Drama Queens - Live from Wilmington with Barbara Alyn Woods

Episode Date: March 28, 2025

Backstage at TRIC in Wilmington, Joy and Rob are joined by Barbara Alyn Woods! Barbara opens up about her party-girl reputation, the original plan for her character Deb, and what happened to Deb in the later seasons.    Plus, in a surprising twist, Barbara introduces the new love of her life to the Drama Queen audience...   Follow Drama Queens on Instagram and TikTok @dramaqueensoth See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens.

Hi, friends. Welcome in. We have another special episode for you today coming from none other than Wilmington, North Carolina. I am joined by the one and only, BJL. That's Bethany Joy Lens for you people who aren't hip. And we have an extraordinarily cool guest. I was so excited when I heard about this booking because she happens to be one of my new favorite friends. The life of every party, and everyone's favorite nanny slash ex-wife slash firecracker.

Ex-addict, ex, what is it? Cat suit on a billboard, like, who knows? Yeah, the one and only Barbara Allen Woods. Hi. Hi, guys. Hi. We were just debating. Is it Babs?

Is it Barbie? Is it? All of the above. Anything that starts with B. Okay. Beautiful. B. Yeah.

All those things. Anything, yes. Babe. Brave. I go with Babe, I love Bay. Blonde, if we're just going for low-hanging fruit. There we go. You were saying you always got this, you got the reputation as a party girl?

Well, I know. Since One Tree Hill, I have this reputation as a party girl. Oh, it's since One Tree Hill. I think so. Like, people think that of me. I feel like it's just such a bubble burst when they find out I'm kind of a homebody. Yeah. But I think it's also because I'm an open book.

Yes, you are. I'm now inviting you to open my book. Yeah. Because I just like, I just say how I feel all the time. And so when they ask me to host certain things like events, I'm out there and I tell it like it is and I put people in their place. And that I think they think that I'm just like a crazy wild party girl. Well, having spent some time with you at the last convention in Paris that we did together, I will say, I think it's just also because you have such a lightness to you and an energy. and it just seems like you are genuinely enjoying, like, wherever you are.

And so I think it's very easy to confuse that with, like, a party girl. Yeah. Because usually takes people booze to just be like, you know, be in an ordinary setting. But that's just kind of the energy you carry with you wherever you go. And it sounds really corny, but I really do enjoy One Tree Hill events. I mean, they make me happy. Like, the reunion with these, some of my favorite people. I do enjoy.

So it's genuine. You know, I don't like fake the happiness and I'm having a good time. I really am having a good time. But you're consistent in your, which is one of my favorite qualities in people anyway, is that the joy that we see in you here whenever we come, when I see you outside of these environments, too, you're the same. When I talk to you on the phone, like you, you're just, you have a light. As Rob said, you have a lightness.

There's an effervescence. And I feel supportive of my castmates in general. You know? I mean, that makes me feel like I'm saying, oh, I'm a saint or something. But I really do. Like, I went at the concerts last night. I love going to your concert. I love wherever Tyler is. I'm like, oh, can I be there? You know, just like to support, support. Because we all kind of came from the same place. You guys are off doing so many other things now. But it's like, why not? You know? It feels like we kind of get to reclaim some time that we didn't get to. We didn't know how to do that for each other back then. And kind of making up for me, maybe. making up for lost time. I never knew the second half of the show. I never knew you guys. Yeah. Yeah. And I knew you and joy, oh my God, so many things, this is a whole other podcast, but so many things I wish we had spoken about when we were working together every day. Like, I don't know. It's just so maybe for me it is making up for lost time. Yeah. For making up for time that I, I wish I had spent a tiny bit differently when I was doing the show, but I was so focused on raising

kids full time. Yeah. So I would work and go home, raise kids. Work, go home, raise kids. Yeah. So anyway. We were all in that stage of life in a different way. Yeah. I wasn't raising kids, but I was obviously had my own crazy world going on. And we're all, you know, we were all in that phase of life where we were keeping our work separate from our personal lives, which makes sense. Everybody wants to be professional. But it, when I, if I did it again in another place that was insular like Wilmington is, I really would want to. invest in the people that I was working with and spend more time. That's exactly how I feel.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's what these conventions are. I mean, that's what they were for me was that, like, we got to come back as adults. And I just realized how great the group is. Yeah. And so it is, like, we talk about all the time. It's like strong summer camp vibes, you know, because when I was doing the show,

like, I had my own stuff going on. Everyone else had their own stuff going on. So we didn't really get to know each other. And then it was sort of like, we all, like, left war. And then we came back once we, like, did some healing. And we're like, oh, you're actually a cool person. You're super fun. Yeah.

I like you. I don't know I like to. Against each other. Like, you're great. And also when we were in Paris, because it was like, it was all hours were long. Very long. There were a lot of people. And we love our Paris fans.

And it's a lot of emotion. And I felt like we were all in the trenches together. Yeah. Like in the green room was like the trenches. But we were in it together. We're going to get through this together. Yeah. So it's like the bonding experience, you know.

You've worked so long that you've had such an illustrious. career. And is it illustrious or illustrious? I'm not sure what the right word is. But either way, it's been fabulous. Have you found this kind of energy on a lot of other sets that you've been on? Like, is it, was it unique? You know, you always have the few people, you know, it's, oh, we're a family. We're going to keep in touch. And it's so hard. Yeah, yeah. But I do have a few from other shows that, you know, years, years ago and they're still a part of my family, which is amazing. And if you can get the, like, pick out a few special people to carry with you to the rest of, you know, for the rest of your life.

It's really special. But these conventions, and I know this has been said a hundred times, but this is keeping us together. Yeah. These conventions are keeping us together. Yeah. And I don't know.

I just hope they never die because... Because that's the truth, though. If we didn't have these conventions, I wouldn't have almost any of the relationships I have with One Tree Hill cast members today. And your podcast, you know, keeping people together. No, it's good. It's all good.

