Drama Queens - Sitting In Grief ᐧ EP604

Episode Date: December 11, 2023

The girls visit the aftermath of Quentin’s death, Brooke’s confrontation with Victoria and Deb’s reveal of her relationship with Skills. Find out what left them emotional, confused and somewhat unfulfilled. Plus, Nanny Carrie’s return and an eye-opening question from a fan!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. From prologue projects and Pushkin Industries, this is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens.

We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. You could be smart, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama, drama queens, drama queens. Queens.

Oh, I mean, we both got on the Zoom and took a deep breath. This was emotional. Yeah. Guys, we're back, season six, episode four, Bridge Over Troubled Water. The episode aired September 22nd, 2008. There was a lot going on. Yeah, it really, like, I don't want you guys to think this is going to be like a really down. episode of Drama Queens, but I think we're both like recovering from this episode. We're going to

find our way through. But I'm, I'm a little, I don't mean I'm low energy. I'm just like kind of in this state of, I was lulled into a state of comfort and longing and grief like all at the same time. And I haven't figured out where to where to put it. Well, I think that's a really good way to put it because there's a lot of potential and there's still a lot of sadness and there's a lot of really big themes being processed in this episode. And I was going to laugh because, you know, it's for our friends at home, you've got Joy and I tonight. We don't have Hillary this week.

And normally she's the person who will crack the joke you need that's like really inappropriate when everyone is crying. And you and I are both just crying. So let's see how we do. It's okay. It'll be therapy. Oh, good God. All right.

So after learning of Deb and Skills Affair, Affair, is that what it's called? Relationship, whatever it is. Nathan tells Deb. Secret relationship. Secret romance. Nathan tells Deb she needs to move out, kicks her out.

Jamie's insistence to visit Grandpa Dan brings Haley closer to discovering his disappearance and then she investigates. Brooke seeks counseling now that her mother has stolen her fashion company and then goes to confront her armed. Literally. That was wild. Peyton is excited to find singer Mick Wolf in her studio who also knew her late mother,

Ellie and her biological father, who is a mystery man. Lucas tries to motivate the Raven basketball team after losing star player Quentin Field and Nanny Carey still going at it, reappearing in Tree Hill, wandering through the Scott household, in fact. So creepy. I'm like, don't you think they would have changed the locks after that woman tried to kidnap their child? How did she get in?

You would think. I'm like, wait a second hat. I did love the nod to fatal attraction with her picking up the hamster. Was it a hamster? The bunny. The bunny. It's a bunny. Oh, Chester's a bunny, of course.

Yeah. Yeah, that was pretty funny. Yeah, it was like, oh, boy, we're really, we're just in it tonight. This is one of the strange, unexpected things about our job here on this show is on this show, drama queens. that um like we all have a lot going on i'm sure all of you listeners can relate to that and you're not always in a space or in the mood to drop in and be emotionally present for something that you don't know what the journey's going to be you don't know what you're going on and it's like okay we carve out time

and all the everything's buzzing around and the kids are knocking on the doors and the phones are ringing and the texts are popping in you have to just shut everything down and to just drop in and watch and I'm so glad I did, but it is a weird, I was like, man, I just did not want to be emotional today. I was working and busy and like not in the mood. But I'm glad that I did. I feel like it's nice to have a little heart check in. Yeah, it's sweet. And I will say I realized that I had to surrender to it very quickly because with the opening of Nathan playing with Quinn in his head,

seeing them together on the river court, it was so hard because I miss him already and I knew he'd disappear and I didn't know when he'd disappear. So immediately I was like, no, don't go. And I thought, oh boy, here we go. And every one of them. Yeah. And I was glad that with you and Jamie, we got the context. I thought it was a really good way to do exposition. Yes. You know, have a little boy ask Haley, how long has it been? And you could say it's been eight days. Eight days. Yeah. So we could understand the freshness of it all. Um, I like that we're not moving on from it too fast. I do too. That was a bad habit that we would do a lot. A lot of shows would do that at that time, which I don't know why when they had 22 episodes. Because now things get drawn out

for an entire season on a six to 13 episode show. I don't know why. They had to just feel like they cranked all the storylines out. But I agree. I'm so glad they took more time with this. I needed more, Quentin. Yeah. And I'm just glad we got, we're getting to sit with it. I know we talked about that last week, too, that the funeral episode took its time. This episode to me felt like it really put its foot on the gas. There was a lot going on. but I do feel like it worked. Yeah, the aftermath of grief, which, or sorry, the aftermath of a massive loss, so living in the grief,

but the fact that life has to go on, there are functional things that need to be done. Yeah. And kind of watching people live in the mundane while feeling such a catastrophic loss. Yeah. I think it's so related. Yeah. Well, because that's what it is, right? When you're going through something like that,

when someone that you love dies unexpectedly and you have to go to work and you're just like... Or the grocery store. Yeah, like, what are we doing here? You look around at all these people and you think, like, what are you doing? Like, who are you talking to? What's making you smile? Everything is broken. But for most people, it's just not. Just a normal day. It's for you or your or your circle. And I think that that, I don't know, it's something that's, I think for everyone who's ever lost someone, this feels sadly familiar, but really, probably really tender. Life is fleeting. Our time here is short. To honor the fallen, we must live our lives well. This is Lucas's quote at the beginning of the episode. It's really good. And the boys on the

basketball team really jumped like that i mean that's what got me like every time the ravens were on screen i was oh yeah and quentin's mom coming in oh to don lewis god i mean don is just so incredible but as this character her coming in and and reminding these young people like you have to keep going and and you get to carry him with you yeah it's such an important lesson. Yeah, she addressed it. Like, don't feel guilty that you're playing without him or that you're leaving. You don't feel like you're leaving him behind. We're actually carrying him out onto the court with us. Yes. You have to go out and play. That is the hardest, the hardest thing to do after losing somebody after a big loss to just like get,

