Drama Queens - Tan France

Episode Date: May 27, 2026

You know Tan France for transforming style on "Queer Eye," but stepping onto the global stage as TV's first queer, brown, Muslim man made him fear for his safety. Now a decade later, Tan opens up about the rewards and revelations that came out of his wild ride with the Fab Five. Plus, Tan talks trading in the title of fashion expert for several unexpected roles, including theater producer, onscreen drug lord, and hilarious gavel wielding judge!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. You have the desire to help a real difference? The College, LaCite, you offer the program Dependance and Scenti Mental. Acquare the competences

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it's possible with the CET. Visit CollageLacacac .C. D.M. Now, an initiative of the Consortium National of Formation in Health,

supported by Santee Canada. Hi, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to Work in Progress this week, friends. We are in for such a treat together. One of my favorite TV hosts is here to talk about 10 iconic years of a major project and the projects that are coming up next.

You guessed it. Today, TAN is probably, one of the most recognizable figures in global pop culture, known not just for transforming style, but how people see themselves, like really see themselves and feel about themselves. But before Queer Eye made him a household name, he'd built a career in fashion from the ground up. And now, after Queer Eye, he's expanding his curiosity about storytelling and his reach through his own production company and continuing to shape cultural conversations around identity, representation, and he's doing it with that signature warmth and humor and personal flair that we all

love so much. He's also taking risks. Tan is doing things that scare him, including acting, and his passion for risk-taking is leading him everywhere. From TV screens to the theater district in London, Tan is really just getting started. I think because his perspective is so rooted in lived experience and his unique and authentic voice resonates well beyond even his own expectations. And that is lucky for us. Let's dive in with Tan France. Well, hi, I'm so glad I got to meet the baby. Hi, it's so good to see you. That's bad. I appreciate it. We're back. I can't believe how long it's been since I've seen you.

The last time I saw you, we were at brunch. I don't know if you remember this, you and I went for brunch place on sunset called whatcha baker something something and the cappuccino maker i remember yeah wonderful loved it gorgeous you also i i have to like say for all the friends at home i don't know what amazing like special magic happened that day but truly i remember thinking this is why everyone cries on the show you were telling me about your book and you told me a story i think you were writing your first book at the time. And you told me this story. And before I knew it, we've gone from giggling to you had me in full tears at brunch. And I was like, what is happening? Is this what happens on queer eye? Yeah. It was so, like, it gave me a giggle. And also I was like,

I didn't know I was going to be so emotional today. That I, I don't think it's ever intended, but almost everyone of my friends has had the same experience saying, it's just a TV show. obviously it's just a TV show. But then when we're in person, that duality of, I am, anyone who knows me knows, I have a playful person, I'm a clown. I'm not a very serious person. But somehow inevitably, during most hangouts,

we have a tearful moment. You and I are the same. I am similar in the way that I'm incredibly goofy. I'm always laughing about something. You know, also I come from a long line of like insane Italian people from New Jersey. I'm very sarcastic. And for some reason, you know, I'll be at a party and I wind up in the corner having a conversation with someone and I'm their therapist for an hour.

Same. Same. But I love that. I actually love that. I don't want to. My mom constantly is saying, when are you going to grow up? At some point, you could just grow up. Like, not everything has to be a lot.

But I love that I haven't grown up. I love the playful side of myself. But I also don't want people to think they can't tell me something as per advice. And so I will always give an opinion and it will often lead to tears and I don't know why. It happens with almost everyone I know. But I would rather that than people think, he's one note, but I can't take anything seriously. Yeah. Well, I actually think for a lot of artists, I think a lot of people who are artistic are by nature more empathetic.

And so something happens, even in the middle of a party, if someone has something going on, it's like I can feel it. Yeah. And the more it comes out, the more I'm going, are you okay? And then we're just in it.

Do you feel like it's that thing? Yeah. And I also think when you sense it, you're doing a disservice to just pretend it's not happening because it's not the right setting. Yeah. There's no such thing as the right setting.

I could figure out, as you said, you'll go into a corner, you're sat in a corner of a room and you're having a full of heart to heart. There's always a space for it. I can always make space for it. Yeah.

And so, And I think that just creative people in general, as you say, were empathetic people, I do feel that that is very to believe the case. I think that to be a greater person, you've got to be ready in touch with your emotions. Yeah. Do you think if you look back, and I love asking people this question, but I really love asking parents this question, because I think when you are relating to your kids and helping them grow,

you interact with your childhood self in a way. And I wonder if you think about knowing these things about yourself as you do as an adult, if you looked back and we got to, you know, go through the wardrobe, as it were and like hang out with 10 at 9 or 10 right now. Would you see those qualities in him? Like, who was that little boy? What did his life look like? Do you know, the crazy thing is that I don't think, obviously I've, I've, I've, I've

matured. But I don't think that the person I am is so far removed from the person I was. I was anyone who can't tell by the sound, if you're just watching this, I am a homosexual. Even my voice gives it away. But I wasn't more effeminate as a child. I was more mass than presenting as a child than I am now. It's just because now I'm uninhibited and I'm not trying to hide anything. But as a kid, I was always playful, but I was always really compassionate, really caring.

