Drama Queens - Sensory Overload ᐧ EP610

Episode Date: February 19, 2024

This episode brings back a ton of warm feelings and there’s lots of reasons why. All those plus, Brooke’s sassy mom era, the advice chair spinneth and find out what scene had Joy and Sophia swooning!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. Smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl.

Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. well hello everyone welcome back you have me and sophia today hi guys out of pocket i think that's what that means right out of pocket i'm i'm on my phone out of the house is that what it used to mean and now it just means i'm unavailable yeah like your yeah you're out of pocket it became i think the sort of colloquialism for like out of ranger out of office right but it didn't it used to be like i'll be on my cell phone out of my pocket. My phone is in my pockets. I won't be in the office. I'll be out. But now it's something different. So I always get a little confused.

But anyway. Well, yeah, because now it's like you're actually unreachable, but no one's unreachable because we carry computers in our pockets, which is deeply stressful for all of us. Yes. Yeah. Let's talk about that. Okay. Well, thanks. Thanks everybody for joining us. Sofa, what do we have? What do we have today? Well, let me tell you, Joy.

today we have season six episode 10 even fairy tale characters would be jealous this originally aired november 10th 2008 would you like me to tell you what the episode is about would you please tell me what the episode is about yes yes darling i can read the synopsis for you on the day of peyton's uso concert haley battles stage fright and nathan is visited by an old friend which makes him question a decision that could change his career Brooke gets a call that threatens her relationship with Sam. Millicent confronts Marvin about his relationship with Gigi. Lucas tries to pull out of working with Julian after learning the news of Peyton and Julian's past. Angels and Airwaves makes a guest appearance.

And this episode was directed by sweetheart Janice Cook. Yes. And written by Nikki Shufflebane. We love both of them. Oh my gosh. Okay, first of all, Angels and Airwaves was so great. And it was really fun to see your face at the table. table when you're talking to. Okay, so here's a thing. My daughter who's 13 has a constant loop running in her mind that she never fails to remind me of, which is, mom, you are not cool.

Oh, that's nice. Yeah, it's great. It's great for the ego. So when you were sitting at that breakfast table looking at Sam and you said, are you so excited about angels and airways? I don't, that's it. You put your hands up. You made that face. And the way she looked at you was the way my daughter looks at me, reminding me that I'm not cool. Nevertheless, Angels and Airwaves was really great. They were so great. It was also, I just remember, I have such a sense memory. This is one of those episodes that I feel like in my bones, you know? I remember the way everything smelled and like how windy it was. It was one of those nights when we were on the base where it was so warm, but the wind was crazy, those like perfect nights

you get in the South. But, you know, I grew up in California. Like, I was a hardcore Blink 182 fan. That was my era. And so Tom DeLong, coming with his new band on our show, I was just like, oh, my God. And he was the sweetest, just like such a genuinely kind man to all of us, to everyone on the base. I was really so impressed because he was like a larger than life, you know, famous figure to me when he showed up. It was just, like, great to everybody.

Yeah. And that was cool. The whole band was. Everybody was just super professional. And it's always, I think it was always a little strange for bands coming in because it's a TV show and they did music videos and they did like concerts, but they didn't do TV shows. And so this might have been a little easier for them than a trick kind of situation because it really was a full. I mean, we really did a full concert for the entire bass. Lajune, right? In my head, it was Jacksonville Air Force Base, but I'm like, oh, maybe we were just in Jacksonville on a different base. Like, it all starts to mash together. Yeah, like, did we go to a, did we say it was the Marines, but we went somewhere else? I think so. I'm not sure if it was an Air Force Base or an Army base. But Derek, you know, the character Derek, real Derek, was established as a Marine, but I'm pretty sure I felt like it was.

a different base guys i'm sorry this none of none of our muddy memories are like interesting to listen to us try to figure out at all we're just like what was it hold on it was so long ago quick read the phone book but it was such a cool experience and i remember how special it felt to go up there um because jacksonville's only 45 minutes from wilmington and it was the reason that you know like on weekends if we went to shows at level five or you know out to the bars or whatever there were always, you know, people from the bases on their weekends off, like partying in Wilmington. And so it was really cool to be able to go and do something personal for them. It was really, really special.

You know, I know Hillary mentioned last week, and obviously she's not here this week to talk about it, but her friend Scott had passed away, and it really meant a lot to her to be able to do something with the U.S.O. And so it was this thing where it felt like a way for us to give back to part of our local community and it was so personal to her that I just remember even then knowing like this is really special. I had never been on a base before at all. Had you on a military base? No. No. My granddad was a Navy man, but, you know, that was obviously so long before I was born. So there's there's such like a deep respect for service in my family. Yeah, me too. It really was getting to know folks at the U.S.O, thanks to Hill, that led me to eventually

go on a U.S.O tour. And I visited a bunch of Air Force bases in Germany and Turkey. That's great. Yeah, it's like always really fun when I'm around Air Force guys now. We like trade stories. And it's such a, you know, it's such an incredible thing, I think, to devote your life to something like that. but it was neat that we got to do this

like basically in our own backyard yeah it was so close and then the interesting thing of putting on a concert for everyone there all the family's on the base it was also kind of a trip because to your point earlier we had a TV show to shoot so like we would do a take

and then we'd have to do another one and we were like guys bear with us there's going to be like a bunch of weird repeated things but then when the bands play they will actually just play. That's right. They organized it very well that day and I remember this because when we got there, we were filming all day long. We filmed all the scenes, all the backstage scenes, all of this stuff that was happening, even that was supposed to be happening during the concert backstage.

