Drama Queens - The Feelings Behind the Finale • EP 822

Episode Date: July 14, 2025

If this episode felt like the end, that’s because it ALMOST WAS! Sophia and Joy share behind-the-scenes drama, suppressed feelings, and the unspoken code of conduct they were expected to follow. Hear why the future of the show was on shaky ground, the toll it took on the cast, and what it’s like to finally unpack the pleasure and the pain of growing up on TV.   Plus, a SURPRISE ANNOUNCEMENT from your Drama Queens that you don't want to miss!    Tickets available at: https://www.othmerch.com/eventsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Oh, friends, we've got a big announcement. This is so exciting. I feel like we've gone too long without really dishing any hot goss. And I feel like we owe it to the listeners today to just break them off a juicy piece of goss. I love it. Served piping hot. Who wants to be the one to open this gift? Go on, Sophia.

I see your excited smile. I was about to be like we all look so excited about it. Guys, really, not only has it been too long since we had, as Rob said, hot goss for you, but we feel like it's been too long since we've all been on stage with you. So. We've made. We made some very exciting plans, and we hope that you'll all make those plans with us. We're going to be in Wilmington at Trick.

And we will be performing a three-person production of the Emperor's New Clothes. It'll be four hours of very confusing acting. No, what we'd be doing there? We will be recording our finale episode live with all of you. I know. Guys, it makes me emotional. You said finale and my heart like broke. That's the bitter part.

The sweet part is that we get to share it with all the fans. Yeah. That's true. That's true. That's what makes it so special. We love you guys. We love all the support that you brought to us over the years, not just for Drama Queens, but Winter Hill in general.

I mean, you've been with us on this ride for so long. So we really want to celebrate the end of this part. of Drama Queen's with you, and we just hope that you'll come out. So we have some more details here. Yes, we will be there. Thanks to our friends who organize the most wonderful conventions that let us all come home. We will be doing a live show at the next convention on Saturday, November 1st. It'll be at 7 p.m. And as Joy mentioned, we're doing this at Trick. Feels correct. Listen, and it starts at 7. Who knows when it's going to end. Because listen, all three of us love to talk.

We can get it a little long with it. You know what I mean? And it's going to be fun. And none of us want this to end. So maybe we just pull an all night. I don't know is what I'm saying. Lock in. Lock in?

Oh, my God. Yes. So fun. And it's exciting too, because getting to do this on a convention weekend means we get to be together. It means so many of our other castmates will be there. It means so many of you are already coming to Wilmington. So if you're on. the fence, get off it and book a ticket and come and join us. Get off your fence already.

Get off the damn fence. Here's where you're going to get your tickets. It's O-T-H-merch.com slash events. O-T-H-M-E-R-C-H-com slash events. There's all sorts of tickets and packages and things and yeah, maybe it turns into a lock-in. Are you a fancy listener? Guess what? There are VIP packages just for you. Rob, you don't say. Oh, I do so. That's the finale. It's just us doing ASMR.

This is the kind of unhinged fun energy. We're going to be bringing to Wilmington. What if we whispered the entire finale if we just did this for the entire show? We dim the lights. We say, everyone, get your snacks out now because we don't want any crinkling of paper. Because we don't want to whisper through this. It's lullaby time. Yes.

Guys, we don't know what's going to happen, but we know it's going to be great. It's going to be great. Get your tickets now. All right, Sophie and I are going to go into this episode. Rob's on set. He's going to run back out. We love you. We're going to miss you on this one, but we'll catch you next time, Rob.

Yeah, love you guys. Bye. Good luck out there. Okay, let's do it. First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl.

Chearing for the right team. Drama queen. drama queens smart girl rough girl fashion but you're tough girl you could sit with us girl drama queen drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens hi everyone we're back for the finale season finale season finale yes yes yes season we're not there yet i am starting to like get that feeling though that i had at the end of production where i'm like no i'm not ready i know i know i know it this was uh this was emotional for me to watch. And also strange because I knew it, I know it's not the end, but as a viewer back then, like, and as an actor on the show, we didn't know. We didn't know. We thought that this was going to be it. We should also probably mention, it's not that we're not leaving any room

for Rob to talk. He's not here today. He is filming a movie at the moment. We're very excited for him. But it also feels really weird to not have him to talk about the episode with because it is the season finale. I know. And he had so much great stuff in this season. Well, he'll just have to weigh in on the next one at the beginning of season nine. But for now, we've got episode 22. This is my house. This is my home, which aired in May 2011. The synopsis reads, as Brooke and Haley prepare to reopen Karen's Cafe? Oh my God, it makes me so emotional. Nathan and Clay hit the road, for new prospective clients. Meanwhile, Chase leaves for the Air Force, leaving a disappointed Alex and Chuck behind, and Mouth and Millicent begin their new morning show together.

