texting, really, Joy. Like, how often were we really in contact with our managers back then? It was- I talked to mine, like, once a month.

That's true. It was such a professional. found threat and a threat to like being able honestly even to have the ability to escape for a weekend a place that at this stage like this season I was leaving every chance I got I would come into work and do my job and then I wanted out I wanted to go home I wanted to be with my family I wanted to be with my friends I did not want to be on our set it was not a safe place for me yeah and this was such a threat to safety And I remember, and it's weird because I remember having these conflicting feelings when we did that cover, like looking at You Hill and looking at DeNeil and being like, God, everybody, everybody looks so beautiful.

Girl, I look like I farted in all those pictures. I'm making the most uncomfortable face, humanly possible. We look uncomfortable, but in the room, I remember being like this, like I'm looking at my friends who look stunning and who do look like these 50s pinup girls. And this should be so fun, but it's miserable because we didn't choose it. And it's interesting because many years later, when there was actual, like, when we did Maxim on our show, it was still like college humor, like really gross, all the articles geared toward like just grossness, like frat house humor. And many years later on a different job, the magazine had actually changed hands and had been bought. by one of the big women's magazine umbrellas, I guess maybe again. And I got to art direct to shoot with Maxim with these three incredible photographers who like came in from France, a team that came in from like Tom Ford, like super high-end fashion. We were, we were doing these like video clip,

like short film inspirations for the shoot, sourcing the locations. I was involved in all the things. we were like taking references from the first Beyonce visual album. And it was like the coolest, sexiest, vibeest thing I've ever worked on that like photographs came out of. And it was such a, I had this pang being like, we could have actually done something that made us feel special. But like back then when we were 25, we just felt like bossed around and used. And the glaring difference under, you know, quote unquote, the same banner, I get 15 years apart or whatever. But it really wasn't lost on me when I thought back to this episode.

It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornales, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep tradition.

alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare and, frankly, bullshit.

We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue projects. and Pushkin Industries, this is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yeah, that's right. Lock her up.

Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Also at the shoot, first of all, those pictures that we see that Rachel takes, or the Brooke takes of Rachel in the episode, those are pictures that were up in our writer's office. I went to go visit the writer's office in Los Angeles. Can you imagine? No. They're props from the show. She didn't know. Yeah.

And I remember seeing them being like, what the fuck is this? But then our boss came to the Maxim shoot. And he made a production out of giving me a present in front of Sophia and DeNeil. Because he was trying to put, so it was an iPod that he had loaded with music he thought. was applicable to me and wanted Sophia to see it to put her in her place and he wanted Daniel to see it because he was trying to make her jealous and sick little game oh god I mean like by the way who does that with a pack of like 24 year old we weren't even we were 23 right we were babies sick it's sick on like every level it's so gross that is something you do for

your crush when you're in high school or your girlfriend or boyfriend or boyfriend when you're an adult or, you know, your spouse or your best friend. It's not something you do for an employee who is... Who's naked on set, taking pictures for Maxim. Yeah, taking pictures. Who is what? 15 years, 20 years, you're junior and you are a married adult man. Married adult man.

I just remember how scary and uncomfortable that stuff felt. Like, Hillary, I remember him doing that. to you that day and how sick it made me feel and looking at you because I could see you like collapse a little bit and then I remember trying to catch your eyes but you were like looking at the floor like burning with discomfort but then like I remember you checking to the side to like see are they watching this like I was so embarrassed and I was like trying to catch your eye, but also not make a scene and let you know I saw you and let you know I knew it was him, but we couldn't talk about it because he was in the room. Like, it was all just so awful. Like,

it's awful. Well, because we'd all been pit against each other in different ways. And we had actually had a nice day for all of our discomfort. You know, when you're in the trenches and you're all just like, I guess we're doing this thing. Okay. And we'd actually, like, you me and Danielle had had this kind of like nice day where we would all check in with each other and be like, no, you look good. You look good. I'm here for you. Let me put my hand here. You know, let me, you know, like, I'll hold you. And he came in and just made this very, like, visual move to be divisive. And I was so embarrassed because I, even though it was like a shit day, I was like, oh, well, we're cool. Like, the girls are cool. This is great. And he just, I was so embarrassed. I was so fucking embarrassed.

