Drama Queens - Sarah Shahi - Part 1

Episode Date: February 18, 2026

Sarah Shahi has spent years playing fearless, complicated women — but now, anticipation builds for the highly awaited premiere of Paradise Season 2, Sarah is telling her own story.    From the cultural roots that shaped her to the public heartbreak that forced a reinvention, Sarah gets candid about desire, motherhood, ambition, and what it really takes to stop shrinking. With her new book Life Is Lifey, she’s done playing it safe. This one is raw, revealing, and definitely spicy.   Get your copy of "Life Is Lifey: The A to Z's of Navigating Life's Messy Middle" here.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hi, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hey, Wipsmarties. Welcome back to the podcast. Today we are going to interview an author whose book I adore, who you probably know because she also happens to be an incredibly accomplished actress

with a fascinating story. Sarah Shahi is here today, and she is not known for playing it safe. as an actor, an author, a former NFL cheerleader. She studied opera. She has built a career pushing boundaries. She gravitates towards characters who hold power and vulnerability, like the incredible woman she played on sex life. Her character in the hit Political Murder Mystery Paradise,

which is coming back for season two on February 23rd. She's also managing to find the time to film the sequel to Red White and Royal Blue and is publishing her first book, Life is Life Is Lifey, that offers an unfiltered and laugh out loud reflection on resilience, womanhood, sex, power, and the messy middle where real growth happens. Let's dive in with Sarah Shahi.

So beautiful. I'm so good. I've been thinking about you. I'm so happy you're here. And I'm like, God, we have been trying to hang out since we saw each other at the airport. I know. That's so crazy.

I feel like you have lived nine lives since then, and I have two. So this catch up will probably cover a lot of things. I love it. Are you home in L.A.? I am. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just got back a couple days ago. Where were you?

I was all over. I was in London doing a movie, and then I went to, and then I was on book door. So then we were in London, New York, Nashville, Miami. Austin, and then, yeah, I just got back a couple days ago. Wow. Yeah. So it was cool. You're trying to figure out what time zone you're into.

The amount of times I wake up in the morning this last week and I'm like, where am I? Yeah. Like, which hotel, what state, what time? Like, where is this? But, yeah, no, it's just, you know, it's like I had a partner one time who didn't understand that like it's not being ungrateful to. say like I'm tired or venting about a really hard schedule like I am equally grateful like I'm allowed to say I'm fucking tired and still love what I do at the same time it doesn't mean I'm not grateful

you know what I mean so it's like and I've thought about that often on on like this time of my life because I'm like how lucky am I that I get to be tired from doing something that I love so much and something that I created you know so um but yeah But no, I definitely need a vacation girl. I feel you. Oh, honey, I feel you. Yeah. Really interesting.

I've thought a lot about that. A friend of mine, likewise, said to me once, everybody complains about their job. And just because other people think your job is fancy, does not mean your job is not really hard. It's all relative, isn't it? Yeah. And she was like, it's okay for you to say, this is hard. Yeah. You're a human.

You're not a robot. You're not an avidavit. tar. And it really reminded me. I was like, oh, right. Like, you know, a CEO who makes 40 times what I make a year is complaining about his job too. So like, I'm allowed to have hard days and then be like, wow, I can't believe I'm so lucky that this is my job. It's both. Exactly. Exactly. You can carry both at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the things I just am obsessed with you about, I mean, aside from like personally, but professionally is the way you do your job. And you do all of it.

And you do it with grace and you do it with fire. And you are one of those people that I observe as being completely on, not to say that you don't carry fear. It's like you're just not intimidated enough by what you want to do that you don't do it. Are you talking about on screen or are you talking about all of it life? In every way. Like your job's on screen. Your life choices.

This book you've written like all. All of it. And I, you're just consistently one of the women I think about when I think about brave women, when I'm trying to encourage yourself to be brave. I mean it. And I, I know we like jumped right in because I'm so happy to see you. But like, one of the things I normally ask people right when we start is if you see yourself, versions of yourself, traits in yourself in younger you.

Like if you got to interact with. Sarah at eight or nine years old. Like, would you be interacting with a brave little girl? Or is that something you've had to learn through your life? It's something I've really had to learn, you know. And I think it's interesting because I think one of the dumbest things I've ever heard in my life is when people say, oh, don't be afraid. Or, you know, that's not that scary because everyone's fear factor is different, right?

And it's something that I talk about in the book. and what I had to learn, you know, I had a very interesting upbringing. My mom is incredible. Like, I have had an abusive father. I talk about this in the book. He held a gun to my head. My mom and I were in and out of women's shelters at one point in my life. And she really, and she was always able to take a situation, like, even that.

I remember one time she woke me up in the middle of the night. I was probably about five or six years old. And she was like, are you ready? Are you ready to go on like a really? fun adventure and we're going to go on a sleepover. You know, it wasn't this like panic. Right. And so I feel like my outlook, which I have noticed, is not the norm for most people.