I loved this morning show so much. Just so, so much. It's the best. I'm so, it was such a great idea that I wish they had come up with it sooner because I feel like we could have done so much at an entire, I mean, they could have done a spin-offs, to be honest. There was just so much material that could have been done. But I love the two of them. The Tree Hill Morning Show. We've been waiting eight years for this to happen. Yes. And they're just so good together. And I think the way that we've seen them growing as a couple, but also as these unlikely business partners in a way through the end of this season. And that gorgeous crescendo moment where she turns the mic over to him at the end of the last episode and everyone obviously sobbed. And on the fly,

he just has these perfectly poetic, such beautiful things to say. And he pulled it off that it didn't feel scripted or planned. It just flowed from who Marvin is. I loved it. It felt so nice. It was such a highlight moment for me of the episode, you know, watching Lee and Lisa together. And it does. They just feel like they're in this perfect spot. I want this morning show in real life. Yes. Yes. And it feels, you know, you said this in the previous podcast that all of our characters feel settled now. Yeah. And I see that with Mouth and Milly that they brought us to that point where finally after everything they've been through individually and together they're finally just settled in with each other that when she gets this opportunity to do a job somewhere else

it's almost not even surprising that she comes back she's just like you know no yeah you're my person this is where i want to be what am i climbing a ladder that i never even tried to be on in the first place like for what for what i just want to be with you and that's yeah the the beauty of what life is about and so much of what our show is about is appreciating what you have in your own backyard. And we're living in a modern culture, especially in America, where we're just trying to climb ladders all the time. And at some point, it's like, can we just enjoy what we have? Like, what's wrong with that?

Can that just be meaningful enough? Yeah. So I love that. Like where you live. Be with your people, you know. And it's really nice, too. I'm enjoying that we are starting to see Jamie. step into his young boyhood in a way that feels reminiscent of the stories when we first met

our characters, Haley and Lucas and Peyton and Nathan and Brooke, and they would talk about growing up in Tree Hill. They would talk about building igloos at eight and, you know, playing basketball with the other kids and all of these things. We're seeing Jamie enter into that, you know, seven-year-old. range and he's doing the things his parents did when when they were little and it's really it's a it's a full circle is he only seven gosh i feel like he he seems like he's 11 like 10 or 11 now did they say he was seven oh my gosh he seems so much older to me i don't i just remember the drama of liking somebody at that age yeah like that it made it feel like 10 or 11.

I don't think so. Yeah, because also Nathan lets him go for a walk by himself in the neighborhood. So he might be approaching 10. So yeah, really the age is that you've heard us tell stories about each other.

And it just, I don't know, it's so sweet. Seeing him in that space and also using his voiceover more and more ever since the baseball episode, opening on him talking about being raised in a magic time. by musicians in a web of magic.

Like, it's just, it's every bit of the nostalgia that we need after eight seasons. Yeah, yeah, they really brought it, brought it full circle. Brooks also grown a lot. I feel like just in between these last two episodes, I mean, it was Puerto Rico and then the next thing we know, she's seven months pregnant. Is that right?

So that was the really interesting thing. about this episode is that we start moving through the pregnancy. And after every commercial break, we skip. So it's, uh, you see two months on the wall and then they trace three. And then you see four and then they're tracing five. And so we used this episode thinking it would be the series finale to cover the 10 months of her pregnancy. So you see almost the whole year go by. in the episode. Yeah. Which is why in the beginning, she's like, I think I'm showing, and he's like, you're skinny.

And she's mad. Tell me, I'm fat. So cute. Later, he says, you know, when he's tracing the five-month belly, he goes, look how fat you are. It's so sweet. I really love, I love watching Broken Julian, too. They've gotten to a point where they're settled and where they, even without the pregnancy, they would have been okay. And so it just feels like a bonus. Yeah. Do you remember you had to wear a big

pregnancy belly? I guess you had to wear lots of different pads in that. Were they uncomfortable? It was interesting trying to figure it out, you know, how to how to tell the story of a pregnancy in one episode, let alone a pregnancy with twins. Yeah. So we basically had racks of all the different size bumps. And then I remember even when we did the scene where I think I'm showing, and I'm like, look, I chugged two, like, two or three bottles of water to just fill my bladder. And then, like, we're trying to shoot the scene, and I'm desperate, I desperately had to pee. Oh, no. You know, but it didn't make sense to be like, are you showing, are you not? Did you eat a burrito?