I just went to my friend Steve's house afterwards, and I was like, can I wash my face here? I just wanted to wash it off. Yeah. You know, we were all really pitted against each other, and this is a great example of that because I never even heard, I think I remember hearing like, oh, the girls are in,

were you guys in New York? Where did you go for them? We were to L.A. It was New York or L.A. It was L.A. But you were off. The girls are off doing their Maxim shoot, and they replaced you with Dineal Joy.

that's what they told you yeah they told me that they didn't come to me because i was too fat and um and i just wasn't like i i wasn't the hot girl i wasn't like a hot girl on the show anymore joy they told us they asked you and you said no okay first of all i don't understand how a person calls the the co-star look i understand we're all like on the body on the spectrum of bodies like we're slender ladies yes wait wait yes i've no i never heard a word i'm not i never heard a word i'm like how they could call the girl who literally has the physically smallest waste of all of us fat i don't understand second of all they said to us because by the way when when i said i don't want to do it i was like but joy's not doing it she said no why does she get to say no and they go

well she said no so you have to say yes and she said no first they told us that you said i absolutely will not do it and maxim said well we can you know it's still it'll still work if it's a group of the girls if it's just the three but any less than three then we don't have the cast so they basically said sorry she said no first so you can't yeah wow they never even asked you they never even asked i just why that's happening and i was like wow i mean i probably wouldn't have done it because at the time I didn't, you know, what Maxim was to me was not something that I felt like I wanted to be a part of, so I would have said no. But they didn't even ask. It was just like the assumption, Joy's not going to do it. And by the way, here's why. So isn't it crazy, though, to realize

that they scapegoated you to tell the three of us we couldn't say no. Exactly. They threw you under the fucking bus. I was like, why does she get to say no and I don't? I don't understand. I was like, How come Joy got first pick? I mean, if they had put me in that position, in the position they put you guys in. Yeah. No. We weren't mad at you, but we were pissed about it.

But that was the beginning of all of the, it was like, for some reason, I don't know, I think it was right after I had gotten married in my life. And our boss was, it started with that, in the last episode, the comment that Rachel makes, you're a fat girl with a little head. Yes. What was that?

I remember reading that on paper and just being like, what? Like, that's so, it's so random. That actually must be what he thinks of me. And it was such a strange. I just never, you know, you just, there's something, sometimes like, someone will say something to you and you're like, I never ever saw myself that way. And now suddenly, every time I look in the mirror, I'm like, am I fat? Like, do I, I guess I do kind of have a little head. Is that bad?

Is that unattractive? And it's so dumb, but it really followed me around for a long time in my brains. And what a fucker. That was the beginning of it. When that comment came out in the script and we had to do the scene and she had to say it over me like, you know, 10 times in the takes. And then we, from that point forward, it was like I started getting treated like just put joy in the category of like middle-aged mom. And we're going to do all the sexy stuff with everybody else. There's nothing interesting about Joy anymore because she's married and apparently they thought I was fat and boring.

And so that was it. And I just got kind of like replaced with Daniel, who I love. And, you know, I've said a million times like I love her. Yeah. It was just so so weird. But what's crazy about that and this is something I've realized in our industry because of the way we as women get treated, you. being married at the time whether it was conscious or

unconscious meant that a group of men went well no chance of fucking her now so what are we going to do with her and it's like yeah devalue immediately that's not what I'm here for and by the way the irony is that in the last episode you and James have that scene in bed that is vulnerable

and sexy as hell super like him crawling on top of you and you guys having that conversation real close to each other's faces I was like I don't know if I should be watching this, but I like it. This feels intimate. This feels really intimate, and I feel like a fly on the wall, but I want to know what they're saying. And it's like, we don't, our sexiness, our femininity, our ability to connect doesn't change whether we're married or not, or whether we're 20

or 40. Like, I'm sorry. Maybe it's gosh or whatever to say, but I think we're all a ton hotter now than we were then. Girl, I'm freakyer now after two kids than I wasn't 23. Come on. Hello. Yes. I'm way better in bed than I was then. I've heard joy.

Well, it's like, it's true. And it's so irritating to me that what we were allowed to do or portray was governed by whether or not our boss thought he might have a shot. at fucking us. That's just disgusting. And it doesn't, I want to say, like, I know our business isn't easy for men and, like, I get that they get objectified. And look,

we made James take a shirt off a lot on this show. A lot. I don't know if he liked it or not, but it was a lot. And I get that they also have these standards they're supposed to live up to, but they don't go through this part. And I'm pissed that we do. I just, I'm pissed about it. Well, hopefully

girls talk to each other now, you know? Like, like, I hope that there's a, you know, a pack of ingenues coming up that are like, oh, rules, we're not going to follow those. Those are crazy. I miss that in this episode. I missed the camaraderie with the girls in this episode. We were all like split off and dealing with our own weird stuff.

Although one of my, I mean, one thing I really love about the camaraderie that we didn't get to see too much of, but we knew it was there was Brooke being an amazing friend. to Haley and just continuing to take the beating from left, right and center. Everybody's coming after Brooke. And I love that she just holds it in, holds her own, stays there strong for her friend. And then at the end is like, okay, listen, it's time. I've hit my limit. But, you know, she's just so true blue. I love it. I love it too. And I loved, you're right. It was a, it was such a breath of fresh air our scenes together because even they've given this weird thing it's like it's like a it's like a bitchy little seesaw that they give to brooke and rachel

like brook is shooting rachel's photos for the massive thing but they're yelling at each other while they're doing it and i'm like why are we doing this we're roommates you know whatever i get it conflict you need that's how girls are in private i don't know it's pillow and bitchy seesaws. I'm like, if I'm taking pictures of one of you in your underwear, I'm going to be like, you look fucking amazing. Your tits look great.

