Drama Queens - Making Amends • EP410

Episode Date: January 16, 2023

Lucas receives an unlikely visitor, Nathan and Dan battle guilt, and Brooke and Peyton attempt to patch up their differences. What will everyone learn? The recap of this episode gets into deep feels, as Hilarie, Joy and Sophia admitting that rewatching this one made them all fall in love with the show again.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens.

Guys, welcome back to such an emotional episode, season four, episode 10. Songs to Love and Die By. It originally aired December 6th, 2006. It was kind of the first time we mentioned the holidays also, which was cute, inside of a sad container. Lucas receives an unlikely... Sad view in your containers. He is supposedly dead. You know I love a container.

Haley's life and the life of her unborn child. are threatened when she experiences serious complications with her pregnancy, yet because she got viciously hit on a car. That's not in the synopsis, but it feels important to say. And Nathan wrestles with the guilt and consequences of his dealings with Dante. Dan tries to make amends for Keith's murder, and Peyton and Brooke try to patch up their differences. Woo! I loved this episode.

This is another one of those that made me love our show so much. I don't know. I don't know. There was some shit I didn't like. Well, yes, I mean, absolutely. There's a couple of scenes I would like to set fire to. But the episode itself, if we could have had control and like, because by this point for our friends at home, you've probably heard us talk about how there was always something

that wound up getting cut, like really important parts of scenes, really important scenes because our episodes were always a little overwritten. Massive. And then we would lose stuff that was so good. And, yeah, there were two scenes I would have loved to throw on the cutter room floor and burn for you. How come that?

This made the cut. Jesus, it's almost like it was about somebody's ego. But the episode itself was beautiful. And, like, there was really something about the way that having Keith, having this, you know, world between worlds for Keith and Lucas, created a space to really talk about the things

these kids have been learning over these first four years. And, you know, we talked about how in the last episode, it felt like the pilot was inside of 409. And now here we are in 410. And we're really talking about, like, what we've learned, how we show up, who we want to be. All the seasons, all the episodes. And I thought it was really beautiful. And I thought, I mean, A, what a dream to have Craig Sheffer back. God, Craig and Chad are so good. together in this episode. It's so real. He does such a nice job leading this episode because Chad does vulnerability really well. He does sort of that lost little boy really well. You're endeared to him. I don't know if he was working out or what, but he looked like his skin was

glowing. He looked really great in this episode in particular too. And he just really opened up. Like it was so nice to see him as an actor and Lucas just kind of unzip the chest cavity and open up the heart and be like, okay, here I am. I'm ready to explore all of this, which definitely wasn't easy for Lucas to have to walk through all those things. But I loved it. We needed that. We needed that as a guide. And it feels like we get back to who Lucas was in the beginning. Yeah. You know, we talked a lot like in season one about how the writers swung him into like bad boy. Like being close with girls. Like they did all this stuff that, you know, knowing who our writers were made us all pretty uncomfortable. Like, oh, wow, we didn't even realize what was being modeled for teenage boys.

And now it's like we're coming home. He feels familiar. Yeah. And he's been growing back. into this person, obviously for such a long time, but it's cool that the contrast, it's almost like they realized who he is. It's all the emo stuff. And they let him go back there.

Yeah. It's like emotional stuff is what works so beautiful. Yes. We catch so much shit because we're not like, Lucas, Lucas, Lucas, I get DMs all the time. I got DMs this morning from some chick that was just like, you don't look at my DMs from strangers. You don't talk about Lucas enough. To be clear, Lucas in this phase of bouncing between chicks.

and changing his mind who he's in love with is not ideal. It's not interesting. But if Lucas were vulnerable with these girls, the way he is with his mom and the way he is with Keith, oh my God, he would be just so insatiable. Like, he would be so hot if he could talk to Brooke this way. And that was Brooke's whole thing. She's like, you don't let me in.

I know it's in there somewhere. The audience gets to see you do it with other. people. I don't get to see you do it. It's sexy. Honestly, this kind of made me wish that Lucas and Peyton had not had that kiss at the state championship game, that that moment she walked away, it would have just, because in real life, that happens all the time. You let the big moment pass you by. You don't take the risk in the split second that you have it. And it goes away and you're like, shoot, am I ever going to get that chance again? And I wish that they hadn't had that kiss because this would have been such an, because also in the last episode you were saying it felt like

such a quick switch. Wouldn't it have been so nice to have all of this lead-up that, yeah, like you're saying, every time he looks in Peyton's eyes, he realizes that he made a difference in her life and that they're kind of made for each other and then have him wake up. Now we have something else to look forward to, just building that anticipation. Yeah, like, what if he'd woken up from this and then said, it's you. There has to be confetti, you guys. There has to be confetti. I don't give a shit about timing. Come on. That. That's just to be confetti. Come on. That That's even more romantic. That's, like, devastating that they almost kiss in the confetti, but then the moment

doesn't happen. Bittersweet. He high fives her in that moment where you just like, no. This has been awesome. I am not ready to have this conversation. No, but it is. It's so cool. Like, that would have been great, Joy, you're right.

But I will say, I just, I can't, I can't let go of how much I love seeing. And you said it, seeing that the vulnerability, seeing that the way that you show up matters for people. Yeah. You know, it's such a beautiful lesson. And you see everybody showing up in this episode. In his twisted way, Dan is showing up for his son and trying to pay penance about his guilt. Even though Brooke says, I don't know if we can ever go back, she shows up for Peyton and goes to find her and does work behind the scenes talking to Lucas saying, I need you to take care of my best friend.

