Drama Queens - The Fall Out • EP319

Episode Date: October 10, 2022

Reliving this episode is nothing short of heaven… from Whitey’s “why basketball matters” speech, to Karen admitting she was going to need help, to the monumental real-life events happening in Wilmington at the time.   Hilarie, Sophia and Joy are feeling all the effects of the power of this episode almost 16 years to the date that it originally aired. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, everyone. We heard you. We are so excited to share some exciting news for you. Go ahead. We got so many DMs. We had so many sweet DMs from people saying they weren't going to be able to make it to Drama Queen's Live. What could we do? Come to UK. Come to Kansas. Come to Australia. Come to Canada. Come to Brazil. Please come to L.A. Well, we are. We are coming to your homes wherever you are because I Our live stream of the New York show is available to you on October 20th at 5 p.m. Tickets are on sale right now, y'all, at Drama Queen'sOTH.com. You can get tickets to the live stream. Our amazing team at IHeart has made this globally available because we want you guys to be there

with us, whether your butts are in those theater seats or in your most comfortable seats at home. You're our family. We want you with us. And you guys are going to have the best of both shows because we have, different guests at each one of our New York City shows. So you are going to get Barbara Allen Woods, Daphneesaniga, Tyler Hilton, all for, what, $23? Hey, hey. Let's do it.

It's our lucky number, you know what I mean? That's what I'm saying. Visit drama queens.OTH.com to get your tickets to the live stream today. First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl.

Cheering for the right team. You're smart, girl, rough girl, fashion but you're tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Are you ready? None of us want to start. Okay. I love this episode.

This was one of those episodes where there were a lot of like meaningful. Sit down. I want to tell you something moment. And so y'all at home, just sit down. We're going to tell you some stuff. That's what's going to happen. It's just season three episode 19. I slept with someone in Fall Out Boy,

and all I got was this stupid song written about me, which aired April 12, 2006. Sophia, tell them what they've won. What was the synopsis? Well, friends, in this episode, Lucas is having a hard time getting back on the court for the Ravens as they forfeit a game, but he finally tells Whitey and Karen about his heart condition.

Uncle Cooper is in town and dating a new 26-year-old model, supposedly, from Tree Hill. Deb also returns and offers to help Karen get back on her feet. We all burst into tears at that part. And Nathan and Haley take a test to see if they are a compatible couple. Peyton makes a decision about who she wants to be with. Oh, my God. So much fun.

Chalk full of spicy nuts. I don't know. Spicy nuts. Spicy. This was, you know, a Moiric. Moira did a great job. This was her directorial debut, I believe. On our show, yeah, I think so. I think just

all together. I think this was the first time she ever directed anything. Wow. I don't really know where to start. I mean... Well, our episode begins with Lucas, quoting George Elliot,

who we were like, I hope people at home know that George Elliott is a woman. It's a woman. A girl A girl named George. Very dear. A girl named George. It's very apropos for us. I loved, I loved that quote. You know, last week we talked about our experiences with grief. And it's not lost on me that that quote talks about the first time you grieve and how hard it can be because you have not yet experienced suffering and then the healing to have despaired and recovered hope. So you don't know that there's hope on the other side of loss and to think back on, you know, not just how young these characters are, but what it was like when you experienced your first grief. It's a really profound observation and it felt so fitting in that scene between Lucas and Nathan, you know, when they debut the Keith Scott patches and the black jerseys and everybody's just trying to. figure out how to process and carry this experience. I thought it was gorgeous.

This feels like it should have been the last episode. Yeah. Well, Joy, that was my initial impulse, too, just like, wait a second. I thought we had fun last week. And then the more I thought about it, the more I was like, yeah, grief is like the up and down and up and down and up and down. Grief is instability, you know? And so it's not linear. You're going to bounce back and forth between like, I'm okay. I'm not okay.

And to see Lucas do that, you know, we saw him with his crowd last episode. And this episode begins with him very much by himself. And Moira, you know, used the staging of these scenes to show him isolating. And I've done that. I think we've all done that, right? Yeah, because you just don't, it's so hard to figure out where to put it in grief. Like, where do you, where do you put it? What shelf do you put it on?

And you have to keep taking it down to reexamine it and put it back on the same shelf, maybe a different shelf. It's like emotionally we're just kind of, it's just so hard to figure out where it goes, how it fits in your new day-to-day life. So I think we see some of that in this episode. I love that his reaction was, I respect this game, I respect all of you, tell me why it matters right now. Yeah, yeah. I went through a point last year where everybody was dropping dead around me, and nothing mattered.

And I would have to fake it. I would have to be like, no, this job is important, or this thing that I have to do is important. Or going to this meeting is important. And it was all pretend because your brain is just like, what the fuck are we doing? So I think it's important when we do heavy subject matter on our show And we're modeling we're modeling grief for the audience at home that's also trying to figure out how to do it That's an important question like why do these things matter Yeah, and when you're in it

It is very hard to feel anything outside of it You know, I I remember having that feeling when I was in college. My mom got sick. And suddenly it was time to take midterms. And I was taking theater classes and creative writing. And I was like, are you all kidding? What is this matter? You want me to come to class and take a test? Like everything felt so impossible to care about because one of the people I care about the most was in a period of an uncertain future. And when you're, it kind of, I remember feeling like I'd been picked up and like dropped out of my reality and into a different one. You know,

when you watch a nature show and like a giant bird picks up a fish and then drops it. You're such, you're our outdoors woman, Sophia. I love the best where you went. When I was fly fishing in Montana, I saw. Yeah, I was like, I felt like a fish that it. had been grabbed by an eagle and I was no longer in a river. I was dying in the rocks. Perfect description. Right? Yeah. Suddenly you're like where, I don't know how to even get back to where I was. Like, where was I? Where am I now? And it does matter so much when you can't feel it to have somebody look at you and say, let me tell you what is true because you will come back to this even if you can't be here now. And Whitey does that.