We shot all that ahead of time because we were only going to have the crowd for, you know, a certain number of hours and we didn't want to tell the crowd. The crowd wasn't part of our show. The crowd was there for concerts. We were putting on a show for them. Right. Right. They weren't like normal extras who are used who were like yeah we signed up for a 16 hour day today it wasn't that yeah yeah especially since a lot of them i mean most of them were military families and you know like we're not going to go be show up and go you know hey please serve us more now we're here for you so we did we we did get to shoot a lot of this stuff ahead of time and then once the night started setting in and we really shot that concert they had rehearsed they'd been rehearsing with the cameras all day

long. This is before drones were in action. So there were three or four giant, giant cranes with cameras attached to them. We brought in extra crew from Atlanta and possibly some guys down from New York, too, who were really adept at filming these big concert things that our directors just didn't have the experience with. And then Janice had the pleasure of rehearsing for that all week long, all prepping for that all months. And I was surprised. It went really smoothly. I was really, I was really blown away. Yeah, it was a really cool thing to watch. And I think that was part of the luxury of being six years into our show.

We had such a good rhythm and we functioned so well that they were able to take on this really big project and do this weird hybrid thing where it was a storyline for a show. But it was an actual event for the troops happening at the same time. And it was pretty wild. Yeah. It was nerve-wracking, and also watching this was kind of cringy for me because it was anytime I'm performing live is always a little cringy for me to watch back. Wait, why? I just don't.

I'm too, I just judge my, I'm too hard on myself. I'm too hard of myself in life anyway, so then to also have to watch my performances. I know there's some artists who really enjoy it. Like they learn so much because they can glean what went wrong and what didn't. I haven't evolved to that state yet. I would like to, but I'm working on it. But anyway, yeah, and it was weird. Is it such a weird time in my life?

And it just felt like, I mean, a lot of the band members were people that I was, you know, that I knew really well, that I was like, you know, had relationships with outside of the show, but that weren't, I wasn't in an actual bandwidth. And it was just so strange. So it was hard. And that, God, that red dress. I like it. It reminds me of the promo dress. The what? That like red and white promo dress from earlier seasons when your hair was really blonde and curly and long.

Like it gave me like flashbacks to earlier days of the show. I liked it. Thank you. Yeah. Well, yeah. Anyway, the concert was fun. We had a good time. Also, hilarious.

Did you notice the scene where Peyton and Sam and Derek are yelling? at each other, they're backstage, and clearly somebody told them there's going to be really loud music. Yeah. So you guys have to do all your dialogue. You have to yell over the music. Shouting to shout at each other. And no one is shouting in any other scene. No, but there also wasn't loud music. They walked off the stage to a section where there was no loud music. So it was just people yelling at each other like community theater. It was so funny. It was so insane. That's one of those things that happens where you're really just trying your best to guess how things that you're filming on completely different days are going to cut together. You have no idea what it's going to be.

And then in the sound mix, you're like, wow, it was really a shame. They didn't do any takes where they weren't all screaming over a concert that we've decided is basically going to dim down to like background elevator music behind every scene. What are you going to do about getting that call from the adoption agency? It's so bad. It is so bad. Okay. Where do we go? Because obviously shooting the concert was wild.

We've got a lot of technicalities, you know, that were firsts for us, despite the fact that we'd shot so much music and trick. This was, you know, a big undertaking and a big episode for all of us. these characters emotionally in their relationships. I loved when Lucas comes to tell Haley and Nathan about the Peyton and Julian history. And you're like, oh, I just love when the drama's not about us. Like, it was actually so funny. I felt it as an audience member. I was like, oh, yeah, they're having such a nice time encouraging each other to like pursue their dreams and everyone else is having a nightmare of a situation. Yeah, low, low drama, Haley. This is the season of low drama Haley. It's so nice. Yeah, that was funny. I really enjoyed the Lucas of, let's start

there. I'm like, I really enjoyed the Lucas of it all, because that was, first of all, I so deeply relate to Peyton, stop saying, okay, okay? I mean, it was a fun gag, but. It was so funny. That is one of my biggest pet peeves in a relationship when I communicate something, and then, yeah, person goes, okay. I'm like, okay, okay, what? Okay, okay, you have thoughts. Okay, you don't want to fight. So you're just saying, okay, to make it go away. Okay, you can't stand me and you don't want to listen to me anymore. Okay. You're going to do it and you have no problem. Like, what does that mean? Oh my God, my, the way I feel about it is I'm like, I just poured my whole heart and soul out to you and gave you minutes of details of my inner most vulnerabilities and

the feedback is okay. Hello? Like, If I've learned anything, that is funny on camera in real life, probably very indicative that you're not actually a match. Hard to swallow in real life. Although that is such an ADHD thing to pour out every possible detail that you could ever give. And then also on the other end, if someone is pouring all that out at me, often I get overwhelmed. And so my response might be, okay. But anyway, it was a fun gag. And I liked Lucas punching him at the door and then saying, okay, that was good.