I'm so proud of you. Who are we saying to imagine doing that for a fren of me? Like, ever. No, ever. So it's like that, that bummed me out a little bit because I think when they give me and Danielle fun things to do together, it's so much more entertaining

than when we're snipping at each other. So it was like such a breath of fresh air. the scenes with us leaning on each other and that was the stuff I thought was so well written the misdirect remains where you still don't know

who's pregnant, what's happening. You know, I keep trying to watch the scenes remembering that at the time nobody knew it was Haley. And it's so tender and real and kind And that's really refreshing, given all the creepiness in the show right now. Yes, I know I loved that.

Matt Barr's back tattoo? God, wow. Man. That psychoderic was really horrifying. And he's so good. Yeah. Matt Barr is just so good at being subtle. And, yeah, I thought they handled it well in spite of all that we were talking about,

about, you know, what it was bringing in, um, just from a purely artistic level. He's a great actor. And I thought, you know, Bethany did a really nice job with that. She did. And it's super creepy. Sure is. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia. And on Burn Sage, burn bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it feels oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a content of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in

television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of 10, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies.

It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare, and frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for a lot of. last 20 years.

I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yes, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My favorite kind of stories are when you can see both sides, right?

And you can see the cool older brother. energy in Matt Barr. Like we said he's got like Ryan Gosling energy where he's like, I don't have a problem with you, Luke. Like, I think you're a cool guy. Like, what's going on here? But boy, the second you see that like underlayer, you can't unsee it. And the escalation of creepy in this episode, it just kept getting grosser and grosser and

grosser and yeah I mean I I know what was going on in LA like we've talked about it our show kind of hit this point where it was like no one could correct or give advice to or rein in our creator anymore and so I know that that writer's room was just a show of like what is the grossest most inappropriate we can get away with on a CW show and yeah because we were then officially competing with Gossip Girl in the OC which was all very sensation wise well was the OC still on at that point I think they only did how many seasons did they do three or four well they started after us though didn't they no they were they launched in the summer yeah oh it was definitely gossip girl I remember that was We were constantly hearing that we were in a race with Gossip Girl all the time, which was so strange because it's just two shows that are completely different.

You go to these places for completely different things. Well, and we all could have been very kumbaya. Like, what if Brooke hung out with the Gossip Girl kids in New York, you know? Yeah, Gossip Girl's great. It was fun. It was like totally, you went there for that whole world and that vibe. Why did we need to also be that world? It didn't make any sense.

No, no. A female executive energy is like, hey, let's do a fun crossover. The energy we had back in those days was, we hate each other. Yeah. Yeah. And it feels like self-sabotage. Like to have two of the biggest hit teen shows on the same network and not say, oh, we could really use this to our advantage. Like, why was close over bros not dressing Serena VanderWudsen?

Hello? Absolutely. Like, dumb. Yep. Why was Peyton Sawyer not kissing that broody dude on the show is what I'm saying. Grumpy motherfucker, I'm into it. Yeah, that's right. See?

Do we want to get into all the Derek of it all? Because there was so much stuff. I feel like it's weird. This episode went, it ping ponged. It was like, Derek, pregnancy, Deb, Shelly, Maxim Shoot, Hyman's. Yeah. And like, there's Ping pong. All over.

All over. Well, we had the introduction of Elizabeth Arnawa. Yeah. Who plays Shelley the Clean Team. We love. The best. And Liz was a friend of mine. And our creator,

this was peak creep, right? Where he was my buddy and was like, what was high school really like for you? And so I told him that I was a part of a group called Clean Teens in high school. And like our joke is that we would, we were at all the football parties, you know, we would like go to stuff.

But we'd be like, virgin for life, you know? It was our way of making fun of ourselves before anyone else could. But also about setting a boundary with the boys at our school so that they just knew not to try anything weird, you know? Yeah. And back then, there wasn't a lot of that. we didn't have like a lot of role models that I could be like hey you know actually I don't want you touching my boobs you know like it was hard to find the language for it and so making a joke out of it put it on a t-shirt that's it was the easiest thing to do because it made it funny and yeah and you had the confidence to pull it off because I didn't fucking care it was just like date me don't date me there's a lot of you I'll figure it out

And the thing is we all were legitimately like virgins, you know, and we were good with that. We didn't feel pressured. When we were in high school, it was the era of, like, Girls Gone Wild and Whip them out Wednesday. And, like, everyone wanted to see your tits. And to stand up to that and be like, my brand of feminism is earn it. Like, you don't, nobody just gets this. This is special. Yeah.