And unbeknownst to Brooke, Peyton is showing up for her with Haley. Everyone is really trying to show up. Peyton even shows up just by being vulnerable and asking Brooke, can we be friends again? Peyton, who usually just does everything on her own, she doesn't ask a lot of people for help. Yeah. To see her asking for what she needs was really nice. Mm-hmm. And it's nice that there's an honesty.

It's so clear that these two girls. love each other so much and they're just in a bad place and it's nice to see people who will show up and say I don't know but I will be here. There's so many good lessons in this and Keith offers the space for that and when you think about it in our earlier seasons when Lucas does lose his way and he falls into the popular tropes and all the things as Nathan's become the good guy leaving the popular tropes behind and Lucas is falling into them. It's Keith. Keith, who challenges him and says, who are you? What kind of person do you want to be?

And now, even though he's gone, it's Keith who's saying to Lucas, look who you are. Look at what you being a good person has done. It's so special. It's weird, you know, when we first did the pilot of this show, there was supposed to be this kind of otherworldly element where Whitey is describing everything going on to Camilla, his dead wife. I missed him in this episode, by the way. I know. Yeah, that would have been good to have him in the hospital. Oh, no.

Anyway, sorry, go ahead. So there's always kind of been this haunting thread in our show that they were really trying to get to, you know, and they got there with this episode. You know, it turns out that it's not whitey. It's, you know, Keith is that voice that's in everybody's ear and is watching everything. And part of me wonders if there was some remorse.

on the executive level about being, you know, kind of impulsive about getting rid of Craig. You know, he, like, you don't know what you have till it's gone, and Keith definitely left a void. We needed that salt of the earth paternal voice. And Keith is the one who allows for Lucas to grow into a version of him. Like, you know, the Lucas Keith dynamic is so special. and the Craig and Chad dynamic is so good. And so not only do we as viewers feel the void of Keith, but there's a void for work that Chad gets to do.

Yeah. It's Craig. All of a sudden, that's gone. And you get him back for an episode and you go, oh, my God. It's not to say that it's not so tremendously special to watch Lucas and Karen. Of course it is. But there's something really magical about that. Yeah, we needed him.

that triangle. And, you know, they lopped a side of it off. And it was, it was a loss of we felt for a really long time. Yeah. I agree. I thought it was interesting watching Dan in this episode because it made me think about, it's interesting seeing someone wrestle for their soul. He's made such terrible choices throughout his life and done it in a way where he's clearly built himself in his own mind into a person who is above, I guess, above moral reproach, who also feels that he can get away with a lot of things and life owes him things. And so he's built this pattern of behavior, but he's never done, he's never crossed over the line. Like I think a lot of us look at our lives and we're like,

Well, okay, I may do this and that, but I don't do this or that, you know. I haven't murdered anyone. I'm flawed, but I'm not a sociopath. Right. And there was a couple things that I thought were interesting. One, I heard something this weekend that was, it was inside every seed. I posted it on my Instagram. Inside every seed is an entire forest.

Basically, it's the possibility of, you know, any small thing can grow into an entire thing. So that could be your character development. The good things that you do, it could be lies, gossip, it could be anything. And the little seed that was in Dan that grew into all this forest of horrible behavior. And then now he's crossing over into murderer. And it's like watching him wrestle with the idea that, oh, I'm okay, like dabbling in all these little bad moral things, but that doesn't really matter. And then he's like, maybe I can get away with murder too. He does it.

and now he's in a real legitimate battle for his soul in a way that he never acknowledged before. Sorry if that was long-winded. I thought it was interesting. I don't have a conclusion about it. I just thought it was so interesting to watch. The moment where Nathan says to him, Dad, you didn't kill anyone.

And Dan had to just sit in it. Like, not only did I kill someone, I killed my brother. Yeah. Yeah. But he's such a cool, this is why I love Dan, because even though we love to hate him, there is something so true about the fact that we are all human and we are all capable of wonderful and terrible things. And it's a mistake, I think, to look at ourselves and go, it's okay, I only do these things and not

those things. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like anything can turn into anything else. You have to be careful. Absolutely. And what I loved was in that scene. I wrote it down when Nathan says, you didn't kill anybody.

And Dan says, in many ways, I'm right where I should be. Yes. He's trying to tell Nathan he's at peace with this. And Nathan can't understand because he doesn't know the truth. And it's so, it's riveting to watch James and Paul together in this episode. And it's riveting watching Paul and Craig in that. scene in the jail cell. Yes.

And Craig, there was something like so on fire in his eyes saying those words, you know, as Keith to Dan, I forgive you and knowing that it would eat him alive. And it was like, I actually caught myself holding my breath during the scene. I was like, oh my God, I'm going to pass out because I was just like frozen watching the two of that. It was really, I don't know, as a viewer, it was like very... Well, I liked that little bit of territorial vibe that Keith was putting out where he was like, she's never going to love you, Danny. Like, cool, I've been haunting you. I've been little boy Keith to haunt you for all the other stuff, but now you're coming from my woman who's carrying

my baby. Big boy Keith is here now and I'm not happy and hear my bloody eyeballs, you know. I'm terrifying. I love that. Here are my bloody eyeballs. You're my bloody eyeballs. Yeah, no, he got, like, spooky. He got scary. And so that duality of Ghost Keith, where it's like, I can be the cute little brother that's just, like, kind of irritating, or I could also be, you know, really terrifying. And you're confined to the cell. There's nothing you can do to get away from me right now. Yeah. What I love, too, was the use of our sets in this episode. Well, talk about that. Talk about John Asher because John Asher did such a good job and I said this when we were watching the show and I just feel like I should say it now because we mean it as a compliment like I think we were

