Drama Queens - This One’s Cursed • EP116

Episode Date: October 11, 2021

The ladies are sharing their true feelings about this episode. There’s bad. There’s ugly. Is there any good!? Yes. Sheryl Crow!"Are you Strong Enough" to love Tree Hill despite this week’s flaws?"All I Wanna Do" is find out what went on with Deb, because she "Can't Cry Anymore". We know Peyton and Lucas are end game but this week they have major “My Favorite Mistake" energy. The Drama Queens won't hold back because they know "Everyday is a Winding Road" and sometimes you have to get lost to get found. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Guys, welcome to another episode of Drama Queen's.

We just watched the worst episode so far. Let's just cut to the chase. I need wine. Yeah, listen, we're all opening bottles of wine because it's too much to bear. This was episode 16. It was called First Cut is the Deepest. And it's a deep, nasty cut. I'm embarrassed that this is the episode we had Cheryl Crow come on.

Like, she had to have read. this script. Oh, we were so excited when we saw the title for this episode because we're like, yay, it's the Cheryl Crow episode. It aired March 2nd of 2004. The synopsis is that Nathan must choose which parent to live with after Dan and Deb's divorce. And Lucas meets a newcomer who has deeper ties to Tree Hill than expected. This is going to be a long core, friends.

Hold on. Yeah. Incidentally, we are drinking our Fitvine wine. Thanks, guys. So this, yeah, this was an embarrassing episode. And we got a lot of information that we'd been looking for, but boy, did we have to sift through some shit? We got one, we got one piece of information we'd been looking for, and we got a lot of repeat exposition. Yeah.

This was like an entire episode that could have been condensed into two scenes, I feel like. There was nothing new. We didn't learn anything new. It was dripping with misogyny, as Sophia said, while we were watching. the episode. And we introduced this new character played by Emmanuel Vosier, who we all love. She's so fun. But it just seemed kind of so random. And then, of course, we learn at the end that she's Jenny's mom. But that piece of information plus the Deb piece were really the only things that we got out of this episode. It's so strange to me. Oh, and the Dan and Keith contract thing.

Yeah, yeah. That was so just like, blip. We'll get into all of it. Um, I, I have trouble with this episode so much. And we're going to get into it. I think it's important to remember. It was 2004 at this point. And the rules for what boys did on TV was very, very different back then. So, so for all the people out there that are like, no, you're making fun of Lucas. First of all, he's terrible in this episode. But second of all, we are looking at this through a lens of, of 2021 and we are grown-up ladies and we are allowed to just wag our finger at this because it is gross. So let's let's get into it. This felt to me like the height and this was as you said Hillary, this is the height of trying to compete with Gossip Girl and the O.C. When they were on the air. Yeah, this was deep O.C. It was a lot of salacious. There was, it seemed like maybe not a lot of effort put into the dialogue. Which is frustrating.

You can tell in the first scene when we're all in the quad. And I think none of us are really, I'm not committing to my dialogue. I'm like, I'm going to say these words, because if I don't say them, then we've got to do it again. But they're so clunky and weird. And it's like, yeah, it was just a strange scripting. I mean, listen, everybody, for you guys who are listening along and you're like, I don't want this to be a downer, I don't want to just listen to you guys complain. I get it.

I don't want to complain either. So we're going to find our nuggets in here. We're going to find our golden nuggets and the things that we love. Are we going to go mining? Let's go mining. But, you know, it is important to acknowledge when something was not up to snuff, like not up to standard. And it makes us appreciate the moments that were great on our show so much more when we can compare it to moments like these. This is a dud.

It's really true. And I think there's really something to that. Like, you know, we, we watch the episode and then we always take a snack break. In tonight's case, it was a, let's all grab a glass of wine break. Anna Casidia. Anna Casidia. Don't forget. I have curry.

I was Joy, before you came back, I was telling Hill that I, the episode was so terrible that I just stress ate my whole dinner while we were watching it. We watched you. I was like, but it's actually really funny because I ran in the other. their room and Grant was like, how was it? And I was like, it's the worst episode we've done so far. Yeah, by far. If there are any fans out there that think that episode 16 is their favorite episode, like, please tell us. Because I'd love to know why. I've never heard anyone say that they love this episode. I would like to talk about Deb. The best performance of the episode. The best. She was great. Hands down. Yeah. I was really bothered that this was her big secret,

that she fell in love with another man while she was married to someone who is abusive, narcissistic, just torturing her, mentally, emotionally, constantly, using her son against her. You know, we've seen Dan's behavior. And the fact that as a human being, she would get, she would have a need to be loved and adored and all the things that she deserves as a grown woman and that she would fall into that with someone else naturally. I mean, I'm not excited that anyone's marriage is falling apart ever or an affair or anything.

But the fact that that was the idea of her big, scary, dark secret when he's just so awful to her. I don't know. Help me. Talk me through this. And that they wrote it in a way where it was the thing she could never reveal because she would be the bad one, not the abusive husband who's financially controlling, who, by the way, has almost, if not definitely, cheated on her before.

Yeah. Like, the idea that it would make her unlovable, she'd be shunned. Even the way that the writers wrote Nathan's dialogue after the reveal. Nathan's response. Oh, my God. You are the reason Dad is like this with me.