We're all such special people. It's also like, or so special. Speaking of special people, it's just jump right into your career. You have had a lot of TV daughters. So here's my question for you. Who was your favorite TV daughter, your real-life daughter, Natalie, or your real-life daughter, Emily? Robert.

Or my real-life daughter, Allie. Allie played your daughter in a something? For an entire series. Oh, was that Chuckie? Yes. I thought that was Emily for some reason. I didn't know if you were a mom-in-dother. No, but I did play Emily's daughter.

In a pilot, I played her mother. And then on the Goldbergs, I played Natalie's mother. Oh, my gosh. The Goldbergs. Well, great. Now let's make it all three of your real-life daughters. I want you to rank them. Rob, you can't.

What kind of the question is this for a book? I'm going for it. Well, first of all, I liked my character the most that I played against Allie. Okay. I liked that character the most because she was just a raging crazy, you know, hot mess. And it was so much fun because she was a regular on the show. And so we were running lines at home. We were living together, you know, not at home, not in L.A.

So we were living together in an apartment, just the two of us, and having to run these lines where I was just the worst. mother in the world. And we could literally not look at each other without laughing. And I didn't know if we would be able to make it to set. Like, I didn't know how we would be on set. I thought we were going to be unprofessional. Like, we couldn't get through. Wow. Because we couldn't make it. Yeah, that's hard. It was like really hard to call her names and to be so horrible to her and look in her eyes. But then when we got there, it was, it was great. So I'd have to say that experience, am I cheating? Because I'm not choosing Allie, but the experience with Allie, I'll choose.

I'll choose. But the Goldbergs was a comedy. That's my favorite thing to do. I love doing comedy. That was Natalie. Yeah. And then Emily, I just love hanging out with Emily. So that was really political, my answer.

So what I heard, though, was that it was nowhere near close. It was Olivia first place, Natalie, second place, and in a distant third, MRI. But the thing is, Allie's here with me right now, too. Is she? so yeah we just saw her when we came in she's so fun she's got that same energy that you do by the way she really carries that same

and Natalie and I know all three girls and when I see Natalie and I run into her at like events which is the last time I saw her was some event she's like she's so beautiful and she's so intelligent and she's but she's got it's not like the lightness but she's not like edgy

she's like she's super warm she's warm that's the thing there's so much warm Yes. In Paris, I thought the same thing. Wow, she's incredibly kind. And Emily's like crazy smart and super edgy. She's got this like, we do not have the same energy.

It's so funny. We're so opposite. Yes. She's also got a warmth to her. I mean, she's not cold, but it's different. She's cool. When you call me extraordinarily cool, like no one has ever called me that because I'm not cool.

That's okay. I'm passed it down to her. I'm cool with not being cool. Look at your Instagram, Babs. Get out of here. You passed it down to her. I mean, I have a cool life, but I'm not cool. That's okay. I'm cool with not.

Listen, Julie and I are supremely cool. We only hang out with extraordinarily cool people. You have a cool energy. I don't. It's okay. I'm fine with that. But Emily has a cool energy. She does.

She's so cool. Do you think, is there anyone else in the industry you can think of who has worked with their children in the capacity that you have? Yeah, on such a regular basis too. It's just the three daughters, correct? Yeah. So you've worked in a, you've recreated your parents. child dynamic with all three of your children.

Yeah. I can't think of anyone else who's done that. And I homeschooled all of them too. And it's, I mean, we're friends somehow still because they've spent a lot of time with me. Sounds like someone might be extraordinarily cool. I'll take it. Yeah, yeah. But Natalie's producing now.

So I'm like, oh, she's a producer. Now she can hire all of us. That's perfect. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for the kind of

of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford. Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple

podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Get this gang, Ray, the founder of Friends with Benefits, the convention company that runs these amazing events that we are currently at, has been working on and designed a one tree hill themed Airbnb set in where else, but Wilmington, North Carolina. And get this gang, it is available for booking now on the the Airbnb app. This is such a cool idea. I remember us talking about this a while ago and we never actually followed through with it.

I'm so glad somebody else did. Guys, the FWB team led by Ray, Brittany and Juanita, along with a ton of help from volunteers, are officially turning trick back into the actual trick like the nightclub in the show. For more updates about that and other events, follow FWB on Instagram at FWB charity events. Are you a better teacher? Or actor. Oh. Oh.

I'm a really good acting teacher. Yeah. Yeah. Well, with my... Are you running for office? With that. Because you're doing a tremendous job of dodging these questions. I mean, I've often been approached about coaching people because of their success.

But I don't think I could coach anyone other than my daughters because I, you know, I'm like, tough. I'm tough. And I feel like I can be tough with them, but I don't think I could be tough with. And I have to coach people who are already good. You know what I mean? Like I couldn't teach someone to be good. No. But I don't know if anyone can. I mean, you either know how to act or you don't. You know, you have an instinct to know how to tell a story or you don't. Isn't it funny? Yeah, isn't that funny? I think so. Yeah, I think so too. It's something you're born with. Yeah. Whether you are a professional actor and pursue it or not doesn't necessarily make the qualification. I think it's just like people inherently either have the ability to feel comfortable

in whatever environment and just share their story or not. And I'm not necessarily into coaching in general, but that's a whole other thing. But I think because they were my kids, I could just you know, teach them the basics and just to trust their instincts and, you know, things like that. But so did I answer? I was more speaking to the homeschooling. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I was a really good teach. First of all, I was a good student in school. I was, you know, an A student. So school was really important to me. And when my kids decided they wanted to graduate early because they're actors, it was a big deal to me that I was taking school away from them. Because just the social, like what I got out of school socially was a lot for me. And I carried that with me through life.

So it was a little bit sad to me that I was taking that away. Homecoming dances and just, you know, friends and hanging in the lockers and like they don't know how to do a locker code because they've never been to school. P.E. All those things. You know, after school, eating lunch in the cafeteria. Like, they're not going to have those things. All the things we experienced in One Tree Hill. All of our characters got to go through it. Exactly. So school was important to me. So I made sure that they had all those little, I even had a homecoming dance for Allie. I threw a homecoming dance for, it was a prom, not homecoming, a prom.

