Drama Queens - The Sound of One Tree Hill with Lindsay Wolfington

Episode Date: April 28, 2025

One Tree Hill’s legendary Music Supervisor, Lindsay Wolfington, joins the Drama Queens for a deep dive into the memorable music moments that brought the show to life. From landing major artists like Sheryl Crow, Kid Cudi, and Fall Out Boy to curating the show’s most powerful musical moments, Lindsay shares all the behind-the-scenes secrets. Plus, she reveals the story behind choosing Gavin DeGraw’s I Don’t Want to Be as the show's iconic theme song and why it was the perfect fit.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl, cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl, you could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. ladies and gentlemen we have a real treat for you today we've been talking about having her on the podcast for so long she really changed the landscape of one tree hill and made it what it what you know it as in terms of a show that brought you new musicians broke musicians on on the show the sound the feeling

all the emotions that you experienced watching one tree hill that were under the under the underscore literally of all of this music that was brought in. This is Lindsay Wolfington. And we're so happy to have you here. Hi, Lindsay. Welcome to the show. Welcome, Lindsay. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you guys for having me. Lindsay, to, I mean, everyone's point, we've been talking about just how desperate we've been to get you on the show. So thank you for coming. I do hope that out there in the ethers, it's felt nice to know how often we talk about you and not weird. And yeah, We're just so... Never weird.

Okay, great. We're just so amped that you're here. And I just have to say, not only for the fans, but, you know, especially for all of us here, what you gave us in terms of the emotional experience for our characters and certainly the ways that you supported both Joy and I and every other member of our cast who got to direct. Like, that's something I'm jazz to talk to you about, what it's like to work with you as a director. But just to paint a picture for all of our wonderful friends and listeners at home, Um, that's literally what Lindsay does. She manages to put the feeling in the moving pictures that you see on screen. She's worked in music supervision for 20 years known for her work on our show, um, where she featured over 1,700 songs that ranged from breaking artists to icons like Led Zeppelin and you two more recently for her work on the Netflix sensation to all the boys I've loved before and its follow-up sequel. Um,

also shows about great emotion and falling in love. I love the teen drama. Exactly. We love the teen drama. You're working on a typical on Netflix, Virgin River on Netflix, Warrior None on Netflix, drama club on Nickelodeon,

and two romantic comedies from the producers of Two All the Boys and Love at First Sight. Your credits are actually too enumerative to read. So look her up on IMDB because we want to talk to her and I don't want to spend nine more minutes reading her own resume to her. But thank you for being here. I want to ask you the question, I'm sure so many folks at home who would love to do what you do want to ask, which is, how did you get your start working in music on production? Yeah, I got super lucky.

First of all, I got into it before it was popular and anybody knew it was a thing. So I worked in radio in college. I was actually a DJ at WBRU in Providence, which was a modern rock radio station. But all the DJs were actually students at Brown University. That is so cool. Yeah. My DJ name was Maggie Wolfe because I was like, I don't want it to be my real name, but my first name is Margaret. And I was like, I'll be Maggie Wolfe.

So I worked in radio and I did Acapella in college. But then, like, I knew the radio thing. I didn't want to continue. Actually, it's funny. Like, everyone wanted to move on and be a VJ, right? Like, we all wanted Hillary's job. But there were like three people who could have that job. So I was actually a huge fan of the TV show Felicity, which was on the WB, and I noticed they used music so well and a lot of music and a lot of music that wasn't necessarily like a radio hit.

And I was like, I bet that's someone's job. So that I like went to the movies once and I stayed for the end credits and I saw the title music supervisor. And I was like, I bet that's what it is. So it was a lot of like, I bet that's someone's job. And I bet that's what it's called. I moved to. So I was like, I'll go. I'll move to L.A. I'm from the East Coast originally, and I was like, I'll go to L.A. for two years and then maybe end up back in New York. But I'll go see what this is about. My first week in L.A. was September 11th, 2001. Like, not a good time to be cold calling people. But eventually, I connected with an alum of my Acapello group who worked at Disney overseeing shows like Aalius and Felicity. And I was like, oh, my God, Felicity is my dream show. So he was like, I know the women who work on it.

your best bed is to start as an unpaid intern, like I can send your resume over. And that was Jennifer Piken and Madonna Wade Reed. They had a company called Daisy Music. And at the time, they were doing Alias, Smallville, Felicity, and Boston Public. Wow. Were there bigger shows on TV? I think not. No, like I, so I ended up, I met with them. They were like behind on paperwork. They were like, yes, we need help. It was right time, right place. And I was ready to dig in. And I worked unpaid for like a week. And then they were like, we can tell you really into it. And we can tell we need you.

So I stuck around. But yeah, like that January, they were in Rolling Stone as like the It Girls putting music to TV. So I learned with the best, right? And they were awesome. It was like, Sophia, you've been to the office. I don't know if you remember coming to the office. But it was like wall-to-wall CDs. And it was just two open rooms.

So like you heard everything, right? So it's really an apprenticeship. type business. And, you know, I started off, obviously, like, doing paperwork and, like, finding the song that you could barely hear in the cafe. But I remember, like, my first placement was a big breakup moment in Felicity. And it was this, like, super sad song by an indie artist called Sarah Sleen. And I was like, anyway, those are my favorite type of scenes to place and kind of side note. But, like, now another supervisor friend and I have started a podcast called Sad Song Queens because like we love sad songs and we love talking to the artists about them.