You caused him to torture me. You made Dad act like this. When we saw Dan's whole family, we saw the episode with Royal. We know where he comes from. We get it. And the fact that, Oh, heaven forbid, a woman, cheated, she, excommunicator.

Listen, y'all heard me in the last episode, I don't care. I don't, like, in an affair, I'm cheering on a Deb Scott affair because, one, it's her taking her future into her own hands. What really bothered me is how Barbara played this really well, because she walked into the room with Nathan and was terrorized by the idea of having to. to admit this. And so what that informs us is when Dan found out that she was leaving him for someone else, he threatened her so severely that she panicked and came back. You know, like, this was done in 2003 in a time when you could divorce your husband and still have custody of your child, whether that's shared custody or sole custody, whatever. But whatever he said to her when she announced I love someone else

was enough for her to be so scared she came back. And she said it. Yeah. She said when I realized I could lose you, I came back. Why would she lose him? Like, that doesn't make any sense. But, you know, in whatever way, Dan would do what Dan does and threaten her and say she was an unfit mother and tell lies about her. Like, we've seen him do it already.

That's why he was living with him. She wasn't willing to lose Nathan. And then for Nathan to say, for them to have written, let's clarify, this is the writing, for them to have written that Nathan's reaction is, all of this is your fault? Like, oh, I didn't like it. It really, to me, I was like the reek of misogyny in this. It's so gross. Hey, if this is a triggering storyline for anybody that's listening, if you're in a bad spot,

there are resources. And the mythology that, like, you'll lose your kids and that your life is over and you're, a scorned woman, like, all of that's bullshit, you know? There are great resources out there, and all you've got to do is Google them. Find your safe space, but it is always better to choose safety and happiness and joy. And I hate that Deb didn't do that, and now maybe some of her behavior in the later seasons is making sense because we're seeing the trauma unfold. And I didn't recognize it as a younger viewer.

Me either. I didn't know that that is what happens in marriages because I was a kid, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Meanwhile, Lucas, by the way, gets to – and look, I'm sorry. I know you guys don't want us bagging on Lucas, but look, it's good for a character to have an arc. And right now, his flaws are glaring, and that's okay. But what bothers me about this whole scenario is on one hand we're seeing Deb, who feels deeply

sorry about this and she's, you know, trying to figure out – trying to find her way in life. And she's in an abusive relationship. Let's make no qualms about that. And then we've got Lucas, on the other hand, who's been playing the field with both girls and gets to kind of get off Scott Free. Yeah, they're mad at him, but, like, his mom is all like, oh, it's okay. Don't worry. Everything's going to be fine. You know?

And then, oh, and he gets to take home a cute girl from a bar and, like, mess around with her and have fun at the carousel. It's so double standard. This episode is the boy fantasy. It is absolutely the boy fantasy because, yeah, Dan, his control over everyone. is on full display in this episode. He's got control over Deb. He's got control over Nathan, giving him the car. He's like, where's my thank you?

He's got control over Lucas, because I saved your life. Where's my thank you? And he's got control over Keith now. Yes. And so that's his fantasy. And then Lucas, from the first scene that we see him, like, run into Brooke, and he's like, we didn't mean to hurt you. Like, first of all.

We? We? Bro. Peyton was saying, no, no, no. no, no, no, no, no, no. You pick her at her most vulnerable when she thinks her dad is dead and, like, get her to admit,

okay, yes, I like you. What do you want from me? And then convince her that your soulmate's, like, it's got to be us. And then you drag her into the best friend fight. I just, I own Peyton's mistakes, but, like, it's a hard one for me to swallow when he's like, hey, man, it was me and Peyton this whole time.

We were just, you know, plotting against you. sorry. Well, and I think what's hard to watch, you know, because like you said, when we were kids trying to figure out how to do this, we were going to work and doing the things written for our characters. So I was like, you're both betrayers and this, that, and the other. But watching it now, I feel for these young girls in a, in like your older aunt who you asked the questions to that you never would ask your mom. I have that kind of energy for all of these girls. And my God, it makes me crazy that we didn't see at the time that what was happening. And again, guys, we have to separate anybody's, like, you know, personal adoration of the show

from what was written for us to do. And the writers wrote a very long and very toxic and very gentle, pressuring. Lucas pressured Peyton in a way that's not okay. A guy who loves you isn't supposed to do that to you. And the betrayal that comes out of that for him to then throw on her evenly, it does, from Girl Camp, it feels upset. What do you mean when you say the pressure that he's putting on her? Like what Hillary's talking about, how that character was written for episodes and episodes and episodes.

We're meant to be together. We're meant to be together. You do want to be with me, right? He goes at her physically when she is in a state of almost dissociative trauma. Her dad might be dead. She has to go to the morgue and see a dead body. Yeah. And it's just so, it's a kind of pressure.

