Drama Queens - Trauma of the Best Kind ᐧ EP617

Episode Date: April 22, 2024

Hilarie reveals the support she got as Peyton dealt with a difficult journey on the show and takes the opportunity to open up about a similar real life experience. The girls discuss impulsiveness, being duped and the most appropriately placed inappropriate joke.  If anything could make you find a silver lining in trauma, it’s this episode.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. Smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl.

Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. oh babe this episode it was great this episode was fucking great but also I'm traumatized

by the way I loved this episode so much and the whole time I was just watching this emotional tragedy that you and Chad

had to play out and I was like did they did they just keep Advil on set for y'all like were they keeping you hydrated i was so sad and heartbroken for you both but same for you i was just like why are they putting sophia the human through this like this is hard guys this was this is a lot of hard work on this one very different episode very very different

episode beautifully written uh which is why we're so affected by this by terence coley why don't you tell them what the rundown is baby yeah terry coli did such a great job on this y'all we're here for season six episode 17 you and me and the bottle makes three tonight which actually feels sort of appropriate it is early here i don't have a liquor i have a smoothie um but our our compatriot joy is shooting a film not that it's about me but she is shooting in sophia bulgaria which does make me feel sort of chic yeah she was like oh god it's so beautiful you have a whole city honey she was like it's so beautiful here you would die for the architecture. I was like, that feels nice. Fantastic. But it's like late there.

It's very late there. She is actually still on set. She was supposed to join us today. So, Hillary, it's you and me and the smoothie makes three on this podcast. I got a coffee. We got coffees. I just housed some olive bread. I needed to eat after this episode. I know. I know. It really, it really did make me feel emotional and snacky. We've really gone a little tangential, but friends, let me tell you what this one is about. Peyton and Lucas receive a startling surprise about the pregnancy. As Brooke and Julian's relationship comes to a crossroads, Nathan and Haley celebrate their anniversary while Dan and Deb babysit Jamie. Meanwhile, Marvin and Millie try to pick up

the pieces of their relationship. I don't love that the synopsis says you get a startling surprise, but I wonder if that's a nod to the title cards of each vignette. I see that. So, yeah, that's what was so different about this. This was written as a collection of, like, one-act plays. And typically we don't get to do that in TV because viewers get bored. They're like, oh, God, we've heard the same people talking for two whole pages. I got to change the channel. And at this point, I don't know what the catalyst for this was for us to really, like, sit in these scenes and commit.

I love it. But it was as an actor. it was doing a play everyone was doing a play yeah i remember the the combination of excitement and anxiety that we all felt when we got the script because yeah i mean these these scenes are seven eight nine pages in a chunk and and to your point it is like blocking a play and it it's fun when you're six long years into something to be be handed a script and have it surprise you. Yeah.

Yeah. And this one, I vividly remember filming this one because Chad and I knew that we had a mountain to climb together. I'm sure you and Austin felt the same way. It's like everyone with their scene partner just locked in. And if we're not seeing sports to have that kind of sportsmanship behind. the scenes, felt good. It felt like us. It felt like our show to be like, all right, let's go shoot our basket, score our touchdown. You know, like, whatever we're doing in this scene. Let's make it

hurt. So what you're saying is your whole script was just covered in little X's and O's in the margins. I mean, kind of. Kind of. It was dark. You know, I, as I watched, I was like, okay, I'm not going to get emotional about this. But I do think we need to provide a trigger warning for anyone who hasn't watched the episode or has and just, you know, isn't aware on their drive to work that this is what we're talking about. But, you know, fertility. Yeah. Storylines. Uh, pregnancy loss storylines. Abortion storylines. All of that was touched upon in this episode in a way that I'm actually proud of. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. We had some big talks in this episode.

Yeah, they were really large. And it was interesting because the episode opens. You know, we talked a lot about how last week was basically like a big rom-com. Yeah. And so fun. And one of the things I saw that I appreciated, and I think this was very smart of Terry, our writer, is that opening on Brooke and Julian with the misdirect of, I don't do that. Mm-hmm.

You know? It made it feel like that rom-com, and it feels to me like this episode was really written to, like, leave one scene from 616, and then we sort of like dove out of the humor and into something deeper. Yeah. And I really appreciated that because where we end up, to your point, the reason we talk about a trigger warning, you know, we end up really in heavy stuff for. people. And you talked about this last week how when you were filming all this stuff as Peyton and Lucas, you hadn't been pregnant. You hadn't been down the roads you've been down to become a mom. And not only did I feel for you guys watching you, you know, go through this beautiful play that was so emotional, but I wondered how you would feel about it

now, having had the life experiences that you've had since. Well, what's up is that I had some experience with this. I was, between seasons one and two, I had some fertility issues. I had a problem that caused me to miss a photo shoot in L.A. And our boss lost his fucking mind with me and told me, I was ruining everything. And so everyone knows that I'm like the kid lady. Like I'm like the lady that fucking loves kids.