That's great. But anyway, that was a, that was like a long way of, so I worked with Jenna Madonna for four years and they did all of Tolan Robbins shows. So they did Smallville and then like the following year we worked on two shows that got canceled. So like of course those were the show like we split up who oversaw a show. Like we all did creative on all the shows. but we had a point person on each show that so nothing fell through the cracks that person did all the paperwork on it

so I always had like the lowest show on the totem pole which in my third year was One Tree Hill Wow Everybody loved it but we had Smallville and we had Las Vegas and both of them were like huge shows Yeah no that I mean that was the narrative about our show for a long time

I mean that was what they would tell us Like you're the underdog, you're on the bubble You're gonna get you know But I have a question before we move into that because we should. But just to clarify for anybody who doesn't totally understand how you do what you do,

they send, maybe you can just clarify, like, you're sent scenes with no, you know, with the sound, just the audio of the actors, you are given the script, you break down the script in terms of an emotional arc.

Like, what do you do? Yeah, our process and my process always begins at the script stage. And definitely with One Tree Hill, they were like, we need music from the very first cut like the editor's cut needs to already have music in it so they needed things to work with so

sometimes you make bins like we always made a karen's cafe bin because you knew you were going to be in there right yeah but basically i read the script and break down where i think there will be music needs and sometimes it's a cafe or a bar um sometimes it's you know on one tree hill it was almost always like an opening montage an end montage we always had our coda um and montage uh and then you you're kind of looking for moments like oh if two characters are having their first kiss like probably going to be a moment we're going to want to put a song in on one tree hill we did a lot of like trying to tie scenes together with a song um like you probably noticed you're like wait we've been using this song for three minutes so like it was looking for scenes that maybe had the same

feel to them and so basically i make an excel spreadsheet that breaks down the scenes where I think we'll need music and then I take and then I kind of budget out so the one especially on season one we had like no money so you had to be very careful about where you spent your money and obviously you'd rather spend your money in the coda than like Karen's cafe right so I would kind of break that down and then put on my headphones and send three to four choices for every scene and then I mean this is I would burn a CD and send it to the editor with my notes of like what went where Now I can go on Dropbox and make a folder for like scene and scene and whatever. But yeah, there was a lot of burning CDs and making sure, you know, you had, you titled the songs correctly because there was inherently a time where like you, you know, you put this song and they picked track 12 and you cleared track 12. But actually, it was track 13 because like someone just misread something, right? You just had to make sure things were titled correctly so you actually cleared what you were using. Okay, so I have a follow-up question to that because this is super interesting. And I think it's in the landscape of our show and the time.

You know, you're talking about Smallville, Las Vegas, all these shows that were juggernauts in terms of audience, you know, wrap, all the things. And then you had our show, which was sort of like the little engine that could in the beginning. Totally. That's what I called it too. but like that's also sort of what it was like for musicians you know there were big bands or big artists at the time and then there were small indie artists really trying to break through i mean what a trip to think that we got kid cuddy when no one knew who he was and like you know now he's out touring the world how did you as a music supervisor because i know the budget was part of it right it's easy to be like well we can't afford this like we couldn't afford led zeppelin till season three so you

You can go to bat for smaller artists, but how would you convince, not just the people who ran our show, like the big guys at Tolan Robbins, but, you know, how do you get a Warner Brothers to buy into some unheard of indie artist? Would you get them across the finish line by arguing that they were less expensive but would do the job? Or were you having to be like, you don't understand, this band is really going to hit, trust me like how does it work well i there's not that much so i was never on notes calls so like i'm not talking to the head of warner brothers i'm i'm working with our showrunners and the editors and

getting the songs in and then i'm working with the music department over there and really what they care is about about his budget but they're the ones that are like if you're going over you need to let us know so in seas it began of necessity okay and because we used so much music that, like, actually, you know, in retrospect, One Tree Hill's music budget is bigger than most budgets you see today. But we use 10 songs an episode. So, like, the money went fast. So season one, so the way you would do it is,

you know those things at the end of the episode that said, tonight you use music buy. So that gave us a discount from the labels. And that was a big, you know, it was like an advertisement for an album. Is that unique to our show? It was unique to the WB and then the CW. And then they got rid of it. I'm not even sure it was existing in the last season.

I feel like it was. But in the early 2010s, it went away. But it was. It was kind of like the WB and CW or the only places you could have that opportunity. And then I think ABC family adopted it. But it gave you a discount. And basically any major label artist we used in season one, pretty much had to take that for us to be able to afford them.

Wow. It's like product placement, actually. Yeah, exactly. Well, and I talked to a label person once, and she was like, you know, getting a band's name in someone's head is about impressions. So getting that ad card is a second impression, right? Like you hear it once in the episode and then you hear it again at the end. And the more impressions you can give a song, the more traction you can get it. But in terms of everything else and all these indie artists,

you know we had Peyton as a character so like from the start like I think like in the beginning like in the early scripts like they wrote in the Atari's who weren't really didn't license a ton I think we used one song by them but she had this punk indie thing about her anyway so it was very clear we used to make a separate mixtape for that was called like Peyton's playlist and so like and the editors knew that like if you were in Peyton's room you would pull from that. Yeah. That's so fun to know.

It's so cool. I didn't even know this was happening. I love it. Yeah. I mean, it was fun too, right? Like, you know, any person who works in music is like a little bit Peyton Sawyer at heart, right? Yeah, totally. So yeah, so we got some really cool.

So I would, you would have people send you music that also was just like indie up and coming, like either punky or vibe. So she was supposed to listen to indie music anyway. So that also made things a little bit easier. And then I remember there was a point in a later season because literally every episode I came to the spotting session, which is, have you guys talked about a spotting session? So the spotting session is when like the episode is locked

and we sit in the room with the editor and the composer and the music editor and the music supervisor and we and post-production supervisor. And we watch the episode and we talk about every music cue. So like score and song. Before there's any music put in, you just talk about what it needs to feel like. It's been temped up. No, so this is like, you know, this is after the studio has approved everything.