I mean, get back up on the proverbial horse. It's just a, yeah, such a not eloquent or sufficient enough metaphor for this. But yeah, it's, I loved that she did that. I needed to hear that too. Yeah. It got to the core for me. I loved that the way that they had her speak, those words was so specific. And I thought the choices were really meaningful because she says, play your hearts out.

Yeah. She's literally saying, like, play the pain out of your heart. Mm. Ugh. You know? And she says, don't feel like you're moving on without him. Yeah. You move on with the people that you've lost.

And it, watching them play was powerful. I love that they lost. I thought that was powerful. They're processing loss. And then the notion that the whole town stayed and waited for these boys, I know I want to sob, waited for these boys to, you know, shower and have their team conversation and clapped them out of the gym, it's like it immediately made me think of two of the most famous quotes from our show. Somebody told me that this is the place. Yeah. And your art

matters. Because for these boys, like sports and art, like these, these makers of culture in our society, even at a school level, like sport is artistic. And it requires. Yes. requires this team energy and look how much it matters to all these people. And they make sure these kids know it and that they don't feel alone. Oh, sucker punch me right in the heart. Oh, boy. I hope that you friends out there have watched this episode recently. If you haven't, you really probably should just hit pause and go watch the episode and then come back to us so that you can really. And we'll all cry together. I don't know, I don't know where else, I mean, I have so many notes, but, and I don't want to lead us if you have anything you want to jump in or say, I'm happy to go anywhere.

My next note is on Peyton and then I have broken therapy. Yeah, yeah, I know. It's hard to, like, know where to go when the theme is so big. But I do, I actually think Peyton is exactly the right place because, you know, she is the character who's also been through such big loss. And she's on the other side of it. Yeah. And Quentin is this shared loss for everyone in the community.

And Peyton's loss was so personal. And with Mick showing up at Red Bedroom, this is the first time she's ever gotten to hear stories about her mom from her mom's community. Yeah. Yeah. Like she gets a window into Ellie's world. I have a question. Yeah. Did I miss an episode where we met this guy before?

No, he's a total surprise. And is this a famous, I think he's a cameo of some famous musician or something. And so the only way we know of him is that Mia told Peyton she met a guy on tour who knew Ellie. Right. So we've just heard about this guy. We've heard about him. But we have no idea who he is. And so I think that's part of, you know, we love a mystery act on our show.

I think part of the Mr. Act is that Peyton's freaking out about this, you know, famous guitar player. And oh, my God, what are you doing here? And I have, you know, records you've played on on my wall. And then it's like, holy shit, are you my dad? Right. Oh, my gosh. And I love that they keep the mystery of it going.

And I thought he did a really beautiful job. Yeah. Sort of dodging the question, but creating this. this intimacy with her that really does feel quite tender and parental. It doesn't feel like some guy hitting on a young girl. It feels like something special. And I caught myself being like, well, is it special because he loved Ellie? Is it special because he's her dad?

Is he going to answer the question? I know. Who is this man? Is he just like a nice, kind man who's just being a good dude? Like, I don't know. I'm thrown off. I don't know. Well, first of all, I love her barging in while he's in the middle of recording.

Like, she's so excited. She will literally just interrupts him. But as they're talking in her office and he starts talking about Ellie, the look on Hillary's face was so, it was just pure little girl. Tell me where I'm from. I want to belong to something. I want to have come from something. And he says it was one of those great loves.

So it was messy. And I mean, the way I interpreted the look on her face was just, like what the the when somebody tells you something about yourself that means so much it's a confirmation of everything you've ever hoped was true and she just was like I I came from a great love for someone who's so romantic as Peyton yeah she's such a devastating romantic I think yeah I don't think she would ever claim that she is but that's my opinion about her it really made my heart happy to see that yeah and and to see it in that moment and to see it in that moment and to see, it's funny that you say that, that it's the moment where he's talking about how much

passion there was between Ellie and this mystery dad. Because I thought you were going to say when she's laughing, like, you look like you've seen a ghost. And he says, I feel like I have, that's your mom's jacket. You look just like her. And suddenly she looks like this little girl. Yeah, that was good too. And I loved the way he stopped her in her tracks. And you, And you could see the shock, the excitement, and the hope. And to cut to them on the river walk, it's so nice when we get to go out there, just like completely devoid of the emotional parts. But like as a location, I just think it's so beautiful.

We didn't get to do it a ton. And their walk and talk is brimming with that young curiosity. Because she keeps looking at him like, are you my dad? You know? And how did you know my mom? And like, tell me more. And I loved that the way they figured out how to tie it all together was that someone gave him the benefit CD. And so he got to read about what she said about her mom. It was such a special way to tie together the beginning of trick and that album. And, you know, we really released that album. And all of these things, I was just like, God, this storyline is really well done. done. I like when it makes me happy. Like that, too. Yeah.