Nice follow through. I really liked the turn as well, that he was just so even keel with Peyton that it freaked her out. And then he punches Julian. It's like, oh, there it is. There's the response that she's looking for. And I actually love that as their storyline ran through the episode in the end, she admits that she likes that he got jealous. Yes.

you know julian is more dastardly than i expected him to be i don't remember a lot of his storyline because we were in season six by now we were at the point where a lot of us aka me were reading scripts and kind of going my my line my line next page next page next page my line you know you just glean what's yours i was pulling the antoine move because i wanted to be surprised by what was going to happen in the episode surprise i didn't watch the episode so i never knew a lot of what was going on, and I had no idea. Julian was so dastardly. Yeah. Well, that was, I thought, so funny last week when we had Austin on, him saying that he didn't remember Julian being such a bad guy. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I, it's funny, I do. I remembered it really clearly because we'd known each other

for so long, and I was like, why are they making this, like, sweet human be a bad dude on our show? This is so weird and um and it was really interesting you know to see the way that they had his character turn over the years but i think that the that dastardly energy as you put it works because it yeah you just don't know what you're going to get from this guy and and remembering what it was like to watch these episodes before we knew where julian was going to go it's nice to be suspicious of someone in in the Peyton and Lucas world and it does give me something to do as Brooke

like when I really sit down with him to lay down a boundary and I love that both Brooke and Millicent are just like throwing the gods down with these people but I like that Brooke was able to yeah I like that I was able to use my own experience as a character

to be like yeah you've read the book so you know being in this love triangle is not a vibe enough like enough It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind of years.

you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn SageBurn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Brooke was really handling shit this episode. She was putting out fires left and right, giving advice on every turn, every corner with Lucas, explaining to him why he was being. irrational. Oh, I mean, what a thing for him to be so jealous. And it's like, bro, you almost married someone else. And I love when she's like, you tried to hook up with me when Peyton broke up with you. I'm never going to tell her, but you're an idiot. You know? And I do love the way that she is in this era. Like, Haley's in her no drama era. And Brooke is really in her sassy mom

era? Like she's momming everyone. She's momming Lucas and she's momming Julian and she's momming Sam. And it's just like, I love that energy for her of being like you all are being ridiculous. Even with Millicent. Oh, I was crying. Crying at that scene. We're only 18 minutes into this podcast. I can't even. Okay. This. Just the drama of it. And she's like, but wait. So she was in your bed. He was on the couch. Sophia, I rewound it three times. You do it. It was so funny. And at one point I was like, should I type this out so we can just read these lines to each other in this podcast because it's so brilliant that she comes in. I'm sorry, guys, we're bouncing all over the place, but this is really funny. Millie comes into the apartment. And she's like, there was a girl in my bed. And Brooke says, are you coming out? Are you coming out? Are you coming out? I'm so happy. Okay, great. And Millie's like, no, no. No. no you know something about Gigi and Marvin had a sleepover and she and and then my response is oh you guys had the three way like how amazing oh and then and then no it was just the two of that it was just her okay so she was with mouth no mouth was on the couch so what's the problem so he was a good guy I mean I don't know why she was there but clearly he was being like a good dude yeah and then to learn the thing that made me do a spit take was when it hit

It's, you know, when what Millicent is saying to Brooke, like, hits me. And we go into like, wait a second, you're saying you're a virgin. Wait, is that, okay, but there's other, you guys have, like, other relations. And she goes, the J's, H or B. No. And just every single thing to come out of Lisa, she was so stone cold. No. No.

Not that. No. I was sobbing. Yeah. Like, I want to go back and just do more of these scenes. Hilarious. For the giggle. Yeah, we needed a lot more of that. I hope we get more of that to come.

Yeah. But it was super satisfying. Even your face, the way that you were processing, okay, it's like finding a unicorn, finding a virgin who's living with her boyfriend and sleeping in the same bed and you're not having sex. What? But the look on your face was so fascinating. You were so fascinated. Yeah. And something that I remember being really important, And Lisa and I had so much fun building the comedy between Brooke and Millicent in our scenes. And it felt really important to us, particularly because a lot of the women on the show got poked about sex in weird ways with what we had to do with our characters. It felt really important to have it be funny and not shameful. Yeah, no, there was no judgment at all.

Yeah, to not have her be embarrassed and to not have me judge her, should have it be genuine fascination of like, I don't know anyone in this position. Yeah, Brooks on the opposite in the spectrum. She's been so just free, you know, free with what she wanted to do with herself, with her body, with her partners since she was in high school. So to encounter a grown woman who was not doing those things, she actually was doing what she wanted with her body and her partners, but in a different way. It was just so, so opposite.