My outlook happens to be very glass, more glass half full than half empty. And that was something that I learned from a young age. But courage is something that like we have to actively practice because the way our brains are wired. Our brains are wired for fight or flight. We're wired for survival. So if there's a situation that feels scary to us, obviously our natural instinct is to retreat or to not go forward, which is why, you know, if we just take it back to relationships or any type of dynamic in life, we would rather choose a familiar hell than an unfamiliar mystery, potentially. But I have always thought.

that not having fear is stupid because it's a very natural thing to have. But I also have learned to have a relationship with my fear or my nerves. And I've been able to look at it and say, okay, I'm going to take you in and I'm going to see what you're trying to teach me. And I'm going to walk with you anyway. And we're going to go do this thing. That's really scary. So, yeah, that's just how I've always. And in terms of that, that's something I've had to learn.

as I've gotten older and as life has gotten trickier and having children and, you know, standing up to people and really using your voice. Yeah, that was something I had to learn later in life. Yeah. It's really interesting because, you know, talk about the mark of a healed person, right? You can talk about something really extreme in a way that is like talking about the weather, like the experiences you had as a kid, what you were dealing with, with a real. really abusive parent.

Yeah. And one of the things I've had to do on my own journey to figure out my own is go like, oh, there were things I learned, there were experiences I had that felt normal to me that were not. So my scale of like what's really bad or scary, what deserves fear versus like what joy should look like was really out of whack. do you feel like you had to recalibrate where your fear lived, like to get out of that fighter flight,

to get out of that early childhood trauma? Or do you think your mom's bravery, her ability to like have you, hold you, take care of you, no matter how hard the circumstances got? Like, did she become your sort of marker for a version of normal or like healthy safety or did you two have to re-jigger that in a way together as you got out of that situation well that's interesting because yes and no you know what my mom was able to model for me was you know especially after she and my father split our life was chaotic but

there was no tension, there was no friction. And so it was nice to be able to experience that type of peace. But then what I also, what the other side to that point is that as an adult at learning how to be in dynamics with, again, whether it's work relationships, whether it's romantic relationships, I came from a lot of abandonment issues. right like I really feel like you know as adults we enter different chapters of our life based on the last chapter we were in and for me it took me a long time to be able to and it's something I'm still working on to be able to recognize or pinpoint when I'm acting from that little girl place who just wants to be chosen by her father or when I'm being a confident woman who's using her voice in a very mature responsible high, emotionally intelligent way. Yeah. Something you write about in the book. And it's funny because I want to ask you questions for the listeners who haven't read it

and then also not spoil it for the people who haven't read it. So I'm like, is this what film reviewers feel like? Right, right. But you talk about, you know, you have this chapter on courage. Yeah. And on choosing to leave a relationship, a life that looked perfect from the outside. Yeah. We need to have a bottle of wine about this.

Let's do it, girl, I'm in town. But the really interesting thing that you're just talking about with your childhood makes me think about that moment in adulthood. Like when you grow up in abandonment, when you grow up wanting to fix a wound, wanting to have the great version of the relationship that your parents didn't, do you feel like in addition to becoming what I think so many of us do, women is people pleasing people pleasers i love the way you you talk about it in the book again do you think it also is the kind of thing where you look back and you go oh i see i see why i

overstayed in that relationship and in this relationship because i i wanted to make it work because failing meant it was like the bad thing i grew up around yeah i think i think it's it's that what you just said and because i think you know it's you know so and this isn't this doesn't even i'm very woo-woo right um you know i'm one step away from walking around barefoot everywhere and like but this is not even woo-woo as much as it is science what happens with our brain is we have a relationship or we have a behavior or a pattern and our brain the neurons in our brain are used to firing in a certain direction so when you're a child of abandonment you're constantly wanting to be picked you're constantly wanting to prove your

worth. So at least for me speaking, if my dad stayed, like I, my, my dad was very in and out. Sometimes he was there. Sometimes he wasn't there. And as a child, you always associate, you're like, oh, I'm the reason he left. So if I can be good enough, the next time he comes around, then he'll stay. So I remember, like, I used to be like a cat, like hurrying in between his legs as a little girl, hoping that he wouldn't leave. So what that started forming in my brain was this behavior or this pattern that in order for a man to want me,

I have to prove my worth. I have to prove my value and I need him to pick me. So that absolutely played out in my relationship dynamics when there were situations that I probably should have exited way before I did because I had this built-in pattern that my brain was like,

no, no, you need to fulfill this pattern from childhood, remember? Like, you need to be chosen. He needs to pick you. You need to prove your worth. So, but, you know, Sophia, I also, so yes to all of that, but then I take it one step further, which is like, I also believe that we attract situations to us in order to serve our highest growth and to help our healing. And every situation that I was in, every, I was, I don't think I would have been able to exit a minute sooner than I had because I needed

to stay in order to serve my highest growth. And I like, you know, one of my favorite quotes ever, I'm a walking bumper sticker. As you know, the book is like full of quotes. Like, I love, I love quotes, right? I like to speak in quotes. But, it's like, God never puts the stars in the wrong place. So trust the timing of your life. In every situation that I was in where I added more stress to myself, it's like, oh, do I speak up tonight after dinner or should I wait until tomorrow morning? You know, or like whatever, it's like, it didn't matter because when you let it go,

when you let everything go and you're like, you know what? Like this is another philosophy I talk about in the book. You follow your happy. So, you know, I'm coming. So, I love it, but they're all kind of like interconnected somehow. But it's like, I, you know, as people, we are used to, you know, our egos want to figure things out. We want to know what are we doing tonight? What does tomorrow look like?