Just bringing the past back in whenever they can. I wonder if that just came naturally or if they all sort of, somebody did a pass like when the script was done, like just find a way to keep weaving past things in. Yeah. It would be interesting to ask one of the writers one day. Yeah, I really loved that. It was a simple storyline. There wasn't too much to it.

It was just the slow burn build of, what are we going to find out? What are we going to find out? In the end, you're right. He did kind of dodge the question, but still maintained this friendship and love. Yeah, the look on her face then, too. She was like, okay, but seriously, are you my dad? Could you actually just tell me? Yeah.

I loved it. That's good. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls,

became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a massacist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare, and frankly, bullshit.

We kill the ambassador. Just to cover something up, you put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yeah, that's right. Lock her up.

Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And I thought it was really interesting that when we finally get to the end of the episode and she just asks him. Yeah. Him saying, what did he say? Wouldn't that be something? Wouldn't that be something?

Wouldn't that be something? It would be something. That's what I mean. She's looking at it. I'm like, yeah. I'm like, so is it a yes? Is it a no? I need more from you, sir.

But I love it as a cliffhanger. I love him saying he's going to stick around and record. He wants to do a project with her. Yeah, yeah, he's going to stick around. I don't remember where this goes. Me either. No idea. I'm really, really curious how long we get to keep him

and what we're going to find out. I'm sort of afraid that it's not going to be him. I don't think it is. Isn't it Kevin Kielner? Well, Kevin Kielner was her dad. Oh, her dad. Yeah, right, right. Sorry. But I'm really wondering who, I don't know. I don't, I think maybe it is because, I mean, this is Peyton's last season on the show anyway, so I think they sort of have to tie up this storyline. So maybe it is him. I am so curious. I love when we get to be surprised.

Mick Wolf. Mick Wolf. Like Nick. Yeah. And then you go in the completely not sweet direction of parental relationships. Mm-hmm. That was where I was going. Yeah.

There's broken therapy. Okay. Before we even get to Victoria, this is my least favorite kind of therapy. I'm watching this woman just, well, first of all, she seems a little, like, superior, which kind of is irritating to me, but I can get over it. But then she's like, she's basically just, it's the rhetorical, I wish I'd written down one of her quotes, but it was basically like, that's very normal. It doesn't really matter what I believe.

It's what you believe. Yeah. Well, I know what it is. I know what drove you crazy. Okay, well, first of all, again, the tie-in that this was Haley and Nathan's therapist. Oh, right. Why did they make this woman play British? She's not.

And that's why she seems sort of holier than thou, because it's very like, well, you know, what happens to people else? Like, it's so aristocratic and weird. Is it? Is that how it goes? I didn't know. Oh, do you feel sad about your mummy? Like, it's so bizarre. But Brooke is sort of explaining all of these things, and it really does sound Shakespearean. It sounds like a wild, you know, drama. She essentially accuses her mother of being. awes, you know, pulling all the puppet strings and unleashing the flying monkeys and then goes through the sketches and the this and the board meeting and, you know, the whole plot and then realizing how crazy this sounds, because who has a family like this, but she really does.

She says to the therapist, you probably think I'm crazy. And what I do appreciate is the validation she gets because she says, no, I don't. I think we have a lot to talk about. And I was like, it's almost great, but they made it quippy with the, I think we have a lot to talk about, and I hated it. I was like, it's important for Brooke to hear that she's not crazy. It was like a pancake they flipped too soon or something. I thought she said, I thought her response to that was, it doesn't matter what I think. It matters what you think. Isn't that when she said that? Or was it that earlier?

It might have been earlier. I don't know. She did say that at one point. At one point, I was like, oh, so passive, aggressive. I hate that so much. You know, like, I know it only matters what I think, but I'm paying you to tell me if I sound crazy. Yeah. You know what I liked about that, though?

I liked, they did a couple of overlaps in this episode that I thought were really well done because sometimes we overuse the device. Oh, yeah, cutting to the next scene. Yes. And we did two really good ones. I said, well, where should we, you know, Brooke says, where should we start? Like the whole story or since I fired her? And then it cuts to the boys, you fired your mom? Yeah. And it was like, oh, man, we did it really well in this episode. And I noticed two of them. And I really thought, like, oh, okay, the writers are having a good time this season. It's nice. So speaking of the boys, it was interesting to see Nathan. This storyline with Deb is interesting to me. And I guess I get it because he's been through so much with both of his parents that to finally put his trust in his mom and just, you know, she's been in and out of rehab. She's had such a tempestrous relationship with Dan.

She's made some really selfish choices in the past. And she finally seems to be settling into her life in a very real and comfortable way. And now she's doing something erratic, it seems to him again. But Nathan wrestling with his priorities, like, I guess everything getting thrown upside down with Q and not knowing who he can lean on and who he can trust. And yeah, it was a pretty, in my opinion, stupid move for Deb to reveal it at the funeral like that. I mean, truly terrible. We're not perfect.

