Drama Queens - Take 2! with Paul Johansson • EP619

Episode Date: May 6, 2024

Paul Johansson directed this episode, so it’s fitting that he returns to dissect it. The Queens talk about his process and how it affected the show. They share what made this episode special in their eyes and Paul explains what made him run into the bathroom and cry! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. Smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl.

Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Guys, hello, everyone. You're all joining us in the middle of our conversation because every time we get together, we can't stop gabbing. But we're talking about season six, episode 19, letting go, air date March 30th, 2009. Paul, would you be so kind as to read in the chat?

There is a synopsis of this episode, perhaps? Oh, my gosh, I'm being invited. Yeah, with your episode. Guys, Paul is here because he directed this episode, beautifully, and we're here to talk with him about it in with you and all the things. Well, that is so sweet. I do have the synopsis right in front of me.

And the director's name is spelled correctly, which is fantastic. You know how many times I do a gig and they give me an E or an extra S or something. Sure. You've earned all those letters, babe. Take them. The synopsis. Julien makes Brooke a startling offer. We know who Julian is.

What a wonderful actor. By the way, I did watch that on the, you know, they do on YouTube a kind of like, you know, the highlights of the season, you know, when you wanted like a three minute thing. Yeah. A highlights of that episode. And, you know, he's so good looking.

It's like, I really hate him. I don't know. Anybody who comes on the show that's that good looking, I just was just. Oh, good looking. Isn't he? Yes. I mean, yes.

Absolutely. Of course. Of course. And it was a really fun episode. But Lucas brings Nathan Scott and Jamie to an important. place from his past and we also see him shooting baskets and that great Mustang that they had in the back there that fast back right i mean i'm sure geoffrey loves fastbacks that's one of my favorite cars right whole fucking garage paul it's just cars that he does and he always gets stick

shift cars that i can't drive because i'm a nerd girl and i'm like you want to learn i'm fine that's hilarious um that's a good tactic for the future for you yeah smart Peyton prepares for the future Well, Payton prepares Sam and Jack take a stand against the principal Who fired Haley Awkward storyline I thought it was so fun

Isn't that an awkward storyline? Yeah. So imposed. I mean, I understand what they're trying to go for But it was very confusing From a directing point of view To help tell that story Because it felt shoved in

And it felt like This is somebody else's version of what school's like. It's not what kids experience. Right? Yeah, there was a lot that was forced about that. Okay,

we'll get into that. I'm not trying to cut down. I mean, look, you did 10 years of a series. It's not everything is going to be genius, right? We like to giggle about the left turns that Tree Hill takes from time. Yeah.

What a polite way of telling you. By the way, I have so many like things. I mean, listen, I almost like, I didn't know how to read because I thought when I read the episode where the dog ate my heart, which is the episode

before this, right? We just missed it. Yeah, we just had it happen. Okay, well, I thought it was a joke. And I called Joe, I think Joe DeVole and laughed and said, you guys are hilarious. He said the real script, I got to study for tomorrow. And he was like, yeah, no, we did. And I was like,

I mean, I really, I like to prepare. He's like, we did. Because he was directed in that episode, right? Yeah, yeah. Oh, Paul. He did. That's right. We could talk about that one, too, because I missed last week. So any intel you want to give us on that mess.

Yes. Please. Then let's quickly, okay, I'll finish this sentence. I want to ask you a question. Antoine takes Marvin on a road trip to get his mind up, Millie. Happy to see those two have a story that builds together, aside from like the main six,

because I think they're great characters, and they deserve that time on the screen. I thought I was happy about that one. I love directing those two together. They're good chemistry. But did you, I hear often, and I read often, and I shouldn't do this because I'm sensing. But when I read online, sometimes I just want to go to the bathroom and shut the door and cry.

Because people are very mean, right? Who mean to us? Never. I think a lot of times people don't consider that we actually read stuff they write about us. And we do because we're curious. Like, what did you think? And I go, well, I think you could have, like, eaten a few more salads. So, you know, I'm like, you're right, but don't say it.

Don't say it, moral. Internet etiquette. don't be a dick oh yeah that's i didn't read that when i got on the internet it doesn't pop no that pop up should be there but this is an infamous episode for you it is because a lot of people ask me if i feel that the show jumped the shark with the heart because it's cartoonish in a way it's not a realistic way that the heart's going to come in in a in a in a in a you know In a lunchbox? In a lunchbox marked, you know, eat candy first.

Oh, my God. And then a dog's just happening and be in an ER room and run over and have a nice heart snack. It felt like a lot of things had to be wrong for that world to work. Yeah. Yeah. But it was cute and it's talkable. And it's, you know, it's talkable.

You know, right? That's a great way to put it. Oh, yeah. Everybody was talking about it. That was a very water cooler moment. but wasn't that was right about the time we had gone through a year or two of what was the show that made fun of us all the time talk soup oh yeah who made fun of us all the time and at first we weren't in on the joke they were just strictly making fun of us and yeah this felt a hundred percent like bait this was this was us saying like

john oliver did a whole segment on it did you see that john oliver oh wait you mean um yeah wait John Oliver did I thought it was the other guy Joel McHale no it's it's you know John Oliver from the yeah yeah Stuart show right yeah John Oliver started on John Stewart show oh oh that's so funny I feel like you need to have a secondary real that is just people reacting to the things that you've done as Dan Scott because to have that much of an impact on pulp culture no like all the dance cuts to me lines are the big ones they got attention yeah yeah listen, you're dastardly. You made the headlines.

That's why I brought my own audience to the, to the podcast. Yeah, you got Jim Jones looking over your shoulder there. There's the quarter of it back there. God. So, okay, so how do you go from having to commit to something so bonkers in the last episode and turn in some very heartfelt, you know, earnest performances, as you're saying goodbye to everybody? Yeah.

To then directing this one. It's very little prep time for you, given how much. much your workload was in the last episode you guys all shared the same burden i did it wasn't unique unto me i know you guys have had to do the same thing so um i'm probably approached it the same way you did which is i never i take my work seriously but i don't take myself seriously does that i think giving yourself some humility and going okay um i did i made a big mistake and i'll actually i've never talked about this before i'll tell you one thing i did a series where The first series I was ever, the co-star, the star, was with Elizabeth Grayson on a series,

a spin-up series of The Highlander called The Raven. And I had been fortunate enough that they decided to make it her, and I was originally supposed to be just her series. And then they brought me in because they wanted a nice sort of like. A handsome boy. Moment, right, yeah, a thing. And she was an immortal and I was a cop. And I made the mistake of going to, I did a lot of research.

drove around with like detectives and I did some cop research and I went to Toronto Police Department Detective Union and did all the stuff and I was you know living in LA but I got up there started the series and I was like I'm going to make this the most important acting job of my life and I'm going to show everybody to who I whatever and I got ahead of my skis a little bit because on the first episode they had a body falling on the top roof and landing on a car and denting the roof and I was this arrogant young actor of thinking, I'm going to make this

an Emmy Award in a show. And it was misguided in a positive way, but poorly executed because I was young and immature. I didn't understand the nature of the business and many things. And I had to go up to it to them and apologize too, because I really

had to come to Jesus moment on that. I said, that doesn't look like a kind of car their body would hit. As if I'm an expert on what cars look like when bodies hit them from Wow. I went, look, that's a tiny dent, man. That body would have gone right through.

