Drama Queens - Our Favorite Things • EP302

Episode Date: June 6, 2022

Are you a Carrie, Miranda, Samantha or Charlotte?!  This is still OTH...don't worry...but, is Brooke all of them!? The more Haley finds herself and her confidence, the more Nathan can't seem to deal! Joy can relate. And then, Peyton at the party. Hilarie has a FAB behind-the-scenes story about her DJ booth at that beach bonfire.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. You could dream a smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl.

Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Hi, welcome back to Drama Queens, everybody. We are into season three. Love it. Love it. I love it, too. I love everything about the wardrobe's good. The acting's good. The storylines are good.

The dialogue is on point. The hair. It's so good. I'm loving it. Okay, this one's episode two. So it's from the edge of the deep green sea, aired date October 12th, 2005. The synopsis here is that it's the end of summer party,

the famous end of summer party on the beach. Nathan comes home from high flyers, but he doesn't tell Haley, and he still doesn't know where he stands on their marriage. E, Lucas makes a convincing statement to Brooke. And Peyton finds out, Ellie is using drugs again, or still, Dan thinks he realizes who left him in the fire.

Dan plays detective. This is a great episode. Tim is back. Peyton's the worst DJ ever. We have some great stuff with Kevin Kildner. It's great. Let's go. I love this episode.

I loved it. People ask all the time, like, what's your favorite episode you guys have ever done? And I never think of this one. Why don't I ever think of this one? Because it was a long time ago. It's impossible to remember all of them. But that's what's so great about watching these shows back is being able to remember. So now we've got some answers for people.

It's like it's reconnecting memories. And there's so much sense memory in this. Yeah. We all, we all knew Haley's outfit was coming. I knew the beach bonfire was this big moment. We were so excited when the episode started. Oh, my God, the doors. The doors.

And then I didn't even know I lit the bonfire, you guys. Like, of all the things I remembered about this episode, I was like, wait, it's me? I did. So it's crazy. It's like we're remembering our. favorite things and then genuinely finding all the things we forgot we had discoveries this episode first of all i noticed when like brook and lucas are kissing in the house or in the apartment and on the couch haley walks in and she's like making all these snide comments i'm like oh my god

it's joy like that's joy they just decided they're like we're just going to script haley as joy now And these, like, zingers are just flying off, and it's such good writing for you in this episode, Joy, because you go from being, like, you know, the funny one-liner friend to having to do some real heavy lifting with the Nathan, like, the deep Nathan talk and, like, chasing him the entire episode. I think I'm chasing him for longer than this episode. I think this keeps going for a while, and it's really hard to watch. They're making you pay. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Hillary, when you looked at joy in that scene in the end and you go, well, you can't blame him or whatever you say. I was like, oh, God, it hurts to be on the receiving end of that anger.

But it's interesting to see and you start to realize it watching the episode and then, you know, you realize you're on the same page as the writers when Haley and Lucas literally wind up standing together. Yeah. They're having a similar experience, trying to earn back the last. love of the people they've hurt. And it's so beautiful to watch the parallels because everyone in a way is trying to figure out how to reclaim that intimate territory. Even Peyton and Ellie. Yeah. Ellie's trying to get back in. And it, God, the episode is just really well done. Kevin Dowling. I loved his shots, loved his transitions. He, you know what's great. Some of my favorite things about good directors is that you don't feel the direction. There's a difference

between somebody who's maybe new or, I guess new or season doesn't really necessarily make a difference. It's more someone who knows how to get out of the way. They're just showing you the story without trying to show off like fancy camera moves or, you know, you can, the mark, one of the marks of a really good director is someone who can do the fancy stuff without the audience noticing that it's being done. Yeah. And I felt a lot of that. Well, just the shot from Dan's fire to Sophia holding the torch at the beach party was masterful.

Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, I thought so, too. I really liked it. Yeah, it was a lot of beautiful camera work, but it fits so well the transitions, the movement. It was in flow. And so even the shots that were fancy didn't jump out at you because you were on a ride. Fancy. These shots are fancy. These shots are so fancy. Fancy, you guys.

I like a fancy shot. Okay, I want to start talking a little bit about the Peyton and her dad and Larry relationship. I just loved Kevin Kielner in this episode. I love him more and more every time we see him. And, you know, as much as we loved Thomas, you know, we have the situation that we have. And I'm so grateful that we got Kevin Kielner because, Because he's such a strong actor, but he also brings this really, what's the word I'm looking for? He brings this dad energy that's like the dad you want. He's protective. He's showing up. He's so loving and engaged, but he doesn't take any shit. And it's very grounded.

Yeah. Like Kevin Kilner built an intimacy with you that really looks like a father and a daughter. It doesn't look like a guy playing. a dad. He feels like your dad. And you, what I love seeing about you and your scenes with him, Hillary, is that because Peyton finally has a real parental figure, you don't have to act like the grown-up in the room. We see Peyton as a teenage girl who is hurt and scared and angsty and breaking shit because she doesn't know where to put her feelings. Yeah. It's like you look so young because you've got a real dad to play off of.

hate watching TV shows where parents are just all shucks and super cutesy with the kids. Because it sets up a false expectation. When I see it on TV, when my kids are watching TV, I'm like, bullshit. This is bullshit. Yeah. You know, that's not love. Also, when the kids are super disrespectful to their parents are throwing a fit or having a heart. Even, I wouldn't say Peyton was throwing a fit, but she was going through a rough moment. But like, the parents in a lot of these shows are like, oh, well, I guess I'll get out of the way and let you have, like, to have a parent that turns around and shows up and says, I care enough about you to acknowledge the fact that you are acting like this, that you're being disrespectful, that you're misbehaving, you know, I love you.