for Lucas, he serves as that tether to, I don't want to say the real world, but to the connected world. And I thought it was really beautiful, you know, to zoom out a little bit. Our show was amazing in a lot of ways, but we certainly failed in terms of accurately representing the diversity or experience of a place like North Carolina. Oh, dude. Yeah. And it was gorgeous to have white. tell a story that felt so true, you know, Barry at his age, having lived through the civil rights movement and, you know, all of these big historical things that we often on the show would just ignore, our historical truths, to have him tell a story that is so representative

of the fact that it is often sports, art, music. that breaks barriers, that welcomes people in first, however imperfectly. You know, those are often the arenas where people have been welcomed first. And it, I was just really, I was really happy to see that we did that. It was a conversation that did kind of feel out of the blue. But when we consider what was going on in North Carolina, Carolina at the time we were filming this, there was going on. Well, so in Wilmington specifically, during the civil rights movement, there was like,

there were huge race riots in Wilmington in like the 60s, right? And there was a group called the Wilmington 10. They had tried to integrate the schools. And I would encourage anyone to do a deep dive on. this history because it really is astounding. But Wilmington 10 sent to prison. They were accused of, you know, inciting violence and all these things when really they were fighting for the freedom of their community.

And while we were filming, the governor we had at the time, Bev Perdue, finally officially pardoned them. You know, they'd been living with like these felonies. And it was also the time period where the, um, the, um, the, 1898 massacre was still being called like the race war. So that difference, it wasn't a race war. No, the language makes such a difference. The language makes a huge difference. And it was when the memorial for that was going up in Wilmington. So while we were filming our show, it was the first time Wilmington was really kind of reckoning with their own history. And we were surrounded by that.

And it was very new. And everyone was very kind of trepidious about like, what's the new language? What do we say? How do we acknowledge this? You know? Because it is hard to call your parents or your grandparents or just the generations before you on the carpet and be like, hey, you guys f*** that. But it's an important thing to do. And so we were living in Wilmington during a really interesting time in their history. So this conversation feels very, you know, relevant. If anyone hasn't been on the Wilmington in color tour, there's an amazing tour that takes you all over Wilmington on a bus and shows you all these amazing historic sites that were ignored right up until when we were shooting our show and people started finally paying attention. That's great. I didn't know they were doing that. Yeah, it's really cool. I love that. Will you guys recount a little bit about that conversation that Whitey has with Lucas, not just for our listeners, but also for me a bit because I went downstairs to make a cup of coffee. And I had somebody in the house who was talking to me and I was trying to

listen to the episode, but also. And I really want to be a part of the conversation that we're having, but I missed it. Yeah. So, so, you know, Whitey, when Lucas says, tell me why this game is important, tells the story of how he got his nickname and talks about being a young boy on a high school team that was called the best team in town, but they knew there was a better team. And it's the team whose gym they're playing in that faded logo of the monarchs as the story goes the monarchs were in tree hill you know lore per our writers the black basketball team and the black players and white players were kept completely segregated and were not allowed to play each other and they hosted a game they essentially like you know went outside of the schedule and and

and hosted a game and played and, oh, I have chills thinking about it. And so there's Barry Corbin as Whitey looking at Lucas, talking about how he grew up and what the history was and that they decided, you know, both teams to cross this barrier and play. And that the coach of the other team looked Barry in the eye and said, I'll take Whitey. And he said, that's how I got my nickname. Wow. And I thought about it, hearing him say it, you know, today watching the episode, because do you all remember there was a diner in Wilmington called Whitey?

Yes. And I know. The lore was that that's where Michael Jordan used to, like, bust tables when he was in high school. Yep. So it all feels like, given the fact that the truth was being told finally about the history, that that demands to call it what it was, a race massacre, not to call it a riot. You know, like we said, language matters. And even that, you know, the stories we grew up in Wilmington hearing about Michael Jordan

and where he worked and where he played and all those things, it feels like they figured out a way to, obviously, in our fictional story, bring in some things that could make it all make sense for people. So how does that connect with the Lucas is saying, why does this all matter? So essentially what Barry, Barry, what Whitey is saying to Lucas is this is how much basketball matters. We were a segregated state and we played together. And he says to him, you know, that night we weren't white players or black players. We were basketball players.

Yeah. And when I think about, you know, what, as I was saying earlier, what sports, sports music, what we do, you know, acting has meant when you think about the legacy of Jackie Robinson, when you think about, you know, blues players traveling around America during segregated times, when you think about what it meant for, you know, Sydney Poitier to become Sidney Poitier. Like, it is, it has often been in sports and creative industries where we have pushed boundaries. And again, you know, there's a lot of imperfection there. it felt so impactful to watch an adult, say to a kid, this game that you're trying to reconcile

with can be the thing that moves culture. It can heal history. You know that? You can be a part of something that's bigger than just showing up and playing a game. It's not just a game. Yeah. And Whitey says to Lucas, let the game. game heal you. Well, that's the perspective that I liked because it's age giving advice. You know, it's the kid who is playing the game, Whitey, at 17 years old, getting that nickname, hanging out in the gym, doesn't know that he's doing something that will matter a lot to him as an old man. He's just playing basketball with a bunch of dudes. And then it's as an old man, he's like, that meant a lot. It meant so much. And so for Lucas,

you know, it's it's that advice of just put one foot in front of another and the truth will reveal itself to you in time. The healing will reveal itself to you in time. You just have to go through the motions right now. Just do that and the story will unfold later. Yeah. I love that. That's so, that's such an intrinsic part of healing from grief is just putting one foot in front of the other. And we watch Karen do that in this episode as well, she's finding her way, how do I, even just the action of slapping Whitey when he comes in and he says, whose fault is that that you didn't have Keith for longer than five minutes? It's an action.