And I was a real caretaker as a kid. I was the youngest. So of my siblings, I've got three of the siblings. My parents were together. And so I shouldn't have had the freedom to just be the spoil youngest child. And I have to get me wrong. My siblings still spoil me and give me a pass, whereas the elders wouldn't get a pass. But I was still wanting to make sure my mom was okay.

Like my main, my main resting state was, is my mom and my sister okay? Are they to care of? Do they feel happy? If they don't feel happy, what can I do to make them happy? The boys I didn't care that much about.

I loved my brothers, but we fought, like we fought like brothers. We were very violent brothers with each other. We love each other now still, but we were very violent brothers. But if you were to have seen me, It was just a tinier version of me now.

Well, and then you have the whole layer of space and place. I'm cackling, well, I cackled earlier when you said, if you can't tell from listening to me, I thought you were going to say I'm English. Also that. But any American, the question is, are you South African, Australian or English? I'm like, so clearly, English. English. And but growing up, you know, north of London, you had that hybrid culture because you grew up in the UK and you are Pakistani.

And so I imagine it's so much easier to know what that meant to your childhood now. When you are part of a very, very small minority group in a town that is very much the same. same, you have to grow up really quickly because you are faced with the world a much earlier time than most. For example, I swear this is not meant to be a race thing, but I'm just going to tell you how I feel. I don't think many Caucasian kids in my hometown ever had to really think about where did I come from? What's my place in this town?

Am I safe in this town? of my parents safe and I'm talking about physical literal physical safety um I don't think that ever had to be a consideration for them really a very very engaged and we start at school early so by the time we're five or six we're in primary school it's not like in america where kindergarten's five or six and so you learn very early on by five or six am i safer am i not safe is this home or is this not home. Do I belong here? Do I not belong here? And those existential questions are strange for such a young child, I think, and it really does inform how you navigate this world. And so, yeah, you're absolutely right. Being different, being Pakistani, but also, I knew I was queer from a very young age.

I don't remember a time I wasn't queer. I don't think there was ever a time when I thought I'm attracted to the people that my brothers were attracted to. I did that. I never felt that. And so for all those reasons, you're trying to play a completely different person as a six-year-old, which is very complicated. Yeah.

It's very complicated. You're trying to be white, even though you're so clearly brown. You're trying to be straight, even though you're so clearly queer. You're trying to speak English when that's not your first language. You're trying really hard to make it

so that you don't get away that you've got an accent, but that's not your language. It's so of course you've got an accent. So, Jeff, you are playing so many complicated roles at such a very early age. Yeah. To have to learn to code switch like that as a kid is crazy. And, you know, I think about this a lot. There's all these variations of passing, right?

Like straight passing or white passing or cis passing or whatever that benefit people. But they benefit people just because they remove layers of threat. They essentially get you closer to the safety that a white cis straight man just implicitly has. But I will never forget the moment when it dawned on me that I was not safe in the world the way my male friends were. I know exactly how old I was when the difference of safety for girls dawned. on me. I was seven years old and I was like, oh. Yeah. And then you learn that lesson at an increasing sort of speed and force through all your teenage years. And it's enforced in a greater, greater way as you get up. Yeah. And so I think it's really interesting that queer kids, kids of color,

like there's just this whole experience that people have when they're not kind of the tip of the privilege spear. And nobody wants to be. And nobody wants to. to talk about it, but to your point, I don't actually think it's like, I get that it's hard and I get that everybody has a sad story. Like, that's universally true. But I actually think if we don't talk about it in a normalized fashion, we avoid it because it's sad. And then I'm like, aren't we just perpetuating the problem? I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. I mean, I have these conversations with my niece and nephews and I will have these conversations with my kids. I have mixed with kids who are the kids of queer parents who are raising their kids in Utah.

Like these concerns will come up. I want to know that you can talk about it. It was taboo to talk about as a kid. You just would not talk about it back in the 80s. But now I just think, no, I'm going to talk about this with my kids and make it clear. It's okay to feel this way. I understand you feel this way. But here's how to work through those emotions.

