Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Alyson Stoner

Episode Date: August 13, 2025

Alyson Stoner appeared in over 200 films, TV shows and tours, leaving an indelible mark on pop culture long before they were old enough to drive. But being a child star is not for the faint of heart!In this candid conversation with Sophia, Alyson opens up about their tumultuous childhood in Hollywood, sharing first-hand knowledge of exploitation and offering constructive insights on how to fix the broken system.Alyson's memoir, "Semi-Well-Adjusted Despite Literally Everything" is out now.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hello, whips, Marties. Oh, my goodness, do we have a brilliant guest on the show today. This is a person whose story has inspired me for so long, both in my interactions with them, and also in the way they impact the world. And in the way they have been impacting the world for so many years now, today we are joined by Alison Stoner.

They are an entertainer author and the founder and CEO of Movement Genius, a mental health company that is providing therapist-led content to improve well-being for all people. And Allison knows how important that is. During their childhood, they were in over 200 films, TV shows, and tours, everything from Camp Rock to Phineas and Ferb to step up, cheaper by the dozen, and very iconic music videos you probably know them from with Missy Elliott

and Eminem. As the writer and host of the award-winning Dear Hollywood podcast, Stoner has been advocating for industry and policy reform that centers the safety and protection of children in both traditional and digital media. Allison now holds multiple certifications across the mental health space, and has led programming for the UN, the World Health Organization, LGBTQIA centers, and leading universities. And now they are releasing their incredible memoir, semi-well adjusted, despite literally everything, into the world. It is such a profoundly powerful book, and it really pulls back the curtain so that we can all have

conversations that we need to have. And somehow Allison has managed to make this book bold, entertaining, warm, and galvanizing all at once. It's really a beacon for reform and a roadmap to healing. And I'm really excited to talk with Allison about this whole journey today. Let's dive in. Do you have Auburn hair now? Is that new? I did it like a year ago, but, you know, what is time? What do we know about anything anymore? The world is crazy.

Absolutely. In fact, as we dive into this, can you share a few words about where you're located mentally and emotionally? Oh, gosh. So I know kind of where we are in the context of conversation, if you feel comfortable. You sweet soul. You know, it's interesting. It's like when people ask, how are you lately?

I'm like, well, in the four walls of my home, I'm so happy and embodied and elated to like finally be in a genuinely good place in my life and self. And then the world has never been worse, and it's never been less safe for people like us in the world. And, you know, we like, I don't know, might be entering into World War III, like, literally. So it's like, it's kind of like whiplash all the time is how I feel. Okay. How do you feel? Thank you for helping me understand where you are. because very similarly, I am grateful to be experiencing stability and groundedness

in my intimate relationships in a way that is so healing. And yet, of course, you walk outside, you open your phone, you just look at your to-do list. And it is, I can relate to the sense of whiplash. and I actually was just thinking about how I can feel myself slowly on the cusp of becoming a bit more desensitized. And that's usually a signal for me that I'm either trying to accomplish too much and wear too many hats and play too many roles in all of the different domains of life. Or I'm recognizing a very natural and normal response to, overwhelming amounts of information, but I've just been reflecting this morning specifically on how the more desensitized I or we become, the easier it is to start dehumanizing each other and

ourselves and how that is in some ways precisely what is designed to happen right now and therefore, like, we have to vow to not burn out. We have to vow to retain empathy. I'm really happy to see you. Yeah, it's nice to see you. It's been a minute. I know. It's so crazy. It's like the pandemic sort of made me feel like a hundred years had gone by and also only a minute with everyone I haven't seen in a while. It's like such a weird, melty sense of time. But it's been really nice just to like watch you doing your thing and get to be one of your like cheerleaders in the world. It's fun. Likewise. And I do remember many years ago when I first came out, you were one of the few people in the public guy who just were so kind and responsive and affirming. I don't know if you were already sort of going through your own self-examination or if that's something that came later upon meeting someone.

But, you know, I thought it was beautiful, a full circle moment when I saw, you can. come out. And I was like, oh my gosh, now I get to celebrate you in this dimension of you are that maybe, you know, others haven't gotten a chance to know yet. Oh, thank you. We'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors. As a person who's lucky enough to know you in the world, to know that you've been circling these themes about work and childhood and self-discovery and being able to be your full self turned into this full excavation, this full book? I began outlining a manuscript. I didn't know what book it would become and analyzing research specifically across media culture and

psychology and child development and neurobiology. And that was just to ensure that as I was writing and reflecting, my perspective was informed by a variety of fields. It was never about needing an audience to validate what happened as much as, hey, I think you all deserve to know more of the story that you're never told in all of these other documentaries and memoirs. And so I had a literary agent who reached out. They had just added someone to the team and the new person resurfaced the book proposal that I had written years ago and said, I think there's something here. And it corresponded to my peer, Jeanette, releasing her book. I'm glad my mom died. And Jeanette is also, we grew up, we had the same managers. We, you know,