But I was a good teacher because it was important to me. And also I became an actress. And I was a little sad that I didn't pursue anything, you know, in the other fields. I wanted to be an English teacher. Oh, my gosh. And so in the program that I had them in, I was able to choose any subjects and go as heavy or light as I wanted to. And they took tests at the end and they, you know, had to show that they were proficient.

But it was very heavy arts because it seemed as though that was the direction they were going anyway. Yeah. I wasn't trying to manipulate them into the arts, but it seemed like that was the direction they were going. So we would watch classics. So if you ask my daughters, you know, their favorite movies, they'll know the classics. They'll know, you know who Elizabeth Taylor is and they've seen all of her movies.

And then we would, for science, which was not my strong point, we would watch documentaries and or movies about science. And homeschooling is so fun. I was able to just, I don't know, tailor their education to what they seem to be interested in and where their paths were going. I wonder if that's one of the reasons why they, you know, it's so rare, I think, to meet kids, kids. who grew up in LA who are children of entertainment professionals who are normal and down to earth and cool and actually like really healthy. And as you're talking about being their acting teacher and teaching them how to trust their instincts, there's something especially for young women about learning at a young age how to trust your instinct and be okay with that. That is pretty,

pretty formative. I bet that's played a huge role. I mean, I'm not their mother, but I would assume from listening to what you're saying that that played a huge role in who they are today and why they're so healthy and grounded. Yeah. And not being overcoached. Yeah. And I think a lot of, you know, when you're not in the business and you're a parent who wants to get your kids into the business because they're precocious or they're, you know,

they seem to have talent or they're good looking or whatever. And then you just get them coached and coached and coached and they stop thinking for themselves. Yeah. And so for me, it was just, it was really all about, don't think, don't think. Yeah. It creates a massive. amount of insecurity as well, I think, because then you're constantly focused on yourself all

the time. Yes. So to, as a young actor. As a young actor. Yeah. So that's, it sounds like you've, I've always been in awe of your ability as a mother. That is the nicest compliment. I truly have. You, you always felt like a safe place. And I was, we were texting the other day about this, but you always felt like a safe place to me on set. And I didn't, I didn't know necessarily how to ask for advice or help many times. But even like, I mean, the time I had to put my cat down and Barbara came over and was like there with me while I had to put my cat, the vet came over. And Barbara just sat with me because I was like, I need a mom. And I don't want to do this alone. I'm like 22.

I don't want to put my cat down alone. Really, 22. Oh, my God. And I thought if I didn't have a 22 year old then. So I thought of you as, you know, an adult. Like. Yeah. But now I know what 22 is.

Oh, my gosh. That's really young. Yeah. So young. Yeah. So you always felt like it's such a safe place. I'm just so lucky that we got you on the show. But once again, I would love to do it again and be there more for you and more for all the girls. And to be, because I think I've always been a mom. Like I'm very maternal. I knew when I was 10 years old, I wanted to be a mom. And even then with my friends, I was maternal. So I wish I would have had more time with all of you to mother you. and just to be there. And you, I did, but like I said, I didn't think of you as young. Because you were all so, you acted so mature.

I don't know what you were feeling inside. Yeah. But feeling like we were 14. Like, what are we doing here? Just raising ourselves. Yeah. This is so weird. Yeah.

Not living at home. I know. So do you have advice for, like, what advice do you have as a mom? Like, what are some of the best pieces of advice that you have been given? that you've learned the hard way. What I've learned is the less you react when they're going to hear this and then my secret's going to be gone. But the less you react when they tell you something shocking, the more they'll tell you. Yes, that's good. Even if you don't agree with what they've done or what they're telling you, go with it because they're telling you because they either need

to get it off their chest or they need advice or they trust you. And if you go, what? you did that you know like the less judgmental you are the more they'll confide in you which has been really hard yeah so much self-control emily my middle just tells me everything and sometimes you don't want to hear certain things but you just have to go with it like okay yeah it's okay yeah and then you know you're not going to cut you know cut the communication off because the soon as you are judging them it's over yeah it's over That feels like really consistent advice in terms of your personality as well, because you provide that space for everybody, I think, that you come into contact with. You feel like- Don't judge.

Yeah. And you want people in your life who don't judge you. That's right. Unconditional love. It's the same thing with the toddler, right? It's like the bigger reaction you have to them doing something, the better the odds they're going to keep doing it. Yes. Or they'll be terrified and won't ever take risks again.

Yeah, there's that too. Yeah, it's a big deal with a toddler. What are some of your big pieces of advice that you feel like you've already garnered wisdom on like, ah, okay, here's the hack. I have two mantras that I have been leaning on heavily, and especially in December when the whole family got COVID. So everyone was at like 8%. I really leaned into, this is funny because it was something like it was part of the script for our kids.

but I ended up using it myself, which is I can do hard things. So, like, I would, I'd be having moments where I was literally at my wits and, like, the very best I could do was to not make the situation worse. And I would actually say it aloud, I can do hard things. And my kid would look at me like, is dad melting down? But it would, like, it would rain me in. And then I heard another one two days ago, Jenny told me, you know, when he's having a big feeling. There's a simple question, would you like to be heard, helped, or hugged?

Wow. And I was like, that's great. Can I have all three? Yes. And yes, all three are totally simple as well. And then the last thing, so I guess the third is, this is just when I just remind myself because I didn't realize how much anxiety I have until I heard the way I would be talking to like to our son.

