Drama Queens - Scream-ish • EP405

Episode Date: December 5, 2022

As Hilarie, Joy and Sophia take a look back on the dark storyline that themed this episode, they can’t help but liken it to the movie Scream.  But in doing so they find some things that don’t add up, which causes Joy to do an off the cuff rewrite of a memorable scene. Meanwhile, Hilarie has kind words for Psycho Derek.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. From prologue projects and Pushkin Industries, this is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens.

We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Chearing for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. You could be smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Queens.

Well, this was a dozy, huh gals? Wow. This was the episode when One Tree Hill became Wisteria Lane, like Desperate Housewives. Maybe, I don't know,

like a 90s thriller. It wanted to be screamed. Fear. Yeah. Fear, scream. What was the one with Alicia Silverstone? Cruel something? No.

Yeah. What was that one with Carrie Elway's in Alicia Silverstone? Oh, yeah. Crush. Oh, Crush.

Yeah. Yeah, this was the psychoderic episode, guys. Ooh. All right, season four, episode five, I love you, but I've chosen darkness air date October 25th, 2006. Hillary, would you like to do the age? Yeah, well, look, it had a real Halloween vibe to it for October 25th. Lucas and Peyton discovered that Derek's interest in Peyton is more than brotherly, and Derek's behavior takes a dark turn.

That's an understatement. Haley reveals that she's pregnant to Nathan. And at the same time, he's offered a scholarship to Duke. And Rachel uses the internet to set Brooke up on a blind date with an older guy. I mean, three very different trajectories in this episode for the three ladies of one dream. Yeah. Like, what does our show want to be right now? I don't know.

The Haley's, like, it was, those two things really probably shouldn't have been in the same episode. The Haley and Nathan, like, emotional pregnancy journey, his, like, dream and all. It was like, that was one of those feel-good storylines that we love about our show. And then this random, psychotic, violent storyline, I feel like maybe they could have done a little better, you know, parceling those out into different episodes. Because even the music choices, it went for me, like, totally. To like. Sideways camera angles.

Yeah. To like really loving stuff when Nathan looks in the camera and is like, yo, baby, I love you so much. You know, there's tears. You and me, baby. Yeah. Too much. Too much. Wow.

It was very all over the place. It starts on our sex worker, played by a friend of ours, Carrie Moscow. She was my stand-in for a big run of the show. And she was an actor as well. And I like that she got some screen time. Yeah, me too. You know, I thought she did a really good job with what she had to do. Yep.

because it was sad that she couldn't say I've been assaulted you know she had to pretend like I'm just clumsy I really I felt for her character in that very you know

short scene she'd been brutalized I did too I did too it was nice to see her on camera I remember she was such a lovely person to be around

you know our standants I don't know if we've explained this on the show before but for those of you who don't know anything about how things, our films are made. When actors, after we rehearse, we go get our hair and makeup on and our wardrobe and everything. And then all the lighting guys are setting up lights and setting up the cameras and they need bodies to stand in our place so that they can light

us properly. So that's what Carrie was one of the lovely gals that we had who would do that for us. And she was a, she's very vivacious, like lovely sweet, smart. I loved seeing her. So it was really that was one of the fun parts about getting a I think for a lot of stand-ins you get on a show and then the crew and everybody gets really comfortable with you and then when a part like this comes up you're the first person they think of because you're there every day you're already around everyone so and I think we did that quite a bit on our show with folks that we were used to in your stand-in was in this episode too Ashley she was yeah yeah I was just going to say that's part of what's so cool especially when you do a show for a long time is

is you really get to form a bond with these folks. And, you know, by now we're in season four. So when we started working, you know, we were all so young. It was pretty common that you'd have someone who was your stand in who'd been doing it a while, who maybe was your age, who maybe was a little older than you. And then a lot of those people go and they get the jobs they've been training for. And you get this sort of new crop of people. And I think, you know, we had like what was it probably like three regular folks for each of us over the course of nine years like those are really close relationships and you know even I did four years of a show in Chicago and I had the same stand in for almost the entire time and the same stunt double for the entire show that's cool

and it's like these people become your families and like Kelly who doubled me um who helped do all the stunt choreography in Chicago had actually doubled me on a movie that I filmed while we were doing One Tree Hill and has gone on to continue working with me and it's like, it's such a, it is interesting because people don't see those people

on camera a lot, but they are like truly some of our closest friends in our working world. And it was always so neat when, to your point, a part like this would come up and then they'd be given the opportunity to audition.

and it was just always really special when they would win a part like that because they were on set day in, day out, studying and learning the craft and, you know, trying to pursue those goals while helping us pursue ours. It's like, it's a very, very special thing. Yeah. Also, which I always think is funny, because they try to find stand-ins that have features that are similar to yours. like Ashley has it has a upturned I don't know if that's the right phrase but like a very defined nose and so do you and you're like a similar bone structure like she her cheekbones there's this like even though you guys don't look alike if you pass each other on the street and the same thing Bridget my my stand in big brown eyes kind of a round face and like you know put puffy cheeks Hillary you um Carrie had um and they have to find somebody who's your

height too but the hair color her eyes were blue and yours are green but it's It's the same kind of a thing. You have a big light eyes. Big light eyes. Yeah, similar kind of skin tone and bone structure. It's funny. Shoulders. Shoulders are a big thing.

That's right. That's right. So it's funny to see somebody come in and you're like, oh, you're the other me. This is so weird. Yeah, especially to have Carrie dressed up as you. Oh, yeah. It really did create this chilling effect because you could see as an audience member what Derek saw in her. And it's because that's what our whole crew saw in her.