I had no idea when he was like, hey, we want to put clean teens on the show. I thought he was going to honor kind of what that meant. And instead, it turned into this really gross parody where no one actually was a virgin. They were all just hypocrites and liars and mean. And mean, like hateful. But in his mind, every chick is a whore at heart. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. And when you've been the quote unquote whore that exists in his mind, you regret it, you regret your choices, you sob over them, and you want to use them as a weapon to shame other women who don't express this regret over their whoredom too. And it's just like the whole thing makes me so mad. Because it's black and white. Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't also tell the truth about anything. It doesn't tell the truth about your experience. It doesn't actually highlight the experiences of young women. It's like a cartoon version of all of it. And at the core of it is judgment. Yeah, everything's jammed into one, into one like, you know, 20-minute slot when there's so much. so much to be explained, expounded upon.

I mean, we teased out the waterwork for six episodes. We could have teased out the Shelley reveal for a minute. Yeah. I mean, I think the interesting conversation at the very least that it sparks is how people mask shame. Like, what do you do when you feel shame about something? Whether the shame is justified or not, in your own mind, there are plenty of things that I feel shame about that other people would be like, there's what do you worry what are you worried about but you know we all have our own versions of that and how people mask it um usually turns into judgment i think uh in my experience it ends up being

you start using your the the opposite of whatever it is that you're using to cover up your shame you start taking that and lording it over other people and saying why aren't you doing this why aren't you doing it the same way i'm doing it see see look i'm virtuous i'm doing it the right way um and so I've liked the opening of that, because that's an interesting conversation to me. I liked that Shelly, I think it's strange that she trusts Brooke right away with like, you know, her shit. I like that she represents a lot of the girls I did go to school with who weren't necessarily in clean teens, but who belonged. There was a youth group we would go to, they were called the fire. escape. And I think they were named, like, because you were trying to escape the fiery pits of

hell. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah, girl. That's what I'm talking about. They had like a haunted house that was all like drugs and abortion. And it was one of those, right? It was like, Hillary. When I tell you, I grew up in like the thickness of that. I did. And it was, it's a strange mix because you're friends with those kids. And you're like, yeah, it's a Wednesday. And like, there's really nothing else to do in our town. I guess. I'll go to this thing. And I felt really badly for Shelley because I don't think her shame is that, I don't think the shame is hers. I think the shame is something that is imposed on her by her parents and her church.

And Shelley talks about, you meet a boy and you're having fun and everything's like great. And I can't tell my parents I got pregnant at church camp. And it's like, well, baby, why can't you? Why can't you? yeah that's awful great question yeah yeah because judgment judgment isn't love and what bothers me about some of that i don't know about that well that's that's my opinion anyway is that like you don't judge in shame like if you can't tell the people who say they love you what you're going through whether those people will have an opinion that it is a good thing or a bad thing

that's not love. You're not safe. Yes. And what I struggle with in this, again, when you look at who we worked for, a man who cared not at all about the real experiences of women, who wanted to write fantasy experiences of women. And a man, by the way, who does not have children, so has no concept of what pregnancy is. I think that the truth. And no concept that if you want to have a baby, yes, it's a miracle.

but pregnancy is literally a life-threatening condition. Right. Like top to bottom, life-threatening condition. Miraculous, so special, I can't wait to be a mom. My husband is so cute. All I want is a little ginger baby that looks like him. Oh, ginger baby. But, like, Grant's pictures as a little boy with red hair,

just give me eight of them. Like, I can't take it. But, like, pregnancy is dangerous. Yeah. And we've divested. from these realities, and what bothers me about someone like our boss writing this story, which is, shame, shame, shame, regret, regret, regret, nightmare, nightmare. My parents judged me and my church judged me, all the stuff you were mentioning.

How, like, it's actually antithetical to the real experiences of women in our country. 60% of women who seek reproductive care, who seek abortion care, are already mothers, plural. Well, the mythology is it's all slutty teenage. girls that's the mythology and that's why it angers me is the mythology does a disservice it's it's repeating the same kinds of lies as that other vertical we've talked about which like grooms boys to be violent and tells them that's masculinity like i don't like when men repeat lies about women that harm women and i really i struggle with the ways that all of us in various storylines Elizabeth with this thing with Shelly, that each of us have talked about how vulnerable we felt when we had to do things

on screen that we knew to not be true. I don't like that a 45-year-old married man who wanted to cheat on his wife with 20-year-old girls was writing storylines that shamed 16-year-old girls. It like, it makes my blood boil, you know? I see exactly where you're coming from. Yeah. It just irks me, man. I think there is on another viewpoint of that, there is a realism to, I have spoken with plenty of women in my life who have had abortions and feel, and they do feel regret about it. And then there are many who don't. So, and I think the fear and how scared it is to be a teenage girl and be in that position, you know, as I said, when we were watching the. episode, that does seem realistic to me. I think that's a realistic situation. But in the context of everything that we're talking about with who our boss was, how he was just using all of these very deeply complex emotional issues and turning them into quips and sound bites and like fun little emotional storylines, it takes away from the value that actually maybe could have