I think that's really excellent. If I may tell you what I think about parenting, I think that's so great because what I know as an adult, and I wonder if you also have this, as we're all, you know, doing the responsible thing and going to therapy and trying to not make the same mistakes our parents and their parents made, is I realize that the lack of talking about a lot of this stuff made me internalize it and think it was me. Yeah. It gave me all this shame about, well, maybe something's wrong with me. Well, maybe I'm doing something wrong. Maybe I just can't figure it out instead of

hey kid this is a societal thing and if you're aware of it you can navigate it and you won't take it on as a personal failing yeah absolutely yeah absolutely because people not talking about it there was nobody i knew that was queer as a kid maybe a character on tv but we didn't have many queer characters on tv in the 80s and so yeah you think that you are the problem and oh my gosh i'm the only one in the world squash it figure it out it must be my problem. And so yeah, I think if we just opened up the conversation, I think that a lot of kids would feel a lot safer. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. You have the desire to help to make a real difference? The College, the City, you offer the program Dependance and Sentence Mental. Acquare the competences essential for accompany and support the people confronted to the difficulties of health and of dependence. Construise a career enrichingingance to service of the community francophone of all the Don't know

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of gardening isn't perfection, it's the process. Head to miracle grow.com to check out all of their easy-to-use products and start your growth journey today. Do you kind of now look back and see what the markers were for you? How were you figuring out your queer identity? How were you leaning in or leaning out of it as a kid? I know that you said that clothing was kind of, it was like a confidence costume in a way, right? So how did you start to express yourself and figure this out as you grew up?

At first, really privately, I remember so distinctly, we had something called, in England we call them neck curtains or lace curtains. I don't think we never hit America this trend. It was a thing that just always was, it seems. So you know how you have your curtains in America and sometimes you have shears for the daytime so you can open your thick curtains and your shears of that? We don't really have shears. we had lace.

It looked like bridal. Oh, yeah. On the little bars, like the little metal bits in the window. Yeah. Well, I was hung down to the ground. And so in private,

I could act out my fantasies of being a bride and I would sleep under this curtain and use this as my veil as I walked down the aisle to what had chosen to marry me. And so in private, I got to act out who I truly was.

And then at that, in the house. We mostly wore South Asian clothes, which is modest clothing at home. But I had Friday clothes at school. We had dressed down Friday,

so we had some Friday clothes. And so at home, I was constantly putting on clothes that were not appropriate for my family's home. But it was the only way I could show I'm not just a straight, brown, Asian kid in this household.

I feel like I'm a product of both and product of England and Pakistan and I want to show them to that in how I communicate. And I could have the words to articulate it. I couldn't communicate my emotions as a clothes with a thing. And I never thought that that would be where my career would end up. But it makes absolute sense that this kid at six or seven who was changing multiple times a day, for every activity or meal I was changing my clothes and reworking a lot,

it makes sense that that person understands the power of clothing more than anyone. Yeah. And that's absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's incredible, you know, when I just, I just motored through the last season of Queer Eye. I can't believe it's over. I can't talk about it. As a viewer, I'm so sad.

I know what it's like truly after 10 seasons to be like, I'm ready for my next thing, but I'm like, but we weren't ready. But it's wild to watch people. really come back to life. You know, you watch the light pop back into someone's eyes. You see a person who's been judging themselves, you know, internalizing whatever their own critiques or personal shame look like. And then you give them a whole new moment and they see themselves again.

You know, why do you think clothes are that powerful? So I'll start this by saying I do think that I was the luckiest of the VAL FI. I do. I think that I had, and I'm sure everyone will feel this way about that category. I can only really speak to mine. I think that clothes do something

that none of the other categories can do for you. And I think it's because all of us, whether we accept it or not, and if you're at home saying, oh, I don't feel this way, That may be the case for you, but I don't know if I believe it from almost anybody. I don't think anybody walks through life thinking, I think my body is perfect. And I think that I look amazing every time I look at the mirror.

I think every one of us has something about us that we look at it. It just makes me feel sweat and secure. Even if we don't hate it, I don't hate my body. I don't hate my body. But there are certain things about body that I'm like, gosh, I wish that muscles were bigger. I wish that I wasn't so petite. There's always something. And so I think that my category afforded me a luxury that none of the others did,

which is that I get to really change the way you view yourself by just switching out, even just something as simple as a T-shirt, a pair of pants, just something so simple can make you view yourself so differently. And I think the reason why people respond so well to it in person, We call them our heroes. I know you know, but for anyone it doesn't watch Queer Eye. We call them our heroes. And I think that the reason why our heroes feel this way is for the first time somebody's saying,

I want you to look at the positive only. I want, and I'm looking at the positive. And I'm seeing the beauty in you and your appearance and your body. And I want to highlight the best of that. And I think that so often we think people are looking at us negatively. They're critiquing the things, that they're seeing the things that we see in our. ourselves, which they seldom are. It's so rare. Somebody's thinking that thing that you think about yourself.