all at a bit of a stage you know we were four years in there were like things that we rolled our eyes about and like Asher and Chad were always setting fireworks off and getting people in trouble and we were judging about it well because Asher was so much younger than any other director that came around was he was much more of a peer he was like if you had a slightly older brother in college and and like we loved him but we i don't know that we knew what a good director he was because he was like a prankster because he was a boy he was like chill with us yeah like they were like pranking and we all were like oh my god quit keeping us at work late because you guys were sitting stink bombs off in the stages like and now watching back at this episode

y'all the three of us were just like blown away this really creative the cuts the way that they did these transitions like Nathan you know Dan with his head bowed down in jail and then it perfectly morphs into Nathan with his head bowed at the hospital the way that all of these sets opened into other sets the hospital elevators to the quad like nobody had ever shot our show like this yeah it was so well done so really the moral of the story is in case john Ashra's listening, just please know that we're giving you all of your flowers and we're very impressed. And we'll beach at the bar, John. Shots on us. Man, we should buy you here. He always takes risks. I love that about him as a director. You know, they don't always pay off like every artist. You get on

stage sometimes and you bomb. But if you're taking the risk, at least you know what works and what doesn't work. And we had a lot of directors who came in and just kept playing it safe because they wanted to keep getting more jobs. And there's a certain, you know, you have to keep a consistency of the tone of the show and things like that. I liked that they brought him in for an episode where you could take risks and be creative because they knew that he would. He always takes the risk. They knew they could trust him to do that. And I mean, I kid you not, when that hospital elevator door opened onto the quad, we all gasped. It's like Wizard of Oz. It was so cool. And then whatever set turned into the high school hallway, like everything was just so freaking cool and well done. And

it really did make me, even, you know, not just watching our show for our podcast, but as an actor and as a director, it really made me feel inspired. It was a nice reminder of what's possible. Yeah. Well, there's a subtle thing that happens in your brain when the rules get thrown out and it puts you on a subconscious edge, you know? And so when we see the nurses pass through Peyton's bedroom and it's like, because we made the comment, it was like, the lighting was the same. You know, like nothing was off in Peyton's room. The boys were just kind of being voyers watching Peyton and Brooke have that moment. And then these nurses walk through and that's weird. And we follow the one's head and all of a sudden we're in the

hospital. And really like from those early moments on, we know as an audience that there are no rules that literally anything can happen. And so you're glued to it. Because if you miss it, there's no way to predict what's going to happen. And that's a stuff's, you know, that's fun. That I think everyone from our hair and makeup team to our AD staff, to our camera operators, like everyone got a real kick out of doing something really different. And this is really when, you know, we've been saying it for a while now. Season four is when we started jumping the shark all over the place because it was like we played by the rules before and no one paid attention to us. So if we throw them out, maybe we're that show.

Watch this. Maybe that's who we are now. I don't know. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for the kinds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornellis, who with Brother. Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history.

On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or we're at you get your podcasts. It's really cool to see, you know, not everybody gets to be on a show for as long as we did. And it's really cool to see the risks taken because this risk paid off and was so

emotionally charged and touching and thought provoking. And some of the risks when we would jump the shark were just so dumb. I'm so dumb. We did have a moment like that in this episode, Peyton, at the grave. Guys, the morphing. The morphing. Okay, let's talk about the morp. Well, let's talk about the woman.

Where did you? So you found this woman, you said. She wasn't cast. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, this was one of those cool, like, we live in a small town and Wilmington kind of deals. When we shot at the record store, that was towards the beginning of the episode. and like the beginning of the eight days of our eight days of filming and they hadn't cast this woman to play me yet and so casting had sent a bunch of pictures to John Asher to like look at these people see if they look enough like Hillary and he was going through the pictures on set and I'm looking at them and like some were like oh this isn't a very flattering option okay you're looking at people that are supposed to to look like old you and so we're going through and it's like some are okay some are but like

nothing was really hitting and there was a crowd that had gathered outside and there was this spicy woman like spicy and she i think she actually had like red hair um and she was outside with her husband like wearing go-go boots and a miniskirt and was just being like fucking cool and she's like what's going on here and i was like outside probably smoking or something and i start talking to her and I become fast friends with this woman. And I was like, are you going to be here for a couple days? And she's like, yeah, I'm here for the whole week. And I went inside.

I was like, can this woman be me? And we were the same exact height and we had the same exact eye color. And I hate that they put that wig on her because she was like a super sexy woman. And they put this awful wig on her. But I just had a connection with this lady. And that was fun about having John as a director because it was like, can it be her? And yeah. Why not?

Make it her. And so it was cool. She like came and hung out in the hair and makeup trailer as they dolled her up. And then my body had to morph in or her body morphed into mine. It was. What? Why did they do that? In an episode filled with so many gorgeous transitions.

And by the way, I said it a minute ago when they layered James and Paul over each other and did the transition, it worked. Yep. Why couldn't they just have like done a fade? from a plate shot of her into you, the more, the like full Transformers moment, it was such an emotional scene and it made us all burst out laughing. I, you said it.

You were like, well, that took me out of any experience I was having. Y'all, I cackled. I mean, that was hilarious for me and I did it. Yeah, why didn't they have her bend down to put the flowers in the long black coat? Yeah, and then you stand up. Stand up, you know, in a long black coat. But it said Peyton wears no coats in this episode.

It's clear that I'm freezing. She's freezing. I could have used the coat at the graveyard. That's because our costume designer was gone and we had no, no, somebody just broke. They was like, so it just fell through the cracks. We're coming to get her at the house. First of all, when we leave the state championship, we all have our full cheer uniforms. We have the zip-ups and the pants under our skirt.