It is, again, and I know this stuff can be very triggering, but it's, we've all been taught to fear the, like, scary guy in the alley, the, like, horrible thing that can happen. You know, a sexual assault, like, Law and Order SV. you style. And what we've come to find is that so many more women who experience that, experience it from an intimate partner or as a date rape scenario. And the energy of this, while I'm not saying that that's what was written for Lucas to do to Peyton, what I am saying is it's on the spectrum of intimate partner abuse. And it's really hard to watch. It's taking advantage of someone who needs a friend really bad. You know, I don't doubt,

like Lucas and Peyton are endgame. They obviously saw something in each other. They found safety in each other. It is a very messy, bumpy road to get there. And they're teenagers. They're teenagers. You're supposed to screw up. But what he is doing is not okay in 2021.

And he admits it in this episode, at the bar. You know, we caught so much for calling out Lucas in these episodes for doing this exact thing. And then literally he's in the bar with Nikki and she says, do you got a girlfriend? And he says, well, I had two. You know, like, what? He admits it. So for all of you who gave me an earful, I see you and I raise you a night of the blue post where he admits it in this episode. So I feel vindicated personally. Absolutely. And listen, I like what you said. You know, these two characters, the really magical stuff we see in the beginning is why Lucas Peyton or Endgame. It's why they wind up in a good place. But I think what's hard for us as women

who, as we've also talked a lot about, it's 2021. We have more language, more understanding, more data. We understand the nuance of abusive relationships and all of these things, these themes we're talking about in the show. And to look back on it, it's not just like cringy. It's hard to watch Because we see things that are toxic being modeled as romantic. Yeah. I think it's – yeah. And it's also like, guys, you know, we also saw behind the scenes from people who were in the position of writing this stuff a lot of toxic behavior, behavior, communication, just outlook on the world, outlook on women. We saw all that happening in real time, in real life.

And knowing that those people were the ones, some of those people were the ones in charge of writing the material that we were performing, it is a little harder for us to just look at it objectively and say, oh, Lucas was blah, blah, blah, or just this or just that, because we know what was behind the personalities writing some of this stuff. And so if it seems like we're exaggerating or, you know, blowing it out of proportion, we have a behind, we have a behind. the, you know, the scrim perspective. The Great Oz. Yeah, I was going to say, pay no attention to the man by the room. But please do. Like, please do see. Yeah.

You know, this is a little bit more than just what was on screen. And so I think that's a lot of what we're reacting to. And it's also a good thing for people to think about in real life, too, as they're going about their relationships and scenarios where, I don't know if it's partnerships or friendships or whatever just to recognize that there's always it's always a little bit more than just what you see on the surface yeah that's a good point joy i'm glad that you said that yes it's you know the one it was so dark for the first few scenes of this episode because we were all just grimacing and then it was the scene in the cafe with joy where she she says the line it was just like old

times minus one spleen and I felt so good. Like Haley did not have anything to do this episode. Everybody else is like dealing with like chaos and having sex on carousels. And Haley's just like, hey, you guys, show a crow's in town. Show crow. Did you know show a crow's in town? I wonder who's going to guest star in this episode. Interesting.

Also, let's just be real. First of all, the hilarity of trying to win. tickets on eBay and you're like the eBay DSL. DSL. Yeah, I've got a high speed internet connection. Sweet baby Nathan. Oh my God. Wow. And the like purity of the less technical times matched to you at the end when she's like, how much do I owe you for the coffee when Nathan's like you're being so awkward and you go, uh, a song, a cup a song. Like he's so bold. You're so bold. Can you imagine someone actually saying that to Cheryl Crowe?

I love that about Haley. I love that about her. She totally would do that. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for. for a kind of years, you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence.

That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare and, frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up.

You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Nefok, from Prologue, and Pushkin Industries, this is Fiasco, Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yes, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Has anyone pulled that on you in real life? Has anyone tried to barter with you? No. I don't know what I would do. Somebody was like, if you sing for me right now, I'll give you. you whatever blah blah blah if i give you this curry joy this curry that you enjoyed for dinner for free will you sing us the song free curry i'd have to be really in the mood i'd have to be in the mood but charl crow was in the mood she was so sweet when she came in um a lot of people were

there everybody kind of we all showed up we were hiding in corners actually guys i said that when we watched the episode for everybody listening at home we all were shocked because that Karen's cafe was more packed than it's ever been for anything, and then we realized in the scene that it was supposed to be empty. But we all remember that night as like a hundred people being there because we were. We were just hiding off camera. Yeah. Where were we? I feel like we were all tucked away in the corners of actually over where the table was, where Moira and I and Chad all had that one scene earlier. I think everybody was kind of on that side. And we were like, people were sitting on the bar and behind the bar because the dollies, the big pieces of equipment, you

all the cameras rest on. They're kind of like big heavy wagons. The dollies were in front of the actual countertop. And so we were all, I mean, people might as well have been hanging from the rafters trying to watch her sing. She finally thought we were such dorks. How much money did they have to pay Cheryl Crow to come on to season one of One Tree Hill? I'll tell you one thing that was in her deal that I know had to have been in her deal

was that she scored the whole episode. Like they used her, I don't know if she scored it, but like they used only her. music for the whole episode. It was only her songs. Yeah. That makes sense. So smart. Yeah, I would have done that. And her guitarist, Jeff, is somebody actually I ended up writing with a couple years later, a year or so later, when I got my contract with Epic Records. I remember that. Yeah, they hooked me up with that guy, Jeff. And he was such a sweetheart. We wrote some fun stuff together. And I was just super stoked to be working with anybody that had worked with Cheryl. Oh, my God. Besides Billy Joel, she was like my mecca.

