Drama Queens - Please Forgive Me ᐧ EP701

Episode Date: July 15, 2024

Sophia, Joy and Rob discuss the therapeutic rewards of rewatching the show… as well as a few painful reminders.   Find out why Rob battled with portraying Clay, the trauma that encompassed the infamous beach scene, and why a specific moment between Nathan and Jamie helped them all to better understand the different layers of forgiveness.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens.

Listen, so far, I've literally been given zero information or direction on how to do this job. And I kind of feel like we should just continue that trend. It's kind of fitting. It's like the show. Just no one told me anything. They're like, eh, have fun, kid. Good luck. So, Rob, I'm going to let you in on a little something, which actually might be a perfect way to start season seven.

When we first sat down to start talking about this, I don't know if you remember, you looked at us on FaceTime, you go, but what are we going to talk about? And we were like, who knows? We'll make it up as we go along. We won't know until we start. Like, there is no direction. We just get to try. It's terrifying.

But great for you, Rob. You're good at improv. And I'm not afraid to make an ass of myself. I'm comfortable with. That's my strike zone. So I feel like we're good. Okay. Well, now that we've gotten a little bit of how the sausage is made out of the way,

Roberto, take us away. Hey, read us our synopsis for the beginning of Season 7. Oh, I have waited so long for this moment. Season 7, Episode 1, 4.30 a.m. Apparently, they were traveling abroad. Air date September 14th, 2009. Nathan learns of a shocking accusation that could threaten his career, much to the chagrin of his sports agent Clay.

Chagrin. Brooke prepares to launch a new fashion line, and Julian decides to produce a big movie. Haley's sister Quinn makes a surprise visit, Meanwhile, Jamie celebrates his seventh birthday. Directed by Clark Mathis. Robert, you have such a soothing synopsis voice. Yeah.

I've spent so much time practicing. Two hours in the shower this morning, so that is really helpful and good feedback to get. Have you been told that you have a good radio voice? Is this like something that's followed you in life? More a good face for radio, less a good voice for it. I one time had a friend who did voiceover tell me Yeah, you do the cool guy vocal fry And I said, what?

She was like, it's what cool people have, they're like, eh, And it was the only time I ever thought like, oh, oof, uh-oh, it's not fun to become aware of something you do all the time, you know? Yeah. That said, this is a great episode. We're so happy to be here. Thanks for joining us. I know how you feel about that.

I remember, this was not long ago. Like, this was pretty recent. Someone showed me a video, like a bunch of us were out to lunch and a friend of ours had taken this video and they were like, isn't it so funny? Like, I just love that you always do that gag, like, when you really love a sandwich and you pretend to go cross-eyed. And I was like, what? And literally one of my best friends went, what?

And I was like, what are you talking about? And they were like, you're not. doing that as a joke and I was like doing what as a joke and they literally replayed me the video and I was like is that what I look like when I eat a sandwich and I apparently when I'm really enjoying something I'm eating not apparently actually I've seen it now in video evidence basically go like a really odd version of cross-eyed and a lot of my friends thought I was being purposefully funny and I am a little horrified by it. It's great. This is going to translate to every single time you and I hang out

me slyly trying to get you to order a sandwich. Like, oh yeah, we should have sandwiches. It's, Italian sub looks good. Yeah. You want to go to potato chip deli today? Yeah. Man, sorry you're bummed out. You know what would make you feel better? Probably a sandwich. Yeah. And I mean, Joy, you're pointing it out. I am like, I'm a true sandwich person. So, you know, I get it. there's nothing worse than when I will speak for myself the first acting class I ever took it was a commercial acting class and the teacher said you should you should start to figure out how you look like when you're just being so set up a camera and sit in front of it and just call your friends and family and just record and I didn't get more than probably three

minutes into watching that video before I was horrified Just all of the things I do that I was wildly unaware of. So listeners, if you really want to get hyper self-aware and uncomfortable, record yourself casually having conversations and just see all the things you're not aware that you do all the time. I can't decide if that would be a great tip or if it would just make me implode as a person. Yeah, but after the implosion, I think it would help. It helps every, it's got to help every actor, right? like to be able to know how like how to feel in your body that you know when you're on a set

if you're not doing some of those things you're like oh i'm not connected i'm like feeling funky i don't know did it help you initially i imploded in a very big way it was terrible past the implosion but past it i agree i think when you're an actor any sort of a position that is like front facing the public it is very good to be aware of just what your general body language is and your ticks are That said, if that is not required for your job, don't need to do it. Don't go down there. Yeah. Stay out of the basement.

Oh, man. I guess it's like it's bad enough for me sometimes going back and watching these episodes and going, huh, do I do that with my face? Like, I don't know if I would be able to handle it not edited down for time. I might sob. Yeah. Did you ever have a time where you, or are you even to this day, are you comfortable watching yourself? Are you able to watch yourself? I don't love it.

Joy? No, I'm uncomfortable. I don't like it. It also feels a bit purposeless to me because I'm, the point of what we do is to be in the moment of doing it to play and have fun and to then sit down and go back and watch what I, like the moment's gone for me. So why would I watch it for me? I like watching what other people did. It's fun to, like, see a story come together as a whole and be like, oh, that was fun. They edited it this way or whatever.

But I am uncomfortable when I'm on screen. I don't like to watch it. And has it always been that way? I think that developed. I think the more I saw myself on screen from, like, the ages of 12 to 16, eventually I was like, ah, this isn't good for me. I should just continue. Because I was a theater kid.

So doing theater, you're just in the moment. There's maybe a tape from, you know, like the back of the arms. audience at VHS where everything's blurry and you can't see it anyway. I'm like, that's fun. But yeah, really starting to see myself on screen. I was like, this is so anti the training that I've had, the theater. This is so not what I'm supposed to be doing is watching myself. I don't even like looking at myself on Zoom. I'm like, thick fidgety and I'm like, oh, my shirt and my hair. And I like, stop looking at myself because I just can't. I'm like, how do I fix it? And then I'm like, I'm not supposed to fix it. I'm supposed to be here in the

moment. Sets off my neurosis, I think. What about you? I used to not be able to at all to the point where I really couldn't watch anything without just massively cringing and just getting lost and only seeing what I did wrong and just nitpicking myself. But it's interesting because as I've grown, as I sort of going to therapy, learning the practice of self-love and self-compassion, And I am now able to sort of have a different experience. I kind of have the opposite trajectory of you where now I can watch it and go, that worked. I bought that. Or no, okay, we reached for that one.