It's like you're making alteration, the final alteration on the dress, right? Exactly. Okay. And so, and most of the stuff that's been, score-wise especially, most of the stuff that is tempted in is not final. Like, we had some, like, Nathan and Haley had a theme. So, like, that got reused a couple times. I don't even know if I would know what that is.

I mean, I guess if I was just. that somewhere in the recesses of my mind, I might be like, that's familiar, but I didn't know there was like a someone scored a theme. Well, there were two. And it was like, and I'm sure we like used it on other people just because like it was, I remember season one and two, like the composer had created some cue and it was just so good. It worked like everywhere. Like it was like a romantic cue. And if you had a romantic moment, it worked. Did we have the same composer the whole time? No. So the first two seasons it was, or maybe the first, just the first season, it was, was Mark Snow, who was the composer on Smallville.

Yeah. Yeah. And then we hired John Nordstrom, and I was part of that hiring process. It must have been season three because, so the first two seasons I worked on the show with Jennifer Piking and Madonna Wade Reed as their coordinator. So I'm not credited, but I was there. Yeah. And then season three, and then they split up their partnership and Wentry Hill kept me.

So season three on, it was like me alone doing 22 episodes year. I was like, actually, it's funny. there's a guy who worked in our office who set me up with my husband, but like when he first came in, he thought I was a bitch because I was just like, I have a job to do. Like, stop talking to me. Like, you know, we're actual airs in a week and I got to clear all the songs. I'm not here to socialize.

So season three, we hired John Nordstrom. We found that often we would like temp with songs, like instrumental versions of songs by a band. Like not necessarily songs you would know, but just you can probably tell like the score sounds like members of a band right like it's real guitar there are drums in there you know especially when like explosions in the sky came out like you know that score definitely inspired some of our score um so we hired a composer who would do that who would like bring in like basically a band and like write our songs because um you know our producers were like band people they wanted

everything to sound like a song so we had so much original music totally But Haley and Nathan's theme, there's definitely a moment, and I haven't rewatched everything, but there's a moment, I think, does he re-proposed to you by a lake somewhere? Does he, I mean, we got married. Does he repropos? There's a moment, anyway, it's definitely in that scene, wherever that is. Okay, I'll look for it. At a cabin, he reproposes at a cat. I have no memory of this.

Oh, I'm sorry, guys. Don't hate me. It's when we go to Rachel's cabin. Yeah, but I don't remember Nathan. reproposing? I'm remembering it because we were all so surprised when we watched it on the podcast because there was that dock behind his cabin, but we all remembered the like nighttime scenes where we were all closing around the fire. I think so. Isn't it funny the things that come through? You're like, here's the coat color. I'm like, there's a lake. Yes, I was in a green coat.

My hair was down. That's right. I remember this now. Okay. Ah, sweet. Okay, wait. I do have a question now about our theme song because were you there from the beginning? Did you find Gavin with Gavin a friend of one of the higher ups on the show? Like, how did that come together? Because that theme song is so epic. Totally. I can't take credit for the theme song. Madonna Wade Reed brought Gavin's song to the table. So we made like a CD of ideas and I believe he was on it. I think a couple songs from him were on it. And Joe DeVola was just like, this is him.

Like, oh my God. So, yeah. And so that album, it was on Jay Records. Nothing was really going on with him at the time. And it had been out a little bit, right? Oh, wow. And actually, our showrunner had a get-up kid's song in mind called Overdue, which we actually did end up using in the show and putting on one of our soundtracks.

but it was a little less up-tempo. So obviously, like, Gavin made a bigger splash. Yeah, totally. And everybody loved it. Because that song comes in with such energy. And it's interesting, we are currently on the podcast in season eight. And season eight, every episode of an artist covers it. And I don't mean this to be critical in any way.

They're all incredible. And it's cool to see how someone reimagined something. But every time I hear a cover, I'm like, but that's not the energy of the song, you know? And maybe it's because we spent eight years getting so used to the song. But it is, it's sort of surreal when you realize that the actual music in a song can be energetically thematic of a show itself. Mm-hmm. It may look different, but native culture is very alive.

My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I got to say, I came to the party very late, Lindsay. Obviously, I joined season seven. When I got the job, I went and bought the DVD box sets of seasons five and six. And I remember the first night I sat down, there was a group of my friends over, and we started to watch it. My very first impression of the show was, holy crap, this show has incredible music. like so you did such a good job and now it's like we're watching every episode it's just it's crazy how consistently strong it is so I guess it's just I just wanted to say like you you did such a wonderful job on this because as someone who's not very like my wife makes funny because I listen to the same music I've listened to for like 20 years ago with yeah like our Spotify playlist are so funny because mine is like 32 songs and and hers is like 32,000 songs because she's always exploring. And I'm like, I'll stay within these six artists.

So every episode when there's so many new people, it always blows my mind. I'm like, how, like, how do you do that? Like, how do you constantly keep so much new music in your orbit? You're just out watching bands like every week? I guess it's different now with streaming versus back then when you had to catch new bands live or get a tape or record or whatever. I don't know if Sophia you witnessed this when you walked in, We had, like, huge buckets for mail, like, too.