Did you use her music as audition songs? Because I'm just. I did. Oh, and karaoke songs. Oh, girl! Oh, yeah. I remember there was like a girl group that was getting like formulated in the 90s in D.C. at the Kennedy Center. That's where they were doing the auditions. And I had to go audition, right? And my first audition song was like an ace of bass song. And they were like, you did it, kid. You did it. You're coming back for a callback, you know? And it was so gross and like predatory. And but then my callback song. was all I want to do is have some fun. And it's so cool that she came on our show because she imprinted on us, what, in like our middle school years, right? Naturely. You know, she's a really big deal. And I wish that we'd all gotten to hang out with her

because she would have been one of those older chicks that would have imparted some wisdom. I can feel it. I think so, too. I wish we could have asked her some questions. Oh, I wish so, too. I mean, I wish we had been able to have more time with her and just chat. But she was really sweet.

And I think we were all really nervous. I was way too nervous to talk to her about music or anything, but I should have. She had an album, I think it wasn't the Globe Sessions because that was the super popular one that really broke out. But she had one that was kind of darker. I think maybe it was just called 1996 or it was just called Cheryl Crow. Well, that song is so heartbreaking. First Cut is the deepest. Like, I've cried to that song.

I want to say there was a breakup. during our One Tree Hill tenure that involved that song breaking my heart over and over again. And yeah, she was amazing. You know what else I loved in this episode? I loved the, I mean, I know it's a rough time. You know, Peyton and Brooke, by the way, winding up drinking together. Cheersing that Lucas went home with another girl is so, again, the writing is so insane. But Hillary, we did a great job in that scene today.

You know, here's the thing, if we got to hang out at Blue Post all night, we had a great time. We had a great time. It was fine. We were, like, definitely playing ski ball when they were changing camera lenses, for sure. But I did love the kind of sweet, quiet moment with our other favorites. We were robbed with Peyton and Jake. And you making the mobile for Jenny was really, really cute. But again, so this show, like, sped through something.

stuff, you know? Joy made such a good point when we were watching the episode. She's like, you know, you talked about Succession. Yeah, one of my favorite shows on HBO. So what's what I love about Succession, and it's not everyone's cup of tea, no show is, but what I really love about succession is that you get to know the characters and even though they all sort of have these, they're all kind of bad guys in a way. They're awful. Yeah, yeah, but you, you fall in love with them because of their humanity, because it takes so long to see things unfold that in between all the bad choices, you see the good possibilities. I mean, it's the reason that we people fall in love with unhealthy partners, right? Because you see all the good possibilities right before

the horrible choice that they inevitably make. There's seven good days before that eighth bad day. Right. But what's great about it is it draws you in. It triggers that part of the human brain that loves a cliffhanger because we want to solve a mystery. We want to see what's going to happen. And TV has really leveled up. And why Succession is an example of that is because they really take a long time. It's a slow burn to reveal all of these story points and the plot points as they twist and turn. And the more I watch our show, the more I'm getting whiplash with all of the, how fast everything is happening. And it's a shame because we've got good actors, we've got interesting characters, we've got a beautiful setting and a great setup for story.

But because we're blowing through it so fast, we're missing out on the anticipation and the, you know, all the excitement that you get from just slowly wandering through a journey and then, boom, getting surprised by a twist and turn. How good, how juicy would it have been if for two or three whole episodes we saw Keith stressing about money, going through other avenues of trying to get a loan, admitting it to Karen, her looking at her finances, figuring. hearing out what would happen if she took out a second mortgage on the cafe, him saying, I'm not going to let you do it. The slow burn, the slow burn, the slow burn. Dan finding out ahead of time and like plotting and waiting to see. And what if Dan let people think like he really was going to do the right thing? What if we thought for two episodes, Dan was going to do the right thing? And then the, oh, he's your boss, that guy showed up. It would, it would hurt so much worse. It would be so much deeper. And what about introducing Nikki?

three episodes before with like these weird little moments and she's in and out and we're like oh we've got this new character and who is she and why is she here and end the reveal yeah it's just a lot i mean do you guys think it was because we were constantly on the bubble and always afraid that like they were always afraid that we were going to get canceled so they were just trying to shove everything in 100%. Yeah but here's what's also insane is that now that we've spoken to so many other people who were on shows in the same era as our show everyone was always told they were on the bubble and it was a ploy. It wasn't a real thing.

That sucks so bad, guys. It's like finding out about Santa. It's just like, what? What are you talking about? We could have been having fun instead of stressed out. Instead of been so scared all the time. Well, so the Jake of it all is hard for me because I see how much fun I'm having with Greenberg.