It was really fun. I loved it. I really, really loved it. I'm still crying from it. I have to say. Okay. I also, there was something about the sort of revolving door in this episode at Brooks House. And then in the way that she had to sort of do the same thing and run around in a circle backstage at the concert. Like, everyone was just spinning through the advice chair with her. And I loved it. I wish you would have just sat down with a little poster next to you, free advice, come sit. Yeah, Brooke is really, she is. She's momming everyone and she's had to mom herself for so long. It feels like a really good, well, and I don't know if this is actually well thought out or if it just happened this way, probably because you were shepherding her character so well, but to see Brooke go through that arc of starting out as just a reckless teenager and then going through all the process.

of trying to reunite and connect with her mother and then realizing that was never going to happen. And now she's going to have to mother herself. And now she's figured out how to do that and she's ready to mother other people. I mean, it's a really brilliant slow burn arc. Yeah. Yeah. And it is interesting because it leaned into something that I very naturally do. Like, I am often the person who my friends come to for the advice, for the thing. I want to, I am very solutions oriented. I like to help. Like, acts of service are my big love language. And it's funny to watch that get put into this character that I loved playing so much with so much comedy. I just really enjoy it. And even to go from,

you know, her figuring all of this stuff out with Millicent to then Luke is coming to her to be like, you know, and finding out like, you knew about Julian. And she's like, I was the practice dummy. You know. Like, please. I'm so far. I'm all you. Like, we're not doing this. And I love. And I love. that while she sort of sasses him to get him back on track and make him realize that this double standard is utterly ridiculous, that she also, like, in her sassy way, gives him some really good advice and hopefully a way to feel less threatened

with that whole story about what it means to rebound and to say, like, you always fall in love with your rebound, but it isn't real, your brain's playing a trick on you. Yeah, how does he not know that, though? And I was like, ooh, That feels like something we should talk about on the podcast. Yes. Falling in love with the rebound.

It really is such a cliche, but it's true. Aren't clichés, cliches because they're so universally true? Of course they are. And that's why there's nothing wrong with them because it's just a pattern of human behavior. It means you're not alone. It means you're normal. It means you're just trying to figure out life like everybody else. And we all make mistakes.

And there's no way to not make a mistake. There's just no way. But it makes me giggle thinking. back, I mean, on all of our last two decades, I'm like, wow, we've really all looked at each other and been like, no, but it's not a rebound. I really, I'm so happy. And you're like, okay, I'll be here either way. Man, I know, I think back on my first relationship after my divorce and the, just the things that I said to people, how sure I was, you know, the manifesto what it was written about how this is just like the real thing forever and ever. And oh my gosh,

now looking back, it's like cliche after cliche. And you can see all the glaring problems. And you can also see all the lovely patient people around me who were just like, we love you. Okay. Okay. Exactly. Okay. I also think, though, it's like, come on. We had such a wild time, not dissimilarly to our characters. We got catapulted into very grown-up life, very young. The normal sort of early 20s, like growing pains and stumbling things that all of our friends got to do, we had to sort of leapfrog over. And I think in a lot of ways, I mean, I know we've talked about this,

but I think in a lot of ways we all sort of went through the normal early 20s stuff in our early 30s. 100%. Like once we finally got out of our set, because we were sort of in Groundhogs Day. And it's not lost on me that I'm like, oh, man, well, of course you were so there at that age. Because, like, in a way, you were also, like, mentally 25. Yes. And no shade to 25-year-olds. You're wonderful.

We were fun then, too. But, you know, you learn a lot. And now, like, from this vantage point, us being in our 40s, I look back and I'm just like, oh, man, you know what, I respect about us, we really, when we say something, we commit. 100%. Yep. All the way. Just go for it. I think that's so true that we just evolve. Like, every stage of life has to be had. It just doesn't always happen in the traditional order. I definitely lived out my 20s and my 30s. And I definitely have even found, and maybe this is something that happens to a lot of women in their 40s, but I found that I'm going back to my middle schoolish, elementary middle

schoolish years and sort of hashing out some of those things and rehaving moments. You know, you're raised with ideas about who you are and we receive messages from whoever, parents, siblings, friends, the environment, and we just take it in. We don't necessarily tell anybody that we've decided this is information that is true about us and then we just carry it and we carry that for the next 20, 30 years until suddenly we go, wait a second, why do I believe this about myself? Wait a second, why do I believe this about other people? I have to go back and start unpacking all those things. And it's funny to go back and go through a stage that wasn't had properly because of whatever

circumstances were in life. And I think we just do that. We're constantly cycling through all the phases. but not necessarily in order. Yeah. Well, I think it's also why you hear so many people talk about how free they feel when they turn 40. Because you start to realize what you're carrying that you didn't decide to pick up. Yeah.

Like the biggest shift for me in the last year is to realize I've been walking around with my arms full of stuff people have handed to me and said, this is who you are and this is what you should be doing and this is what you owe people and this is what. And it's like, okay, okay, okay, yeah, I got it, I got it, I can handle all of this. And then you look around one day and you go, but what do, what do I want to carry? Yeah. What do I want to do? What, what, how do I want to serve? What, what do I want to choose instead of accepting what's chosen for me? What do I want to choose for myself?