Like, you wouldn't do a fake belly for that, but alone a prosthetic. one with me lifting up my shirt. So that was a lot of water. And then I remember they started putting me in padded bras. And then we started to go up in the belly size. And then the twin bellies are

really big. And they're they sort of sit differently. So then I would then I would start when I was doing those scenes like keeping bowls of snacks on fake belly and using it as like a little table for my cheez-its and my pretzels. which was great.

That's great. I was like, oh, this is kind of cool. This is like one of the only perks I think the girls get. Yeah, you only had to wear those pads like, yeah, they're one-offs. And it was one episode, and there was multiple different times. Oh, man. When Haley was pregnant with Jamie, I had to be in that stinking pregnancy belly.

For so many episodes, it's hot. It was hot for me. That's what people don't realize. They're made of a really dense foam. Yeah, like a pillow. They're, but worse, like dense, squishy. Yeah, mattress top for foam? Yes, kind of like that.

And they're hot. And then when we did the scene where we're doing the ultrasound and we discover it's twins, we had to do the prosthetic. Oh, right. And so then it all gets glued to your belly and it's just, oh, you're just covered in like plastic and glue and stick and, oh, it was terrible. It was disgusting. But so cute in the episode.

Yes, it worked. It was great. But speaking of the doctor or, you know, finding out, being in the hospital, finding out, the doctor who helps you is the same doctor that was like helping Nathan with his back. I know. Don't you remember? Because I've only been doing this for 35 years. And I'm like, I thought you were an orthopedic specialist. What?

Yeah, guess not. That was a really funny fumble. I'm so surprised that nobody. Nobody got that. Yeah, I was a little bit. When he came on screen, I went, oh, interesting. Interesting. That's not quite, right?

All of this stuff in Karen's Cafe was great. And I remember, I think I was actually still, if it aired in May, I had either just had Maria or I was still pregnant, because I think I was still pregnant in the Puerto Rico episode, which is why I couldn't go. Well, we did Puerto Rico at the end of the season. reason, remember? Which was when? That was the whole thing. You left, we basically shot everything in 820 and then in the finale that you weren't in. And then we went to Puerto Rico at the very end of the season, at the end of April.

It was the last thing we shot was Puerto Rico. And then everybody went home. I don't know. I looked still pregnant, but also when you actually have a baby, you still look pregnant for a good couple of months afterwards. Yeah. And that was also one of the really surreal things, which always is, obviously, about when an actor has to play a pregnancy but obviously isn't pregnant. It was very surreal to just be like adding the belly and the boobs to Brooke. But, you know, I wasn't pregnant. I wasn't gaining weight in, you know, my arms and my face and my lips and all the things that happened to women. And you had just had a baby. And I remember there would be days where we'd be on set together. just be like, this is so ridiculous.

Like, this is ridiculous. This does not look real. Well, look, there are women in the world who manage to carry their babies like basketballs and they drop them and their bodies kind of bounce back. I mean, that's, God bless them. I don't think that's the majority, but it happens. So Brooke gets to be one of those people. Well, bless for her.

I don't think that. But, yeah, I remember, I think I was still pregnant in Puerto Rico when you guys went to Puerto Rico. but yeah it was so nice to see and I was so grateful on set that they were keeping me in one location but to see Karen's Cafe coming back and I wish we had been able to get Moira back for the last episode in some way just to sort of give us her Karen's Cafe blessing I did feel like we missed that especially since we got Dan but I was so happy to see us go back to Karen's Cafe revitalize that that felt as much as we had grown to love close over bros to see that that's

going to have a new iteration in some other way and that karen's cafe gets to be alive again made me happy have you have you been there in town in it recently to the spot yeah last time i was in wilmington we drove by it's like a it's an outdoor store now yeah i think it's like a sportsie kind of like an R-E-I type sportsy. I know. Makes me sad, though. I really wish it was still Cairns. I do too. But it was really sweet, I think, for us to have that, especially because there's been so much focus, you know, on Will Brooke get to start a family? Haley and Nathan having just had another baby, this project for us as friends with our kids and knowing that, you know, they'll get to play on that roof, just like I talked about and all these things. It feels like a homecoming and a next