I see how much fun Peyton and Jake are having together. But Peyton literally just dive-bombed her. one friendship, like her one true love, Brooke, you know, that relationship has imploded over Lucas and Peyton's already like watching movies with Jake. I just, it, as a former teenage girl, I was a teenage girl, believe it or not, when you were in love with someone, you don't automatically get your head turned by someone else when it falls apart. There is a mourning process. And I think having so many male writers

was a detriment because that process was never really explored. You know, Brooke just goes straight to like scorched earth and is like, I'm going to destroy everything and you're the loser and you're a loser and you're a loser and you're a loser. You know,

Peyton went from being with Nathan to being sort of with Luke right away and then now all of a sudden it's like this Jake thing is happening and it's like, is her only value in being with a person like being with a dude um that's hard that's i mean i'm sure that's something that we deal with in real life but i would have appreciated if jake had gotten the respect he deserved and there would have been a little bit of breath between the you know

chapters of dudes yeah that's a great point i i do think it's interesting when people say you know why is representation so important? It's stuff like this. You know, if there had been more women in positions of power, I think maybe that would have been different. I think maybe someone would have said, you got to give her a minute. Like, she's going to go home and cry into her pillow. Right?

That's the scene we're missing. Like, where's Peyton at home weeping over this? Yeah. By the way, where was Brooke's opportunity to like weep over this? Yeah. Brooke never cries, right? Like, at home by herself. And it's weird.

And it's like, and if she's not going to cry, if she's the kind of person that's going to refuse, I won't allow this to get me so sad or whatever. I want to know about that. And I want to know why. Why is she like that, you know? Also, did you guys have nosy teachers at school? No. No, I had a camp counselor once who I thought was sweet. Like, she was invested a little bit more than others, but I didn't have nosy teachers.

My teachers knew every boy that I kissed, every boy that I talked to. What? Like, my teachers always knew what I was involved in. It's kind of great. Oh, it was so great. And when it would go sideways, like, they were completely invested in it. Like, and it was incredibly sweet, you know, and so they would pull you aside lovingly and, like, try to give you some good advice and, you know, steer you in the right direction.

There's nobody at Tree Hill High that is saying either to the girls, like, babe, this ain't worth it. this ain't it. Or conversely, like saying to Lucas, dude, you were trying to date two girls at once. Like, that's gross. Don't do that. You know, White is just concerned about his position on the team and their winning record, you know? You know what? I wonder if that's why it lands on us and made us all so upset watching this. Because there is no one, not only holding any of these kids to account, but even just giving them advice. I mean, you said it. Even Karen's like, oh, kid, cute. Oh my God. That's the worst. Her son. Okay. So at the end of this night, Lucas has, has pissed off both girls. He's gone missing. He left his phone at home, so he's

unreachable. He has gone to a bar. He's wreaking of alcohol. He's drinking on his pain meds. He goes and he has sex with a stranger on a carousel in a mall breaking an entry. And then when he comes home... He has way too much bronzer on. For God's sake. When he comes home, his mother doesn't say, where the hell were you? Why do you smell like beer? Why do you smell like this cheap perfume, you know?

She's like... He gets away with it. She's like, Luke, I'm so glad we've had this talk. This was productive. Like wherever my son is right now, ain't happening, bro. Not happening. No way. No.

God. How do we fix it, you guys? I mean, how do we fix it, you guys? we like how do we look with rose colored glasses on this episode well i don't know if we look on this episode with rose colored glasses but i will say it helps me to know where we're going yeah it helps me to know who these characters turn into it helps me to know that even though there was a clearly like misogynistic abusive gross lens on this episode yeah our show does supersede that. It does learn over the years to advocate better for women and for us.

Not always. Not, you know, we are very honest about the flaws here, but I have to say that that's kind of the only way I can deal with it. And I will say, I will say. The one sort of stellar moment for me in the mess of how so many people get treated in this episode, I actually did think there was great writing in the scene where Lucas comes to Brooke. Oh, yes, yes, yes. You crushed it. That's a good scene. You know, we, I was going to put it out there.

We had been pushing back for the first 15 episodes of this season. We were like, don't take our clothes off and don't, like, don't make us do weird stuff. And this episode felt a little bit like, okay, you girls want to be the prudes? cool we'll let you be the prudes and we'll bring in someone else and the performances that came out of that between barbara and between you rip and lucas a new asshole and between joy being this like great plucky best friend that is like why are you being so weird you know that scene in the cafe between you and lucas and karen is fantastic you know you kept the levity of the show going and so i like watching the female performances in spite of what was on the page. It makes me feel good about what we did as a unit. Me too. And it's interesting to find, like you said, Joy,

the rose-colored glasses for me are the winds inside of the mess. And kind of the eye of the storm of this for me is a girl finally beginning to know her worth. And when Brooke looks at Lucas and says, I used to feel inferior to you. Yeah. Oh, great. And she realizes that she let all these,

ideas. She felt small around this boy. She felt like she wasn't smart enough or good enough or well-read enough or didn't know enough about music. And she just looks at him and is like, but I'm a good person and you're not. Right now, yeah. Yeah. And I was just like, God, that's a win for girls who've been through whatever version of this. And I don't know, that might, if we're doing roses and thorns and the whole episode is a thorn, that would be my rose. I love it. Do you know what my roses? Nikki in the bar with her pickup lines was so dreamy for me. When she says, nice eye contact, that was a pickup line that I'd never heard before, friends.