Yeah. Why am I holding all this stuff? It's not mine. Yeah, it's like, it's a wild and beautiful. part of evolving and all of the women in my life are like oh yeah you're hitting that moment and like all my friends in their 50s are like oh this is when it gets good and then they have all this advice about the next 10 years and I'm like I don't know I love it I love it there is a not giving a shit in a really good way that that feels it feels freeing it's not it's not

calloused or hard, I think that's what actually feels freeing about it, is the freedom to, you know, we've talked about lovingly detached frequently, but the feeling of like, I don't have to close my heart off, which is kind of what I always thought I had to do in 20s and 30s. Like if I'm going to, if I'm going to, I don't know, set a boundary, set something down, like not hold something. It doesn't, I used to just, the only way I knew how to do it was to just put up a wall. And now it's like, I feel like I've got the freedom to be able to still have a soft heart and not have a wall, but also be okay with not holding the thing that's not mine. I mean, I'm not perfect at it, but I'm learning.

And I think that's a thing in your 40s that, thank God. I think a softening is part of growing up, for sure. And I think it's also, it's part of why I appreciate some of what feels. like ridiculous and funny on our show because these characters are so young so very often they're really like serious about things and like Brooke especially is you know she's so intense like you know in the way that Austin was talking about watching some of these scenes and being like what was I doing why did I seem like such a creep as Julian I'm watching myself in this episode and I'm loving so much of it I love the dialogue I love the energy and then I'm telling

Sam, she's going to be safe with me and I'm never going to kick her out of the house. And I was like, what was I doing? Why was I communicating with her? Like, it was so serious. I was like, that is not how I would have said that now. None of those words

would I have chosen to do in that way as the actor I am today. What would you have done differently? I don't know. I think at like 25, I was like, I don't know how to talk to a teenager about how they get to live with me. Like, I what does that mean and you know I was so like no and I don't know I was like grimacing at her

maybe because it felt so serious but I was like oh man I would now I would be like come with me to a quiet spot and like look at me and tell me what you're afraid of and let me tell you I'm here like I it would just be so different and I was like oh man look at me as a little kid trying to pretend like I knew what grownups did right isn't this how we do it yeah like like silly relationship advice among all of us tracked for me. Oh yeah. But like you are my child and you will live with me and you will never be kicked out on the street. I'm like, what am I doing? Because Victoria never did that for her. Victoria was always so ambiguous and so noncommittal that of course she went. We always do the opposite of whatever our mothers do and then we turn out to be our mothers, of course,

somehow. But of course, she's doing exactly the opposite of what she received from Victoria. I actually think that scene really worked because I think Sam's character needed that. She needed somebody to fight for her. She sat across the table from so many social workers and therapists and probably a lot of foster parents who were, you know, gentle and soft. And it didn't match her. She has a bubbling swamp of complication and anger and frustration and all of these things inside of her that to be met with someone that sees that and can combat it and not just combat it, but hold space for it and even overpower it. That felt it really worked.

I think that's why she was crying. The look on her face. My God, she's such a good actress. I know. She's such a cutie. Okay, fine. Maybe I don't dislike it as much as I thought I did. But we would handle it differently now.

Yeah. For sure. That's why she needed to. Brooke, though. Yeah. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional.

It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind of years. You carry with you a sense of. purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream listen to burn sage burn bridges on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever

you get your podcasts it's interesting to me that in the way that brook is being so firm with so many people i love you know especially like she's really firm with sam lovingly and then she lays down the law with Lucas and lays down the law with Julian and, like, is really doing all these things. I loved seeing Millie mirror that because Millie and Brooke have been there for each other so much in this, you know, business evolution of our show and close over bros being what it is. And to see her go and then lay down the law with Gigi, I was like, yes, Millie, go. Yes. Yes.

I loved it. That was a really interesting storyline. I have to say, I was looking forward to them. coming back to see what was going to happen. I, I, man, the Gigi thing is it bothers me a lot. Me too. As I said before, it doesn't read like a young woman in charge of her sexuality and who knows who she is and knows what she wants.

It reads trauma to me. And well, and what it is is a grown man writing his fantasies for how women would approach him. Yeah. And essentially breadcrumming that, like, well, what's a guy to do when these hot girls in short skirts just keep hitting on him? It's the same thing that they did with Uncle Cooper with the Rachel storyline years ago. Oh, that's right. But she's in her cheerleading uniform and she's taking off her clothes.

And yeah, she's only 17, but what's he to do? It's like it's so ick, ick, ick, for me. This is so the like... it still reeks of that 90s purity culture that I particularly grew up in in the evangelical church of like men, but, you know, men are just like, well, we get two messages. The first is the men are the most important and most powerful, but the second is men are weak and they just can't handle it. What are they to do if you're wearing a tank top around them?