chapter at the same time. And knowing that we thought this would be the series finale, I just think it's exactly the right decision. Yeah. Would you do that with your friend? Like, what would you want to open? Is there a business you'd want to open with your friends? If you got to a place where you're like, you know what, I'm settling here, this is it. I want to open up this thing and like your friends get to come work there and hang with their kids and what would you want to do? Yes. So one of my best friends and I talk about this all the time. We really want to open like a gorgeous sandwich shop with great coffee that's also an antique store. Yes. This is like my dream. I wanted anthropology to have a coffee shop in it all the time. They never do. But this is better because

there's food. We want to do like a great long meal lunch spot where every, every gorgeous thing in the restaurant is also for sale so we can rotate things through all the time and is that like ABC in New York have you been to ABC there's like a yeah ABC has their furniture store and then their kitchen but they're separate I don't know which came first but yeah they are separate I mean because one had to have a you know a kitchen in it yeah but it's great I love it I love that spot there's two restaurants now. They cover an entire block, I think. So now you can go to one one on the other side, on one side and one on the other side. And then they've got that whole store you can shop in. But I like this idea. Where would you do it? I mean, we'd probably do it here. We'd do it in New York.

Yeah. In the city or a little like place outside of the city somewhere. I mean, you know, my favorite part of Brooklyn has been on my vision board forever. So if eventually that becomes possible. That would be a dream. Yeah. And then we'd be, you know, she and I would be neighbors anyway, which would be so fun. But I don't know. You know, it also feels like the sort of thing that would potentially, you know, depending on the neighborhood and the walkability, do really well in L.A. It could be a vibe in Chicago. I don't know. I, it makes me think of Lillie's market the little market member downtown it was yeah yes she used to have it was back when we were renting videos at blockbuster still she had a video rental wall and a clothing rack and a cheese

refrigerator and wine local wines and it was just all these random things and i loved that place i'm so sad that they closed it but she was this young she was probably in her mid 20s and she had opened up this store. It did really well for a while. It was downtown right on the water in Wilmington, the little market. Her name was Lily. Lily. I loved that. That's been a little fantasy of mine one day to just do something like that. I just think it's so cool. My girlfriend, Lauren, did something similar in Chicago. She has this great shop called Ryder. And it's vintage furniture, like incredible vintage furniture, art, apothecary, candles, jewelry. new, like every kind of cool thing you could want she has in one store and she's an interior

designer. Oh my gosh. Wait, I'm going to be in Chicago next weekend. I'm going to go. Oh, my God. I'll send you to info. It's the best. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we, we did my apartment there together. And then we were literally planning on launching design services as a duo and then COVID hit. And like everything shifted and she wound up moving to France for two years. years. But it was this moment in time. We were about to do an apartment together in one of the Eames buildings there. We were so excited. And then, you know, the world had other plans. But it's just still something I think I have an itch for. I would show up for your shop, whatever it is. I would love to see whatever you curate. That would be really fun. I would love it. Okay, we have to talk about

Speaking of Karen's Cafe, manna, manna. What was the deal? What in the world? I remember us all being so confused, even James. And credit to him, he committed so hard to that. He learned it. He was like a good sport about it. But it was so bizarre.

It felt like knowing everything that we know, it felt to me like some sort of weird, retaliation against him for something, who knows what, but by the showrunner that, like, just whatever, for whatever reason, James got on his bad side for a minute and just decided to write this ridiculous scene. Like, I don't know. I just could not wrap my brain around why in the world this happened.

Me neither. It felt really strange. It was, it was, it felt like another toaster strudel moment. Yes. Where I was like, why do you keep wanting? us to do this stuff. It's like the high five, the toaster pastry, the monomona. I'm like, what is this?

I don't know. It was so strange. And it wasn't just like 15 seconds of it. It was the entire song. I just remember all of us being so confused. Even on the day we were shooting, we were there on set and James is doing it. And I was like, what? What?

I think he was just like, I don't know. Let's just get it over with. Like, fine. I just, yeah, I just don't get it. And it's weird the sort of back and forth, you know, the stuff that you can feel, there's weird energy underneath. And then the stuff that feels so pure, you know, as we're watching Brooke go through this pregnancy and her and Julian are so happy. And then the reviews come in for his movie. Oh, that was so sweet.