And you have to look at the bigger picture besides just what you see in front of you right now. We need parents like that. Yeah. Tantrum is a part of the human experience, whether you're an infant or you're a teenager and you're acting out or you're an adult and you're still really. relying on the same coping mechanisms you use as a child. Like, we all tantrum. I have been in tantrum in the last week just because I'm like, this isn't going my way.

And it is so important for the people that love you to be able to show up and communicate clearly with you. And Larry's doing that. And Kevin Kielner so quickly earned my respect because he was like a New York guy. He was like a theater actor and he had these chops and just like immediately put me on my heels and he was like, watch what I can do. However, the thing we all talked about while watching this was I cannot separate him from Greenberg right now. Like, it has ruined any Jake crush that I had because I am seeing Dad Larry. I'm just like, oh no, they're the same person. And the whole time

I'm watching Larry reprimand Peyton and be like, don't you dare, like, question the judgments that we made. You don't know Ellie. She's a drug addict. She's dangerous. My job is to protect you. That woman is a threat. All I can do is hear Jake talking to 16, 17-year-old Jenny being like, you don't know what I know about your mother. You need to try.

Do you know what I mean? Like, yes. And I think Kevin Kilner, when we filmed this, is very close in age to how Greenberg is now. And just the similarities are. It's wild. And, you know, I love that they gave him. that moment with you of saying one day you're going to be a grown up and you're not going to have all the answers either. Yeah. Because we do, especially when we're young and we don't know

yet that our parents are just people trying to figure it out. We lionize them. We assume they know everything. We look to them like we did when we were little. Like you keep me alive. Yeah. And then as you get you keep me alive. You must know everything. And then, wow. And then, you know, you get older and you're like, oh, are you as confused as me? And they let you take a baby home from the hospital? Really? Shocking. Wow. You realize nobody knows what they're doing. And I love that in that moment of hurt and anger and confusion for her, he, in his own anger and in his own defense of her mother is saying like, you'll be the person who doesn't know the right. right thing to do someday. Yeah. I thought that was beautiful. It's kind of the secret to life, I think, in a lot of ways. Realizing, hitting that moment where you realize, oh, nobody has all the

answers. That's, that is the thing, is that we're all just trying to figure it out. And yeah, as kids, you look to your parents as these are the people who, and that has to exist to some degree. There have to be structure and boundaries. You can't just be a free for all for kids. But to be able to have that realization moment, which happens for a lot of us in high school and college when you go, oh, oh, okay. But have you guys experienced that in real life now? Because I'm living this parallel universe from when we were on the show. Remember when we were playing teenagers?

And we had older women like JoJo and Kelly Jefferson, our makeup artist, and Jane Beck in Wardrobe, and these women who were a little bit older than us telling us, like, be nice to each other. Be a good, like, sister friend. Like, show up. You know, like, they were, like, given us all this advice, and they were just like, it's not that bad. Y'all are so fucking melodramatic. And they were, you know, they were telling us,

I mean, I remember Jojo telling us, like, wear shorter skirts while your legs still look good, you know? Oh, yes. And so they're, like, giving us. She was like, you're going to want this on film, you know. That's it. Show it off, baby. So we had, what your mama gave you.

We had these, they weren't parental figures, but they were certainly people that we looked to and trusted, right? I've got all these, like, girls and, like, actually just young people in their early 20s right now that I'm working with, and I hear myself saying all the same things. It's just this, like, constant cycle of jojoisms, and just, like, you know, on repeat, I wonder, like, I wonder what the next cycle is. Like, I don't know what the next cycle is.

Who are we looking to right now that we're going to be in 15, 20 years? I don't know. Is it all the women who just don't care anymore? They just like, maybe that joy, like fingers crossed. Like, let's just, let's go be real salty. It's funny. Like, when you say who are we looking to, like, I think about women in my life who, yeah, are in that bracket above us, who I'm watching do such interesting things with their personal

brand of leadership. Like, I had Kirsten Gillibrand on the podcast a couple years ago. Yeah. And, like, it's weird to me that I can text a state senator, but, like, I have questions about things going on in America. Yeah. And I'm like, hey, run as, can I ask you something? And she's such a badass.

And she's just like, well, we could propose a bill. We could solve it this way. And here's a thing. And to see this woman who is, you know, a mentor, she's on that cusp like Jojo and all those ladies were of being a mentor and a friend. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I just watch her like lead a state and be a great mom and, and lean into serving people. And then, you know, you flip it like in our own industry and you look at what Reese Witherspoon is built with her production company. And she was like, yeah, I was in arguably one of the most successful

actresses in the industry and couldn't get jobs that were interesting. And everyone was demeaning to women. And so I just made cool shows about women. And so I love being able to look at those women who are just like 10 to 15 years ahead of us. Yeah. And they're nailing it. And I'm like, yeah, we're going to be fine. But they also still don't have the answers, you know? Well, nobody does.

Yeah, it's that realization. It's like when you're a little kid, when you're a little like teenager baby, you think you're supposed to have them and you get really paranoid that you don't. And then you're in your 20s and you're like, but where are they? I'm still looking. and then you hit our age and you're like oh oh I should have listened like they're nowhere they're missed I think it just breath then once you hit that point where we're at now maybe it just breeds that's where it breeds the confidence to go oh well then I have nothing to be afraid of I can just go ask all the questions I can just go for it in every area instead of so

it's that's the natural progression is that there is so much fear and so many things that we're holding on to when we're young and once you hit that point where it's like oh well wait, none of that matters. I can just like go for it and do whatever I want and see how it all turns out. Okay. And I think that's probably what the next 20 years holds for us. I think one of the greatest aha moments in my life was when I realized the most empowering thing I could say to anyone. And the thing I love to hear the most from other people is, I don't know a lot about that.

