Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Alex Edelman

Episode Date: June 20, 2024

Comedian Alex Edelman is having a moment in the spotlight. Yet, he admits his 8-year-old self would never believe he works in an industry that requires talking in front of so many people. The writer, producer, and comic joins Sophia to talk about how he got his start in comedy and the journey from open mic nights to Broadway with his highly acclaimed show "Just For Us". He dives into the valuable lessons he learned while crafting the show and how he felt receiving a Special Tony Award for his work.   The comedian also discusses his criteria for choosing jobs, his distinct pet peeve, and what he's looking for in his next relationship! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Good day, Whipsmarties, or for anyone who's listening at night, good evening. I am absolutely tickled for today's episode because I'm going to to sit down with one of my favorite minds, who also happens to be one of my favorite friends. Hands down, one of the most impactful friendships I've made in the last half decade is with today's guest. He is an acclaimed comedian, writer, producer, and actor. This year, he was named

Times 100 list of the world's most influential people. He just won a special Tony Award in recognition of his breakthrough stand-up show. And he happens to be one of the smartest thinkers kindest souls, and honestly, most motivating and interesting people that I know, I call him anytime I have a weird thought or a problem, and I know I'm not the only person lucky enough to know him who feels that way. Out in the world, people are obsessed with him for good reason. And that's because this year, a show he's worked on for five years called Just For Us went absolutely viral. He began tinkering on the show in 2018. and he just finished its run on Broadway,

and now the show is available streaming on Max. Just for Us is a special that Alex wrote in the wake of a lot of anti-Semitic threats pointed at him online. He began trying to figure out why people hate and very quickly found himself voluntarily walking into a meeting of white nationalists to try to see if he could learn anything about these people and maybe they could learn anything about him. that fascinating experience is what led him to write just for us and it is absolutely funny

heartbreaking poignant thought-provoking and every other thing that i believe good art is it's actually his second big special his first millennial won the prestigious foster's best newcomer prize at the edinburgh fringe festival he's actually only the second american to have ever done that and in between that show and just for us he has been a staff writer on several television series He's written and produced documentaries based on his love of sports for ESPN's 30430 and his love of politics and systems for the U.S. State Department. He is a journalist for outlets like The Atlantic and the Believer, and he was the headwriter of Saturday Night's Seder, an all-star variety special that aired during the pandemic

and raised over three and a half million charitable dollars for the CDC's COVID-19 emergency relief fund. I have no idea in this man finds the time to sleep, let alone take my phone calls, but he manages to do it all. And today, we're going to find out how. Enjoy. It's actually very fun to do this with you because you've become one of my closest friends over the last almost half decade. And now I feel giggly. I'm like, I can't wait. What am I going to interview? How do I interview you? How do I pretend to be like a journalist right now? I mean, honestly, let's just pretend we've never met or something like that.

You can interview me as a sports fan, as a comedian, and as a proud Christian, you can have me, you can interview me in through any of these things. Wonderful. I can't wait to learn your expertise on that last subject there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually do this with a lot of people who come on the show because I feel like, you know, for myself or for listeners, you meet someone as, you know, a fan of what they're doing in the present or a project that's just released or whatever. But I actually really love to ask people

to go backwards with me before we sit in the today. And if you were to meet yourself at, let's say, eight or nine years old, would you see your current self in that little kid? Do you see the through line of, you know, what he loved, what he was interested in, and the artist and, like, creative person you are today? Yes. I mean, I think, I think you'd see an eight or nine year old Alex, uh, just trying to just sort of figure everything out, but also in love with various, like, you know, in love of various little things, like in love. with baseball and in love with various odd books and in love with American history and like I think my job is like a dilettante job it's like a job for someone who just like likes a lot of

things and I think as a like child I just loved so many different things and it's um and I found a job that let me basically I monetize my ADHD that's what I'm monetized my childhood ADHD and turned it into something that could be exploited in front of audiences. But I do think that eight or nine-year-old may be surprised that I talked to people. I was very, I was like very quiet and very like a reader and had trouble looking adults in the face. And my first boss at the Red Sox, a really wonderful woman named Colleen Riley. She was like, you know, she had a, she ought to be like, hey, when someone talks to you, you should look at them, which sounds like, you know, silly advice or patronizing advice,

but, like, I needed it. I didn't know. I didn't know that. Like, there was someone at the Red Sox who quite, who I'm less fond of who would call me Dr. Shoes because she was like, you're always looking at your shoes when you're speaking. So I was like, for anyone listening, I got a job with the Red Sox when I was a teenager, 13 or 14 years old. So I had this, uh, I, I was around adults.

but, like, it grew me up pretty quickly, and it grew me up in, like, a bunch of ways. But when I was eight or nine, I would have been shit. I'd be like, I have a job talking to people. No, thanks. My job should be writing. Wow, I love that. I think for some of us, like, you and I are systems thinkers. We know a bunch of random facts.

We're turns out quite good at trivia. More on that later. But, like, sometimes the basic stuff doesn't compute. And, you know, you're. You're like sort of a genius, but yeah, you needed somebody to tell you to make eye contact with them while you were speaking. And I think that is sort of very sweet. Although whenever anyone's like 80 issues, a superpower and I'm like, miss me with that superpower, would kill not to have this insane superpower? I hear you on the miss me with it, but when I remove myself from being your friend and I click into being like the journalist who research,

as strangers for this show. And I look at your resume and know that you're, you know, developing a film that you'll write, direct, and star in. I know that you've been a staff writer on so many different television series. You've written and directed not only, you know, for scripted, but also documentaries, like 30 for 30, which is your love of sports all the way to the U.S. State Department, which is your love of all things, system and politics like me. You've, as a journalist written for the Atlantic and the believer, been profiled.

in times 100. You won a fucking honorary Tony because your play was so impactful. Like, I get that as a human being, you might not have loved it, but I also see the incredible smattering of things you've been so wonderful at. And I would say I still view you as a person with a superpower.