Yes. And so I think that having somebody there who I would like to believe I'm a safe space, I try my best. You don't see this on camera, but I try my best beforehand to make it very clear. I am your greatest champion here. I want the best for you. If you don't feel good in this, we won't even show it on camera. There have been so many times where I put somebody in something that didn't fit, that they were uncomfortable in. I would sit down to production and say, we're not using that. Yeah, cut it. Cut that completely. We're going to do something else. I don't ever want them to feel like the thing that they feel so insecure about, I'm about to show the world. Yeah.

And so I think that I created a safe space to say, I know that you've never let yourself give something else a try because you're too scared it's going to fail. Fail, air quotes, with me and I will find a win through whatever failure would come through. And I think that that's the beautiful. of what my category afforded, every one of our heroes is a safe space where they could at least just try. And look, sometimes we failed. It's a really hard thing to do. You're not going to win everyone, but I think the majority of them saw massive changes in their self-esteem from what we did

with them. Yeah, it's just so cool. What was it like to be shepherding people through that experience kind of, you know, coming out from behind the curtain, if you will, for the heroes, you know, the subjects of the show. And also to know that you were going to be put on TV for the whole world to see, you know, you were really going to take up properly the mantle of one of the five, which means one of the queers. Like, you know, was that, yeah, yeah, yeah, for, for, for you. Your community in particular, was that scary? It was a really strange feeling. Gosh, it was such a strange feeling.

It's so weird to talk about it because it was nine years ago when it started. Yeah, which feels like 100 years. It feels like 100. My gosh, life changes so much in 10 years. So when I first got the job and we started shooting the show, I was really, really nervous. And I think that I had a very different experience of what the show was and what it could mean. to all the others. And I know we all talked about it

after the first season came out that my, my entry point into this was very different for everybody else's. Everybody else just got to be excited. My fear was there hasn't been anybody liked me on TV before.

And so when you take that and then you show this person for the first time, this person does represent a massive community. Yeah. billions of South Asians. And there were like three of us on TV in the US.

There were no queer South Asians. So you're the only one. So I knew what to expect. I knew that there were so many people who were going to hate what I represented, hate what I stood for, were scared of what I represented to the world. And so when the show came out, I know that the rest of the like, amazing.

It was huge. And every time a new article would come out, oh my God, please don't let anyone see it. Please don't let anyone see it. If anyone sees it, that means that they're going to find out who I am. I don't know it was so stupid, but when I got here, I thought, it's going to be a tiny show. I want to do a tiny show. I didn't even tell my family. I thought, well, this was years ago.

This was not, this is not to denigate Netflix. But at that time, no one I knew had that. No one in England was talking about Netflix. They had like a couple of big shows, Orange is the New Black and House of Cards. they've never had an unscripted show. It wasn't what it is now. And so I thought most people in England are never going to see this. And if they see Netflix, they're not going to watch a queer show.

Who's watching queer show? And so it was just something crazy to do for a summer that I would tell my grandkids about, never thinking that my family's going to see this. And so as soon as it started to really pick up, which was the second day, I started to find it thinking, shit, I'm going to get so much shit. I'm going to get so much shit. And then I did. And it was,

my experience was just very different, very different. It was very different. Jonathan and Caramo at the time were like, we see what you're having to represent. And we know, Cromo understood it because Cromo experienced it on the real world back in the day.

He was like, I was a first openly queer black man on a major show. He said, it's terrifying. It is. It's a bizarre feeling. So when everyone was watching, with such joy and such examined.

It was lovely. But internally, I was having a follow a meltdown, quite frankly. Oh, my God, you sweet soul, you really kept it together. You're just like, you've French-tucked and kept it push in. Do you know, let me talk about the French talk, girl pick. I know that the younger generation, so during COVID, there was this article, I think it was by like the New York Times or something that said the French talk is a distinction for millennials.

the younger generation is not doing it. So if you're branch-tucking, you're anemite. If you're not French-tucking, you're a Gen Z. And I just thought, and basically if Gen Z-Z were making fun of it, why would people ever do this? And I just think, even if it's not for you younger generation,

it's so much better than just a big, baggy top. It gives you shape. And even though, you may not love a French talk, it made me something. Like I Even if somebody doesn't know my name They know the French talk guy And let me tell you

That is my knee It really is I love that I went Every now and then When I'm on vacation I have people who don't speak English Were like

French talk They don't know my name But that Yeah And that I think is such A mark of The mark we left on the world There are a certain thing

Like Ante with avocados At the time You feel like I'm making fun. But really, I look back thinking, I was known for something. That's wild that I was known for something.

Yeah. And now a word from our sponsors. You have the desire to help to make a real difference? The College, LaCite, you offer the program Dependance and Sentental. Acquare the competences essential

for accompanying and support the people confronted to health and dependents. Construise a career enriching to service of the community francophone of all the country.