Will you tell me more? Yeah. That's a sexy thing to say. Oh, when somebody's like, I have no idea what the answer is, let's figure it out together. I'm just like, oh my God. This is glorious. And I do think you're right, Joy. I think that that comes with age.

I think it comes with understanding that the fear that you're the only one in the room who doesn't know everything or have it all together is a total myth. Yeah. And once you realize it's a myth, you're free of it. Yeah, because so much of our identity as we're growing up. is built around what we, wanting other people to like us and wanting to fit into whatever group it is that we do. Make it till you make it. Yeah. And it's scary to be in a room with people that where you feel like you're the only one who doesn't know what's going on or doesn't. And so we'll make things up or we, you know, we come up with things to make a sound like we know what we're

talking about. It is so nice to just be able to say, you know, I just don't know enough about that to talk about it. But I'm super interested in what you have to say. And, you know, I'm learning as I go. that's super engaging i think and i think when we think about being in this moment where we're looking back remembering how we felt and also the teens we were playing you see it as as a marker of age you know there's that scene at the bonfire where brook and lucas are talking and he wants to seem cool and she's saying she's having a great time but she really just wants him to say will you leave with me but he doesn't. He's like, you do you. You know, have a good night. And the letdown on her face is so apparent. And you can see that it's hard for him to say it. And there are two people who aren't willing to admit that they don't know what the other person is feeling. So they're blowing it. They won't just ask because it's too vulnerable. Brooke and Haley are doing the exact opposite things. Like Haley's like, no, no, no, I'm going to tell you exactly what I want. We're going to be together. And I'm not going anywhere. And I'm calling my shot. Meanwhile, Brooke's like, I don't know, guess.

It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind of years. you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball.

Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn SageBurn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When I'm watching Haley in this episode, I feel like she really was coming into her confidence because of everything that she's been through, there's a little bit of that,

okay, I took the risk, I took the leap, and now seeing her blossom into that, not just her snarkiness in her personality or like you know she's much more comfortable in her skin and she's comfortable being able to say like okay i'm going out of a limb i'm going to tell you exactly what i'm looking for which is very different from first season haley yeah yeah who was a lot a lot more scared a lot more like kept everything really close to the vest and now she's just like hard on her sleeve going for it which is kind of cool because i don't know if she would have been able to fight for her marriage in that way

if something had happened before. It's like she needed to go through this experience of putting herself out there on stage and for the world, and now she can do it in her personal life. Well, and she needed something that was just for her so she could know that it was her as an individual that chose her marriage.

Not her in partnership, choosing a partner. It's Haley, the individual, choosing Nathan, the individual. She'd always been in part. partnership before that. Yeah, that's right. And it's cool because she's like, no, now I know what I want, exactly what I want. I don't even care if it's what you want. It's what I want. And this is where we're going. Yeah. And it's, it's, it is. It's a confidence that's new and it's, it's bold and it's sexy and it's so appealing. If this storyline of like Haley and Nathan breaking up had happened

in like season six, when we had totally jumped the shark, you would have gone totally like burning bunnies on him like they they turned everything up to 11 in the later seasons so i love do you know what i mean like they would have had a fatal attraction yeah yeah yeah yeah like stalking nathan and being like we're gonna be together um so i like subtle but firm haley i appreciate season three haley with her good hair and her fucking awesome outfits and that great belt on the beach love it loved that outfit okay why do you think that Nathan can't get over it. Because he's a dude. Look, what is it about men that has that heart? Because I've been, I'll, you know, I'll be brief, but I've been through a scenario like this before romantically where, you know, I dated someone for a while and I really, there were

some things that I just really wasn't sure about, some red flags and some stuff. And so I ended things. And then a couple weeks later, I was like, listen, you know what, this breakup really isn't working for me. I'm actually super in love with you. And I want to figure out how to make this work. And he was like, I just kind of got over you. Like it took me a minute. It was really, really, really, really intense. And then I got over you. And now I'm like not really sure if we can just go. I can't like jump right back in because I finally healed my heart. I want to punch this person. I want to punch this person in the dark. No, I did too. Because we spent the next like two years trying to figure out how to be together. And finally it was just like,

I give up. I like, I can't. I can't keep. You. You got to figure your shit out. It is now scorched earth goodbye. Yeah, exactly. I know. Bye-bye. But you know what? I mean, I don't know.

But dudes do that. They have like a, they have this wall. Go ahead. But I think people have that. Yeah, people have that. Like it's one thing if someone says, I'm not sure I'm scared. I don't want to do this. And then as you're saying you did comes back and you say, actually, I was scared because I'm so

in love with you. And I'm still in love with you. And I, I've learned. something, that's a person having an emotional experience. Has no one seen a movie? Like, that's how every good... Duh. But there's also the reality of when someone breaks your trust, maybe that's emotional

trust, but also there's trust, and Nathan is sitting here going, you cheated on me with someone. You kissed another man. I forget about the guy. And then you left with him. And like, look, I know it's different. It's a bad look. It's different.

And I know in the world of like cheating, it's tame, it's a kiss. It's not like, you know, she went and slept with this person or had a month's long affair with this person. Granted, it may have been an emotional affair. But like, if we're talking about our shit, y'all, I've been through infidelity. You want to see my scorched earth? Like, the door is closed. The drawbridge is down.

I've put alligators in the moat and I will kill you if you come close to me. Like, it's just like, goodbye. It's a goodbye. Alligators in your moat, so bad. Oh, yeah. Alligators in the moat. I'm just like, I'm like, try coming to the castle. I'll kill you. Oh, my God.