And being a mom is all I ever wanted to do. My manager still tells the story about, you know, we were doing some interview at a record store in Times Square and everyone asked where we were going to be in 10 years. And I was like, barefoot and pregnant. Like, what do you want from me? So the powers that be knew that I had kind of, of this heartache about this specific issue. So it's difficult to watch a younger version of

myself navigate this, knowing that my future was going to be a future of loss. I knew that I was going to have pregnancy loss. I knew that I was going to need to have abortions at some point in my life. You know, and so it was really easy to cry in these scenes. It's easy to tap into something But did they think I was that shoddy of an actress that we always had to tap into the real stuff? Well, it was manipulative. Yeah, I was just going to say, one of the things I love about you is that you will always crack a joke no matter how heavy something is because that's your sense of humor. But like as your friend, that just makes me want to like chop off heads because it wasn't that they had nothing else to do. it was that our boss really enjoyed making people act out versions of their real personal lives on

camera. He really took a lot of pleasure in that. And for better or worse, we were very culture to like always smile, always be professional, never let anybody know any of it was getting to us. That's something I'm certainly working through as an adult in therapy, like realizing, oh, I can be miserable and everyone can think I'm happy, this is uncomfortable. Huh, what do I learn that? If I hear one more time in my life, like, we had no idea you were upset. It's like, oh, really? Of course not, because if I'm upset, then I'm unprofessional. Yeah. If I actually say how I feel, I get attacked for being the problem. So, okay, we hit a nerve with this storyline. And what I will say is that Chad Michael Murray, showed the fuck up. That dude cried on my coverage. He stayed with me the whole time. He

wanted to really understand what the girl side of it was. Like, I remember being astounded because we've known Chad forever. He's like my, it's like a brother, which is f*** up when like a brother character's playing your husband. But we had like, we picked on each other. We ribbed each other about a lot, you know, we made fart jokes together. Like, it was a very juvenile friendship. And when you know you have to go into this really dark shit that hurts with somebody, the way he showed up made me feel very cared for. And I was able to express that to him. Mm-hmm. And which made him, in turn, feel really cared for that I, I, I, saw it. You know, it's one thing when, like, you do something nice. And then the other person,

you don't have to point it out. The other person just like recognizes it. And so this was a turning point in our friendship, this episode. Well, but I, you know, I think about that in terms of our lives, all of us. And where we had started six years prior, you know, really, I mean, you had more professional experience in this world than a lot of us, but like, I feel like I was a little hatchling. Like, I had goo behind my ears. I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. You done big stuff, though. I love the Ryan Reynolds comment in this. I know, I know. That was very funny. I was like, I never actually dated that guy. Was it Van Wilder? Yeah, like, the reference to, like, my first movie ever was so funny. Like, and I did love that, that we ribbed on the fact that

so much of what you read on the internet is just so far from true that it's ridiculous. Well, because who's dated who? Have you looked at your list? No. Is it crazy? I didn't date Pete Wentz in real life, you guys. Well, no, of course you didn't. By the way, there's so many people that people think I've dated.

And I'm like, I mean, I guess I'll let you believe that because I don't really need you know in my real business. But before we get there, like that whole thing, right? Like, we're referencing our, essentially our childhoods on camera in the episode. But what I really appreciate about what you're saying and what I could see as a viewer and someone who's known you guys for close to, you know, well, 20 years now, I could see that. That dynamic you're talking about, not just this beautiful story for Lucas and Payton, I could see it for Hillary and Chad.

And what I really love about what you're saying is, you know, we've talked. a lot on this podcast. Look, it's the girls. We talk about how we raised each other. We grew up together. We learned lessons together. But something that I think is really special for you and for him. You know, for you, like, I wasn't sure if you were going to share the stuff about what happened between season one and two today. So, A, thank you there. But B, like, we'd all been through a lot in these six years together. And it is not lost on me that I see you too in this episode go to a place as partners in a scene that is so deep and so real and so authentic. And, you know, a year later, you both were going to have left Wilmington. You had met Jeffrey. You were starting a family.

And like, I don't know how many years it is. I'm not doing the math in my head, but not too much longer after this, I think. He went and started a family. He did it while he was doing a movie with Jeffrey. Yes, that's right. Yeah. But I would think that your friendship and in the same way for us, like, we held you through the beginning of loss and the journey for you. Like, as a man, he got to do that with you. Yeah. And I should think that your friendship with him, going from being like a sister figure to playing this wife and mom who he got to show up for like you had to help raise that boy into becoming the man and the dad he is today he loves being a dad no one loves i know and and i think that's so beautiful like there is i don't know there's just something so special about watching

you guys in this episode and thinking about what everyone's been through for the last six years and i love hearing how held you both felt in your little one act you know It was a learning experience for me because we're both cancers. We both have a hard exterior that sometimes people tell us is unapproachable or just maybe intimidating. Like, oh, you aren't someone who I would come to with a, you know, a problem necessarily because you'd tell me the truth. And then you'd be stern about it. Yeah, I get that. So what I learned from how.

Having a great writer script this scenario for me is that I have just as much strength in softness as I do in my prickliness. And that's been a big lesson for me in adulthood is to understand that softness is also powerful. And that's not something that comes naturally to me. So, you know, even when Jeffrey and I suffered our first pregnancy, loss. This sounds terrible, but I'd already practiced this scene. Like, I'd already played this scene. So I knew what it meant to let myself be upset, to try to be optimistic in the face of that, all of that. But Jeffrey hadn't. You know, he had never been given a script. And he really struggled

in what to say to me. And I wrote about that in my book. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Yeah. For the guy who hasn't felt all the hormone changes and the body changes, pregnancy can oftentimes be imaginary and really hard to connect with. And for the girl, it's the most serious shit in the world, whether you want that pregnancy or not. Like, it's life or death for you.