I mean, that's nice, but a superpower, like, I wonder sometimes if my work ethic could be a little bit different if I didn't have ADHD, right? If I had a different work ethic, then maybe I could do even more. I could do, you know, I could be even more profoundly productive. I could be even more interested in the right things. And you know what's so what's, what's, there's a weird catch-22 for me, which is that I desperately need ADHD medication and I do not take it. I just don't. And so because it makes me really sad, it makes me really, but I have had, you know, know there was a point in my life I was writing on a TV show I won't say which one and I

sent me off on draft and I wasn't getting anything done and then I took the ADHD medication which means when you're a writer on staff they'll send you to write an episode that's when they send you off on draft and they sent me off to write this episode and I took the medication that I am prescribed for the first time in you know probably a year and I finished my episode in like 36 hours I just sat down on my desk over the weekends that I was assigned it and just went, did you eat while you did that? Did I eat while I did that? It was, no.

I actually, that's a really amazing thing. Like, I really distinctly remember, like, not eating at all, like, just being like. Yeah, that's tricky. Like, and it's, it's so hard. These medications are such a, you know, I also had. friends who occasionally would ask me like, hey, can I have one of your pills? And I was always going to be like, you don't want this. You don't want the, you know.

But it's a, but it's like a, it's a thing people don't fully understand, which is like, why would they, unless they had it? But like the urge sometimes, I will be on a phone call. I really need to be on. And I will put the phone call on speaker, go to my phone and start playing a game when I should be like, sometimes it will have, like, lifelong. implications these phone calls like genuinely I was on phone call with like a lawyer about something and I was like yep time to do minesweeper you know like it's

yeah my brain requires like so much activity to be stimulated and like also sometimes I was I a couple of years ago I was like I should be doing something right now I know you should be doing so I had this distinct thought I was like I should be doing so oh I'm driving I'm driving like that was the I was like literally daydream about something and I was starting to day to remember about the thing I need to be doing and then I was like so if you ever see like comedian Alex Edelman killed in vehicle crash like please know that there's a distinct possibility that I was just like contemplating you know some obscure fact and then just like well and that you were trying your best to pay attention I have that thing

I struggle to be on phone calls it's actually why I really like Zoom because I can look at people and it holds my attention but you know one of the things that has helped me when you said the thing earlier about wishing you could be more productive like maybe if you had a more neurotypical brain you'd be better at crossing through

all the things on your to-do list one of the things I've also learned about being non-neurotypical is that like people who are feel proud when they accomplish something they're like hey I did that I'm proud of myself or like, good for me.

They can give themselves a pat on the back and we're so averse to that. Like, you do something, you win an award and you're like, so? And? I mean, I'm proud. I'm proud of my awards. Do you feel proud?

Good. I bet it was going to be my question because the show in particular, I mean, I want to hear a little bit about how you got started in comedy, but, you know, I, as a friend and a fan, I've seen iterations of your special for almost four years now.

I've watched just for us in small theaters and, you know, seeing you take it to Broadway and been in the audience at the Mark Taper Forum more times than I actually can remember the sweet ticket takers there started to be like, hey, Sophia, I was like, what's up, dudes? That's right. You came so many times in LA. You're like, can I come see it again? I was like, bro, you've seen this already. You know, I don't know that the end. But for me, it's like it's so, A, so important, B, I love to support my friends and C, I really wanted every single person that I know to see the show, which, you know, for our friends at home now you can on HBO. It is streaming on Max. Just for us is incredible. And as I mentioned, won an honorary Tony, which is such a huge, incredible deal. They were just like, oh, we're not even going to nominate you in a category. We're just going to give it to you. You win the award. No one else will compete. I think that's like, one of the cooler things I've ever seen. And, you know, the show, this has been such a big hype year for it. But you started writing it in 2018. I think so many people who don't do what we do don't realize how long it takes to make these things.

Can you tell our friends at home what the special is about? And then I want to dig into kind of like the process of doing something like this and of comedy in general with you. So Just for us is about this guy who's a janitor at MIT, but he's smarter than a lot of the professors that work there, and his best friend has Ben Affleck, and his philosopher, is Robin Williams.

Incredible. His psychiatrist, but, yeah, philosophers are all the names. He's kind of a philosopher. The show is about a Jewish man, not me, who goes to this meaning of white nationals in Queens, and he sits there for a little while, and then eventually when I was like, sorry, but this guy's

Jew, and I'm like, yeah, I'm a Jew. And so that's what the show is about. I went to this thing. It's based on this real story, and yeah, I've, I did the show in Scotland at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival in 2018. And won there as well. It won an award there and was nominated for an award in Australia. And it was a nice thing that I had. And I sort of put it away for a little while to write on some television shows.

And then at the beginning of 2020, I was like, you know, I really want to recommit myself to live comedy. And I really want to recommit myself just for us. And then a pandemic happened. But when the show came back in 2021 in New York, or actually January 2022, it just ran and ran, thank God. And it went to Broadway last year and almost exactly a year ago. And as toured, it is now on Max. It's like this incredible, the most beautiful, fulsome creative experience of my life apart from like a thing I do with my friends in the pandemic.