Yeah. I just found, I'm doing a documentary for something else, and I had to go through and look at all of our pictures from this era. And I just found, like literally, right before we started watching this episode, all the pictures from this episode. Because hair and makeup took a bunch of behind-the-scenes photos, and there are pictures of me with my stunt double in our cheerleading uniforms. And so we'll post those.

Well, I'm going to post those. Oh, my God. I'm going to go get those out. You know what I'll say is that we talked at length in our last podcast about how complicated this episode was because they were really trying to appeal to a male audience that liked female brutality. And so I don't want to continue to beat that dead horse. What I will say is our hair and makeup team knew how uncomfortable I was. and they made that day of shooting in the bedroom

with Derek and all the crazy shit so fun and they like they made it like such a joke like any time I was just like seated on the floor because Peyton's getting dragged and it's in between takes they would they would yell out like nobody puts baby in a corner you know they just were being so freaking goofy about it and that's man that's the power of chicks

chicks just know when you're uncomfortable and they're like we're going to come in and at least we're going to make it funny behind the scenes so yeah we had a good camaraderie yeah that's good well how was Matt in that I mean that had to have been hard for him too you know I think any

any guy who's not a psychopath doesn't you know feels uncomfortable being put in that position having to act out stuff like that with well all of our boys are having to do like like this new Nick guy has to be a total creeper right that's so creepy that whole thing is so creepy Derek has to be creepy and Nathan has to be like kind of complicated with the I'm not

going to feel guilty about this of it all um yeah doing hard stuff is where your acting shows up I suppose Matt Barr but did you guys have conversations was he like I'm good I'm you know is this okay what can I like how how did that go that dude was so concerned about my comfort level like the whole the whole time he was on the show you know was always like

is this too much is it what works for you how can I dial this back how do I you know I have to make your terror make sense so do you need me to turn it up to 11 like he just checked in

constantly and he was younger than us too you know I don't know what Matt had worked on before he came on one tree hill but it's not like he'd been doing a ton of movies where he was the old

you know seasoned pro he just knew to be thoughtful about it. And especially, like, you know, he throws me on the, or he head butts me onto the bed and then has to, like, climb on top of me. Like, oh, that got me.

I have kissed every boy on this show. And I will say that, like, Matt Barr, having to do as much physical interaction as we did, hands down the most thoughtful with, like, where do I put my hands? Where can I put my leg? You know, are you okay lining this up ourselves or do you want someone else to do it?

I can't say enough good stuff about that guy because he's great. And, and what I appreciate about Matt is that you see it especially in the scene where Peyton goes to his hotel room, which like, what? Why? Why?

Why does she go there? We all screamed. Because of the whys. She had to check the keyboard. Yeah. Sticky Y, man. Sticky Y. But showing.

the instability in that human's psyche, Matt did a really good job because you can tell that Derek is unraveling. I mean, and like, not in a, I want to sleep with you kind of way necessarily, but in a, I need to consume you. I need, like, your validation is the only thing keeping me breathing. Yes. Well, it's a, it's a kind of possessiveness that is so clearly off the rails and it's really it's really fascinating to watch someone who's good like Matt

is good as an actor handle it and it's relieving to know how kind he was in your one-on-ones behind the scenes that were so upsetting because it's really hard to film material like that

it does leave a residue on your body and how much of it you carry can really be mitigated by the tenor of the environment when the cameras aren't rolling. And you deserve to, if you have to portray scenes like this or do material like this, like what a gift to at least have someone try to take care of you through it,

that's a good scene partner. And I think, you know, to your point, we've talked about the things that make us really uncomfortable about some of these storylines and whether it's this kind of really extreme male obsessive violence and possessiveness or it's, you know, a teacher telling his date that he fantasizes about high school cheerleaders. Ew. It's like, it's so gross.

So good. This whole storyline. Oh, we don't like where this is going for you. I can't wait to read you guys the tweet I got about it just today because people know this episode is coming. But I will say that the way that the set is run between the takes can make all the difference when the material is not emotionally ideal. Well, even like Matt went so far out of his way to be bros with Chad and Ernest Waddell,

who plays Real Derek as well. Like, he wanted them to feel comfortable. And there's kind of this weird alpha male energy. Anytime there's action scenes where, like, you stay away from each other in between takes. And, like, you go do push-ups in a corner so you look ripped and shit like that. And Matt was just like, hey, does anybody want coffee? I'm going by craft service.

Can I get you guys anything? Aw. You know, and it was, yeah, the camaraderie with all of us. Because we all end up rolling around together on the floor in that bedroom, hitting each other with lamps and shit. It was just party time. that you kind of have to when you're when you're playing a role like that you got to make sure everybody knows you're actually a really nice guy well there you know there's a lot of actors out there who are

so method that they'll show up and be broody and just stay in that zone and it's like oh it's scary to be around you know i just i love it when people are able to just be nice who was it was it lorence olivier that was like it's called acting like he said i think i think i think to Dustin Hoffman on a movie and was just like, oh, kid, please. It's just acting, darling. Take yourself so seriously. Yeah, okay, well, let's get, let's like go in a little bit of order here

because Haley and Nathan had a huge storyline. That's a big episode. We kept this, you know, suspense going since last season where we don't know who's pregnant. I know. Okay, well, let's talk about it. apparently I discovered self-tanner highlights and eyelash strips because gorgeous but then also somehow I discovered like what are they board shorts? I literally don't even know what those

kind of shorts are called. They go to your knees. Oh, Bermuda shorts. Bermuda shorts. The era where I would be in a long-sleeve t-shirt, Bermuda shorts and platform flip-flops is really, uh, But, yeah, it's not to be desired. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for the kind of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence.