It's terrible. But I will say, on the one. hand, you go, this is the moment. And on the other hand, you go, that's the most human thing to do for this person that you really care about. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's where I'm going. It's like making, Nathan coming to the realization that his parents aren't perfect, but like his mom's not perfect, but she's still good. Yeah. Like, I feel like that it was an important moment for him to to get to that place where he wasn't just compartmentalizing everything about his parents. It was like something about Q's death just broke open this spot for him to just go, okay, eventually,

you know, by the end, to just go, okay, I have to leave room for error. There just has to be room for error. And it doesn't mean that my mom, it's not black or white. It doesn't mean my mom's a bad person. It's just like, she makes choices I wouldn't make. But it's just interesting to see him wrestle with that. Well, and you know what I wish we were going to get a little bit of, especially because we are acknowledging the complexity of familial relationships here.

We're doing it with Peyton and Mick. We're doing it with Brooke and Victoria. Brooke is finally going to therapy. Thank God. It's like we're digging into the realer stuff on the show. We're not just doing glossy relationship drama all the time. And I know we're not going to get it. it, but what I wish we were going to get to, now that Nathan understands there's real feelings

between these people. Because look, I get the initial, like, my mom is sleeping with my friend, what's happening. Oh, yeah, it's weird. But I wish we could also get to a place for Deb, where we got to understand a little bit of why, where we got to hear a woman say, yeah, I was in an abusive relationship. And now I'm not going to date someone unless I've known them for a while, unless I've gotten to watch their behavior, realize they're a good person, not that they're a narcissist who's trying to, like, mark me. And then, you know, we've talked about this a lot on the show, you know. You and I have experience with narcissists. It changes the way you perceive people and how long you wait to trust people. And how long you wait to trust yourself. Because clearly, like, she's going, I keep picking these people. So something's wrong with me, too. Right. And so it's like starting to see a glimmer of the acknowledgement of I don't want to hurt you and I want to be happy. Yes. I'm like, oh, man, I would love for this to lead to more honest conversations between Nathan and Deb about Deb's experiences as the woman in relationship to Dan. Yeah. And I don't think we're going to get that. And I don't know. Part of me that's like read all the books that we like sent.

back and forth was just like, damn it, I want to get there. Like, we're, there's such an opportunity here. And I just think Barbara does such a beautiful job when she gets to be in those scenes with James. And, and Deb just gets to tell Nathan how she feels. And I want more of it. I do too. And it's also considering all that, it actually makes it a bigger deal that she was willing

to break it off with Antoine. in order to have a relationship with Jamie. Yeah. Because, man, life is complex like that. Like, what are you going to do? Your son gives you an ultimatum. Like, I mean, yeah, you could choose to say, well, you're not the boss of me. I'm going to do what I want and go live your own life.

And that's, you're well within your rights to do that. And he would be wrong, in my opinion. But life isn't always black and white. Again, it's like her going, you know, this relationship is. I have to weigh these options and my grandson and my son are my priority and in spite of the fact that he's putting me in a position that I don't deserve to be in. It is ultimately like my, I want to have that relationship with him and that's the important thing and we'll figure it out later on. But what a sacrifice to go to somebody that's finally making you happy and that you're

in a great relationship and be like, I'm sorry. I just, I can't, I can't do it. Well, and, I mean, not to get, like, so deep in the weeds on the emotional end of it and the, you know, the therapy research, but. You know, I love your research. I love it. Even the fact, when you think about it, when, you know, Deb has known skills for so long, he felt like a safe person for her to, like, get back into her body with, you know, like a trustworthy, non-threatening. This person's not going to be violent with me. I can, like, have a physical experience, you know. Yeah.

And even without going into so much detail, skills expresses that to Nathan. He's like, yeah, it might have started as a sex thing, but it's a whole other thing now. I have feelings for her. And Deb is admitting that she has feelings for him. And I think there's also something profound about a woman who's gotten out of, you know, an abusive relationship, like finding a relationship to her physical and emotional body and well-being again with someone in a safe way. And I don't know.

I kind of love that Haley's the one who gets to call Nathan out on his reaction and be like, hey, guy, you slept with my sister. You, like, you know how we got started. You didn't say it, but could have been like, you slept with, like, every cheerleader in the school. Yep. Come on. Both of my best friends.

Yeah, like literally everyone. And I just love that his response is, like, cool. You're just never going to stop trying to make me a better person. Okay, great. Great. And you're like, no. Because you're kind of being a hypocrite. I got to call you out on it. It's like so sweet. And I think it helps. Jamie's saying, I let you kiss my mom. That line. My favorite line of the episode. Me too. Especially because Nathan's trying to rationalize to a five-year-old, why he's upset. And the five-year-old's like, well, they like each other. And I like them both. So who cares? And he's like, yeah, but that's my mom.

mom. Like an adult is saying this to a child and the child's response is, you kiss my mom. Like he literally just owns him like, okay, dummy. It's so great. It's so great. Out of the mouths of babes. I do love that. I love the fact that he just, man, kids really can have a way of seeing things in the most simple format. And I think we need that sometimes. Nathan clearly needed it here. Well, and not to ping pong around, like, total ADHD brain. No, do it. But it actually really makes me think, Jamie is so clear with Nathan. He's just like, dad, like, you kiss my mom.