Like, the mystery feels very uncomfortable for us because when we know things, we feel safe. We spend so much time trying to figure things out. We spend so much time trying to solve the equation in our head. how do I get this person to react like this? And what happens if I do this? And should I speak up now or should I speak up later? And we just put a lot of energy into the, I don't know in figuring it out phase. When my point is it's like it's not worth it. Like what instead I feel like we should do is just follow our happy. So the reason you may not know like what to do in this particular moment at 512 p.m. on a Wednesday is because you're not supposed to know right now. The pieces

haven't fallen together yet. So trust the timing of your life. Yeah. And just focus on what you do know. Focus on whatever it is that brings you joy. If you'd rather have that extra chocolate chip cookie, if you want to go for a walk, if you want to cancel on your friends in favor of a quieter night, like put down the emails, put down the phone, like do something else that spark some joy. And little by little the things you don't know, the things that you were chasing the answers to, those answers will just kind of fall into your lap. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. Celebrate your pride with the station that's as bold, vibrant, and diverse as you are.

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Let's go. With IHart Pride Canada. It's one of the tactics that I try to use to undo the shame stuff. Yes. Because as women were cultured with so much shame, you know, not to say that other women don't have it hard or harder, but I do think there's a specific ingredient that having a version of fame adds to that where how dare you be unhappy, how dare you ask for more, how dare you be unsatisfied because you're so much luckier than all these other people. And for me, one of the greatest antidotes to that kind of shame of, wow,

I wish I'd figured that out sooner, wish I'd learned that lesson faster, you know, essentially telling myself I'm stupid and slow, is to say, there was no way for you to learn that until you learned it. Exactly. There was no way for you to know in your bones until you tried every avenue and then you knew the answer. That's right. You can't like guess and then feel confident in your guess. You have to live and then adjust as you feel.

Yes. And one of the things I found really profound, and I wonder about this for you as well, is that when I made this decision as an adult, you know, technically midlife, 41, to, well, 40, but, you know, approaching my 41st birthday, to leave a marriage that I was unhappy in, even though it looked perfect.

Sure. Even though I'd done all the right things, there were so many people that felt permission to share their own dissatisfaction, their own walking on eggshells in their home, their own desire for something else, And then there was a group of women that were like, oh, if you think happy is the measure for your life or your marriage, like, you got another thing coming, honey. And I was like, you don't think you're supposed to be happy in the house you live in? Yeah. And like that. My response to people like that is I'm like, because instantly what I hear is how unhappy they are. And, and, you know, misery loves company, right? And it's, it's.

just I you know when when my marriage ended I definitely lost friends and that's totally fine but it's like what I say when people I don't even waste energy and engaging in that type of frequency and my whole thing is I'm like I pray for you I pray for you I pray for your mental health and your sanity because wow like life is so much more fun when you realize that joy and happiness and going after the life of your dreams is is fulfilling you know it's like we're here for such a blip of an eye like tomorrow is not guaranteed none of this is guaranteed you know and if people think that they are here simply to service other people like that that's not why we were put here you know so um So, yeah, like, those haters, they don't even exist to me.

Like, I don't, you know, they don't, I pray for you. Totally. Well, and that's, that's just it. Like, it sends me, I mean, to your point, like, I'm also very woo-woo meets science, because it's the only way I can make sense of, like, big feelings. I'm like, what's the data say? And then how do I put them together? Sure.

Life is fun from that place. Yeah. And it's like, it's why I think. dreaming and setting your goals and then, you know, thinking about quantum mechanics is fun. Yeah. And for me, I really had to get to a point where I was like, I don't know what this life is or what it's going to be, but I actually think that the bare minimum to ask for, not the highest. I actually think the lowest part of the bar is I'd like to be happy in the four walls of my own home. Yes. Yes. Because like everything else out in the world is hard enough, man. And you know what? Sophia? The

minute what I have found is that when you have the courage to do what's in your highest good and you operate from that place, it trickles down to everybody else. Yeah, I love that. It's not, it is actually one of the most selfless things you can do is to be selfish in that sense. Of course. Yeah. And something I just am always, again, kind of gobsmacked by with you is your ability, like we're sitting here having a very deep conversation about the trials and tribulations of life and growth and manifestation and science and all the things. And you also have a absolutely filthy sense of humor. You are wickedly funny.

Like there's a part of your book. You are. There's even a part in your book where you talk about like, here I am. I'm going to ask for a divorce after, you know, 18 years in a relationship. I'm going to go out there and start over and I'm 40. my tits aren't perky anymore. Yeah, yeah, that's great. And I just was like, get out of town.

Like, I know exactly what you mean. And I don't know. Sometimes I find that the smartest people I know that are also the funniest people I know have like really been through some shit and figured out how to get through it. So like where does your levity come from? Have you always had it or is that also a learned skill like bravery? Well, I think, I don't know. My levity, that's a great way of putting it, because I actually don't consider myself a funny

person. Like, I know people who can, I, I don't consider myself funny. I consider myself real. And I think the humor comes from that place and just my ability to be super authentic. Like, yeah, it's that, you know. But I'm not somebody who can, like, regale a crowd with my amazing ability to tell a story. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not that person.