And I really credit Terrence for the way he crafted these scenes because Lucas Scott saying, fine, I'll be the dick. I'll be the bad guy if it keeps you alive. Was it real thing for a man to say to his partner, you know? Yes. Yes. And you know what? I loved that too. I wrote, I wrote that down. I said, I really like seeing a man be as sort of, I don't want to say rational because it makes it sound like you're being irrational. Yeah. But I really like seeing him be willing to come from that ultimate place of vulnerability saying, I refuse to do this without you. I can't do this without you. Like, you know, I choose you. And maybe, I don't know, y'all, maybe it's because most of the people we seem screaming about taking women's rights away

are men. So I'm so used to them being like, it's so sacred and it's what you're born to do. And it's easy. And it's like, actually, I played a heart surgeon and I learned that the number one cause of aortic dissection in women, literally where the largest artery in your body rips apart and you internally bleed to death is pregnancy. So when you say it's life and death, it's literally life and death. So maybe because culturally, unfortunately in our country, like so much of the political pushback on women living comes from men. And I was like, thank you, Lucas Scott. Like, thank you for saying these things. Thank you for being willing to sob and say, I hate this, but also I choose you. I prioritize your life. I was so surprised by

it. And the fact that Terry gave you guys this opportunity to say every single thing and to confront the fear, like, he did such a good job and like, God, those are the kinds of men you really want to have in a writer's room. Well, you know, it reminded me of my husband, Jeffrey, every once in a while will put on his pro rose shirt and just go run errands and do school pickup. And, And I'm like, God damn. Yeah. That's my man. That's my honey.

Yeah. Crowd. Because it is, it's been so stereotyped in storytelling that the wife and potential mother needs to martyr herself in order to be this angelic figure. And for every woman out there that is going through a medical crisis, what I don't want is for them to watch Peyton Sawyer. say, I'm willing to die for this and feel like they have to come to the same conclusion. And so to have Lucas Scott respect the autonomy of his partner and know the risks that come with it, but also know that it's her body, that was important. You know, it was important.

And it makes that balance of storytelling where I'm nervous, but he's sure. And then the flip, I don't know, I loved it. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind of two years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history.

On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know what I liked? I liked that you guys had the space for all of your emotions. And even in the ways, you know, to your point, like that women get so pressured to martyr themselves. I mean, you know, our friend Glennon wrote a whole beautiful book about it. it. Like, I, I like that even in the moments where I from this year, 2024, looked back at this episode from 2009 and went, are they just going to make her ignore her health? I really

liked it. Even in the, even in the nuance, they gave you the, he said maybe. So I want to try. And it's like, I understand that very human habit of holding on to that little glimmer of hope, you know, like when I think about, you know, not necessarily even on this topic, but when I think about like, oh, yeah, in hindsight, I might be able to see where something wasn't good for me. But, like, in the moment, there was a chance. Oh, yeah. And I really wanted to bet on the chance. I really wanted to give it my all. I didn't want to give up before I was sure that it wasn't for me. And I just think there's something so human about that, you know, that everybody can really relate to.

If you can survive one more day, right? And then the next day, if you can survive one more day after that, for me in my pregnancy with George, after, you know, multiple pregnancy losses, that nine months took for fucking ever. I mean, that was the longest period of my entire. your life because you have to cut it down into bite-sized pieces like that. No, you're not going to last the full nine months. That's not going to happen. But can you last for six hours? Yeah, yeah.

All right. I can do six hours. And it's a stressful way to live. But when you're an optimist, that's, yeah. And then when you hit that point, we're like, no, I can't do six more hours. Then the ability for you to make a very sure decision is there. You know, when you can't do the bite-sized pieces anymore, then the decisions are made and it's really, really easy. So I like that as partners, Peyton was able to say, you're such

a dick. And it's not, they're not breaking up. It's not a fight where it's like, are we, are you leaving me? You know, it was, we're having a fight and we're going to be okay in 20 minutes, but we really need to have this fight right now. Yeah, it's a big one. I love what partners could fight. By the way, because it's so healthy. But I loved, I loved that moment of the back and forth in, you know, obviously all the pages of this scene. I loved you saying, you're a dick and him saying, fine, then I'm a dick. Yeah. You know? He's not trying to talk me out of it. He's being real clear. And I just, yeah, I just thought that it was like, I thought that it was very beautifully done. Thanks. I mean, Greg Prange directed this.

And that was another layer of weird because I had been with his son for a really long time. And Greg knew me really well. And he also knew about all these kinds of sad parts of me. And so he was very careful with me, too. I think everyone knew how sensitive this was for me. And so I felt really taken care of, especially by the guys. The guys somehow knew, I said I wasn't going to cry. They knew that a nerve had been touched.

Like this, that's a button you don't touch. And so to do the whole last part of this season, already under duress, man. Yeah. We had really good guys. We had good, you know, Steve Allen reached out just recently, our dolly grip and was like, sis, I heard you were talking.

about me on the podcast. So I'm doing it again, Steve. We love you, Steve Allen. I just loved our guys. And Chad became a very dear person to me because of this. So anyway, for all the women out there that are triggered by this, I'm really sorry. And I hope I'm not using language that's offensive because I'm making jokes and stuff about it. But yeah, it was just a really complicated thing to do. But I also see my friend, I see you in this episode having to do this whole same thing about relationships and failed relationships and opening yourself up and being vulnerable to people, which is something that you've been vocal about. Like, do you want to light yourself on fire right now? Do you? Yeah. I mean, it is. It's very wild. And this journey

of Brooks was really personal to me, obviously, you know. I had been through, I'd been like pretty lucky to be pretty sheltered in terms of relationships as a kid. Like, you know, my first relationship was with my best friend and like my, my camp sweetheart since I was nine. Like, I, I had really sweet, kind, patient people in my life. And then we all got thrust into adulthood and I went

through something that was both like so invasive and public but also like not ever fully talked about or like nobody knows the full picture. I mean, obviously you do. But I don't think it's really anybody's business.