Like, people sent us CDs all the time and then figuring out what was actually good was the hard part. Yeah. But it was also, like, you know, being still working now and there's great music always, but I, you know, it was a really great time for music. And especially, like, indie rock, which, which was like a lane we lived in a lot. and I was 24 when the show started so I really lived and breathed this show like I was I was into it I was a fan of it I loved the music we used I loved how we used music which I know like it's a lot for some people not all shows want wall to wall music but it was so much fun and to like your point Rob I also think there was like there was trust like for me it was really amazing too because the editors would be told like don't just throw in your own music like use what Lindsay sends you and part of that was budget but there was that was also like every once in a while someone would like throw in a song and

you'd be like whoa that that's for a 40 year old audience like that we are catering to 15 year olds and I think the other thing about catering to a young audience they're into music discovery so using new artists is like exciting and breaking an artist or like using an artist or a song you've never heard before and connecting it with characters that you really care about is right like it's a it's a it can be a pivotal moment for a person and it can be a pivotal moment for the artist like honestly oh my god joy I almost called you Haley I was like I would call them their character name you'll be bad but like when you cut when you made halo and we put that on the second soundtrack um that that song was used

in the episode the day the soundtrack came out and the label maverick records i think was a little bit worried that were like wait like why is this the song relating it i was like you guys everybody loves nathan and haley if this is the nathan and haley song that's the song they're going to identify with and it did great for us sure enough yeah yeah it was huge by the way how kickass was that song. I'm so jealous that you got to sing it like that. I know. I mean, she, Kara DiGuarder, who wrote that is super, super talented. I'm lucky I got

to. But what you were saying about characters, how it, you know, can support these different characters. I think it's also because the music and maybe you or you and the composer, but you kind of created a character that

was in the show with us at all time. So that's what the audience was feeling. It's not just like a score that supports things. And you're right, not every show lends itself to having wall to wall music, but because the music, the musical sensibility that you guys had really became its own character that we all were interacting with emotionally. I think that's what made it so powerful. And then you have the actual characters that came on the show, like we got Cheryl Crow. We got, when we got Tyler who came in, how many of these musicians, Kate,

Michelle Featherstone, I don't know if people knew Janice sang when she came on. I'm not sure how that worked, but like, what was your role in bringing in actual characters onto our show who would sing? Yeah, so I was definitely involved in that. So Cheryl Crow started it all, right? Gavin being on camera in season one was part of the soundtrack deal that was like, or sorry, part of the theme song deal. Wow. If he'd get to play it on camera. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, smart. And then the Cheryl Crow thing happened because she had a best-of album and Interscope Records called us and was like, oh, my God, we'd love to get Cheryl to perform live on a show. And she was calling us as people who were working on four shows, right? She called us. She called Daisy Music. I think they were like, so to be like, does Las Vegas, does Smallville, does whatever, we, I feel like we had four shows.

Yeah. And they were like, we wanted to air in February because maybe that's when it came out. She was on tour, wasn't she? Yeah, she was because it was fast. She was in and out very fast. They wanted to air in February and the only show we were working on

that hadn't filmed all their episodes that were going to air in February was One Tree Hill. Whoa. And of course, Lucky us! Goe de Vola was like a huge Cheryl Crow fan before anyway, so he was like, we have to do this happen.

Ditto. And Jimmy Iveen used his private jet to fly her out on. It was Super Bowl Sunday. She flew in and out. Who's Jimmy Iveen? He's the head of Interscope. Joy!

As the only musician in the group of the three of us, I love that year. You should watch that documentary, though. There's a documentary all about on HBO. Who's this Stephen Spielberg guy? Is he like a big deal? Just before we transition off of theme songs, because obviously, One Tree Hill's theme song is like kind of, it's pretty iconic. And there's just been such a change in television where every show used to have a theme song.

And they used to be like, I can tell you every word of the Golden Girls theme song. I'm sure everyone has a couple that they just love so much. What percentage of shows today would you say actually even have a proper theme song? I mean, I don't have an answer to that. But here's the thing. So it costs a lot of money to license I don't want to be as our theme song. song. Now, of course, when it started, you know, when they do the deal, they plan, you know, they look ahead that, you know, so the show could go on for multiple seasons. I don't negotiate that

deal. The studio negotiates theme song deals. Yeah. But so like, you know, it probably didn't cost that much to have to license a theme song season one, but then by like season five or season eight, I know because we basically took the theme song fee, and that's how we were able to have those original covers made. but so that costs money every episode right and you have to pay for you when you license songs you have to get you have to pay the songwriter so that's the publishing and then you have to pay the label or recording owner so it's times two so it became much more popular to create theme songs that the studios own like if there is a theme song these days it's usually created for the show and owned by the studio that owns the show and then they can use it for marketing purposes they can can use it wherever they want because they own it, right? So that makes a lot of sense. But you're right. Even in the later seasons of One Tree Hill, you see us just using the title card and you just get into the show. So I agree. Sometimes I like that we can just get into the show. Like Virgin

River doesn't have a theme song. We just do a title card. But there's definitely a theme that the composer is made that is usually used over that. Yeah. You get in musically, but you you don't necessarily have the montage of cuts and people and characters and things that, I mean, it's fun for us to watch. It feels very nostalgic, but it also, to Rob's point, because people don't really do it anymore,

it does feel a little dated. I just don't think audiences care anymore. They're too short of attention spans now. Well, they want to get into the show, right? Yeah, it's like, I don't care who these actors are. I don't care who's telling me this story. Just tell it to me. Nobody even stays for credits after movies.

I watch people. after Broadway shows leave before the curtain call. People are just so selfish. It's crazy. People are like, eh, we know it's there. It just takes too long. Let's just get right to it. I mean.

But cursive actually makes your life easier. It's a whole other story. You will write faster if you learn cursive. Yeah. Wait, but tell us more about, I want to know about how, I do want to know about how Tyler and, you know, we got Cheryl Crow, but I want to know more about this. Oh, yeah. Cheryl Crow, we took advantage of an opportunity.