It's been this really special, it's really, really special show. And behind it, there's this comets tale of joy and collaboration and grief and difficulty. It's the sort of like aggregate of all of my happinesses and hardships over the last couple of years. I love it a lot. And I'm very proud of the show. I'm very, very proud of it. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. Thank you.

Did it feel obvious or a little intimidating to take it off the stage and make it into a special? It felt both obvious and intimidating, because I knew I didn't want to fumble the ball at the one yard line, so to speak. More people would watch just for us in the first two hours of it on HBO than had seen it in the years that I'd been performing yet. just you know yeah so it was it was something that I and also it's my permanent record of this big chapter of my life and so we really really focused on making sure that that thing was really really like well cared for and we got this guy named Alex Timbers who's like the greatest greatest Broadway director and he he he used he was the creative consultant and de facto director of the show on Broadway and just did this really incredible job but I was really

scared and thank God one of the reasons we did it with HBO is because they took so much care in they let us know that they were going to let us film it on Broadway which is where I wanted to shoot it they let us know that they were going to let us edit it

the way that we wanted for however long we wanted and we worked really hard on this thing but it was so it was so terrifying thinking oh my God what if this thing that worked live does not work as a film's product which happens a lot.

Like, sometimes you see a great live thing, and then it doesn't work, it doesn't work on film, and you're just like, so, like, it was really, thank God, I think it's come out really beautifully, the special, I think it's really, really nice, but I was really, really, I was so freaked.

Wow. Sorry to give you that rambling. No, I love it. I love it. I think there's an assumption that when you're an artist, it's all just easy for you. I don't think people understand

that it's like, you kind of have to be willing, to like pull out your own fingernails it's hard and personal and it and it has um it has such effect on you emotionally and physically and psychologically and you know i've had to figure out how to process like getting scenes i film out of my body because your body doesn't know something isn't real is that true for you yeah you know like to to to shoot something let's say on a movie or a TV show where I lose a loved one. Like to grieve like that, to suffer like that, your body experiences like the pain and the

trauma, you know, when you cry for six hours at work, like, it takes a toll and you have to figure out how to separate. And there's a whole different sort of toll. It's beautiful and exhausting. It's like this incredible, you know, when you see those birds like fight in the air and they're like spiraling, but they're flying, but they're falling. A death spiral, sure. Yeah, it feels like a death spiral to be on stage to me in the best way.

Like, it makes me feel alive and a little high and also the most tired I've ever been when I get off. And I thought about that a lot for you because, you know, last summer I went to the West End to do a forehander and it was wild. And I've watched you do this one, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've watched you do this one-man show. over and over again and you know

I feel like you're bubby like I check in and I'm like are you eating have you had water did you sleep how is travel but I thought about that a lot for you the toll of the cadence you know so we had a weird tragedy

on our show where our director Adam Brace who was my closest pal passed away and then when that happened I mean it was really we worked together Adam I for 11 years and we had this amazing collaboration, and we did three solo shows together.

We did all my solo work, was with, ironically. It's weird to say something's a solo show, and it's a huge amount of people work on these shows, and you get really great creative input from literally everyone, and it's shaped by all these things. But Adam was my most significant collaborator, and then when he died, all of my friends sort of showed up for me, which was really beautiful and surprising and sublime,

I'm like Benj Passick, most of all, who you know who's my, I'm sure we'll come walking through the, I'm spending some time with Ben, but like right before this podcast. So, so that's why we're, but Benj, Benj really showed up for me and my friend Shoshana and Jake, and you were a big part of that. You were, you were checking in constantly and, and like, I think people, like you say, everyone thinks it's easy for artists. the thing that I think not everyone gets is that it's actually really it's hard and I think people that do musicals or people that do plays it's actually really harder you have to carry

so at least I'm doing my own stuff so I'm sort of carrying my own water but like once I started doing Broadway I began to understand how difficult it is to like I want to just go I just wanted to see Sarah Paulson in her in that show appropriate. I saw it too, yeah. I can't believe how hard she's working. Like, there are so many of these shows, I've seen all these plays and all these musicals and people are working their ass off. Like, Sheena Taub is doing that musical sucks. Like, she's working so hard on stage. Like, I don't understand how they do it. And I don't understand how everyone else is in constantly, like, like, they can make a million dollars a day. They're not making enough. Like it's really, really, really, really, really, really difficult. And by the way,

obviously, everyone should get paid more for all of their, all of their work for, for pretty much every job, especially stockbroker. But I'm kidding. I was like, especially the teachers and you're like, it's the finance guys. They need more money. Exactly. If you're a hedge fund guy, it would just be great for me to make $10 million more a year so you can make $210 million instead of 200 but um but yeah i mean like i i frankly didn't respect uh stage actors the way that i should have because i had never seen it up close yeah that way and it's it was uh it's really difficult and you need people to constantly be check in you need to be like babysat by our entire goddamn community it's ridiculous well it's it's so all-consuming and i remember thinking you know because

i i traditionally come from tv sometimes on movies you have time, but TV is so like you're going 100 miles an hour and you're doing it 16 hours a day. I'm used to not having a moment. So when I was, when I signed on for the West End, I was like, oh my God, essentially up four hours a day. I've never had so much free time in my life. Yeah, sure, fine. Two show weekends. Turns out a two show weekend is actually a five show weekend because it's one on Friday, two on Saturday, two on Sunday, but whatever. I learned a lot fast. The person who thank God helped me to not go in completely blind and oblivious was Brian Cranston. I had seen him in LBJ.