Me neither. No. Yeah. No. I've also never seen that magic trick before. Wait, but here's the thing. Somebody in the writer's room was like, I know a magic trick. We got to work it into the episode.

This is hot. 100%. 100%. Somebody's kid did it in science class. They brought it into the writer's room and showed everybody and they were like, we got to put this in this show. And also, she's just playing with matches the whole time. She's a pyromaniac.

She was a pyromaniac. Sophia, while we watched that, was like, she's bad. She plays with fire. She's bad. Well, because you were like, why does she keep lighting things on fire? And I was like, it's how we know she's bad. Like, who did this? So great.

But by the way, hats off to. Emmanuel. I mean, good God. We love her. And she came in and she just, she committed to everything, but you can see on her face that she always felt like she had the upper hand. Yeah. Yeah, she always felt in control.

She was. And, you know, it's funny because we had been pushing back and we had been saying we feel really uncomfortable. And the big threat was, well, we'll bring in somebody else. And Emmanuel was like, these girls are little girls. I'm a grown-up. And she was playing someone over 18. You know, that's the difference.

Yeah. And she was like, I like myself. I look badass. I feel great about this. And we were like, oh, my God, she's amazing. More power to her. We love her. I think they thought we were going to hate her.

And instead, we loved her. I think we were all, like, drawn to her. Oh, yeah. I had lunch with her one time. And she was so, like, just in the middle of the shoe, we just went out and grabbed some lunch. And she was like, she's just so interesting. so well-traveled, so well-read.

She's very magnetic. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I really liked her. I liked her a lot, too. Why didn't we keep her? Well, you know, who knows? So, ha-ha, jokes on them. My roses also broke at the door.

I loved, I just loved that moment. I really did. And it still spoke to the girl inside of me that gets nervous around men I'm attracted to. And I should, like, my tongue swells up six sizes because I don't know how to talk. And I'm like, well, I don't know what to do with myself. Wait, is that your tell? Is that how we know you like somebody now when we're all together? All right.

We're on to you now, Joy. No, it doesn't actually. But I do get, I do kind of clam up and I get, I just start to feel, I don't know. It's like it's a little girl thing of feeling inferior and feeling like I'm not good enough for whatever reason. I'm working on it. But I loved that moment at the door. That really was so cool for me. to watch and it still spoke to me even all these years later left it you did a really good job with

that sof that was yeah thanks and we were all so cold and stressed out this episode i can see the stress on all of us in this episode and guys like knowing what a wet north carolina winter feels like and all of our hands are in our pockets and our bodies are just like super tense and we can't move our mouths. It's just, Cursed episode. We'll call this the cursed episode. That'll be the title of the podcast.

I love that. This one is cursed. Cursed. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer,

because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind of two years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories,

such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What I told people, I was making a podcast about Benghazi. Nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why? Benghazi, the truth became a web of lies.

It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith political warfare and, frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together. Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy? Benghazi is a rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20. the years. I'm Leon Nefok from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco,

Benghazi. What difference at this point does it make? Yes, that's right. Lock her up. Listen to Fiasco, Benghazi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do we have any listener questions? Oh. That's a great idea. Yeah. Okay, this one's from Alexa. Alexa asks, I've always wondered what it was like. like for each of you. When the show grew in popularity, what was the most overwhelming part of your stardom? Was there anything you had to change about your daily routines? Oh, interesting. I was, I mean, I don't know. We were living in Wilmington, so it was a little different. Sophia, you were in L.A. more than any of us. Was L.A. a different, like? No, L.A. was actually

always easier just because there's more industry and people seem to care less. I can certainly go first because I think I'm probably the person with the worst social anxiety. Baby, we'll take care of you. I'm like, outside is hard. That was always really hard for me because there was this, what I realized was that there was an expectation for me to be like loud and into it and wanting to party like Brooke. And I love to go out and adventure with groups of people I know.

but the um the the the the inward bound from strangers was really hard for me and i i actually that apartment that i loved so much i had to move oh that's right people people figured out that i lived there and then i could never get into my home without someone literally standing in between me and my front door and when you're a single girl being alone for the first time it's so scary It made me feel really, really unsafe, and I still feel like deeply unsafe when just normal boundaries aren't respected, but that was pretty scary. So, yeah, I mean, my daily routine was I had to move out of my apartment and move somewhere else. So that was kind of a bummer. Hillary, did you have any?

Well, I think Peyton helped me establish boundaries because I'd been the VJ at MTV that would, like, go out and Times Square and be in the crowd and I was always with people and it was not a big deal when people would be touching me. And I will say that like post 9-11, I probably had some PTSD about it. Big crowds became really scary to me because it was a threat. It was like a danger. And I did never think that I would be the thing that a crowd would collect around that like us filming together would be the thing. Because before I was always the person just covering the crowd if that makes sense. I was peripheral. And so when we kind of got thrust into the center of things, that was terrifying because there wasn't ever an exit strategy. And I'm always the person that's