That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why. Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory.

Well, we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacist. Bad faith political warfare, and frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi.

What difference at this point does it? didn't make. Yes, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This was a costume designer that I didn't get along with. Well, he wasn't here for very long. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that. He was really combative. He'd put out three outfits for you, and you'd be like, oh, I really love this one. This one's actually my least favorite. it. So if we can make sure, sure, shit, you'd show up in your trailer in the morning, and it would be the one you hated. You were just like, oh, God. This guy. Whatever. I thought your Bermuda shorts were cute. And I like that Haley is like, look, if I'm going to be pregnant,

I'm hot pregnant. Like, none of this sweaty, like, I don't feel good shit. So cute. So, yeah, I mean, I remember when we filmed that scene, I thought it was really strange. I was having a hard time figuring out how to deliver that line because it was so unnatural to me for Nathan to say, I'm going to Duke and for Haley, who's been holding onto this secret the whole time to spit out, I'm pregnant. It just seemed really out of character. Like, if she's held onto it this long, she would let him really enjoy that and everything, and then maybe break it to him in like a couple of days.

I don't know. So that was weird, but we figured it out. It still felt clunky to me when I watched it back. But then why is Nathan so? I don't know. It seemed so strange. Did all his behavior check out for you guys? Because to me, it seemed so weird. Well, here's what I'll say is none of us had had babies. None of us had been pregnant when this was filmed. And so it's like, what do those hormones do to your brain, you know, in your first trimester? And now I know I was a nightmare. I mean, like, legit nutcase. And the idea that, hey, these, like, saying things out of character. Yeah, that tracks. Yeah, okay.

You know? All right. I'd buy that. Yeah. Her sensitivity to stuff makes sense. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I will also say, Nathan tracked for me because of the prior episodes.

Like, if he had just talked to you in that way, I think I would have been like, what the fuck, man. But because he has thought Brooke is pregnant and he's been like, I can't believe she wouldn't tell him. How is she kept this from him? He's gotten really vulnerable about how he feels about secrets and what feels like a betrayal of trust and confidence. And I do think, look, at the end of the day, priority number one is the pregnant person. Like, Haley needs time to process. She's having the feeling she's having.

But he's also having an experience. Yeah. Like, he can't be expected to be that rational. No. And I think because of the episodes and episodes we've done of the fake out, him being like, I have literally, I mean, you know, he doesn't say this, but the way I, what I feel like I saw in the performance was, I have been looking at you for weeks talking about Brooke being pregnant. And it's you? And you didn't say anything. And you didn't tell me. Like, I wouldn't tell me. Oh, God. So what I actually really liked about it was that was that there was such a miss and so much discomfort. Yeah. And for once, like, they push poor Paul into just being such a lunatic. 98% of the time as Dan, I actually thought the Dan Scott stuff really worked in this episode.

Yeah, I did too. It wasn't like super villain. It was much smaller. It was smarter. It was better. manipulation. I think that's Paul because he knew there was so much psycho in this episode.

He was like, they don't need Dan over the top either. He brought it down to the ground and very, very real. And it was so good. And the crazy thing is, you know, and for our friends at home, when we watched the episode, when Dan says, you know, Haley's already had her

dream, now it's your turn. The three of us were like, oh my God, do we agree with Dan Scott right now? Like, he's not wrong. And so he's not wrong. So it's this really interesting moment where I think what I like about it is that I can see why everybody's upset and I don't think anybody's actually wrong. Yeah. Those are some of the most interesting interactions, I think, whether it's in your own personal life, it's harder to appreciate the intrigue of the dynamic when it's your own personal feelings and relationship. But

watching someone else go through it, that's why I said when Nathan walked out the door, I was like, what an interesting, it's so interesting that all these people are feeling their own feelings, and that's their reality, and that's exactly what they feel. And none of them are really wrong, but they're all missing each other. I, as like a teen boy mom, I'm really interested in the walking away of it all. Because throughout my child's, you know, childhood and adolescence, I have told him, if you're in a situation where you feel your emotions are getting hot, right? take a beat and if you and if you're still hot go for it but if you're not still hot then you've taken a beat right and so i've gotten calls from gus's school where they're like hey gus is just like left the classroom or like he just like left oh yeah yeah they're like he's left he's walked away from a situation and we can't get him to talk to us and i'm like well because it doesn't need to talk to you uh but i've raised him to walk away and so like what i thought what nathan did was right because that's how I've raised my child.

Like, you know, before you get into it, take your beat, and if you still feel the same way, honor it. But if you don't, good thing you took that beat. Yeah, give yourself a moment to really assess and let your adrenaline come down, because then you might avoid saying something you regret, and it'll be better for everybody. Because we've seen Nathan say some, like, nasty stuff.

We've seen Nathan do some really nasty stuff. And so rather than do anything nasty, he was like, I'm going to go to Rachel's house and sit on her bed. Yes. I'm going to go to somewhere totally random. And reject her still. And still, yes. I heard something yesterday was having drinks with a girlfriend.

She said, you can't solve a problem on the same frequency that it was created. It's a quote from someone I can't remember who, if anybody out there finds it, I'd love to know who said that. but I think it's so true that you can't wherever the problem is created you have to come at it from a different angle and when you're when you're hot and you're meeting it on the same emotional level you there's no good that's going to come from that it's always going to be just two two problems back and forth batting at each other you know it's Einstein joy oh it's Einstein great it's Einstein I love that guy. We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.