And the director goes, yeah, but, you know, maybe not. And I was kind of like, well, I can't be in the scene if that cardisan would properly damage. Oh, no. And the director goes, okay, then you're not in the scene. Oh. And I went, what? And I was too arrogant to go, well, wait a minute. Don't cut me out of the scene.

Wow. So he cut me out of the scene. And I was one of the stars of the show. and I walked to my trailer like, oh, angry and, you know, I'm righteous about this. And I sat on my trailer and it seeped in very quickly like, hey, dummy, you know, you're not bigger than the show. You're not bigger than anybody. Your ideas are just ideas and everybody has a right to ideas.

Yours can be wrong. And I sat there and I kind of went back when I told him to me, going to say, hey, look, I might have misspoke and whatever I go. It was okay. Let's go back to work. And he was super cool about it. Like he knew how to handle a young actor. Wow.

And so I wish that, you know, I hadn't done it, but I really needed the lesson. Yeah. Yeah, especially in television, because everything moves so fast. There's just, it's not the same amount of time when you're on a film and you can go and you have days to rehearse and you've all this time with actors. You just have the script ahead of time for months. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So TV comes in and on episodes like these, even when you're working, you just have to take the two weeks to prep.

I would say that probably one of the biggest benefits for any of us. as actors jumping in to direct is that the show was sort of running itself at that point in so many ways. Paul, did that feel like, did it make it more, like present more challenges? Did it make it more interesting? The fact that it was, were you able to focus on other things as a director instead of trying to create a whole new environment and all that? You know what I mean? Yeah, for when you jumped in on episodes, because like there was so much about it that was kind of running itself. So I feel like it gave you an opportunity to do new things, try new things.

I mean, what did you enjoy about that? Well, my mindset for directing One Tree Hill, and I think you and I've had, what, a thousand conversations about, you know, this. So it's a very nice, it's almost like a softball question because you probably know my answers. But the audience doesn't. Oh, I forget. There's people listening. There's people listening.

Who is doing this all the time about us. I just really want to know. I just love the Hillary's wallpaper, and I can't get over it as I speak. Slythering over here. It's great. It's this. My goal wasn't to try to influence the creators of the show, the writers that, you know, anybody else in that sphere. When I got to the set, my goal was to encourage the actors to leave their complacency after playing the role like I had many times.

I walk into a scene, I go, okay, it's the same kind of dialogue I said last episode, but you know what, let me try and make it fresh, let me find some nuance. It was to encourage them to challenge themselves, and I remember many instances with everybody, was to say, yeah, we've seen that. What else do you got? Like, what is new in this? How do we challenge ourselves to make this a different experience so that we can light that fire again?

Because I want the actors to come in and be inspired by, well, not me particularly, but by the freedom to know that I'll let you try something you didn't try before because I want to see it too because I'm a fan and that was the goal was to push those buttons so that when we would get when I get phone calls from like the network or from even the creator sometimes was like oh that was a great performance you got out of somebody I said that was them they just need permission to go there that's nice oh well you can tell there's certain scenes in this episode that had the Paul hallmark on them especially like when skills was waking mouth up and you just let the camera live on mouth after skills left the room and watched him

like just like fuddle with the pillows and try to get back to sleep you let actors rest or linger in a moment longer than other directors would just to see like what are they going to do acting class remember when we were all in acting classes hillary i did you where did you I studied with June Stein, who was a professor at Columbia. Oh, wow. She was one of the original actors in, what is it, the Miss Firecracker pageant. She was like Pals with John Tetero and all them. And she did my scene study class and put me through the ringer.

What was her method? What was her thing? What was her thing she owned to? She really was about, like, choices and being able to give as many choices as possible so that our directors or our editors had, things to play with. And so for me, I really was happy that before I went into one tree hill, there was an adult in my life that was telling me, cool, you got choice A, which choice B and choice C, and then also have a choice D, just ready to go in case somebody asks for it. And that,

as, you know, how old was I, 18, 19 when I was working with her? That was a really simple way for me to understand what I needed to bring to the table when I hit a set. Do you remember them? Did you see the Bradley Cooper interview on the roundtable when he was nominated? No. Maestro. He referenced Vince Vaughn on wedding crashers. And he said, the best lesson I ever learned in acting was watching Vince Vaughan on Wedding Crashers, when Bradley Cooper only had a very tiny role, if you remember.

And he said, Vince Vaughn would go take after take and everything was completely different than the last take. And he was willing to fail, like even miserably fail in front of the crew and cast, didn't care, just wanted to keep trying things. And he said, that does that never had. That kind of reminds me of what you were just explaining. Well, and it might, you know, my acting partner in that class is now a really successful, you know, executive, executive producer and showrunner. He did Grace, what is it, Grace Jones?

No, he did, what is it? What just came out? Daisy Jones in the six, Don Hillary. Oh, yeah. He did shrinking. Like, James Ponswell is a brilliant director, but he was a brilliant actor before he was a director. and we used to just like try shit all the time. And so it was really fun to come up with someone like that

and then see the things that they're making now that are all choices. It's just character-driven choices. Yeah, and we all felt the permission to do that from you. I know. When did you study, Joy? I'd studied on Guiding Light. I mean, that was, you know what I mean?

Like, I just did high school at theater and I showed up on, I got pilots and stuff since I was 14, 16. I was doing things and lots of Broadway training in small theater classes around New York and stuff, but nothing substantial or of note or name. I was just picking up jobs wherever I could and learning along the way. Set education is so important. It is. By the way, most colleges won't let you work. We talked with Michaela McManus about that.

Once you get into NYU or you get into somebody with an esteemed acting program, They don't let you audition for outside things until you graduate because they want you to complete the program. It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornales, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history.

On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep tradition. alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you have that experience, Paul, when you were training? Or did you even have acting training? Because you were basketball and then remind me what happened. God just touched me with talent Brilliant

Everywhere you go Just shedding gold As he walks down the street He gave me three trophies He said Looks brains With talent And I'm ooh

Nah I can only pick one I like it Boli it was so easy Where did you learn that Where did you learn All the thing about options And being able to

As a director Give that permission to actors How did you know about that? I mean, I have to say that I think a lot of us don't give enough credit to our environment growing up as children. You know, I grew up with a father who was a, you know, an alcoholic, a very difficult man who found God late in his life and converted to a very dogmatic religion. And, you know, but he was tough. He was a tough man. He was in the NHL, one of Stanley Cup.

My mom was an artist who, you know, who was unsatisfied. So that sort of like longing for something more than we are was kind of built into me. And so I think when I started playing basketball, it was kind of a way to get away from, you know, this very kind of normality of my life. And I just longed for things. And I think when I got into acting, you know, I got hired very quickly when I moved to Hollywood because I was a basketball player with the Canadian national team. And I came to America and I want to try at the NBA and some other pro leagues. and I started my getting commercials like I did 20 commercials in one year

you know back when they used to pay and Spock Lee hired me to do a commercial with him and Magic Johnson I did a commercial with him and Tim Hardaway and I started in Kentucky Fried Chicken and then the Diet Coke and I started doing all these commercials and I was like oh this shit's easy man I just got to and then I realized oh um there's no acting in this it's just all kind of like

being a basketball guy it's modeling sometimes it was modeling in some ways Yeah, it was like in the description what they were looking for. But then I got humbled very quickly. I've told the space pops prop story. I studied with Daryl Hickman, who was, whose brother was Dobie Gillis in the series. And Daryl was a very intense guy. And then I studied with Stephen.