You know, especially nowadays, because everything's a self-tape, I used to not be able to self-tape without it just being a brutal exercise and self-judgment. You know, it was all stick and no carrot. And I'm able to now just watch it and kind of be free of a lot of that sort of negative chatter and just go, yeah that's good it's close or yep that's it we can move on you know yeah where it used to just be brutal self tapes are different i can do that with self tapes because i'm because i'm wanting to make sure i'm presenting the best possible thing so you sort of have to go into that zone so i i can relate to that i don't like it you don't like any sound no i think i literally am like well i may i guess i'm never going to work again i'm not doing that i'm not doing you want to get on a

I think you're in any danger with that, Sophia. I'm just like, so, I hate it. I'm actually really trying to turn it into a bit of an exercise, like a reprogramming, because I do, I love to come to work and play. And I love, like, oh, my God, especially if there's a project that is so great and I can bop in for a day, you know, be like a linchpan, do some important scene for something with people I love. Like, I'm always game.

I'm not the person that's like, give me number one on the call sheet every time. I don't give a shit. Like, if it's a great group of people and a great story and I get to contribute, big or small, love that. Totally. So I'm trying to sort of, in my brain recently, I was like, huh, what if I treated making a self-tape, like, going in to do a great cameo on a movie I like? Like, I have to, I have to, like, convince myself into it, I think. But I find it so interesting, Rob, to hear you talk about, like, particularly for. for you as, I mean, not to like, not to objectify you, but welcome to our life on our TV

show. But like as like an objectively like handsome man, like, you know, you are a dude like, God, when I met you, like they had you like walking through lipstick jungle with no shirt on like in slow mo doing closeups on your blue eyes. Like I think it's so easy for us to project so much confidence onto men who, you know, in one sense like won the genetic lottery and in another sense play confident characters. Like I had that sort of cognitive dissonance with who people thought I was because I played Brooke Davis versus who I am. And it's interesting to me to hear you talk about how much work you've had to do to be good

to yourself, to be able to watch yourself because especially after last week, like talking about how you came into the show and talking about how you guys redid that amazing Jerry McGuire scene with clay and the ball. I was like eating you up on screen this whole episode. I was like, it is confident. It is fast-paced. It is energetic. Like I was like cheerleading for you in front of the TV by myself, which I wish you could

have seen. I should have set up a camera. I would have been like, wow, I didn't know I made that face. But like, you're so magnetic and charming and funny and dry and all of these things on our show. Yeah. So I'm wondering if you're having. the experience that we started having when the podcast started, which was now we have this

decade or so of distance from our show, instead of having to watch it like, you know, week of and live tweet like we do on things we do now, is it, is it fun for you? Like, are you looking back and going, oh my God, I actually do think I get why people love this show so much? Like, are you there yet or is it still weird for you? Because we're only in episode one. Yeah. Well, it's still for sure weird. That said, I easily, that was one of my notes, is I totally see why this show was a success. I watched it and all of it and all the levels. I went, yeah, that's great.

That works. I'm in. I love this story. I love that story. These people are killing it. So there is zero mystery to me as to why One Tree Hill was a success and why it continues to resonate with people. Yeah. But kind of to your point about lipstick jungle, right?

It was this odd thing where I had done a couple things. in a row where I was the shirtless young guy and the problem was this happened early in my career and again way before I start to figure out like who I am and like know myself I sort of assumed okay this is the version people want it's 28 years old super you know great shirtless abs ripped so that's what I need to stay and then what happened was I found myself at a point right even at that stage I realized this isn't healthy for me this is like not doing good things for me internally. And I remember telling my team like, hey, I would like to start getting away from that. And then I got to our show. And so I kind of wasn't. I was still

fine, but I wasn't as in that shape. And I remember getting on to our show. And right off the bat, they wanted me in that last scene where I'm talking into the voice note after being in bed with the gal, with Sasha's character. They wanted me shirtless. And I remember going, we're kind of planting a seed of this guy's pain. Does it? Kind of feels distracting. Could I just have like a shirt? And I remember, I remember our boss at one point saying, hey, man, we want that Us Weekly Body.

Oh, no. And so it's set up this thing where so now I immediately felt fraudulent. Like, oh, my brain was right. That is what is good. That is what people want. And I'm not quite there anymore. Uh-oh. Which is so heartbreaking, especially for somebody like you who's super intelligent,

who's capable of breaking down characters and presenting something, thing. Like, even just the simple thing of what you just said, like, we're dealing with this character's pain. I think it's distracting for the audience to be looking at me shirtless. It's not like you were opposed to ever being shirtless on the show. It was just a clear delineation of what's appropriate at the moment and what's not best for the character. And to be able to bring something to that, like that to the table, they should be on their knees thanking God that they got an actor who cares so much and who is capable. And instead, they're just like, oh, yeah, but we want to, we want to see you. with no shirt on like where's your nipples man blast your nips while you share your tragedy bro but in terms of is it weird it's still very weird because I will say this one tree hill obviously professionally was a great experience for me but personally was a terrible experience for me

because I came into this show at a time of my life when I was just struggling my mental health wasn't great and I had no toolkit on how to deal with it and so for the three years I was on the show It was actually a really painful, kind of lonely, dark time for me. So when we wrapped, I was very comfortable shutting the door on the show and never looking back. And then what happened was, shortly after this, I started to get into therapy. I start to really kind of grow and do the work.

And then conventions start happening. And it was this weird thing because at first I, I mean, when I finished the show, I told my team for two years, don't even submit me for jobs in Wilmington. like that's I there was so many ghosts for me there I did not want to go back and then the conventions happened initially it was I don't I don't want to have to go and pretend like I want to talk about this because I just still there was just so much bad juge because it wasn't the show's fault it was just you know how it is when you're going through a tough season whatever the backdrop is it's sort of it carries over it gets projected onto that but then we start having these conventions right and I started to sort of get to have a second experience with the show

and I got to meet all of you. It was sort of like we all got to re-meet each other because when I came on, you all had six years of enduring this. And so we all sort of got this like fresh start where I got to really have a new experience with the show which is why I'm so grateful for those conventions because now I have relationships with all of you. I have a new experience with the show.

I went back to Wilmington the first time. I was so anxious because, again, I really, there was so much baggage and pains for me there. I didn't know how it would be. And it was great. And now we're doing the show. And it's so funny because I'm able to sort of go, okay, all right, I'm ready for this. Let's do it. And is it weird?