And they're so beautiful. There's such beautiful moments in the last episode, in this episode, the writing really is phenomenal. And I'm just like, how does this all exist in the same episode? What's happening? And of all the things that they had, all the material they had, like I would have taken two minutes of Mouth and Milly hands down over. Nathan doing monomona. Like, we already know he's a great dad. We have no need.

It's not furthering the story anymore. It's not getting us anywhere. I just don't know why it was written. It would have been just as easy to have him up on that stage with Lydia in that little baby Bjorn taking the mic and being like, are you going to sing like your mom? Are you going to be a singer like your mom? Yeah. And you watching them play.

Yeah. Yeah. Two seconds. Adorable. Move on. Maybe it was like one of those things. things like the dog eating the heart where it's so ridiculous that the hope was that it would get on the soup exactly that it would get on the soup that it would get like a little publicity

for being so ridiculous but at least then eyeballs then the name of the show is out there i don't know i don't know i wish james was here but he he would still be classy about it even if he was here so he totally would he'd be like oh it was fine yeah next let's talk about something else yeah It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence.

It's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I love that Toad the Wet Sprocket song that they let me sing. But why do they let me play guitar? I am not a guitar player. Like I play enough to just sort of, you know, get across an idea of something, but then you hire in real people.

I have no idea. I'm watching that like, why, why did they let me actually play guitar? It's so bad. Why didn't they just bring somebody else in? Come on. No. It was so mad. But it was fun to sing that because I did love that song. I loved that song in high school. I did too. I thought it was so good. It was a nice, it did feel like a nice, I don't know, throwback in a way. Yeah. And the sort of some of the music being a little older and then some things feeling really fresh. It just, again, it all, it all really feels like it's coming full circle, which is interesting because then we do 13 more episodes. Yeah, it's so strange. Yeah, but I will say, speaking of the music, I was really glad we were back to Gavin for the theme song. Me too. I've been skipping the intro for so long now. Because I just can't. I can't either. I just can't do it. So it was really nice to have the song that we know and that imprinted on our show back. It was like taking a deep breath of relief when I heard his voice come on. Me too. I'm like, oh, thank God. Okay. And then I also really liked that when we got to Mouth and Millie

in the morning and we had had this beautiful moment knowing that Julian's movie, you know, is being so well reviewed. It's, it all feels like this kind of ground swell of excitement. And then it cuts to them and Alex's movies coming out and they're getting to talk about it on the air. And then Jana's song is under it. Yeah. It all was just so great. Is this a movie we watched him shoot? Or is, am I? Yeah. This is his, this is his Alex Dupray movie. We saw it at Sundance, but now it's coming out in theaters. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Alex and Chase of it all. Let's talk about them. Realistic, not realistic. Are you sad that he didn't choose Mia? Or she didn't choose him, I guess. I don't know. I don't know. I think, I do really think

that Jana and Stephen are so great together. And I just really enjoy watching them. And I think for Mia and Chase to have been together, she might have had to change her life in a way that I don't, want her to i don't want her to give up on touring and all the things you know despite how sweet they are together as well like there's something about the alex and chase that is sticky for a reason and i think that their sweet scene i mean him saying meet me right here a year from today was so lovely. Yeah, it was. That was really sweet.

I don't know. I still, as much as they do have good chemistry, Jana and Stephen are great. I don't like Alex. Oh, oh, oh, oh. I just don't like Alex. Right. I don't believe her that she's changed at ever.

She's like, Dan. She just is constantly, I don't know, this is a character who has more often than not, looked out for themselves and adjusted their personality and herself to whatever it is that she actually wants to get rather than just maintaining a consistent personality, a consistent character, like not character, acting character, like a person, your character within you. She hasn't maintained any consistency in that regard, and I just don't trust her and I don't like her. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, everybody.

No, I mean, listen, I think I get it. And I guess part of me is like, oh, do I, am I personalizing that I like Jana? Right. You know, to like Alex, maybe a little, I don't know. But I think there's, there is, there's always, we always have an ability to understand characters, you know, on shows. Sometimes I think even better than we understand people, because we watch the characters. We watch them try to grow. We watch them fail. We see them in moments. We don't see our friends or our family or whatever. Yeah, that's a great point. But I also hear, especially because we're watching

episode to episode, like you've got a list. You've got a list of Alex's screw-ups that you can't get over right there in your brain. And yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, like if she, if she was remorseful, If we actually got to see some apologies and some real, like, growth, and not just an apology, but actually, like, making real changes, I feel like maybe I could, obviously I would make space, but I don't know. I just, yeah, but you're right that we, we do watch characters differently than we watch each other because we know it's only for a limited time. You can watch every move, every detail, unsupervised, and you know that you're being taught a lesson in some way. you're being told a story. And you understand their shortcomings in ways that we often don't understand people's shortcomings in the world because we don't really get to see people struggle the way we get to see our TV characters

struggle. Yeah, that's true. You're not there in private moments in real life, but a camera can follow a character into a private moment. Exactly, exactly. So I don't know, it's interesting. On the one hand, yes, when you list Alex's discursions, I'm like, ooh. But then I'm like, but she's trying so hard and she's growing and we're watching it happen.