But then magically, when I come to you, I have no pants under my miniskirt. you have no sweatshirt and we leave the house and go to the hospital and you don't grab a sweatshirt, a coat, a purse, anything. You're just standing there and your little tank top looking so close. I said, I was like, like, I don't know what happened, but the whole episode for me, Peyton doesn't know what to do with her hands. Like, it is just an exercise and like, where do I put my arms? And there's that moment in the hospital when Brooke and Peyton come in and Nathan's sitting in the lobby and he leaves. And you and I don't know what to do, and we, like, sort of hug, but also not. Well, because it's like, our instinct is to hug each other. And then we're like, oh, wait, we're going to fight. So I'll just awkwardly grab your hands and lean into your body. It worked. I thought it was so realistic and funny.

That's the thing. It was real. But by the way, okay, hold on. As funny as that is, like, we do need to say something because what leads. to that moment between us is not funny at all. It's Nathan literally saying he wished he died in that water. And Joy, I think you said it while we were watching the episode. Like, we are not addressing the trauma that this young man has been put through repeatedly all season. He keeps saying I should have died. I wish I died. Like, this is heavy, heavy stuff. Yeah. Hillary, you brought this

up several episodes ago. It was probably like a couple months ago, but that's, it was when he was, uh, in the race car accident. Yes. And nobody was really, everybody was like, oh, Nathan's going through a hard time. Uh, nobody was naming it. Yeah. And then he does it again here.

And then he does it again, again on the bridge here. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it bothered me that nobody was really. dealing with that. Well, I think also, at this time, I feel like there was always like, like there was something feminine about teenage suicide, you know, like no one ever would think that like the jock, the, you know, the captain of the basketball team or whatever would be suicidal. But Nathan says over and over and over again, guys, I want to die, guys, I want

to die. Haley left me. I'm a mess. My parents are a mess. I'm going to take all these drugs. I'm going to like this kid has been on suicide watch since season one and no one is calling CPS. No one's calling a school counselor. No one's doing anything. They're just like, well, you know. No one's taking him to therapy. Nothing. And to your point, nobody's naming it. And I think at the time, it was such a big deal to even see a boy on TV talk about his feelings. Yeah. People were like, wow. Oh, and nobody was taking it the next step farther and saying, this is a cry for help. What this person is saying is so.

Nathan was really the one that needed the journey to see what his impact in life has been and why he matters. I mean, if we're really going to break it down, that is probably what was needed. But I like the way they did it. I just, like, I'm looking at this now going, gosh, I wish there was some way Nathan could have been incorporated into that or. Maybe that's his journey over the next few episodes, I'm not sure. He had that nice episode a few back when Chad wasn't around, like when Lucas wasn't on the basketball team and the whole episode focused on Nathan. And he was like in a winning moment and it was fun to watch.

It was fun to watch him like man up. But they take him through these really manic highs and lows that are exhausting as an adult. You know, the idea that it's a kid that's navigating this kind of. kind of like the huge difference between the two feelings. You know, this kid grew up in an unstable, abusive household. It would track. Yeah. His dad was obsessed with the highs.

Yeah. And when it wasn't high. Yeah. We're going to need to have a therapist on the show at some point, just to diagnose all the characters. Everybody gets diagnosed. But actually, it didn't happen in the nine years of the show. We should do it just once.

For our friends at home, we would imagine. that there are some clinical psychologists, some therapists among you. If you are, will you send us a DM at our show Instagram? Because we really do want to have somebody come and talk about where we just weren't going in 06 because we're ready to go now. We love talking about therapy. Something that's written, an issue that's raised in this episode that I don't know that it's really answered, but it is an interesting topic because Lucas brings it up. of what's the point of being a good person of bad things happen and um it seems really applicable in our society today too the idea is that if you if you do the right things if you kind of

check the boxes and behaves the right certain ways that you'll earn the good things that happen in life like good good things will happen for you if you do good things um and it's interesting to see a teenager faced with the reality that there really are not any guarantees in life and you can be a wonderful person and still have lots of horrible things happen to you all the time and you can be a really bad person and have lots of, you know, circumstantially great things happen to you all the time. I mean, there's plenty of people that we look at in the world and we're like, how does that person have so many quote unquote good things in their world when we know what a horrible person they are or you know vice versa the other way around you know i mean

we have plenty of friends and people that we love and i'm sure i felt this way before in my life i'm sure you guys have too where you're like i'm doing like aren't i good person aren't i like haven't i earned like to not have all these horrible things just flooding at me over and over um it's interesting to see a teenager wrestle with that that there's no guarantees yeah and i think you know We got that amazing, you know, thread on Twitter from that writer who's been talking about the journey of this show. You know, Joy, I know you're off, but he wrote this really beautiful article about the things we shared.

And I know we talked last week about how it was so surprising to us that that was news because all the grownups in the room told us we were being babies and it wasn't a big deal. And now you hear the world go, wow, that's really fucked up. That's a really big deal. and you go, cool, so we were being gaslighted in 2006 when the word didn't exist. Great. Had a hunch, but everyone told us we were crazy. And, you know, he wrote about how there are people who get upset that we talk about the experiences and the facts and like what didn't work and what was happening behind the scenes. And, you know, in some of the responses that Hill and I sent since we're still on Twitter, you know, it all boils down for me to. to thank you for seeing it and for being willing to really lean into that truth.

And that's what we're talking about in this episode is like the good and the bad is inextricably linked. And we were talking to this writer about how look, for everyone at home, they have this 187 hours, it's 187 episodes that we made over the course of nine years. We did it for a decade of our lives, all day, every day, 17 hours a day. It's so much more complicated. The highs and the lows and the lows and the great moments. that we're mixed in with some really terrible ones that, by the way, are in this episode.