Disney Nickelodeon, the whole spiel. And so when she resurfaced it, I kind of went, okay, I'll take the next step to write the sample chapter, but no commitments. And eventually, you know, we found an editor, a publisher, and the team, and I said, all right, I guess I'm really doing this. I had to start going through the legal review of the manuscript and validate fact check. Did this really happen? Can someone else corroborate this experience? And suddenly, I had an all-new story of the story I thought I was clear about. And yet, when some of the these new details emerged. When I tell you, it was like putting puzzle pieces, very painful, but puzzle pieces together and finally seeing the whole image of my life cohesively.

Wow. This book not only became, you know, this longstanding desire to share these intimate details and paint, you know, the landscape of the industry in a very fresh and time. timely way, but also it's now this tool that has forever changed the course of my life, because I found out this information that I never knew that helped everything make more sense. So it's very living and active. It feels more like a living document, and so I'm a little nervous that it's permanently in ink in one form. But that is what it is. And thankfully, that's why I called it semi well adjusted and not well

adjusted. So we can make room. Oh, no, I love it. And I think it's beautiful. And I, I know that it's not, it's so obviously not easy, you know, to go through these things to excavate your history. But I do wonder, I think when you are a truth teller and there is a truth, you haven't been able to tell, it will be like an itch you can't scratch. Do you feel like something has finally been able to move through you and out of you now that it's all on paper, even though it must be scary? Yes, and I am so nervous that I chose to do this in public memoir form because, first of all, trying to be honest with yourself is a chess game, because, you know, Because you can think you're being honest, and yet we're still wearing masks that could be,

you know, biases or fears or defense mechanisms. And so you have to kind of poke and prod to get underneath your initial story of how things worked. And my, I brought on a writing supervisor to help with this because she would see the initial way that I connected dots A and B and go, I don't know. I think there's something missing in between here. What else is there in this story? And so also the way you hold your memories that you're revisiting shifts what takeaways you'll derive. For example, if I'm, you know, cradling this memory of a family event through, you know, and my arms are fearful. I'm holding it in fear. then the takeaways are going to be informed by a fearful lens of the world or, you know, fearful quality. And if I go back and revisit the exact same memory through, you know, holding it in love, holding it in possibility. It's going to become a different story. And so humans being meaning making machines, I think that was a part of the challenge, was realizing now I have to actually

make a lot of decisions about what story I'm going to tell, what themes I'm going to relay. And I actually have to choose a perspective. I can't be in my compliant kid actor mode of just pleasing the director's vision and trying to make everyone see all sides because I'm the peacekeeper of the family, et cetera. So honesty, I committed to honesty. And something I realized is that, obviously, the word truth is like, I would love for this to mean something objective and absolute, but of course it's going to be shaped, you know, by my subjective experience. But for the sake of the sentence, truth is not always polite. love is not always polite but they can still be delivered with dignity and compassion so while I'm sharing things that are very difficult to say I at least tried to have that compassionate

compass but I will say there are things in there that I don't you know I go through waves of Am I going to regret, am I going to regret saying all of this? But at the same time, creatively and from like a, you know, an impact standpoint, these things, these need, they needed to come out. They need to be said. And it's for a greater purpose of reimagining the industry and society so that we take care of kids better. We understand our own healing journeys better. but wow like why did I sign up for this I wish it on no one and yet I wish the liberation on the other

side for everyone yeah yeah well I think it requires an immense amount of courage to tell the truth let alone to tell the truth in public and then to also hold space for the fact that many people can be experiencing the same thing in a different way at the same time. It's complex. And I think sometimes when you are a person who leans into complexity and nuance for the world,

eventually you have to give yourself space to be those things too. And it feels like that's what you're doing with this book. I mean, it's so interesting to me. me even the fact that in all the years we've known each other so much of what we've talked about are our young experiences you know from you know post collegiate age career to your childhood career

and normally when people come on the podcast I love to ask them about their childhoods you know if they got to sit down with their eight-year-old self would they see the person they are today in that child um and i i guess i wonder for you because so much of your life was your young career you know your your young life was encapsulated documented yes yes in ways that most people's are not so i guess i i wonder do you do you even have pre-work memory? Or is your whole childhood in the swirl of, you know, sets and music and dance class and acting and all of it? My body, of course, has memory of many experiences before performing at three and working professionally at six. And I know this when I return to

Toledo, Ohio, where I'm from originally. my entire nervous system relaxes, and I usually fall asleep. You know, now when I visit my dad in his spare room, I'll sleep for 12 to 14 hours after months and months of insomnia. And I'm so grateful that my body associates visiting, you know, my dad and family in Ohio with safety so much that I can feel. Boom, come undone. Collapse even.