Gosh, I'm embarrassed about these names. But when I really started to learn the disciplines when I joined a repertory Shakespeare company and did several seasons with them and got the discipline. And it's when I learned how to smoke because the old director took me aside and goes, stay away from the catering table, have one of these. And I was like, oh, yeah. And he goes, you won't be hungry and it's good for you. Oh, my God.

That's a horrible advice for a kid. This is like 1925 or whatever was. And so I started smoking, you know, because of theater. We all smoked in theater because we're artists. That's part of the uniform. Yeah. You weren't allowed to do and doing, you know, Steve, oh, yeah, Stephen Book was my acting coach. And we weren't allowed to act.

We weren't allowed to take jobs. Carla Cuchina was in that class and Moira, Moira, Chirney was in that class. Oh, wow. She's great. There's a lot of great actors came out of that class I studied with there. And then I went to New York. And, um, there was a. very, very interesting acting coach there that's kind of famous who Kevin Klein uses. And I worked

with him for a while and he was tough. He was very much like everything that you're doing is because you're trying to do the writer's job for them. Don't do that. Don't do the writer's job. They have their job. You have your job. They give you the words. Your job is to know the words and do everything against them you can because the work is going to do so much of the work that everything underneath that is going to be what's called layered life and give them context. So when you say I shot scenes and I leave the camera on,

it's because of this thing that you guys know called, you know, that private moment. And we learn more about a character through private moments when they're alone and nobody's watching than we do when they're in a conversation with somebody. Yes. I love that. And that's what Hillary's talking about.

You leave the camera for the actor to just have a moment. instead of cutting away, you leave that in the edit. And we learn so much more about where our character's coming from. It's lovely. But even if you cut it, right? I always felt like I could learn something that I could take into the next take. Yeah, you still carry it with you in your body. Right.

So like if the scene ends on mouth, putting those pillows over his head and just like resisting what is being offered to him, you know, you yell cut. And then two seconds later, you go into the next take and he's still got that energy in his body of resistance that you let him have. And it reads in this. I like, you know, Hayden is one to have lots of quiet moments. And so I appreciate that we got to just settle into those because our show was so montagey and fast pace and there's eight million characters.

So to let people have that space is rare. Yeah. Well, we have to also give credit to the post-production team too because at the end of the day, they can veto our cuts and they can decide. And if they see that there's value there, you know, we, you know, I always say that, you know, we have to really, in this medium particularly, we have to give so much credit to post-production and people don't understand how great, we hand them all these ingredients. And we go, here you go, good luck. Let us know what turns out. Yeah. Yeah. And we do a terrific job, you know. Well, you did a terrific job in this episode. I really, actually really enjoyed this episode. There were a lot of pieces coming together. You know, the last one that we had, it felt like there were a lot of new open. doors, a lot of endings and open doors beginnings were available now and things were starting to progress in a lot of these storylines. I loved your use of long lenses. There were so many long lens shots in this episode that were really beautiful. The lighting was amazing. And I know

you were working with Pete, right? Pete Kowalski was on this. I had a question about when you are working in a television format like this where the schedule is really fast. When you set up scenes, are you walking into a set paying attention to where the lighting is, where the things in the sets are, and then you ask the actors to be in that area so you can set your shots up in those places? Do you approach things where it's just a free-for-all and it's totally up to the lighting guys to set things up where the actors go, which sometimes can be a challenge on a tight schedule like we had? How do you approach that where you can still be free and artistic, but also keep within the time frame? Oh, what a terrific question because anybody who wants to get in in this industry has to struggle with this. Because when you walk your sets before your actors are there, and we all do that. We walk them with our with our tech crew, right? Remember those walk? So I was thinking this.

I was thinking this. And the deep goes, yeah, that's too flat of a background. You want to do this with this. And, you know, we can't put lights there because we'll have put kinos over here and they won't fit because you're going to, am I going, oh, okay. So what I needed to do was, right? And then the actors would walk in and they'd be like, I don't want to be over there. why am I over there? I should be on this side of the room.

Actors like me. Well, you would do that. There's no other actor on the show, except maybe me. But you would walk in and I'd go, so I had this idea that you're making popcorn and you come over here and you go, does it have me popcorn? I don't like popcorn. What if I have, what am I making the jury? Do you believe?

Why is she making popcorn? If she doesn't have time to eat it, I don't have time to eat popcorn, why would I be making it? If I don't have time to eat it, that doesn't make any sense. Well, I remember, I don't remember exactly the team this one. There was a scene in the kitchen one time in the big house where you were, I was saying, well, what if you're trying to find something you can't find it? I don't remember. I'd love to find this episode.

And you're like, oh, I love that idea. And you took it so far that every cabinet in the kitchen was wide open and everything was everywhere. You're just looking. And we didn't even know what you were looking for because it didn't matter. But that was your scene. I remember this. I don't know what episode that said, I've got to find it.

It's just like, oh, boy, last time I'm ever giving her an idea with an open end to it. Props is freaking out. That's what I was going to say. We have to pull all those cabins now. Where are the plates who lives close with plates? Come over with your plates. Yeah. But by the way, that's when you shine because it's, you're lost in that.

I do. It's fun. But it is, that was a hard learning curve for me because of the time frame. And I was young and stubborn and couldn't hear when people were like, Joy, we literally do not have time for this idea. It's super fun, but we don't have time. I couldn't hear it. I had a really hard time with that.

And that's youth is wasted on the young. But, you know, how do you, you were older than us, you were, you know, for more season? Wait a minute. How do you approach that? You'd never know. Yeah, I was born when T-Ds were circular. Oh, my God. I've been listening to 60s on 6 with my kids and they're like, this music's so old.

I'm like, this is when dad was born. And the kids are like, what? The 60s were a time. You can also stay young, though, through keeping curious, I think. That's, I think that's the secret to stay, you know. But to answer the question, because it is a good question, when I walk a set, when I was going to finish was, I look for never shooting flat against walls. I always look for if I can shoot through a doorway into a room and then see a window or another doorway into something else,

then I can get, I get what I call like a really interesting layered dynamic for lighting. So I don't shoot flat. I always go, I never walk in a room and look at the wall. If you do that, I don't know why you bother shooting on a set, just shoot on a wall. I like to find as many different layers so that I can have an actor come in foreground and background and have them pass. But I love passing off. When you were talking about economy of shooting and how do you shoot so fast, even in indie films,

which I'm more doing involved now, it's, by the way, what a great English sentence. It's more doing involved now. I got you. I knew what you were saying. we followed you all the way down that sentence more involved in doing now it's the French where invert the verbs

the idea is to is to sometimes I think pass off have an actor start the scene coming in and let's say they pass the sofa somebody sitting there and as the dialogue hits you want to be able to just react to that person and then if the person could go behind them again then I don't have to go into all these

separate shots it's kind of I know, sleaker, more fun to have the audience because they'll go with you. Audiences will go and take them on a trip. Yeah, to feel like

they're there in the room rather than they have to, they get to just face to face to face to face to face. I just would rather just find something creative, especially if the scene has any length to it. I mean, a short little scene like that, oh, fine.