looking for an exit strategy. And so that was kind of weird. But because Peyton was so confrontational and so flip, you know, it afforded me the luxury of being able to do that in real life. And so if someone was crossing boundaries, I could say, hey, fuck you. And like, they laugh because I was in character and it was what they wanted, you know? And so it gave me a lot of freedom to be ornery in a way that was protective, which I still utilize that. I'm like, naturally. I wish I had that luxury. Yeah, you were the nice girl. I know everybody expected Haley to be so nice, but I also grew up with a lot of issues with boundaries, but my way of dealing with it was not to, I would go on the offense and like, I would, I was rude. I was, I was just

like, don't invade my space, leave me alone. Don't, you know, I don't. And I think also, I was a New Yorker before I, before I got this show. I mean, I had lived in L.A. for a year, but I grew up in Jersey and in the city and, like, I was, felt like a New Yorker. And in New York, people aren't, weird about it. It's just like, hey, girl, I watch you on my stories. You know, like, love seeing you. Hey, how about. I watch you on my story. Yeah. You're like, what's up? You know, and you just say, hey, what's up? And you keep on walking. But having people, yeah, find out where you live, follow the van home, which happened a lot in Wilmington, you know, people in restaurants coming up and talking to you in the middle of your meal and you're trying to have a private conversation. And I didn't know how to handle it. I didn't know what to do. And my answer to. feeling suddenly forced into a situation I didn't want to be in was to shut it down immediately. I didn't have the tools to learn how to be gracious about it or, you know, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. You know, I'm just having a private moment right now, but I'd love to come talk with you afterward, you know, or whatever.

Yeah. I didn't have those tools. I didn't know. There was no way to teach us that. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that was hard. It was a long lesson to learn.

just don't know what to do. What do you do? And I don't know. It's awkward. Yeah, it, it takes a long time to learn what those boundaries are. And by the way, we're all pleasers. All three of us are pleasers. And so it is hard. It's really hard. And it's hard also to learn how to set a boundary and then not lose sleep for the next three nights feeling guilty about it. Oh, yes. You know? And I think I finally had to realize if, you know, a friend of mine said this to me was like if you worked at a tech company and eight people were over your shoulder tapping you on the shoulder going what are you doing what are you doing what are you doing you'd be like stop it yeah but like for some reason when you're an entertainer you're not

supposed to do that and so I had to learn what what my boundaries were like I'm not going to get up from my meal with my family but if you're here when we're done I'll see you at the door like yeah things that could create that but it's also you've got I mean it might be like you you you could be nice to the first three people and then the fourth person and then the fifth person and by you get to the time you get to the seventh person in the day and you're just like tired of being interrupted and maybe you're having a hard day and maybe there's some crazy shit happening in your life it's just oh my god that's joy that's the worst when you've got shit happening in your life which by the way we were in our early 20s there was shit happening in our life every other

day and so having to do that and also be like pleasing and like hey everybody yeah of course want to take a picture. I loved taking pictures with people, but then I also, I mean, I don't think it's a secret. I started smoking, too, because I realized that if I was smoking, no one would talk to me. And I was like, oh, really? Oh my God, Joy. What? What's this magic trick? When I would hang out, because Peyton can do bad things, because Peyton Sawyer is a bad girl. Her and Nikki should have fallen in love instead of falling in hate. Um, so that's the thing. It's like, and I wasn't even smoking half the time i was just like holding it because when you're doing that you're unapproachable right but if you're just standing outside looking at your phone or like doing whatever you're totally

approachable and so yeah if you want to carry around a pack of virginia slims and look and look real unapproachable that's the trick wow yeah i had no idea that's a good that's a good trick yeah sometimes people will post pictures of those days on the internet and i'm so embarrassed but i'm also like you know what? I was 22. What do you want from me? That was a mess. Yeah. I'm trying to figure it out. Whatever. I'm a grown up now. What a great question. It's fun to think about that stuff. It's also a little cringy because I know I was, I'm sure that I was rude to some people that I wish I hadn't been. Probably not joy. I was too hard to, I was just like, you know, shut it down and nope, I can't, nope, sorry, no, thank you. Don't, you know, I'm busy or whatever. I just didn't,

you know, whatever, we didn't know. Well, but I think it's also, it is really worth repeating that you can't be all things to all people at all times. And especially in a town like ours, there's two sides to every coin, right? And like, what an amazing thing that during spring break weeks, we'd have 500 people outside of, oh my God, I forgot about spring break.

You know, well, but to realize how much your show means, but also you can't get through town with 500 people following you around. There's a point where you have to go, you got to back up, you got to stop. I'm just, I can't. Also working, like we're working long hours and going out and chit-chatting with fans, it actually sucks a lot of energy out of us. But then we also have to still go back and do our job, which is why

I hardly ever went out and took photos with fans because it's not because I was opposed to it. It was that I knew how much energy it would suck out of me. And I knew that I still had a whole day of workload ahead of me that I wouldn't be able to do my job properly if I had like released all that energy out to other people. Well, especially because you're an introvert, you know? Yeah, that's what I mean. It sucks a lot. lot of energy out of me. I made it kind of my thing where I was like at work, I will come when I can. And outside of here, please respect my personal life. So it made, it was the thing that actually made me feel free being able to go do that. We have one other question from Kristen that is when

you had musical artists on the show, did you ever get to talk or hang out with them? You know, I feel like we've talked about Gavin. Like, Gavin came to play pool with us at the bars. Yeah. Well, I mean, I had a mega crush on Grace Potter. Oh, yeah. She was awesome, girl. And she came out with, like, me and Beth Crocum, I think, one night. And I was just like, oh, my God, she's so cool.