There's this weird thing where like when you're any version of a public figure you almost want everybody to have all the facts so that things make sense and then you're also like nobody deserves that but you know people fill vacuums where you give yourself grace or privacy with their own facts which are usually pretty gross

and to go through that after like such a period of sweetness when I was a kid was very jarring and so it definitely what I realize now, again, like props to my wonderful therapist, Trevor's worth every dollar I pay him. Thanks, Trevor. I love you, Trevor. Also, my therapist calls me dude, which like is just my favorite thing. He's sort of like, like when you talk about how you and Chad became like very brother's sister, like my therapist feels like the big brother I never had. Perfect. Not the point.

Love him. But, you know, what I've learned is that it taught me like, oh, you can be living a life and not realize it's not real. Like you can literally think you know what's going on around you and there's this whole other thing. And so what I learned in these six years was like, I don't trust people. I have to like observe people.

I, you know, I would stay like very single for long periods of time and just observe people. Anybody who like wanted to date me, I'd make them become my friend. And I'd observe them to see like, who are you really when you're not? trying to like will me or impress me. Right. You know, like I just wouldn't. You also would sick your friends on people. Like, hey, go go see how they treat you. I'd be like, go tell me what

you think of this. Like, tell me, you go talk to that person and see if I'm crazy. Because I, I really didn't think for a long time that I could trust my judgment, you know. When that gets ripped away from you, baby, like, yeah. It's so hard to come back from that. Well, yeah. And when you, when you go through betrayal, you go like, oh, do I have any idea what's real and what isn't? Yeah. You know, it is a kind of loss. Like when you talk about loss, it is a loss of, you know, a loss of trust for others is painful enough, but a loss of self-trust is difficult. And so for me, what I see being done in this episode is like the people who knew me and observed me for six years were like, hey, honey, do you realize you're

do this, do you realize you hold people at arm's length? Like, you really Heisman people. Yeah. And I did, like, certainly. And I, I've, I've always moved very, I've moved, like, very slowly for a very long time, I think. That was just sort of how I learned to protect myself. And it was interesting to watch it be written about in a way, like, because it's me, but it's not me. and just go like, oh, wow, people really can see me. And, like, so we really have our real lives, like, in a sense. It's like a, like a shadow self, like a copy. Like your avatar.

Yeah. Yeah, like multiplicity. Like it's the second Michael Keaton where you're like, it's me, but it's not me, but it's me. I feel this is very intimate and personal. Oh. I really struggled with Julian in this episode. I thought he was gross.

I thought when Brooke said ick, when she said, ew, ick at the top of the episode. I don't do that. I don't do that. I agree with her. And I, but then when I saw Peyton's stomach bump,

I realized like, oh, some time has passed. Like, that's the thing. Has it been three months? Has it been four months? months like I wish they had given us some semblance of time other than a growing bump on Peyton well especially because we kept getting the chirons for the vignettes seven year itch deleted scene like couldn't they have given us like a three months later right because Julian the last thing I knew you were throwing your fucking letter jacket at him you know and like

you guys had a fight and then you sort of made up in the diner it was fine and now he's saying I love you? Like crazy talk. It was a little whiplashy for me in the beginning. But then as the story progressed and he kept pushing you further and further and further, it really felt to me like he was an in-cell in high school and actually never really had a girlfriend. Yeah. I was like, why are you guilty this chick?

It's so passive-aggressive. It's not, I don't want anyone to ever tell me they love me because I've forced them to before they were comfortable with it. Yeah. Yeah, it started in such a good place and then it did get almost a little combative. And I was like, I don't know if I'm just being sensitive because I'm protective of Brooke. Yeah. Maybe there's, I mean, I'm sure there's people out there. Hillary layoff, she needed to hear the hard love.

She needed to hear it. And sure, sure. Maybe she did, but it just felt really pressure. Well, here's what I think is cool. I liked the reveal, because Brooks never said it until this episode. I like the reveal that she has not been in love since high school. Wow. you know because you can kind of assume it in the four years we skipped we never saw it in the

flashbacks we saw victoria making her go on dates so she'd get photographed with the hot guy for the tabloid whatever but to hear her say it and to see julian see it and to see the discomfort like i remember how that felt to stand there and think about what it would be like to have someone see your secret that you just haven't opened yourself up to anybody in so long. And I appreciated, as much as I thought by the end of the scene, he was a little petulant. They wrote him that way. What I appreciated was the fact that she was able to say, like, no matter how bad you feel about this dynamic, imagine how I feel. Yeah.

And that she got to say how hard it is to be the footnote in someone else's love story. And what I loved that he said to her in response is that you gave up feeling like you deserve love. I was like, oh, God, oh, it cuts deep where you go like maybe that's just not for me. Like I've had that experience. I've had to come to terms with that experience with reaching a point in life. it's like, well, I know I want to be a parent and I know I want partnership and I know I want these things. And I have so much love in my life. So maybe, maybe it doesn't look like it's looked on TV or in movies. Maybe it looks like a partnership for the good of others. Maybe it looks, maybe it looks like

different than I thought it was going to look like. And the real roundabout for me, the like aha moment is, like we said, this idea of martyering. It's, it is what Glennon wrote her book about. It's like, well, if I, if I'm going to be in a relationship or a marriage for my eventual daughter, would I want this relationship for my daughter? And I think that's a big lesson, and I see that in my life. That's so weird. Can I tell you that that exact quote has popped up in my algorithm multiple times in the last couple days? And I don't know why. By the way, it's been in mine a lot too, and I'm like, are they listening to the conversations I'm having with Trevor? Like, what's going on? Yeah, weird. Yeah, it's like her doing an interview talking about that exact excerpt. Yes. Weird. All right. Yes. And, like, I remember when I first read that book, I sent it to my mom and, like, it gave us a whole conversation. And my mom and I talked about, like, our family histories and generational trauma and things in my parents' relationship and things in the relationships I've been in. Like, it's such a profound.