Great. I like the frequency at it. I like it pretty better. I do, too. I like how it's evolved since the white-haired man. Here's a random, totally non-sequitur. My grandmother used to catch butterflies on the beach with Albert Einstein. She dated Einstein?

Your grandma dated Einstein. No, she was a little bit. girl and she would catch butterflies on the beach with him when she was a little girl and he was out there. He was like, isn't that so funny? Anyway. Wow. But can we tell people that your grandma dated Einstein? Because that is just like a, I think the age difference if somebody really looked into and end up being super creepy. It'll be like Nick in this episode. Yeah. It's like Pocahontas and John Smith. We're like teachers should not be hitting on their students. And then we're like, but a hundred years ago might have been cute. No, I think she was like six and he was like,

20 and it was like a little girl do you come catch butterflies with me on the beach yeah anyway sorry coming back to it but yes that's that's a lesson that has been very difficult for me to learn in life and i'm still work on it is when i feel that emotional reaction come up i feel so strongly about it that like if i don't do it if i don't say something something must be done i must do something and always always it backfires. And I just have to learn, have to keep reminding myself to do exactly what you're teaching your son, which is so great, Hillary. Just walk away, come back later.

My cycle is, say it calm, say it calm, say it calm, say it calm. And then when I hit that fucking, I've said it calm five times and I have to explode, you've earned that. And I think Nathan is doing that. He's like, I'm going to say it calm. I'm going to say it calm. I'm going to say it calm. And if everyone keeps pushing my buttons, I might explode because we've all seen me do that before.

But the tempered reactions are difficult for kids, you know? Yeah, totally. She's dealing with pregnancy hormones, but Nathan's dealing with teen boy hormones. And kids who have been raised with parents that clearly don't spend time teaching them anything. Yeah. They're just feral. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like the most maternal person in this episode. The most parental person in this episode is Karen when she welcomes Haley in and says, welcome to my life. I wish they've given you guys more of like a scene. Oh, I know. I think they did and they cut it. I think we had one and it got cut. This was at that point where at least two scenes wound up on the cutting room floor every episode

because they would overwrite and then we would lose things. and it was so sad. I feel like it would have been so nice to see you, but what I will say is it made sense. Like even just that sentence was so impactful. And this idea that an adult could look at you and say, I've been there, I'm here. Yeah.

Haley going to Dan, though, that really threw me off. It threw me off on the day, too. And when I got the script, I was like, this is so unreal stock. This doesn't happen. You and Paul are such good friends now. Were you guys that tight then? Like, was this kind of a behind the scenes showing up on camera thing? Or was this the start of you guys hanging out more? Because, yeah, we were tight. We were tight kind of right away. We became good friends. And I think once I got married in real life, that relationship cooled because, I don't know, it was just like I was young and it felt weird to be like super

close friends with someone. Like, I mean, I got along better with him than I did with my husband. I was like, probably I should be respectful and not like spend all my time with this. Honey, I'm at Paul's house. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, she's trying to be a good way. But anyway, yeah, so we did get on really well and it was always easy on set. So I think that was probably a little bit of just normal Paul and Joy communication just bleeding into that scene. But it just was, I just could not really believe that Haley would go to Dan first.

maybe Karen, maybe Deb, maybe... Her own mom? Like, call mom. Her own mom and dad. Lucas. He just seems like the last person that she would go to, A, to confide in,

B, to give information to, and then C, to receive advice from. All three of those things are just very... I don't believe it. I don't buy it. I mean, I guess the line of thinking is if Nathan was following Dan's trajectory,

the only other person on the planet that could know what Nathan's thinking is the other guy that, you know, had a dream. Yeah. I dreamed a dream. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe in that case then I wish I had played it differently. And who knows, maybe I was feeling stubborn on that day.

And I just was like, no, I really want to sit down and be sincere. And maybe I should have done it more like from the door and been like hesitant. And I wish I wasn't here. There's no reason for me to be here. But I have to do this. And you need to know. And, you know, could have kept it a little bit. more that. But then again, there's the hormones. It's a pregnancy hormone. So that kind of writes

everything. You can have free pass, free hall pass on pregnancy hormones for everything. You set Dan up for tenderness, because if we look at all of Dan's lines in that episode or in that scene, he's got that line where you're like, I'm pregnant. And he says, oh, it seems to be going around. And he says it in a really loving way, but he could have said it real assy if he wanted to. You know, like you set him up for tender choices. yeah well it's interesting to see dan like processing all this and the way that he approached Nathan on the basketball court afterward which yeah also again could have been done and delivered in a way that was very mustache twisty villain and instead it was very real solid advice i mean

loving advice yeah he was right he was i know what does haley want to study that she can only go to Stanford? That's what I was thinking. Like, what's the big deal? Yeah. She could very easily go to Duke. But I think, look, I think part of it is about what our dreams are. And it's what Dan says to Nathan. You've loved Haley for a year. You've loved basketball your whole life. We have these dreams, these things that we're obsessed with as young people. And then your plans change and you realize, oh, this is still great. But when you're so young and your plans haven't had much cause to change, I think the idea of, you know, the pennant you've had on your wall since you were little is probably really, really meaningful to you. Even though at this stage in life,

you know, now we're all the age that Dan Scott was and we look back and go, it doesn't matter where you go to college? How duh. Duh. But at 17, it's like, it's everything. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges,

we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for, kind of years, you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner

in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies.