Put it on some sticks and get coverage and get out of there. But like the airport scene, what you just did with, what you did in this episode with Julian and Brooke. In the end, that airport, the long lens, the way they crossed each other, the way he stood up and people were passing. Also

wonderful use of extras, the background actors, I feel like, are so often just placed to walk awkwardly, and I love that everybody was moving around, and it felt so natural. If I remember correctly, I remember we had to, I remember that I was up against

a little, I remember who it was. There was somebody on the set that was saying, you know, that the network prefers, you know, those kind of shots that are more framing in the face and focused around. But I said, well, look, you know, and I just had worked with my friend Nick on a movie where he, I think it was my sister's keeper. And he used Deacons on that, I think. Roger Deacons is the greatest DP alive right now. He even has a documentary out of him.

I just like that you did it in a crowd because it made it mortifying. Had you just been framed on Austin's face? Blade Runner, 2000, 1917, Empire of Light, Sicario, The Assassination, Barton Fink, no country for old men. Great. He's brilliant. Okay. So he uses long lenses in interiors in a way where he puts the cameras far, not necessarily.

He could take it outside of a window, but he'll put a 200 zoom lens on a camera. And what happens is if you're sharp and focused, everything around you looks almost like a twink. clean world, like a beautiful little thing. And I didn't quite go to that for. I might have used 100 Zoom or something like that. But you did that on the river court. Yeah. Yeah, I did it on the river court too.

As much as I could, I tried to use long lenses. And then really, what it does is it brings the actor and focus. But it gets almost to sort of like a surreal world around them, which is more glittery with the light clicking off of the river and things like that. It's just pretty, you know. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional.

It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for the kind of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television. Vision History. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. I want to know, Paul, with a series that you're on, right? It's one thing when you go in and you are a guest director that's just cruising into somebody else's universe, and you don't really have context for where the characters have been for the last few years. But with a show that you're on and you know these characters really well, and you know what Brooke's been through and what Lucas has been through and all of that, I can never direct because I have opinions.

Like I don't like Julian. I think Julian's the worst boy ever. I think ultimatums are horrendous, not into it. Yeah, I was not, sidebar was not into this like random. Hey, I'm leaving in like 24 hours. Kid, I get on a plane for me. It's forever.

What? Yeah. Bye. It reads of narcissism. My life is so important that yours is invaluable. Come with me. The misogyny. Sure. How do you keep your opinion out of it? Because I'm thinking, like, if I had to, you made Julian look so lovely in this airport scene that you guys are talking about. And all I could think is like, I'd fuck him up.

I'd make him look real dumb in this airport scene. Because how dare he put all this pressure on this poor girl? Yeah, but instead, it was so romantic. Instead, you made it nice. You made it pretty and so sad. I couldn't keep my opinion out of it. You remember broadcast news? Oh, yes.

Like one of the greatest movies ever made. I'm all right. Holly Hunter. Holly Hunter's scene with William Hurd at the airport where he gets the tickets. And he says, come with me, come with me, come with me. And she's like, okay, I'll be there. And then she finds out he cheated. He lied.

Not an sexual, but he cheated because he falsified a news report, which showed he had no integrity. And she couldn't go through with it. So he took the airport in her like pajamas with no luggage and goes, yeah, no. I'm not going. You know, you have fun. And he's like, you can't, like, you can't just forgive me for that one thing. She goes, no, because it's like basically saying, no, because that's who you are. And I can't be with who you are.

You can't unsee it. It's such a, kind of in my mind when I was shooting that, I was thinking of like the broadcast news moment. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I love my life so much. And you go have yours or whatever it is. So you weren't worried about Julian and how unbelievable the situation was that he was giving her this crazy ultimatum. and she's running around. Like, I've known him for a month.

I didn't feel that was my, my, wasn't, that would be out of my lane because I'm not going to be able to change the writers. Yeah. Ideas. And I have to service the, you guys. Yeah. If, let's just say if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, I would have immediately said, I love your thoughts.

Can we bring the writers in? Because I can't overrule a, a, a, a, a story that's been in. the works for weeks and they've passed through the network through the producers through the showrunner through everybody else and then me to go yeah I'm not cool with that I would have gone I'll tell you what if you have an opposite I will support you let's go together let's go talk and say hey you know what this is how she should take this here and if she just said let's do a take where I just go you know basically uh-uh uh you know I would have gone yes do that take I'll shoot it I'll shoot whatever they just want to shoot we'll also get our job done too at the same

time. Sure. Did they offer you any explanation as to why Julian had to go back? The guy with very few strings attached. Yeah, the stakes were so imaginary. Yeah, I couldn't understand what the urgency was. And it felt like it was somebody, I don't know. I mean, you know, these, there's some genius in our show.

In moments, there's some pure genius. And then with everything in life, there's some things that don't, make as much sense we spoke about one earlier in this episode of this podcast um but again i think you kind of have to if you have moral objections you got to speak them up if you have story objections i think those conversations have to happen long before you get to the set yeah when we didn't get to do read-throughs because it was so bang bang bang bang bang bang yeah we did the first two seasons didn't we the first season the first season what we but we would do like it was the first episode. But it wasn't a regular occurrence. 22 episodes. How are you going to find time? We could barely

get everybody in the same room to shoot on some days. Didn't we have some seasons where we had 26 episodes or something? Oh my God. I don't remember that's a whole blur. We did. Right. Yeah. Well, so for, you know, for these storylines and servicing these storylines, we've been in this boat for six years at this point. Brooke is finally like maybe going to tell someone she loves him he has said goodbye to her 37 times like they've said goodbye so many times and you're like okay so good at playing like the of how her emotions can kind of just suck you in and make you care for her I think she was exceptional in this scene she made me buy it every time I thought she was going to say it She's finally going to say it.

She's finally going to say it. And then she just, it hurts so bad to see it well up in her throat. And her just shove it back down. Like, never mind. I'll keep it to myself. Did they bring him back? They brought that character back, Julian, right? Oh, yeah.

Didn't I try to kill him a couple times? They're going to drown him in the ocean one time. And the hammerhead sharks off the coast of East Carolina. They ended up getting married, Paul. Yes. That was good. That's her. her end game. But what's, these are the things that confuse me so much about our show that we shot

22 episodes. They had a board a mile long in that writer's room. How could they not map out a realistic timeline for stakes for these two characters so that you actually felt like you were invested in not, he's here for four weeks. And then all of a sudden, Brooke's heart is breaking in half because a guy she's known a month gives her three plane tickets and says you and your new adopted kid, come live with me in L.A., and she's not like, that's super sweet. Thank you. But maybe we can talk on the phone a little bit more before I move my whole life out. Like, why did they not take the time? We had 22 episodes. Okay, I'm done. No, no, but remember this is Hollywood is a business and that contracts with actors, they don't know if they're going to pick them up until they see how the

audience reaction. They don't know. Okay, fair. They don't know what's going on until they go, oh, look at the feedback we're getting for this storyline. We should read, we do boot this. There's a lot involved. With the movie that Julian is doing being shit-canned, like the movie's done, what's he rushing back to? Like, he's out of a job. What's he doing? And his dad doesn't even like working with him, right?