thing of oh we will make all these we'll pretzel ourselves in a lot of ways yeah but we would never want anyone to pretzel our kids yeah like we don't want them to be folded up and made small and and i think the reason i love what what's happening in this episode so much is it it rings true for me it rings true for me at the age we filmed it it rings true for me now where i've been I know it rang true for you then, and I know it rings even truer for you now, given where you've been in your family and with your stories of loss. And like, that, I think, is the power of a good story when you can go like, oh, all of these things are really unique, these storylines, but they're super universal because they're true. Well, isn't that f***ed up that we could do the show in our early 20s and then be here in our 40s still triggered by it? And I think that's why our show was a multi-generational show.

Like, if this were just airing on TV right now, I would feel just as connected to this character as I did at 25 years old. Totally agree. And I think that is the magic of our show. I think it's why we have, you know, we get to hang out with all these different groups of intergenerational fans when we go to events and stuff. Everyone in their 40s relates to it and so does everyone in their 20s.

And by the way, like, so do our parents. And I was about to say in their 60s, And I'm like, shit, my parents are in their 70s. And they're still like, totally accurate. Hey, Maureen. Hey, Maureen. You know? Yeah.

And I just think, I think this is the specialness of story. And so often when our real stories were used on camera, it felt gross. But this I actually really appreciate for us. Yeah. I mean, I don't mind having a script in life. I don't mind having like a practice run. And that's what our show really was for us in a lot of ways. Like, Chad was my first wedding.

Yeah. And first, you know, pregnancy and all this kind of stuff. And you just get to, you know how people drive around in their cars and they have fake conversations just to practice? Yeah. Do you do that? I do that. Oh, I talk to myself and other people who aren't here in my house all day.

All the time. You have to practice the conversation. Yeah. You have the conversation. Yeah. Sometimes you've got to practice ahead of time. And sometimes five years later, you're like, what I should have said was. And another thing, I'm going to bring it back up.

I'm going to say this. Yeah. This was for a lot of my stuff, like our practice run, One Tree Hill. So we practiced. Do you ever wonder in like, maybe this is kind of fucked up, but do you ever watch our show and go like, did this, did we like manifest all the things that happened to us later? Like did the show say to the universe? Oh, more of this. because I would have liked to have been like, no, no, this is just for work.

Girl, honestly, we conjured so much unintentionally when we did this show. Because when you say things out loud. You're being real witchy. Yeah, when you say things out loud, that's powerful. You know, the power of speech is incredibly powerful. And, you know, when you put your energy into words and ideas and thoughts and you do it over and over and over again, it ends up happening. It always, if I say someone's name three times, you bet your ass.

they're going to send me a Facebook message or text me or just can show up at the supermarket. It's a nightmare. So I'm really careful what I say. And with this show, yeah, yeah, having a baby, having pregnancy complications. You know, Peyton was all about mom and pop shops, you know, the trick of it all, the all ages club. And here I am with the town candy store, you know, hanging out with all the teenagers. It just feels really cyclical. And I like that.

And I think it's happening for other characters on our show, too. You know, when we see Nathan and Haley, you know, when we see Mouth and Millie even having these, like, very hard conversations, we know the people behind it who have conquered really hard things in their life. And we know that maybe this was a good practice run for everybody on adulting. Yeah. I mean, and that's something I think is so cool, is the stages of relationships everyone in? Like, Brooke and Julian are on the precipice of something, and he's asking her to leap with him.

Peyton and Lucas are on the verge of this whole new frontier. And then we get to go with Nathan and Haley with our other, like, you know, pillar couple. Thank God they're safe. Thank God. But by the way, how cute that they're in the seven-year itch moment. and instead of it being a problem with their relationship, their relationship is stronger than ever, but they're both being really honest

that individually they don't have what they want yet. That they want more of the things that make them as individuals happy. Nathan wants to pursue basketball, and because he wants to pursue basketball, he knows Haley wants to pursue music. Yeah. And, like, who could call her on that but him and say, like, I saw your face,

and the reason I know the feeling is because I get that feeling. I love that he does that for her in this. When she says there's really room for one attention whore in this family. I was like, girl, I heard that. I heard that. Yeah, no, there's definitely room for two attention whores in every family, but no more, no more. Yeah, I liked that they had that really honest conversation because, first of all, when they first show up in that house, I'm like, what the fuck are they doing in a house?

Why didn't they just go to a hotel? Yeah. But there's something kinky about being in a for sale house, you know? Listen, seven years in, we're getting lessons on how to keep it spicy, you know? We hooked, Jeff and I hooked up in a house that was for sale once. If you saw my face, I was like, are you going to say it? Are you going to say it? Because I know the story.

That's all I can say. I'm so red. I'm so proud of you. I'm not embarrassed. We have been together for 15 fucking years. We can do whatever we want. I am real proud of you, babe. So that's all I can think about is I watch this scene like, get that, Haley.

I get that. Yeah, okay. Yeah, cool. Making moves. That's why she go ahead. Seven years in, that feels right. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture.

It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con

or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I also loved, again, like when we talk about this idea that our characters feel a little bit like the first Michael Keaton in multiplicity, you know, like just one copy over. Yeah.