It's like forcing her to do something instead of wander around in her robe and with the clothes all over the apartment and not being there for Lucas and not being there. And I'm not trying to shame Karen's character in any way, but that behavior is very normal for grief. Probably super necessary, actually. But at some point, you have to step out of it. And I love that he gets to be that voice of reason and love and uplifting and just like, I'm going to force you out of your comfort zone because you have to just keep moving.

And he wouldn't have known that if he hadn't had the life experience of doing that when he was a young man. And isn't it funny how the things that we do when we're young that seem like the hardest choices that we have to make, the things that we do that we think this is impossible. And then years later, it actually ends up being something that has the most impact on other people in our lives and communities because we were able to trailblaze in one area or another. I mean, I've had people in my life who went through things in their youth that trailblazed for me. So it's a huge blessing to be able to have the weight of grief and carry.

carry yourself and other people through that. Karen's saying, I'm going to need some help. Dude, that was the one that got me. I'm going to cry right now. You're just repeating it. Dude, I felt it in my bones. And then looking at each other, that moment, those two women seeing each other, I'm going to need a lot of help.

Good, you're going to get it. Oh, God. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. It reminded me of running into your, the both of your arms after Willie Garson died because it was just a couple days after that we did our Drama Queen's live stream. And Soap had brought me flowers and Joy had brought me honey. And like, you know, it's difficult for me to admit that I need help.

And so I love seeing that female friendship in our show. I love it. It matters. It matters that we help other women value that. There's so many opportunities to be combative. We see it with Brooke and Rachel in this episode. And so to see the good, soft stuff is so important. Go hug your girlfriends.

Yeah. Well, and I think it's also, it's modeling that learning, you know, because something the three of us have in common is we really like to help the people we love and we're all not great at asking for help for ourselves. Never. Never. Ever. Oh my gosh. I like that our love language is, I know you're not going to ask me for this, but here's the, you know, whether it's a coffee or flowers or a random hour text message or whatever, like, and it's those acts of love that I think.

think have allowed us to become the friends who can look at each other and say, I do need this. Can you help me here? Will you talk to me now? Whatever it might be. And I love seeing that Deb just says, I'm going to do it. And whenever she's ready, I'm going to be here. And finally, at the end of the episode, Karen comes in and essentially says, I'm ready now. That is a whole love language.

It's clear that Deb just got through, like, her boozy therapy or whatever she's been doing because she understands, like, she looks fantastic. She looks amazing. But she also knows, like, you can scream at me. I'm not going anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard.

It's so hard to ask for help. Even in grief when it's like, of course, it's the most obvious or in injury. Guys, I just, I fell through a hole. what what i'm i met it's a long story but i really jacked up my foot it looks like i went put my foot through a joy garbage disposal like it's all sliced up where did you fall through a hole in my house it's it's maybe do we need to piggyback you around your house listen my point is i'm i've really messed up my foot and i had to travel three airports in two days um two days after afterward and it was really deep cuts like the kind of cut that like when they get on medical

show when they slice open you can like open up the skin and see down into the muscle it was like deep but I and I should have gotten stitches but I didn't because it was eight o'clock at night and I was like I'm not like I don't want to ask for help I'm fine put a band-aid on it duct tape fine yeah give me some super glue I'm fine um and it was healing but you know gingerly and so I had to I had to travel through these three airports with assistance. And it was really hard for me to just, like, I, I just want to do things myself. I don't want to inconvenience anyone. I don't want anybody to feel like I'm, I don't know.

It's a pride thing. Like, I want to prove that I can do things myself all the time. Like, what is that? Well, it's a girl thing, you know, where it's like, it's a mom thing, I guess. Don't be a baby. Don't be a sissy girl. Be a tough girl. Maybe that's it.

It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose of years. you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball.

Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture. into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I also think it can be a bit of a reaction to what we do for a living. We show up where people tell us to when they tell us to. We say what they tell us to. We eat when they say we can.

We pee when they tell us there's enough of a break to like make it all the way to the bathroom and all the way back. There is very little autonomy. Yeah. Don't plan a vacation because you can't go on it if they say you can't go. Oh, I'm sorry, you can't go to the dentist until we wrap for the season. Are you sick? Sorry, like there's no time for you to go to normal business hours. And so I think there's really something to the, especially for independent people, like the three of us, to like, I can do it. I can do all of it. I got it. Don't touch it. Leave me alone. I I'm fine. I think we crave being able to do things ourselves because so much of our work, life is so far outside of our control.

So it can make, I mean, you, I mean, the collective view, but certainly me, hi, I'm raising my hand at this whatever anonymous meeting we're at. Like, I'm like, I got it, don't touch it. And sometimes people I love are like, are you okay? Why are you doing that? I'm like, I'm sorry. That is so interesting. So we've developed control issues because of the circumstance of our job. That is so interesting because that makes me think of when I'm upset, you know how much actors hate a line reading?