You know, I can cry in front of people. I'll do that all day long. But in order to, like, tell a joke, like, I can't think remember anything, like, at all. That is so funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I just know how to be really real. But, yes, I think that is something that I just came into this world with is I haven't, I didn't have fear. Or maybe, or I have less fear than most.

There are times when I do in terms of just. being super, super real. And maybe that came from my very humble beginnings, you know, growing up in Texas in a middle to low class area with a single working mom. I don't know. I don't know where that came from, but I've always been like that. And also it was important to me that like when writing this book, I don't like being lectured to.

And I think we learn better, or at least I know I learned better with humor. and nobody reads anymore. So I was like, if I want to get my information across to a group of people that I'm asking to sit down with an actual book, like, I want it to hook them from the first line. So humor was an important part in terms of like putting the book together and getting the message across for sure. And I think about like you were just saying, you know, you grew up in Texas, single mom and I'm like, hold the phone. There's a big asterisk here. that maybe also leads to your sense of humor because you grew up as an Iranian Spanish kid in Texas. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, there are so many places where that might have been easier. Like, I don't know, in New York. Like, how was your community there? Were you, were you, like my other, like my other buddy. Ah, okay. But here was the trick is it's like I didn't have a word, a name like Maria, you know, like I didn't. didn't have, you know, like my real name is Ahu, Ahu Jahansu Shahi. So I got, I got ridiculed in school and I had a unibrow and I was made fun of every single day and nobody I liked ever liked me back. And, you know, and I was a nerd and, you know, who literally had tape on my glasses. And like, I um it was it was not the easiest place to grow up in that sense but um so i didn't have a community in in a way that most kids with the white picket fence like you know and a mom and a dad like did

have a community i didn't have that but again i and i credit a lot of this to my mom like my mom is such a superwoman and to this day she still is she's 75 and she climbs up on the roof and she's like, we don't need a repair man. I can fix the air conditioning myself. Like Home Depot was her name. I'm like, in the next life, mom, you got to come back as a man because I don't know. Like she runs circles around me in terms of her energy and her ability to like get done. And so my, our mother was just, she never made us feel like we were missing something. Like whatever the other kids had, we also had. And she also talked. from a really young age.

And I think, you know, she came from a war-torn country to be the daughter of a foreigner. It's an interesting experience. And one, I have felt that sometimes I don't resonate as deeply with adults who have not come from hardship because of this. Like, from the time that we were young, like, she was like, you've got to have a 401k together. Like, let's go. It doesn't matter.

if you're, you know, nine. Like, you need to think about your future. You need to think about whatever and be grateful for what you have. Because she came from a country where we know what's happening there now, you know, without to take it into that direction so much. But it's like it was an education was a privilege for women where she came from. You know, and so, and she had to work for everything that she had. And it wasn't about patting yourself on the back.

But it's like there is no difference. between you and the person next to you. So if you want something, work your ass off and go get it. Yeah. And so that type of ethic and discipline was instilled in me from a young age. And yeah, and like I said, like she was like, there's no difference between you and that person. Like if you want it, go get it. Go get it.

Yeah. It's on you. Yeah. And she also told me from a very young age too. Like, you know, we didn't have money. And everyone knew I wanted to get out of Texas. I was always hungry for a life that was bigger than the one that I was leading. And so she was like, if you want that, then you need to get yourself there. Like, you need to do this.

She was like, I'll support you as much as I can, but it's going to be on you. So I really do credit my mom for that kind of hustle, you know, but the flip to that is as an adult. And, you know, I'm in this interesting phase in my life. I'm single for the first time in 23 years. I've been single now for a year. where I'm so used to the hustle and I'm so used to the chase, that now I'm learning how to cut that off. And I'm learning to be more like in the receptive mode.

And, you know, when I am, like my chase is appropriate when it comes from a very inspired place of action. But if it's all about just wanting a guy to like me, that's the wrong inspired action. So I'm really, so I'm continually learning lessons about my. personality and sides, like where they service me and where they come from a more ego place. And, you know, I need to, I need to quiet that bitch down and just receive. Totally. Be like, oh, you're not the part of myself that gets to operate the vehicle. Thank you. Like, get in the back seat. Yeah, I'm very much, very much on that journey. Yes. And now a word from our sponsors.

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Feel it all year long. Let's go. With IHart Pride Canada. When you talk about like the hustle and the work, like one of my favorite things in your story is it's the swift switch from studying opera in college and then right after you're cheering for the Dallas Cowboys. Like yeah what? Yeah. It's like Evita to Friday Night Lights. Like how what what is that timeline for you?

Like, can you take us back? Why opera in the first place? Then how did the cheering? Like, it's so crazy. It feels like it's out of a movie. And I just like, I need the synopsis. Well, I was a show choir kid. And, you know, I was always on stage from the time that I was young.

Even if it wasn't acting, I was like Rachel Berry in Glee, but less sexy. And I just love that word. And anyway, so. Yeah. It's my favorite. I think we deserve to own it. The like hard syllables, like in the beginning and the end, it's just brilliant. Anyway, so I, yeah, so I was at Southern Methodist University, and I was, like I said,

I was always in show choir, so opera was something that I fell into very naturally. And I was in a play. I was in a musical theater production at SMU, and I'd always wanted to be an actress, but I didn't know how to do it. But everybody in the play knew that I wanted to be an actress. So they were like, and that I had dreams of going to L.A., but I was like, I don't know how to get there, right? Like, I didn't have money.