Like, it's, that's real life. And I worry sometimes that the detriment of what we see, you know, the clean episode of television or what you're referencing Joy, when you look at, you know, what somebody's doing in life on Instagram and it looks really perfect. Like, it's all the edited moment versus, you know, it's the one hour, the 43 minute episode versus the eight, 17-hour days it took to make it. Like, we see these compressions and we don't get the whole story. And maybe that's why we love episodes like this so much because they go deeper into what's going on underneath.

They get deeper into the idea of a whole story for people, for friends who say, I love you, but I can't be around you. I'll always be here for you, but I don't know if I'll ever feel the same way about you. Like, that's so much more real than what we get presented a lot of the times. And maybe that's the reason that episodes like this hit for us. And maybe it's the reason that some of these podcast episodes like trigger like a relief and a truth for a lot of people because most people don't have these conversations publicly. Have you guys had a, you know, that's a good point about Brooke and Peyton, you know, saying maybe I don't know if I can have the same relationship with you as I did before and stuff. that's a conversation that definitely happens a lot in romantic relationships and interactions.

Have you guys had complicated friendships like that where you've had to have conversations like that before? I feel like it just doesn't happen a lot in friendships. People just kind of like fade. They just are like, I don't have the energy and they just fade out. I have. I've drawn boundaries, yeah. I mean, I've broken up with friends.

But do you have like the conversations and you really like wrestling? it out with them or is it just sort of like there's an overtime yeah I mean I had a friend that was disinvited to my wedding ended up coming last minute and because you guys talked about it

we talked about it and then decided even after that like it's not going to work it's just not going to work and we tried we've been hanging on to something that doesn't exist anymore and I don't like your ethics you don't like mine we're good

you know and it's a much longer process than we can present in a one-hour TV show especially if you're both really trying you know but they're they're difficult they're really difficult maybe in high school that happens more than adulthood I'm trying to think if because I feel like yeah in high school your emotions run hot I don't think I had it so much in high school like I went to school with 55 girls yeah my entire class I would have had it once a week in that environment I know you're done you're done like you couldn't really have friend breakups because your environment was so small yeah what was more what became more true for me was and I and I find this in cycles like I've

definitely had this in romantic cycles like I remember being young and being in a really terrible relationship and then like in my like about 10 years later in my early 30s I was like oh I see what the universe is doing you know when you get presented with a challenge to see you learned a lesson. That's what this is. I didn't learn it fast enough, but I see it and that's growth. So says therapy, great. Cycles. And I had a similar kind of a thing, you know, honestly and how lucky we were that we had each other, but like, guys, we got on TV really young. And I had friends from high school who were thrilled, you know, vocally, but emotionally very pissed. Who wanted me to, take us to the big party or to the event or get us into this thing or get us tickets to this

concert. So I would like go home to see my friends from home on the weekends, but then it would turn into this thing of like, oh, well, you just think. And I'm like, I'm confused. Do you want me to call the people to go to the thing that you said you wanted to go to? Or does that make me an asshole? Like, what is this conversation we're having? And there was a gap of, you know, I'd fly home on a Saturday. We'd all go out and do something fun. I'd come back to you guys on Sunday. And then by Thursday, I'd get a call from a friend at home that everyone was pissed at me. And I was like, I'm not even there. What sucks?

Happening. Yeah. And what I had to realize in my mid-20s was that, you know, like Margot Robbie talked about this. And in Australia, I guess they call it tall poppy syndrome. But like everyone's happy with your success until your, your poppy gets taller than theirs. And then they want to cut you down. She gave this great interview about it.

I'm not doing as good a job. But I began to feel that, that it was like, we want, we want you to do well, but not in a way that makes us feel like we're not doing well. And then I went through a version of that again in my mid-30s with some friends where I had a girlfriend who I, I mean, was like a sister to me who I bet over backwards for who like I would bring on jobs with me and like not take a fee so I could offer my fee to her to cover like a thing she was going through. like big stuff that I was like I'm happy to do this I'm in a position where I can do this like sure let's go be out there together and it took me some time to realize that that was like incredibly toxic that I was being taken advantage of that I would take her on jobs with me and then I found out she was trying to deal with like the people I was working for behind my back and and like literally took a job out of my hands that's horrible by the way but did you like

confront her and have a conversation and like really hash it out or was it just like you know what it was to me was I we worked on having a conversation for a while and we would schedule something and then she kept bailing and I was like I don't know if you're just ashamed of your behavior or if this is not a priority to you but I'm done like I've I've used up the runway and what I see the writing on the wall for me and I wrote her letter and I wrote it all out. And I was like, this is what has been happening. And when it's written out, it's pretty painful to read. And I have to own that when I love someone,

I will often not look at their negative qualities. And I've played a part in this. I've allowed you to treat me this way. But I'm not going to do it anymore. And then it took months. And then I got this like long apology letter back that essentially placed blame on everyone about her. And I was like, okay, cool.

I just don't have the bandwidth for it. Like, I've done the work. where I can be like, yeah, I really didn't like that I behaved this way. And I reacted to you this way because of this and, you know, whatever. It's not easy. But I was like, I'm just not, I'm not here for like the excuses. And so it's interesting. I don't know.

I think it can be easier to maybe stay in a romantic relationship that's not good for you because you love someone. But honestly, I can see where I've done that in friendships too, because I want to believe in the people who, who've, like, gotten into my heart. And what I've had to come to at this stage in my life is, yeah, there's some people who burned me, but, like, the love I have with the people who love me is so special. Like, I look at our friendships.

I look at, you know, I look at my best friends at home in L.A., like, we would do anything for each other, like anything. And I wouldn't want to have loved the wrong people less if it meant missing out on the love I have for the right people like this. But yeah, it blows when you, like, really get there. And it's wild to see high school girls modeling on our show this conversation. I'm going to show up for you. And I don't know if I'm ever going to feel the same way about you.