I'd seen him do network. Anytime Brian's on Broadway, I'm going. And by happenstance, we were at the same Easter gathering the April before I left for London. And he was like, oh, this is so exciting, asking me all these questions. And I said, yeah, and you know, I feel like how fun it'll be. I'm going to live near the theater, but I can tube around, and I'll go to the VNA, and I'll see all the art exhibits, and I'll do great things during the day. Yeah, famous last words, lady.

Yeah, on Mondays, I'll take the tube somewhere far away, and I'll really get to know London and the greater area. And Brian looked at me, and he said, you're going to be lucky if you make it out of the house before you have to be at the theater every night. He said it will take everything out of you, and then you will give what you don't have to do the stage door every night. because people will line up and the reason we make art is for other people

he said and you will go home and you won't be able to sleep until two or three in the morning and then you will sleep and when you wake up you'll feel like you've been run over and you'll do it again because for some reason we love it and I was like wait what I'm not going to sight see and he was like

oh honey and thank God he told me I don't do art for other people you do it just for you I do it for that sweet sweet cash baby I thought it was just for us, Alex, for us. No, when I say just for us, I mean, stock, give it in. No, I'm doing it.

Yeah, that's why I got into comedy. That's why I wanted to do as open mics in Boston. Because you made so much money at open mics. Okay, wait, that actually is great. I love this segue because we're jumping around in the way that we do. Your special has come out. It's Broadway. It's filmed.

It's HBO. It's the special Tony Award. I realized I called it honorary earlier. a degree. No, special Tony Award, not honorary Tony Award. But how did you get started? Like, how does a quirky young kid who grew up in the sort of home environment you did, which was you know, pretty ultra-conservative, you wind up working for the Red Sox because you love sports? Like, how do you left turn into stand-up? Where does it start? Is it an open mic? Is it that someone tells you you're funny and you should try, like, how did it begin to get you here

where we sit today? I mean, I started pretty much, I started pretty heavily at open mics, music over mics, in particular. My upbringing wasn't, my upbringing wasn't ultra-conservative. It was, like, moderately, it was moderately, like, it was religious, so there was some like that. But frankly, like my parents gave me, you know, you can't do this anymore. I don't think in any American city, but my parents in Boston, the early 2000s were like, just go do your thing. Just like, go do whatever you want. And like, they let me rollerblade everywhere. Like, I rollerbladed all around Boston. I would just sort of like do what I needed to do. And they were really understanding and like if I was interested in music I'd go to a concert and if I was

interested in so like in some ways I had like a pretty permissive thing although I didn't even like discover everything like I remember I wanted to see like I want to see like a movie at midnight because this like really cool girl in my town in Brookline I met her at like a Starbucks and I had like a big old crush on her and she was like oh they show these midnight movies at the Coolidge Corner Theater and they have this movie called El Topo which is like this Jodoroski like Mexican art film about like a lone gunman

and I went to this thing at midnight and I was like I don't know what any of this is and I didn't know about the existence of like art films I'd only ever seen like Disney animated movies that were like PG

so like I had this whole discovery process and I guess stand up was part of that but it was a hobby I just never quit like I've not quit a lot of the stuff that I like a lot of the stuff that I became interested in as a child

I'm still interested in. There's still a big part of me that thinks that one day I'm going to become a macrobiologist, even though I've never shown any aptitude for it and have none of the education for it. There's still a part of me that thinks I'm getting drafted into the NHL.

And every year the draft comes out and I'm never chosen. And the odds of them picking the Boston Bruins taking a 35-year-old comedian seemed pretty slim. But like, yeah, everything I was interested in as a kid, I had the sort of real world privilege to follow.

And by the way, that's why that is privilege, right? Like, to be able to just show up, like, I think people don't understand that 90% of it is just, if you just keep showing up eventually, they let you in. It takes longer sometimes depending on who you are, but like, and like, it's easier if you're like a straight presenting, white presenting, man presenting, like, if you have those privileges that is a really that that that tilts the balance in your favor but like I would just show up places and be interested and like bang my head against the wall and some people I really alienated and was because I know it was really annoying but eventually like they just kind of let you in

so so that was that was my like very very first start and then um sorry I'm talking for too long so I love it and now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy and I think you will too You're talking about perseverance, though, and one of the things that I worry about for us a little bit, not just with, like, the fact that our attention spans have shortened because of the internet and the constant ability to drag your thumb and refresh. But I also fear, and I had a conversation about this recently with one of my mentor's kids. I really cherish intergenerational friendships. And, you know, I sat with this group of kids

in their mid-20s and... Intergenerational friendships is... Yeah. Okay, yeah. Oh, like so important. And I sat with these kids, and what frightened me for them is that they think they're supposed to have everything now.

everything figured out know who their person is but I mean even like stuff like they they're just like well I should live in the apartment on the cover of Architectural Digest and I should and I was like

whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa like I worry that we can like see into each other's stuff so much that it's made us like even more obsessed I know everyone's always been obsessed with stuff I mean look at the American economy and the era of madmen like

sure we've got a lot of stuff But I was like, you guys, you don't even think it's going to be cool to like work up to something. Like I, I, when I turned 40 and like looked around and went, oh, look, there's like some stuff I've achieved. Like I didn't know if I was going to be here when I was 25. And I've done these things that I feel really excited about. You know, I appreciate that evolution in my own life. And I was like, don't, please don't think it. that you're supposed to have everything that the 40-year-olds and the 60-year-olds in your life

have. Like, give yourself time. You know, I love the era where I was, like, doing all my meals at the bodega because it was the only way I could afford to live in New York for the summer. Like, I loved that. And I don't want people to lose it. I think there's also, like, just to, in terms of, like, you know, I should not have gotten in any of the attention that I got for just for us, a minute before I got it.