I don't know. I love this. So, look, could I get over it if someone said I made a mistake and I got kissed or it happened? And then I was like, no, I don't want to do that. I could probably get over that. I would be bummed. I don't know if I could get over it. If my partner was like, this thing happened and it was really uncomfortable.

and then I realized it was uncomfortable and I got out of it as quickly as I could and then was like, but I am going to go on a book tour with this person. I'd be like, what? Get the fuck out of here! So, I don't know. I 100% hear what you're saying.

Because the first flub, the kiss isn't the thing, the tour's the thing. The tour with the kiss guy. Yeah, that's the choice. It's a big choice. God, well, here I was feeling real bad about how bitchy page. was and now Sophia just talked me right out of that emotion. I'm good with it. Peyton was the alligator

in the moat. Oh, tell me about it. You're right. That was a big, that's a really big deal. And for a high schooler, and especially somebody like Nathan, who hasn't been emotionally vulnerable with anyone except this girl. Like he finally laid it all out for her. And then she was like, okay, but just sit here with your emotions and deal with it because I got to go do my thing. I'm leaving on this bus with this guy you're very threatened by the okay. Guys we have to do an abbreviated version of these episodes as grown-ass women. Were we talking about doing like drunk history but drunk OTH? Yes. Drunk OTH history. Okay, but you're going to have to sit here. Awesome. Just awesome.

don't be mad i'm just gonna go get on this bus with the guy i only kissed him the one time you need to relax it's fine i see you when i see you everything's fine you trust me just has distressed me okay oh my god i love it so much but you know i love it a lot you know what i think is interesting though is like joy even hearing your perspective where you're going why can't he get over it because as a viewer how she feels for him is so apparent to you and to the two of us. And that's why it works. I think that's why the audience always rooted for them.

Yeah. Because the audience knew what Nathan didn't, which was she didn't mean it. She didn't love that guy. She loves you. Everybody makes mistakes. Yeah. And it's such a fun relationship to watch because he's going to heal the way he needs to and he's going to take the time he needs to.

But we all, as viewers, unequivocally know. that he's the guy for her. And it's... We're screaming at the television. It's like when you see someone go into a haunted house. You're like, don't go to the stairs. Because the babies that are going upstairs right. You know, it almost makes Antoine's philosophy

of only reading your parts of the script makes so much sense. Because how could James play this frigidness with Haley if he knew all the things that we know, the we see? that makes total sense. He's doing a great job, though. Oof, I mean, that is cold. Angry James is the scariest.

Yes. Like, you don't want to, you're like, please don't ever be mad at me. Now, listen, once he levels up into Kevin Kielner territory and starts playing Mad Dad, you just sign me right up. Oh, yeah.

James Lafferty as Mad Dad, for sure. For sure. Because James doesn't explode. James is just done. Yes. He just, you know what I mean? And Nathan's the same way. It's like, there's no explosion.

It's, oh, no, the walls, the drawbridge is up. There's alligators in the moat. And there's no way in. Are you saying more similar? It's done. It's actually very funny because seeing Brooke and Nathan in their parallel in this episode, them winding up alone together watching Haley and Lucas walk off. Great moment.

I remembered. I loved that moment. But you know what bummed me out? I do remember we shared a moment, James and I, you know, Brooke is standing there. Lucas has just left and said, I'm the guy for you and you're going to see, you know, and she's wondering if she can trust him. Haley has said, I'm not going anywhere. And Nathan's like, yeah, okay.

He's like, he's got to wait and see. Is she really going to stay? Are these two going to prove it to Brooke and to Nathan? And I remember in the blocking, when Lucas walks away from Brooke, standing there, you know, the, she kind of, she, I, it's so weird to talk about our characters. I know. I, like, took a step away from the lifeguard boys. She I, we, we, Brooke and I. We walked away from the lifeguards.

And then James walked up. James walked up on this screen. Yeah, I'm so confused. I'm like, what am I? Oh, good. And then James walks up to me and we watch the two of you. walk away. And I remember there was there was a take as you would where we looked at each other and then we looked at you two. And I understand the direction. They wanted to discern that it's a

much farther road for Haley and Nathan than it is for Brooke and Lucas. And so then there was the request to don't look at him. You know, you guys standing side by side communicates it enough and maybe you're hopeful. And that's what made it in the episode. Yeah. Brooke and Nathan never make eye contact and Brooke kind of smiles thinking like, oh, wow, he's really, he's really showing up. And I get it. But man, I missed, I missed these two people having their moment of like, wow, we're kind of on an island. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's nice. That's what's so interesting about what we do is it's art. Like everyone has an opinion and there's a million versions. It's like sliding doors. Both scenes would have worked.

But our director liked it better that Brooke was happy and didn't look at Nathan. And it's so cool to me that, like, every version has its own life. Well, because Brooke's also the only person not wallowing in anything right now. Yeah, yeah. We needed you to be the sunshine in that little yellow shirt because you were, like, the only one. You had so much fun. You know what I realized in this episode? Brooke single-handedly embodies every character on Sex and the City.

Oh, yeah. Oh my God. Thank you. All of them. You're all of them. Think about that for a second. Tell me more, joy. She's totally got the Charlotte mom energy right now, like taking care of everyone. The skinny dipping, you know, running around, playing with all the boys, Brooke, that is, what's Samantha? And then what's Cynthia Nixon's character's name, Miranda? Miranda's like into politics. And she's like, you know, and she's like, yeah, getting into politics and education and, you know, caring about causes. and all of that. And then Sarah Jessica Park group always has the most amazing outfits

and who's just like super emotionally raw and vulnerable and always just wants to be in the right place with the right man. This is the best day of my life. You did it. This is the happiest day of my life. Check, check.