And, you know, psychologically, yes, there are a lot of different ways that working in the industry shaped my development. I mean, fundamentally, it altered every facet of my being from education to socialization to being commodified as a product. And all of this is discussed as you see how these stories unfold in the book. And yet, to your point, I'm actually really excited to have this book bring everyone up to speed on the fact that 25 plus years later, I am an adult who has been in, you know, years of therapy now and holds several certifications in the mental health field. Right. who is now moving forward in, you know, hopefully dynamic and expansive and expressive ways where I'm not glued to my past, if and when necessary, it serves a purpose to, you know, open doors to be in rooms where I can better serve people who are in the same position I was in. but I'm also finally experiencing some freedom from the early stories that drove my sense of identity.

And I do think if I were to extrapolate this to what's happening societally, I've been reflecting a bit on just how difficult and challenging it is for someone to unpack perhaps beliefs that we were kind of collectively indoctrinated into or we were. inherited from family or just beliefs we received from media wherever to really unpack those and and shift it requires you know I think about a house and if the house has the structure and it looks that certain way and you're going to deconstruct that house and it's just going to be this you know down to its foundation maybe you're even have to crack the foundation well suddenly you don't have any structure to hold you up anymore. Who are you, if not these things? And that kind of uncertainty can be so, so stressful and, you know,

can lead to crisis for some of us. So I've been thinking about the ways that all of us who are trying to heal right now and trying to move forward also have to have a lot of patience. and compassion and strategy for coping with the required uncertainty of deconstructing what wants to find you and leaving room to sit in new classrooms and hopefully not get stuck in any new classroom just to say, cool, I jumped ship, now I'm going to make this my story. But to actually learn how to live in that gray area, to live in that gray area, to live in that flexible state of thought and being where we can really examine things with more openness.

I don't know if any of that makes sense, but I've been reflecting on that because, yes, of course, people know me as the little girl in the Miss Elliott video. And I'm like, yeah, that was 20 plus years ago. And now I don't know if y'all are still talking about what you were doing at nine years old, but I'm ready to move on as well. Yeah. We'll be back in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors. Well, and that's something that's so interesting, you know,

because I would imagine, especially when you chose to start being honest about the underbelly of environments where children are being put to work and where children are being put to work sometimes for 80 hours a week. I think it must have rattled a lot of people because they were like, but look how cool your life is. You're on Nickelodeon. You're on Disney. You're dancing in these music videos. Like, you're getting everything you've ever wanted. And to your point about when your identity shifts, how do you feel like you even began to make sense of, I'm supposed to be so happy and I'm not, how do I talk about this with people? How do I share this with people? How do you think

you begin to even share that with yourself? Well, I wasn't even asking any of those questions or feeling the resistance or dissonance because I was indoctrinated into that sense of identity. So, yeah, so I didn't actually have an alternative for really until 18 when my my health collapsed and it forced me to slow down long enough to say, wait a second, if I'm doing something that's going to lead to, you know, early death, I was experiencing what's considered a fatal illness being treated for a number of eating disorders. Then, like, I need to re-evaluate, even if no one else around me is telling me to do so. Even if people are actually kind of encouraging me and reinforcing me to,

to follow these patterns that are and behaviors that are actually harmful for my health. But I do want to take a step back. You mentioned something about the perception of child stars. And I do think it's really important to clarify a few things. First, child stardom is such a bizarre and unique cultural phenomenon. And it does say a lot about our society and our values and all these myths that shape us that we can analyze. But for now, typically, when we think about child stars, they're represented quite poorly in the media, usually as, you know, rich, entitled, young performers who are behaving recklessly, who are experiencing mental breakdown seemingly, quote, unquote, out of nowhere. when in reality there is this entire ecosystem in the industry that often is exploiting the child and hiding that harm and then portraying this lifestyle of, you know, fame.