Watching Nathan and Haley run around in this house and sort of fantasize about this parallel universe life, it feels like they're toying with their own little avatars. Oh yeah. What would it look like? And talking about what could be. Yeah. And it was interesting to me that she kept choosing like movie references. It was like she was trying to create a because she didn't grow up necessarily in a conventional household. Her parents have sold the house. They're living in an RV. You know, she's trying to create the fantasy, right? The white picket fence, the old house filled up with kids. Like it's a very antiquated. version of what a happy family looks like. And then Nathan comes in and is like, but that's not our happy. Our happy is mom on the road, which is the exact opposite of mother martyrdom. You know, and to have the boy recommend that. I want to know who Terry's therapist was, our writer, because... Yes.

By the way, who's that man's therapist? and can Terry maybe write like an advice book for dudes? What are we doing? Well, that's it. Like, when I had my first miscarriage and Jeff didn't know what to do, someone gave me a book that was written by a man who had experienced that. And was it helpful? It helped me because all of a sudden I understood what he was going through. And then when I gave it to him, he didn't feel like an alien, you know? So for Terry, yeah, Terry, we need you to write a book on all things. Like how to support your partner's career, how to deal with loss, how to show up in a way that's helpful and not manipulative. Also, though, like, don't force people to tell you that they love you.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was probably a little bit of a device to poke the bear, to poke the brook. Yeah, we needed Julian. He's not a perfect person. He's not good. He's not bad. He's just trying. Yeah. Well, and you don't always get it. it right. And that is something that I think is actually so important to show on TV. Because part of the problem, like when you talk about what Haley's trying to achieve, you watch those rom-coms and you think that's what your life is supposed to be like. And that's not life. It's not that easy. And I actually like when our characters don't always get it right. And then they figure out how to get through it because that's what we learn. Like that's what you're talking about with this book you guys.

got it taught you how to get it more right with each other because you didn't know how yet yeah for anybody that is going through something like that though we should i'm gonna yeah what is the book it's called vessels and okay it was so incredibly helpful not just in this but in like my whole marriage it is a book by daniel rayburn um r a e b-u-r-n it's wonderful it was a really it was a really helpful book because i do think the boys get a bad rap You know, they're not necessarily given a ton of great examples of how to be involved in their partner's hard stuff. It's almost like they're given this choice.

Like you can either be overbearing and mansplain and tell her what to do or just be so hands off that she's abandoned. That she's like, I can't believe I did this with you. Yeah. Nathan could very easily say like, whatever you want, Haley. Whatever you want. Yeah. but he's involving himself he's got a lot on his plate she's coming to him with this problem of like hey so i got suspended um sorry i didn't tell you but maybe let's just change our whole life

right now yeah it's sort of like when you go through when someone goes through a breakup and they cut bangs and you're like no no no i went through that in my like in my crew in my crew, well, I mean, I've done it. But no, this summer, like, with everybody, everybody I know was either getting divorced or having a baby. I was like, well, it's wild. But in like my closest crew of the five of us, now it's four, who one stayed and four didn't, we're all getting divorced. My best friend called and was like, so is today the day I get bangs? And I was like, we've been doing this dance for 15 years. We do not go through a breakup and cut bangs. We're not doing this. And so I wound up getting our friend Ricky, who was like our big consulting wonderful hairdresser when we did our salon in Detroit, we called Ricky and I was like, Ricky, I need you to order Nia a set of clip-in bangs.

So she can clip them in on the days that she thinks that she wants these and then she can take them out because I know her as well as I know myself and she never is happy three days after she cuts up. We've done this twice in the last decade. And so now we both have clip in banks. If you don't launch a line of Brooke bangs, I am going to be so mad at you. You have been talking about clip and bangs for years. I'm obsessed with them. I know.

It's like the easiest way to have a change. Yeah. If you don't get on that, I'm going to be furious with you. Okay. Who do we talk to? Do you want to help? Well, apparently your friend who can make bangs. Yeah, I just need some with like a little gray stripe right here, a little white stripe.

Yeah, Brooke bangs are going to be a huge seller at Target, my friend. No one else is selling just like bangs. Oh, they're all I want. Just put them in the same aisle as all the shampoo and hair products and stuff at these like big stores. And every woman that's like got that one hour to herself between work and kid pickup is just going to be like, I'm just going to try them. I just need a bang today. We just need like a, like, what are the ends of the aisles called? A kiosk?

You just need a little kiosk. The aisle cap? I want that. You're going to make so much money on this idea. Me and Sally Hanson, let's go. I love it. New nails, new bangs, new you. Oh, I fucking love it so much.

I do want bangs just because. I do too. Wait, speaking of changes that people make, this is sort of a hard left, but sort of not. No, I know where you're going. LASIC. LASIC. The LASIC is a big old change because when Mouth finds her glasses in the drawer, like this old

piece of her has been left behind, it really hit me. It made me like, it made my little voice catch in my throat. You know what I liked about it? My gut reaction when she said, I got LASIC was that she did this thing. She didn't consult him. she you know it's a cosmetic procedure but she made this decision completely on her own the same way she did with her virginity she didn't consult anyone and there seems to be this gradual building of Millie where she doesn't need permission for shit and when he's like

I miss the glasses had she asked him should I get LASIC and he said no I like the glasses an old Millie, that would have altered her decision. But New Millie's like, I'm not going to ask anybody. I just don't want to wear these things in my face anymore. And I'm wondering, I'm like, I can't remember, did Lisa actually get LASIC during those episodes she was off? Because remember, we were all getting LASIC done by Mike Leone's wife. Yeah, Kay Leone.

I'm like, did Kate fix her eyes? I don't know. Prior to this episode, I'm so curious. Are Lisa's glasses ever real? Yes. Okay. They were real. Interesting.