You don't even need to watch sex in the city anymore. Just watch Brooke in One Tree Hill. That's it. Oh my God. That's such a good observation joy. My face is overhead. Wait, so then do you get to pick who you're Mr. Big is?

like in all of O.T.H. like history, who is Brooks big? I mean, you can go wide here. You can do anything you want. You literally made the closet door boy lists this episode. So you could put any famous boy lists. Big on there. I mean, you know what? I'd even open it up to the, all of the Warner Brother like CW shows. Oh. Like, Brooke Davis got around. Like, who's her big? Oh, man, that's tough. Yeah, why was there a Brooke crossover on like a million other episodes? Brooke could have been on like any other show.

Brooke should definitely have gone on Gossip Girl and slapped one of those boys for being behaved. I kind of feel like, honestly, I think if we hadn't been robbed in season two, I think Uncle Cooper probably would have been Brooks big. Oh, that could have been good. You know, the older guy who has a big career and the whole, you know, but then they chickened out. So, which I get, I mean, I should not have as a teenage character been dating little. No, I thought he said that that was going to be for the five-year jump that they were going to put you guys together. Yeah. You're right.

Yeah, no. You're right. It's still. So he should have been it. Yeah. He should have been Mr. Big. Oh, you and Coop would have been a thing, man. Yep.

Yep. That would have been really nice. Okay. All right. Okay. It may look different, but native culture is. is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional.

It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Can we talk about Lucas and Nathan on the River Court? Because Joy, you made really good points about James's energy being very, like, clear and kind of shut down.

And while we're watching the scene, there's like a trend in boy acting right now where everybody wants to talk like Batman. And it makes me insane. Everyone wants to be like, cool. And boy, Chad just like left it all out on the field. He's like up one minute and down the next and he's trying so hard to break through the wall of Nathan. And like, if I can't get your sympathy, if I can't get your empathy, if I can't connect with you that way, that I'm going to tell you to fuck off, you know? Like, I'm going to try to elicit any kind of emotion I can from you. I'm going to threaten you.

I just love that our boys acted like real teenage boys. boys like they weren't trying to be hip yeah i love that too yeah it makes such a difference it was um it was still that era and the other shows that were on the air that were in our demographic were genre based shows and i even consider gossip girl to be a genre based show because it was such heightened fantasy yeah it was very fantasy like dynasty or something um so yeah it was i think we were kind of the last of the breed of the Everwood and Dawson's Creeks and Gilmore Girls where it was just very natural, be emotional, be raw. They weren't really worried about their heartthrob status. It was just more about doing good work. And also, that was a huge benefit of being in Wilmington

as opposed to being in Los Angeles filming this show because in L.A., there's a totally different culture and pressure around young actors. And to be in Wilmington, A lot of us were theater actors. We had a lot of guest stars that came down from New York as theater actors. And so the work really was the most important thing for people on the show. Yeah. You'd be called out if you weren't going to do the work. I mean, I remember Paul being like, if you're not going to commit, then don't even say the words.

Because if you only go halfway, you're going to look stupid. You know, Paul told me a story once about, I won't say who, but he told me a story once about someone who came on the show and had been, working as a supporting actor, a recurring actor in one of the seasons, and had been around for a while, but finally got a real storyline written for them. And there was a lot to do, and it was highly emotional. And that person came to work and didn't know their lines and wasn't really, it was kind of distracted on their phone. And he, I remember him just being like, I just want to tell you how many people would kill for the position that you're in right now and the fact that

you've disrespected everyone by showing up here like you have a huge opportunity this this could make you a series regular but instead you've shown up and showed us all that you don't respect any of our work and you don't respect yourself and you don't believe in yourself enough to show up knowing your lines and made the person cry but kind of rightly so just because he called it out and was like, listen, I'm going to tell you the truth. You fucked up. You messed up. Yeah, it's Larry energy.

Mad Dad. Yeah. Well, he was directing, by the way. So that's why he was in the position to say that. It's not like random. I cherish honest feedback. Me too. Constructive criticism is one of the greatest things a human being can give you.

And it shows that they respect you. Yeah. This new. whatever thing where like you're supposed to sugarcoat everything and you know that's passive aggressive man don't really tell someone when they screw up like you know just tell them they're doing a great job but you know maybe what whatever maybe it's not a fit it drives me crazy it's like no be honest care about me enough to to give me feedback value that I am enough of an adult and that I have enough of an intellect and enough capability to be empathetic, to learn that I have not met an expectation

or let you down, and then I can change. It's the crux even of a healthy romantic relationship. You have to be able to say to your partner, this thing in our interaction caused a rip, and now together we have to repair it. Because if you don't acknowledge that there's a rip, you can't repair it ever. And I don't understand why, you know, My fear now would be that if Paul had said that to someone, you know, they would have gone and complained about him. And it's like, he just gave you the best career advice of your life. Yes. You should thank him. You should write him a thank you note. Yes, exactly. You should go to thank him. Exactly. Send it by dumb. You'll go be better. You'll go be better forever after having heard that. You know?

It's beyond, it drives me crazy when they don't give me honest feedback. It's actually vital to an act. as an artist, I cannot trust you as a director or another actor or whatever, mostly with directors. This is my complaint in episodic when they're just sugar-coding things and moving thought. No, it's good. It's good. I won't trust you. And if you don't, if you're not willing to tell me something that's hard or something I don't, you think I don't want to hear, then I can't trust you. And how can I put my heart out, take it out, my beating heart out of my chest and hold it out in front of you. and this entire crew and the other person in the scene. How can I do that if I don't trust you?

Yeah. Well, because what it says to me is that you don't respect me enough to tell me what you really think. Yeah. And respect is required for growth. Yeah. And it's interesting when you say that, Joy, it makes me think about the way Nathan talks to Haley in this episode.

Yeah. Because he does have the wall up with Lucas. He doesn't give him anything at the river court. But you realize that what Lucas said got in. because he shows up at the party and he's just honest with her. And he says, I don't know. I don't know if I'm going to be ready.