I'm like, damn, imagine if we had known how to do that when we were 16. Oh, my gosh. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia. And on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to XVI. explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional.

It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for the kind of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world,

influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. that seemed like it was yesterday. Before we even watched the episode, I was like, do you remember the bridge? We're under the bridge. Yeah, you did. The bridge, the bridge, the bridge. Yeah, I just, I have such strong memories of that because it was kind of a pain in the ass to get on that ledge. Like, we had to, like, climb a ladder and some shit, and it was really cold. And you had to, like, try to not fall over the front and break your neck. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, don't fall in. But what I liked about it is that Brooke shows up and starts talking about everyone else.

It's like, Ellie, your mom, Haley, Lucas. Let's talk about anything other. than the elephant in the room and Peyton just turns around and looks at her in the eyes and it's like you. The loss of you is killing me and centers Brooke and so Peyton is like a shit friend a lot of the time but she centers Brooke in a way that I know I wish I had friends that would do that sometimes you know where it's like okay cool we can we can talk about all of the noise we can talk about all of the peripheral things just to have a conversation that's easy or like we could cut to the quick and let's do that and you know yeah i've Peyton loves brook like so much it's so good but do you feel like so when you think about that because you're identifying

something in that conversation that that ability to cut to the quick and tell the truth like when you've gone through a friend breakup because i do feel like that's part of your question right joy is like Do you, have you grown into being able to do that to just say the thing and do it? Or do you let it fizzle like, you know, because it's too hard? I usually say the thing, throw a grenade, and then disappear. Yeah. So I'll say it. But then I'll make it hurt and then I have to turn into mess.

Wow. So essentially we're bringing it back to Asher and Chad and there's smoke bombs. Yes, yes. There's going to get a little bit of theatrics, girls. Come on. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. Once you've been burned, like, when you've been betrayed in that sort of a way where the rug has been pulled out from under you, yeah, you have a very strong alarm bell that goes off around dishonesty.

Yeah. You know, like, if you lie to my face, you could tell me you need help. Like, I don't know. I know the adage is like burying a body. and then I'm like, that might be a dark example. Like, I think it's funny. And then I'm like, you know what I mean? When people ask that question, like, if you had to bury a body, who would you call?

Right, right. I'm, whatever the crisis is saying. Guys, I've got a bobcat. I've got the farm equipment for it, you know? Like, trauma queens, murder clean up. I don't know, man. Well, my betrayal is on screen in this episode. Fucking.

Oh, baby. Want to talk about abusive relationships. I didn't know if we were going to talk about it. Okay. Let's just get it out of the way. Honestly, I'm like white hot, like my palms would feel gross. Our boss cast himself in our show, and he cast himself in a role that I would have to interact with as this like sage, you know, wise man that runs the record store. And first of all, he's a terrible, fucking actor.

He's a terrible looking man. And to be super petty, it was a misdemeanor. opportunity. Because as you guys said, we could have had somebody awesome come in and play that part. Sophia, you said it, like a musician. How cool would it have been to have like a... I want to jump in here for a minute because, you know, there's going to be some troll who says that you're criticizing him because you, of your personal experience, that our boss was such a bad actor. He's not a bad. He's not an actor. And so Hillary, you are carrying this beautiful scene. You're looking for something as a kid, like, and music is such a healer.

It really, really is. Like, you want to get something new and get in your car and turn it up and scream and cry and have the experience that only a good record can give you. And you are carrying this scene as Peyton searching for something to unlock the feelings she has, like, brimming out of her. Yeah, you find something else to articulate what you're feeling. Yeah, and you're opposite, this loser who can't act. Who, like, for people at home and any of our friends who, you know, are also in this industry,

you know what it's like when you go to an audition and the casting director is like out for the day. So they have some assistant sitting opposite you who you're supposed to do this like intensely emotional scene with. And the person's reading the paper going, well, I thought that that was actually a very bad idea. And you're like, somebody help me. Or even worse, someone who's actually trying to act, but they're really terrible at it, which is more distracting. Well, maybe that's what was happening in our episode. Like, there's no reaction. Like, even when James breaks the record, there's no, like, startle.

There's nobody home. And you guys are doing these big, there's nobody home. And you're doing these big scenes. And the only thing that this creepy older man says to you is, do you remember what you were looking for the first time you came in here? Why does a grown man remember what a teenage girl was looking for 10 years ago at a record? Right. Like, he's been there the whole time. He's the guy that we always go to to have a conversation with about art.

The whole thing was most. He also had just given me that iPod in real life that he had re-loaded with a hundred songs. And they were all like kind of, there were songs like Little Miss Can't Be Wrong and like songs to kind of put me in my place a little bit or just kind of, they were, they all had a code. They all had a message. And so to then have that kind of meta feeling of it being put in the show, I just feel like I was being beat over the head with this. Like, okay, I get it. Can I go home now? You had to suck it up and just stand there.

And I felt so bad for you watching that. Like, knowing that you're, again, we're so young. And to have that put on your shoulders of stand there and do this scene and be a professional with this person who's been actively abusing you. That's not okay. Hey. Well, we made the best of it. Anyway. I bet I was real perky on set that day.