It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare and, frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok, from Prologue,

and Pushkin Industries, this is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yes, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Have you ever dated someone that was like, I need you to give up this super huge opportunity? Like, you're going to pick me over this big opportunity. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Yep. And did those work out? No. No. The relationship and then the missed opportunity. Yeah. You know, it's like, oh, it's killer. I think, though, there's a distinction that feels important between what Nathan says, which is this is a decision we'll make as a family. We will choose our path based on what's good for the three of us. There's that, and then there is the thing that I see us. all smirking about, which is being young, and especially being young women who are succeeding and being in relationships with men whose masculinity is very threatened by female success, who then look at you, we've had someone or someone's look at each of us and say,

you need to be a little smaller so I can be big. And that is like, that's just like pour a napalm on the whole neighborhood. It's like, goodbye. light it up like we're done we're so done here that is when someone just wants you to be small so they can feel big it's very different than being in a healthy partnership where where as a team you say okay we have to figure out what's doable for us it's hard to tell though when you especially when you're young I mean yeah even at our age it can sometimes be hard to tell but you know we have the advantage of life experience.

Because when you're that young, it's like, oh, well, I don't want to, you know, you should be able to have space for you. And so, yeah, I don't want to take up all the space. Like, let's, you think that you're actually maybe doing something to know much. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and noble. Like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to make sacrifice. That's what a relationship is about. You have to make sacrifices for each other.

And you do. So it's like there's always this element of truth. Yes, in relationships, you need to make sacrifice. for each other, but it's within the context of making decisions together rather than someone saying, I can't handle your essence, like everything about you, your dreams, your fullness, I can't handle that. You have to be smaller. Yeah. What I think is really interesting is learning that it's a sliding scale. Like there is a window of healthy compromise and willing to listen, but there's a lot on either side of that scale. And I think when you're younger,

it can be easier to martyr yourself or shrink yourself or dim your own light and say, well, of course I can do this for you. And yes, I can prove to you that I love you so much because I'm willing to miss out on fill in the blank. And it is, to your point, joy, that life experience you get as you get older, where it's much easier to know the difference between someone who's insecure. Yes, and, and, you know, they say, for example, marriage or relationships, their work. And all of us are at the stage where we go, yeah, they're work, but they shouldn't be torture. And when you're younger, sometimes you think that the suffering, like, this must be the work

that everybody says it takes. And you're just, you're in the wrong scale. It's a hard note on the suffering and the torture for me. Goodbye. Yeah. The work is more like, who's picking up Thai food tonight? You know, like, which one of us is going to take that turn? Joy, you made a comment during the press conference. You're like, why isn't Haley there? Like, in hindsight, what do you think Haley should have done, given that, like, Nathan, this child clearly has PTSD, his mom's got off the rails, this child has not had a win in a long time. Like, as his partner, what would you have done? I absolutely would have shown up. Me now, like my age now, you just put the problem on the shelf and know you're coming back to it and you show up with bells on. Right. But, you know,

She's, again, like, 17, 18, I don't know, I guess she was feeling sorry for herself. They had a big fight, and that's something that happens a lot in relationships when you have a fight, and then you think, oh, he doesn't want me there. He actually basically told me, stay home, like, don't be a part of this. Even though those words weren't said, you interpret those feelings and, you know, people misunderstand each other all the time and then feel like, then again, they're just missing each other. Yeah. I do wish. I don't know. Do you think she should have stayed home? Did you, did you like that? When he came home, like, the Haley I think of would have had a cake that said like, the baby and I are proud of you, you know?

Yeah. I would have done something to be creative and make it like fun. And so to see her just so like, I don't know. Yeah. She was kind of mopey. Yeah. But in the same way that I can understand Nathan's reaction, I can also understand that for Haley because. because yes, she's been keeping this secret for, I don't know, six weeks or whatever, but that is six weeks of waiting for the reaction that you're hoping is coming. And then you don't get it. And yeah, it's your fault because you're the one who kept the secret, but it doesn't matter. It's like that's six weeks of a buildup and you're a little heartbroken.

And I think that's why I enjoyed these scenes with the two of you so much because I felt for you both so clearly. I understood exactly where each of you was coming from. And Haley had to go lick her wounds, regardless of the fact that they're kind of self-inflicted. It doesn't matter. Like, he really didn't give her the things she'd been hoping for. And he was justified in not being excited because he felt betrayed. And, oh, God, it's like such an uncomfortable standstill.

Yeah, totally. You know how I wish that scene would have gone? I'm rewriting this scene right now. Okay, yeah, yeah. These are my favorite things that we do. Yeah. Let's pretend it happened this way. So Nathan's get, where did he?

Do you got a phone call or he got an email? Yeah, it was like a phone call. You got a phone call. Okay, so Nathan's like on the phone. From Coach Kay. And then meanwhile, we cut to Haley. Yeah, Coach K. Then Haley's in the bathroom and she's like,

siking herself up to tell him. And she's like getting ready to tell him. And then he's on the phone. He's got this call. And then she's like, okay, I'm going to go do it. And maybe she's on her phone. She's like, I'm going to tell him now. Okay.

And then they both walk out in the hallway and they're like, I have something to tell you. And it's like, okay, let's both say it at the same time. They're both really excited. And they say it at the exact same time. And then they both just like, oh, that's so much better. Come on. That would have been so better.

From now on, that's how I remember that scene happening. Yeah. Yeah. I like, Haley being in the bathroom on the phone with Brooke being like, I'm going to do it today. And she's like, you better do it today, Haley. Today. Yes.

You tell everybody today. Like, I remember when Jeffrey and I found out that we were pregnant. it with Gus. Like, we were like, oh, oh, man, wow. There was a lot of wow. And then we walked like eight miles. Like we were in Manhattan and we just walked all the way from downtown all the way to uptown and didn't really talk.