When anybody interfere. I don't generally, I've kind of gotten over it. At this point, I'm like, yeah, just tell me how you want me to say it. I just want to go home. I'll make it my own. Yeah, exactly. I just want to go home. Everybody wants to go home.

Just tell me what to do. But especially when you're young. you're finding your way and your artist's voice and you just want to yeah when somebody else tells you how to do and i used to get so worked up about it it was like don't tell me where to stand don't tell me how to say it i'm going to do it my way because it was the only space that i had to just be free so i was very protective over my free spaces and i think that is really interesting that may be why i think it's a big thing i had a light bulb moment sophia thank you anytime I've I've thought about this a lot and and it is really interesting right like the fact that

nothing in your life when you are on set can you not only can you control can you have any input on at all except your work I mean you when the cameras start rolling sure then you're free when the curtain goes up you're free yes but I just mean the circumstances of your life like You cannot make a decision about when to leave your home. Somebody's there telling you where you live. Like, it's all, so much of it is dictated for us. And so I think it's why we can be very territorial or protective about our autonomy because there's just not a lot of avenues for it.

Is that every job, though? Like if you work, if you're an accountant, if you work a desk job, and you're, like, labeling blood samples at the medical, whatever facility. Like, don't you still have to, you have hours, you have to show up. You have to, you know, sometimes your job is location specific. You still have to, I don't know, there's lunch breaks. Yeah, but Joy, all these young kids are quiet quitting now. You know, like the youngsters aren't following those rules anymore.

God bless them. They're just like, we quit. We're done. No. All those rules that you like Gen X millennials follow, don't be ridiculous. Yeah, it's interesting. I have like one person who's not in our industry that I get to talk to about this. One of my best friend's sisters works in a corporate job where every year she has to move because of the track she's on for training because she's going to have like a very high-powered

important job soon. And she's like, oh my God, I have no one I can vent to about this. I'm like, well, you need more actor friends, babe. Because we'll go to a meeting and it's like, okay, well, in six days, you're moving to Canada. And you have to figure it out. That's right. You know, so yes, of course, everybody has parameters, but not everybody's parameters are as bat-shick crazy as hard industry. Well, and I think it's why.

No, you're moving there. Exactly. It's like, you're going. Sorry. Oh, for the next six weeks, you're just going to be awake only at night. Good luck to you. Like, I don't know. It just is what it is.

Okay. Well, I also think some of the aspect of the control is, is that when you are on set and someone is brushing your hair and someone was doing your makeup and someone is putting clothes on you and maneuvering those clothes in between every take

so that it matches the take before and you're being handled all the time. It can be I say emasculating but for women too. I know what you mean. It takes your power away

and it makes you feel prissy and like a baby. You know? and I want so badly to prove that I can do it all. I can do it all. So on my show that I do for Sundance, there's no hair and makeup team. There's nobody that's like holding cue cards for me.

Like, I was just like, I can do it all myself. And I look terrible. And I am wearing awful clothes that are right out of my closet, and I fucking love it because I did it myself. And so it's like a kindergartner that's like, no, I can dress myself. I realize that I'm my four-year-old daughter. That's like, what was that character on Mad TV, Stuart?

I can do it. I can do it. Do you remember that? Yeah. Well, speaking of, like, evolving as a human, we have to address the Rachel's storyline because it's an evolutionary thing that I feel very conflicted about. It's conflicting because of the BTS on our show. It's not, like, I appreciate that any... I mean, I'm always conflicted about somebody who wants to change who they are because it's who you are.

But if you, I also appreciate that, like, if a girl's like, I don't know, she wants to get a nose job, get a nose job. If it makes you feel better about yourself, like, I don't know. I mean, Joy, I agree. It's the context of what's going on behind the scenes and knowing the whole thing with our boss and, like, the way, like, that's kind of, I think, where the conflict for me mostly lies. Did it have to be a weight thing? Like, what if Rachel had, like, a big mole removed? Or what if she had, like, teeth that she didn't like. Or, like, it just always boiled down to weight with our boss.

And it's such a cheap card to play, and it's inappropriate. And it could have been handled in such a beautiful way where you see a girl who actually looks great and healthy and fine. and she has this, I'm spitballing, I don't know, I mean, maybe I'll go off track, I hope I won't, but, you know, if she goes, you know, we see DeNeil, who's beautiful and, you know, has this amazing health about her as well, but who talks about, like, why did I, the way that I saw myself in the mirror, I went through all of this transformation, I went through so much pain because I didn't accept who I was. I didn't love who I was. And so I tried to love myself by changing myself in all these ways instead of just loving who I am. I feel like that would

be such an interesting journey to watch. I think it would be really interesting for someone to say, oh, I thought if I changed myself physically, I'd feel different. I feel the same. I just look different. That's what I'm, that's exactly. You know, like that, I've heard people say that. Whether it's about, by the way, something cosmetic or even, like, I colored my hair and I, you know, cut it all off and I did it. And, like, I don't feel any different. When people move, sometimes they say that. You know, I thought if I moved to X, I would feel different. And it turns out, like, when you take everything in your house, there you are. Yeah, there you are. You take your belongings and you take your problems. Like, congratulations. Here's your bags. Don't forget them. I think what bothered me about... This, again, we're supposed to be 16. You know, we were all in our mid-20s. But the paintbrush that that man sort of used to paint this storyline, the things that they're talking about, gastric bypass, you know, implants, a nose job, and a bunch of other surgeries, she says. Like, these are massive, massive procedures that.

carry life-threatening risk and and they they talked about them as ignorantly and casually as you know Lindsey Graham talks about pregnancy like pregnancy is a miracle if you want to be a parent it is what an unbelievable thing like you guys gave birth to some of my favorite humans they they are human beings that are on the planet that didn't exist before you made them like hello it's a miracle what drives me crazy is when men talk about pregnancy like it's just a casual stroll to the grocery store. And I'm like, do you want to know the number one cause of aortic dissection in women under 40?