I bet I was a trooper. You did make the best bit, but I think what is hard and what's important for folks at home to remember, because some of what feels obvious to us because we lived it for so long, isn't always to other people. But, you know, there's 200 people on a set. There's a lot of people whose livelihoods and families depend on that job. And our job, no matter what. is happening in our lives or how hard it is or traumatizing what kind of loss you're going through

somebody in your family could have died and it doesn't matter you have to get up and show up at exactly the time you're supposed to be there there are no sick days like it's it's just not like that and you had to come in and you had to do your job regardless of all of the ways that you were being hoped and prodded by that adult. And you not only came in, I mean, we watched you do it for years. You came in and entertained to the crew and made everybody feel happy. And you acted your face off in that scene. And again, the person you were acting opposite across from had, there was nobody home.

Nothing was going on. We weren't being given any inspiration. I wanted to trade places with joy in this episode. I see Joy with that head bandage laid up. She's got one foot up. I'm like, God dang. How do I get that job? But also, how many times did you take a nap in the hospital again?

The whole time. The whole time. I don't know why. We were joking about, I don't know why I was being punished for something, which is why I ended up with, you know, not able to really be in the episode, but also was in crutches for the rest of season, I think. But yeah, no, I mean, it was nice to have a break, I guess.

I was like, all right, I'll take it. I didn't really. I'm getting paid. Didn't really get to me. I was like, fine. Yeah, pay me to sleep here on set. That sounds great. If you notice, Daniel's not in the episode.

She kept getting taken away from her. Peyton is, I don't know, I had to deal with you dip shit. You got violently hit by a car. Like, if they thought that violence against women was their ticket to the male audience, they have doubled down on that Haley hit. And at least you got to be got to be goth, Sophia. That was so fun. Oh my gosh, goth, Brooke.

I need to see more goth, Sophia. Like, please, please do a red carpet goth look one day. I really want to see that. I would love to. Honestly, it's like, you know when you see, and I know it's become like a weird social media frenzy gross thing, but like the iconography of what the Metball is and like the exhibitions of historical fashion and and like before it became like an Instagram event, I just find it like I have found it to be so incredibly like like the fact that you that you can have

an alive museum is the coolest thing in the world to me. Oh yeah. And and you know, sometimes they do those. Like there was a there was a year. I don't remember what the theme was, but like some I don't even remember who he was. Some guy went in like a full like metal sleeve and glove that looked like something that, you know, from from the Catherine the Great era like warrior armor, you know, I find that all to be so cool. And I'm like, man, if there was a theme at something like that. Like if the Metball theme was hot topic. Hot topic at the Met, there it is. That's what I want. I want like all the piercings, all the things. I remember gluing. I had to glue all of Brooks

piercings on on like the lips and nose and the bridge and the and it was so fun and what we tried to go for with the with the wig was to not have it be so overt but when you find out at the end of the episode that brook has gone dark she's never forgiven herself she blames herself in this alternate reality for peyton's death we wanted goth brook to be a reference to pangel like a super long wig that was, you know, we didn't do the gray. We did all black. We did the fishnets. And then we did the eye makeup. We actually looked at old imagery. See, this is where like the history of fashion is cool to me. We looked at old imagery of sad clowns, like creepy old French clown. What? We did that like sad clown thing that we would do in red, but we did it in black

for the eyes. So it looked like she had these like gothic tears. Oh, yeah. And then a little Like harlequin look, yeah. It was really, really, yeah. It was really fun. I also, but I love that our writer's room knows so little about being goth, that they were like, oh, yeah, one tragedy will do it. Like, God. You thought the same thing.

It's something that is, like, put in you as a little seed when you're seven years old, and it blooms, like, in middle school. That's your forest. That's your goth forest. Goth forest is not an overnight growth, God. Well, it's also funny to me. Because, like, I have some friends. Like, you, I mean, you guys know Kenny.

Yeah. And friends at home. My best friend, Kenny is, like, deeply entrenched in the punk scene, has been in, like, was in a punk band that played in sewers in high school. Oh, that's so hot. Kenny's caller ID on my phone is him with, like, a 12-inch mohawk. Yeah, it's like punk and goth and all of those, like, very specific avenues. Like, it's not a one-hit wonder.

But whatever, I had to do it. And so I've really wanted to meet it. Yeah. Yeah, and you made it cool. Yeah, and we wanted to have this reference to, like, dark Peyton in dark brook. Yeah. We should have just stayed dark, honestly. That would have been so fun.

Do you get more than one line next episode, Joy? Do you get to say more than... I don't know. I mean, Haley's parents never show up still. Like, she's in a... What does it take for this girl's parents to show up in her life? Maybe they're hanging out with my dad, just talking about all those kids, Back in Tree Hill, getting almost raped and almost killed. Yeah.

Boy, they really got to learn how to look out for themselves. You know what I mean? Like, we got to teach these kids' personal responsibility. They got to toughen up. They're like, they all need to go to therapy. That's what needs to be happening. Y'all need to come home. They need to have parents in their house, and they need to go to counseling.

I have two honorable mentions for this, for this episode, which is James showing up with his amazing emotional work. I thought he did such a great job. Yeah. And the soundtrack, I thought, was really, really good in this one, too. There were some, I would love to just have a soundtrack of this episode because it seemed like every song I was into. Yeah.

I just wanted to share my opinion about those two things. And you know what? In the honorable mention category, we need to talk about our camera crew. Yes. Because what they were able to do with the director's vision was incredible. And we all talked about at the end when, you know, when they begin to do the, the zoom in on Lucas still unconscious in the hospital. And then you go back into Tree Hill High with Lucas and Keith. And Keith keeps moving around. Like he's popping all over the place.

And that shot does not cut. It's this beautiful rotating steady cam shot. That's like choreographing ballet. It is so complex to do that with a whole crew and a bunch of actors and the camera operator wearing the steady cam rig, it's a major undertaking. And they did it so beautifully. Yeah. It was really great. So honorable mention there as well. Well, Keith just repeating himself.