But it was just every once in a while, we'd just like stop at a light and be like, wow. Wow. Like that's the reaction that I see these kids having because it's like, I don't. even have the language to talk about this. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah, sometimes you just got to let the silence take over, but instead, you know, but what I love about your idea, too, Joy, is that it would have tracked some of the humor of the last couple of episodes, because by the way, some of the great humor is for Haley and Brooke and their secret. Yes. And now I finally know where the gif of me going thank you comes from i was like oh my god it's this episode i love it that's what the cake should have

come in brook should have made a cake they should have she should have been at her apartment finishing it up like she's got the cake covered haley like pulls the lid off the thing and it's the cake that's like and brook is the cake just says it isn't me congratulations love brook but it's like if if your scene had happened where you'd been on the phone with me and he'd been on the phone with the coach and then we've gotten to school and i was like i get that it didn't go the way you wanted it to go, but I don't really care. People need to know. Okay? Okay. Good. Like, it, it would have tracked the hilarity that you and I had had in all of those scenes throughout these first four episodes. Yeah. I loved that jumping up on the

table. Table is so fun. Haley just taking it. She was like, yeah, all right, I'll just like. You burned this. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Fine. I've done it. I'm done. I've run out of road. Wow. All right. Well, let's talk about, let's talk about Brooke then because she- Yeah, baby. Rachel's added again, manipulating a situation, getting Brooke into some other sticky mess. It's just, it started so on such a high note for Brooke. Like, I laughed when I jumped up on that table. I forgot about that. Like, God, I loved the physical freedom I had in her comedy to be big. And she's, like, reclaiming her power and then Rachel puts her on a dating app. You're so Italian talking with your hands. Using your arms and talking with your hands on that table. Just flailing all the time. I can't help it.

But, yeah, the stuff with the Brooke and Nick storyline made me so incredibly uncomfortable. And, you know, I know we've talked about a lot of this. And to echo Hillary's point, we're not trying to beat a dead horse. But I remember how uncomfortable it made me then. Before you even shot it or once you were shooting it, you were like, this is weird? The scenes, shooting the scenes, everything was uncomfortable. And the writers really liked to do this thing where they sort of dressed Brooke and Rachel up as these like promiscuity barbe. and would send them out pretending to be older and like seducing guys and it was just really

flash in my brain of the box that came art like right skipper and like now it'd be Barbie and then just like promiscuity Barbie in a box but now because it's now because it's now because it's 22 we'd be like sex positive Barbie right Christmas 2022 yeah like do you but also oh god I just didn't like it it made me really uncomfortable and And, and again, like, you know, not having like a ton of experience under my belt as a woman, like a young woman in my 20s, and playing someone on TV who was so sexualized. So I got, I got treated like I was like some wild child vixen in my real life because of Brooke. And it made me so uncomfortable. Would guys come up to you and talk to you in ways that you thought they never would if they didn't know your.

character. Oh, absolutely. I remember one night in a bar in Wilmington getting physically assaulted by, there were a group of Marines who were in from one of the bases. And these two guys put their hands up my shorts. And I, like, I'm sweating, even thinking about it. And I turned around and just like the first one close to me, I smacked him across the face and like shoved the other one. And I just started screaming. No shock. I was immediately on a soapbox about how they didn't deserve to wear a uniform. And every freedom they'd ever fought for was a fucking lie because they were just creepy and suddenly they're like, sorry, sorry. And they tried to make all these excuses about like watching Brooke Davis on the Armed Forces Network and how I was their crush. And I was just like

shaking and sweating. And when I turned to my right, there was Scotty Sabre. Oh, Saber. Yeah. And For our listeners at home, Sabre was like one of our best boyfriends on our show and a guy who worked in the AD department. And he was a wrestler, like a literal, actual wrestler. And he was just standing there. Like the kind of guy that can't put his arms all the way down. Yeah. He's just like built like a brick shed house. And he was standing there with his giant like, you know, rebar arms.

Yeah. Just red in the face and all the veins were popping out of his neck. And I looked at it. him and he was like I was really impressed watching you and you had it but just so you know I was ready to rip their fucking heads off if they had not apologized

and I was like oh so yes it's tangential but like that was the energy I was met with a lot out in the world when our show was on and it was so uncomfortable and it would even be like I don't know I'd go to like

a dinner event and depending on who I got sat next to it would run in the tabloids. It's like, she's dating. And I'm like, I said two words to that person at like a thing. I don't know him. Sometimes they were cute. I was like, can I get his number? Like, what is up? I'm like, if you're going to write the story, at least like somebody take me to dinner. That's when you send the apology to the agent. I'm so sorry. I don't know how that's happened. I am so sorry, but I'm very curious if this is a thing. so it was just like a weird it was a weird time and it was a weird um opinion to be met with to have people really think that you know i was this girl who would like dress up in short skirts

and go out and like bang older dudes in bars or like in classrooms it was just not comfortable and the actor who they brought into play nick um you know was polite like it's not even about him. It was about the the way these scenes were written and what they asked him to do and like ugh, it actually made me feel so good watching

how uncomfortable that scene made the two of you when you were like, wait, this guy's like talking about fantasizing about cheerleaders and he's a teacher. On a first blind date. And like Brooke doesn't know that he's a teacher so he feels like he has freedom to

like, you know, joke about that kink but gross yeah it was gross and it and it really i think because of what we were all going through behind the scenes it felt even grosser yeah because we knew that that was verbatim the fantasy of the adult men we worked with dude we do okay in terms of like storylines we just did the rachel cooper thing yes exactly Why are we doing this again? We're just lazy. Constantly doing the high school fantasy

with an older guy story. Over and over. And that's what was hard, I know, in season four for me and also for DeNeil with the Cooper stuff. You know, thank God Michael Truco is the nicest man on planet Earth. But we knew that we were being forced to film reenactments of our bosses' fantasies. And it just felt

gross. And interestingly enough, somebody tweeted me one of our Drama Queen's fans and by the way, I love when the boys call out men on their shit. Aw, babies. Yeah, there's this sweet man on Twitter,