I know. Yeah, I like it. I like it for Millie. You know, it's a little she's all that, taking the glasses off and being infinitely like hotter now. She's not a virgin anymore. Look at her. She's in high boots and silk and there's cleavage. She was in a Brooke Davis top for sure.

She looks so good. I love that top. Yeah, it looked fantastic. And I was like, why? Why don't we still have blouses like that? Because I like that they hug your tits, but they're not snug on my belly because I don't like snug on my belly. I don't either. I want to be able to eat a burrito and have people not ask me if I'm pregnant.

So we're going to sell bangs and tit hugging shirts, but leave that belly free. Okay. God, Sophia, we have so many things to do business-wise. I just love this. No, I like that mouth apologize to her. I like that he copped to the text messages and was like, I am accepting ownership of this. And I also like that it still wasn't enough for Millie because she was like, I, okay, you're sorry. Like, okay, but this is my stuff.

I have to deal with this in my head. Like, I don't need your permission to forgive myself. I need to handle me. There's just, again, it's like an autonomy story. where she is centered in herself. It was great. Yeah. I hated for her.

I feel bad, but she looks hot and seems like she's on the right path. And I guess I'm not worried about her. I know she's crying in her car, but sometimes we do that for fun. Sometimes you just need a good cry. Girl, if the Celine Dion song comes on, you know I'm going to feel some things. I love it. Little Paula Cole. Oh, come on.

Shanae O'Connor. Come on. Just like the old emo. Girl. Songstresses. I want to hurt. My girlfriend, Betty Hu, just covered. Oh, she's so.

I just watched it. Did you see the political cover? I just, that's why I said, oh, God. I know. It killed me. Yeah, she's cool. I was like, more of this, please. We got to send it to all our Dawson's friends.

It is really, really good. Do we think they're going to get back together? He kept the glasses in the drawer, which I like, because when men leave things planted in their apartment, it means they don't plan on bringing anything new over or they're sadistic. But I don't think Mouth's a sadist. I don't think he's... I don't either. Yeah, I'm, as much as I don't love the way that they've written some of this stuff for Mouth, I just, I love. like Mouth and Millie together. I think, I think my, my hope is that they get past, you know,

some petulant writing. Because he's already said, even though Terry wrote really like lovely things for him to say in this episode, he said some heinous shit in previous episodes. And it's like, it was not cool. Oh, it's hard to, it's hard to get over. Yeah. I will say, though, what I do really appreciate is him him owning his behavior finally. You know, I felt like that was a really long time coming. Well, was that another dig at our boss? You said on the last episode that Mike Harrow was taken digs at our boss with all of the like creepy

director behavior. And so there's a part of me with all this text message talk that makes me think that maybe Terry was playing the same card because the text messages. We're relentless. Well, and the text message is like Gigi's entire storyline is our boss's fantasy of how he wishes women would throw themselves at him. So yeah, I wonder, I wonder if there's some sort of role reversal call out happening with mouth there. Yeah, just even like participating in that when you're in a relationship is no Bueno. Well, yeah, and I don't know what was happening in season six, but I definitely know, you know, some of our sweet friends who come in next season,

I do know that one of the things our boss would do to them a lot would be like, oh, yeah, send me a picture of your fitting. Like, I want to see what the outfits are, like, you know, wardrobe is slow. And then it would be like, well, you know, But you've got a scene, you have a love scene with so-and-so, like, what are the underwear options? And he would essentially, like, under the guise of needing to pick wardrobe, like, force women to send photos of themselves in underwear to him. Are you fucking kidding? I'm not.

So I wonder, I wonder if, I wonder if he had tried to pull that with any of our sweet little guest stars this season. and if that was part of the Gigi of it all. I don't know. I'd be very curious to ask. Relatless. Also, I'm just like, what a loser. Like, you really have nothing better to do. You have the whole internet at your disposal.

Like, why do you have to bug people? Your professionals at your disposal. The whole internet at your disposal to find whatever kind of pictures you're looking for. Why you got to make people uncomfortable? Take your kink elsewhere, sir. Thank you. You know what kind of kink we like? cutie couples in the houses what kind of kinks we don't be in a creep

to people who don't want you to be a creep in their cell phones yeah don't be a cell phone creep i hate that dan's being a fucking creep in the episode the flip dude the flip and it was exactly what we talked about last week we love dan scott so much in this in these moments we can't believe it he seems different And then the flip on Deb, I was like, oh, there he is. He almost got us, didn't he? He almost got us. We knew better.

Yeah. See, this is why I don't trust my judgment. Every time. We fall for it every time with Dan Scott. Oh, how come you and Nanny Deb aren't together? And you're thinking, I get it, Jamie. I'd want them to get back together too. Yeah, because you love them both so much.

And then Deb is like, not today. And then he blames her. We need to be more Deb. We need to be like, no, I'm going to hate you forever and then 10 more years after forever. Yeah. She's cold blood. I like that. You know what I call that?

I call that a strong boundary. Thank you, Trevor. Thanks, Trevor. I appreciate your therapist, Trevor, because I get like the trickle-down effect where now you talk me off my ledges. Yeah. It works out great for everybody. it's been it's been wonderful did you think when deb was looking at that photo album that she was going to make a pass it down or something i would i caught myself holding my breath yeah right yeah i was like what is this what's happening are we reminiscing what

what and then ah i see you know what she was doing she was compartmentalizing the way that we do where we're like everything's fine it's great i hate you but you'd never know I think makes sense. I'm fantasizing about plotting your death, but you'd never know. Oh, my God. Yeah, Deb, she's a great actress, Deb. Well, and the shock then, because they really get into it, and it gets heightened and heightened. Yeah.