I don't know if I'm ever going to be ready. I'm going to go do my basketball thing. He literally tells her what his defense mechanisms are. Yeah. And it's so, oh my God, what a gift that he gives her honest feedback and says, you did this thing. you know to use your metaphor it's like you wasted my time yeah you've shown me what you think and I don't know if I'm going to get over it and it's what a gift and to hear it coming out of the

mouth of a teenage boy I know and how about that entrance with the guitar it was so cat on hot tin roof I keep saying this about the storyline because they just I keep feeling like it's um Liz Taylor you know when when Paul Newman and cat on a hot tin roof finally yells at her in the first like within the first like 30 45 minutes of the movie and she's like that's progress that's progress okay an emotion you're giving me some kind of emotional reaction i'll take it um for you for those of you who don't know the story paul newman uh i mean it's multi-layered and has all sorts of themes don't explain it to them join make them watch it make them watch the damn movie um but anyway you all have homework this week exactly but it's so but so when he shows up and puts tim's

guitar on the fire and it's just very like okay anger i'll take it great do you know who else we're getting somewhere strong honest feedback in this episode who Karen in Karen's cafe with dad in that scene in that green tank top the slow just that slow steady shot on her when she's like i'm sad whoever tried to kill you failed what do you have been nice like she and she says it with a smile and it's not overly done it's just a glimmer and I love that she masterful she can feel Dan baiting her trying to find out if it's Keith if it's Andy if it's her like who killed me you know she's playing with him she wants him to think maybe it's me maybe he thinks but by the way rather than be a person who's like oh no is he

wearing a wire. Are the cops looking at me? Did he give my name to authorities? And like, acting out of fear, she's like, no, I'm going to admit that I would love for you to be dead. That would be what a blessing. Yeah. And I love too that it was a well-written scene because he punches so low saying that Lucas was a mistake. You know, whatever, whatever it is, she says, well, something must have been. And he goes, yeah, kind of like Lucas. So gross. And immature. Like he's still 16 years old.

Nathan has laughed his father. That's where we're at. By light years. And Karen absorbs the blow and then deals it back to him slowly. It's so, it's, she takes this darkness and Moira manages to not only give such a masterful scene class, but she makes it so sexy. Yeah. You're just like, oh my God, I'm intimidated and I love you.

That was Karen taking charge. It's amazing. It's always good. Wait, but this whole crush on Keith thing seems like a weird device. Because as we have new guest stars come in, like, yes, we're paying Kevin Kilner. We're paying Cheryl Lee. Who else are we paying this episode? I don't know who else. I don't know. Brett. Those are the two big stuff. Yeah, I mean,

they weren't paying Brett well because they weren't paying us well. But it's like they have to take other people off the docket, you know? And so they're, well, we'll just get rid of Andy and Keith and let Moira stew over it for a little while. Yeah, because Barbara wasn't in this episode either. What I don't understand, though, you guys, is she's lamenting Andy being gone and seems like she misses Andy. And but then it's Keith, but then it's Andy, but then who does she miss? I can't, I feel like, I don't know if it's a device to get us somewhere

because I don't remember what's coming in the storyline or any of them, I guess. Or if it was like lazy writing where they were like, it's Kate, it's Andy, it's Katie. Like, what's happening? It was them pitting them against each other because they were like, hey, listen, man, if you don't agree to this like price

that we want to pay you, we're just going to go with this cheaper dude. That's what I was just going to say. I think they're trying to figure out if they could get Craig back for another season. reason or not. They were just in contract negotiations. So they were like, let's just keep them both in the mix until we decide who's. It's so dumb. That's when you're like, you got to have creative people in power positions at studios. Because if it's just about the bean

counting, it really throws embarrassing wrenches in your creativity. Yeah, for sure. Ain't that the truth? And that's our PSA about the executive suite. Wait, what's going to happen with Peyton and Ellie here? I'm trying to, I mean, I like that Peyton says, am I ever going to be able to trust anyone in my life or something to that effect? And I feel that. And I, it's hilarious that she's the worst DJ ever in this episode and that she just keeps playing.

You guys, by the way, that was good music she was playing. Like I. It's good. Yeah. But Hillary, you are Payton Sawyer. You're like, excuse me. That was not bad music. By the way, just because you guys can't shake your ass to it doesn't mean.

it's not worthy of a beach play. You light up my life. Come on. That's a party hit if I ever heard one. It's on theme. We just lit a bonfire. Read between the lines. So rough.

No, I really, I said a number of times in this episode how much I like the music because it was super recognizable stuff. There was like Fall Out Boy in there and there were some like bops from the early 2000s that we all definitely listened to on a regular rotation. Yeah. Music was becoming a bigger deal on our show. And I really feel like you and Tyler laid the groundwork for that. Because once you guys went out on tour, artists were like, oh, they're, no, this is like real. If we go on One Tree Hill, it's not like we're playing in the background, like on other shows. We become a part of the storyline. That's right. Totally different. Totally fun. It's probably why we got people like Pete Wentz to come and be a part of the real storyline on the show. Yeah. You know, this episode was hard for me because I had a funeral to go to in Iowa for a relative. And I remember going to the executive suite and being like, guys, I'll do anything. I'll do anything. But I have to be gone, you know, these like three days. And they were like, you can't go. You can't go. You can't go. And I'm literally like crying and begging. And I'm just like, please.

You have to let me go. So finally, it got, and I feel like I may have took like a pen to the script and been like, you don't need me in this scene. There was a scene where Peyton and Nathan had like a whole conversation, like sitting on a cooler. I feel like I either remember reading it or take, do you remember this?