And then we were like, hey, this is really cool. instead of, and it was like a rush. So, and it, right, like, it was like a lame setup. It was like, she stops by the cafe for a coffee and is like a coffee for a song, you know? I was just like, I didn't know how to move. I was paralyzed because I've been listening to her since I was like 14 years old. She was my music idol other than Billy Joel. Did you get to connect with her much or not?

No, I mean, we just, no, because I was afraid to talk to her. We were all so scared. We were so intimidating. That's how I felt when I came to set because I was like, I'm not usually here. Like, you guys probably didn't even know I was there. I don't really remember. I just remember, I was actually really glad that I was also such a fanboy

that I was like, I'm just going to, can I come to work? Like, I remember asking, I'm not in the scene. Am I allowed to come? And they were like, well, yeah, you work here. And I remember just standing there and then being like, how do I explain why I'm here? I'm not in the scene. But it was such a relief, Lindsay, for Joy and I to have each other

because essentially the show had just started and thank god like we were in the corner being like what do you think we do we like say something to her we know we shouldn't we should like stand what should we talk we should we we should we okay we should be talking to each other and then it was like we were talking about what we should be talking about when Cheryl crow was looking at us instead of just talking it was so ridiculous and juvenile and embarrassing and sweet well now you know how people probably feel around you guys yeah she was so nice but like I'm glad we had each other hands to hold in the corner. Usually, yeah, when I'm on camera, I know what I'm doing. I feel like I can be in control of the seat in whatever way I need to. When she was on camp,

I felt like I was in her music video and just the sheer props of me having to like get money out of the cash register and hand her her coffee. I mean, thank God my character was supposed to be starstruck because I definitely was not behaving like a series regular on my own, you know, our show. It's just ridiculous. And then what about Tyler? Well, and just to jump off Cheryl Crow, I think they were like, wait, these labels and musicians might want to be on the show. Like, that's the coolest thing ever. Instead of having it be Karen's Cafe, like, let's create Trick so that when people come, they're playing a venue and it makes sense, right?

Oh, that's so great. Yeah, because you can't keep getting big artists to do what is essentially an open mic night. Yes, exactly. Wow. So Trick wasn't even a plan on anybody's schedule until we were like, oh, we could get real artists. They need a place to play. I think so.

just open up a bar. That's my understanding of it, yeah. Whoa. Wow. Yeah. Again, the character of the music itself and what you guys created, that is how the writers would write. They would watch what's going on with the characters and go, you know what?

I think this character's going to do this next. And so the music really had its own body in a way. Wait, and that makes me want to ask a question because I was wondering earlier, given the fact that you guys would make these playlists and essentially, suggest songs for scripts. I was like, oh, I wonder if we ever changed a script or wrote a scene around a specific song. Clearly, we wrote a whole scene around Cheryl Crow coming to sing. But did that continue to happen? Like, if you guys would read a script and some song would feel perfect, would the songs actually inspire the scenes as the show developed? Well, so I made, we made mixes.

So we had, we called it handpicked. So we would make a mix that was just like, stuff we generally thought was good for the show and then there was like the Peyton's mix and then there was a Karen's Cafe mix but that was usually just like indie singer songwriter to go in the background and you know yeah our producers would listen to them

and like I think write with them while listening to them so so there would be conversations like oh my gosh I really like that song I'm thinking of it for this thing I don't know that it would necessarily inspire a scene but you know June, you know, the whole schedule of like shooting kind of July to, or at least like...

End of April. Right, end of April. But my job continued through May. So yeah, the job was usually like almost like August to May. So in June, there was usually, like, I remember, I think it was after season. I don't know what year it was. But like, I just remember discovering the Frightened Rabbit album that like we used a bunch of songs off of. I can't remember the name of it right now.

But, like, I remember just, like, listening to it in May or June and, like, handing it over to them and being like, I think this is the sound of next season. Like, even for score, like, the representation was so cool. And then, like, a week later being like, yeah, I think you're right. Like, this is so cool. I love it. So there were things like that, right? And then there were things like, I would get a tip, like, hey, I think we're going to write in a character. Like, Peyton's going to sign an artist, right?

So with Kate Vogel, they're like, Peyton's going to sign an artist this year. I'd love some ideas of who you think would be good for it. So I like went away and like was like, you know, like looking up who I thought or like going into my iTunes when I used to listen to music and being like who would be cool for this and maybe talking to the labels being like, you know, would they be open to this or like who do you think, who has a new album coming that might want to promote it by being on the show? So for Kate's role, like, and then I, like, walked in to their office with, like, a bunch of CDs.

And I was like, okay, here is Susie Sue, who's an artist, like an independent artist. We had used a bunch of times. And then I was like, wouldn't it be cool if Haley from Paramore was like this girl, right? She felt very Peyton's vibe. But of course, so she was on the list. The label was like, she's not doing solo stuff. So, like, sorry. Yeah.

And then I remember, like, them being like, what about this girl, Sarah Borellis? And I was like, okay, I'll bring that album over. Anyway, so there were all these. And then Kate's album was in front of us, which really had a lot of songs. So part of what we listened for was like songs on the album that we knew would work for the show. Because, like, if you can't use the artist's music, then it doesn't make sense to put them on the show. Yeah. And Kate was managed by Debbie Wilson, who had managed.

Gavin previously. She was like, she knew the drill to, like, she knew the value. And Kate was young, too. Like, so she, like, fit the mold. And was obviously awesome. So that worked out really well. Yeah. Yeah.

So cool. She was on MySpace records. Like, that's like such a moment in time, right? MySpace. Oh, my gosh. So, so cool. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture.