He just says the truth. And then you think about Peyton being in front of Mick. And she can't bear to ask him on that walk, are you my dad? So scary. But you see her wanting to. So instead, she takes a deep breath. breath and says, did you know my dad? And then looks at him hoping that because she cracked the door, he'll walk through it.

And isn't it interesting that, like, we layer on all of our experiences and we carry them around with us for our whole lives. And as adults, sometimes we just can't be as clear as we could be when we were five. Man, I wish I could. I really wish I could. It's just so, I don't know, I love the sort of. dichotomy of all of these parental relationships in this episode. Yes, I do too.

Okay, well, let's talk about the other parental relationship because there's so much Brooke here to dive into. She goes to New York, shows up at Victoria's apartment, lays a glock down at the table. How does she even get to New York on the plane with the gun? I got on an airplane in my work outfit. In your work outfit? I have no jacket.

I have flown from North Carolina to New York with no jacket. This was also, good God, this was the season where wardrobe loved up of me in vests. And I have no sunglasses on, but I have two black eyes. How am I walking around New York City? And I don't have a carry-on. I don't have anything. I have a handbag with a gun. How did I get on a plane?

She's Brooke Davis. She was just like, but let me on the plane. It was her private plane. I must have checked a bag and just left it with the doorman or something. But you knew that you were just going to say, like, you didn't think you were staying overnight. So why would you check a bag? But you can't get on a plane with a gun unless you check it. I don't know.

It was, I just was like, I'm going to suspend my own disbelief, but this feels ridiculous. I just wish she had drove. Like, why would it have been so hard for her to just get in the car and drive? I don't know. Maybe you're right. Maybe she chartered a plane. Maybe Brooke has that much money. Not anymore. She gave away her company. Well, she at the end of the episode. Yeah. But I will say all of the ridiculousness of it aside, I loved. Like, just throwing the bag down, putting the gun on the table, and being like, we need to talk. Like, you had to commit to that material so hard. Uh-huh. There's no, there's no half-assing that without it just look. But you pulled it off. I mean, I believed you. It felt.

very like this is what you've brought me to you've brought you have brought me to this place where I'm carrying around a gun because I'm terrified for my life so yeah I want you to see for real what you've done to me yeah and it was interesting I remember I remember wanting to make sure that it would feel honest but it wouldn't feel melodramatic Yeah, that's hard to do. Oh, there's like such an opportunity to be like, you've reduced me to a shell of myself, you know? And it's like, oh, my God. So I had to figure out a way to put that sort of like really tough Brooke energy on it.

So it could be this like spicy tete-a-tete between the two of them, but also have beats. where like the fear could come out and I remember I just remember like really wanting to get it right and being so happy getting into it with Daphne because we just have such good chemistry that it like quickly all of the how do you track the roller coaster of emotion in the sequence homework stuff we do as actors went away and we were just at each other. Yeah. And that felt cool.

What I thought was one of the things was really interesting about that scene is that it is the first time that the roles were reversed and Victoria was on the defense. Every other time that I can remember, Brooke and Victoria interacting, Brooke throws a fit sometimes, but Victoria always is more calm, always more. I don't mean to reduce Brooke. I'm not saying she throws a fit. But, you know, she acts out. Like, she has her moment.

And Victoria just stays above it all. And she's like, I'm in charge. I've got the upper hand. And she just lays down whatever things she thinks she needs. And Brooke was always left sort of in shambles. Like, what just happened? I came in hot. I was right.

I had been wronged. And somehow I'm still the one who's crying and questioning myself. And it was the first time that we got to see Victoria actually be scrambling, trying to figure out how to, how to get through the conversation. Yeah. Well, and so many things were so telling that her first question was, did you go to the police? The first fear is, what about the brand? What about the reputation?

And Brooke gets to throw that back in her face, you know, because it's like, oh, you, the PR spinner, you know, and it really is working, and she's really, mustering up this courage to talk about how she doesn't want to be like her mom. She doesn't want to become this person. She doesn't want any of this. And then Victoria really hammers her with this thing that is so cold and so cruel but freeing. She doesn't say it in a cruel way. That's what's so interesting.

And why Daphne is such a great actress. She could have said it in a way that was mean and like a vendetta. But no, she just was, it was, that's pure narcissism, again, just really believed that she was a victim. And she was thinking that this is going to help explain to you why she treats you so badly. Yeah. But it had the opposite effect, which was really cool. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture.

It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind of two years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her. story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world,

influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a massacist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre?

Bad faith political warfare, and frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a cynic? conspiracy. Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yes, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I liked that the story for Brooke was fuel instead of something that hurt her. Like, it frees her. I remember having this feeling in that scene. I have such sense memory of this one. Like just shaking my head, looking at her, being like, oh, my God, I don't have to carry this anymore. Yeah. That's what I have in my notes. Brooke shedding.