His dad lost his job too. Oh, that's right. That's right. Everybody's lost their job. And he's like, well, really got to uproot you and your little kid here. Wouldn't it be great if we were privileged to the conversations that the never, We love it. We're having with our writing team so that we could understand how they got to certain conclusions.

We weren't involved in those and we have no idea. But it would be. And also, there's always that factor of was it just such a different time 15, 20 years ago that the default was the woman would follow the man? Has it been that long that it was just the assumption at that point? Because now we're all like, she probably makes more money than he does. you know like what are we doing here i think they could have done something like i've got an offer i'm going to go shoot a movie in morocco and they're paying us so much money and i want to bring you and give sam an experience of being overseas you can design overseas like raise the stakes

to something that's not just i got to go back to l.a and try and get another job just great fanfiction for everybody we want to hear the conversations that we're never had the thought that i had in my whole head was like no fucking wonder was still thinking about Lucas the whole time she was dating like no wonder Peyton was like okay we're good

go to Sundance bye we're done so how did they end up if you could right now they got married I know but now where are they what is what is Peyton and what is Lucas doing right now 10 years after those times

you and every fan they always ask us this question at conventions and stuff Paul yes so good Peyton's doing that thing where she's in like deep therapy at this point because when you're little, you don't know how screwed up you are until you have kids and you're like, wait a second, I don't want to hit this kid. I don't want to scream at this kid.

What happened to me? Yeah, she's just like deep. And is Lucas like Stephen King now or what's going on? Like, I don't know. I bet he's still strong. Like I love how like strong Chad is right now and all the thirst trap pictures he posts on Instagram. I'm like, where was this? What? What the hell? Have you seen his new show? I haven't watched it yet. No. What's his show?

Sullivan's. Yeah, Sullivan's Crossing. Crossing, yeah. He doesn't with the dude from Gilmore Girls. He does. That's great. Yeah. Oh, that's great.

Good. He's strong as hell. I was texting with him the other day and he was just like, I'm either working or lifting weights or playing with my kids. And that's my trifecta. He's disciplined. The producer of that series is an old friend of mine who I did a movie with. I think with, um,

gosh, we shot it up in Canada in Sudbury, Ontario. Subbury, I just shot in Sudbury. Isn't it the town that blew up? Like there's mines there and it blew up. Yeah. That's right. Oh, the mines.

Have you been down in the mines? No, go in the mines. I was making a Christmas movie, Paul. Oh, it's so cool. I was playing with reindeer. Hilarious. Okay, so the Julian and the Brook of it all, we like them personally

I don't like this coupling I don't like all the pressure it's really stressing me out I did love Sophia's black flip hairdo and her black motorcycle jacket because I have this was like the Carol Cuttschall episode

you were in a leather jacket I noticed that too yeah I was into your rebellious red hair this was like the first time I really showed up that was fun sick of the blonde shit you were rebelling 2009 right it was 2009 yeah yeah yeah yeah 2009 okay okay wow yeah okay so there's that let's talk about

college party this random college party in the middle of a day have any of us actually been to real college parties is my question because i'm a drop out i would do a few did you have like greek life all this like you know it's not as i mean that's a really american phenomenon Greek life. You know, Canada, there's more clubs rather than, you know, fraternity. We have them, but it's not a, it's not the thing it is in America where it's, you know, I just don't, it's not profound. It's, you know, it's very different. But I would say, well, Canadians are wonderful, unique people. So it's just different, I guess. We're not tacky is what he was trying to say. We're not doing your tacky clubs. I did John Sears on, on Beverly Hills 902 and O.

and all of my scenes were that life and they're kind of made up like that a little bit to be a little more risque, a little bit more evil, a more stuff but I guess there's all bad stuff and good stuff but I mean, I think there's, I don't know, do you remember about last night? That whole movie was about that life.

Was it, remember, you didn't see about last night the original movie, did me more and, and no, okay. No, but I think, Gigi represented a fantasy on our show of like a hot chick throwing themselves at you and so it makes sense that she exists within this fantasy of like now there's a whole pack of chicks

at our disposal So weird though How would it be differently if it was if there was a predominantly female writing stuff how would that been represented differently? The college party you mean? Yeah, the college parties yeah because a perspective is completely

is everything isn't it? It is, but I didn't go to any college party. I've never been to a frat. I don't know. I've never, that's why I asked. I was like, who of us has actually been in that situation? Because I went to school in New York City. Like, there were no frats or sororities at my college.

We just went to the Blarney Stone. It's different. One of the most academic at the University of British Columbia. I didn't, I mean, I went to some parties, but it was never like that. Like I said, it was, these were, you know, brain, cerebral kids, really. kind of studio. What we're saying is someone should invite us to a party just for research. Just for college research. We're going to get an email. And then that, you know, it's crazy that we were so close to you and CW and no one invited us to a party. We were so close to. Were we that lame that no one

wanted to party with us? I think James went to those parties because he was the young one. I forget that we were in a college town too. Yeah. The college kids didn't want to hang out with us. They were like, Nope, hard pass. Whatever. I did love this storyline though. I really liked, first of all, I love a friend who shows up at your house when you're not feeling well and is like, get in the car. We're taking a road trip.

Let's ride. Or just shows up and takes you, makes you take a walk or go for coffee or something. I just love that. And as much as I disliked the college party environment, I, for multiple reasons, mostly just because I felt really bad for Kelsey. It just felt like such a weird situation for her to, constantly be put in. I liked this version of skills trying to work out his own relationship issues,

like trying to have mouth do it skills as way and then realizing this is not who you are, man, let me actually take you, let me give you an opportunity to see what you think you're missing and then I'm going to take you to see who you really need. You're such a good friend. I just liked it. I didn't even think skills is creepy. I didn't mind the party. I thought it was like fun.

It reminded me of the parties that we had when we were in high school. The only thing that's creepy is like the dudes that are clearly out of school going back for it. But then I thought back to my own college days and I was dating like a 25 year old who would come into the dorm and looking back, it's so gross. It's like embarrassing almost. That's what it is. It's embarrassing that mouth and skills are. standing there you had them dressed very differently from everybody else so they stick out like sore thumbs and that that visibility was important to the storytelling it was like oh actually this isn't a

world that we fit and we're the old guys we should go home do you remember how they held a mouth upside down for the keg drink thing oh yeah and then jamie with the car too that was great i thought I was so clever by putting Jamie upside down in there, which was an idea I had to match. I liked it. It was clever. It was cute. Those kinds of things make the show,

it make it interesting to watch in random moments. It's just like little Easter eggs of, hey, guys, we're here doing fun stuff for you. I like it. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia,

and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for the kinds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis,

who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, let's get into the garage. though because because I love those two together right wasn't it great to see the brothers kind of calmly They're in Keith's garage

There's a real beauty to Chad and James together because they come to the same emotion from two really different places and James has that very old Hollywood kind of huh there's like it's almost like a very slow