She's so cool. Yeah, I loved her. The folks stayed on the show a bit. I mean, we were all too scared to say anything to Cheryl Crow. But as the years went on, you know, Kate Vogel became a character. Oh, my God. Yeah. Tyler Hilton was a character.

So it was so fun because we got to have... Pete Wentz. Oh, my God, sweet Pete. Oh. Like, we got to have all these wonderful relationships and friendships with people who initially came on the show for their music. Yeah.

And don't forget, Bethany Joy Lens. Bethany Joy Lens. I liked our fake music friend, Kevin Federline. Like, oh, yeah. Kevin Lipsink. He did not really sing on the show, and we'll tell that story when we get there, because it's one of my favorite stories from the show. But we went out to, oh, what was that bar that was on the corner of Front Street, and then, like, where Riverview Suites are. All I remember is being in this bar very late at night and Kevin Federline buying everyone's shots and being so lovely and so fun and so, like, he was awesome.

He was, I was so mad they cast him. And then he ended up being so lovely. And so, oh, Nick Lachet was really great too, by the way. Remember Nick came on? We had a good run. We had a good run with the same good. We did. Oh, what fun we had. Okay, so here's my question to piggyback that.

If we could have any musical performer on that would also have to have dinner with us and hang out with us after the fact, who would we have? Oh, man. This is really tough, Hillary. I know. Listen, I only ask the hard-hitting questions. That's hard. Pete Yorne, I feel like, would be cool to chill with. Are you going to kiss Pete Yorne? No, I haven't even, I haven't listened to his music in many, many years, but I don't know why his name just popped up.

I looked up Pete Yorne not long ago, Joy, and he has the same exact hair that he had in 2000, like the long hair. And I was like, God bless. that's awesome i hear sean mullins is pretty cool too remember that guy guys i just want to have dinner with stevie wonder so i pick stevie one oh yeah that's a good one that'd be amazing i mean look i what i had an answer but you said stevie and my brain went straight to stevie nix and i was like oh yes the queen witch i mean there's so many legends there's so many legends well i was going to say boy george because when i was in high school i was obsessed with boy george and i think if we're going to be drama queens and add a layer of bitch to this show?

Yes. He's the queen. I love that. Yeah. All right. Those are good questions. Y'all want to spin a wheel? Yeah.

Shall we spin a most likely wheel? I mean, honestly, where did Pete Yorne come from? Why is that in my brain? I don't know, but I'm about to listen to him as soon as we're done. Now I'm going to go. I know. Now I'm going to go listen to Pete. Okay, folks.

Give it to himself. Who's most likely to end? up in prison. I think in this episode, Lucas, brother is drinking underage, breaking an anterine, indecent exposure in a public place. Oh, yeah. Totally. You're right.

Breaking the law. Yeah. Wait, who's most likely to get arrested in, like. Nikki for sure would have been arrested as an accessory. So they're both going to jail. Yeah. Yeah. And statutory rape.

But that's a different story, guys. We're not going to get into that. Oh, man. I like him young. Can we live that line for the... That was awful. That's how you know it's a bunch of dudes being like, you know what I wish the hot girl in college and said to me when I was in high school?

Gross. Gross. So gross. I mean, in real life. In real life. Most likely you get arrested, Lee Norris. No. We say Lee Norris for everything.

But by the way, like, Lee is the one who at like 2 o'clock in the morning is like heckling from across the street. like, hey, over here. Do we have any, like, hippies who would be, like, at the, you know, real, I sound like such an old person calling somebody a hippie. Hippies, you know, people who would, like, stand in picket lines and who would be, like, you know, in the front of somebody who'd get arrested for, you know. Sophia, Sophia's are Jane Fonda.

Yeah. You're for real going to get arrested on a, on a protest line at some point. Have you before? I've been threatened. No, I've been threatened with arrest on a protest line multiple times. But there's just like a couple of key phrases You need to learn about your rights And then they're like, ah, that one's read the law

And they move on What are they? Educate us Oh, well, I'll write you up a whole I'll write you up a whole document There's multiple to learn But they're not hard to memorize Exciting. Maybe we'll post it in the stories as a resource

Can you imagine? Protest resource I like that Oh my God Yeah All right, it's you and Lucas You guys are trouble one is political one is perverted i'm down damn the man damn the next episode number 17 we have

spirit in the nights it's going to be better you guys i believe in the next episode i believe in us it cannot be worse than this well here's the thing we all end up in such awesome places we got to turn it around at some point right yeah yeah yeah and hopefully we'll be less cold um so let's see how the next episode shapes up you guys have been awesome thanks for hanging out with us guys. Thanks, darlands. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's O-T-HtH. Or email us at Drama Queens at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team.

Drama queens, drama queens. Smart girl, rough girl. But you'll tough, girl, you could sit with us, girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Drama, drama queens, drama queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop.

Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.