And yeah, it's interesting to kind of have the push and pull with the character. That would be so, I want to start thinking about that with people in my real life. Like, if there was a camera following them into private moments, what would that look like? because I don't share mine very often. I don't often call a friend in a private moment because I don't know why. I don't know. I just don't, it's like I don't want to burden people or I don't want to like be an interruption or an annoyance. And I know how neurotic I can be.

And so I just want to like deal with it on my own. Yeah. But if I had a friend who was in a friend. private moment and reached out. To me, I'd be, I'm happy to, I like, I love that. Like, I want to help and participate or just be a listening ear or whatever. Why is it like so much harder to I don't know. I, I did this the other night with my, my best girlfriend from junior high and high school. She had a thing going on, said, hey, can you talk? Took us two nights to both have, you know, be home across time zones in the, in the right moments. And we sat on.

the phone for two hours and she walked me through all these things that she has going on and i i then obviously we were just in conversation i told her a bunch of things and some of it she was like wait i didn't know this and i and it was exactly that realization she was like honey pick up the phone i'm always here you know to listen or whatever and i just thought yeah i i i don't know i i i i i don't know i i i i i I always worry that if I have something going on, I'm taking up someone else's time. Yeah. Yeah. But I never feel like anyone's taking up my time.

It's an honor to be there. Yeah. So it is interesting that we, it's interesting that we want to love people in ways we don't often let people love us. Yeah. And then, yeah, absolutely. And then, you know, I've got nothing to complain about if I feel like my, you know, you know, my friends don't know me as well as I want them to because I'm the one that's preventing that. Like, I'm the one that's got the wall up. And it's just, it's so hard to be,

it's so hard to be vulnerable. It is. So maybe that's why we love our TV characters because we feel like. But also that's what I was just going to say. I think it's interesting when we look back at what rewatching this show has been like, so much of what we enjoy about. it is the way our characters communicate with each other. Totally. Totally. I know. I want that.

I always like, I want that so bad, but it's hard. It's just, it's hard. It's harder in real life. Like when it's in a script, you can say something that is outrageous or offensive or whatever. And the other person is just like, they'll just blow back up at you and you have it out. And then they, you know, you're fine. But in real life, everybody just keeps their mouth shut most of the time.

They're like, okay. And then they walk away and they're like, well, now I know. And then they just never follow up and never like, I want to be challenged. I want to be like engaged with in that way. But I don't know that I do that very often with people either. I will, it depends on how close we are, I guess. I think that's part of it. It depends on how close you are with somebody.

I don't know if that's making any sense. Maybe it's a ramble. No, I mean, I think it does. And I especially think, I mean, listen, it can all depend, right? On what context you know people in, you know, how long you've been friends. But it's like, think about all the iterations over the last 20 years. We've been through with each other. Yeah.

You know? And there's always still a moment after however many years. at a time where you're like we can still go this deep though right like are we are we going to challenge each other on this thing are we going to and i don't know maybe it's just very human to be a little scared yeah but like you push through it yeah you have to or you just won't like there's just no way to give and receive love for real because there's no actual safety there you don't know for sure if it's safe because you never actually push to find out. But I love that to bring it full circle. I think the thing that connects me about that with our show is that we

in a way, I think, we're able to model that for so many. And like having that modeled, even for me as a person, having that modeled by performing that with other characters in a weird meta, sort of way, really was helpful and informative. And I think one of the things that made people love our show so much and makes all of these moments in this last episode feel like such a payoff because everybody's been through all those private moments with us and they feel it too. I think so too. And you know what?