Like where literally the largest artery in your body just explodes? Pregnancy. Yeah. So let's be clear that the miracle comes with danger. I don't like when we treat like massive things that women go through as casual. And so this irks me in the same way. Yes, because the way we see ourselves in the mirror is a big thing. Yeah, I'm like, she didn't color her hair.

You're saying she, like, opened up and cut up her body and broke her own bones. And you're acting like she went to the mall and bought a pair of shoes. Yeah. And she's supposed to be 16. Like, can we have a second to your point, Joy, like, have a deeper conversation about what society has done to us as girls and women to make us, no matter what we look like, feel like the way we look is wrong. Well, if you notice, mouth's whole, like, diatribe is I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, and Lee, God bless him, sold it. I mean, Lee did a great job with the subject matter, but rather than focus on the girl who has traumatized herself physically and mentally, it's all about, I could have loved that girl. I, I, I, I think you're great.

I feel this way. Maybe now that you actually were a nerd or are still a nerd deep inside, you'll like me, too. Yeah. It's all about him. Which is how it's so basically the behind the scenes that pisses us off is basically what our boss was saying is I'm mouth. I'm going to speak through mouth. I don't need you to be hot because I know what a, you know, like average girl you are inside. and I'll love you even though you are average.

And my validation should make you like yourself. Ew. Ew, ew, you guys. Like, skin crawl. By the way, I would have thought an effective storyline was to see Rachel, like, not that different, but she thinks the picture's terrible. Like, oh, my God, I can't. That's what I'm saying, you know? Yes, yes.

Like, it's all in her head. That's what I'm saying, because what you see, you know, when you end up with an eating disorder, or what you see in the mirror is completely different than what is actually there. It's totally warped. And that would have been interesting to see her mortified by an old photo that doesn't look that different.

And to understand that that's what body dysmorphia is. Right, right. Oh, my God. Where's the woman? Where's the woman in the room? Yeah. God. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Well, anyway, that said. I love watching, like, teen shows, now because this dumb body stuff is just so different. Like, I love, I love how different it is for our kids, you know? It's just a much different conversation. So bravo to the youngsters. You know, it's great that it's great that it's a really an awareness conversation for girls now, too, that, you know, I think when we were younger, it was easy for, it was like, oh, don't eat that, you'll get fat.

It was just said and nobody, you know what I mean? And you're like, oh, okay. And we were reading all those teen magazines, and it was all about the language, again, the language was just so unhelpful. It was very black and white. It was. Yeah. Very lucky. Of course, there's a concern.

And I have my own child and we've gone through our own journey of trying to figure out the healthy ways to eat. And, you know, Hill, I know you've got healthy ways to eat and things going on in your house too with your kids. And for girls, because I'm raising a girl, it's become really important that those conversations, especially during the pandemic, we're all sitting around. We were sitting around and getting fat. It was happening. There was like extra fat on our bodies that we didn't need and that was killing our energy. And to be able to like communicate to her, let's get strong.

Let's get healthy. Let's have more energy. It has nothing to do with whether you look at what. what you look like. It has to do with how you feel and how your energy is on the inside. And I think it's also, I can't imagine what it would have been like to be in the moment we're in now when we were making our show where it's like, also what is your body? Because bodies are built different. That's right. Like, you know, it's something that I actually think is very cool. You know, she's a supermodel, but Emily Ratatowski talks a lot about

this about what people think of her body and the way people think they own her body because her body is part of her work. Yeah. And she, you know, I read this thing where she talked about how she casts for her swimwear campaigns. And she's like, no, I know what my body is. It's part of my job. Also, I was just born like this. But she casts women. And like, there'll be women with 10 drastically different body types, like thin women and big women and they're all wearing the same bikini. And I'm like, thank you. Yes. Because all we were ever shown. Yeah, all we were ever shown was like the Roxy models. Kate Moss. Like it was one kind of body. And now it's like, no, if you want to wear this bathing suit, put it on your body and then it's a bathing suit for

your body. You're welcome. I love, I love that we're finally. And look, I'm not going to pretend the beauty industry isn't like a toxic mess. But I just love that we're finally seeing people just be who they are. Yeah. We've managed, I mean, in my house, we, through that period of suddenly becoming aware of our health, how food affects our body and our energy levels and our strength, we've managed to sidestep the whole body dysmorphia issue that we were just talking about where she just has no awareness of it. She's just like happy and chill and like, you know, when we talk about eating, she's like, I don't really want those carbs. And I'm like, why? She's like, cause they slow me down. I don't feel good when I eat them. I want them in the

morning. I want a good fat. Like, give me an avocado. It's because it's all about the ingredients, the health, the energy. It's not about what I look like at all. You want those first conversations to be with you and not some kid at school. Because I'm not a magazine. I'm dealing. Gus's friends, for whatever reason, I have become a mom that other children text. And I take it, I'm the mom, like, Jeffrey and I are both getting text messages from Gus's friends at, like, odd hours. Really? And I love it.