And now it's harder. We'd say more about that. Well, the best gift that you can get as a creative person is anonymity. Because anonymity affords you the ability to iterate free of any pressure, free of commercial expectation free of and by the way there are pressures that are economic right like some people need to put out stuff that they can't afford not everyone can afford to iterate on a musical for two decades right like not everyone can afford to like have a passion project album that takes like you know like three years you need to make money today but like you know I worked unjust for us

in various forms before I went to Broadway for five years some of those jokes are six or seven years old. Where were some of the places you worked on it that people might not know about? Storytelling nights. I did, no one ever asks this. That's really, like, I would also, England as this, I became really heavily involved in the comedy scene in England. And I went there for my last year of college and fell really hard into this group of comedians and artists at the Soho Theater. Chief among them was Phoebe Wallerbridge. She was like, someone who was the leading light at this theater. And Adam, my collaborator, worked on Fleabag.

He helped out. And Phoebe's part, Adam dated for a very long time, Vicki Jones, who was Phoebe's co-writer in Fleabag and a brilliant creative moment of her own. But like in England, they have this system called the preview system because they're aware that people need to iterate. So all these different pubs in East London or North London or little towns outside, they'll expect three comedians to come and each do an hour or something

on a Tuesday night in June as they prepare for the Edinburgh Festival. And if you're, if you hustle, you can book like 20, 30, 40 of these previews. Whoa. So I would do the show or any of my solo shows as hour long sets in continued repetition for two or three months. And everyone, like, my, like, break wasn't just for us. It was a show called Millennial that I did a decade ago in 2014. And it was about the millennial generation before the word became ubiquitous.

So I was sort of explaining what it was. And I did these shows. I moved to England in, like, May of 2014. And I rented a little apartment and a part of an alumni. and called Crofton Pond and I said, I am not leaving this apartment until, like, not like day on day, but like I will stay in this room until August and then I will go to Adam Brown in between my only goal is going to be getting ready for this show. And I would go to, I did this show dozens of times rarely in front of more than 20 people. And like, and the gift of anonymity

to work on your shows, like I do lots of unannounced shows or shows that I only in announce to my Instagram or to my email list because like my process and I will oftentimes leave New York or leave L.A. to go to weird little places in like the north of Wales or like like you have to find darkness to work in. You need to tinker especially if your medium is a performance one. You need to find a place where you can iterate and if you are famous that is really hard and I'm not famous but I have worked with lots of famous comedians on their material, on their specials, and they weirdly don't get the opportunity to incubate in quiet that lesser-known people do. And because of that, it is much harder for them to sort of generate

the thoroughness that people who are, people who have less eyes on them can. So sometimes people, I have a friend who's a really brilliant comedian, and he's always bemoaning the fact that he doesn't have more, like, doesn't have more oomph. Yeah. And I'm like, buddy, you're going to pop. When you do it, you're going to pop in a big way. And you'll have all this material that just is there because you've had all this time to incubate it. So, and by the way, he will.

He's really, really good. But it's like, like, he, I think, like, I miss the ability to iterate completely anonymously. and often have to like artificially recreate that. I feel that really deeply. I think, and look, it's the golden handcuffs, right? Like for me, I didn't know my first show was going to be such a big deal. And I went from like, you know, three years post-graduating from an all-girl school to being on TV. Like, there were 55 girls in my graduating class and suddenly I was on this like global hit show, which is a blessing,

but also such a curse because you can't fuck up in private you can't learn your lessons in private you know and like even for me

as someone who loves comedy as much as I do like you know we just did this big all like queer you know female and non-binary entertainer

reading performance of Wayne's world at the Annenberg theater and all these people like pinch me moment the writer of legally blonde

comes up to me and is like you are so funny like I had no idea how funny you were And I was like, well, thanks. I guess I spent like 10 years sobbing, but I love him on TV. So like, I don't know, maybe everyone thinks I'm melodramatic.

But I remember like, you know, when Chelsea Handler's show was on and she was doing like the roundtables with all the comedians, a bunch of those people were like, you really should try comedy. I think you'd love it. Like you're quick. You have like dry wit. And I never did it because I was like, it's too scary for me. Because I feel like I'd get made fun of. I feel like the way that I would have to learn. like anybody who does it has to learn.