Oh, no. God forbid spaghetti straps. Yeah. The amount of times I got dress coated. but like it's just so it's so um wrong offensive all of the above oppressive all of the above and so i felt like that's what i was watching more of yeah of that oh yeah we're all just sirens wait god god forbid you know a shoulder happens to be seen or an ankle and what it also does is like jiji's entire job here is to be in a

appropriate and throw herself at this man, she has no input on work, no thoughts about journalism. This is my note. I wrote this in my notes. I wish we knew she was amazing at her job. Yeah. You know, like... Just because it felt like that would give me some context for why she's still around. Yeah. Because otherwise, it really makes mouth look like genuinely weak. Because why is he not just being like, go, go home i don't i don't want you working for me i don't want you in my life i don't want you in my relationship this is inappropriate i'm calling hr go but if she was exceptional at her job now we have some complication and some drama like i can't fire her she's you know she's the best out there where she's like i don't know i ran out of things to say yeah if she had the same sort of um sports knowledge that mouth does remember when he has his save the day scene

episodes ago where you know the the announcer fails and so he's like this is what happened and you know he becomes this incredible sports guy if if gji knew more about sports than mouth and was like a badass camera woman and and together it's like let's pull the footage from the you know 1999 state championship and da da da da you would love their working dynamic and then if she said something inappropriate to him or whatever it would it would slide in between their greater relationship and their work, and it would actually be human and interesting. Yes, exactly.

But, you know, I mean, what a credit to Kelsey, because she's been given essentially one thing to say over and over and over again for months, and she is so bubbly and dynamic and funny that she's still so enjoyable to watch. She is, like, I hate this character now. Yeah, I hate what they made her do, but I love watching her and I love her presence. And it was so nice to see her have a more human moment at the end of the episode and apologize and say,

I'm really not, I don't want to get in the middle of your relationship. I'll try to be better. I was like, oh, I just want to see more of Kelsey growing and acting. Like, I want to just watch her. Yep We got to get her on the show Guys we have talked with her a little bit Back and forth

She's always flying off to this and that Well she's so busy shooting I know she's so busy But we're going to get her on Because I do have a lot of questions for her about She was so young when she joined the show And then even coming on a few years later It was still

I mean she probably 19 or 20 there In today's episode Yeah I mean if If that Yeah. I wonder what her thoughts were on that and her parents. And if she had these discussions with her parents or did she just like show up and say all these lines and wake up in boys' beds and be like, okay, mom. You know, she was just so sweet and bubbly. And you know who else we had back was Quentin? I was so happy to see Robbie. Yeah. Also, I really appreciate the way he and James played those scenes because they could have felt so weird. And, and the way when Quentin pops up in front of Nathan, James does the startle thing.

Yeah. And like, they just, they put just enough humor in it that it made it work instead of having it be the weirdest thing that could happen. You know? Yes. Like, they didn't take themselves too seriously to just the perfect, like, little dial-up of humor. Yeah. I wasn't quite sure where they land. ended with all of the with their conversation though were you because it seemed like he was saying

no it's good I don't need to play slam ball I'm good I like my family then Quentin was like yeah no but you have more to offer them if you're following your dream uh-huh and then Nathan says hey to Haley let's always follow our dreams yeah but maybe he's still staying home I don't I don't know I was confused It felt to me like Quentin was pushing him to be his biggest self, you know, as you said. Yeah. I thought it was really sweet that with Derek, you spoke about your family being so central. Yeah. And then with Quentin, Nathan spoke about his family being so central. Yeah.

But when he says, then you owe it to them. be the best version of yourself. And then you come home. And I felt like Nathan was beginning to travel down the road of you should be doing your music and I should be, I should be chasing my dreams too. And we know it's not going to be slam ball because they just won the championship. But what will that mean? Will he try to play basketball? Will he try to be a coach? I mean, obviously, we know where the show goes. Well, he couldn't go back and play slam ball in the next season? I don't actually know what happens immediately. I don't either. I just know where we wind up and I'm like, well, he'll chase his dream too. But it is interesting to me that it feels

like he's beginning to breadcrum a conversation based on this, you know, experience he's had, you know, with this imagined or whatever conversation he's had. I love the Quentin walking through the wall, the good old highway to heaven, wouldn't walking off the wall. That was really funny. Yeah, that is, he's starting the conversation. It's a very real thing. I don't know how well I can relate to it

because I raised my daughter on my own and I was working and raising her at the same time and that was really my only option was to work and also have help and be home with her. But there are a lot of people who let go of dreams for the sake of staying home with their family because that becomes a bigger dream or maybe it always has been

or maybe it's out of necessity. You know, not everybody gets the privilege of following their dreams the way that they want to. Well, and I think there is a practical reality that there is always a trade-off, right? Yeah. Yeah, to everything you say yes to,

you're saying no to something else always. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, obviously it didn't land where I thought it would. But, like, I took a year off in pursuit of the family dream. Yeah. And it's a very weird thing when you cross the bridge and you realize it's not the bridge you thought it was going to be. And you don't get that time back.