But it's, it makes me nervous because I'm like, am I giving good advice to these kids? And I found out that there's a pack of girls at Gus's school who count their calories at lunch. And if you eat more than, like, 100 calories, you know, like, it's like this whole thing. And so I've got to come in there and be like, some moms are really tender with it, and they're like, hey, this is bad, this is, you know, we don't do this. And I am more of a hammer, and I'm just like, that's bullshit. I don't like it.

You tell the other girls I said it's bullshit. You know, like, I don't know how to handle it necessarily other than to be, like, angry about it. But it's happening right now with our kids, and you want their first conversations about that to be with a grown-up that they trust. Rachel having to talk about it with mouth and make light of it so as to kind of be like, it's fine. I like myself. This is who I am. I didn't like that he kept being like, you don't like yourself. You don't like yourself. I know you don't like yourself. I see through you. Yeah.

Bug me. It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence.

That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It was also creepy to me. And you said it, you know, this was a storyline in this episode where our boss was trying to talk to a girl he had a crush on and doing it through another character. And it was gross. And it was, it was a heavy episode for that influence because he also cast himself as Pete Wentz's manager to talk to you on the phone. Yeah. Hearing his voice like, you guys, I started sweating.

Yeah. I got, like, nauseous. I haven't had to hear that voice in a long time. Honestly, like, like, 10 years I haven't heard that voice. Yeah, that was gross. And that was just... It was gross. And it's like, you're a 45-year-old dude who's married.

So sorry to her, but, you know, what are you doing? Like, why are you doing this with a bunch of 20-year-old kids that you employ? Like, the show... It's like... It's like... Any other show... Yeah. It's like, you know...

But any other show, it's fine. It's, you know, creators do make cameos all the time in shows. It's not a big deal. It's just the context for us. Sorry. Maybe I said the quiet part out loud. No, that is my point, though. It's like the context that's throwing us off here.

Yeah, it's yucky. It does not hold up. What else happened in this episode? Hold on. I'm trying to think because Moira did such a nice job directing. I loved that scene in the gym where the slow-mo stuff is so nice. Slow-mo basketball. Who knew? It was gorgeous.

In that old gym, it was so vintage-looking and just magical. And like that beautiful shot, she did this amazing shot of Nathan coming down the court to make that basket. And then it cut to Lucas walking out of the gym, but they were basically walking the same path. But like, Nathan was still on the court and Lucas was walking out, but they were in a line. That was beautiful. Very cool. That must have been so hard to shoot. Like, yeah, to have those double doors open wide up and to be calling action on the inside and have Chad on the outside.

And, you know, I like the ambitious shots that Moira had. Yeah, me too. Well, and you know we had guys on the crew with like fishing line pulling those doors open. Yeah, too. Once Chad walked out of them, like they just kept opening and like that was fully a nice little sneak. I also want to talk about Larry's dad moment. Oh, thank you. It was so good.

You guys, literally my post-it says Larry is the best dad. I love being parented. I love it so much. I forced myself to go get a facial the other day and this older woman called me my darling and my sweet girl the whole time. And you guys, she had to wipe the tears out of my eyes

because I was just like, okay, thank you. So this energy, this Larry energy, like I wish we'd had it all the time. Because the response of Peyton and Brooke is like, perfect. We've seen these kids doing all this grown-up shit. We're going to bars. We're going to sun-kiss parties. We're drinking.

We're, you know, hooking up the rock stars, whatever. Yeah. And then all of a sudden we're kids again. It just brings it right back down to Earth. And we needed more of it. Yeah, we're getting curfews. And we're getting some instruction. he's talking about what kind of man would be good enough for his daughter for these girls

what you should be looking for you know when when when you guys have that final scene and he says he wants you to pick someone because of what he is not what he does oh it's it's beautiful and and it is the parenting that's been missing yeah that's that's that's What's what got me. It was, that's what's been missing because Karen hasn't been able to parent. Barbara's been gone. Keith has always been that voice, that parenting voice and reason. And now there's a void.

There's a void. And we needed that. I was like thirsty for it and I didn't know it until he said, listen, here's the rules. This is how it's going to go. And by the way, kids hate boundaries. Geez. Chef's kiss, him walking over and opening the closet door and saying, Brooke, you need to find another hot dad fantasy and then walking out of the room. Dude, I was embarrassed for Brooke. I would have to do.

Oh, my goodness. It's so embarrassing. I was like turning red. By the way, I turned red, but I also was like, Larry, you're still hot. Yeah, he's so hot. I'm watching you be hot right now. I don't know what else to say about it. You know, spoiler for the end of the episode, it all.

You know, he gives all those, like, fabulous speeches. And he's like, love a guy for the man he is, right? And it's just like, okay, daddy, you know, like, you can tell that Peyton has a dad thing because the next closest thing to her dad is Jake Jigelsky. Like, they look alike. They are girl dads. Like, it's that dad. It's a Greek tragedy.

But it was no contest. It was like, yeah, why am I going to go fly to hang out with some rock star who by, me a ticket and expects me a high schooler to get on a plane and come hang out and wait for him backstage with his groupies. I mean, that's what I would have gotten out of it. Why would I do that when there's a perfectly good, exactly who my dad is talking about, man waiting for me? Yeah. And I think it's Larry's speech about who you want to be with and what kind of relationship you want to be in and what really makes it worth it

that makes Peyton admit to herself I'm just trying to move on from Jake. Why don't I just go get Jake? Yeah, he respects her. Jake's always respected Peyton. You know, it's like, oh, you like someone else? Okay, cool. I'll back off.