Carrie Grant, Joey Stewart kind of reaction. There's just a classic nature to the way he reacts to news about Dan to laying eyes

on the garage after all this time to giving advice to Lucas. Yeah, it's deeply internal. It's really slow and it's fun to watch it on furl and then Chad has a very modern approach

to things and he's very, his emotion is very visible right away. And it's, you know, stereotypically, it would be described as like feminine, really, because women are stereotypically the ones that are vocal about their emotions. But Lucas, have been raised by a mother is someone who is quick to acknowledge his emotions. And so it's cool to see these guys in this space that's so meaningful and for you to be the bad guy directing them through this scene. It's hard to, it's hard to imagine them. hitting their mark and then hearing Dan Scott yell action I think they divorce

themselves from that when I'm directed I don't know what they assume but I will say what you what you hit there was very astute you found something really beautiful what I call those little hidden gems is Chad seemed to me always seems to me when he's working with James as curious about finding things out and James although has the wall and it's kind of reluctant to share his emotion so easily he wants some to work to get them out of him. Yes. And so when Chad gives him that gift,

James gets to be more than what we often get because he wants people to like, please ask me, please ask me, but I don't really want to tell you because, you know, and then when he does, you go, oh, it's really beautiful to watch. That's such a good way to describe it. He wants someone to ask and Chad is ready to ask. Yes, yes.

Yeah, I loved that. And I liked the interesting. introduction of Jamie into that scenario too, that he was watching a little kid try and figure out how the world works. When he asked, is it okay for me to still miss Grandpa Dan? Like, how do you, is it okay for me to be angry and also miss someone? Is it okay for me to like acknowledge something that's bad, but also still have love? Like, those are really big concepts and to watch a little kid struggle through them. I like being reminded of the things that we think about as a child and we still carry those thoughts with us as we grow and grow and grow

and don't even necessarily have the answers to them. We just keep revisiting it over and over and over again. Yeah, he did a great job and seeing him in the Keith costume with the boots and the pants tucked in. You know, that legacy of what does it mean to be a Scott, the father to son, uncle to nephew relationship. I like that our show perpetuated that and just like kept it going. And yeah, this idea that Dan's going to die, Paul, I would love your take on things because this was the episode for me as we were reaching the end of our contracts where it really solidified that they were toying with the idea of killing me. And they'd already killed Keith and they'd put Moira on a shelf and all the actors who were being paid well.

from the beginning were cut off and it occurred to me as, you know, Peyton's preparing for her own death that, oh, I should do this emotional labor right now. I should prepare myself because I don't know what's going to happen the same way Peyton doesn't know. But for you, you're also in this limbo where it's like, are they really going to kill me? And you've been living there much longer than me. I struggle sometimes because I know that all this goes public. Sure. I mean, there might be a headline. No, no, no. I mean, I want people to know things, but I'm also careful because, as I said, you know, I'm, I get hurt easily.

And so I got to be careful that I don't. I was told at the end of that season that we're cutting your salary. It's take it or leave it. So I knew that there was some in the writing signs that if I didn't take a reduced salary, that I was gone and so I decided that I was probably going to be gone because I was like feeling

I'm worth whatever I'm being paid you know I've established myself and I think I have value to the show and I hopefully feel the audience feels that way but that didn't matter at that point at the end of the day we agreed on me only doing

10 episodes the following season I think and I would still be directed because they didn't want to fire me as a director they just wanted to get rid of me as an actor because they thought they were paying me too much or they were cutting into whatever they were doing whatever it was and they're bringing in new cast all kinds of stuff

and so I took a new cast that they would pay nothing all over again and I took a reduced salary for the last couple seasons and then kind of got a little bump again near the end but it was I was hurt because I'm sorry Paul value it's but it's it's hurtful

to build something and be told you're not valuable enough to maintain your your salary. Especially when you know how much money they were making on the production and that the producers and the studio. Like there's just, it's unreasonable. It's me. It could be considered that. And what I tried to do was say to myself, well, first off, the audience needs a proper sending off of this character. They deserve a storyline that means something. So let me do the 10 episodes and give them that. But then Dan kind of caught fire again. And they couldn't get rid of me, really.

And so they kind of were like, well, but you come back and I'm like, no. I was like, you wanted the 10 episodes. I'm so happy to give it to you. And, you know, but they didn't finish the storyline. And then they said, well, you have a great idea. And then they pitched me this other idea where we all know where it went. And I said, that sounds super fun. I'd love to do it.

You know, I just can't do it, you know, at that price. And because I feel like, you know, it's wrong for me to take less than what I feel I'm worth, even though I think it's a great story. and I'm really happy about it. And so we worked out something else, which wasn't what it should have been. But it's like, again, nobody has a right to, in our industry to say, like, you know, I deserve a certain amount of money. You deserve what you can negotiate because that's business.

Yeah. Well, yeah. It's in every business. Yeah. But it's really rare in other industries. If you worked at the bank and they came to you and they said, hey, you've been here a decade, it's so cool. We're going to pay you 70% of what we've been paying.

You know, like any other industry, that's such a weird shoots and ladders thing to do to a person and living in that limbo, you know, we're in 619 here and there's five more episodes left in this season. And so you're working for five more episodes having to wonder, am I behaving well enough? Am I making people happy? What did I do wrong? Is anyone going to give me a straight answer or am I getting the run around? like the manipulation was really um well you guys felt it too i mean yeah different ways but let me just say this on a positive note i didn't once you make the decision what your decision is i do let it go and i focus on the work because you have to you know i completely let it go and i never have been

brought it up to the producers i never brought it up to the cast never brought to anybody because i'm a pro and as are you guys and once i make the decision it's my decision and i'm going to live with it So I didn't want it, and that's why I never speak about it really. I brought it up because you brought up a point about, hey, there's a foreshadowing here. Sure. And the problem was that. And well, that was a negotiating thing. And it was put on my plate.

It was meant to scare me or whatever. And so I brought it up because it was a storyline that they used in a way to haggle with an actor about money. Well, it's how they haggled with Craig about his facial hair and his bandana and like the stuff he wanted. They said either change these things or we will get rid of you. And he was like, not going to change these things. And they got rid of him. So we'd already had it, you know, model for us. And power plays that go on behind the scenes that affect the work.

He was missed, Joy. Craig was missed when he was gone. So much. It was a hole in me. And I think in you guys, too. He was such a calming and, you know, a very. veteran, you know, and a lovely human being who really cared for us all. It was, it was, I know that what they had to do, they had to do, but I deeply missed his presence. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, he was one of the biggest hearts of the show. Everybody, you know, representing a part of the body as a whole, what this show was. It's so funny. I have, I had like goosebumps in these conversations. Don't you guys get that way when you talk about? Well, because it, the line between fact and fiction because we were a unit off camera and obviously a unit on camera because that's the story that we're telling. But what happens on camera affects what happens off camera and vice versa. So yeah, living with that loss and knowing how quickly and, you know, severely it can happen, we're all prepped and ready for it to happen, you know, for our heads to roll at any point. And so I felt, I felt taken care of in this moment where it dawned on me that Peyton might die because my contract was up because you were the person who was at the helm of how, how I was portraying it.