offered well he weaponizes those things into purity politics and i hear what you're saying and i also have to say like i have a handful of girlfriends who've had abortions who don't regret it and many of many women i've spoken to who are only alive because they were able to have abortions like whose lives were threatened by terminal pregnancies and the reality of of of this conversation, which everyone is entitled to their feelings and their opinions and their emotions. It's an emotional conversation for people, but it is nobody's business to place judgment on what you need or what you needed at the time or what you needed to stay alive or what you needed to get out of an abusive relationship or just what you needed because it wasn't right for

your life. It's nobody's business. And what bothers me here is the judgment. That, again, this man put on all of us as girls. I just, it just gives me the it. Can you imagine being a 16-year-old girl at home who'd had an abortion in 2006 and watching this and being like, oh, I'm bad? Like, we didn't need to do it that way. We just didn't need to have this conversation in that way. And it didn't need to be had by a man who treated women the way that man treated all of us. Man, I just didn't see it that way.

I didn't see it as like if I was 16 at home and saw that and think I'm bad. I would think it's relatable because I probably would have felt some of those things. And what was interesting is that Shelley did take all of those, that shame and emotion and turn it into judgment. And it was very clear that she was doing that and it was very gross. And so it was, I thought it was a nice way of saying, hey, don't, yes, don't shame people. don't act out in judgment the way that she's handling this because it's not pretty and it's harmful and it's hurtful. I like the way Elizabeth played it. Like that panic that she exhibits while she's telling the story to Brooke, it's like she's having an anxiety attack as she's telling

Brooke. And you know when your nervous system is so affected by something that you just cannot mask it? And you see like Shelley's nervous system just like glitching as she's telling this story because she's trying to make it make sense. And she's like, I have to find the path of, like, righteousness and this. And the other thing that bugged me about this was I was like, why do you think all church people are hypocrites? Like, why is the one church person you have in the entire series, the one who's like, I'm a big fat liar and I love to fuck, you know? Like, that was his one representation of a church person on the show. Yeah, it would have been nice to see some alternative perspectives.

Yeah, it's judgment. It's just judgment all around, and I don't like it. But I do, I will say, you know, I think the silver lining to your point, Hill. And by the way, Joy, you're talking about her performance too, is that Elizabeth took something that felt pretty icky all around and was like, I'm going to figure out how to make this girl feel human. and maybe even be an example of like what cruel judgment looks like

and I'm gonna like I'm gonna do more with her like she brought that visceral anxiety she brought that misplaced emotion that she's dumping on Brooke she brought all of that you know she put so much more into the performance than what our boss put on the page and that is when like

I just have moments where I look at you know, the three of us on this screen right now and our friends. I look at Liz and DeNeil on screen and I just think, like, we got such a badass group of women because we were unwilling to be shrunken by the man who wanted to, like, shrink us and put us all in these little boxes with his little labels. All we can see is us, like, tiny on the shelf and like Ripley's, believe it or not. Right? Like, honey, I shrink the kids.

Like one of my most favorite memories as the course of season four, goes on is that he had hired Liz specifically because he was like, well, if this is something that really happened to you, do you have like a hot friend that should come play this person? And I was like, yes. Like my friend Elizabeth, you know, like, and she's friends with Danielle and like our girl gang will be together. And his fantasy was like, this is going to be so hot. And instead, what ended up happening is a stone wall. Just like all the chicks would hide after work and compare notes and it was the worst thing that ever happened to him yeah um those nights were fun it's so victorious that feels nice that feels so nice it may look different but native

culture is very alive my name is Nicole Garcia and on burn sage burn bridges we aim to explore that culture it was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for the content of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the

modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of 10, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare, and frankly, bullshit.

We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for a lot. last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make?

Yes, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The idea of, and this leads me a bit into Dan, the idea of judgment as love, And I want to tap on that a little because I don't think it's in the way that it initially sounds like. But what I'm thinking of is the reason that we demand in our spirits or our hearts, this judgment over Keith's death, over the way that Nathan is being taken care of, the way he's been treated by his parents, particularly with Dan, we want to see Dan receive the justice that he is due. for the horrible things that he's done.

And we want that because we love Nathan, because we loved Keith. And I think that desire for justice often then turns into shame immediately, instead of acknowledging like where it's coming from, this deep, deep love. And when I watch Nathan and Deb and Dan in this episode, I think a lot about that because Nathan, you said it in the last episode that we filmed Hillary or taped

that Nathan is in like full trauma mode. He's been basically abandoned by his parents. He's, his uncle's been shot. I mean, I guess we can just start going down the list of all the horrible thing you know. The child was doing drugs last year. Yeah, that's right. He fell off his bike this episode.

Come on. Yes. All of these awful things that are happening. And now he's totally acting out with Rachel, which is still a little confusing to me. But I like the dance. I like this back and forth just as drama. It's really interesting to watch what's happening with his parents and all that they've created, the hurricane that they've created, how it's affecting him and how it's affecting both of them right now.