And so what you're seeing as the general public is this facade. Meanwhile, the child is potentially facing quite detrimental, maybe even abusive. treatment and experiences. So then when you see these young stars start to show signs of mental illness or quote unquote misbehavior, we as a society, as we do with, you know, most things tend to view it as an individual isolated problem. What's wrong with them? But as we're seeing, if these exact same stories are happening repeatedly for more than a

century, then it's time we need to look beyond the surface. So that's where, you know, I call this examination the toddler to train wreck pipeline of young performers. Why are they, you know, in these documentaries and memoirs talking about the same pattern of drug addiction and psychiatric hospitalization and decimated fortunes and sexual trauma and incarceration and even in some cases for my peers and maybe some folks you know, suicide. And why do these elements define the lives and deaths of child performers? And so I didn't have to unpack any of this until my body shut down because effectively the stories that drove it being okay for a young kid to be this quote unquote exceptional talent who can work 80 hours a week because they're so

mature for their age and look they're smiling so they must be okay all of this was upheld um until my body literally screamed at me and said no this is not how it is um and I I I was terrified of any alternative possibility at that point because who was I outside of the industry? That's literally all I knew. I didn't even have life skills. Like I was underdeveloped in so many, you know, quote unquote, typical ways for children and teens. And I didn't even go to regular school. You know, I really was, I felt stuck.

and scared. It's a very surreal world, I think, to let people in on. And, you know, when you talk about the toddler to train wreck pipeline, I loved the essay you wrote about it when you talked about it as like an industrial complex because it is. It puts people in and it turns them through something and it's part of the reason they, so many come out on the other side, as you said, affected by all of the same quote-unquote afflictions. I think about it even for us as adults in this industry. You know, I will give people really honest answers about certain things that can happen at work. And sometimes I met with this feedback, like, can't you just be a little cheerier? And I'm like, no, I want to be honest. This is, you know, it's not what you think it is from the outside.

and in the in the um op-ed that you penned about it you you talked about understanding now from the perspective of an adult what a crazy thing it is to be going through even the audition process as a kid and you and you compared these two stories you were meant to tell in the same day one of them was that you know this child was kidnapped and assaulted and the scene required screaming and not just from you, but you had to listen to it with all these other kids going into this audition. And then you were supposed to get in the car and, like, go audition to be a princess for a toy commercial. And it was so happy and gorgeous. And you were six years old. And it's like, nobody talks to us about how to deal with that stuff as adults in the industry.

I know for a fact nobody was talking to about how to deal with it at six. Right. But with the training that you've chosen to go through, the way that you have let yourself pursue your curiosity and identity outside of being a performer, you know, being a good girl who shows up and does her work, but actually following your own personal curiosity to where it leads you and it has led you into this mental health space. When you look back at something like that when you think about the story you penned prior to the book you know how how do you kind of make sense of it for you and then as an advocate how do you see there being another option for others who do want to tell stories but who aren't really given any kind of roadmap about how to

take care of their mental health while being required to embody stuff like this well this is my favorite part because now we're talking about solutions if we're talking about possibilities we're talking about things that can work for entertainers but also people working across any industry who you know our minds and bodies can only tolerate a certain amount of stress and stimulation before we leave what some refer to as our window of tolerance you know and within our window we can experience ease a sense of safety access to critical thinking, creative problem solving. We feel like our quote unquote authentic self.

And then, of course, as stressors occur, we might dip high or above or below our window of tolerance. And the hope is, of course, that after these temporary stressful experiences, we'll close that loop, we'll return to our range where things are all right. But for a lot of us, these are, that doesn't sound like a realistic expectation when you're overloaded with micro and macro stressors every single day. And so when I think about that for young people, and I know getting into the industry, as you mentioned, there was no manual, no onboarding, preventative strategies, no preparation for what you're getting into, no tools and techniques to get into character. out of character when the six-year-old's brain still neurobiologically cannot differentiate between fantasy and reality. Like, yeah, this is a recipe for all of us to be on the struggle bus. The good news is, or the opportunity that we have, is this kind of mind-body education

and learning which tools you need in which moments of the day to help. cope and move through stress, these are available. And they don't have to be behind a super expensive paywall. That's why, you know, when I founded my mental health company, movement genius, we specifically thought, what is the most accessible, affordable, casual way for people to get access to stress relief techniques, mental and emotional health tools? You know, think about it kind of like headspace and calm. but for a much broader variety of strategies and tools to improve your well-being.

So it's not just meditation. It's also like bilateral tapping and progressive muscle relaxation. And they're guided, led by therapists, so you don't have to be the expert until you start to realize, oh, I am building an awareness of how my system operates and what to do to manage the day. So looking back, I was always this kid who was deeply researching and trying to understand that was maybe in some ways my coping strategy. I needed to know exactly why this was happening because things, you know, did not make sense until I knew everything about it from every angle. And so now, flash forward, we designed, actually this is my most excited, it's the most exciting aspect of the conversation to me, because my intention is to contribute to solutions at every level of the issue. So individually, we designed artist well-being essentials, which is, to my knowledge, the first of its kind toolkit where young people, performers and their families can not only receive some psychoeducation like foundational learning

on the mind-body connection, but they also get access to these artist-specific performance-related activities and tools that, as I mentioned, help them get into a knot-of-character or manage stage fright, manage rejection, you know, body image resources. And so that's like a first line of prevention that doesn't exist and should have existed many years ago. Yes. And then the next step is, okay, well, now we have to start helping the adults working with minors understand what it means to have a minor on set. And we're not just talking like, hey, watch your language.