It really, I'm realizing in real time as we're talking about it, not on camera, but on set. there is an expectation that you won't rock the boat. Oh, totally. You have to keep it pushing. You have to keep it professional. So you do learn, especially young, you know, and especially when you grew up on the set like ours, where things were changing all the time

and no one was really talking about a lot of it. You kind of learn to just show up and be good. And you're on eggshells a little about like, are we going to acknowledge this? Are we not? We're not. Okay, we're just going to do the work today. And so I actually think being a young actor who works as regularly as we were all working at the time, you can learn to not ever bring anything up. Yeah, you learn to just process things on your own because it's too risky. You're risking the chaos or piece of an entire production. Yep, and it might waste people's time and whatever. So you just keep everything at work for work.

Whoa, that's good. But then you don't really learn to talk to each other in the ways that people who don't have to perform on set do. Yeah. And so I think it's also really interesting for us, you know, you learn in therapy that you carry all your younger versions of yourself in you, right? Yeah. So in a really interesting way, as adults, we are unlearning some of the quiet that we learned in real time when we were. filming the show and we're learning it watching how well we could communicate on camera in the ways we were never encouraged to off camera and that we had to learn to off camera after

the show wrapped yeah you know because on camera there's no stakes there's no real stakes you can play with the emotion of feeling uncertain but you know for sure like I'm going to yeah put this this scene away and go home and have a real life you know how the episode's going to end right right where it is in real life you don't know you don't know anything yeah so you just have to yeah I think that's a really fair point and we learned a lot of that and we've had to we have to I'm still unlearning that I mean me too but I really think about like think about the way all of our friendships changed after the show finally wrapped yeah you know like things got deeper for people after everybody got to like take a beat and then reunite in real life and so it's interesting to

me now it's almost like the third point of the triangle like we did it and we learned to be quiet and we learned to perform above all else and then we got a break and then we all got to reconnect in real life and now our real life and our performance we're we're tying them together and going oh my god which is why doing this podcast is kind of like doing therapy for us yes a thousand percent and you know what the weird thing is too that's such a messes with your mind that when you're on a set for that long and doing that performative communication as you're talking about, we learned how to connect with each other as a sort of surface version of each other because you couldn't go so deep as to rock the boat. So we had to sort of construct these ideas about

who each other were and relate to that in order to keep the peace. And so there was like an element of knowing each other, but not. But also not. Not also the real depth. Yeah. so then it's like getting to know someone that you're supposed to have actually like we've known each other for 20 years but how much of each other have we known for 20 years and then trying to dive back in and figure out like what are the what are the pieces here that are missing to fill in the whole picture yeah you start to go like oh there's holes in this puzzle yeah and I also think I mean you know we talked in the last episode with Allison about how much she enjoyed reading your book Like, I don't think it's an accident that, you know, off camera, you and I have been able to share so much about recovering from narcissistic relationships.

Yeah. Because when you learn to keep the piece and not even make space for what pieces might be missing from your puzzle because you got to get through the things, you don't know how to turn that off. Yeah. It just becomes second nature. Yes. And it's really interesting when you look back and you go, oh yeah, in hindsight, I see all these things. But at the time, I just didn't see them. I literally couldn't be conscious of this because I'm used to not acknowledging this. I'm used to not acknowledging anything in the corner over there that I don't even know that I don't look in the corner anymore. Yeah. I'm always moving out of the way. Oh, yeah. I don't even know that I'm not looking. I know. It's wild. It's a whole other level. It's a whole other level. It makes me, it's one of the things that makes me, I'm so grateful for our show.

I'm also, you know, there are, everybody has life experiences where it's packed full of things that you're so grateful for. And then you also realized you've learned so many lessons from because there were a lot of bad things in it too. Yeah. But, you know, overall, I'm so grateful that we got to have the experience that we did. Me too. I also think, you know, and I know we've said this before, but the cool thing about the rewatch and the time we get to spend, and I don't just mean us as hosts, I mean all of us,

like going to our conventions and doing this podcast together and having all the friends on it all the time. Yeah. It really does, I don't know, it just gives you something back. And for me, and I know this is really common, you can go through a hard thing and you kind of lose certain memories. Like when you've been through a trauma or whatever,

that thing becomes the biggest thing in your rearview mirror in certain ways, in your brain. And what I've loved about this journey is that it's kind of right-sized that stuff. It's shrunken it down to only take up the amount of space, you know, the least amount of space it should, actually, less space than it used to, less space than it did at the time. And it feels like it's increased. It feels like it's blown up the balloons of all our good memories to be bigger. Yeah. And I don't know that