Yeah. But I'm also so excited to do it because I don't remember a lot of it. I also watched it. My first note is, oh, my God, we were so young. Oh, isn't it crazy? We were babies. I know. And I also, last thing I'll say is, I was, and I wanted to ask you about this for when you first started the podcast, not now.

But I was curious, and this, let's circle back. This is my question for you is when you first revisited this, did you have an emotional reaction in your body when you hear the theme song? Because if I'm at a convention, it's fine. Because I'm excited. There's a lot of energy. It's just sort of background noise. If it catches me when I'm not ready for it. In the grocery store?

In the grocery store, it's, I get tight. I do too. My body kind of goes, oh. So on this episode, I thought, oh, God, how is that going to go? And it was beautiful because it didn't happen. It was joy singing instead, that beautiful song, like quicksand. And I thought, oh, look at that. They gave me a freebie, my first episode.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We ease your way in. It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years.

You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first name. native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

for me it's like um it's the same feeling as when like a person jumps out and yells boo at you and you're like wow and then you're like god what what are you doing like it it's that feeling for me when i hear it out in the world i'm like what is that why would you do that no one's doing this it's just happening okay like it's so jarring and then also embarrassing that it's jarring that it's but there is a really interesting thing like exactly what you're saying that the amount of distance we got to have in between the thing ending when we all were like let's wash our hands of it goodbye and then the conventions that I think all of us were sort of hesitant to do it first and then we started going and then we started going together and then it was like wait in a way it is like

it's like group therapy it's sort of like going back to camp or something and yeah now it's a it's a really interesting thing to go oh I guess I guess the only way out is through and like what we have talked a lot about in the first six seasons of rewatching the show and I'm really curious if it'll feel this way for you is that in a way we got to take everything that was really bad and I and I appreciate you being like it's not the show's fault Like, some of it is the show's fault, and some of it is that life is hard. And some of what's the show's fault is that they took really hard shit in everyone's lives and then put it on TV and made us act it out in front of everyone like it wasn't happening in our real lives. That is super sadistic and fucked up.

But like, this rewatch for us gals enabled us to kind of separate, like, when you sort your garbage and you're recycling. And, like, I feel like we've been able to throw the trash out and then keep. keep the good stuff. And before it was like the bags were just all jumbled together. And there is something about this, I think very similarly to when you go to therapy and you start processing through your stuff and you learn to hold yourself more accountable, but also be more gentle with yourself at the same time. Like the separateness is, is I think, the sign of growth. Yeah. And you're right. Like it's a testament to the fans that have kept us going back to Wilmington because that is what enabled us to realize we wanted to do this.

And then I didn't even realize we needed this. But now we're doing it. And it's like, whoa, I feel like I've done so much therapy by doing this podcast. And also, like, I've gone to summer camp every week with my friends. Like, how cool. So I'm excited for this part of the journey for you. Great analogy. Right?

Doesn't it feel like that? Yeah, the garbage and the recycling. It's really good. Because I do the, when I hear the theme song, especially in the grocery store, it's all. I hate it in the grocery store because I need a place to hide and you can't hide anywhere. There's no corners in the grocery store. There's nothing to tuck under. I immediately look for a place to hide when I hear that song.

But then there's another part of me that immediately wants to turn around and gather everyone in the store and have a big party and be like, hey guys, like, let's party for a second. This is my song. Come on, y'all. Because it's, there's become this separateness where it's, I still feel all the garbage, but I still also feel all the good stuff, the things that we turned into good things and amazing things that happened. So, yeah, I love that. Separating the trash and the recycling. Yeah, and it feels like with the conventions, with this podcast, it's great because it sort of feels like that whole experience is being remand for all of just the joy and the love. Yes. Yeah. It's acknowledging

the really shitty stuff that happened, but then really it's focused and what it's there to cultivate and celebrate is the joy and the love. That's why the conventions are great, right? It's because it's just a love fest. It's just people going, that was great. That thing you did. I love it. And I was going, oh, my gosh, that's so awesome.

What's up? You know what I mean? Yeah. So it's nice, getting to have a second experience with it. I've been so grateful for because had none of this existed, I think it would have just stayed the tough chapter that I just sort of left back there, you know? Yeah. Well, I love moving for.

into good space. And I love, I do. I just, I love the scene in the, the first scene with you in the office with the ball. Like it's, I know we talked about it last week. I know I brought it up earlier, but it really, it establishes you in such a cool way. Yeah. And it just makes me get who this guy is. And one of the things that was really interesting for me to watch, particularly because we talked with Hillary about how you and her have such similar energy and how you can

see that in like Clay comes in this way that feels Peyton-esque but also the thing that blew my mind re-watching this episode was seeing how Clay does a Peyton and

Quinn does a Lucas but there's also this wild mirroring in the Peyton and Lucas love story and the Clay and Quinn love story, like this boy falls for this girl who everyone tells him is unavailable to him, who's in another relationship, who's an artist, and he's pining. And I was like, wait, wait a second, because like, Chantal is Chad in certain ways, and you are Hillary in certain ways. And that, I think, is why it does work so well, because it didn't, it didn't quote, replace. It wasn't like they were trying to replace characters. They were working with

archetypes that worked, but I'd never noticed the similarity of like the first pining after her moment before. I didn't catch it when season seven was happening because I was like trying to get to know these new characters on our show and you guys. But watching you sit with Haley and Nathan on the steps at Jamie's birthday party once it's nighttime and everyone's playing football, I was like, oh my God, this is like Lucas watching Peyton draw. Like what's happening? Wow. And I'd never caught it before and it felt like a really cool little Easter egg like for our fans and for this

legacy of these Tree Hill love stories I was like oh they told us from the beginning that those two were going to end up together got it because I didn't see it until I saw it yeah he calls his shot in a great way I think one this episode excelled in a big way when it came to introducing characters

yes I agree that the because like last week's episode I talked about the initial scene with Clay was me just standing in front of 200 people in an auditorium just talking. Yeah. And luckily they were wise enough to realize that was very boring and not affected. But so Clay's intro was great because it really tells you a very clear picture of who he is. Quinn's intro scene was so good, so incredibly charming.

Chantelle played the hell out of that. It was so good. And then India's intro. Oh, my gosh. Oh, yeah. That was fun too. She crushed that. I don't want to get ahead of myself,

but she has maybe the line of the episode when Joy, you come in, you're like, oh, yeah, sorry, I've just been busy the career and the parenting stuff. And she goes, oh, yeah, we lost Payton to one of those. And you go, sorry? And she goes, kids, family. Iconic.