Yeah. And, you know, no matter what it is, there's no way to hold everything you want to do at the same time. You can, it's like that adage, right? You can have it all, just not at the same time. Yeah. The sort of seesaw of it, you know as a single mom, you know, so many of our friends, know, as, you know, either single parents or one half of, like, very, of couples who have to travel for work. like in whatever way we experience it, the trade-offs are big and it's a hard thing to do. And so it is very interesting to watch both Haley and Nathan in this drama-free time in their relationship,

ponder their joy, but also what more they might want for themselves. Yeah. What is this going to look like for us? How do we, do we want more kids? Do we want? Do we want? want to go off and pursue music and sports and all of these things that we want, you know, how, how, and also the idea of is it, is it all about just us and our dreams and my individual dream and your dream? And is, is there, is service involved? Is community involved in that? It's, it's such a Western ideal to think it's all about me and me accomplishing my dream and me fulfilling what I want. There's so many cultures in the world where the community is the most important thing, your family is the most centric thing and you do what you can

to sacrifice for them. And fulfillment comes in so many different ways. That, yeah, it's funny. It's funny to go through the motions of chasing the thing that you think you want, then getting it and being like, this is not. Being like, uh-oh. What I wanted. Yeah, like, whose life is this? Right, right, right. Well, it's really interesting. You know, my best friend and I have this conversation a lot that one of the things we really love about each other and our friendship is that we are, we said it earlier, you and I, like, we are all in kind of people. Yeah. And we've both learned to not be afraid to be like, I gave it my all and you know what, it's not for me.

Yeah. Okay. Next. Yeah. And I think there's something really interesting about that. And I think the the tessellations of that experience. Oh, what's that word mean? Like, remember when we would do, did you ever study Escher tessellations in math?

Like the shapes that repeat in every direction. And so, like, no matter which way you look at them, they go on sort of forever. Oh. So this sort of like, like there would be a chair and then it would rotate around and around and around. It was, I'll send you a thing about it. But essentially the idea, when you think, about like you could have this experience where you get something and then you go I thought I wanted this and I don't or I thought this was really good for me and I realized this is a toxic

dynamic however you define it not for me moving on or like one one tessellation over it's the same life but let's take haley and nathan for example you're in this moment where your family life feels really good your romance feels really good your kid is doing great you're both really happy, but maybe you're happier in the we than in the individual me. And you go, I did like being on stage tonight. I did really miss it. I love that thing that I do. And he's like, yeah, I do want to be here for my family. And I also love basketball. And you have to sort of figure out how you have what you love and also might want more. And like you were saying about community and sacrifice,

and we were saying earlier about the sort of seesaw. You can have it, but maybe not all at the same time. How do you start to figure out what side goes up and what side goes down and how you can achieve your goals, but also be in your family or, you know, whatever? And I like getting to see you guys do that. Yeah. Because more often than not on our show, we just have these characters with these illogically phenomenal, successful lives.

Yes. And I just like seeing a family trying to figure out, like, what they want. Yeah. It feels nice. It does. Nice and normal and no drama. Yeah. It's good.

That's what I might know. It's a glimpse of two people fighting for each other and themselves. Yeah. Just, we're just on the same page. We're going to figure it out. Just stay with me. Well, and what I like, too, is that that idea, this nugget of don't give up on your dreams. If you're lucky enough to be alive and to have a chance, don't you throw it away?

And I like that you see that breadcrumming with Nathan and Haley. And then it cuts to Peyton. And she does the same thing for Lucas. And she's like, you cannot give up on this movie because you don't like this guy. No way. You have to go after your dream. Like, you're lucky enough to be getting it. It's going to come true. You have to be. a part of it. And I really, I like that. Yes. I'm excited. This felt, I liked this episode because it felt like a good bridge. There was, aside from just enjoying watching and seeing Kate Vogel back, Mia, by the way, Mia and Sam, I loved that dynamic. That was so great. I don't know if we get more of that, but I hope we do. I'm just so bummed that the term boomer,

like in the way we use it now, wasn't in the lexicon then. because I would have given anything for Mia to be like, yeah. I mean, Brooke and Peyton and Haley are cool, but like they're boomers. Call me. You know. That would have been great. It would have been so great. I was a little like, oh, she said that.

I know. But then I was like, no, she's right. She's right. She was a young cool girl to hang out with. Yeah. Good influence. But as much as it was, you know, we got to the fun of seeing Mia and then Angels and Air.

waves and I loved that, but amidst all of it, just starting to piece together the things that are leading to whatever's coming next. I thought Nikki did a really nice job of weaving all that together in an interesting way. There was never a moment that I was bored, which sometimes these episodes can, for me, if it's a bridge episode that's setting up new things, it can start to feel a little expisional and boring. I didn't feel that way. I didn't either. I really thought they did a good job. I actually even, I had a note that earlier in the episode, in an early scene with you and James, when Nathan's encouraging you and you're talking about, you know, having had the nightmare, he brings you back to that, remember the first time you sang for me

in the cafe? And it's, it is exposition, but it was so well done. It really just felt like a great story and a romance. And I literally was like, and I literally was like, Like, the cafe story is exposition done right. Yeah, exactly, exactly. It felt so good. Remember this? Remember? But yeah, it was a lovely, it was just a lovely throwback.