Things like, did you know that some of these young children don't realize that when you as the audio engineer are placing a mic pack directly on their body, they've never learned anything about bodily autonomy or consent. And if we don't help them understand that it's okay to say, hey, I'd rather my guardian be here when you do it, which they should be anyway, or like, hey, I can actually place this here myself. Like, please don't touch me. That that's okay and healthy and normal and that you can collaborate together in new ways. Instead of just saying, this little kid is sort of a prop. an ornament and we can do whatever we need to do with them, around them, to them, to get

what we need done, including directors, like, you know, coercing a child into a really dark state of mind just to make sure they get, you know, the most epic emotional reaction on camera. So we can brief adults and provide some simple best practices, training, preparation. Then, not just thinking about the kids, but the industry. ecosystem, I'm excited that I'm becoming a mental health coordinator for productions and sets. So similar to intimacy coordination, which is kind of like a new, becoming more standardized, thankfully, you know, if someone has a scene that involves intimacy, that can be, you know, sexual, it could be some kind of nudity.

It could also be, you know, depictions of violence or like it's not always, you know, flowery, and beautiful. With mental health coordination, we can analyze the script and consult on how you're depicting mental illness to make sure that all of our loved ones who live with schizophrenia or with other mental illness aren't seeing harmful stereotypes

that are inaccurate, portrayed broadly to society, but we can also be on set to help support cast and crew. We can also help support editors who are watching 16 hours of footage back to back in dark rooms and having to pick, you know, if it's a horror film between this gruesome shot and this gruesome shot, that takes a toll. And then zooming out even further, federal policy, I'm super excited. I'm now, you know, I feel like I'm following your footsteps in a way and seeing this, you know, this aspect of civic engagement and legislative reform and

advocacy and how that's a necessary part. So we're, you know, working on passing some bills to better protect children across media spaces, traditional and digital. And then the largest aspect of this is our social conversations about this. I think we are ready to graduate beyond these just, like, sensationalized memoirs of, oh my gosh, what happened to them? and to actually start reckoning with the systems, the way we're doing with everything else. Like, we want to know.

We want to talk about this. And in the book, why, you know, I called it semi-well-adjusted partially is because what does it even mean to be well-adjusted if the society is dysfunctional? Right. Like, do you want, do we want, is this what, what are we trying to acclimate to? We, no, we need some transformation in every space. So there are solutions, and it is happening, and there is hope, I promise. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible.

It's thrilling to know that it's happening, and it's really exciting to witness you take your experiences and turn. them and to change for other people. But I really think part of what's powerful about the stories you are telling right now and the advocacy for kids is that in the way that our society really doesn't like women and wants to tell adult women in this industry that it's not that bad. They have some relative privilege. Nobody can say that to a kid. it's so much harder to tell a lie about a child in this world than it is to perpetuate lies about women and so i as an observer feel really hopeful when you talk about solutions and you talk about hope i feel hopeful that once the charade is exposed as a charade that it it

might be possible to change it for everybody start with the kids and work your way out you know i mean don't give away my playbook too obviously yes if we can help people understand the most vulnerable person on set the child is experiencing these things and we can measurably report the outcomes of these experiences now over a century, then yes, this this stands the chance of opening minds to protocols that, you know, affect everyone. I think about even all I'm learning in the digital space with sharing the concept of posting, you know, images and clips of your loved ones and young ones online. And I think for the most part, adults, are sharing out of love and out of pride and out of, you know, a deep desire to connect with

other people in new ways online. And yet similarly to the industry where we weren't given a manual and we didn't know the risks. In digital spaces, we're not educated collectively on what that digital footprint for your young one can mean for their future for better and worse and privacy issues, data issues, identity theft, all of these different ways that it could affect their future educational pathways and employment. And it was just seemingly a very harmless, adorable video of them in their room, playing with a toy, you know. And so I speak about this because this isn't at all a blame game. It's more like, y'all, you know, You deserve, we deserve, we all need to skill up in this area.

Because I believe, actually, that the more we know, the more it will become so obvious that you'll naturally start making some shifts because we simply didn't know better before. Well, when you think about it with any major societal shift, I mean, think about the invention of the seatbelt. The idea that people ever drove around in cars at high speeds with no seatbelts is insane to us. But when this was becoming, you know, a federally mandated rule, there were states where people were saying, you have no right to tell me what to do with my body and my car. Right. And, you know, now we think of just how crazy it is that you would put yourself at risk for no reason. And so I think to your point, it's really important to understand that this feels like our life, but it's also so relatively new.