And every other director always wanted me to cry. I mean, every visiting director was like, can we get a tear? Can we get a sniffle? And I just love the scene. I have such tactile sense memory. of that hat box at the end of the episode that Peyton's putting the sketches in, I wanted to keep that more than any other prop I'd ever had on the show. I wanted it so bad. And I have such memories of you being like, don't cry when you put that picture in here. Like you don't let them

see you cry. You are in full control of what's going on. And that that sense of like bittersweet empowerment, I hold very dear. Because, things do end people do die stuff falls apart and you can keep your chin up you know i could get a compliment from anybody in the world it would be just like that that makes me feel well it's a compliment to you all well no it's a beautiful it's why i'm saying is i'm grateful for the recognition of how much i care about you guys you know i mean that means the whole 10 years of my life in north carolina if it was just one compliment like that it would be worth it all you know i love that Well, we all had those moments with you.

I'm glad I didn't cry. Those motherfill me then. I don't draw some pictures. I'll leave a box behind. I don't care. I never cried in public either. You gave us our dignity, damn it. I love it.

You were like the walls, Paul. You were just there kind of watching, listening, and you just had just the right door or window for us at the exact right moment to open up and share something or remind us of where we were and what we needed, what was important. But you were so good at that, just sort of being there, hands off and showing up exactly when it was needed, like in that moment. Oh, that means everything. I also remember that, you know, all you guys had come with such wide eyes, such excitement. I remember everybody's face the first time I was introduced to each one of you.

You know, even Sophia, I remember the very first time she came on the stand. I remember, you know, everybody. And it was just kind of like, this is going to be something. It's going to be something. And I didn't know if it was like even the pilot, Michelle, but we know where it picked up. I felt this is going to be something. Everybody brought such hope to their work. You know, wouldn't it be great if every experience was like that?

I didn't, I hadn't felt that on every experience I was on. And in fact, I felt very much an outsider on many shows I've been a guest on. And films are different. because those are sort of, you know, location ships with people and then you're gone. But this was never, has there been anything like family? And because I was such an evil and maniacally bizarre character, so many ways and unpredictable. And I love that.

I was the spice in the stew. I love that. But I was never unloved by people on the cast. I was loved. And that was what made it okay to go to those places in those scenes. I made it okay. You know, and I know that even the tensions that I had with certain people, you know, are long forgotten and long forgiven.

And there are moments of, like, humanity, not moments of evil. That makes a difference. Well, so then how did you direct our new big bad, this principal fall? I hope that woman, I'm so glad she had you to hold her hand through this weirdness because who are you talking about? The principal rim kiss who shows up in your living room. Joy, you had so much to do in this episode. Haley was in everybody's house for all.

office. Haley traveled this episode. But then this woman had the audacity to walk her ass into your living room. Into my house. Children I can forgive. But a grown ass woman, that's a Dan Scott move to walk into somebody else's house. It is. Talk about making the writing work because that's just in the script. Like the kid says something and turns around and there she is in the living room. And you got to figure out how to make that believable. You asked me about that on the set. You said, how come she just shows up? How can she just be you ask me like? Yeah, I'm sure I did. And you were like, I don't know, Joy, it's in the script.

If you had a question about it, you should have called the writer five days ago. You let the door open. Yeah. I would have loved her to see her just like pop up in a window. What are you guys doing here? Well, that's funny.

It was, but it was a good, it was like, it was Haley's dangerous mind moment. You know, she's got her leather jacket on. Oh my God. Piper teacher had on. Totally was. Dangerous finds light. Yeah.

No, it was fun. I mean, we had a good time. It was fun working with all those kids. And, yeah, I mean, you always made it so easy, Paul. And just everything that you were just saying is so true. You know, it is, it's a family. And that's what we created. And it was a safe space for us as a family to do so many things and experiment with so many things.

And yeah, thank you for being so magical. whimsical and curious you've really kept your curiosity it's wonderful and so I had that conversation with Quinn the other day I was like I said the only thing I hope for you is to never lose your curiosity I said people who are curious are so interesting and so fun to be around and that's what I said I remember that conversation we had yes what does he think about has he ever watched one trio um he's never watched it but one time when he was feeling I think it was like nine or maybe 10 years old. We were somewhere and somebody recognized me.

And Quinn said, do you want me to take the picture? Do you want me to take the picture? My dad was Dan Scott on one true deal. Do you want me to take the picture? No. And I'm like going, honey, it sounds like you're very proud of me. And he goes, he goes, well, I've never seen the show, dad. You know that.

I'm like, okay. He's very, Quinn is the most interesting, bizarre as Troy will tell you. I like bizarre. He's the best. Well, when your dad is like an iconic bad guy, I feel like your son and my children probably have a lot in common because people feel in ownership over you, but also in antagonism when they see you in public. And so as a child, especially like my kid, your kid entering their teenage years for a teenage boy to have this like bad dad. It's kind of great, like because they get to have some swagger walking into. middle school and high school, like, you know my dad will kick your ass, right?

Like, you know that I come from dangerous stock. There's a, there's an allure to it. I hope he utilizes that. Well, we'll see. He's a, he's a very unique person. You know, he has all kinds of superpowers. Yeah. Who he is, but he's also got some interesting challenges in his life, you know.

So I find it to be, I don't know what you guys think, but, you know, raising a kid nowadays, I'm terrified that I'm not up to how fast things are changing and I'm trying. But I'm more terrified that I'm not up for it than they are, that I'm not able to learn and grow and evolve and understand what the challenges they're going to be facing is. So the One True Hill world that we grew up in, which was even a televised television version of a world, is almost like the 1920s.

Oh, my God. What the kids are going through. And my son said, Dad, do you know, that we're close that the 1970s was as close to the 1920s as we are to 2000 as in 1970s and I went what the 90s are the that's a rude thing to say the 1970s are as close to the 1920s as 2024 as the 1970s so think about that you were born when the 1920s people were like the great depression yeah and my grandma and as you as your kids are to you know 1970s to 2020 it's like wow it's shocking yeah no it hurts and I remedy that by only letting

my child have a flip phone Paul and it alleviates so much bullshit I'm like you're allowed to have 90s technology friend here you go the way to do it it it may look different but native culture is very alive my name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history.

On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. okay we have a fan question here we go if you had only one hour to spend in tree hill and you have two options here would you rather hit the night out on the town with deb or have an insightful conversation with karen in her cafe

unfair because i love that you're the guest for this and i love them i think my favorite Favorite time is with Deb were when we were warring each other like the War of the Roses. Yes. Yeah. So, and I do love, I do think there was chemistry with both characters. I do love the intimacy. And, I mean, honestly, the weird part about working with Moira was that her, her emotions were so palpable.

And then I felt hatred towards me. I tried to be smug and I tried to be like, well, she's just doing this because she really loves me because I have to justify these behaviors, right? So as a character, I'm going, well, the only reason she's doing this

because she still cares about me. That's the only reason she'd be talking to me like this. If she didn't care about me, right? Yeah, it makes you better. Yeah, it works better for the character. If she didn't care about me, she wouldn't care. She cares so much she's showing me her hatred, which means she's actually still in love with me.