So they were like, well, why don't you try out for the Dallas Cabaret cheerleaders? Because back in 1995, they were on SNL. So, and I was always an athlete in school. I was never a cheerleader. And so I was like, okay. And so I just drove to Texas State. that day, not knowing, like, again, like, when they, you know, I was so naive, like, there was no part of me that was like, oh, let me look it up online. Like, I didn't even know

what online was. Like, AOL was a dial-up. And so I was like, let me, I just drove to Texas Stadium one afternoon and auditions were literally like three weeks from that date. They had posted it. And so I was like, oh, great, I'll just sign up. So I signed up. And, um, I made the team. And a director named Robert Altman, and it breaks my heart the amount of times I have to spell out who he is. But I know you know who he is. He's essentially the godfather of film.

Like for the listeners who don't know who he is, do yourselves a favor. Go look up Robert Altman and just like treat yourself to an afternoon of his films. He was, he came to Texas to film a movie called Dr. T and the Women with Richard Gere, Kate Hudson, and Lyft Tyler. And in the movie, the girls were cheerleaders. So he used our rehearsal facilities for about two weeks that he was there. And all the cheerleaders, we were just extras in the background.

Yeah. I didn't know who he was at all. Like I had no, there was nothing in me that was like, oh, Hollywood director, maybe he can help me. Like there was like, it did not exist in my head. For whatever reason, the stars aligned. And he took a great big liking to me. and every day I sat with him. I had my own chair.

Sophia, get this. I had my own chair in Video Village, 19-year-old me next to Robert Altman. Wow. And like literally a PA would come and be like, Sarah, your chair's here today. And I'm like, oh my God, thank you so much. Like I was like, cool.

Oh, am I supposed to sit there? They're like, yeah, that's your chair. And I'm like, what? So I would sit next to him and we would speak. about everything other than acting. And it was his, it was his like third to last day that he was there when he finally was like, what do you want to do? And I said, well, I want to be an actress.

I just don't know how to do it. And he was like, I think you have what it takes. He gave me his cell number and his office number. And he said, I think you have something. If you ever move out to L.A., I want to help you. I went home that night, and I googled him because, again, I was like, who is this person? Like, can he really help me?

So I went home, I googled him of all the incredible Oscar-nominated movies he did. The only one that I really recognized was the movie that almost tanked his career. And Robin Williams' career was a movie called Popeye. So I told my mom, I was like, mom, the guy who directed Popeye is telling me I got a shot. So I packed up my truck. I quit cheerleading. I quit SMU. I quit everything that I knew.

And I moved out West in 2000. And I never looked back. There was no part of me. Like when they say too, like, you know, ignorance is bliss. Sophia, the amount of times people were like, well, what's your backup? What's your plan B? I'm like, what is a plan B? And they're like, well, a backup plan.

Like, if you don't make it? And I'm like, what do you mean if I don't make it? Well, of course I'm going to make it. Yeah, this is what I'm doing. It was manifestation. at a level that I didn't even understand. And now that I've gotten older and life got a little heavier at times,

I often remind myself of how I was that 19 to 25 year old self that was just like just operating out of her bliss. Like moment to moment, I was just so in my bliss. Like there was no, like I remember going to an audition for the first time. I didn't even know what an audition was. I wasn't memorized.

It was a producer session. There was all the scoot in the back of the. room for the producers. I thought it was for the actors. So I go in and I start making myself a plate. And people are like, how long have you been acting? And I go, I don't know, since Tuesday. Yeah. And they're like, how did you get your start? I'm like, well, do you know Robert Altman? And their jaws would drop. They're like, you know Robert Altman. I'm like, yeah, you told me I should come try it out. So I'm here. And it's interesting because when I came out to L.A., he was still in Texas filming and we were playing phone tag with one another. So as I was sharing the story of how I came

to LA while I was in LA, people were also giving me an education on who Robert Altman was. And they were like, you should go back and watch his films. Anyway, long story short, by the time he called me back last, I was too intimidated to talk to him. So I didn't call him back and then he passed a couple months after. So he was literally like, the acting angel, like my catalyst for coming out was him. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Like just the nudge you needed on your, on your energetic path. That's right. He was, yeah, he was, he was just, he gave me that little push and then that was it. Our chapter was close. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Yeah. Really cool. That's incredible. I don't know why my brain was just like, oh, my God, the closest I have to that story is when I never called Rihanna. Back in the day, for whatever reason, there was like a New York Fashion Week and then a series of events

that I kept seeing Rihanna at. And we got seated next to each other at a dinner and we vibed. And she's like, she's Rihanna. She's the coolest person alive on Papers. And after like our third hang, she was like, take my number. We got to hang out for real.