You know, when the first silent film came out, I think it was like 1910 or 1912 or something. There's a story about how there was a shot. The camera was, you know, on the train track and the trains barreling toward the camera. And people got up and ran out of the theater because they thought they were going to get hit by a shot. train. People did not know that the image they were looking at was not in their physical space. No one had experience with the moving pictures yet. Wow. And so when you think about the fact that like some of our grandparents were born around that time and now we're dealing with, you know, a physical and a digital world. And as you said, identity theft and deep fakes and all these insane things that can

be created by technology, it's so new. We don't really know what we're doing yet. Yes. And in the spirit, I got to put a lot of things in air quotes these days, the spirit of innovation, we often are not pausing long enough to take inventory of the impact of making these decisions. And obviously we see that and how extractive we are toward the planet and to people and, you know, yes. But you mentioned something about deep fakes. I don't know if you've spoken a lot about this already, but something I just recently learned was that when it comes to intimate deep fakes, there isn't a blanket federal law preventing intimate deep fakes and AI deep fakes from being created.

And now a word from our sponsors. You know, when you talk about them and you talk about the lack of federal law, so my best friend Nia and I actually served as two executive producers on a documentary called Another Body. And it really does an incredible job. The filmmakers did a beautiful job walking you through the experience of this kind of abuse of a young woman. And one of the things that startled me so much as we've been, you know, campaigning around the U.S. and the filmmaking team also in the EU to stop some of this is the flippancy with which it's treated when 98.8% of all victims of deep fake abuse are

women and girls. Yes. And when you analyze societies that are sick around the world, world, one of the first signs of a backsliding democracy or the dissolution of a healthy society is the increased legislating against the rights of women, the increased abuse of women, the increases in violence against women. And this is violence against women. And yes, also against some men and boys, which is terrible, undoubtedly. One is not, I'm saying worse than the other, but women suffer first. It is a sign of sickness. And one of the things that really took my breath away

was learning in the year that they were making the film in 2023, that there were about just under 450,000 of these images they could trace on the internet. And by 2024, there were $4.2 billion. Yes. So it is a, it is a situation. and it is at risk of being a runaway train. And it is another one of these things when we think about industries that don't take human safety and wellness seriously. We have a lot of work to do

in these tech spaces there. And I do think it's deeply connected to the kind of work you're talking about doing in the entertainment industry, whether it's influencing or television or films, social media and I really think about how I know it can feel overwhelming and I can imagine some of the folks at home being like holy shit like this is scary I feel like I am going to tune out I'm going to desensitize a bit and something that really brings it back to right here front and center me and you for me is a a moment in your own history that you mentioned earlier because when you turned 18 When you actually had your own legal agency, you were also suffering from, as you said, an assortment of eating disorders.

And I know you had checked yourself into a hospital. You've spoken about this really beautifully. You talk about it in your story. And that your team still wanted you to be auditioning when you were clearly so sick. But people were profiting off of you sick. so they didn't necessarily want to prioritize your wellness. It's a painful story for you. It's a painful story as a person who cares about you to hear.

And I think about how it's so representative of the way so many people get treated. You know, you're working for the machine, so the machine's just going to keep working you. How did you know you needed help in that moment? How did you choose to help yourself? Because I wonder if any of those personal aha moments in time during that period might really resonate for somebody who's wondering how to help themselves. I will admit that my decision to get help initially was only so that I could say, stay on the hamster wheel and win the race. It hadn't yet clicked that maybe I didn't need to be on that wheel at all,

or that the wheel was sort of a false game to be playing, a false race to be running. However, I do think that deep, deep, deep, deep within, there was some sense of dissonance between having a certain set of values when I was not in front of anyone performing, when I was not on the job clocking in and out, but I was just alone, that kind of spiritual center core, however you would define it, where those values felt like they could not safely be integrated into the rest of my life because they would ruffle feathers, they would burn bridges, they would disrupt the flow of production. And so I thought, well, I guess we just all have to play dress up and wear a costume whenever we go outside. And then at home is where

we just get to be this more whole sense of self. And something maybe subconsciously clicked where, you know, perhaps I saw someone else who seemed to be living out their fullness in public. But I've recognized that I actually have to learn how to be in this kind of integrity in every room I walk into. And it is going to have a different impact on people than I'm accustomed to. Because, yeah, if you're socialized as a person who you feel like you need to be compliant, then it's going to feel. really uncomfortable and unusual to start using your voice, even in small ways. I'm talking tiny ways, like just saying, actually, I do have a preference where we eat for lunch as a group. I mean, you know, not just like, hey, boss, you need to do this differently for

the company, but like, hey, actually, I am in back-to-pack calls. Could we do this 15 minutes later? You know, that can feel terrifying for some of us who don't want to be a burden, X, Y, Z. And so I think, you know, in rehab, in seeking help, I realized there's a deeper desire here to not only collect all of these disparate pieces within me and find some semblance of wholeness just to feel like I can be intact, but also now my work, my opportunity, my joy is to learn how to be this whole integrated. itself in every room and see how that can actually shift in atmosphere. How, you know, if you're led by wholeness, how can wholeness start informing the way your team collaborates together? How can wholeness be expressed in policy reform? And so I do think it's critical if you're on this path.