So, you know, like he would spill the water. I'd be like, but, buddy, buddy, buddy, buddy. I was like, oh, wait, he's going to pick this up. like I need to. And then you hear him do it. Yes. And so I always remind myself, I'm like, slow down, soften, just don't take it all so seriously. Yeah. And it kind of helps me right in like, it's just water on the floor. Yeah. You know, like, because I can catch myself getting like a little too tight on the rains. Like, and it's like, and they pick up your energy. They just pick up your energy. It's, you know, yeah, whatever you're feeling, sometimes I'm in a really

good mood and I notice people, like my kids are in good moods. Like, wait. Why? Did I start that treat? Like, did I? Am I the one who's like creating this? Or if I'm not in a good mood, same thing. Like, why are you so crabby? Well, because you are. You're like, oh, I'm the one who has to be like the happy one here. Okay, I got it. And you're, well, you're in the teenage years. Yeah. Wow. Isn't that nuts? And a girl teenage. Yeah. Super calm. How are you doing? I'm doing great. She's awesome. She's awesome. I can tell. She's great. She's so polite and kind. and like it's fun and you know i mean it's just been the two of us for so yeah life really so yeah yeah it's we have we have our we have our thing i mean i think that's it just like don't get on the roller coaster yeah come to show up to the theme park with them but like you stay on the ground and they get to go on the roller coaster yes and i'm just here when you get off the ride yeah i'll wave for a do I'll wave at you. Yes.

I'm the top. Oh, you're at the top. But, yeah, no, it's, it's been, it's been really a joy. Truly, I feel, I feel so lucky. It's the best thing ever. Yeah, it is. It's best thing ever. Well, you got to be the mom of a boy on one tree hill.

And I wondered, like, how, how, how, Deb. We, we've had you on the show before. So I don't remember which questions we've already asked you or not. But, like, I wanted to know how Deb came to be the personality that she became. Isn't that funny? Because it was so different. Because she went downhill. Because she felt so much like this.

It was very much what I think of as, like, a boy mom. Like, she was really, she was really kind of strong and tough and, like, had everything in a row, all her ducks in a row. And everything was very not-case. And then the world just all started falling apart. I don't think they had, what happened to Deb, I don't think, was planned. I think this is my theory, and I might have said this on the podcast before, but my theory is that, well, first of all, the writers on Wintry Hill really wrote, I think, for us as they got to know us, maybe wrote to our strengths, maybe added some comedy or not, and maybe tried to press some emotional buttons, some emotional buttons where we didn't want them to press. Emotional vampirism. Yes.

But I think that when they got to know me and they knew I was sort of up for fun, party Barbara, party babs, whatever. They knew I was up for fun and just kind of like, yeah, throw me some fun, exciting stuff to do that at that point, Deb started going downhill because she became, you know. A cautionary tale? Yes, yes. But you were never having more fun. It was so much more fun to play a character like that. When I go back and watch the beginning episodes, she's just boring. Like that character is just like, okay, let's have some fun.

Yeah. What was the sort of initial conceit of Deb? Like how big of a role were you supposed to have and what did it look like? Deb was a three-episode arc. Get out. What? You didn't know that. You did so well.

Yeah. That you overstayed your welcome. I know. You extended your stay and Tree Hill, pardon me. Yeah. And this is even better. I was on another show at the same time, not a regular, but a recurring role in L.A., and I knew that One Tree Hill wanted me for three episodes. I was in love with this character. I just love,

I was in love with the show, the writing. And I don't think I saw into the future that I would be there further than three episodes, but I really wanted those three episodes. But I had to choose between the two shows. And the other show would have possibly taken me further as well. And I had to choose and I chose one tree hill knowing that it was only three episodes so then when they extended and I and on top of it I never went home so after three episodes they said would they want to keep you here so I didn't even pack for it I didn't even I never even went home so yeah and then you were here for five years how I always remember I mean I always forget how many I don't know but we were just watching episodes like a Thanksgiving episode that I directed and you weren't there I was

I'm like, where is Deb? There's a weird thing of Deb disappearing. It's like when Dan goes away. No one explained it. No one explained it. Which is odd because your life had become a lot more than Dan. Yes. By the end.

And all of a sudden she just shows up one day with Jamie, I think, as the babysitter or something. Like, no one ever really explained it. Wait, but season eight, you're just gone. Yeah. Did you ever get a phone call? Were you working on other things? Oh, yeah, season seven. I really honestly don't remember.

I think season eight I moved back. to L.A., so I must have thought I wasn't coming back. I don't remember, like, the series that, I think they were going to have me come, like, an occurring basis or something. I don't really remember. Did you come back for the end? Were you there? I did. I was there at the end. Okay. I don't remember

yet. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years.

You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con, or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. had a thing? No, that was like five, I think. It was early. Yeah. I should know this, but I think that was five. Okay. And then they broke up, you guys broke up, and then you helped us, the nanny-carry thing.

Yeah. That was psychotic in season six, maybe. I don't remember exactly. And I had Allie, I think, season five. Yeah. So I had to leave for a little bit to have her. And, yeah. Well, we missed you so much.

We're really missing you on the show right now as we were watching. Oh, what are you on right now? 8.12? Yeah? Well, what's happened? So, Brooke and Julian are almost about to get married. Okay. And...

Brooklyn has died. You'll never believe it. Oh, my God. I did watch you guys. I watched the whole show with Allie. Not at the time. Now, Allie wanted to watch all nine. Now she's starting over.

She's a mega fan now. And it's so different for her to be here. Well, she knew you already. But like to know everybody and being here is different because she used to go to the conventions with me and not really know everybody. But same here. Like, I didn't see your work until recently. And you got, you're good.

You're so good. Yeah, Rob's really good. It's so good. It was the same with you. I hadn't, because we never crossed pads. Yeah. It wasn't until the rewatched. It's like, oh.

You're so good. Oh, yeah. That's right. It's like kind of like two different shows, but I mean, I wish I'd come back and entered your storyline. That would have been so much. I mean, I'm. What would Deb and Clay have gotten into?

Oh, my goodness. We would have had an affair. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I stopped for a second because of my own. Yeah. Oh, I would have. I mean, Quinn went off to like, oh, no, she said she was going to Africa or something, but she didn't go.

The right age. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Over 18. That's all that matters. I know this because I think the character was supposed to be, remember when I got the job, I think the character was supposed to be like early 30s. And I was 28 or 20.