But she's like, if I'm about to get on a plane, if I'm actually willing to get on a plane for a guy, who's the guy I'm willing to get on a plane for? Like, obviously. how screwed up was it though that she took the Pete Wentz ticket and went to hook up with a different dude I love it did she wait I missed that no she totally takes like Pete leaves her a ticket at the airport and she just you know transfers a plane somewhere else yeah that's that's such a high school girl move right oops I like it I love it dude don't get me in trouble is my thing it's like dude yeah like don't get me in

trouble. That means that you don't respect me. You don't respect my dad. Like Pete should have called dad and been like, hey, there's going to be a chaperone the whole time. And you can come to if you want to, Mr. Sawyer. Don't pull up to the house in a limo one in the morning or whatever. Come on. Yeah. Come on. Poor Pete. Did anything else happen in this episode? Yeah, there was something, oh, I'm forgetting right now. There was a thing. Nathan and Haley didn't really do anything. They laid in bed and your little relationship. Oh, I know. It's the Rachel line about her age with Cooper. That was going to have a Cooper.

Cooper says I'm dating this 26-year-old model. She's back from New York, house sitting for her family. And then it's Rachel. Dun, don't, don't. Boom, bum, bum. I loved them together. They had great chemistry. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and also, I feel really cheated that we didn't get Cooper in the later years for Brooke to hook up with because that would have just complicated the whole. whole Rachel, Brooke, Cooper love triangle. It would have been so fun. Oh, God. It would have been so fun. I was robbed.

I was robbed. I was never going to let it go. Ever. Ever. Oh, my God. He's so cool, but he also has to sit down and have an after-school special. Honestly, Brooke got robbed of Cooper and Mouth. Yeah.

Yeah. Interesting. Come on. they took all your toys and gave them to rachel are you a little bit upset about that are you just i mean i'm mostly upset that they wanted me and daniel to fight all the time because we had so much fun together but you know coulda whata shoulda those are my what ifs okay rachel cooper mouth those are brooks what ifs god yeah man damn i definitely lied about my age when i met Jeffrey. So there's a part of me that sympathizes. You did? I told him I was 30 because I was never

going to see him again. I was like, whatever. All right. See you later, boss. And so then when we were together for a couple months and it was my birthday, Nick, my best friend, who you guys know from Wilmington, was like, 27 Club. And Jeff's like, okay, real funny. What are you going to be 27 forever? And I was like, oh, no, I messed up. I'm 27 for real. Which is majorly different than lying and saying you're 26 when you're 17. 16, yeah. Yeah. A little different, but, you know, Rachel's Rachel.

Rachel's going to Rachel. She's going to do all the bad girl stuff. I'm glad we have a bad girl. Yeah, what else did happen? I don't know. I can't think of anything else. Well, you know, what is interesting, and I thought that Lee did such a beautiful job with this, we are in this brook and rachel conflict thing and and you know this terrible writing with these

photos trying to i just that bothered me so much i i still get that nauseous feeling that i had when i read it and i was like i don't want to do this i don't want to be you know this girl bullying another girl i think that this is horrible but you know we don't have control over this commit to the material and you got to commit and it really hit me when When Mouth yells at Brooke and says, did you learn nothing from Jimmy's death? You know, this idea that we have to be kinder to each other. And there is really something, I think, when you're young and someone has hurt you or betrayed you, where you want to get back at them. It's a sport.

And for Mouth to say, like, we're supposed to have learned. We're supposed to, I know she's done all this terrible shit to you. It doesn't matter. We're supposed to have learned to not be like this to each other. And, you know, I thought that that was beautiful. And for as much as the writing he was given in those scenes with her was very flawed, it definitely makes it so sad when he shows up at her house at the end and Brooks right. It's just like, it hit me for mouth.

Brooks definitely right. I mean, it was not lost on me that what was going on behind the scenes. scenes was, you know, Dineal had started dating her husband, like this super hot dude, super hot dude that everyone had a crush on. And our boss was like, I'll be the guy that brings your flowers

and you'll reject me and everyone's going to be on my side. You're going to look like a real asshole for not picking me. And then we were like, no, that's not actually that's going to go for you at all. We love her hot boyfriend. He's fabulous. Yeah. I know, and I know that you didn't like that Brooke went down that road

for this episode, but I like it for Brooke for the sake of character consistency that she lives out loud. She lives messy. And that's how we learn and grow. No one is perfect. You have to make those kinds of mistakes that are hard and embarrassing and you look back on and you cringe. I mean, I have so many moments like that in my life. But I wouldn't have grown if I didn't make stupid mistakes and hurt people's feelings and like do dumb shit. Well, and if people who love you, it's important, it's like we all need the mouth in our life that's like you're being an asshole yeah you know you're taking it too far yeah yeah because sometimes you need somebody to look at you and say i get that you're in pain that doesn't mean you should put your pain on other people and we we need that and and yeah joy you're right it's i think some of the things that were so

gringy to me that Brooke had to do were also really important for her to do because it's not just that we need people to model good things for us. We need people to model bad things for us so that we don't do those things. Yeah, that's right, especially people that we love, characters that we love, who we can see them have flaws just like us. So it's like, okay, I love her and she messes up. I can love myself because I mess up, but it's all right in the end, you know. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer, because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional.

It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls, became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball.

Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Let's do a listener question. What do we got? We have one here that says it's from Anne.