Like everybody's spiraling out of control. Because there's no justice. happening anywhere. Do you guys, do you think that that intervention at the beginning of the episode would have been more successful if Dan hadn't been invited? Like, that just, like, how long is he there? I, I feel like no one could have expected that to go well with Dan there. Well, and they knew that it wasn't going to play well, which I think is why they gave the therapist the line being like, you know, everyone who's important to you has to be here. Because everyone was like, why is he here?

She hates him. Yeah. Yeah. Like, he's driven her to drink. She should not be the one in the room. Worst interventionalist ever. Oh, my God. Please invite the person that's going to make you feel the least safe out of everybody in the world.

Your abuser. Didn't that man grab you by the third a week ago? Yeah. Threatened to kill you. We'll have him come. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. What a mess.

I did love the reveal of Keith sleeping with Deb. that was kind of fun. Oh my God, Haley, you're hilarious in that scene. Haley, getting all of the tea is so good. Keith's sleeping with death. What was the other one? Wait, there was one more that you were just like, what is happening? What is what is going on?

There were multiple things and you just like swinging your head around. Like, why does nobody tell me anything? I was cackling. That's an intimidating thing, though, for a kid. Because, you know, addiction is scary when this, when we were filming this, remember that show intervention? It was a hit. Like, it had only...

I watched that show all the time. We would get off work and, like, watch that show because it was like, oh, my God, I can't believe this is on TV. It's crazy sometimes how topical our show is because we were really drawing from the other things that were cultural at the time. Yeah. And that show intervention was, like, a really big deal.

But Deb playing it so... Like, she really does not care. She just does not care at all. And it's heartbreaking because we know we've seen the good. And so it just makes this feel so like scuzzy and weird. Well, because you know how much she does care. And so there's some kind of connective tissue that makes you watch her in this episode and think, if this is how far gone she is, essentially she's behaving like she doesn't care if she's alive or not.

And that is such a sad place for a human to be. And the projection of that none of this matters energy onto her son, onto her daughter-in-law. Can you imagine being the teacher in that classroom where Deb just like walks in? It's the mayor's wife. I guess I better not do anything. And demands pills from a teenager? I mean, that's a call to CPS.

Yes. Even if the kid doesn't live in the house anymore, like, that's a phone call, for sure. No, he's a minor. Then you walk over and take the bottle of pills off the desk, so nobody gets to take anybody home, take any pills home. Nobody gets the pills on you. That's why Haley became a great teacher. No pills for you. No pills for you. No one knew what to do.

And the teacher just says, okay, everybody, back to your tests. What? Insane. That made me uncomfortable. Didn't love that bit. Oh, boy. You know what I did love was you guys' eye makeup in this episode? We all had the double wing.

It was like... It was the hair, Hillary, too. It was a double wing. Who was doing our makeup? Was this Rachel Kick? Was this the Rachel Kick era? Honestly. It feels like a Rachel Kick move.

Yeah, because it all felt like a little, like, punk rock princess. I loved it. Listen, we got some Cosmo Girl and Teen People issues in that hair and makeup trailer. And we were like, we want this. This one. It's just what my notes say. Peyton's Luke. Yeah, you had the double eyeliner and I had that single, like, 60s wing.

And I didn't even realize it until we were at Trick, but we both had our hair half up. Different dues, like yours was really curly and romantic. And mine had, like, that, like, little 60s push up in the back almost. But I wonder if they were like giving us, well, that's probably what it was. But it weirdly struck me visually as, oh, you know, we have these two best friends that aren't speaking right now. But they can't help but make the same choices still because they're so similar. You know? That's so cute.

Yeah. I thought it was really cute. I like that. Like we kind of showed up looking like each other and I liked it. Yeah, we sure did. I mean, we're going after the same dude or not. Who knows? I just want to say, Peyton once again is like, go talk to Brooke.

Luke, I'll never talk to you again. It's fine. I don't care. Go talk to Brooke. I give you to her on a silver platter. She's all yours. Peyton could not have tried harder to get those two back together. It is so funny.

It is so funny. It's like Lucas says to all those boys, she's all yours. fellas and you're basically like Lucas she's really she's all yours she's the one everybody's just trying to give Brooke away oh god it's only a matter of time before Peyton does that thing where she like sends flowers to Brooke but signs Lucas's name like starts like doing parent trap shit I need you guys to get back together she's doing the cute version of Derek telling lies to everybody but instead of trying to keep them apart she's trying to make a romance happen oh god we tried you know We sure tried.