And that's how I would play it. which is incredible right that's got to make her it doesn't matter which is good for the character for the show with deb i didn't have to go there because it was more like i don't want to say this in a bad way but sort of like um foreplay yeah that's it i never got the sense that deb hated dan i always thought it was a version of like oh you're making me crazy so the energies are very very interesting but so so they're so energies are very interesting but so different, you know. Yeah. I don't like feelings. So I'm probably going to go with the going out option. Like, I want to be, I want to be out. And we've seen how Tree Hill can party. We've done bachelorette parties and limos and what else have we done in Tree Hill riverboats? Yeah. It's a party town, folks. It is. Apparently, there's crazy college parties. I'd go out with Deb too. I'd go, I mean, Deb is, are you kidding me? Deb's got people in catsuits climbing on billboards.

I'm going with Deb. She didn't with Karen, though. I directed that episode. I know, but she had to convince Karen to take, you know what I mean? That's right. I love that you too. She's dangerous. Yeah.

Karen's great. I mean, I love a good conversation, but I have a lot of those in my life. I need more like nights out, people dragging me out doing fun stuff. Less feelings, more fun. Now you're coming to the dark side. I like it. So listen, what's our honorable mention for this episode? What was something that really stood out to you and felt meaningful or nice?

Well, what about you? What about your, in the in the Cota? Yeah, that incredible moment you have there. I thought that was kind of beautiful, you know, with your artwork and your, you know, again, a soldier and private moment, right? I thought that was even very well and poignant. Yeah, really beautiful. Thank you. I, I loved, loved, loved, loved, loved, loved, loved, loved, loved Sam and Jack and their little first kiss. And the buildup to it, the awkwardness of it. I wish when we had been playing teenagers, we had had more awkward kisses because we were expected to be very, like, practiced and sexy and experienced. And these kids actually resemble real teenagers in their, just their weirdness and what they say to each other.

And then when she doesn't leave for LA and she comes back and sees him the diner and says, so about that kiss? And he goes, yeah, this is awkward. Like, they just absolutely don't know the right thing to say. And he's building the Tower of Creamers. That had to be your idea, Paul. Yeah, but you know, what was great was also when Kelsey's mom was on the set, which is nice. That was Ashley's mom.

Yeah, sorry, Ashley's mom was on the set. Yeah, she was on the set. And I think that really made it nice because you have, you know, the support. Yeah. You know, you know, having your suit rate next to me and the whole thing and having that guidance from, you know, the mother and all that's nice. I don't know. Just get made of people. It was a great storyline, though.

That was so cute. He's a good actor. Yeah, he's done okay for himself. Evan Peters is fine. He's doing great. My honorable mention goes to your long lenses, man. It sucked me into the storyline. It really did.

I always feel like there's something, it's more intimate when you are, when I'm watching something on a long lens and the fact that you used it to actually make some of the storylines that didn't make sense to make them work. Better. Really impressive. The Julian Baker Long lens. Just to me be great. By the way, don't forget, Pete Yorne's song was fantastic in the episode.

Oh, I love Pete Yorne. That's right. I love that song. I think it was a great, great piece of music they chose for. Yeah, yeah. Well, should we spin a wheel? Let's spin the wheel. All right, Paul, we do our most likely to. You're familiar. Are you our most frequent guest? You know. Oh, hey now. Who is most likely to date someone 15 years younger than them, Paul Johansson? I love that this is what the Google random thing pulled up.

the day you're on our show. Yeah, why would the wheel ask us back today? Yeah, I mean, I think I would say who's the most random? Who's the most likely to do that? You have to pick a real life one and then a character.

And then a character. Well, Whitey doesn't have much of a choice. That's what I was going to say. I was like, who is Whitey's like fling? Like, what teacher at Tree Hill High after Camilla died? Did he have a non-committed romp with in a locker room.

I would have loved it. I would have loved it. No one could know about this. And what about He was Lewis in real life? How much older than us are you? You played like our dads, but

because my parents really thought I was going to date you during the pilot. They were just like, Hillary, don't do it. Don't. I was like, what are you talking about? They're like,

see the way you two laugh we see like all the yeah i saw you on your m tv show and you just charmed everybody you or everybody loves you it couldn't even the camera guys loved you they would it's like you were so you were a magnet in a different world did we date in a different world no because i want to be friends with geoffrey i know that's it well i mean he he says he wouldn't have dated me if he had been on the show. He never calls me. I want to work with him. I want to hire your husband for everything. Well, come to Boston. He's filming with zombies right now. And the other night, he had people leaning out of the window telling him not to do any of the drugs in whatever town they're shooting because there's fentanyl in it. And I'm like, Jeffrey,

where are you right now? Come on. Oh, my God. Now, listen, I like an age gap. I can endorse an age gap. And I know a lot of people look down their nose at it, but I like an age gap. And I'm going to stand by that decision. Mine's 17. Everybody's consenting and everybody's legal. But love is a very peculiar thing because in my life, I've been lonely and I've been with people who were, you know, I don't know, but I thought we're filling holes in my life. And then I've been with people that never could feel the whole of my life. And then it's kind of like, I don't know, when you find your person and they're, you know, have their own lives and themselves and are doing things and they bring

joy to you and you're healthy for each other, you find a way because love is freaking hard. Age gap or no age gap, love is hard, man. Yeah. Don't you think? Yeah, it is. It's work. I like a settled person that's like. This is what I am.

Yeah. I'm going to get it. You know, that was appealing. Because our lives are so frantic all the time. Yeah, at some point the age, the number of the age just doesn't become a factor if the person is the right, if it's the right match. If your baggage matches. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of a strong opinions out there.

And, you know, we can't, you can't control, you know, how people feel about things. You can just live a good life and hopefully they'll see. You're a good girl. I said anytime there are those like BuzzFeed articles where they're like age gaps, ooh, yuck. I'm like, oh, no, are they going to put us in it? Yeah. And sometimes they do.

And it's okay because, you know, you know, everything's cool. I like Whitey having a dalliance, you know. Yeah, we miss that storyline. You remember Ashley's mom on the show was played by Sean Young? Yeah, that's right. Later, she came back. Was that Ashley? No, that wasn't Ashley's mom. That was Abby's mom. The character, Abby, was played by- Oh, that's right in school. That was, yes, earlier on. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. What was Abby, the actresses-Cambati? Skagliotti. Skagliotti. Yeah. Allison Skagliotti's mom was Sean Young.

That's right. Yeah, did you kiss her? Whitey could have kissed her. Oh, yeah. She was crazy, though. You're right. She was crazy, though. Wasn't her character crazy? Was she not? I missed it. I forgot.

Guys, if it's not, if I haven't seen it, read it, heard it within the last like two months, I can't remember. It's applesauce. Okay, friends, next episode, season six, episode 20, I would for you. I would for you. Thanks for coming, Paul. Thanks for coming on the show and talking with us. Always a pleasure. You're the best, honey.

You're the best, guys. I miss you both. I miss you too. Give love to that boy. Oh, yeah. All right. Come visit us in New York. During us.

Happy birthday, Quinn. Up to the Y. We used the eye from the births. We were happy B-day and threw the rest of it out. And he goes, dad, you miss no birthday. And I went, you see if you could catch it. He goes, I did. I did it.

Incredible. All right, buddy. We love you so much. Thank you. Love you. Bye, everybody. It's week. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's O-T-H.H. Or email us at Drama Queens at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time.

We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. You can see the smart girl, rough girl, fashion, but you'll tough girl. You could sit With us, girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop.

That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other Native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burnbridge. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.