That's what her, yes, she's shedding. Well, and we talked about this a couple weeks ago. whatever's happening in the world all these people are sort of reclaiming their independence and their power and it's been a wild season for a lot of humans um and we talked about the like the aha you know at least it has been for me this year of learning to not be just to carry everybody else's stuff to not be so worried about being a people pleaser to not be so worried about making everybody else happy even if I'm miserable. And, and I don't know, it felt resonant with me in a way now that I was like, oh yeah, that feeling of going, oh, I don't have to carry this

anymore. This isn't about me at all. Yeah. Bye. And it, and it's so important. And I don't think I knew, I remember it feeling so good for the character then, but I don't think I knew how profound it felt in my life yet. Yeah. And it's cool to see it now. I don't know. I really, looking back on it, like the way this whole thing went down. And I like that before Victoria tells her the whole thing about this accidental pregnancy,

and she never wanted to be a mom in the first place. And they had a daughter and not a son and all this stuff that's really dark, that she actually admits her jealousy. She goes, oh, I was a failure as a mother. You got everything you ever wanted, everything I ever wanted. And Brooke gets to know that her mom's just been jealous of her this whole time. Oh. Unreal.

It's heavy, but it's, but it is freeing. It's so freeing. This scene, it's one of my favorite Brooke moments, I think, in this show. Because you were, you know, I know we use this phrase a lot, dropped into your body. But the difference here was, I feel like you really allowed Brooke to not have processed this enough to get haughty with it. That might be too dramatic of a word, but when you feel really proud of yourself for standing

up for yourself and walking out of the room and doing the, you know, your famous stop over the shoulder, give the last line thing, which is always so good. But you did all those things without that sense of, I'm proud of myself for doing this. Because it's like it hadn't even hit yet. She didn't even have time to go, here's what I'm going to do. And I'm laying it down and I'm out of here. It was just pure guttural reaction. Oh, I'm just done.

Oh, I'm just going to go. Yeah. Because the difference is it's not, it's not an. I win. That's it. It's not I win. I'm free. Yes. I'm free. Okay. It's, it's the aha moment. Yeah, she didn't need to win. No. She had already won. It's like the realization of like, oh, I don't, this isn't even, well, this is not even a fight. It's not even a thing. And then the win for her is to say, take the company. I don't want it. That's where she gets to win. That's it. Yeah. But I don't even think it started that way. In the way that I, in the way that

I interpreted that. And maybe you were thinking is anything different when you were doing the scene. But for me, it still felt like, oh, I'm not done shedding. Hold on. This is the last piece I need to unload. Well, because in a way, she realizes, oh, I'm going to cut the last chord. That's it. I'm just going to, I'm going to cut it. I don't want it. And then she gets that last little moment. She gets her win when she says, congrats. Now you got everything you ever wanted. yeah like she had to just let it all go first and then like oh yeah this feels good this is what i should have been doing all this time and it goes to that quote that Lucas says on the basketball court sometimes it's not about winning it's about healing yes so good it ties all together

and that's what it is and that i think maybe that's why the scene feels like such a big deal to me now because that's it when you when you put down all the shit you're carrying because other people told you you were supposed to. Or you put down trying to fix something with a toxic human because they're your family or your spouse or your whatever. And you just go like, wait, what am I doing this for? What am I doing? Is life supposed to be this hard?

I don't think it's supposed to be this hard to look around and say, I'm done now. I'm done doing the work. It's freedom. I have said that for years about, like, I mean, it's out there now when I left the group that I was a part of. And there was something that I, I've, people keep asking me, like, was it so hard to leave? Was it so? And I was like, actually, no, walking away was the easiest part.

The aftermath, dealing with everything is another story. But, like, walking away is the easiest part. Because when you realize exactly what you're talking about and you just like, oh, oh, I don't want to do this anymore. done. I was actually telling somebody the other day joy, you'll love it because we've obviously both been through it. But I was saying that like it started in the spring for me and then like through the spring and summer. Do you remember that Megan the Stallion song, Hot Girl Summer? Yeah. So like the the group chat of like women going through separations and divorces like just kept growing. And then at one point someone renamed it Hot Divorce Summer. And I was just done.

I was like the fact that we have this group chat that is literally giving everybody life and people are trading like recommendations for lawyers, sending each other like quotes from phenomenal writers, we have like a book club going, we're sending each other like really hilarious memes from like TikTok. It just got so great. And I was like, I, in this moment, while we're all processing this and we're going to get feedback from our listeners, I'm like, maybe we need to make that movie. I was just going to say, that's a TV show, wanting me.

Right? Like, that's the rom-com I want to watch is, like, all the women getting free. But it's like hot divorce summer. Yeah. Givorese summer? That's funny. I don't know that at it. Like, okay, by the way, it's total sidebar, but first wives club, like, it was brilliant.

But when I watch it, I was like, this is, they were our age. That was, that was supposed to be all like our age in that movie. It makes no sense. I know. Man, the 90s were crazy. The meme that goes around at Christmas, which now is hitting the internet everywhere, that's like, if you're 36, do you realize that Kevin's mom in home alone is the same age as you? And I was like, wait a minute.

Didn't she have like eight kids? What she did? I could not. It's so wild to me. It's wild. Okay. But the last thing I'm going to say, bringing it all back full circle to this New York jaunt for Brooke. I love the callback to our scene with Jamie when I get in the cab and the guy asks me

where I'm going and I say take me to the airport. I'm going home to my family because Brooke is like, I just wish I had a family like yours and he says, you do because you're my Aunt Brooke. You're my Aunt Brooke. That's it. I'm going back to my family. It really reminds you, you know, all of us that. you get to build it. You really do. And I think, I just loved that. I was like, yeah, that feels really

important. I thought the whole montage at the end was really good for everyone. Yeah, I agree. The notes that I have on the end of this episode, aside from music in big capital letters, because the music is in this episode was, again, Lindsay Wilfington, so excellent. Yeah. is the gestures we make, the rituals that we have. There was something about, like Brooke, getting in the backseat of the taxi. We've seen her do this in the back. We've seen her in the backseat of a limo with Victoria. We've seen her in the back of the taxi and backseat of cars.