He repeats himself to Dan. I forgive you. I forgive you. I forgive you. And that's going to be the thing that rings in Dan's ear for a while. And then he repeats to Luke over and over again. Open your eyes. Open your eyes.

Open your eyes. And I don't know if you guys have ever been visited by a dead friend in a dream, but I have. And it, I cried in this episode, not because I was affected by the episode, but because my visceral memory of that dream with my friend is still so like, it's so tangible. It's so real that anything can trigger it, you know? An episode of a teen drama can trigger it and it's like I can smell my friend. And when it happens, it's in your bone, like it's in your bone and it stays forever. The idea that Luke is going to wake up and have that, have that static electricity cling on him from Keith in the visit. I'm excited to see like where that goes.

The look of recognition in his eyes when he opened his eyes in that hospital bed, not just of, it was so, oh, he did such a great job with that. He opened his eyes and it was like you knew exactly in that moment that he knew. He knew he knew something. He knew Dan killed. He knew it. It was like he had the information. Chad did a good job. It was really, really great.

And you know what else I loved? Because you brought it up in the one that I actually wrote down, the thing that Keith keeps saying is it's okay, just breathe. It's going to be okay. And you learn that that's what he said to Nathan in the water and that that's what he's saying to Lucas. And he says it to Nathan and he says it to Karen. And you realize when he says, when Luke is almost in tears saying, I don't want you to go.

And he says, I'm with you every day. You realize Keith is with these people, and that's what did it for me. I like, I could cry right now. That's what brought me back to my own experience, like waking up in tears from a dream or an in-between place like this. A visit. And you go, oh, like, I feel it on the insides of my bones. It was really beautiful. That's awesome.

We all need a visit. It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer, because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls, became, the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges,

we explore her story along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, we have a listener question from Nicole, who says so many of the Rivercourt boys have nicknames. We've got mouth, junk, skills, Fergie.

Does Lucas have a Rivercourt nickname? I don't believe so, but if he did, what would it be? That's like an excellent point. You think pretty boy? Totally, be pretty boy. I feel like, like, Skills has called him all sorts of manner of things. But at this moment... I can't recall any of them.

I would use the nickname from the Sandlot, Squintz. Because we always teased, we always tease Chad about kind of that blue steel broody look. And Squintz is my favorite Sandlot character. Well, that's why they started calling him Broody. Broody. Remember, they started calling me Cheery and you Broody? Or him, Broody? Was it me, cheery or you,

wait, I can't remember now. I've never been cheery in my life. So it was definitely. I was like, wait, was that like a sarcastic thing that they said to Peyton about cheating? I'm going to start calling you that, Hillary. You cheery? Hi, cheery.

No, but that's why. Like, one of the writers, you know, put that in an episode and they started calling Lucas Broody. But squintz is funny. Squints and skills. That's funny. Squins and skills. I like it.

And Squints feels more like mouth junk. Like, it's more of a. It's mocking. Yeah. Yeah. You nailed it. Good one. Well done.

Wait, you guys, thank you so much for joining us for this one. What a great episode. If you didn't watch it and you're just kind of listening to our podcast because you like hearing our voices in your car or your living room. Sorry. Thank you. But also we recommend going back to watch this one and the last one. They're really special ones. These are really powerful.

For sure. Ladies, do we want to spin the wheel? I would like to spin the wheel. Spins a wheel. Honestly, I'm feeling so email that I was like. like, okay, I love you guys. I'll see you next week. You guys, I'm so emo.

I just sat on my phone last night and watched my chemical romance music videos. So this episode came at the right time. Oh my God, I love it. Most likely to host their own TV talk show. Erica Marsh. Well, maybe, actually, maybe it's not Erica Marsh. Maybe it's Catherine Bayless and a different character. Wait, but didn't DeNeil or Dan have a talk show after I left?

Yeah. Yeah, he was like a Tony Robbins. Oh, that's so dark. I can't wait. I know. Right? Yeah. Interesting.

But we've all. I think Catherine Bayless would totally host her on TV show and she'd be great at it. Yeah. She's a party, man. I want to see that right now. Mm-hmm. Just like Southern stuff with Catherine would be my favorite show. She just do fun stuff.

Like, look these flowers, y'all. done yeah why why doesn't she have a podcast at least yeah I find it'd be like designing women but real yeah I would love that I don't know guys I I love a talk show like I just think they're the most fun getting to I mean that's why I started my podcast like back in 2019 I was like I just want to talk to people every day what a cool thing and like now we get to do it I don't know that might be like a later a later in life thing that I just want to do. I can see that happening. I'm into it.

What character, though? What character would do this? I mean, I know Paul, well, Dan did it. So it feels like the obvious answer. But yeah, I could totally, I guess maybe now that you've said it, like I could see Erica Marsh being the like local news, you know, in the morning. She would just be so cute. Also like Erica and Mouth being like P&A.

gangers together. Oh, M.G. Yes, Erica Marsh and Mouth hosting Morning Television. I live for this. Wake up, Tree Hill. Wake up, Tree Hill. Good morning. Morning.

Dying. I love it. What do we have next week? Yeah, next episode, season four, episode 11, everything in its right place. Wow, finally not a title. That's creepy. We earned it, girls. Ominous.

Are we finding our happy again? Happy place. That feels fun. Everyone's out of their coma. We did it. Yay. Everybody lives. You get a life and you get a life.

That's fucked up. Okay. Like Oprah. A life for you. What a life for you. I love you. Bye. Hey, thanks for listening.

Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's O-T-H. Or email us at Drama Queen's at I. heartradio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens.

We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. Smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you're tough girl, you could sit with us girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. It may look different, but Native culture is alive.

Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Thank you.