I don't have the privilege to do anymore because I'm not anonymous because I was on this fucking teen TV show. But maybe you have to get out of your own way. I don't know. Do you know that curve of like knowledge competence thing? No, tell me about this. Where it's just like if you, when you start, you have to know that you have to not know that you're as you,

when you start something, you need to not know how bad you are at it in order to suggest. to that step. Because if you started something and knew how awful you were, you would quit. Yes. Like a first draft is supposed to be bad. Yeah, but what I mean is you're supposed to a thousand percent not know that you're shitty at comedy when you start comedy. Because if you were an expert in comedy and you start a comedy, you would go, oh my God, this is terrible. Like I have a friend who's like constantly threatening to start comedy and I want to be like but you you will be terrible and also you know too much about comedy to ever like get past that place where you're just

like truly horrific yeah you don't have the you don't have the privilege of being naive oh yeah I mean like my friend Josh Weller is a comedian who's switched, who was friends of the million comedians and switched over a bunch of years ago from music, who's a musician in a band called The Kenneth's to comedy, and I was a really good comedian. But he had to start knowing how awful he was. And I said, this is going to be really, really difficult for you because you are going to, you know too much. You're like slightly behind the matrix. You've like sat with us in like vans and buses from like, you know, from like Lester to Birmingham. And, uh, and now you're going to have to just like, like,

like, be shit at something. It's like a really, really... Oh, God, it's so scary. But he got there. I mean, like, it's a really... God, the competence, that curve is a really, like... Yeah. And by the way, once you get to a certain point,

you look back at how bad you were, and you're just like, oh, my God. And by the way, I hope I do that now, or in like 10 years. I hope I look back to where I am now. And I'm like, oh, God, I was so shitty. It was so terrible. I was such a lesser comedian,

and I could have, you know, I could be more. but like... Well, that's actually really interesting that you say that because you are in that sort of mid-point. I mean, you're at the top of your game

undoubtedly, but when you think about your life and where you've come from and how you started at these open mics and you'd go to work these pubs pre-Edembera and all these things, I think another thing

people don't really realize about what we do is when a job ends, you have to start over. Like you start from ground zero. You are starting with more awareness, you are starting with more expertise, but now you're going to start ideating your next comedy show. How do you do that from this place of experience? Do you feel more pressured because you're no longer naive? Or do you feel like it's a little easier because you've proven to yourself that you can do this at such a level?

You know, Benj Pasek, who, like I keep repeatedly mentioning, who is my closest living pal. And not to be dark, not to a little dark human, but Ben... I feel like Adam would actually appreciate that joke, so hats off to him. Absolutely appreciate it. But Benj, Ben's my closest living pal, and also a genius lyricist, songwriter, composer. He wrote all the music for La La La Land, the greatest showman, and Dear Evan. Hansen, he's constantly telling me that I have tools that I don't even realize that I had, or, you know, I don't even realize that I have, and that I'm now better equipped to go on and do

the other thing. You have to trust that sometimes, and this isn't woo-woo. This is how I make decisions. Like, I really make decisions based on this. Like, and it's not like, airy-fairy. I do this, like, quite cynically. I will choose jobs and opportunities based on how much I'll learn. I will choose jobs and opportunities based on how much I'm like, how much I can steal, right? Like, how many things can I go into a room with 10 smart people with and take out with me?

Like, that's why TV writers is such a big part of my process. Like, I try to go into a TV writer in every couple of years, not just because it's nice to have healthcare, and it is nice to have healthcare, but also because like you're in this room with between six and 10 or six and 12

the funniest, sharpest people you've ever met that range from, it really experienced genre-defining television writers to writers' assistants who are really bright and have had to fight so hard to get the jobs that they are in that everybody wants. And so, like, and someone specifically curates this room for a vibe, like a team, and then you sit there and listen to these people who are so lucky to be around. And, like, I have, a lot of Just For Us came out of other people's brains. like in terms of like the approaches that I saw people take in terms of like the things I saw

people dismiss as cliche. I was like, oh, I have a little of that. I should get rid of that. Like a lot of my editing processes in standards and methods and like even the story structure of just for us, it's structured sort of like a multi-camera sitcom because it was coming out of a multi-camera sitcom room. And the characters in Just for us are sort of done in a more of a single camera style because I had just come out of a single camera room

when I started redeveloping the show. Wow. So, like, those subtle differences, like, the more places you can put yourself where, like, you learn something, and I hate that this sounds, like, a nice, like, sweet thing, the more places you can go where you're, like, stealing techniques.

Yeah. Or, like, picking stuff up from other smart people. Yeah. And, like, selecting for yourself, like, like, goods at a supermarket, what you want from other people's, like, tastes and skill set, the better off you'll be. That's wonderful.

I love that. There's a blend of other people's tastes, you know. Well, sure, but I also think it's a really good reminder to make sure you're in rooms with people that are smarter than you. Oh, my God. This is my number one pet peeve. When you say, like, I'm not quite as sure about, like, I'm not quite sure about my concern about like what are what our environments are becoming has less to do with entitlement

even though I do think it is a problem and much more to do with anxiety around opinions that aren't ours and intellects that aren't ours that that are intellects that are that are not the same exact line that we are yeah and so I am nervous very very nervous about I'm very very nervous about like the

like people's I sometimes notice people in rooms feeling so threatened by those that are smarter than them that they forgot to they forget to take advantage of those people yeah like literally I will not I don't know that I

could date someone who isn't smarter than me. I don't know. Everyone I've ever dated has been smarter than me. Everyone I've ever worked with in a serious way has been smarter than me. Everyone I've ever entrusted my, like, why would I entrust myself or why would I put someone in my path who isn't more intelligent than me? And I think people out of fear are seeking out lesser intellects that share their opinions. So like Ben and I fight all the time. Like whenever we've collaborated on something, we argue. We argue and argue and argue. And like, because Benj feels like I'm smarter than he is and that's not true and I know that Benj is smarter than I am and he's and but like yeah you need every relationship is like a romantic one you need to think