I was like, oh, I went. It was so good. So, so good. And I loved Chantel's intro too because all the still photographs, it really caught my eye. It was something so different than what we've ever seen on the show before. So taking the time to watch her take those photos and see all the different environments. It was just a little clue to the audience to let us know we're entering into new territory. And it's okay. We've got you. And I loved that they gave us moments with these images of someone's artwork, but it didn't feel like they were having another girl who draws. come in. Like, we spent six seasons close up on Peyton's drawings. And it was really nice to get these close up freeze frames on imagery, but have them be photographs instead. Because again,

it was really wise. I thought it was a smart way to thread the needle where it was giving us something familiar and yet completely new. I thought it was a really, really good choice. And I loved that they were also making very clear that there had been a big time jump, because it was the end of the first NBA season. Jamie had Nathan's Bobcats card. We see that, you know, Brooke and Julian have been in this long-distance relationship. We cut to New York,

and Millie is now Brooke Davis 2.0, running that office, you know, just crushing it. Lisa was so perfect in that scene, bop, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, giving orders, talking about coffee. Yeah. Green is the new orange. Like, the whole thing was just so yummy.

And to your point, Rob, they introduced and also reintroduced people really well. Because they said, oh, everyone's in a new life stage, whether you know them or not. And they made it clear who all these people were in really artful ways, I thought. Yeah, I mean, you got the such a great, the upgrade of familiarity but something new. Being able to watch Brooke and Julia. I mean, you guys were in from here to eternity. The whole show. show was the two of you in the sand at the beach at the red carpet. I mean, how much fun did you

have shooting all that stuff? It was the best montage of the whole series. I mean, it was really fun. I do remember we had to go all the way. I want to say it was like a random part of Carolina beach we had to go to to film the beach scenes because they, that day sequence, because they needed a really steep like beach. Like the sand had to be at such an angle. to get the waves crashing because it wasn't working at Reitzville. So we had to drive really, really far. And then they kept moving us around because the tide obviously is like shifting. And they just, they wanted that big wave crash.

You know, Clark Mathis, who directed, who's so lovely, really wanted to get the scene right because it was supposed to look like that old-timey movie. And by the end of it, I was cracking up when they do the pan up our bodies, because you can see if you really like freeze frame how much sand is even like stuck in the divots of like my spine and my back we were just i mean we had just gotten tossed around like it it looked so romantic and i remember by the end of that feeling like a drowned rat and just being like there is so much sand everywhere i need to take a shower please let me go home and um yeah it was just oh boy it was wild. My note on that scene was

beautiful to watch, miserable to shoot. Uh-huh. Yeah. Uh-huh. I'm sure. Because you're cold, you're getting water. Trying to kiss romantically while you're getting water splashed in your face is so hard to do. Oh, yeah. James and I had to do a lot of that. A lot of kissing in rain and water. And it's just, it is miserable. And it's not great either to

have to shoot at the beach as an actor because again the world assumes we're the most comfortable confident people but you know as a woman like you're in a bikini you're essentially in your underwear and there's like 200 people on the beach just taking your picture and I'm like could you maybe not take my picture while I'm standing here essentially in my underwear like I don't consent to this I feel so uncomfortable and you can't really stand up for yourself because it's a yeah it's a public beach and you know we didn't work for people who were willing to like put up privacy screens for us and so I was like cool I was like this all makes me feel so uncomfortable but it still looked so beautiful the glamour the romance I mean all of it

in the edit it's so glamorous Brooke and Julian the whole episode was just wall to wall gorgeous romance yes I loved it those night scenes on the beach oh yeah with the fire my only issue with the night scene on the beach was this. When he goes, do you know what I want? And he whispers in your ear to skinny dip. I just thought, there's no way in a cold night that the thing you want to do is go get into the cold water with her and then be sandy, like the crumagin adult and he went, you guys have houses. Why is it? Did you want to go in the sandy cold water right now? Here's what I will say in Julian's defense. It was July in North Carolina. So it was like a hundred degrees at night.

Fair. So if that helps your inner curmudgeon, it was not cold when we shot this. It wasn't one of those like spring break episodes that we shoot in February and we're all sobbing because it's 30 degrees out. It actually was quite warm. But I just want to shout out,

and our friends at home have heard his name a lot, Peter Kowalski, our DP. The way he lit, those nighttime scenes for Austin and I on the beach with that bonfire light on our faces that made all the, everything behind us go really blue. It was really, it was like breathtakingly beautiful to me as a viewer to look at.

I was like, oh, I feel like I can smell the saltwater and I know it's warm and I know what that balmy breeze is. I got a sense of where we were from the light temperature. And like that takes, he's so talented. He's amazing. You both every scene, though, it was funny because I had a moment going, wow, my friends are super beautiful. Like you guys in the limo, you've got the smoky eye, he's in the tucks, and you're in your chemistry, but the two of your chemistry is just so easy and fantastic. But every scene you're in, it was like a vanity poster of just like how good it could, how love could be.

It was just, it was beautiful and idyllic wall to wall. I sort of feel like they really wanted to give that to Brooke at this point too, because she really went through the ringer for the first six seasons. And I think they were like, you know what? We've really had this chick on like tumble dry, you know, for long enough. Like, let's just let her have her like happy, you know, happy ever after moment. It was very sweet. I think the show needed it too. It needed the relief. Like we've got all this stuff coming up with Nathan and Haley and all that tension that's going to start. Yeah. And all of the unpredictable things with Dan that are coming up and the comic relief with mouth and skills, which I just talk about somebody being naked.

The odd couple. So good. But yeah, we needed the romance. It's an integral part of our show. And you guys were able to show up for that, which I loved. And also it was very smart because it's a very quick, almost throwaway moment, but in no way it's actually a throw away moment when we're panning off of you and you're talking to him, when you're standing up with the ocean at your back and he's sitting on the beach and you're like,

I made some space in the guest closet. And then when you walk over after he talks about the movie and we see in the sand that you had written marry me it's that payoff is so much greater when we've seen this whole episode so far

just how good it could be A, it makes sense why you'd ask and B it makes the oh moment that much hit that much harder yeah okay mouth and skills

oh my God apparently our other favorite couple in this show those two like the naked off is so good and so funny and the fact that it begins

from the cut from Nathan's Axe Body Spray commercial to mouth using the body spray yeah like it's just it's so funny because it's how good it could be on TV

with like the NBA player and then you know it's like the dude at home trying to figure it out on his like you know secondhand leather couch and and the fact that they just

go tip for tat is so they're just so good together i just want them forever yeah i'm dying good to know the rumors aren't true slam like perfect her delivery so first of all i thought the choice to have mouth eating a sandwich i laughed so hard because when you think of being naked probably one of the few things you ever want to be doing is eating a messy sandwich you know and so i i love that choice but When Lisa walks in, her delivery on, okay, okay. It is so funny. Her timing is perfect. And I could have watched a whole buddy movie with Antoine and Mouth doing this.