to really decipher what values are spearheading your transformation. If it's going to be fear, if it's going to be hatred of the other, if it's going to be just your own sense of justice, but not factoring in everyone else's, yikes, we're going to create from those ideas. And, you know, I don't know that those are the outcomes I personally want to see anymore. But if you're led by wholeness and, you know, we'll say love as a broad term for now,

and collective liberation, et cetera, then that starts to, you know, imbue every conversation you have. Yeah. And it's a slow, for me it was. Maybe for some it's just kind of like wake up and everything's different. For me, it's been a really slow and steady process. I think we're now in a position where we really would love to microwave our transformation. We would love to feel better instantly.

We'd love to see the world change overnight. And I hope that people listening can realize this is all going to happen one step at a time. So please, if you're waiting for that big, perfect overnight switch, that might stop us from taking that small step in our healing journey today. And if it feels overwhelming, this is where we get to just keep breaking. it down into smaller steps until the next step feels doable. And that next step might only be becoming willing to be willing, to be willing to try something differently. Yeah, I love that. I think hopefully there's something in there that resonates. Absolutely. I mean, I can speak for myself. It certainly does for me. I think about this moment I had when I had to change everything.

And I had been taking these small steps, and I will never forget looking at someone at work and essentially saying, like, what the fuck is it going to take? And this person who I'd been going to and going to and going to was like, I had no idea you were this upset. And I thought, whoa, I have been coming to you with things that are so hard for me, they feel nearly impossible and you think I'm having like a slightly off day like hello and I think there's some sort of reckoning there was for me at least with oh I've I've been so conditioned for my whole career to be a good girl and to be a good performer and to put everyone else's needs first

that when I think I'm putting my my needs first no one even notices whoa and the chasm between so hard for me. The could we go here for lunch example, if you will, didn't even register for anybody else. And I think, I don't say that to be dismissive of myself or anyone else's journey. I actually say it to say you will be doing the work and healing in ways that other people might not even notice and it will be so major for you. And to begin is what, everyone deserves. And so I, I love listening to you talk about it because you are so far into this journey. You, you have amassed certifications in mental health. You have written this gorgeous book. You, you can speak about it from a perspective that I think can inspire other people

to begin their journey. And I, for one, I'm grateful that you've done it. I am curious about something and I realize I've never asked you this. I've thought a lot about how you're still doing so much voice work, which is amazing because you have the most amazing voice. But it struck me during this conversation. I'm like, wait, is that a space where you can still perform, but it doesn't have to be attached to your face or your body or your age or your weight or you're dancing or whatever, like, is that actually just where you feel the most free as an artist? Is that why that's a space you still really enjoy embodying in the traditional, like, entertainment world, do you think? That's a great question. I'm going to give you a very messy answer. Okay. I like messy.

Yeah, the messy answer is it's multi-pronged. One, yes, I actually have had historically and presently really positive experiences in the booth as a voiceover actor. And two, where we start to get messy, is I'm also pursuing these new professions in, you know, the mental health field. And I don't have a steady stream of income yet. Totally. So practically, I'm still on several animated shows. And that is, one revenue source while I figure out what my next steps are. And three, contracts are contracts. So I am legally obligated to fulfill some of these characters.

Gratefully, like I mentioned, I do enjoy the process. And I think the voiceover community, in my experience, is very different from folks who work on camera in that I found that it's, you know, less egocentric. It's more collaborative energetically when you're in the booth and it's, you're spitballing back and forth. And yeah, I think it's, it also is on a beautiful note, it's been a space where I get to express silliness.

And a lot of the other parts of my life now, especially running a mental health company, can feel quite serious. Yes. or even solemn. And so experiencing joy and sort of an antidote to all of these other things going on has been, I think, a source of, you know, healthy, positive, you know, occupational. Yeah, it's like it's a positive vocation. I love that. Artistically, though, I just don't know down the road where I stand on how much I want,

want to be on the performer side. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. And I think that's okay. But I also love that you've found this thing that feels good for you and generative for you. And it also strikes me as lovely for you because, as you said, you get to play. You get to reparent your inner child. And that kid didn't really get to play at work in the way. is everyone watching the edited episode assumed she did.