Don't know some quality in French. It's possible with LaCite.com.C.A. day now. An initiative of the Consortium National of Formation in Health

in Health Canada. Well, listen, I don't know what's going on in your house with the kiddos, but I can tell you we're teaching the kids about a French talk in this house. Thank you.

You're very welcome. Thank you so much. I'm like, no, no, you need a little just like a little style angle. You need a... You know, I'm sure you've seen this all over, but the kids, the younger kids, are really leading in

to, are you, do you say your age or no? Yeah. Okay, how old are you, please? I'm 43. I'm a millennial. I'm not, yeah, not Gen Z. So, our, when we were kids, we were wearing baggy shit. Like, we were kids in the 90s.

Like, we were wearing a lot. Yeah. All that. We were really in it. I'm not going to critique it because I'm like, yeah, we did that too. But one day you're going to look back and think, I needed shape. Yeah. I just looked like a lump.

It was all just so big. Yeah. And you have these tiny little legs and that makes it look even tiny. Yeah. It's all a lot. And I just think, yeah, enjoy it. I'm telling you, by the time you get to my age, you can look back and think, I wish I'd just show in a bit of shape. I get that.

I get that. How do you think about it going forward? Because you're doing all these different things. You know, you surprised us all. you're acting on Deli Boys, which is so fun and such a departure from who you are. You know, when you think about that, when you think about your production company, obviously called French Tech Media, how could it not be? You know, when you're talking about bringing a theater show to London, I mean, what,

what does the landscape look like for you right now? Because it looks like you're trying all of the things, and many of them are so far outside of fashion. Yeah. this might sound ludicrous but I'm trying to distance myself from the style and fashion stuff because it was a part of my life for a very long time but I don't know how you'll feel about me saying this or the audience in general feel about me seeing this but I'm so much more than that and I feel and I feel and I felt I still feel stifled by thinking

yeah, I care about clothes, but I don't care that much about clothes. I care about how they feel, but I care. Okay, here's how I want to answer this more succinctly, I guess. I care about how clothes make me feel. I don't really care about everybody else's fashion. Whenever I see somebody, the first thing they say is, I was really nervous about what I was going to wear, because I knew, I was going to see you today.

I don't care. Wear what it makes you feel good. That's all that matters if you. You feel like, great. I swear to God, I'm not looking at you, judging what you're wearing. I swear to God that that's not the case. I will judge you for other things. If you're being addicted to someone, I'll judge you for that.

Oh, if you're rude to the waiter, bye. Yeah, you're rude to the waiter. I'll judge you for that and I'll tell you. But when it comes to your clothes, I swear to get, I'm not really commenting. If it makes you feel good, that's all that matters. And I would like, but even on the queer eye, okay, there were some things I'm like, I know I can make you feel better. I know you love this, but I know I can get a version of that that's going to

you feel even better. But on the whole, even on query, I'm like, I'm not trying to give you my clothes, but I'll give you what makes sense for you. And so the reason why I'm doing other things other than fashion is I get fashion opportunities regularly. Do you want to host this thing? Do you want to do a podcast about what people want? No, it's not really what I'm excited. No, I don't. Yeah, I really don't. I don't care what they wore. I've got Instagram or Google, I'll Google what they wore and I'll have my own opinions. I don't even talk to them about it. And so I wanted after Queer Eye and Next in fashion, another show I do on Netflix, I wanted to make it clear that that's one side of me. But no one's, or hopefully that one dimensional.

And I really, the acting stuff I was really passionate about because it really challenges me. On where I or in unscripted, I feel like I got it. I know. I got it. I know how to be on camera. I know how to be on camera. It's not hard. I just, I'm a lively person.

I'm an energetic person and I'm playful. That's an easy job for me. I can do it with my eyes close and I don't need to prep. I'm so comfortable with that. I don't, my jobs have never been that easy. The reason why I love to clear out at the start, the reason why I love next in fashion at the start is because I found it very difficult.

It was so. not comfortable. Well, I got so comfortable, I'm like, I've got to do something else. And so I've been taking acting classes for a long term. I'd never talk about this, but let me just say this. Oh, my gosh. Tell me everything. First got queer I.

I was brick in it, which might be an English term. Do you know what, bricking it me? Yep. Okay. Bricking it. And so I shot season one, season two. We shot season one and season two together. We didn't know which episodes were going to be which season.