Mark Corrigan, who tweeted at us and said, do you guys think they made Brooks 18th birthday an on-screen occasion to make sure the audience knew she was 18 before she started sleeping with her teacher? It always felt icky to me And like it was too big of a coincidence Wow

Yeah I'm sure it was intentional I'm sure it was You know Because did any of the rest of us have birthdays on the show I never did I only had the one I don't remember any other birthdays And it was a big deal about Brooke turning 18

And we had just had The Rachel storyline Where you know Cooper's what 25 with a 17-year-old, and he says, I am not going to do this. And she's like, well, 17's the age of consent in this state. It's like, no, that's, that's like pretty pedophile shit. And so they keep leaning into, we're going to tell you why it's, quote, okay.

Yeah. But this whole thing of like, do you still have your cheerleading uniform? Like, it is so clearly about fantasizing about teenage girls. And so the whole thing, I don't know, man, it just, it like washes this feeling of ickiness over me. And it was hard to deal with that on camera and then be met with it out in the world and feel like I had to be prepared for a fight. Yeah. If like all of us went out to play pool, you know, it was a weird, it was a really weird time. It may look different, but Native culture is very alive.

is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball.

Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a massacist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre?

Bad faith political warfare, and frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make?

Yeah, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. well i have to i have to leave and go pick up my son or not pick them up but gus is doing a mock trial of the salem witch trials at school and oh my gosh are you filming it send us a video of that it's going to be the greatest day of my life um i'm dying i want to be there sophia i totally feel what you're saying because the entire reason that peyton had to go to this press conference for nathan which like makes no sense was just to have an excuse for her to be in her cheerleading uniform because getting attacked in your uniform in a little short skirt

was hotter than getting attacked in what Peyton was wearing earlier during the day, which was like a tank top in jeans. Like this whole narrative about being at the press conference was manufactured just so that the attack scenes would happen in bloomers. Are you serious? Yeah, I remember that being like a whole conversation. Like we just have to get you in your uniform. And I was like, huh?

So I just made sure I was really sweaty and snotty and bloody. Like, how gross can I make my face? Yeah. So I totally feel what you're saying. But look, here's the upside. We got Ernest Waddell out of this episode. We did. I love him.

Such a cool artist. It would be really great to have Ernest on the show. Yeah. We need to get him because I think he's still in New York. And he went to NYU with Greenberg. We need to get Ernest. And we need to get Matt Barr because, you know, Our friends who got to come on tour got to hear from him,

but I do think it would be really special to be able to dissect this with him because he is just such a good human. Let's have him for prom for the prom episode. He's our prom date. Oh, my God. Prom date, that bar. I love you guys. I'm going to the Salem Witch Trials.

I love you. Go. We'll wrap up. So actually, when you were talking, I wanted to ask you, because there were other teen shows on the air at the time that were on and other other girls that were also objectified in the same way, their characters being, you know, hypersexualized and stuff. Did you ever talk with any of them? Did you guys ever sort of, do you ever run into anybody at a party or end up having kind of a similar

conversation? I mean, no, that was part of what was so weird, I think, for us, was just being in Wilmington. We were so isolated. Yeah. You didn't get a chance to talk with the gossip girl girls or the OC or any I didn't watch those shows so I don't know but I just know that was happening on the air in a lot of teen shows so maybe yeah no I mean partially I think because we were just so rarely at things together that's true you know I remember the summer and that was it yeah like the summer after I made John Tucker must die I did with I did that movie with Penn Badgley you know who was on oh yeah gossip girl and God Penn is just the sweetest sweetest human and at the time I don't remember when we made the movie or after.

I don't obviously know the dates of their relationship, but you know, him and Blake dated for a long time. They fell in love on that show. Oh, okay. They were a very sweet couple. And, you know, like I ran into them at the Teen Choice Awards. And it was like, hi, how are you and whatever? But, you know, you see someone in passing at an award show.

It's not like I could look at Blake. No, this is a conversation that happens when you're like at a table. You've been drinking. You start talking. Yeah. Yeah. You want to have like an experience to bond and get it. into something. And I think because we spent nine years so far away, occasionally they would make

it work so you could get home to present it the whatever, but then you'd come right back. So we didn't have sounding boards aside from each other. And I will say, you know, in this era, Daniel was back and forth because she was recurring. So she would come in for scenes and then go home to LA and you know you had just gotten married and you were like busy having this lovely moment and so what what was really helpful for me was in my friendships with like you know Jane Beck and Lee Norris and sweet Scotty Sabre and even James like we would all go out together and they they were some of the ones who really would call call out the way I would get approached

and when you look at like when someone says some of you and you turn your head and you've got Lee James and Scotty looking at you going they shouldn't talk to you like that and you go oh shit because I'm I'm in this moment where I'm thinking you know these people yeah maybe they said something inappropriate

or maybe the exchange was weird but their fans and my job is to be nice to them it was really having the boys begin advocating saying absolutely not where it helped to undo that girl culture of I'm supposed to be nice and sweet no matter what. Yeah. Yeah.