Nikki did such a great job making this all feel real. Yeah. It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind of two years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history.

On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story. along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, do we have fan questions? We sure do.

And actually, this is a good one for you. It's from Riley, and it says back in 2008, I remember hearing rumors in the media that Nathan and Haley were going to adopt a child. Was there ever going to be a storyline that Haley and Nathan adopted Sam, or was it always meant to be Brooke who adopted Sam? Oh. Did you ever think Haley and Nathan were going to adopt? Okay, it sounds familiar, but I don't know if that's because I wanted to, like, I've always wanted to adopt at some point in my life. So I don't know if that was just a discussion that maybe I had with, I don't know. Did you ever hear anything about this?

Here's the thing. This, I do not ever remember hearing this, but I also earlier today on a call was reminded of a speaking engagement that I did years ago where I interviewed. like a very famous author. And when I tell you, until I was reminded of it, I literally had no recollection. Like if you'd asked me if I'd met this man, I'd be like, no. But he's in like every, you know what I mean? Like, I'd be like, no.

And then I was like, oh, my God, I interviewed him. I've got people like that in my life. But it was like such an out of context, random thing to do that my brain forgot about it. Yeah. So as I'm reading Riley's question, I'm like, I don't ever remember hearing that rumor, but that doesn't mean that it didn't exist.

Totally possible. I know that the Sam storyline was always in Brooks sort of vertical because Sam shoplifted from her and then we get where we get with Xavier later, with the Sam overlap. It was always really wrapped up with her for me. Yeah. I think the thing that was a bummer for me was not being able to keep Ashley on the show with us. Like, I don't know, I think it would have been kind of cool if she'd always stuck around. Yeah, it definitely would. But she needed to go star on her own TV show, so good for her.

That's right. Yeah, that would have been really cool. No, I think Sam was always meant for Brooke. She had to have been. But it would have been cool if Nathan and Haley had adopted. That would have been great. That would have been neat. Yeah.

It would have said a really great example, actually. An honorable mention. Oh, gosh. What do you got? What was your honorable mention? I didn't think about that this episode. I mean, can I make the scene between you and Millie, my honorable mention? Honestly, it's mine.

Yes. I want us to do a dramatic reading next week so bad. I wish we had the script. I 100% would read that with you right now. I'm not kidding. I rewound it three times. Crying, laughing. Oh, my God.

So good. Yeah, I thank God was wearing a black sweatsuit because I did a full. actual spit take with coffee and was like, well, here we go. Cut to Sophia on her hands and knees cleaning coffee off the carpet in the hotel room. The fascination on my face and the absolute blank. Um, Lisa's, I'll never forget it. I'll never forget it.

Oh, let's spin a wheel. Yeah, let's see what our most likely to is this week. Is it going to be most likely to move in with their boyfriend and never sleep with them? Oh, speaking of Sam. Most likely to get arrested for shoplifting. I mean, well, yeah. On the show, it would absolutely be Sam. Brooke just didn't call the cops.

That's right. That's right. Oh, my God. Wait, Joy, we got arrested for shoplifting in the early. We're stealing back all the close over bros clothes. That's right. Like there's a famous photo of you and me and Hillary in jail on the show for that. Oh, that's right.

That was funny. I forgot. Only time I've ever worn an orange jumpsuit. Yeah, I don't know who in real life. I don't know. Who would, well, who would shoplift and then also get arrested for it? I don't know. Like, I'm too much of a chicken.

No way. I can't even steal a pack of gum. I'd go home and not be able to fall asleep. I was, like, helping work at a fair at my school in the fourth grade. And I, like, picked up an eraser from one. of the tables. And I don't know if I meant to or I just forgot or I was walking around, whatever. Two hours later, like, I realize I have an eraser in my pocket and I'm sobbing. And I'm like, I took this. I stole it. I hadn't even gone home. I was like sobbing hysterically.

And I don't know. Like, I think it scarred me for life. Were you sobbing because you thought you were going to be in trouble or you? I mean, maybe or I felt bad because I had put something in my pocket that didn't belong to me. I don't know. I don't know what my plan was. Like, I don't remember obviously what my brain was thinking in the fourth grade. Just like the hysterical weeping at like the shame that I felt. Absolutely not. I couldn't. It's not me. No, no, I'm not a, I'm not a stealer. I don't know, I don't know anyone on our show who is. I mean, the only thing I could think of is someone who was like maybe trying to do something sneaky for fun and then it was bad at it. I don't know even who that would be, though, either.

Who would be bad at shoplifting if they had to do it? We're not good at this question. Probably Hillary. I feel like she would try and be like sneaky super spy and would just be clumsy and I don't know. Well, maybe the moral of this story is we should just all like try to not steal. I think that's a good moral of this story. Don't steal folks. That's probably what's good.

All right. Next episode, season six, episode 11, We three, My Echo, My Shadow, and Me. Oh, sounds emo. Something's going to happen. Well, thanks for joining us, everybody. This was fun. See you next week, pals.

Bye. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's OTH. Or email us at Drama Queen's at IH. ArtRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school,

drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you're tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens.

It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.

Thank you.