There's something about this ritual. I mean, whatever, it's a ritual. You're in a taxi cab. Of course, you're going to be in the back seat. But it's reminiscent of those moments. And then the boys, the basketball players, the patch, the fact that Lucas got them all New Jersey's with the patch, the gesture that they're making of playing without a fifth, and then asking to play without a fifth for the rest

of the season. There's these rituals and gestures that we make in life. And it calls back to Lucas's quote, life is fleeting, our time here is short, and to honor the fall, and we must live our lives well. And I don't know that I have a complete thought on this as much as it was just a deep emotion and an awareness of how important those gestures and rituals are. And I just honor that about our show. I feel like we did a really great job bringing those up and continuing them throughout the seasons. Yeah. Well, and, you know, we talked about this the other day with Robbie, but obviously it's so frustrating to have lost such an impactful character because a bunch of grown-ups, like we're arguing about people's paychecks.

But it really did allow us to open this sort of trapdoor to even more feeling and even more ritual. Yeah. And it created the container. that was, you know, built out of such serious emotion that it sort of required all the characters to process these big serious things. And it really was, I think, to our storylines, it was a gift. Yeah. But it's inspiring, too, the ritual of coming together, the gestures of Quentin's not here to see them do that. It's not, I mean, it's for him, but it's also for them and the gestures in healing.

Oh, that was the last piece. A skill. making the gesture to come even though he's like he didn't do anything wrong but and he knew Nathan was mad at him and he just put himself out there and took the risk yeah um I just really admired that I thought that was such a cool choice I did too another just gesture and ritual like let's play the ritual let's do our dance that we've been doing yeah yeah and he shows up Well, he shows up to fill a void in Nathan's life. And by doing so, remind him that he's going to be there for him no matter what. And the sort of second layer of that is, and I have been for this long. Yeah. You know, for our friendships and all these things we do and have done all these years together. And I loved that, again, sometimes, you know, to make time, they would cut the moments in our scenes. It was just dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, dialogue. And I loved that they didn't do that here. And they let the awkwardness hang in the air. And they let Nathan really look at

skills. We really got to watch James decide whether or not he was going to answer the question. Yeah. And then he said, yeah, you know, I need to work on my left. And it was such a good double entendre. So maybe that's where we start. Oh, I was like, we did it. I love it. Yes, the beautiful tapestry of life weaving together, all the imperfections, and just coming back to family, coming back to your emotional home. So good. You guys. So good. I know what else to say.

I really loved this episode. It was such a nice, pleasant surprise. Mm-hmm. We touched on Nanny Carey being in the house. Yeah, we did. Yeah. All right. She was great.

I love Tori. She's always great. I liked that, you know, she came and talked to Deb on the bench. That was kind of funny. That was wild. Well, and that's how she knew. Like, Deb wouldn't be there. It was so creepy.

Also, in what a weird way that she actually inspired Deb to make the stand up for herself? You know what? It just goes to show you. Like, people can be used in any way, any shape or form. Yeah. Someone's hero is someone else's villain and vice versa. Hey, that's good. That's good.

Okay, listen, from Mary Kate, episode 602, you guys are talking about how it's a friend's job to tell Brooke, you're not okay, or to help her open up. Okay, as women who have grown up together and have a trusting relationship, do you have any tips on how to start the conversation with a friend? Even with that kind of relationship, it can be hard to talk about hard things. That's true, Mary Kate. That is true. Yeah. I don't know. Pick up the phone.

Texting is hard. I mean, I think it can all be hard, but I think the best way, I'm just thinking about it, because 602, you know, I think we're referring to the fact that, you know, Hillary was voicing that she was so frustrated, remember, that Peyton didn't say, like, hey, you're obviously not good. Like, what's going on? I don't think you fell down the stairs, you know? I think if you know someone might not want to talk about something, but you're worried about them, I think sometimes the best way to approach it is I might be off base here. Yeah. But I feel like you're not okay. I'm a little worried about you and I'm here and you can tell me anything. Do you need to talk?

Yeah. Because what's the worst it can happen? Yeah. You could be off base. everything could be fine, and then they just know you're a great friend looking out for them. Or they tell you what's up, or they still aren't comfortable talking, but at least they know that you are there for them and that, you know, it's up to you. Yeah. I think that's good advice.

Well, yeah, and I think what it can do if they're not ready, like you were saying, is it just reminds someone that you see them. Yeah. And sometimes that's what we have to do. Like through strange periods, we just say, like, I see you. I'm around. I'll wait. And sometimes people have to say, yeah, I'm not ready, but I see you too. And life is long, you know?

Like, everything feels so pressing and we want answers so quickly all the time. And we want everyone to have the right thing to say all the time. And we want to know everybody's business and everything is insane. And maybe that's because social media refreshes every time we pull our thumb down our phone screen. So we think- It's training our brains. You know, we just think we're supposed to have more, more, more, all the time, all the time. Sometimes you just have to give people a minute. But I think a little reach out to say, like, I'm here if is a nice way to start.