And then I like took her, I put her number in my Blackberry. Like that's how long. my God. And then I never called her because I was like, what do I say to Rihanna? Like I, I don't. Had umbrella come out? Yes. Oh my God. I was like so fully, I just was like, this is such a weird. Like, what is a person text? And my friends were just like, when I told them the story years later, one of my best friends was like, I will never forgive you for this. Like, she's our favorite. I was like, I know, but what am I going to do? Invite her over.

over to a party and she was like, yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I don't, I don't actually think I can interact with a person who's famous like that. Right, right. I lose my capacity to behave like a human. And then I'm like, well, what do you text? And people are like, what do you text anyone?

I'm like, I don't, I don't actually know. Right, right. It's like, the only way I, the only thing I know to liken it to is like the thing where you're really in the vibe on set and then suddenly something happens and you get self-conscious of acting. Right, right. I know that like, oh, I'm in my nervousness about acting body is suddenly I don't know what to do with my hands. Like, I'm just like, what are arms? Where do they go? Like, where do I? Where do I put my hands?

Yeah. Like, what do you mean? Where do I put my hands? They're just part of my body. But it's like, it's like energetically that. Right. And you had a version of it with Robert Altman being like, oh my God, he's so amazing. I cannot. Like, what are you going to say to him? Now that you know, who he is. Yeah, exactly. And it was just interesting because a person that I, but that also goes to show you your mind, right? And how we are not our minds because our minds can sell us some pretty warped stories. Yes. But yeah, this was a person that I found so much in common with, with spoke so freely with. And the minute other people started telling me about his accomplishments, I clamped up. Totally. You know, that's why now, too. It's like they pressurized it. Yeah. And it's like now I go into, I don't go into situations really investigating the person or researching what they've done or who they are. You know, when they say ignorance is bliss, like it really is true, you know?

You don't need to know everything. No, I don't, I don't need to feel more anxious than I already do. Thank you. Right, right, right, right. Right. Exactly. I'm really curious, though, like when you really got to working, you're acting career. was blossoming was also when you first became a mom.

Yeah, yeah. You know, we were certainly not in the moment as women that were in now. Granted, it's not like it's all that much better, but was that incredibly complicated to be really succeeding in your career and also to have to be a mom? Because it is just different for women and parenthood. Yeah, it is different. You know, the expectation is also different. Like, it's interesting.

Like, as much as I love feminism and I am a feminist, I feel like we're now expected to be the boss at home and the boss at work, which is a very unrealistic set of expectations that have been placed on us. But my career really started blossoming whenever I had my first born. And, you know, I love babies. I did home births with all of my kids, including the twins and one was breach. And I just think babies bring such good luck. You know, if I had somebody today, I'd get pregnant tomorrow. You know what I mean? Like, I, babies are just incredible.

But it was tough. But, you know, I'm not somebody who sits here and says, oh, I did it all alone. No, I had a nanny. It was important for me to also breastfeed. So we would build it into the pumping schedule. We would build my pumping and breastfeeding schedule into the schedule for the day. And, yeah, you just make it work. You just make it work.

Yeah. Yeah. And now you're here with the book and you're talking about this messy middle period of life. And, you know, you fast forward. You have three kids. You realize you love being their mom and you also don't love being married to their dad. You want a shift in your life. I think, you know, when relationships end, it's never something that happens overnight, right?

It's like a downward slope. And it's never one person. it's two people and for whatever reason and there's no judgment here and this is neither good nor bad but the goose just doesn't lay the golden egg anymore yeah it's just that simple right you know it's like i experienced a breakup last year that you know became somewhat public and it's like there was no table flipping there was no no one person did the other dirty it was nothing like that it's just the the the dance has lost its step right and to be able to say

I do love you I do care about you and I love you enough to let you go yeah because this is not serving either of us it's actually one of the most courageous things bravest things that someone can do I agree and it's not a failure I never thought my divorce was a failure I was like We were together for 18 years. Like we grew up together. We shaped each other.

Like, what a privilege. What a privilege to be in connection with somebody from the time that you're in your early 20s until you're in your 40s. Like, that's cool. You know, and we have three incredible children. We're great co-parents. And we are committed to this life with each other for our children. And it's a really beautiful feeling, knowing.

that we've reached this space with one another. You know, like that prior dynamic did not work, but we are in a new dynamic with one another. And yes, it took time to get there and took, you know, emotional involvement on both people's parts. But we're in this really lovely space. And the kids are the most important thing,

and they're really benefiting from their parents being able to co-parent healthily. Yeah. And, you know, that's all that matters for he and I. Yeah. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. Heart Radio is throwing it back. 20s, the decade. To the days of huge hits and unforgettable albums.

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the decade on the free Iheart radio app. Preset the station so it's always one tab away. A friend of mine said something really interesting to me, you know, talking about progress and obviously the, you know, the backlash we see around the world to it, particularly for women. And she said, you know, I think one of the things I've come to realize is that one of the greatest markers of progress for our generation.

And it might not be something people see till later. Because I think we're the first generation of women not to say I'll stay for the kids, but to say, I'm leaving for my kids. I'm leaving to model something better for my children than what was modeled for me. I don't want to teach them to seek this out. And whether this is something toxic, whether it's abusive, whether it's just not happy. Yeah. You know, to reframe, as you said, whether it's divorce or an ending or anything as a success. Yeah. To say, I walked alongside this person for years and we learned things. And then we came to the day after a long time of shifting apart. We came to the day where we were meant to go on our own journeys.