So I think for you, it's just really beautiful to know that in yourself, in your embodied self, in your adult self, in the human you are, you know, who is out and proud and studying and wise and all the things, the kid you look back on is having a different experience now with you and I think that's I don't know as a person who roots for you I really I like that for you thank you yeah thank you for noticing and yeah we just had Phineas and Ferb release a new season for for Disney Channel and Disney Plus and that group of people in particular yeah like I've known them for actually 20 years of my life that's so cool So, and I joke with them, like, you're actually the most stable and consistent relationship I've ever experienced.

So it is a, it is a spot of beauty. It's a very bright spot in my life at the moment. I love that. How do you feel now? I mean, precipice of the book coming out, I know there's nerves about that. But just in life, how are you doing? I feel more and more okay with who I'm not and more and more an acceptance of the fact that my path is not going to look the way I once thought it would. And more and more eager to plug into local community, non-industry-related efforts to just look out for people, take care of each other, share.

meals, simplify my lifestyle. I mean, it was already quite simple, but I just, I feel more and more at peace with, ironically, after the book is out, being as unrecognizable as possible and fading into obscurity as quickly as possible. If the life path allows for that, you know, if I need to come forward and say things, I'll say things. But I just feel more and more at ease with letting the past go and saying I'm going to walk this walk of advocacy for a period of time, but I'm also not going to glue myself to this sole mission because I've got more to learn. I've got more to experience. I'm entering my 30s. So I'm, you know, I think when this is out, I'll be newly 32.

or close to it. And there's something just about aging that, you know, shifts. It just shifts your orientation. I've got nephews now who are the age I was when I started working professionally. That's a profound thing to witness and go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I should have, none of that should have ever happened because they on a, them being on a set, wow. Yeah. Hard to fathom.

But yeah, I just, I think things are generally, I just, I want to feel more and more closely connected to humanity and to community and to whatever it takes for us to repair and reimagine a better world for everyone. And I mean, it's, it sounds abstract, but I mean that in very, like, concrete, daily decision kind of ways. Yeah. Yeah. Just feeling more embodied, more heart led. And finally, finally, it's kind of scary for me because it's new, but getting in touch with anger. Yikes. What a powerful, what a powerful and necessary process. That is really helping. Sorry, I'm meandering now, but something I'm noticing, you speak to things that happen in the industry, but happens everywhere. The wage gap. Yo. I was given. presented an offer with some terms recently and I was like this is actually absurd I don't I'm not even we're this is so unfair and like it's not a livable wage like we know I can't do this but I'm realizing 10 years ago I wouldn't have even noticed I would have been like oh wow thank you yeah I'll take anything and then you know I would go back to my budget and be like okay how many

other jobs am I going to need to get so that I can make ends meet and now I'm like wait a second, I can feel that something's not right. So I'm more in touch with like, okay, we've been at this for, you know, over two decades. It's time for different terms. Yeah. And I think there's nothing wrong with that. I think there's nothing wrong with knowing your worth. We're talking fairness. Well, that's it. Basic fairness is actually should just be ground zero, right? would you say that it's that kind of acknowledgement or perhaps that the pursuit of a new relationship with certain emotions like anger that that feels like your work in progress as you go forward because you've done so much work that I'm looking at you in this moment going like what do you kind of what do you feel like is left l-o-l then the first thing I need to do is let you in on the rest of it because you because if I'm only showing you where the completed version, then that's probably some work to do. Actually, you'll see all of that in the book.

If you're talking about I want to see a work in progress, the mess is on full display. Because you don't hear from the wise contemplative self. You hear the psychological self-figuring things out in real time. And I would say, yes, my current journey is negotiating. anger and learning to steward um yeah it it is around it is around worth it is around self-trust it is around anger as being an indicator that something needs attention and i think it's it's also where i'm really presently moving for yeah i'm trying to think like i'm actually don't know what comes after this book because it's sort of the culmination of this

you know first century of life and first third of life maybe and I'm kind of handing it over to everyone and then saying I actually don't have a plan from here on out so that's exciting it's exciting and nerve-wracking and that's you where I'm absolutely a work in progress. I have no idea what happens after this. I love that for you. I also don't know if the industry is going to spite me. So there's that.

I don't think so. I don't think so. I think, look, I think we are in a really watershed moment as people. And I think bravery, particularly empath. aesthetic bravery is what we need. So I'm excited for you. And I'm excited for everyone who gets to read the book. Congratulations. Yes, thank you. And if you do read it, please read with care and take your time because it covers a lot. Yeah. And I would love to hear people's responses. Yeah. Because this is this, all of this, it's a communal act. Like we've got to do this together.

Can't do these things alone. Preach it, my friend. Preach it. Thank you. Thank you for I mean today. This is an I-heart podcast.