And then I got signed by a big, Hollywood agency, it's called WME, and my agent was wonderful. We knew we were going to do a red big press tour. Netflix was giving it everything. And I was so scared. I was like, I don't know how to do a talk show. You fucking kidding. You mean be entertaining on a talk show live? I don't think so. So my agent at the time gave me the best advice I've ever been given, which was take an acting class in your hometown I live in Salt Lake

take an acting class for a few weeks you are going to be put in such uncomfortable situations and people that might know you from a queer eye and that's going to really help you be better when you do these press hits and so I did

I did my first press train kit and I hated it and I stopped and didn't know what to do and then I started taking acting classes and it was so so hard. I was so embarrassed. Queer I'd been out for a couple of months. And everyone seemed to know it at that point. It wasn't a sleeper hit. It was a hit.

And so I took up at this class and everyone knew. Oh my God. That's my worst nightmare. It was so mortifying. And then this acting teacher gives me this scene and I have to do it of all these people who know me. And know my voice and my inner thoughts because I give everything on queer eye. You know everything about me on queer eye. So I feel, I felt so vulnerable, but then I started to love it, but continued on. And so for eight, eight and a half years, I've been taking these classes and I just find it so challenging and difficult and exciting.

I love that. And I insisted on auditioning and I self-tapped and then I did an in-person audition where I vomited, which was the most terrified. I litigated into a trash can because that was the only place I could vomit. And then I did my audition. I'd been in TV for eight years at that point. I feel so confident on a set. I walk onto an unscripted sound like, got it. What are you to do?

Play, be a clown? Absolutely. No problem whatsoever. Talk for three hours. Got it. But do this accent, play a character, do this dialogue that's not yours in front of these Disney executives

who just want to see if you can do this because you're trying to France. Why are you doing this cockney accent? That's great. But I did it, and then I went to sat, I thought it was the best week of my career ever. I've never been happier in any job I've ever had in my life. And I just thought, I want to do this for the rest of my life.

And it might not work. But yeah, I may never get another job. But I'm going to try, even if I'm going to try. But I think that's part of it. You know, we're so lucky to be at the time we're in. When I first started acting, you know, I started auditioning right as soon as I got into college. Were you already an actress? Were you taking classes and stuff? I wanted to be a heart surgeon. I had no interest. I thought acting was absolutely ridiculous.

And then I had an arts requirement and I had to do a play. And I was like, I love this. I decided to pursue it. And then I wound up on, you know, my first show at 21. And for the longest time, it was like, well, if you do TV, you'll never make movies. And if you make movies, then, you know, of course you, nobody's going to let you go and just do one season of a TV show. You have to sign on forever. And then, oh, if you're an actor, you can't be a writer. And, you know, if you want to paint, you have to paint in secret under a pseudonym. It was this whole crazy thing.

And now I feel like we're in this really great renaissance of creativity where, you know, People say, oh, if you're interested in that and you have time for it, do it. Yeah. And how gorgeous. Yeah. You know, why not? Yeah. So what's happening with the play?

You're producing the P-word. It's going up in London. Yeah. Are you going to be in it? No, I'm not going to be in it. Okay. Okay, okay. I wasn't sure if we were getting a surprise.

No, gosh, no. Theater sounds absolutely terrifying. Anyone that can do that. Have you ever done theater? Mm-hmm. On the West End? Outside of school. Like once you became,

wow, okay. Yes. And by the way, people were like, do a fun little show off Broadway. And I was like, I'm going to go to the West End.

You wanted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I just was like, I want to do it. Yeah. And it's,

it is so fabulous and it is the hardest, yeah. craziest thing I've ever done. I mean, also I think just at the time I did it when the pandemic was still raging and literally half my company went down.

I mean, people were not, well. And then it was also like suddenly the whole business was on strike. And so then I was just sitting at home being like, well, this is weird. So I went from eight shows a week to being in my house being like, huh, what do I do now? And it was really the first time I'd ever, it was the first time of my life I wasn't attached to a series or a film or I just was off. And I was like, I don't know how I feel about this. I'll start another podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, It, I will say I've never been, and I don't think I ever will be interested in being in a play.

They have a skill set that I wouldn't even pretend I could make work. And so I would never dream of thinking I could do that. But the P-word is a play that I heard about two years ago and was fascinated by. The P-word, I don't know if you know what that means. In England, there's a horrible term for my people, which is Paki. it's such a disgusting slur that has been thrown around brown people since my people came to the UK in the 50s and so that was a term I got thrown at me a thousand times when I lived there and so the fact that they dared to call the play the P-word I thought was brave

and I just thought the story was beautiful it's about two Pakistanis who come together who are navigating the world of being weird or gay in a brown world and a brown Muslim world. And I lived that. That was my experience so publicly. And so to be able to offer my position, to offer my to that or put my weight behind it, it felt almost not,

I don't feel obligated at all. I'm so proud to be part of it, but it feels like an obligation of mine. I was one of the very first. I just think I should use my power for good. and so I want to try and encourage people to go and see this play because it's just a beautiful story. It's not a Debbie Downer story,

even though it's called the P-word, although it's about two brown, queer people. It's a beautiful story. And I've hoped people will just go and see this wonderful theater. Let me tell you, it's so rare to see, actually, I don't think I've ever seen it, a South Asian lead a show in the UK. It just doesn't happen.