And so I was like, they're like, hey, it's cool. Just grow out your facial hair. And so if you go back and watch my first two episodes, I have a very unconvincing want to be beard and stubble to make you look one year older. Truly, to the point where it gets abandoned like one or two episodes into season seven because I was like, I don't think I'm pulling it off. And everyone in LA was like, you're absolutely not pulling it off. Just shave your face.

But you were playing an adult with a job. Yes. So, yeah, that would have been a perfect fit. My gosh. Damn. Oh, well. In another life. Clay and Deb.

In another life. Cleb, would that be our couple name? Yeah. Cleb. Deil. Delay? No. Delay?

Delay. What an actual word? Oh, my gosh. That's so good. I love all the imaginings of what would have been. I was pregnant on the show hoping that they would just write it in instead of having to hide. It's hard to hide a woman's stomach and enormous boobs and let's write it in. Deb? Yeah, because Deb's what? 39 or something? Like she's not like she's 52. Like it's, I mean,

I'm pregnant. So Deb could be pregnant. We're kind of the same age. And for the writers just like, they're like, what? We don't know what to do with that. I mean, I think the same thing happened to Haley. Like once I had a kid, then they were kind of like, well, what do we do? with you now you're not interesting anymore so it opened everything opens up like so many possibilities oh my gosh you become so much more interesting you become so much more aware of so much more yourself so much more comfortable being who you are we can throw in a sexy nanny that you hire so many possibilities wait speaking of possibilities i've said for a while that there should be prequel to one tree hill like there should be they need to do like deb dan and karen in the 80s

you know so i've never heard this idea but yeah and then one of my daughters could play me in the prequel this is my question actually which one of your daughters do you think would i mean well look we know that olivia's the right age alley's like got yeah she's the right age for one tree hill and i feel like that would be a good fit she would be great i could also see emily and natalie like I guess it just depends on how they wrote the character. Rank them. Maybe the prequel. You love the most.

The prequel could go over a few years and then it could be all three of them. Oh, I gosh, it could. That would be great. Wow. Yeah. Like, I just think that is such a, I think that would be so much fun. It's actually a great idea. I think it would be really fun to watch.

Especially if it's set in the 80s, I love a good 80s. Oh, 80s, anything. And it's already characters that people are obsessed with. And it's so much drama that. When we start it, when you start the pilot, you're walking into a ton of drama that's already preexisting. You've got this small town, this family that's, these two families that are divided, and we don't really know much about the history of these characters, except the flashbacks.

Even if they're different actors, everyone's already in love with the characters. That's what I mean. So, yes. It's a bit of a ticking clock because they ultimately know what's going to be happening down the line. Yes. Did we just crack a new show? Let's just build a show around, Ali. I'm telling you, let's go out for drinks.

Let's go ahead and cut all of this from the podcast to save it to our future projects. We always say that. She was on the show because she was in my stomach. That's right. And so it'd be so cool for her to do. Oh, man. Okay, let's do it. Okay, fine, fine, fine.

I have a question. At these conventions, when people come up to you, when fans come up to you, is there a scene or a quote that you hear the most? Yes. Life, wait, I have to get it right now. Life sucks. Give me a drink. Life sucks. I want to drink. I think that's what it was. Life sucks. I need a drink. Yeah. Oh, no. Over and over and over again. And people want me to write it. Like, oh, optimistic me. Wow. Life sucks. I need a drink. Barbara Allen Woods. We just interviewed Barry Corbin and he had a fan and get a quote of his tattoo, but it was like a beautiful saying. And I love that Debs is just life sucks. I want to drink. Wow. Mama needs a buzz.

Mom of the Year stuff right there. I know, I'm telling you. That's funny. I don't know any other. I don't think she ever said anything very, like, I don't know. Do you have a favorite? One Tree Hill? Oh, a Deb quote?

No, scene. Oh, Deb scene. Like that you think of fondly or just you remember shooting in the right? I mean, I loved all the stuff that Paul and I had to do together, like, just playing tricks on each other and all the... The War of the Roses. Yeah. I mean, that was my favorite. I also had a great scene with Moira that was fun.

I like comedy. And so to be like the comedic in such a serious show where it's a lot of, you know, talking heads and crying and all that, I think it's the most fun. And I'm not necessarily into being on a sitcom, but I love being like the comedy in a drama. How did the Goldbergs go for you? I haven't seen your episodes yet. Oh, it was so much fun. And this broad comedy. But that's not in front of a studio audience, right?

No. No. A single camera. Yeah. Okay. Have you done? Well, I know you did Seinfeld because I watched Seinfeld, and I'm like, who? Barbara?

Barbara? Oh, my gosh. Yes. Wait, what episode would you do? I played, um, oh, someone going out with Jason Alexander, a date of Jason Alexander. I actually, you want to hear some dirt? Always. All of it, yes.

I used to date someone from that show. You did? Larry David. No, I wish. Michael Richards? Jerry? Jerry. Oh, my gosh.

What is the deal with that relationship? Fun! Oh, I'm weirdly attracted to you right now. Shut up. That's funny. Yeah. Oh, wow. It's such a small world.

Yeah, just met him at a comedy club, and it was before he was Seinfeld, but he did stand up, and even watch the pilot together when he had done the pilot. Like, you want to watch the show? just did a pilot like yeah sure and i think it wasn't picked up to begin with i remember not being picked up and then it got a partial pickup of like five or six episodes yeah okay and they were very very much on shaky ground yeah it was a very different show that first i think it's like a six episode season that's how uncertain the network was about the show wow it goes to show how much network people don't know oh my gosh yeah yeah it's so true was jerry uh a fun hang was he funny in person he's very serious about being funny.

I think a lot of comedians are that way. It's good serious people. Like, not what you would expect. But super sharp and intelligent. So smart. So, so, so smart. And so nice to fans. I mean, we ended up being friends. And then I ended up doing the show after we dated. Oh, funny. Oh, that's great. Yeah. It was good.

So you did sitcoms. You've done sitcoms in your life with a live audience. Yeah. Have you done a lot of theater? Yep. When did you do theater? In Chicago, before I moved out to L.A. And I did some in L.A. too, but it's not like, it's not the scene in L.A.