Yeah. Like, what a gorgeous thing, as you said, to experience portions of your life alongside someone and then to be generous enough with yourself and for them to say, I deserve what's next for me and you deserve what's next for you. Instead of let's stay because once we said we would and let's be miserable forever. You know, I've always felt that forever, it's wrong to say, you know, till death do us part. And look, people who take those vows and feel great about them, that's incredible. And look, I did too, right? So it's funny. Like, I, I, I, I have, we've all been there.

We've all been there. So it's like, I understand. And I know that at the time when you're saying those things, you really mean it. Nobody gets married planning their divorce. No. So it's like, and, you know, and I was like, I want to, when we die, I want to be buried on top of you and come back as ghosts and hunt people. You know what I mean? So my, my love carries into the afterlife.

So, so, um, it's a very deep love. But, um, you know, at the same time. it's, you know, like you said, it's, it's, it's, it is an act of bravery. It is just an act of bravery. And it is one of the most selfless things, you know, you can do is to be able to say, we're going to let each other go because this isn't serving either of us anymore. And when you do have kids, you have to think about, you have to think about what you're modeling for them by staying. Yes. You know, it's like, I have a daughter and two sons. And so for me, it was like, would I be happy? happy if my daughter were in a relationship like this. If my daughter felt like the way I feel, would I want this for her? And the hamster was absolutely not with my boys as I was like, am I okay modeling this for them?

Do I want them to think that this is how a woman should act when she's not happy? A woman, and it was like, no. And it doesn't mean there's no tears. It doesn't mean that it's not hard. You know, one of the hardest, you know, I really got my PhD in pain management when I got my divorce, right? So it was like, what do you do with the ring? What do you do with the pictures on the wall? Like, what do you do with all that stuff?

Where does the love go? You know, you carry all this love for somebody for so long. Like, it doesn't just disappear. And also, especially when you have children with them, you're still connected to them. So really learning what to do with all those energies that were. once flowing in one direction so heavily, where does it now go? I spent a lot of time in that space, right? And, you know, and talk about it in the book. And also just healing and heartbreak. Like, how do you get through it? You know, like everyone, there's no one way to grieve. And I feel like

people don't talk enough about grieving because pain is something that we've been conditioned to sort of, like, not feel, right? Like from the time that we're young, if we fall, our, moms, you know, they put a band-aid on it, tell us not to cry. We get a double-scooped ice cream cone and we're off on our way, right? It's like, oh, you're okay, you're fine. Don't cry. You're good. It's all good. But if anything, pain is inevitable, right? So it's like you can't go through life without experiencing pain, but we need to learn to open ourselves up to pain. And it was the moment when I stopped numbing myself, it was the moment that I stopped escaping or trying to run or replace my pain or, you know, that, that's, and when I finally was like,

okay, where are you? What are you trying to teach me? When I finally looked at my pain, that's when I was able to love myself enough to be able to get out of something that wasn't serving me anymore. That's really beautiful. You talk about this in the book, but I, I would love to touch on it a little bit because you share about how, you know, of all the things that you've worked on that are wonderful, also side note, I'm the biggest fan of Paradise. I can't talk about it. Oh, thank you. But sex life was so breathtaking. It felt like revolutionary in a lot of ways. It did. Yeah. And to read about how it came to you in a moment where you were really not just on screen as this character, but in your own life, processing what you're talking about, processing female agency,

where you got to explore desire and taboo and happiness and the lack thereof through a character. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Holy shit. Yeah. I learned so much more about it through the book than I knew. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, please, if you could just speak to it, I think it's so incredible. And then in the book you're offering some advice about sex, which I feel like you had to be emboldened to do by the show. 100%. Yeah, it was also like, you know, Sophia, I feel like we live in this age where Viagra,

like I talk about it's in the book, Viagra, which is something that makes a limp dick hard just rolls off of everyone's tongue, like it's everyday vernacular and we just accept it. But if a woman is talking about her period or progesterone or any kind of hormonal change, we have to do it behind closed doors. Like, I'll never forget,

there was this one day on set where I was on my period, and I asked a PA if I could have some tampons. And she was like, oh, and she, you know, got on the walk, and she was like, you know, turned to Channel 105. And I was like, what's going on?

And then they were like, yes, Sarah, if you want to step into your trailer, we'll bring you what you need. And I was like, what? And I go into my trailer, and then, you know, this, you know, knock on the door and the door kind of like ominously swings open and this little like package is like just through the crack and it was in a manila envelope and I'm like are you kidding me

everybody came out of a vagina here like it's not like my period the fact that i'm bleeding shouldn't be this like thing that you know like i should feel ashamed for talking about like what so it was it was also important for me to be part of the conversation to help like switch that dynamic a little bit. But when I was on sex life, yes, like, you know, not only was it like a battle cry for so many women

that were unhappy and felt unseen, you know, the show came at a time in my life where the character of Billy had the courage to question all of the things that I was silently questioning

and I was too scared to question. So it really was fate. You know, I'm going to work. I felt like I was it was therapy for me. I felt like I was reading out of the pages of my heart. It was just a very interesting time

in my life, you know? So, yes, and one in which I will be forever grateful to. But the sexual component of the show was also interesting. And, you know, I mean, you know how it is. When you do a project, you're never thinking it's going to be this, you don't go into it going, oh, my God,