And it starts in this sweet memory, right, with Disney. So then the photo album makes sense, and you're kind of like, oh, my God, what's happening is this family finding some semblance of healing? and do we want that? And then she slaps him with it. And then he really just, God, he comes back. He grabbed her. Yeah, he comes back in full force and he grabs her and he's vicious. And then in walks the kid with the beeper.

And you go, now? Right when she says, I can't wait for you to die. Like, that makes me believe in justice. God. All right. Oh, boy. Yeah, well, look, we all know what's going to happen. It's one of the most legendary moments in Tree Hill history.

and I can't wait to talk about it. Oh, that poor dog. What was your honorable mention for this episode? Honestly, for me, I'd give the honorable mention to Terry, to our writer. Yeah. I think he did such a beautiful job. He really got my gallows humor. And so my honorable mention is for the specific lines where Peyton's like, oh, I'm going to haunt your ass.

But just think that she says, think about how much. Jake Jigelsky single dad tale you're going to get. The Jake Jigelsky reference in the midst of the super traumatic talk. It's so funny. Guys, this is why I'm always making like horrible jokes right when we're about

to get really vulnerable because it's what they did to me on this show. They just ingrained this morbid sense of... I love it. Fuck it up. I love it. I need it. Because I'll, you know, I'll sit and talk about feelings all day.

I need you to be like, shut up and drink this. I'm like, okay. Yin and yang, I hope you all have your yin and yang partner out there in the world. We have a question, baby. What's our question here? It's from Jamie. If you girls had had a cheer coach in the earlier seasons, who would you have liked to cast for that role? Yeah.

Oh, fun. Okay, so I had some real cheer coaches. And that really stood out to me. And I'm trying to think of, like, who their celebrity counterpart was. I had Linda Harmon, who was, like, the tiniest little Italian woman who would just tear our asses up. I mean, she was terrifying. But we were the best. We were the best cheerleading squad.

Yeah. You lived to impress her. Oh, God. I loved her. I don't know why. And maybe this is just because we are so nostalgic for them because we've met them now and they've been so kind to us. But what I would give for, like, another iconic teen show actress, like, imagine if Tiffany Theson or Jenny Garth had been our cheer coach, like someone from 90210 or saved by the belt, like, Kelly Kapowski is our cheer coach, come on. Yeah, that would have crushed for sure.

I would have flipped. Yeah. Yeah, that's the ticket. That's the real answer. Yeah. No, I like that. I mean, you know how much she meant to me in real life. Being able to kind of coach me after leaving this show. Having a, all my coaches were like grownups, like moms. They were older. But having a chick that's only like eight years older than you, 10 years older than you. They're close enough to what you're going through that they're not going to talk down to you. Well, and it would have been such a cool person to have on the show because for anyone who doesn't want to go to a parent with a problem, you have this older peer. It's like a real intergenerational friendship. I would have really liked that.

Yeah, that's the right answer. I love that. In a parallel universe, our cheerleading avatars are with her. Yeah, Tiffany's the best. There's just nobody cooler. Let's spit a wheel. All right, we have a most likely to... Oh.

Most likely to buy a motorcycle without telling their partner. I mean, he's not on our show, but that's your husband. He's literally walking in the door right now. Come here. We just... You know how we... do most likely to on the podcast? We just spun the wheel and the question is, who is most likely to buy a motorcycle without telling their partner? And Sophie is like, it's you. I said he's not on

our show, but it's Jeffrey. Hi, sugar. I totally win that. I just bought a car without a don't talk. Stop it. Get out. What did he? Did he really? Yeah, my husband wasn't on the show, but he almost was his Uncle Keith? But is it Craig Schaeffer then? Is it chef? Yeah. Sheffer would probably do that. Because didn't we see pictures of him

riding motorcycles with his daughter, Willow? Yes. Yeah, it's chef. It's Uncle Keith. Yeah, because I don't think any of the other boys ride motorcycles. Well, Austin always would show up to lunch in L.A. on a fucking basketball.

Oh, that's right. He thought it was a motorcycle. I was like, Austin, what is this girl bike era? Well, he had that old, he bought like one of those cool old vintage triumphs and I think it like never started. And then he, him and Patty did that trip to Italy. And he was like, Vespas are cool? And we were all like, are they? I'm so mean to poor Osmond. And that just means that I love him so much. I'm rough on him. You tease him the most probably because we talk to him the most. Well, yeah. It's safe. Yeah, it feels right. Yeah. You got to punch your

brotherly figures every once in a while. Because he's cute. He's cute. It's like you hit the cute boy. Sorry. Season 6, episode 18 next week, searching for a former clarity. Fingers crossed, we survive. The titles really make me nervous sometimes. I'm like, does that mean it's going to be a bummer? I don't know. We'll see.

Friends, thanks for joining us. We will see if we get Joy from Sophia next week. You guys, I'm never going to get over it. I don't know why it makes me laugh so much. You have to go. I want to go. Sophia and Sophia? Me and my town?

I've never been to Bulgaria. I would like to go. If someone can find me a town named Hillary, that's your project, America. Okay. Go nuts. If you liked the outdoors, we could get you a bunch of snowboarding gear from Burton,

but you don't want that. You want me to camp? Christ. I would take you, but I know you won't go with me, so it's fun. I'll go one day. All right. One time, you heard it here, folks, she promised.

I love you. I love you. See you next week. Bye, guys. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's O-TH or email us at Dramaquins at iHeartRadio.com.

See you next time. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama, girl. Chearing for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. Smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you're tough girl.

You could sit with us, girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Drama, drama queens, drama queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis the 4th, who opened the first native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.