It was a huge honor to become a television writer, because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for the kind of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls, became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world,

influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I imagine, I mean, to Rob's point about the length of a playlist, you have, I mean, you have a, like a national library length of playlists in your world, in your brain. In one way, I'm like, how do you ever even remember all the music? And then in this other way, I wonder for you. because you know music so well,

are there songs that immediately bring you back? Like, if you hear a song, you feel like you're back on one tree hill, you hear another song, you feel like you're on Smallville. Does music just pull you into all these kind of memories as you're out in the world? I mean, definitely. Just like you would, like when you're in a relationship and you have like songs from that time period, right? I actually, so I don't know if you guys know, but my, I, I lost my home and the palisades fired.

I'm like... I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. So I have lost all those CDs, but I did have in my car one of those... I still had a CD player in my car, but one of those things you put on your visor that has like 20 things. I have that and most of them are mixtapes from like, you know, or mixed CDs, right, that I made from like 2007 on or whatever. So those things, because I used to make them for myself to like, or I'd make them for the show. And then I'd also like take them home and listen and in my car.

So I do have those. And there's definitely songs that we didn't even use that like I just thought would be so right and tried to get in the show so many times. So like some of those bring back memories. I definitely have some favorite placements. I definitely also have some like heartache. There were, you know, we got, not everybody said. yes. Yeah, who did you, who were you after? This is what I wanted to ask you. I was dying, I was dying to know like, who is your white whale? Like, is there an artist or a track that you just

were never able to get? Well, I wouldn't even say, well, I guess a career white whale, I've never been able to license no doubt and I am a huge no doubt fan. We actually, season one, there was a scene where like, Brooke drives to the, or I don't know what season was, Brooke drives to the river court and her like blue bug, right? Yeah. And we had tempted in, no doubt, it's my life, which was big at the time. We did not get approval on that. It wasn't a, that was a kind of a throwaway moment.

It's not like the song hinged on the montage. Yeah. How did they go with direct, you know, it's so many incoming directors on the show, so many guest directors, it was a constant revolving door. Were there many times when a director, would really insist on their, like, music that they really liked. And you're like, this does not work. This is not what we should be doing.

But you had to sort of just let it go. Or was it always up to the producers at the end of the day to be like, Lunds me fix it? It was always up to the producers. I mean, that was the interesting thing, right? Like, the directors come in and out. So it's really up to the producers to keep the tone. I'm sure you felt that too from like, you know,

Prange and Hartley and those people who were there like every. So we definitely had, there was one director. who was very like everyone that was different right like some people were really into music and had strong opinions and others didn't and yeah there was only like one who was like super opinion about music but he was he had good music taste we just couldn't afford it all so yeah okay he was like in this scene we're going to use the Beatles again yeah so that that's actually something I really want to touch on because you know you've alluded to when I got to come and visit your office and it's what we were mentioning early in the conversation. You know, as directors, it's so exciting to

work with all your department heads and to plan amazing things with your camera department and figure out what equipment you're going to get to rent. Like, I remember when we were doing our seasons as directors, it was like, am I going to get a crane in my episode? And it was a really big deal to figure out your music. And I think especially for us, you know, whether it was cast directing or some of the folks you mentioned, Lindsay, like Greg, who directed, I think, maybe more episodes of our show than anyone because he was our on-site executive producer. You know, it was exciting for us to know the show so well, but also know our place and understand as directors. We were very new. And I know I said thank you at the time, but I want to reiterate

it. I'm still so tickled when I think about the fact that when I flew to L.A. for my first day in the editing room. I called you because A, I wanted to come in and really see how you did your job. And B, I was bringing one of my best friends, Jenny, who was shadowing me as a director, who now, by the way, is producing on like Marvel and Showtime and crushing. Dang. They grow up so fast. I'm like, I'm so proud of her. But at the time, her dream was to be a music supervisor. And you were so generous with your time because not only did you bring us in and go over song options with me and how things work and show us the bins and explain, you know, how you would get to these playlists you suggested for us as directors on these episodes.

But you answered all of our young person questions about work and getting jobs and all the things. And I remember when we left your office, you'd given Jenny a stack of CDs. I was like, please take them. Yeah. By the way, you probably were like, get this out of my office. But she was like, I can't believe Lindsay gave me all this music. And it was, it was just like, it's a memory of a time in my life that I will never, ever forget.

So from the professional side to the personal side, just thank you because you're a great coworker and you're also a really great mentor and friend. Oh, I mean, thank you. That's, I really appreciate it. Maggie Wolfe. Maggie Wolfe. It's a mysterious person. I remember feeling that way, right? Like, I remember, and I was still.

you know, kind of young enough to remember how that felt. Yeah. To, like, come in with so many questions. And to, like, it's, you know, I actually, I teach music supervision now. So I, like, I always tell my students, because now that I'm, like, so far into this, I'm like, if I say something that you don't understand, and it's even happened in this conversation, I'm like, oh, a spotting session. You're like, wait, wait, wait, let's talk about what that is.

Yeah. Like, stop me and ask me what it is because I am beyond the stage of remembering what I didn't know. but when you are close to beginning out, you kind of remember like, oh, what did I want to know? And I mean, I remember going to my first spotting session on Felicity. And I was like, and there was like a five-minute conversation about like, does the cue start on him or her? And I was like, whoa, like people really think about this stuff. It's a thing. So yeah, and to your point, Sophia, like, there was always music in the editor's cut. And then we would revise in the director's cut with what they wanted. than we would advise, like, and sometimes, but for me, it was important. I actually really liked connecting with the directors because the more music could be in a good

place before getting to the producers, the more the job is time. You know what I mean? Like, and actually to your original question of, like, how did you convince studio people to let you use indie artists? And I always say this, and I think we proved it multiple times on One Tree Hill. Like, if the song works in the scene, nobody's going to complain about it. like we had a couple times where we would temp with a bigger artist actually I have two examples one was like there was like a scavenger hunt episode in season two like Felix right and it begins

they're all around the table deciding what they're going to do well in like when I when I walked into the spotting session there was a green day song at the beginning of it and it was their massive hit and they didn't always license so um And we only have usually like a weak turnaround between like when we locked music and then when we mixed. And then the episode aired like a week after that. Like it was like opposite of how we do TV now. But I was like, I can't guarantee that Green Day is going to clear. So I need you to pick a backup.