this is going to be the biggest thing ever. Your responsibility is to the character. You want to tell the highest degree of truth for the story and you're there to tell a story whether or not it um uh resonates with people is beyond your control and so when the show came out and i kind of got put on this platform for unhappily married women or women who didn't know how to use their voice and i was just flooded with women who were like how did you have the courage you know to leave and also i've never had an orgasm before. How do I speak up? And I was just like, oh, my God, like, orgasms and sexuality,

like, these are God-given rights. Like, this isn't something that should be taboo. Like, oh, no, like, or sorted. Like, women's sexuality is not a sorted thing to talk about. Like, it's very natural. And something in which we were all born with this, again, this birthright to experience pleasure to the utmost degree. So it was a little scary for me to write about it because I was like, you know, again, I was afraid of judgment. I was, you know, I have three children.

You know, I was like, okay, how is it going to come across? But at the same time, for me, anytime I do feel afraid to do something, that's a signal for me to step into it. And so, like, I know I'm going to do something that is create some sort of change or conversation. Yeah.

I feel like that's what we're here to do. That's what makes life fun. I think it's incredible. I think it's incredible, especially, you know, when you just said that thing, which is so normal for all of us, well, I have three children. Oh, my parents will read this. Oh, yeah. It's like, sure, but again, even speaking to what I want this marriage for my children. Right. I also think there's something, you know, when you talk about all of the women out there who've never experienced an orgasm. who've been married for, you know, five to ten years. It's like, you got to start tickling that clip. Like, get on it.

But in my brain, I'm like, wait, so then all these women are experiencing their lives being used for a man's pleasure and not being allowed to participate. Like, that's vulgar to me. Or not choosing to participate because they inherently are holding themselves back because of their earlier programming that sex is dirty. or sex is not, you know, whatever. So it's like, yeah. Well, and they might not be choosing,

or by the way, they might not even be being acknowledged. Exactly, exactly. And I love that you wrote this book and yet you talk about these things with your three kids because don't we want all of our kids to say, hey, if I'm going to have an intimate or sexual experience, I'm going to be a full participant in it. I'm going to have agency.

I'm going to consent. I'm going to enjoy myself. Exactly. Exactly. That's what I want. That's what I want. Exactly. I want my children to grow up feeling confident in themselves to be in respectful relationships where desire and pleasure and sensuality is mutually exchanged. You know what I mean?

It's like those are the good things in life. Yes. If they're going to have healthy, intimate relationships in their adulthood, conversations about sexuality and intimacy cannot be tampons in a manila. It just cannot be that. No. Yeah, I did not want that. So, yeah, it's interesting.

And also it's like, you know, being single now, I've been learning about myself in a different way. And in terms of like how I carry myself through the world. And I think before, not saying that this was as a result of any of my partners putting this on me, but I think I was I didn't I I'm an aries rising okay and if you know anything about astrology like aries is a fire sign and so um I like to have a little wink and mischief in my eyes wherever I go like it doesn't mean that I want to somebody it doesn't mean that I'm necessarily like putting the vibes out there for them I could flirt with I could flirt with the wall the same way that I could flirt with the female or male barista at Starbucks.

You know what I mean? So it's like there is no, it's me. It's actually for you. It's my sacred fire. It's in, it's just me. And in my relationships for the last 23 years, I've kind of put, I've suppressed that a bit because I don't want to come across as disrespectful and I don't want to, you know, send the wrong signals and I don't want to whatever.

And so it's like, I have held myself back a little bit. and or a lot. And I have now realized like, oh no, this is kind of, this is who I am. And, you know, the next and how I take up space in the world. And, you know, the thing about sexuality and sensuality, it doesn't even have to be sex. Like sensuality and especially women, femininity, this is how I take up space. You know, this is how, like, I look at myself in the mornings and I like giving myself a little wink. You know, it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's, um, and it's what I feel really good doing. Um,

you know, and yeah, it's, it's, and that, and that landscape can change each day, like, what sensuality looks like, what femininity looks like. Like, that can change day to day. There are many different ways and types to be feminine. I wrote a substack article about this one time, because it's like, there's so much judgment about like what a woman looks like or should look like. Yeah. And whether someone is, you know, wearing scantily clad clothing, great, amazing. Like, good for them. Or if somebody wants to be head to toe, like, Tom, the tomboy look, great. Good for them. Like, it's just, it's all equal. There is no judgment on anything. So being able to be single in this time has allowed me to explore parts of myself that I have quieted for a long time. And I'm excited about

whatever my next relationship looks like because I feel like I'm actually going to be able to enter it as the fullest, you know, a version of myself, the soft and the fire, you know, and I wouldn't have never been able to do that had I not been single.

I love that. It's beautiful. And it feels very cool, again, when things come at the right moment, that you're having this exact experience when this book is being born out into the world. Yeah.

Like it doesn't feel coincidental to me. Well, what's crazy is like when I wrote the book, I was in a relationship. And the book has come out when I'm not in a relationship. So it's like I really am the person who is putting her money where her mouth is and like speaking from experience. And I am the reader. So yeah, it's interesting. I am having the best time talking with Sarah Shahi today.

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