And that is something I will really always cherish. And I know we, you know, for you guys at home, you're like rolling your eyes at how much we talk about how good our boys are, but they really, really are. And, you know, those three boys, Paul, like they were the crew who kind of really helped me learn to clap back at that sort of treatment and that it's okay that it's okay for you to stand up for yourself and not just go okay yeah I guess I'll just I'll be the bigger person I just want to

I don't want to make waves and that by the way someone who's going to call you a bitch for saying please don't speak to me like that you don't know me is not a person whose opinion you need to care about anyway amen you know and then we've got lovely people like Mark Corrigan on Twitter, who are like, hey, I'm a dude here. And this made me so uncomfortable. And you just go, thank you. We really do. We have a good crew. Yeah. That validation that your first instinct is correct. And it's all right. You don't have to keep tempering yourself. Yeah, that you're allowed to have feelings, even if they aren't like, you know, nice and neat. I think that that's really important. And interestingly, kind of brings us back around to the point of the

episode right like that that i think is what nathan and haley illustrated the best in this episode five is that everybody's got all these feelings and they're not necessarily neat and clean yeah but to be able to process them together like that's really what gets you somewhere that is so true that's been one of my biggest lessons in life that i'm still learning is the that it's okay to have messy emotions it's just it's hard it's hard to I don't and I don't know if it's a girl culture I don't know if it I don't know what it is I mean I guess I know some guys who live this way too so maybe it's not gender based I don't know but the idea that like I want to do everything right like I don't I don't like the feeling of realizing I did something wrong or made a mistake it's a horrible feeling oh it's

terrible but the recovery from that and the growth those that that's what life's about that's where the interest in life is. It's not in the moments where you do everything right. It's in all the moments when you find you've got egg on your face and you have to apologize and then you grow and you get closer to somebody or you learn something that makes you a better person. So then you have something to pass on to another human being later on down the line. Yeah.

Yeah, it's important. And I think the fear that so many of us carry about screwing up can, in a way, if it gets too out of control, it can really hinder your ability to learn anything. Because if you're constantly worried that maybe you're not doing it exactly right, are you really present for the lesson? Ooh. Yes. I was like louder for the thing.

I love when I get you to lean back in your office chair. So good. You nailed it. I love it. Oh, we love it. you guys um okay so look we have a question from jonathan he wants to know if you could live in any character's house from one tree hill whose house would it be oh uh i think i would live in lucas's house i love that little craftsman cottagey feeling i love that style of a home i don't need a lot

i need land but i don't need a lot of house yeah oh man i i don't know it's funny i i have such association with obviously all of the houses on our show for the characters. I think the place I would be the most amped to have, you know, speaking of our shared love of, you know, land and being outdoors. I want Rachel's cabin. Oh, good call. Yes. That's the one I want. Okay. Yeah. Well, let's spend a wheel, guys. That's a good question, Jonathan. Thank you. We need a little bit of, we need a little bit of happiness. Now, by the way, I'm just thinking about how I would redo the cabin. I'm like, let's let's make that page TV show. We're going to have a Pinterest board to look at soon.

I know it. A hundred percent. Ooh, this one's good. Most likely to move back to Wilmington. Aw. That's sweet. Oh, my gosh. Who's most likely?

Well, Lee Norris did, right? Yeah, Lee and Andrea moved back to Raleigh. Oh, Raleigh. Oh, gosh. Who would want to go back to Wilmington? Honestly, you know who talks about it all the time is Barbara? oh yeah she loved living her there oh yeah i mean gosh i i don't know i think if i were ever able to like maintain a summer home like i would love i would love if we had like a place there yeah rightsville

figure eight or something oh it would just be so special but i got to say the the lack of a direct flight makes it a no-go for me i totally agree it's really difficult it is so hard to get there. Yeah. And, you know, my whole family and my, you know, my, my crew is 99% in Los Angeles. And the fact that it takes like a nine-hour travel day. Yeah. You know, first flight to last flight, not even like getting to and from the airport. Oh, my God. I know, because you have to wait for that layover. And it's Atlanta or Charlotte. It's the only two places you can go from L.A. anyway. Yeah, even from just coming out from Nashville was tough. I was like, man, I just wish it. From Nashville, there should be direct flight to the beach. I know. They're so

close. I know. Oh, God. Oh, Wrightsville Beach would get a lot more business if they did. I know there's a ton of flyover state people and landlocked people who would sure love access to that beach. But maybe they like it that way. Who's the big airline there now? We should have a chat with them. If we could get a direct flight going. Yeah, come on Delta. Come on American. Let's go. Yeah. You call it like the tree hill route. Let's go. Let's go. all right well i'm really hoping oh no i was just about to say i hope we get to laugh more in the next episode but i feel like is the next episode prom is it more derrick oh god i don't know i don't know either it's it's season four episode six it's called where did you sleep last night well

where did derrick sleep last night because he got up off the line i know well we're going to get more of ernest waddell for sure because he just got introduced so that'll be fun to get to know a little bit more. And then, I don't know, we'll see what kind of surprising things await. Thanks for joining us, everybody. Thanks, everyone. Hey, thanks for listening.

Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens, O-T-H. Or email us at Dramaquins at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl,

all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride And our comic girl Charing for the right team Drama queens, drama queens smart girl, rough girl fashion but you're tough girl You could sit with us girl

Drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens Drama queens drama queens It may look different But native culture is alive My name is Nicole Garcia And on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges We aim to explore that culture Somewhere along the way

It turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies.

From prologue projects and Pushkin Industries, this is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.