And so I brought three options to like play to picture in the room. And we played one of them. And it was an indie band. And they were like, oh, we like this better. Forget about Green Day. And the same thing happened, Joy, when. The character of your mom passed away, when we used landslide, Fleetwood Mac. Yes.

We were like, there's like a 25% Fleetwood Mac's going to clear this. Like it's, you know, it's a huge song. It's precious to them. Sometimes they don't get back to you. So I was like, I need to walk away from the spotting session with a backup so that like, I'll take the time to clear it, but then I'll also clear this other song so that we have it at the end of the day. And the backup was Adele's Make You Feel My Love. And Joe DeBow, I think, it directed that episode because he took both to the mixed age and he was like, wait, I thought I love landslide, but I love this too.

Like, what am I going to choose? And he ultimately went with landslide. Landslide, of course. But that's like, I'm the best version of myself if I can find you a backup for the first song you wanted that you like even better, right? And the first one was an indie artist, too. So, like, that happened a lot. That's so cool, though. That's a really neat way to think about it.

And even as an actor, that resonates with me because it's so healthy as an artist to have a vision and then be willing to play and do something in a completely opposite way and see what works best. And that's really cool. Like, what a stage piece of advice to say, I'm the best version of myself if I can find you an option too that you might like even better. That's nice. That feels like really sparkly. Do, does everyone you know ask you to make them epic playlists? Because I know, I know the three of us are doing this, by the way. The number of times I want to be like, but wait, oh, can you just make us a list of the songs we've been talking about today?

Does everybody ask? What, for playlist? No, I mean, I definitely in college, I made a mix every semester, a mixed team. Yeah. Yes. So I did that for all my friends, which would sometimes be like a mixture of like what I thought was cool, but also like, what were the songs? we were listening to, you know. Wow.

Yeah. I feel like I don't make mixes that often unless it's for my shows. Yeah, because it's your job. It's like a massage therapist, right? Coming home and family asks for massage. And you're like, you know what? No. I just did this all day.

It's true. Like I do, like my son this morning was like, what are we going to listen to on the way to school? And I was like, dude, I do that all day long. You can pick, you know. Yeah, you pick, please. Our Sad Song Queen's podcast, like, part of the inspiration for it. is I some of these mixes that I would make for our producers there was one I made and they called

me and were like are you okay and I was like yeah why and they were like this is really depressing music like are you like we're worried about you and I was like oh yeah but like I'm fine I just really like depressing music like it's all good you're like have you seen what happens in your show I know right I know I was like it was it was sad but like my favorite moments were like ooh like you know, someone's dying? Like, amazing. We're going to find a general songs, you know? Well, actually, the flip side to Sophia's question then

is, are your friends constantly throwing music at you? Like, is your phone just blowing up with people? Be like, do you know this band? Have you heard the night game? Have you heard, like, Shore Drive? Have you heard, like, all of the, you know, they're just like throwing things at you all day long? I mean, not my friends, probably, like, my, like,

non-work friends are like not that into music. So they're just like, okay, whatever you say. You don't have to talk. They're like Rob. They're still listening to the same 30 songs. They're happy with whatever, like, Spotify throws them. And then I think my work friends wouldn't do that to me. oh that's good well so like i do a lot of work with another music supervisor laura web and so you know especially with like the sad song thing like we'll be we'll be like well have you heard this one or like oh my god i hope i have a scene for this or like this album's really good um but definitely you know i'm sure you guys kind of get this in some way but like you also every show is a little

bit different like one of the really fun things about one tree hill is we had so many characters and we would have an action sequence with like a basketball montage where we need something rocking or maybe like hip hop. Then we have this like quiet singer songwriter moment over here. But then we need like a pop song over there. So like we got to use so many different genres of music. And then sometimes you like I work on Virgin River and it's it's like the heart and soul of it is singer, songwriter and folk.

Yes. Right? So like I'm listening to a lot of music like that because that's what I need to listen to for my job. And I worked on a show called Shadowhunters and they were like. like nothing acoustic we want like all like it should have some form of electronic electric guitars yeah yeah wall-to-wall synth pop wait you clearly have a just an incredible recall for the work you've done so when you think about your nine seasons that you run one trail like when you think back on it

is there a scene or two that you were like especially proud of or when you watch you're like damn we really nailed that one yes so actually someone interviewed me in like 2012 and we're like what were your top favorite sinks and they they're still kind of the same um i really loved season two that whole plotline of joy going on or haley going on tour plus it was so cool that like the tour really happened and like yeah so cool but also i had that like i broke up with my college boyfriend because i was like gonna go pursue music like so i like that nathan haley storyline i was like i get it Haley, I get it. But so actually the song where she leaves, and he finds out that she's left for tour, is a six-minute montage.

And they had originally tempted in something we had already used, that we wouldn't use again because we'd already used it in a big montage. So I was like, okay, like, I literally sat down with the boom box and the TV and played songs to picture. And the song we used is keen. She has no time. And I was like, that album was great. So I was just like, let's see what's on this album. And I started it. It started with the scene.