It was so good. Yeah, where is that? I need that movie ASAP. I agree. I need so much more of them. And I also, I love, again, there is so much larger than life stuff on our show, which is, look, it's a TV show. It's why things work. Like we want to aspire, we want to fantasize with people.

But I love the rootedness of these two best friends who live together that are trying to figure it out. And they both want to get more serious with their girlfriends. And one of them has to be like, yeah, I'd love to move out, but I can't afford it, which is real life in your 20s. Like my best friends from college and I, in our 20s, P.S. while I was on our show, like, I chipped in for keys to a two-bedroom apartment in New York and would, like, fly up for the weekend and sleep on the couch. Like, none of us could afford anything more than we made it work. And I just, I love the comedy in it, but I also like that they keep us grounded because, you know, the other scenes are, yeah, we're with, like, the fancy sports agent and the

Nat Geo photographer at the NBA player and the rock star wife's kids' birthday. Like, everything is so fantastical that I, I don't know, I just love, like, the cute, buddies in their apartment. And they're sweet to each other. I love a dude who's emotionally available. And I like that the silliness of that scene ends with mouth going, hey, dude, I love you. We're still friends.

I still want to hang with you. I'm just trying to sort of level up my game here, you know? That was nice that it wasn't just a bit and then a joke in the scene's over. Yeah. Yeah, I like healthy, vulnerable, safe masculinity. It's like, it's not that hard. Look at these two. They're great.

It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball.

Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart, radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Jamie's birthday party. There's two things I noticed that cracked me up. The first is it's a close shot on your face, Joy, as you're getting ready outside, right? And it hasn't revealed the party yet.

And you hear Jamie off screen say, like, Mom, and you have a moment. Like, you're nervous. on what his reaction's going to be. You're like, okay, here we go. Okay, come on out. And the camera pans around to what looks more like a small county fair

than a seven-year-old's birthday party. And I laughed like, what would you be nervous about when you have that production? They are living in like this new palatial, whatever this new house is with this massive pool. This is the first time at this house, right? Yes.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. This is a new house. Clay has been turning up for Nathan, getting him lots of commercials, apparently. And Nathan is, I mean, I don't know what Haley's doing because I don't think she's certainly not paying for that house on a teacher salary. And she's trying to run the label now. But I don't know if that's working. Well, I'm apparently not given Miranda's interest. What is going on? But they got this killer spot, this killer new pad, magical yard. They've got a dock that runs out to the river. It's wonderful. There's also a bit in that party where, and I actually remember doing this when we're, it's a walk and talk.

It's actually the scene where Clay and Quinn meet the first time where she walks up and has that hilarious little, little shot at him about getting Nathan's money. But a tray walks by with cookies. I think why it's, I think myself and you and James are talking. joy and I grab a cookie off of it and I take a bite and we're talking and I think I take the whole tray and then about 30 seconds later a server walks up and I hand them the tray and then put the cookie I just took a bite of took a took a right back in with the rest of the cookies no no you do not clay Evans the original double dipper how gross is that I missed that I think I thought it was funny and that no one I just I remember just doing it going like

I wonder if they'll even notice. This will even get in there. And then I watched it going, that's so disgusting and funny. No, but they didn't notice. That's a thing. They were, oh, man, that's so good. And that makes me want to start really watching your performances from now on because I know that side of you that like,

but also this is you and Hillary. You are the same. You two in the party are like, mm-hmm, ha-ha, ha, ha. Waiting for one of us to look and catch you. I'm sitting around all day in my trailer waiting to be shot because there's 25 other people in this scene. I'm so bored. I'm going to steal cookies and see if anybody notices it. It's so good.

It is so funny. I thought your stuff with Chantelle was fantastic, Joy. You guys have such an ease in a natural chemistry. Yeah, it was. It was always really easy to work with Chantel. I mean, she and I, we always got on really well. It felt like sisters right away. and there was just nothing it never felt competitive it never felt like we were always just very

we had great conversations um she was lovely and professional and easy to work with and um we had fun yeah it's also really nice seeing haley get that chemistry with quinn because so much of the Haley and Taylor relationship was so combative. Yeah. And it's nice to be adults and see women enjoy each other, you know? It was so nice for us in these later seasons, like, to get Lisa and then when Chantal came, and then, you know, Jana's coming. And it was like, everyone was just so sweet.

Like, I remember in the first couple weeks of this year, all of us being at dinner, being like, wow. Yeah. How cool. Like, because you never know. And it's cool to. see it now and like watch you guys because there is there is like an on-screen chemistry that does already feel very familiar between the two of you and I think without that it wouldn't

have sold for us as an audience so well you know yeah oh good yeah I think you know what you were saying about the women coming on the show and everything it's like we were so far down the line by then I wonder if the powers that be that we're trying to um you know, pit us against each other in the beginning and just doing, working so hard overtime to triangulate that they had sort of given up by then because it was so like the their damage had been done and it was just like they were able to, now it didn't matter so much. They were more of us and so maybe they were less worried about us all banding together to be, to negotiate as a team and things like that. So I wonder if that's why it was so much

easier at this stage in the show for all of us to just kind of be friendly and get along and not feel competitive because there wasn't this behind the scenes like mess happening. I mean, I love that positive take. I wish it had lasted longer than just the beginning of season seven with the powers that be. But, you know, they didn't give us long, but I will say at least there was like this lovely moment. And I think Jamie's party felt like. like that. Like it was so nice to have you guys as like our new compadres there. I thought the characters were introduced like in in such great ways and everyone had such great chemistry together. And even, you know, even the fact that when everyone gathers around for Jamie to open his

gifts and you've got this hilarious moment of skills giving him his quote, vintage CD collection. And Miss Morin's ribbon him and then you you like come in with the, you know, with the big Dick Energy and you get like Jerry Rice to walk in the door. I was like what the fuck is going on here? Like the whole thing it felt on screen like that feeling you're describing I think Joy like we all

went oh my God this feels really good we are going to be okay because two of our friends had left like we didn't know what was going to happen and it felt very rife with potential and I loved that and I loved I have no idea who at the studio pulled