we would have had that otherwise. Yeah. I think so too. I think there's a key in that of learning to appreciate suffering, which is hard. Because of course, in a perfect world. We don't want to suffer. We don't want anyone else to suffer. It's terrible to feel it. But when you appreciate what we're able to, what we're able to siphon out of those experiences that feel so difficult at the time, then you can put things in their proper place and you're able to appreciate all of the good things that came out of it rather than just focused being focused perpetually on I shouldn't have had to go through that and that was suffering and I you know because everybody's going to suffer at some in some capacity well and the thing is to

your point you wouldn't wish it on anyone including yourself but if it's happened being furious that it happened instead of analyzing what you learned from it it it's like you it's like picking your scab off instead of letting it heal yeah and I I really think it's the best outcome is when you can say, yeah, I wouldn't have wished this on myself or anyone else, but here's what I learned. Here's what we learned. Here's what we made. And you can take the positive memories and those can be the ones that you construct the new reality out of it. Yeah. And it's kind of a weird way of saying it because obviously reality's reality. We're not making our own. But there is something in our bodies about how we

relate to things that we've been through. And so if you can reconnect your body to thinking of times when you experience suffering to the positive moments that were in between all those difficult times, then I feel like that's a huge win. That's like a major way that you can win over difficult circumstances. Totally. Totally. And it's just, it's all so cool.

It's like, I don't think it's an accident. that this episode feels like this full circle of essentially the decade of our lives. And then it's making us very reflective in real time. It's like, oh, yeah, it's doing exactly what it was supposed to do. I think we were feeling a lot of that as actors, too, as it came to an end because we weren't sure what was going to happen. And it really did feel like, okay, this isn't like season four or five. Like, this is really, we're at eight now.

I think we might be done. Yeah. So, yeah, it's, yeah, listeners, I think that's why the reflection is coming in. so much because this is how we felt at the end of it. Like, what do we do with all this? Mm-hmm. It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric

that this is something we've been doing for a hundred two years, you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Should we do a quick listener question before we wrap up? All right. What do we have? Lauren, she's saying, why do all the kids have their mother's maiden names as their first names? James, Davis, Sawyer. Where did the name Jude come from? Did you guys get to have any input in the kids' names? Whoa, whoa, whoa, Lauren, there's so many questions.

Just one of the time, please. Kidding, we're kidding. I don't know. Why did they, I guess it was just a kind of a cute little tree hill thing, little treehill trademark. Yeah, I think because there were so many nicknames with our last names, you know, you were always called Haley James, and it was P. and B. Davis, and it was a way to keep those names in the running. And then I know

that Jude was a reference to, you know, the famous Beatles song, Hey Jude, and because it was adjacent to Julian. So since Davis would have Brooks' last name, Jude was almost like a Julian Jr. Yeah, that makes sense. But no, we never got input on that. the names. Definitely not. No. That was writer's room only. Well, should we spin a wheel? Let's spin a wheel. Oh, I wish Rob was here. This is fun. I know. This is perfect after the last episode,

a la, Miss Lauren, who's most likely to send a naughty text to the wrong person? I mean, clearly it's Miss Lauren. Yeah. By the way, we have our answer. Yeah, obviously. I don't know for all of us. Who's clumsy enough to do that? I am neurotic about sending text messages and making sure it's the right person because I've messed up before. And no. Yeah, I don't.

I don't do that. I also just don't trust devices. Yeah. No. That's not happening. Oh, I just mean even like an actual text message, not photos or anything. But I'm like, you know, it says a naughty text. I'm like, who is doing that?

Does anyone pay attention to the internet? Like, come on, guys, no. Yeah. No, no, no, no. No, thank you. I don't know. I don't know who would, I'm trying to think in real life of who would actually say. Probably Paul.

One of our producers just said, obviously, Nanny Deb. Oh, yes. Yeah, I could see Barbara doing that, like accidentally sending one to one of her, one of her girls or something. Instead of her cute boyfriend. Oh, my God, I would die. But, you know, her daughters are so cool. they have such a great relationship. They'd be like a wrong number, Mom.

They'd be like hot, though. Yeah. Taking tips from Mom. I love it. Well, what's coming up next, Sof? I can't believe it. Next episode, Season 9, Episode 1, Know This We've noticed. All right, friends, we'll see you soon.

Thanks for joining us for all of this so far up through season 8, and we'll see you next time. See you soon. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's O-T-H. Or email us at Drama Queens at I-HeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens.

We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. You can be a smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. Thus, girl, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama, queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop.

That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.