Yeah, no, it's not. But I did, that's how I started doing theater. And I majored in theater in college and then just a bunch of theater played Cinderella, Joy. Of course you did. Did you do the Rogers and Hammerstein? No. Oh, I was going to say, wait, do you sing? And I didn't know this.

I do you sing? Do, but not like you. Well, I'm just wondering. No one does. No, no, no. Yes. And we talked. Broadway onset.

Oh, okay. Maybe we did. But I just loved. Like, you know, I'm kind of a nerd that way. And I remember being on the carpet during One Tree Hill for certain events. And because One Tree Hill was so music heavy, they would always say, you know, who was your favorite artist? What is your favorite song? And for me, it's just Broadway.

And I always felt kind of nerdy saying that. Like, I don't know, a chorus line is my favorite. Like, is that current? I don't know. Do you see a lot of new shows? It's my favorite thing in the world. Oh, my gosh. Wait, what have you seen lately?

Oh, lately, nothing recently. Oh, really? Nothing recently. Like, you don't go to the Pantages and go catch a show. But I did see Cinderella on Broadway and that was special. Yeah, I mean, whenever, I was going more often when I was in North Carolina because New York is so close. Oh. So.

I wish I had done that. I wish I had just, like, hopped out. Hillary did that all the time. All the time. Yeah. Yeah. I just, that would have been so fun to go out there. Well, now that I live in Nashville, I go off and more.

Yeah. Hour and a half light, guys. I know. Did you do that? Never. I just have, listen, there's one thing I know it is flight time between major cities. Okay, it's an hour and a half, hour 25 here to JFK. Yeah.

Yeah. So you're in like such a new, interesting phase in life as you were talking about at the very beginning of this. And it's just so, it's so lovely as your friend to see you beaming and happy. You've always had a lightness about you, but it feels like there's an authenticity. Like you're not, you know, you don't have to compartmentalize. When you're, when there are things happening in your life that there's a lot of tension in the personal world that can be so difficult. And I tend to compartmentalize anyway when things are going on like that.

And it's really fun to see you in this just super authentic. phase. Yeah, go ahead. Well, when you're, you know, Mike, I've been very focused on my girls. Yeah. Since One Tree Hill, that's really all I was focused on. Yeah. And they started their careers.

And I was insistent that nobody else would be a part of that and be on set with them. And it was just important for me to teach them etiquette and how to treat me. It's just everything. It needed to be me that was there. When you had three kids, I mean, that's hard. A real and a full-time job. Like, this is a real thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was a lot. But now that they're older and they're, you know, when they're 18, they can be, and Allie's about to turn 18. And so kind of like my job is done. I'm still there for them. But it's time for me, which is scary. I'll focus on me a little bit. And then seriously, when you start focusing on yourself and really do love yourself and take care of yourself, things start coming to you. Amazing. You know, like I focused on them. Things came to them. Things came to them. Things came to them you know you have to put energy in the things you're going to benefit from sure yeah um so yeah i just am in a phase of me and things are coming to me and one of those things is really nice what things are coming to you barbara i just met one of those things and i was in awe of like the height and handsomeness the combo of the two caught me so off guard oh yeah i would just i walked in there And I was like, oh, Barbara's here. And holy shit, her boyfriend is so handsome.

And lovely, very warm. But let me tell you, like, the nicest, warmest, most loving, giving person I've ever met in my life. That tracks, though. I'm happy to hear that. And it also tracks because that is very much your lane. Yeah. I didn't know this. Like, somebody told me that he actually is kind of famous, and I did not know.

Like, is this true? He gets recognized way more than I do. He does. Because he's like his presence, too, you know? It's like you can't. Yeah, I mean, if you've seen the show, you know, yeah. He was on cops for our listeners. He was a cop.

He outran the hospital. He was a cop. He was a cop in the army. Before what? What is he? You actually don't know? What? Oh, you don't know.

I don't know. I only just heard, but our listeners may not know. I did just hear this. But I heard like an hour ago, I didn't actually... His daughter was on The Bachelor, and she... What? His daughter was on The Bachelor. Oh, you didn't know.

I didn't know that part, no. Her name's Kelsey. She's beautiful. She's wonderful. All of his kids are. But his daughter was on The Bachelor. And, you know, at the end of The Bachelor, they go to hometown. They introduce...

There's three remaining girls, and they take the Bachelor home to meet their family. And Mark was there. being all cute and dimpley and sweet and like, who's that guy? And the producers. He's just in the background. He's the dad. And I'm watching the show with my girls because we always watch the show. It's like a mindless, sorry, Bachelor, but it was just like a brainless mind.

I'm sorry. No, I think that's probably what people say. But one of my favorite shows of all time, but you can turn your brain off. Yeah, exactly. So, and teaching them what not to do. And we used to count it towards school. The Bachelor. I'm not kidding.

One hour school. Yep. And so kind of interested in him. I'm like, I'll see if he has an Instagram. What's his name? Marlon? Oh, he's an Instagram. Not many followers, but I'm going to DM him. And then, I guess I wasn't the only one who noticed his dimples. So then he was at the final episode of her show. He was in the audience. And I'm watching with Allie and like, oh, there's my boyfriend. The one I de-mmed. I'm like, oh, I want to if you ever responded. He didn't. He didn't respond to me. So then they announced that he's going to be on the Golden Bachelorette as a contestant. Oh. I'm like, they're taking my boyfriend away from me. Then I DM him again. Like, I don't know what I said. It was so corny, whatever I said. Like, you have a cute smile. You're going to go a long way in life or something stupid. And still didn't respond. But then I realized he's not responding because he's already on the show because they take

their phones away. Like, maybe that's why he's not responding. And then, And then he got kicked off and I'm watching every week to see if my boyfriend's going to get kicked off the show. Barbara. And I'm never like, please kick him off. Please kick him off. Please kick him off. My girls are all watching, feeling like we know him, but we don't. And like, oh, he's still on. Oh, she really likes him.