Yeah. And if it's slow, let it be slow. Yeah, just, you know, yeah, I agree. Just being there often makes such a huge difference. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny you say life is long. It's because even though it does off, I always feel like, man, life is so short. And it is, you know, the quarter of the episode, life is fleeting. When I landed in Nashville, the day that I moved to Nashville, me and Maria got on the plane. We landed here. I'm standing in the hallway of the airport. And I hear somebody talking to me and I feel a hand on my shoulder. I turn around. It's Gavin de Groff. were in the airport and I was like what in the world are you doing here he was like well I mean I live here it's not that crazy I was like yeah I know but like today of all days yeah the fact that

I'm going somewhere with this so bear with me but the fact that he and I told him this I said the the fact that you were there I know that you're just in the airport doing your thing but for me coming back to coming to a place where it represents the start of something that I never got to finish because of all these complications in my life when I you know coming to Nashville to work on music and sing and try and do something again later in life to feel like am I even going to be able to do this and it just felt like a miracle to me like a sign like the fact that you from one tree hill were coming back into the future to tell me that it's all okay and he said to me the road is long and that was it it was like i mean he said other things but like that was the

that was the takeaway that yeah life is short but the road is long yeah and yeah holding on to those friendships and like you're saying and just letting letting people know that you're there for them and yeah it's hard to talk about hard things with everybody everybody has it you get a pit in your stomach i hate that i have to say this out loud it's scary i don't like being vulnerable but what's the alternative what are you going to do yeah we have to spin a wheel and we have to we have to we have to spin a wheel and we have to do an honorable mention yeah i mean honorable mention like does jackson not get the honorable mention for that line it's so good a hundred percent it was so good it was so good it may look different but native culture is very alive my name is

Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aimed to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con

or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi, Nine times out of ten, they called me a massacist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why?

Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare, and frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a situation? sinister conspiracy. Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last

20 years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yeah, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. all right let's spin a wheel oh boy the most likely to get a tattoo they regret i mean haley did that didn't she i don't know she sure did she got her a little tramp stamp i feel like that tracks i mean i feel like i don't know haley and lucas both got pretty bad tattoos in high school maybe maybe that's really the lesson is just don't get tattoos in high school. I think that's a good lesson, you know?

I think that's a really good lesson. I like all the tattoos I've gotten as an adult. Like the first two, from like 23 and 25, I'm still like, meh, they're fine. I can do without them. But, yeah, I just feel like, wait until you know yourself better. Nobody's reckless. Like, no one to me is reckless enough that they would wake up with a tattoo or get something that they regret. I don't know.

I can't think of anybody. Well, no. I mean, Hillary loves all her tattoos. I know Dineal loves all her tattoos. Yeah. I like mine. I was even thinking of Dineal because when at Hillary's wedding, she had the tattoo artist and it was like one in the morning. And Daniel's like, I'm going to get mischief on my calf.

And I was like, I did stop her. and looked at her in the eyes. And I was like, are you ready to do this? Do you want a word on the back of your calf? Are you sure? She's like, yes. And she loves it. So great.

Loves it. I know. I think it's pretty great. Yeah, I don't know. Well, I mean, actually, didn't Chad get a tattoo that they had to cover up because I don't know if he regretted it or not, but they did have to. No, because it was like it was in some other language and then it ended up not being. on his shoulder.

But that's where we put, that's where we put Lucas's tattoo. Yes, because. Wait, did it mean like, did he thought it means something? And then it actually meant like fork or like silverware. No, no, no. I think that's in the show.

But didn't he have, oh, right, right, right. He had a tattoo and then had to cover it with another tattoo. Oh. And that's why we had to put one over it. Isn't that? Is that right? Yeah, that sounds about right.

So I think, yeah, in real life. Okay. I mean, look, I don't know if he would do that today, but he certainly didn't have a Haley around to pause him and say, are you sure? Are you sure? Oh, man. I did just find this quote and I would love to read it. It's so good. Okay. To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give it to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it. carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries, avoid all entanglements, lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken. It will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable. I love that. And so in the spirit of exactly what Sophia you were just saying about being there

for a friend and letting them know it's yeah to love is to be vulnerable so it is the most loving thing that you can do to just be vulnerable if you know if you can trust the person to handle that so hopefully you know you've you out there marry kate um have some really great friends in your life that you can experience that with yeah just give it a shot all right friends next week we will be on season six episode five you have dug your own grave now live in it oh boy sounds harsh wow that was great episode i had a nice night thanks i loved it thanks see you later friends hey thanks for listening don't forget to leave us a review you can also follow us on instagram at drama queens o t hush or email us at drama queens at iHeartRadio dot com see you next time we're all about the

high school drama girl drama girl all about them high school queens we'll take you for a ride and our comic girl cheering for the right team drama queens drama queens smart girl rough girl fashion but you'll tough girl you could sit with us girl drama queen drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens it may look different but native culture is alive my name is nicole garcia and on burn sage burn bridges we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist. rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. From prologue projects and Pushkin Industries, this is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an IHeart podcast.