And it's, Brooke, you're like running for student council. So you're giving that speech. Brooke, I just called you Brooke. I'm so sorry. Sophia. It's okay. Brooke is running for student council. Anyway, and I played it and it started and it built and built and it hit the moment

where he like throws her keyboard into the wall, which is so, like, intense and dramatic. And the lyric is she has no time, right? Like, she has no time for you now, right? Like, it was written for it. Yes. And so, like, that's one of those moments where I'm like, thank you, like, thank the Lord for making me, like, pick this CD up.

But, yes, when things work, start to finish. And actually, the weepies world spins madly on, which we use when Peyton spreads her mom's ashes, that was tempted in with something different. and that's actually like a two and a half minute montage so it wasn't like but it was tempted in with something and I was like this is good but I feel like we could do better so like I wonder if there's anything better out there and that was one and I brought it to the spotting session and you literally start it you play it and it like ends on like black right so that was another one of those moments and you know and then obviously the whole lead Zeppelin thing was just it wasn't

my idea. When a producer tense in Led Zeppelin, you're like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. They're all never clear. Like, at the time, they really had, that was the first network television show. Like, they had approved Sopranos, and that was it. And that's it. But basically, getting Led Zeppelin was a coup. We picked a backup. Like, we were, like, ready to go that it wouldn't clear. But it was so epic. I'm so glad it did. Like what, that was unbelievable. That was edited to the song, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And apparently they're like three writers and historically like maybe one would approve, but the other two wouldn't or two would approve, but then the third wouldn't.

And they all said yes. And I remember I was driving to Coachella and the publisher called me and was like, you'll never believe it. But they said yes. Oh, my gosh. So killer. That's amazing. I also bet for Led Zeppelin, I mean, A, the sequence was so incredible. and we got to use the whole song.

But talk about a way to introduce your amazing music to a younger audience. Like, it was perfect. Totally. And I think that was part of our pitch, obviously. And honestly, I hadn't been a huge Led Zeppelin fan, like, historically. But if I had heard that song, maybe I would have been. Like, I had a new go to the song before we used it.

Yeah. So good. So cool. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence.

That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why don't we ask Lindsay that listener question about the if One Tree Hill had a music festival? The one we just skipped on once community.

That's a great one, Rob, yes. Oh, am I going to have to list bands? Yeah. It doesn't have to be like long or thought out, Lindsay. You can just sort of like just rip a couple out. We're just doing a music festival. What bands for sure are you bringing in to do the One Tree Hill music festival? I mean, let's make it a wish list.

So it should be Gavin. It should be the Wreckers. Joy. Tyler, Kate, right? Yeah, all the usual suspects. Oh, yeah, Grace Potter. Great call. And then I would say Jimmy Eat World, Keene, Snow Patrol.

These are like seminal artists who we used early on. Oh, yeah, Angels and Airways, Thall Out Boy. Oh, my God. Oh, break back Jack's Manikin? Oh, Jack's Manikin. Right. I was there for that for a couple. I wasn't always on set, but I was there for that one, which was super fun.

And then I'd probably throw in, like, who I think today's, like, who would we use today, right? Like, who would that be? Which I'm trying to think if I can name anybody off the top of my head. I mean, I would say, Lord, Charlie X, X, X, X, Tila. I mean, if we're going wish list, I'm like, I'm really. Shooting for the stars here. Yes, totally. I would even do people like Aurora or like just people I'm indie rock.

I feel like Gracie Abrams is very in our wheelhouse now. Yes, yeah. I'm so out of touch that you all could be making up names right now. And I would just, I'm just going to believe you all that these are real people. Please give me some Benson Boone and Marin Morris. Yes. How about some Avet brothers too? Yeah, Avet brothers.

Yes. What's a great thing is we. would have those people next to like maybe people you hadn't heard of and always a great mix of things yeah so fun well let's spin a wheel guys this has been great lindsay i'm so glad we got you on the show thank you so much okay lindsay you clearly uh remember a good deal about the show so this week's question is most likely to win a cooking show this is characters and actors character and actor yeah yeah who cooked did we ever see anyone cook on the show? I mean, Brooke burnt the turkey. Yeah, it definitely wouldn't be

broke. I'd say Haley and Joy would be my answer. Yeah, you look like you could cook a mean meal. I'm a pretty good cook if I know what I'm doing and I'm focused on it. I don't know if I'd win the show. I feel like I could be creative and do some things that might be a little unexpected, but I also experiment too much and often it's a 50-50 with me when I'm cooking dinner. Like, it's like to the Chanel quote, always take off the last thing you put on, but you can't do that with food. Like, once it's on there. Oh, right.

Yeah. And they feel like that happens to me a lot. I'm like, this needs something. What does it need? And then I try something. I'm like, nope, that wasn't it. But now we're all the dishes were remit. So.

Millian mouth could have a cooking show too. They would have like a good. I would watch that. Yeah. Skills. Oh my God. Skills and Deb. Yes.

Oh, my God. Skills and Deb in the kitchen. Oh, my God. And her top is just always an apron. Wait, that would. be like the Netflix one where where they don't ever make things well what's that show? Nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it.

Devin's skills on Nailed it. Done. It would just be funny if every episode they never finished the dish because they always end up just like making out and falling off camera. It's like they always start but it's just never quite gets there. I feel that I didn't really answer how Tyler

got passed but I know like we we're going to say that for when you come back Lindsay. All good. This is what we do to lure you back. that's right we do need that we need that he was so talented and you guys are so awesome this was really fun thank you for having me thank you so much lindsay this has been enjoying overdue thanks for coming out lindsay all right have a good one thank you bye guys see you later bye hey thanks for listening don't forget to leave us a review you can also follow us on

Instagram at drama queens o t hush or email us at drama queens at iHeartRadio.com see you next time It's all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl. Drama queen cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. Smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you're tough girl. You could sit with us, girl.

Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Drama, drama queens, drama queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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