they're the lucky person in it and sometimes I think people seek out folks that they wouldn't feel lucky to be around it's like a crazy crazy experience and now for our sponsors the requirement for critical thinking is being willing to analyze a bunch of possibilities and deduce truth or the most equitable outcome or, you know, fill in the blank in any way you want to. And it reminds me of the last time you and Benj and I were together. We were in a, you know, big room of folks trying to make sure that the world doesn't become like one giant fascist hellhole. And as we were talking about certain things that worked, we were also pushing back on each other

about the things that don't. And it was really important to me at one point I was making a point and you jumped in to say, yeah, but they will say, and you filled in that blank, and I want more of that. I want more of,

okay, but what about this? Smart point. Let's also solve for that. Let's figure out how, you know, if we include this bucket of people, let's make the bucket of people who think the point you just made is true. Let's make sure we're figuring out

how to communicate with them and invite them to the table also. It's the way we build bridges. It's the way policy has to work. You have to take care of the most people possible at all times. Some people want to do that and some people don't want to do the work. And I find that to be so important and to realize that when we're able to kind of go tete-a-tete, it's not a fight. It's a spirited debate.

And I miss that. And I think some of why we miss it is not just that we're being siloed into groups of people we only agree with. But as you see this sort of like base level of fighting, we're missing language, we're missing nuance, we're missing importance. I mean, even the fact that when you've talked about the special, obviously you as a young Jewish man going to a meeting of white nationalists, we know we're going to touch on anti-Semitism. But you talk about how the through line of that show for you. is actually about assimilation, not just anti-Semitism. It is a really important linguistic distinction. Why do you feel like it's so important to make a distinction like that for people?

Well, I'd rather have conversations about identity without considering victimhood. I will say that until very recently, it was somewhat of an anti-Semitism. a minimalist. I think there are real instances of anti-Semitism and there are some where people are like, I found a swastika on my crossword puzzle and I'm like, that's not real. But I've always thought that like

assimilation is about how you see yourself fitting into the world and prejudice is about how others see you fitting into the world. And one is very much within your control or more in your control and others are less so. And the two are obviously linked

right? Like perception is a big part of both of those things. In response to that perception, it's a big part of both those things. But like, you know, the cost of fitting in to me has always been more interesting than victimhood. I find victimhood very boring. And I find people claiming oppression to be non-specific in some senses. Like, obviously, the people who are, you know, we can all think of, like, there are instances where people are genuinely oppressed, and then there are people who claim it based on, like, Donald Trump sometimes is like, I'm the most persecuted man in the world, and you're like, buddy, you're a billionaire. You're a billionaire. You're a billionaire monster. Shut up. Like, you're a billionaire who's gotten

away with crime for like 50 years. You're finally being held accountable. Shut the fuck up. He's like, oh, yes, there's no one who's more persecuted than me. And you're like, and then sometimes people who are big fans of that guy are like, we're persecuted too. And you're like, you're not persecuted, you're fine. Like, no one's coming for you, buddy. No. And so because of that, victimhood is a currency feels very boring to me.

There's a difference between that and redressing a grievance or shifting a balance. Sure. But like assimilation is something that, to me, let me more. deeply consider my own identity like what if I thought also it's more interesting

as a premise what if a Jew walked into a meeting of people that dislike him and just sort of took it for granted that they disliked him

and never really and never found that to be revelatory what would be the more interesting questions you could ask right like like instead of

sometimes I watch various like Instagram clips where people interview like dumb racists as a sort of gotcha and the point of the clip to be is to be like

this person is a racist or this person is very very you know like I'm thinking of a specific person in here but like their work is good and I don't want to besmirch to work but like the point oftentimes for comedy for really good comedy is this person is bad the person I'm interviewing is bad and sometimes I think think, yes, I know that person is someone we would all consider bad. Can you tell me one

interesting thing about them? Because we might be able to get it like a greater truth there. So I'm always like, you know, I'm more interested in the stuff that comes underneath than the stuff that's up there on the top, I guess. Being willing to have such nuanced conversation and to think so critically and, you know, to have put yourself in the position you put yourself in to write the show in the first place. Is it interesting to hold that as your sort of container, the sort of questions you like to ask, and then to be met with over the years,

so many people in an audience who will be inspired, but also potentially triggered by the subject matter of your show. Like, you get so much feedback afterwards. How has it been for you? Has it been strange? Has it been amazing? Is there impactful feedback? you want to share about, or are you like, please, God, I don't want to talk about it anymore?

I know, no, I'm happy to talk about, like, organic feedback. I mean, the feedback that was used to me was, like, people who didn't understand things, or people would go, how could you go to that meeting, eventually made me right the end of the show, which is, like, here's why it went. Like, open yourself up to feedback, you get what audiences actually are curious about. So I get a lot of stuff that audiences are curious about. Also, you know, it was really interesting. Sometimes I would give an answer,

I would answer the question in the show that I've been asked at the slide. And then I go, but isn't it better if they discuss it, actually? You know it better if they discuss my intention than get the answer? So, like, I think I learned a really valuable lesson about certain things, which is if you give people narrative closure, but don't give people, if you give people like narrative closure but don't give people

like ultimate closure then they'll discuss it. Right? Like if you don't if you if you make a sorry to be more specific about that this is a craft thing I guess if you talk about an issue that's tangentially geopolitical like whiteness or

identity or you know and then touch on and then tell a story that touches on those things but doesn't give an audience entirely an opinion on the issue writ large, then the audience will discuss that opinion when they leave. I love that. They've been conversant with it, but you haven't completed the loop.