I don't. It's not in the cut. So I can't remember if we cut it from the script or if we like filmed it, real half-ass and they were like, you know what? Meh. But if you notice all of Peyton's scenes at the beach party are close-up shots of

her at that table and I did all of my scenes in one day so I could go to this funeral in Iowa. But it works because Peyton is really cut off. She's on everyone right now. Yeah. So it was a device that worked out fucking great

if you ask me. Yeah. Damn it. Good job. I'm also glad that you, I mean, It sucks that there's so little humanity in the behind the scenes of our jobs. But I'm glad that you advocated for yourself. And it just played into the storyline. It's like, I can't trust anybody. Everybody's against me.

Yeah. You know, Peyton's grumpy. And Joy, you made the comment. You're like, you and Cheryl have enough of the same, like, mannerisms. And your eyes are similar kind of, too. But there's enough, enough similarity. It's weird to watch it as a separate person because at the time I remember thinking like, oh, we're so different.

We're so different. And now watching as a grown up, I'm like, I get it. I mean, now you see it. I think she watched you. I think she watched some of your performances and was copying some of the stuff that you do. And you could see it, the parallel between the Peyton and Larry fight. And then when Larry gets her on the riverwalk and they have a fight, she stands like you. She looks up at him.

she does these things that look like you Hillary. Like when you're upset and you were open, you know, that sort of, it was so, such a young teenage girl thing to do when you're crying to, you like open your mouth a little. Like, I don't know how to explain it, but you do that. It is, it's just sort of like petulant, like childish. It's great. And she did it. She did it in that, in the last moment after Larry walked away.

And I was like, this actress was watching, she was watching you. I love her so fucking much. When do we have her on? Have we reached out to Sherry? Soon I hope. Guys, God, we got to get her on soon. I hadn't seen her since we, like, filmed the show, and she was at that last convention that we were at,

right before the pandemic hit. And I, the one in Wilming? Yes, baby, I wept. I wept and wept and wept when I saw her, because I just, I love her. She's the only person that could have played Ellie, the only person. Do you remember how psyched we were when we heard

that Laura Palmer was going to, be on our show. Nuts. It was nuts. Because also Moira had been in the Twin Peaks movie and it just felt like, it felt like we were like kind of getting their street cred vicariously. It was like, oh, yes. They're cool girls. Sign us up. Yes.

No, I, you know, this is a fun episode for me. I love this episode. I'm writing it down as one of my favorite of all time because I like the duality. of the stuff like Tim being naked with the guitar at the bonfire and Brooke writing the names on the doors but then all the emotional heavy lifting too. Like when our show hit this kind of stride

where the balance between fun and serious were even those were our best episodes. Magic. It felt like the season one magic all those moments. Yeah. That's what it felt like to me. It really did. And it's interesting to see the precursors to some things, like, we see that gif of the door fight between Brooke and Peyton.

We've seen it for 15 years. It's coming. I forgot how hilarious the introduction of the doors was. Yeah. Like, the scene between us is so funny. You wake up. I'm in your room drawing on shit. I go get you your toothbrush and hand it to you when we're having a conversation and you're brushing your teeth.

It's great. Good direction. Oh, such good direction and the energy of these best friends. And it starts in this light, happy, funny place where Brooke is saying Larry's her hot dad fantasy and, like, they're deciding who gets to have Dave Grohl. Why does it creep me out? I know. I have the reaction where I'm like, oh, honey, don't. You're like, ew, gross.

Yeah. It's just like, it's so lovely to see the fun and the innocence and the humor and you and I really getting to band. her. And then knowing where it goes, I'm like, this was, this was well done. Yep. And the Brooke and Peyton, I mean, sorry, the Brooke and Haley starting to build this little bubbly friendship, too, which is so fun. Because I've, I think Haley was really disconnected from the girls. Even though they tried a lot in season one, there was, I think she still kind of always was like, the odd man out, because you two had a history together. So it's really fun to see everything coming together now. And us throwing zingers at each other too.

You know, like, you throw it at me and I throw it at you. I'm like, well, where do you want to watch us? And you're just like, ew. You know, and it feels like a sibling energy. Quarter past, go out and gudge my eyes out or something? It's my favorite thing. But it's got like sibling energy. Yeah, for sure.

And everything they're giving us this season, oh, it does. It just feels very alive and fun. It may look different. but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer

because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball.

Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, we loved this episode. We have a listener question, and we have to spin a wheel. Are you girls ready? All right. Hit me with a question. Jocelyn is asking, where do you see yourselves professionally and personally in the next 10 years?

Directing, writing? Isn't that funny? That's just kind of what we were talking about in the beginning of the episode, too. What is she a wizard? How did she know we were going to talk about this? I'm going to get my damn ass on Broadway. or the West End for Christ's sake at some point in the next 10 years. Hey, Joy, we'll be in the audience.

Guess who has an apartment in the city, totally ready for that to happen? Yes, taking over. Yeah, writing, directing, producing, singing, touring, momming, maybe wifing. I don't know. I don't know. Let's see what happens. Are we, we're going to solicit for all those things.

Guys, I should have brought my, I've got crystals over there. I should have lit candles and, like, brought the crystals over before we started manifesting. I got a candle lit. Look at this. Perfect. I got it. Perfect. I love your candles.

I'm burning a candle for us, lady. I'm manifesting right now. Calling all the witches of the North. All the witches. Just launch into the craft. Yeah, look at its vibes. Guys, Brooke talked about witchcraft before she lit that fire, and I liked it. I was like, oh, Hillary, they gave us a little colonel.

Yeah, they knew it was like. coming. They knew. These bitches are going to go dark later. I honestly want to lean more into just like writing. I just had a really good meeting with my publisher, Harper One, about my second book. And it just made me want to write all the books. Like, I think for so long in my youth, I felt like I had to be an extrovert and I had to be, like, had to go places.