Like, oh, and then he got kicked off. And by the time he got kicked off, he had already responded to me. So we started talking through social media or whatever. And then you go the next step texting. And then you go the next step in your talk. Yeah. And we started talking and it's been nonstop. Barbara.

He's such a good guy. Oh my gosh. Just have to get used to being with good people. Like he's a good guy. How do your daughters feel about that? They love him. Oh, great. Probably more even than I do.

They love him. And they love seeing me happy. Yes. And they love seeing me being treated correctly. Yeah. And he's just so soft-spoken. But when he speaks, it's just, mean something yeah i love people like that yeah i want to be one of those people i'm not there

oh me neither i'm not i talk all the time your daughters are constantly pulling you aside they're like mom do not blow this do not blow this for all of us and you're not like it's the truth i'll get a little unhealthy from time to time and i'll say something but do you think he's mom no he's everything like they just would be so mad at me if i know yeah It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer, because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred years.

You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with very, with very much. Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The thing I've been thinking about lately is that we're professional at instant intimacy. Like we know how to just create instant intimacy. And it's lovely. And it gives us all those dopamine feelings that you want. But we're not taking the time to build the found, like in real life, if we do that, which we're so good at, it's so easy. So it's like, oh, here's my little thing. A trick I can pull out of my hat.

But if you don't take the time to actually build the foundation in real life, then the instant intimacy is just cheap and it goes away cheaply. Like, it's easy to make it go away. It's easy to second guess it and all that stuff. So it's so important to take that time. It was kind of nice because our relationship started on the phone. So all we did was talk. Yeah.

And so if you have that, you know, connection with a guy, like sometimes you jump into things. Maybe you shouldn't so quickly. But we just talked. I mean, we did a lot of phone sex. But I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

Classic babs. I'm kidding. Classic bans. Well, we did. But no, no, no. I'm serious. Like, you get to know something. If that's all you have.

Yeah. Then it's not so much about like feeding your ego then. You know, the instant gratification of like instant intimacy is it feels so good. But is it really about our connection or is it just about the fact that this feels good to me and it's about me. Yes. It can become a substitute for true intimacy. Yes. Yeah. It's a band. Yeah, it can be a crutch.

That's what I was looking for. It can be a crutch as opposed to the phone when all you got is like questions and answers. And he would pause for 10 seconds because that's what he does when he's talking. I've learned. I'm thinking. Let it be. So now what I'm going to say is like, oh. But on the phone, it's like, what's wrong? Yeah. What are you doing? What's wrong? Yeah. He's like, what? I'm just thinking. Like, okay. You're okay?

Because you paused for three seconds. You know? Yeah. It's, he's great. He's great. He cooks. He, like, he takes care of his kids. He travels with you, too.

Like, he loves, he came with you this weekend. Wait, is he here. Is he great with, what? Is he here here here? He's here here. I shook his literal hand an hour. I know, but I know I met him too, but like, is he here in the hallway? Does he want to say hi?

He would, yes. Does he want to say hi? He would make sure that I wanted him to. Okay. And then yes. Does he know that you want him to? Yeah. Bring him in.

See if he's still there. He's like making out with some girl out there. No. Do you feel insecure about that stuff? Like, do you feel a little paranoid that it's like, I will always be insecure in relationships, period. But he's so good. All I need to say is give me some reassurance. Yeah.

He's there. Yeah. That's great. And he just doesn't understand. why I'm insecure with him, but, you know, it's great. He's not, he's recognized and you call him famous, whatever, but from, you know, if you've seen that show, you would know who he is. And he gets recognized a lot, but he's not in Hollywood. Yeah. So it's almost like the best of both worlds. Like, he's gotten a little taste of it. Oh my gosh, she is here. Oh, hi. We're having a total party here

right now, you guys. Thank you all of your. This is Drama Queen's After Dark. It really, it really, And it is after dark. Oh, I just love that name, though. There we go. Drama queen's after dark left. That's right. Let's start brainstorming. We just get deep with people fast.

We should have had you in here when we were saying all the nice things about you. We were just listening to Barbara. I told him that when we first met, all we had was the phone. And so we just had to do a lot of phone sex. And then I was kidding. And then I was kidding. Okay. I was kidding.

But someday we'll do that. That's a fun one to walk into you, right, Mark? Yeah. Shallow into the pool, just jump right into it. Full ambush. We were just talking about how it's like, I don't know if you experienced this because I haven't done any reality TV, but this instant intimacy that as actors we have to, you know, jump in immediately and like you say hi and shake somebody's hand and then rip your

heart open and not to be really close. And then you get into this habit that then it starts to translate into your real life with friends or relationships or whatever and suddenly you find yourself like having tried to skip the the hard part of the building process but actually you're cutting yourself out of something that is so foundational and important um yeah i don't know how i have no idea how what it's like on reality tv if there's some sort of you did one season so this you're not like a reality tv veteran where you're used to yeah no not at all okay okay but there must have there must have been sense of pressure, though, for there to be like sparks and chemistry right away, right?

Yeah, I mean, talk about instant intimacy on a Bachelor show. There's no slow burn allowed on a show like that, right? Yeah, no, not really. I mean, because the whole idea of it, I think, is to hurry up and create a connection, you know? Did that feel inauthentic? Did it feel like easy? I mean, how did that feel? It was very different. I mean, that's, you know, I'm not a fast, kind of person normally, you know, I'm a pretty slow, kind of slow person. I said you take a lot of pauses in between words. I do. I like that.

I pause a lot. Yeah. In fact, I have a t-shirt that's, you know, that spinning wheel of death on a computer. It says, I'm thinking. It was like the best Christmas present. But the thing is, he wasn't attracted to her at all. So that made a, like, that was hard for him because he wasn't, you know, the, the Bachelorette,

I'm just saying this. He wasn't attracted to her at all. So. Shots fired. Yeah. I mean, I'm just guessing, right? Right. Right? He couldn't stand being in the Zemruiser.

I was waiting for you to say, you're right. I mean, you're right. Yeah, yeah. Well done, Mark. Well, done. A little. Is there any sort of, like, coaxing or, like, gentle encouragement from the production staff on, like, hey, if we could find a moment here? Like, were they ever trying to steer you in a direction?