And so some of the smarter critics around the show or some of the smarter observers around the show would take the story at face value, and some of the ones who are a little more prescribed would be like, well, he never takes a position on X, Y, Z. because the truth is it's actually quite boring to be told

and an audience should do work when they're watching the show and they should have work when they leave but they should also feel satiated and so it's like the essence of live performance for me I love that that's such a good nugget see that's something everyone at home gets to steal

and clearly it works as a device I mean I feel like every single person I know and admire in our entire industry came to see your show and well no seriously and I loved it I was just like

that's my friend and like I love this for him you know it's sort of like when you feel like you find a new band obviously if they have a record out they're doing great but like before they've popped and become like the biggest band in the world and then you know they become the biggest band and you're like I was there early

like I feel a little bit of that sort of pride about your show you were there down town. I sure fucking was and I loved every minute of it. And then to see like Billy Crystal and Steve Martin, my literal idol and like Jerry Seinfeld come to your show and then you wind up doing a movie with him with Jerry like you're, you know, for the fans at home. Alex is in on Frosted on Netflix. Like what it's who cares? It's so you did a project with Seinfeld. Like was it a wild experience to have those people show up and tell you like I loved this was was the, was the Was the little boy in you just totally geeked?

A thousand percent. And also... I loved that. You know, it made me realize, though, that it's a special thing. You don't, like, not all my work is warmly received. I've done other stuff that's not been as... I'm very lucky. I've never been savaged, you know?

I've never gotten less than a three-star review. I'm sure it will come with my next thing. But, like, I've never, but, you know, I've done some work that people were like, oh, okay, it's good for you, buddy. That's pretty good. But, like, but yeah, it's a joy. It's just like, and to have your, you know, you say make art for other people. I make art for my worst critics, my family, myself, two friends, one of whom is no longer alive,

and the people that made me want to do this. And so, genuinely, sometimes I think, what would sign? think if he saw this joke? What would Maria Bamford think if she saw this joke? What would Sarah Sutherman think if she saw this joke? What would Joan Rivers or Richard Pryor or mom's name? Or, you know, so-and-so, how would they feel if they saw this joke? And so by doing that, you set for yourself a high standard. And when they come see the show, some of you, like, I got a message from Albert Brooks and he enjoyed the special, and there's no one I respect more than Albert Brooks. Like, you ever met the man, I don't know him, his wife,

Kimberly's a brilliant artist, a follower on Instagram, and so got a message from Kimberly. And, like, I cried. Like, it is things for your peers and your betters. It really is, it's special. I love that. Well, being in this position where you're able to reflect on this so beautifully, and you're obviously ideating on some future projects, one of which I'm very excited about, but no, we can't talk about.

Another of which we did together, and we can't quite talk about it, but hint, hint, it might be that trivia mention I made earlier. How do you feel about what comes next? What, as you sit here, you know, in the middle of the summer in New York, looking back and looking forward, what feels like your work in progress? Is it professional? Is it a personal? Is it a mix?

It's a mix. Like, I've got a – also, I might want to stop for a little while soon. If I want to, like, take a break. It's been – I've been doing this show for a long time just for us. I've been talking about it for a long time. Maybe nice to, like, delineate a chapter. I'm something coming up that'll be busy. I'm busy.

I'm very busy. But, like, it won't always be that way. I'll always have to, there might be times in my life have to jumpstart things or stop things. But, like, you know, for now I'm happy with where I am. I know that sounds crazy. It sounds nuts. And I can't even believe I'm saying it. And it's also not true, right?

Like, it's also not true. I want to do everything. But, like, you know, I drove my show into. the wheels fell off and yeah uh i stopped just before then i stopped 11 months after adam died because that was the right amount of time that's how long do you say cottage for so that's how long i did my show but um but like my next thing i'm i just want to keep working like i really love to work and my show is up for emmys and hopefully it gets nominated for things and yes uh hopefully people consider it for such but like it's a um

yeah i don't know i'm just writing i'm doing some acting i'm doing some like more live stuff i will always be a comedian i'll never stop doing comedy so like yeah i'm just like a mixture and at the same time it would be nice to like calm down a little bit so i can maybe like grab myself and start thinking about a family or something so yeah yeah yeah wait can we can we tell the internet a little bit about that as an asterisk Alex Edelman is single what are you looking for oh my god you might get a date out of this the people who listen to this podcast are very smart so like what if we find you like a smart cutie Nora afron is who I'm looking for that's what I'm looking for I know she's dead but I want like genius funny Jew weirdo and and who's gorgeous and I don't need all of those things

who has like some boss energy in her yeah I get that boss you know about my like you know everything you know everything i do i do but you know i'm like let's let's put a little pixie dust out there why not i joke i mean i this is working purpose dates we do it all here oh my god please don't make this the social post i won't socially post it but people who get to the end of the episode will know and maybe they'll start dming you we'll see what happens i'd like to have a follow up genius gorgeous weirdos that's my i'm looking for a genius gorgeous weirdos that's my i'm looking for a genius gorgeous weirdo but that's my uh love it like i've always i've only ever dated genius gorgeous weirdos and so you know what a compliment if you've been on a date with alice edelman

feel good about yourself you're a genius gorgeous weirdo truly i've not dated any any anyone who isn't one of those things have they always been easy no but you know well we're probably not easy either we're neurotic and wild and obsessed with facts so here we go we're nightmares who struggle to be present. So that's the thing for me. And we're magical little glitter ponies too. Sure. Well, I love you. Thank you for coming on today. Oh my God. Are you kidding? I love your ass. This is fantastic. This is an IHeart podcast.