And you guys know that my comfort zone is literally my cave. And writing lets me do that. So I'll just come out on our wine tours for Drama Queens. Otherwise, I'm going to be in a cave with the crystals. Writing. Writing. We're going to get into some fiction, kids. Oh, yes.

I love that. It's coming. It's funny you say that. I have a dream of doing some YA fiction. Oh, yes. Because we didn't, you know, we've talked about it. When we were doing this show, we didn't have a lot. It was for us as young women.

Well, no, but we had to like... We had more of that. Geek love and perks of being a wallflower were the big books, but they weren't necessarily geared towards chicks. It was kind of just like, this is outsider, Y-A and stuff. Yeah, and I think about, you know, wanting to write something for young us i think about um to your point joy like i take all your adjectives aside from singing and touring i will not be dropping an album um but don't say that you could you could you could

oh my god watch the universe is going to be like well look out ladies and the three of us you know what i'm down if we want to do something i'm yeah oh my god they're so good uh twist my arm but yeah i think i think it's more of all those things, you know, I'm reading great scripts and I'm thinking about what I want to act in, what I want to direct, I'm thinking about what I want to write. I'm starting to feel like I'm finally getting out of my own way. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a really good writer and I love reading. And I love topical writing, like things that, you know, op-eds and journalism skewing pieces. and to lean into that as a strength rather than say, like, no, other people do that. No, no.

Yeah. Like, I'm finally hitting a point in my life where I'm stopping coming up with excuses for why I'm not good at the thing that everyone I trust tells me I'm good at. Amen. Well, did you watch the Taylor Swift NYU graduation speech where... No, oh, I thought you were going to say the Taylor Swift documentary, and I was going to be like, yes, I've seen it twice. No, she was just the commencement speaker, and she talks about, um, I just saw a clip on the interweb, and she's like, you know, somewhere along the lines,

people made it uncool to try. And I'm here to tell you, it's cool to try. Like, try everything. Try all the things. And so I hope that our younger fan base in particular heard that because it is cool to try. Do all the things. It's hard to get out of your own way and get out of the fears of feeling like you don't want to be the person in the room who doesn't know what's going on. But the truth is everyone loves someone who is trying.

Everyone loves someone who's asking questions and going for it. And you're not going to run into a lot of people who want to throw up a stop sign or close a door in your face. If you're sincerely just putting it all out there, like, I'm just trying. I'm just going for it. And you should be. And I can't believe I'm only just now reaching that point in my life where I'm really ready to start. going for it and stop again like you said so coming up with excuses why i can't i got the i get this it's too much i'm overwhelmed blah blah blah no no stop it just do it i mean not to get like two

in our feelings here but honestly you guys i i think it's incredibly pressing in this moment i wish i wish it was a little later and we were all having one but i would say like we should it's like it feels like a moment for like an emotional or spiritual toast because we start survived the early aughts on a teen drama. That era was so rough for young girls. And the thing that I have always loved about the two of you, which I'm finally willing to recognize in myself, is emotional resiliency. And we have stuck it out. And we have made mistakes and we have continued moving. And we've been nice enough to not pretend that that wasn't our reality. We've shared our reality with everybody who's listening to this podcast today with our fans like we haven't tried

to do the thing of like well you know we're in the public eye and we're just going to act like we love like that all together like shut up yeah and and here we are we only do messy we've been on this journey messy that's the big word the point really is like cheers to emotional resiliency and messy i love you both cheers jocelyn i hope you're everywhere you want to be in 10 years um and more Yes, ma'am. And more. Yeah. Well, let's find out who is most likely to be something else in 10 years.

What's our wheel say? Joy, that was such a good segue. Oh, my God. You're so good at this. Sometimes it works. Sometimes she's a good director. She likes a transition. Oh, no.

Is this Brooke? I don't know. Most likely to order. No, it's Bevan. Oh, yes. The character, not the person. A pumpkin spice latte. Who's most likely to order a pumpkin spice latte?

It's either Bevin the character. or Tim. Yes. Oh, Tim. That's a good one. I love that. I think Tim is on the money. Or skills.

Tim being a pumpkin spice latte guy feels really right to me. He just loves the real life. I think Antoine. I think Antoine actually might be in real life. I think he likes them. Yeah. No, Angela's like a Frappuccino guy. Like he's like it.

Yeah, but no, I get it. The sweet bit. The sweet bit. He likes sweet. Yeah. Our boys. I love our boys. Our boys are they just, they're the best boys. We got so lucky. I hope they're in the next episode, because I miss seeing their faces. We need them. I know. I think the writers forgot how badly we needed them around us in this show and how badly the audience needed that sense of groundedness of home. They were established in the beginning of this series as a sense of home. And I miss them when they're not around. Well, let's tag garbage from Peyton's side of the closet doors. our very own junk, Cullen Moss, is in the staircase and is so good.

Oh, my God, he's so good. Cullen's just, like, blowing up. He should have, like, blown up when we were younger, but he's got just the perfect energy right now to be in all of these fabulous things, like Outer Banks and the Staircase. So go watch My Sweet Garbage. I love that. My sweet garbage.

We love you guys. Thank you for your thoughtful questions and for showing up for us and your continued support and encouragement. And we can't wait to have another week with you. Come on back and check us out next Sunday at midnight. Or, you know, Monday morning when you wake up. Whatever works for you. We will see you next week for season three episode three.

First day on a brand new planet. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's OTH. Or email us at Drama Queen's at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school drama girl drama girl all about them high school queens We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl

Cheering for the right team drama queens drama queens smart girl rough girl fashion but you'll tough girl you could sit with us girl Drama queen drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens It may look different but native culture is alive my name is Nicole Garcia and I'm burn sage burn bridges we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an IHeart podcast.