a favor to get Jerry Rice on our show but it was like honestly so iconic his cameo was very cool was so good yeah full disclosure I had forgotten so when that happened I went oh I guess I met Jerry Rice and then I remember then I remember the day but one thing I think the episode did very well was that there was also still enough connective tissue to Lucas and Peyton to where it didn't feel like they were just pretending that that was just over and gone like I love Lucas gifting Jamie the basketball ball. I love when Nathan and Jamie go to the court, they play a game of Lucas instead of a game of horrors. Brooke is talking about Peyton a lot. And how she's the one who left. Yes. So it was the

right amount of here are new people, but also they're still in our orbit, the people that left. Yeah, they did a great job of just letting us know that we've got you. Like we know why you're here. Don't worry. We've got your audience. Stay with us. And I appreciate that they were thoughtful enough to think about how to allow those shifts to inform our characters. Like for me, you know, I also forgot about Jerry Rice to be clear, but I, you know, Brooke didn't make the joke. Clay did. I forgot that Brooke got really vulnerable in this episode with Julian because he's away working and Peyton's gone. For Brooke Davis to look up at that man and say, I'm really lonely. because her partner is long distance and her best friend doesn't live at home anymore.

It makes a really interesting argument when they're in the limo and he says, you can run your company from anywhere. Why do you need to stay here? And for her, Tree Hill is home. Tree Hill is home. But it's starting to change. And I liked, in that moment, it sort of made my, like, you know, when you have that beat right before you cry and your breath like catches in your throat, I was watching the episode.

and I was like, I'm just so lonely. And I was like, oh, my God. Because I forgot that in that moment, Brooke sort of got to be the audience's voice and be like, I don't know if I understand what's happening here. But by the end, it's like, we're going to be okay. Like, we're here and we're building like a new, you know, future, family, et cetera. It felt nice.

Like I did, to your point, Joy, I feel like they were trying to say, we've got you guys. Yeah, I agree. And the Jerry Rice bit, I thought was, I agree with you. That was so successful because the scene that killed me was when they're playing, again, another really terrific Quinn scene. But when they're in the huddle, you know, this is when Nathan and Clay and Haley are watching from the steps. And Quinn says, all right, we have the greatest wide receiver in the history of the game. Jamie, we're going to you.

And if you watch, you have to watch, Jamie does, he has such a beautiful moment where, He does a fist pump, but he also kind of, like, nods his head, like, you're making the right call going to me. Yes. And it left Jerryd going, what am I going to do? And she goes, block. And he says, 307 touchdowns and they got me blocking. Darn it. It was like, oh, Jerry Rice, you are infinitely lovable.

Really fun. Yes. Really fun. And you never know, you know, somebody like that comes in and does a cameo and you're like, oh, boy, are they going to be great or are they going to be very wooden? And Jerry Rice turns out is a good. great actor. It's so easy. I'm like, sir, can you, can you like come and play with us some more?

What I'd love, I have to say, because I'm looking at my notes, one of the things I'm obsessed with, and we've circled back to the dynamic of clay essentially, like, pining, you know, after the unavailable woman, which I love, the thing that makes me giggle, you know, with our team of mostly male writers is that they leaned so hard into like the classic joke of like, she knows sports, like hot jig who knows sports, sports. And it works so beautifully between you guys, between Clay and Quinn. And if it had just been the joke where like she ran up to you at the beginning and said the thing about Nathan and all the stats and walked away, you'd be like, okay. But then to see her out, like playing football with all the boys and when Jerry and skills are running all the kids around and then you realize everybody else is involved, like it took it a step further.

it gave Clay like something very real to watch and you get to see you know to the point of introducing these characters well you get to see Quinn's relationship with Jamie as his aunt you really get to see this family and knowing what comes watching you kind of pine after her with Haley and Nathan on the stairs I was like oh oh it's going to get weird because you've already told Nathan that the hot chicks coming over tonight you know it's it just was set up so well, and I loved it. Speaking of this party, I have to say there's one thing on this show that really, it's funny when things pop up that date us, that when you watch it, you're like, oh,

this is. So, well, no, it's just, and I don't know if you guys even know this, but kids' birthday parties, nobody opens presents at the party anymore. This is like a new wave thing where the kids all, you just set the gift on a table, and then the kid opens them at home later on their own time. But I remember every birthday party, there was like a time for presents. You sat down and everybody, right? Yeah.

Don't you remember this? You'd sit down and you'd open your gifts from everybody. You'd thank everyone there in person. And then that was like an event within every single birthday party. And it doesn't happen anymore. And it was really funny because I saw all that huge table of gifts. And I watched Jamie walk over and start to open. I was like, oh my God, that's right.

We don't do this anymore. It doesn't happen. It's so sad. Wow. Yeah, I mean, meaningless in the context of the story, but I thought it was funny. No, but kind of interesting, right? It's like when you go back and you watch the early seasons and everyone's opening their flip phones and you're like, oh, God. Yeah, totally.

So funny. It was also a little strange to me that, and I get why it can work, but that a totally random woman dressed like she's going to a club just slides up next to James. It was weird. And talks about his career, asks for a cell. selfie. It was, I get it though. Like when it's a party, it's crazy as a parent. You have a thousand different things going on. So I, I will allow it. But it was one of those moments where I just thought, really? Really? The strange woman. You know. Yeah. For me, what helped was that there was a crowd and he turned and then turned back. And I was like, I could buy that she's one of the

elementary school moms that he just doesn't know because he's also been on the road all season. Yeah. But what was more alarming for me was like, how'd she get there? Because these two, to your point, Joy, they live in this big new house, which I would assume if he's in the NBA is like in some sort of gated community. I'm like, did she take a canoe up the intra-coastal and like come in from the river? This is crazy enough to do that. I'm saying.

I mean, honestly, she might have. That was the one thing I didn't bump on because when we panned around the party, to see the scope of it, you saw that their backyard kind of just opens up to beach. That's true. I thought, it's not hard to find out where someone lives, so if that's the case, I could see her just walking up to the beach, and

it's a crowded party. Yeah. But yeah, it was, you knew the second that started happening. I was like, oh. Yeah, stranger danger. I don't remember what happens. I'm really, like, this is fun. No, no, I do not remember.