No, I think they, I mean, they need things to kind of grow organically, you know, but sometimes organically isn't quick enough. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, it is, it's, it has to play out. Um, but it is a compressed schedule, you know, so I don't, I don't think they steer it. Um, yeah, that's got to be tough for producers because if every relationship is forced and then every one of them falls apart when the show is over, hmm. It's got to have a bad track record. So they want, they've got to want to have some sort of, some successful relationships come up. out of the show. That said, isn't the track record of those shows horrendous? Actually, I don't know.

Not so well. Oh, okay. Yeah, not so well. I mean, but it's also, you know, I think a big part of it, like I didn't experience what the younger people went through. The younger shows. You know, I was like in this golden bachelorette, you know,

which is I was the youngest person on there, you know. Oh, wow. Okay. So, you know, everybody was... more civilized? I think also the guys... There was no, you know, competitive... I mean, there was competitiveness,

but there wasn't, like, the drama that you saw that, you know, that appear on the younger shows because it wasn't a big jealousy thing. Everyone was comfortable with themselves, you know. I recall catching a clip from the Golden Bachelor and I was so shocked to see the women being kind to each other and, like, cheering each other on them.

Yeah, see, this is what happened. You hit this point in your life where you're like, oh, we're setting examples for our daughters, for young women. We want to actually encourage each other. That's nice to know. But it was such a nice change. Yeah, because it's just, it's hard to watch people constantly undercutting and being crummy to each other. And so, yeah, all of a sudden, they were like, get him, girl, get it. You got this.

I was like, oh, that's a show I want to watch. Oh, that's great. Yeah, you would love it. You should watch it. I should. And these guys were so supportive of each other. And just, they were just like, I mean, And they're still all in touch with each other.

Oh, really? Yeah. That was by far the best experience I've had in my life. Like, in my adult life, I have never shared the emotion felt so safe and secure in an environment to talk about emotion. Like I grew up, my adult life has been military, like oriented. You know, I've worked for the military. And emotion wasn't something that was, um, feelings and emotion wasn't, wasn't talked about. Like, there's a time and a problem.

place and that wasn't the time or the place. Oh, wow, to go from that to a camera in your face. To be in a place where you could sit down and talk with other men that were in the same boat as me, you know, got in on different docks is what I like to say. You know, everybody got in on a different dock. They were divorced or they lost their spouse to, you know, whatever. But they were all single, you know, and we're all in the same boat. So to be able to talk with them about their experiences and, you know, how they related

with their kids, how they, you know, how did they date after, you know, being older? You know, how does that happen? It was incredible. Like, it was, it was an enriching experience for me. Wow. And something amazing came out of it. You've got this message from Barbara and your Instagram. I love it. It's like you may have thought in that moment, oh, I'm not getting the girl, but then you got your phone back and look who slid into the hands, the babs, and you're like, maybe I did, though. And by the way, his daughter won this, well, I say one, that's a horrible thing to say, but was the chosen one. She got a proposal.

So there, um, so her, his daughter is engaged to the bachelor of that season, so they will eventually get married. Congratulations. They're one of the outliers. That's terrific. They're one of the outliers. Yep. Life is so weird. I know.

Like, could you ever have imagined in your, never. I remember when Kelsey left, you know, when she left home to go to filming. She was home the weekend before she left. And, you know, and I was like, you know, Kelsey, you're far braver than I. Because she went to go do this show. God was like, no, dude. Yeah, watch this, right? Yeah, it was pretty incredible.

Wow. Well, I'm so happy for both of you. It's a pleasure to finally meet you because I've been seeing the picture. pictures on Instagram of the two of you and you both look so happy and your daughters look so happy. Yeah. You deserve it. Thank you. You deserve it as well, Mark.

Wow. I'm just basking in the glow. It's fabulous. I wish you all could be here to see. Thanks for listening. Tune in on YouTube, everybody. Yeah. That's right.

All right. How do you want to wrap it up, Joy? With some tequila, really. Okay. I have one more question. Okay, go. Rank your daughters. No.

All right, maybe. You've already done that. Oh, yeah. Here's the best, Babs. You are. You're the best. Thank you. You guys are.

And I enjoy every single episode, and you guys are just killing it. And I'm just like, support, support. Did you see, I responded to something that you're the funniest guy in the world at some point. You didn't, I don't think you responded. Guys just told me. Guys do not respond to my DMs. Wait, wait, wait, wait. That must have been, like, was it a comment on an Instagram post? I think I, no, I think I DM'd you, but let me check.

We're going to check. It was quite the compliment. Like, it was a superlative, for sure. We got to wrap this episode up because I am dying to look into this. Okay, I mean, I'll find it. Because if you did, allegedly you did, I apologize. We're so like, like, I can let a lot of things roll off. I know.

I keep track of that. certain things. It's like, the security of like, oh, I message that person and they did not message me back. Now, I'm not mad at that. I haven't really, but made a decision about how I feel about it. I'm just letting it be. Put it in my memory. I will not forget. I will use it at some point. Well, clearly you forgave and did not forget. Yes. No. I'm not seeing anything in our DMs. I promise you, I'm going to find it and I'll show you. Okay. So you say. And I think I even said, oh my God, he's so funny. Look at this. And I think I showed you. And I said, I'm going to DM him and I did.

Are you a little neurodivergent, too? I don't know. The fact that you can keep track of all the little. We need to enjoy. I know. We're long overdue. We just need. We need time.

I love internet. Don't say anything. Okay, I'm lying. Okay, I'm lying. So she's a wonderful mother, a talented actress and a stone cold liar. Thanks for joining us with Barbara Allen Woods. Barbar Allen Woods, everybody. Ah!

Whoa! Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's O-T-H. Or email us at Drama Queens at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl.

Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. Smart girl, rough girl, fashion, but you'll tell you. up girl, you could sit with us, girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Drama, drama queens, drama queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive.

My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other Native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.