And so to see these two people do this, I just think is incredible. I really want people to give them a chance because there are amazing South Asian creatives that just don't get a chance. And this show won an Olivier Award, which in England, I don't know what the American version is.

It holds even more weight than a Tony. It's just, it's an Olivia is just like, it's a critical of success in theatre. And it won it. And so I'm really hoping that this was, with this second one, more people will go and see it. And I just,

want to say this which is uh which i want to be really frank about i have a large white audience and i want the white audience to know this is for them too i didn't an instagram post a few months ago and i've tried do it somewhat often to say here are some shows with brown people and my people in but they're not just for us their english shows they're speaking english like deli boys a show they're play this assassin i'm playing a cockney assassin and it's almost exclusively. The second season they have more Caucasians in, but the first season was mostly a South Asian cast,

but American Indians and Pakistanis. It was all in English, but I think most didn't give it a chance because they thought, oh, this is a brown show. It's not that. A brown show can be for you too. Have you ever seen that show Atlanta? I don't know what...

Yes. Atlanta's fucking wicked. Like absolutely. It's fucking fabulous. And I'm like, that wasn't... I'm sure when they weren't making it, they weren't thinking, well, the queer, brown Muslim community is going to love this. No, they were just making a wonderful show that I just so happened to love.

And I really have tried to explain to my audience, and I sound angry when I'm saying it, but it's just passion. I've watched white shows my entire life. Yes. And I love them. And I've found common ground with those characters. You can find common ground with us. We're regular people.

We're nice. We're fun. We're entertaining. We're horrible. We're mean. We're full. we're fully formed people. You will find something

that you can connect with in any one of our shows, I promise. And so that's why I'm a producer of the P-word. I just, I think that the assumption is, oh, he's brown, so you should be part of it. I know, I want to be a part to it because I want to tell the whites,

watch this. You will learn to me from it, and hopefully, especially you Brits, if you've ever thought of shouting the P-word at one of us, maybe this show will make you reconsider. Yeah, I love that. It is so interesting. Like, I don't know why that, I don't know why so many people who look like me have that reaction.

I know. Because, you know, we've always sort of expected everyone to watch our stories. Yeah. And I don't know why that's not a two-way street or there's this idea that, you know, it's not for us. Like, none of my friends of color have been like, Marvel's not for me except for Black Panther. Like, what? Superhero stories are lit.

Like, what are we talking about? Now, don't get me wrong. People of color always notice the things that aren't jokes for us. Like, in Marvel, there's certain things that come up being like, oh, brown people don't do that. That's definitely. Why? It's okay. You're learning something new.

It's fine to educate yourself. It's funny when I first came on the scene. There were a lot of. of people who were like, I didn't know that you guys were just like us. And they were talking about the gay thing and the brown thing and the mustard. Yeah. Yeah. We're just like you guys.

You have some quirks that are just specifically you. We've got some quirks that are specifically us. But on the whole, I'm just like you. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. You have the desire to help to make a real difference? The College, the city, you offer the program, Dependance and Scente Mental. Acqueror the competences essential for accompany and support the people

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day now, an initiative of the Consortium National of Formation in Health, supported by Santee Canada. Wait, have you seen, I'll have to text it to you. One of my favorite people on TikTok is this hilarious black woman

who goes, the white people phrase, phrases I learned today, and she goes through them list by list. She does a full list once a week, and I, I mean, she makes me cry. I laugh so hard. Please send it. I love. Oh, my God. And she'll just be like, I'm going to use that one. And the ones she really likes, she'll repeat it times and, like, try to get the sound of it right. And I just, like, I scream laughing. It's so funny. One thing I loved about Queer Eye is Karamo and I, especially in the last few seasons, we're tend to each other, each other every now and I'd say white people.

Because we don't do whatever that thing is, or we don't get the thing that they do. We're like, it's got to be a white person. They're like, what is this? You did that. One of the things I'm really loving, bless you for the new show. For our friends at home, Tan has a new series on YouTube called Honorable Gays. And you're basically, it's so genius.

You're doing what my friends and I do all day long, which is like, did you see this insane? thread and we read them to each other and it's the am i the asshole thing and on one of them recently i won't give it away i promise it's not a spoiler but you're talking to two comedians reading through these things one of them is mexican his name's eric sedainio yes and you and you look at the other comedian rob and you go sorry but this is this is white people's shit is white people brown people do not do this and then eric laughed and he's like 100% I was going to say it this is some white people bullshit it's so good the amount of times me and crombo did it and we do on honorable gays it's always the

dynamic between kids and parents that is that's the differentiator a lot of the time it's there's certain ways that brown parents or black parents are with their kids that's very different friend from how white parents are with white kids or vice versa. Yeah. With their parents. And so that's the time where you'll mostly find that non-white people say, oh, that's a white person thing because we don't interact with our families the same way. Yes.