Oh, my God, I do. Because when the episode So it starts. By the way, wait a second. We didn't even talk about the fact that the episode opens on Dan Scott's talk show. Oh my gosh. The clock. The clock. And when I saw that woman and I remember and then it cuts back to Dan and his talk show is called redemption. And he's talking about how what you've done is not who you will be. It's who you've been. But not I was like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. I remember everything. I'm so excited for you to see what happens. I sure do. I sure do. That whole thing with Dan was so effective. It was, I was watching it. My note is just, Paul is great. He's phenomenal. But it's,

it's so funny to watch someone and be so engrossed and also so badly want to punch him in the face. Yeah. Like, he's so smug and engaging at the same time doing that whole, that whole speech. Yep. That takes a special skill. This, you know, this theme of forgiveness.

for Dan is really interesting. Like I said, I don't, I don't remember what happens, but I suspect he's being super manipulative, again, like, as usual. But it did make me curious. Jamie asks Nathan if he's forgiven, Dan on his birthday. Yes. And I don't know why. I went on a dive.

It made me curious about the origin of the word forgiveness, because we talk about this with Dan a lot on the show. The farthest back that I could find was a Hebrew word called Nasnasat. I wrote it down to. It means to lift up or lift off and remove. And in Latin in the 1300s, it means passing over of an offense without punishment, which is essentially saying,

you deserve punishment for what you've done. I choose not to enact it. So I'm lifting like up or off the burden of judgment and my desire to see you suffer it. So when Jamie asks Nathan, if he's forgiven Dan, and you can see this moment pass over James' face, and it's so subtle,

but I read it as Nathan realizing there's this fine line between going cold and becoming immune and actual forgiveness. And Nathan's, it seems like he's realizing, yeah, I've gone cold to Dan. I put up a wall so I don't feel bad emotions toward him anymore. But have I actually forgiven and released him from punishment, release myself from the desire to see him suffer consequences, which considering everything Dan's done feels like an impossibly tall order. It's like Nathan knows it's too unfair to himself to just forgive and say, like, I don't deserve justice or too unfair to the people who Dan's hurt to say they don't deserve

justice. It's too outrageous to forgive. So he's honest and he says, no, I haven't. And I loved his honesty. And it really made me think about my own life and wrestle with like the big bads in my life because, yeah, I want to think of myself as a forgiving person. But, you know, Jamie says, I think you're big enough to forgive him. You're Nathan Scott, which is such a great line. But it made me wonder if I've been actually truly forgiving or if I've just been shutting off my emotions and calling it forgiveness so that I can feel better about myself. And is forgiveness something Dan should get? Like, what are you guys? Sorry, it's a long spiel, but like I have a lot of thoughts about this.

And I want to know what you guys think about the concept of forgiveness and redemption for someone like Dan, all things considered. That first definition you gave, I think it said to lift off. And so that's a really interesting. take because if you look at it like that it's not about you doing something for the other person it's actually it's an act of sort of self-love or self-care to relieve yourself of a burden you've been caring yeah yeah because you're holding the judgment over someone right you're saying like i'm i've decided you need to suffer this so to release it and like let it go that's interesting but i hate dan scott well here's the thing i think that look

anger can be so poisonous. Like, everyone always says you forgive for you, not for the other person. I think it's why that phrase forgive, but don't forget, comes around. The idea is that if you can really do it, you can unburden yourself. Yeah. Doesn't mean you erase a boundary. It doesn't mean you let that person back into your life. Like, you know, it's certainly something I've had to think about.

I think we all have. but like, you know, whether it's an injury, the, you know, to everything 20 years ago or last year, it's like, what's the point in being angry at someone who betrays you? Then you're just angry. You were betrayed either way. If you can see it, release it, fortify yourself against it. I think that that's great. I don't think forgiveness has to be like some big kumbaya.

a thing. And I think it's so interesting to hear the way you read it because when I watched the scene between Nathan and Jamie, that moment for me, I sort of read as all his complex adult man feelings and realizing he can't share those with his seven-year-old son. Like a seven-year-old can't process that. You know, did I forgive him for ruining my birthday and making me play in a pee-wee game. There's a lot more to it than that. Yeah, exactly. You know, I, I love all of it because in a way, it's the simplicity that a child is seeing and the complexity that the adult has experienced. And I loved the meeting of those experiences on screen. And I think forgiveness is incredibly complex for that reason. I think we're all much more capable of forgiving now at this age

than we were 10 years ago, let alone 20 years ago. And I think those things are important. Like, there are people whose actions, you know, a decade ago would have still enraged me. And now I just say, like, well, it must be sad that you were in a place that that was what you chose. I hope you're well. I'm certainly not ever going to, like, let you back into my life. But I'll wish you well. I'll like, I'll ask how you're doing if I see you out and about somewhere.

And that, that for me feels more like the forgiven for, forgive, but don't forget. But what do you do with the, with the, knowing that you've been wronged? Call Trevor. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I, look, I think here's what I will say is we've all been wronged. And we've, we all, by the way, we have. villains in our stories, right? And we're all the villain in somebody else's story.

Yeah. Whether or not it's accurate. Like, for sure. But to other people, each of us has probably done something unforgivable. Absolutely. And we can all sit and go, well, actually, the way it went down was this. Okay. It's all perception. It's like, at this point, for what? Like, what are we arguing it for? What are we fighting over it for? Like, what are you going to do? Like, publish your text messages and emails, timestamped and dated to prove that you weren't the one and the wrong? For what? For fucking who?

Like, why? For me, that's part of the ability to be a more boundaryed and yet also more gentle adult is to say, you know what, that's where my boundary is and I'm also going to wish you well, because otherwise the lack of, quote, forgiving poisons me, not you. Yeah.

I see, I think I grew up with forgiveness was I, I want to help you feel better about what you did. Whereas now forgiveness is, I'm dropping the rock I've been caring. I'm going to let go of the resentment because it's not serving me anymore. Yeah, I love that. So it's no longer about helping you feel better because it used to be a performative act of service where now it's just, I don't want this to consume me all day, every day. So it's just like you're saying, it's forgiven, forget, you know, take it someplace healthy, but it's no longer going to take up, you know, bandwidth. I will choose to not allow it to take up the bandwidth, not that it doesn't deserve to or doesn't want to.

Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know. I think about a character like Dan and how complex he is and how much we, like even what you're saying, he's compelling, even though you want to punch him in the face. And there's always this sense of like, God, I would love to see Dan Scott actually change his life, actually be redeemed, actually become a better person. And, but nobody would be willing, nobody in our show would be willing to actually offer him the forgiveness that that requires. Yeah, but if I may, I think we have to be really, really careful about like, frankly, I don't know how else to put it because I think there's a lot of, you know, this language that we hear that comes from. religious tradition like we have to be really careful that we're not trying to play god that we're not trying to prove how pure we are by our ability to forgive anyone absolutely you know and i and i think

that idea that like no one would be willing to offer him true forgiveness like i don't know that that's necessarily another human's job at the end of the day i think no i i agree and i just think it's frankly really important for us to be willing to accept that other people's like boundaries and levels of tolerance for certain things might not be what ours are and to figure that out like person to person because one of the things I've learned, you know, throwing it back to Trevor, excellent callback Rob, is like there are amazing things that our jobs have given to us. You know, like I'm incredibly proud of my work ethic. I'm incredibly proud of how much I'll show up. But the way we were taught to, like, show up and the hours we were taught to work and the sleeplessness we were taught to endure, like, kind of gnarly to sit with a trained professional who's like, your threshold for suffering is outsized and too high. And you need to readjust and recalibrate because what you think of as neutral is bad and what you think of as bad is abusive. And it's like, oh, shit. So, you know,

yes because it's a story and we all love stories and we love fairy tales and like we wouldn't be crazy actors in the circus if we didn't do I ultimately want to be like wouldn't it be so cool and then I'm like yeah or maybe people just have like boundaries and don't want to suffer with this man who murdered his brother who was their uncle and I don't know I don't know I don't know that I think we have a unique ability as humans to offer each other like offer each other's radical wild space to become better people. And sometimes that happens by someone giving you an unreasonable amount of forgiveness. And it is a fine line between just shutting off my emotions and being like, nope, I'm just not going to allow that person in my life anymore.

Or being recognizing like, oh, no, this is unhealthy for me. I'm not supposed to be the person who's offering this for, you know, it's a case-by-case basis, I guess. That's what I think it is. Because, you know, like one of the privileges of my life has been sitting. with inmates in like maximum security prisons working with the anti-recidivism coalition. And I have wept and been held by men who've done the most terrible things who are also weeping. Like I've seen like redemption and healing for people who society has said like irredeemable, lock them up and throw away the key. I will call that one of the privileges of my life forever.

I don't know that the family members of the people who they committed, you know, crimes against need to do that job. And I think that that is actually one of the, like, that has been such a teacher for me about the value of really being willing to create community care because we have our community. Like, I'm so grateful for our little bizarre circus family that we built in Wilmington. And I think when you get to lean on your communities, it's so important. But I think sometimes we forget that community can come in all of these new and unknown places. And like sometimes you need to build community with people you don't know at all to uplift these certain parts of society to take off that vest to put down that rock. Like I think it's part of why I'm like really passionate about the social framework and like social services, honestly, because without them, things fall apart. And without them, some of these people do fall through the cracks.

So it's like, I don't know. Does Haley need to be the person who forgives Dan Scott? Maybe he needs to go to a men's group and get his shit together talking to people like Rob. About going to therapy. You know what I'm saying? You know, I'm going to say, as a viewer, what I love about it is that, first of all, I always want to root for a comeback story. And Dan Scott has the potential for the greatest comeback story. But I also love that he already has developed a platform or seeing.

He already has people buying his potential bullshit. And because he has, we think, we believe he has the potential for greatness, but we've also seen his capacity for evil. It makes it this really uncomfortable tightrope of like, all right, you charlatan, you've already got some people fooled. We're here for the ride, but our guard is super duper up. It's like Shakespearean level drama. It's so yummy.

Yes. But also now that we're talking about this joy, you've really made me realize the fact that we never had to see Dan in like group therapy with other inmates. I'm furious. What a wasted opportunity. That's when he would have learned how to manipulate the whole system. It would have been so cool, though. Because they could have made you think he was being redeemed. And then you'd be like, oh, look, he took advantage of that guy.

And it would fuel exactly what Rob's talking about. It's like War the Roses level shit. It's so good. It is so good. And the generational opportunity for it, too. Like, if we think about Shakespeare, we have loved, you said it. We have loved Nathan Scott's comeback. We have rooted for the comeback.

Don't call it a comeback. Hey, Q, guess what? It is a comeback. Like, we are here for it. And so I think that adds to, like, will we or won't we with Dan Scott? And it's, it's yummy. I love it. It's like that great office meme of Michael Scott where it's, I'm ready to be hurt again.

when he's throwing himself back in the dating board that's how I feel Dan Scott where it's like well I'm on the ride and I am ready to be hurt again. Yeah. Oh God. Yeah, somebody just hand me the fork I'll stab it in my own eye. It may look different but native culture is very alive.

My name is Nicole Garcia and on Burn Sage Burn Bridges we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric that this is something we've been doing

for the hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con

or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I love talking about this stuff with you guys. Oh, man.

Well, it was a great episode. This will be fun to do next week, too. What do we have next? Well, we have a listener question. Yeah. Nichelle says, my question's for someone who has never been to Wilmington before describe the town in three words. Humid. That's my word.

Everybody gets a word. I was going to say warm. But like, you know, temperature and emotionally, warm. I was going to say cozy. You were? That was going to be my other word. I was like warm, cozy, warm cozy. And I have to say, having gone back with new eyes,

idyllic. Oh, yeah. It's beautiful, it's small, it's quaint, it's picturesque, you know? All right, we're into five words now, Rob. I'm a rule breaker. I'm the bad drama queen. I don't follow the rules, guys. That was seven words.

You're welcome, Nichol. Let's spin a wheel, kids. Rob, you read it. It's your very first wheel spin. Oh, my goodness. Most likely to win a dance contest. Well, I don't want to, you know, get ahead of ourselves here, but we get to see Clay do some dancing in a future episode,

and it is not pretty, so I'm going to go ahead and pull Clay's name out of the running. I was going to jump from a character and go straight into a castmate and say, hands down, Lee Norris. Yeah, Lee Norris. Like, he's very good. Well, Mouth, too. Yeah, honestly, you're not wrong. Mouth jumped up on that, on this Sparkle Classic and really saved the day.

It's true. Okay, it's Lee all around. Oh, also in real life, it would be, um, uh, oh, I buy my blanking on, Jamie's name. Jackson. Jackson, thank you. Remember when Jackson, we were doing that panel or something, and Jackson had like the green man costume? Yes. And he just went out and danced for about seven minutes straight.

We're like, how much energy does this kid have? He's incredible. He can cut a rug. He really can. All right. Next episode. Kids will be back next week, season seven, episode two. What are you willing to lose?

Okay, that feels very on point for the end of our discussion here about forgiveness. Let's see what's coming next. Maybe there'll be a part two to that as well. Thanks, guys. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's O-T. Or email us at drama queens at iHeartRadio.com.

See you next time. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Dreamer for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. Smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens.

It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. podcast.