Hi, Anne. Oh, this is funny because I said this when it came on. I said, oh, it's nice to hear Gavin's voice again. She asks, when you hear Gavin DeGra's song, I don't want to be, which wasn't, what I was talking about in this episode was a different song that he had. Anyway, she said, what is your relationship? to the song. How do you feel when the song suddenly comes on the radio? Do you get emotional, happy, sad? I want to turn it off immediately. Do you really? I do. I'm just like,

I don't want to think about it. It is like the number one grocery store song. Like a number one, babe. I get immediately embarrassed. I feel like they're poking us. Like when we're going. Yeah. When it comes on, you're like, is this happening on purpose? What's going on? Who's up there? Who's up there in, like, the grocery store office looking through that two-way mirror? The One Tree Hill cast members have landed, play the song. No, listen, so I was driving Gus to school the other day, and there's that Pop 2K, serious radio station. And they're talking about how they're going to start, like, playing soundtracks from the 2000s. And they list, like, 10 things I hate about you.

Or from the late 90s, 2000s, they're listing all these movies that I'm like, oh, yeah, cool. that slaps cool yeah i'm into this and then they said one tree hill and they were like our favorite soundtracks and you know you hear like a little gavin de grail sound clip i was like guys we made it we made the cool kid soundtrack we made it dumb i like it it's funny i can't imagine it being sad it's definitely context dependent but sometimes i'm like oh that's usually how i feel is a little like, aw, cutie. Yeah. I feel that too, but then I want to turn it off.

I'm like, aw, but I don't want to listen to the whole thing. It's like when stars go blue comes on. It's like, oh, okay, turn it off. Yeah, I get that. I think if I'm, like if someone sends me a funny, I feel like we send these to each other all the time, like a, you know, some Instagram reel or like a TikTok or something and the song is on it and it's hilarious. Like, I can't get enough of it.

I think it's amazing. Oh, yeah. If we're in public, i.e. the grocery store immediately, I'm like, is anyone waiting for me? Like, if I see someone looking at me when the song comes on in public, then I'm mortified. Because I'm like, I don't know what reaction you want for me, and I'm not going to give you the one you want because I can't read your mind. And I have to disappear now into the hole in the floor that I'm going to will to appear for my exit. What if, for arguments sake, from this moment on, we do the exact opposite?

Like, what if from now on we start? What do you want to do? Just air guitar? Like a flash where we are just marching up and down the aisles of the grocery store singing it loud bringing in everyone else i feel like we should just go big or go home at this point like yeah you know the words sing with me what would people do can you imagine oh my god but can you imagine any other show like the actor like hearing their theme song in the grocery store and being And like, oh my God, I love this song. This is my jam. Yeah, we have to have a better sense of humor about ourselves, ladies.

All right. All right. From here on out, I'm going to whip out. We're going to go Instagram live next time we hear. That's what I was just going to say. That's it. Instagram live immediately, no matter what. I'm going to grocery store and they're playing our song. It's happening.

We maybe have set ourselves up for failure right now. Somebody spin a wheel. And I did. A wheel of fortune. most likely to save you from a bad blind date either of you girls honestly you'd both be really good at it in totally different ways i've done it oh yeah yes i feel like i i probably i mean no offense Hillary i probably would call sophia she's better she's a better liar yeah i just like you know what it is for me

like don't ask me to help you plan a surprise party, I'll screw it up. But if I can help, like, that's camp counselor mode for me. I'm like, how are you doing? What time is it? Let's make a plan. I'll set an alarm on my phone. This is what I'm going to text you. And if you answer this way, I know you're happy. And if you answer this way, I know it's going badly. And then what I'm going to do is it's like a choose your own adventure book that we're writing in real time. Like, what is more fun than that? I'm just going to text you BBD and the name of the restaurant or whatever it is. That's it. I feel like you would have, like, a helicopter with a rope ladder, like, within, like, you know, 14 minutes.

The restaurant's going to bring me a phone, a rotary phone to the table and be like, you've got a call. You have a call, ma'am, on the landline? Oh, my God, yes. Yeah, it's probably also... I mean, it's probably also a Brooke Davis skill set. Yeah. Although, like, Antoine is... Oh, good call.

Yeah, I mean, Antoine put me in my very first Uber ever, and that blew my mind. It was, like, years ago in Paris, and he was like, we have to get you out of this situation. And he was like, I'm going to order a car on my phone with this newfangled thing called Uber. And I was like, what are you talking about? You're like, am I going to get home alive? Yeah. I don't know. But he just, like, it had gotten overwhelming where we were.

And next thing you know, I'm, like, safely tucked into my room and Antoine handled it. I love Antoine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you can count on him. Yeah, he's definitely a person that you know you can call. He's ready. Yeah.

That's it. All right, guys, I feel like this was a good episode. I'm glad we sorted out all the after school special moments in this episode. Yeah, me too. I liked it. Next episode, season three, episode 20, every day is a Sunday evening. Ooh. I have no idea what's coming.

Do you? Hopefully it means a little Jake Jigelsky on my Sunday. You know what I'm sorry about. Yeah. Yeah, we're going to have Jake. We're going to have a little wedding prep. Yeah. Maybe some, maybe some Brooke and Haley.

I want to design your wedding dress more. Yeah. Oh, my God. Don't I put you in a dress with like a terrible maleficent collar at some point? Or did I do that already? I feel like maybe you did you do it? No, because it was just it was a surprise. Oh, yeah.

Because I was like, we got married. Okay. Maybe this is it. It's coming up. We're going to have some amusing fashion. Maleficent collar. Now I wish I had those cheekbones. That's my next Halloween costume.

I'll mix Maleficent and Haley. All right. I love you guys. We'll see you next week. See you next week. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's O-T-H.

Or email us at Dramaquins at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl, cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you're tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive.

My name is Nicole Garcia and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.