Honorable Gays. So, okay, can I just wax on about honorable gays for a second? Please, I love it so much. I, so I wasn't a YouTuber, never really been a YouTuber. But my, my agents were like, what do you want to do next? And I was like, I think I work well in an ensemble. Actually, I would love your opinion. Do you know what?

It's not very often I get to talk to somebody who's been in an ensemble. You've been to ensembles. And I won't judge you however you answer this. I think that I work better in an ensemble. I love bouncing off people. I'm not trying to beat the star. So when Next in Fashion first came to me, This was like six months after queer I came out.

I was offered a new show. And the show was for me to host solo. And I said to the executive at Netflix, I was like, I really like working with other people. And I think, and I know why you're saying, do it solo.

I don't need that. I don't need to be the star. I will probably share it with whoever else you want. And I thought I guess for who it should be. I don't, I think that being the star, I think is better. it makes you the style when you're with multiple people

and you all get to shine and you're helping other people shine. And I want to know if you feel the same way because you've done a lot of ensemble stuff. Do you typically push it, and I would look for you, to be honest, do you typically push to be on your own or do you think that you are better with others? I love being with people.

I love being on a team. Like, I'm not interested in having it if I have it all by myself. I'd rather have less of a good thing than all of something by myself. Yeah, agree. And for me, the good thing is being with people. So I've really learned that thing where, like, even on a show,

I don't care about billing. Somebody wants the first title card. The agents can fight about that shit. But if there's a male lead and a female lead, if I've signed on first, my one non-negotiable is I will be number one on the call sheet. If I have female, I feel exactly the same way. And I know exactly what you mean about. It just changes.

It changes everything. phrase for sure. With this one, with Honorable Gaze, I wanted to have fun. I loved getting to do Queer Eye for so long. And I, I, I, my resting state is I just want to play. And so Honorable Gays, I'm just going to set the scene for everyone who. Yes, yes, yes. So Honorable Gays is a YouTube series. We've got a full season of eight episodes, but there will drop every two weeks. And it's me and two Honorable Gays. I play a judge. They play both sides of an argument. Eric Sedainio, Rob Anderson, who are incredible online comics, but they also do tours.

And we read, Am I the Asshole Reddit stories. The kind of story, they're so varied, but a bridesmaid falling out with another bride's maid or the bride. Parents who are dating, but their kids are also so dating, that's truly one of the stories. Roommate dynamics. So these stories have submitted, then we discussed the story, but it's also animated. And so I'm the one who created the show, and I really wanted animation to bring these stories to life. And I think the animation is so funny. It's so funny.

He's so good at it. And so we read these stories, and then we decide who's the asshole. There's three stories every episode. It's only 15 minutes. And it's so quick-paced. And it was some of the most fun I've had in quite some time. I absolutely loved it. I love it.

are so damn funny. And I'm really hoping this gives them an opportunity to do. I'm sure they both want to do TV and more tours. I'm like, please, make these boys stars. They are so talented. They are hilarious. Okay, well, I am so thrilled people can tune in to Honorable Gaze on YouTube. You guys, I got a sneak peek at a bunch of episodes.

You're not prepared. They're perfect. I want to talk to you more about that in a special little something coming up. But before I let you go for today, I must ask you my very favorite question, Tan France. What in this moment, when you kind of look at the landscape of life, whether it's parenthood, all these production adventures, what feels like your work in progress? My work you've progressed right now is my personal life, weirdly not. Career, you never know what's going to happen and that ebbs and blows. It's what do I want for the future.

of myself, my husband and my children, we're currently considering a massive move quite roughly. We've been in Utah for 19 years. I built a dream house here three years ago and I thought that this was where I will retire and my life will be complete.

But now it's more of a work of the progress. Now it's a, what more joy can we get out of this life? What more adventure can we get out of this life? What else do I want my kids to experience? And so my work in progress, weirdly enough, is what future do I want for my family that I can control? And what does that look like next? That's amazing. That's so exciting.

It's really exciting. It's terrifying. Yeah. We did a massive move. I moved from the UK to the US and then to Utah. Like, there are massive moves. And I left everything I ever knew. And I'm so scared doing it in middle age.

But I'm like, wow. Why not? I'm still relatively young. And if I don't think now, I'm probably not going to make such a big life in my 60s. So now seems like the right time. I love that for you. Thanks. Terrifying.

Well, let's see how it goes. We'll have to offline about where we're going. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.