But that whole night at trick is weird because we laughed so hard when when Rachel slides an underwear picture over to Nathan on the bar. And it just is so dated because now we send iPhone pictures. Like here, look at my boobs. Congratulations. But you had to print out a whole ass picture back in 2000, whatever. There you go. I printed this out. Costco and keeping your locker. Yeah. I wore underwear in this shot to make sure the guy

at Rite Aid didn't see my ariolas. Like, oh, God. Oh, God. Ew. That word makes me so uncomfortable. I mean, to Nathan's credit, he passed the picture back. He gave it back. He did. He did give it back. That's what I was going to say. I really, I continue to be so impressed with the way that James plays Nathan in all of these scenes because it would be so easy to lean into flirting with Rachel and he manages to be very compassionate but to have a firm wall up. He's not judging her, he's not shaming her,

he's not leading her on, he's just like, you're going through something, I see you, this is not for me. it's it's so it's classy and mature yeah it's getting into dangerous territory though oh yeah oh yeah i feel it's like bubbling beneath the surface like it's getting into a place where he could potentially still sleep with her just because he feels like it and there's some kind of chemistry happening but not get emotionally caught up in it yeah hey man she's having a rough time i know well and you see the way he begins to change the energy, like who Nathan is at that bar when he hands

that picture back to Rachel begins getting chipped away at by the time they're out in the parking lot and he gets on that motorcycle with her. Yeah. But to James's credit, it's so subtle and it would have been really easy to play it up and to go, oh God, what's happening to Nathan? But you said it, Joy, you go, I can see it. it might be coming and I love I love the hint of it rather than the the big change happening quickly yeah they did that right I liked it yeah well the scene that you guys had Haley and Nathan where he is just like can you believe Brooke is doing this to Lucas oh my God that scene I know that was the first time that I think as an audience member you go oh it's Haley it's not

Brooke. Because they let me have the reaction there. Yeah. And you're like, because she's scared and he says, yeah, I'd be scared. How do you tell a guy's life's over? Oh, big gut punched. Oh my God. Like you guys, that turned my stomach upside down. Yeah. Yeah. Awful. Oh. They're going to have to go back to their round bed and talk about it. Yeah. I mean, if he's going to crawl on top of you again, talk it out, baby. Where do you find sheets for a round bed? Girl, I think you have to have two flat sheets and then just like hope it doesn't untuck in the middle of the night yeah how distressing have you guys seen the videos about the Swedish sleeping method what's this i went down i you guys went down a hole on tick she found it on Pinterest no he's on tick actually a man it imagine that

this journal that i'm lifting up is your bed like this is the mattress but this half and this half are their own comforters so you basically get like two queen size comforters and you basically get like two queen size comforters and and you like lightly overlap them over the center so each person has their own comforter but you're in the bed i don't i don't like to lose covers in the middle of the night so i don't know that it would be for me but i've now watched so many videos about it that i'm obsessed and i i know that at some point this week i'm going to creep my husband out because i'm going to be like hey i'm going to bring another comforter downstairs he's going to be like what are you talking about hear me i love it no separate comforts and be like listen it's not as weird as around

bed. Let me try this because for one night. Yeah, we need to be more creative in our bed making. I get it. I get it. Plus, you two are like both only children. I think, like, having your own blankies is totally cool. Yeah. And then way do you have kids? Because that's a whole, that's a whole reason to get your own blanket. Oh, my God. I know. Oh, my God. What we do do that is quite funny is I love to sleep under a weighted blanket because I have tremendous anxiety and it calms me. I'm like, if you've ever read Temple Grandin's studies on farm animals, you'll know that to be squeezed lowers anxiety in animals and in humans. And so I sleep under a weighted blanket and a weighted blanket is Grant's worst nightmare. He is like that thing, that is my, it's evil. I hate it.

So what we've settled on. That's my heaven. Oh, my God. It's my heaven. A nice heavy blanket. It's like, it's just like a nice, it's a nice touch. And so what we do now is the weighted blanket is on one third of the bed

Like all the way on the right side One third from the bottom of the bed Up to the top of the covers, weighted blanket And then there's two thirds of the bed that's uncovered So I can cuddle with him in the two thirds of the uncovered bed And then when we're both like about to fall asleep I scooch I retreat over under the weighted blanket

But it doesn't get on his legs because he hates it There's no retreating on a round bed Like there's not an edge You just fall off. By the way, where are your feet supposed to go? They're going to dangle off the curved part. No, it's totally, totally non-functional. I feel like the only way to sleep on a round bed

is to sleep in the fetal position at all times, which is not good for your back. Yeah, or just be a single person, one person in around bed. Or one single person. Right in the center. You're just like a starfish. That's what the round bed is for. A round bed is for when you go through a breakup and you're happy about it.

and you're like, it's mine. Starfish. Now, here's what I need for us to do is take the video of you acting out all of those things right now, but mute it. And then just run the tape. Starvich! And the mold making, shuffling. Oh, my God. It may look different, but Native culture is very alive.

My name is Nicole Garcia. and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls

became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other. Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi, nine times out of

10, they called me a massacist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare, and frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy?

Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yeah, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. guys we have a question from dana she says did you all make a playlist together for the drama queen's rv road trip and what are some of the songs you played to get you hyped for shows we definitely had

some aba in that we didn't make a playlist but we had a we had a DJ and we yeah we made live playlists every day what is that when you like add songs to the cue and yeah we were doing we were doing a lot like Abba show tunes. I was trying to go back to senior year in high school and requested vitamin C graduation song and Sophia could not have been less into it. So I just like remember looking in the rear of your mirror at one point and she was like, are we there yet? You were not into the vitamin C of it all.

I don't know, man. I just wanted to go back to like Abba and Cher. I'd really been feeling that vibe. I will say though, the other thing that I love, loved, because obviously we love podcasts. I loved that we had the perfect mix of tunes that we were belting. And then we would get into podcasts. And Hillary, you played us your friend's podcast, Rabia and Ellen solve crime. Or is it solve the case? Okay. You played us your friends podcast. Robia and Ellen solved the case. I am so deeply obsessed that I've also gone down a rabbit

hole on the case we talked about and sent a bunch of TikTok videos to some friends. And I'm like, guys, you got to listen to this podcast. It's so good. I must have been sleeping when this happened. You were definitely sleeping. Rabia Chaudhry is, she's got a book that just came out called Fatty, Fadi Boom, Boom. It's her memoir. But she is a lawyer who was vital in getting Adnan Saeed out of prison.

And she does a lot of exoneration work and wrongful conviction work. And I met her working on a wrongful conviction case in Tennessee. And so I love seeing other women out there thrive and push back against patriarchy and unjust systems. And, yeah, I mean, look, if we can do a crossover with, like, chicks who are solving crimes, we'll be drama crime queens all day. Give it to me. All day. I'm so in. Yeah. Yeah, ma'am.

Well, thank you for your question, Dana. Yeah. Should we spin a wheel? Let's spin a wheel. What if it's who's most likely to solve true crime? I would die. Solvin crimes. Is the wheel listening to us?

Oh, my God. Don't be a creep wheel. Don't be a daring. Who's most likely to travel to space? Who's the richest? Yeah. I mean, our boss made all the money on our show, unfortunately. Yeah, Andy.

That's a great answer. Andy. Andy's the right answer. I mean, look, if money wasn't an option. Right? Yeah. Not an option. Did you see that thing that William Shatner said about seeing Earth from space and how he thought it was going to be the best moment of his life?

And instead it made him so incredibly sad. Wait, why? Really? Yeah. He was like, it just made me realize that we were squandering the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life. Like, it was to have someone whose entire career has been space oriented, finally, like, do the thing. and then have it make him feel remorseful, I guess, or just like an element of grief.

I was really taken aback by that. That's surprising. Yeah. As a Ray Bradbury fan, I always thought, like, yeah, we'll go live on Mars. That sounds dope. Yeah. I'll go do that.

But I think it's really interesting that point, right? Because, you know, I've listened to a couple of astronauts on podcasts as well who've said that it, when you really, see the earth out there and you realize what's here like what is on this planet and you just see the rest of space there's just like rocks empty out there in the empty you go how how are we still fighting over things how are we not all on the same team how are we not protecting this planet like it's a miracle and so i i feel that you know the when you look around and you go like man we're still missing it after all this time like aren't we supposed to be smarter be nice to each other

everyone i like things that make me feel small i think that's one of the reasons and also things that just remind me i'm like a cog in the wheel i think that's why i've always been attracted to antique stores and having things in my home that are that have history because it's like this sort of subconscious reminder that there was a whole life and world and many many thousands and thousands of civilization years of civilization before this moment right now and there hopefully will be many more in the future and I'm just like I'm a blip on the radar I like that well I found the exact quote he says it was among the strongest feelings of grief I have ever encountered the contrast between the vicious coldness of space and the warm nurturing of earth below

filled me with overwhelming sadness every day we are confronted with the knowledge of further destruction of earth at our hands, the extinction of animal species of flora and fauna, things that took five billion years to evolve, and suddenly we will never see them again because of the interference of mankind. It filled me with dread. My trip to space was supposed to be a celebration. Instead, it felt like a funeral. Oh, Willie. William Shatner. Well, then you know what? I'm glad we made a TV show that's about mankind trying to be nice to each other. You know, I mean, like, for all the dorkiness of One Tree Hill, for all of our missteps, if we are going to be here for a blip, like, let's make, let's make a warm

hug, you know? Yes, ma'am. Mm-hmm. I love that. Also, thanks for joining us. I didn't know William Shatner was so poetic and I'm so touched. Oh, yeah. Well, let's go make some more loving content, guys.

Let's do it. All right, we will see you guys next week. Oh, my God, this title's awful and perfect. Oh, no. Season 4, Episode 5. I love you, but I've chosen darkness. Oh, God. Oh, God.

Bye, everybody. Bye, y'all. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens, O-T-H. Or email us at Dramaquins at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens.

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Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. From Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries, this is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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