Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Amanda Knox - Part 1

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

Amanda Knox went from a college student studying abroad to the center of one of the most notorious wrongful convictions of our time. Vilified by tabloids and betrayed by a justice system, she spent years fighting not just for her freedom, but for her truth — the actual truth — to be told.Now a bestselling author, journalist, and advocate, Amanda is reclaiming her voice and dismantling the false narratives adopted by a media fever storm that once defined her. Find out how Hulu’s highly anticipated limited series "The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox" empowered her to finally seize control of her own story, and how another woman who intimately understands media vilification, none other than Monica Lewinsky, joined the deeply personal fight.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hi, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello, Wipsmarties. Today we are joined by a guest that has fascinated me for nearly 20 years and likewise the world. Today's guest is none other than Amanda Knox. You likely know Amanda as an American author, an activist, a journalist. You might know her as a woman who was wrongfully convicted in college for the murder of her roommate in Italy in a year that she was studying abroad. And after that wrongful conviction in 2007, she spent four years behind bars, eventually having her conviction overturned when the man who murdered her roommate, was sentenced.

The powerful thing about Amanda's story is not only that she became a casualty of an unjust justice system, but that she became fodder for a media machine that didn't care about the truth. They cared about scandal and paper sales and salacious stories that they knew would clickbait around the world.

And this young girl's life was turned up, side down in a way that has had lasting and permanent effects in some circles. Through her prolonged legal process and her advocacy for other women behind bars, Amanda began to find purpose again. And eventually that purpose led to the passion of advocacy. She has become a best-selling author. She has become a journalist. Her first book was titled Waiting to Be heard a memoir. In 2018, she chose to shed light on stories like hers, hosting The Scarlet Letter Reports, a television series that examines the incredibly toxic nature of the way that we publicly shame women in particular. And her second memoir released this year is titled Free,

My Search for Meaning. It is an absolutely stunning book that affected me so deeply. And now, we are on the precipice of her life story being turned into a show. It'll be hitting Hulu on August 20th, titled The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, and Amanda served as executive producer alongside another woman who knows what it's like to be turned into media fodder, Monica Lewinsky. Amanda's going to join us today to talk about her journey, how she's learned to heal, what it means to stand up for others, and what it means to reclaim her story.

Let's dive in with Amanda Knox. Amanda, I am so thrilled, elated, excited to have you on the show today. Thank you so much for joining me. Oh, well, thank you for having me. I'm excited as well. Yeah, I am, I think. about you a lot, which probably sounds a bit odd, but interestingly, there have been certain touch points in my life as a woman who very quickly was in the public eye at 21, who, you know,

my first show started in 2003. Your life obviously exploded into public consciousness in 2007, the internet and the forums and the chat rooms and things were there, Facebook was there, social media wasn't yet, but we have both in our sort of peer group experienced cycles of becoming something for others that maybe doesn't feel true for us. Totally. And what's been so interesting to me about certain people, people who I've tracked through hearing about their experiences and going, oh, wow, someday I want to, like, have a glass of wine with that person and talk about it.

You know, things you've shared more recently and in your second book and the frankness with which you've talked about your experiences have made me go like, oh, definitely, we need to hang at some point. All right. Let's put it on the calendar. I'll bring a wine. I was like, I got to get her on the show. And then I also have to ask her, like, out for a meal.

So anyway, I just wanted you to know the way I kind of think about what you do in the world with your life and your circumstances. And I really admire you. Oh, well, thank you very much. I really appreciate that. I know that I still tend to be a rather controversial figure in some people's minds. So I'm really thrilled that, uh, that, um, that. the messages that I'm putting out there and the way that I tell my story has resonated with you because that's really the goal is like after being really like ostracized and and elevated onto this pedestal but only to be viewed in the worst possible light it has felt very lonely and so a part of like the desire to tell my story is in part to reconnect with humanity and and to like hold on to the things that are important and help them continue to live. So that's, that's cool. Well, I think a lot

about reclamation for people, especially people who get turned into characters in ways that they, you know, you can't put it back in the bottle once it's out. Whether it's true or not, you can't get it back. And I, over the years that that you've opened up your life, I've just been so taken aback by things that I've learned and it has been a really interesting sort of experience to be both, you know, a storyteller, which makes me really passionate about getting to know people's real stories and to also know what it's like to have been,

through the public machine in the era, in particular that we've been in it. True. So before we get to where you are and how this all began for you, if it's all right with you, I'd actually like to rewind even farther. I think about people I get to sit down and talk to have a story or a project or a series of those things that people know, normally from your adult life. And I love to ask people this question

and I especially love to ask people with young kids this question because I feel like it adds something to it. I always wonder if today we could, you know, jump into back to the future and you could go back and interact with your young self at eight or nine years old. Are there things you would see in her that really track for who you are today?

Are there things you would see maybe in her that remind you of your own kid? I'm always curious if you think like, oh, yeah, I see myself in her. Or I absolutely never, well, especially maybe for you, I could never have imagined what my life would be now. I just wonder what connects. Yeah, well, let's see, eight-year-old me. Let's see, that would have been third grade. So, and I mean, I'm sure we don't have to be this specific. But like in third grade, I was, you know, drawing. I was doing a ton of drawing. I was playing. I was doing gymnastics and soccer and softball. I was very athletic. I was singing and dancing. I was a very silly kid. I loved stories. So this was back when I was still in elementary school. And my mom worked at my elementary school, which means that, I would always get to school early and stay late after all the kids were gone.

And so the school sort of got to be my playground, the entire thing. And I got to just, you know, make use of all the stationary. And, you know, so I was like, while my mom was grading paperwork, I was writing my own little stories. And I was already a little author, you know, like so. So in many ways, I'm very, very similar to that girl. like that that girl has persisted throughout this you know ship of theseus uh that has been through quite the the maelstrom and i'm really grateful that that is true that i still remain a person who deep down is very um silly and and curious and um and and and compassionate i think that's

something that I've always been is I've always been aware of like people's energy around me and I've always been aware of like who's the little outcast in the room and I'm going to hang out with them. So that was something that I've always done. And I think the thing that is different, that is, you know, noticeably different between me then and me now is, um, fear and sadness i mean i mean it's it's just it's like um and you know it's it's interesting with my four-year-old daughter who is remarkably similar to me like she looks exactly like i looked when i was her age and i think the only thing that is super different about her and me is that She likes spooky things.

Like, she's already, like, in love with Jack Skellington and, you know, like, all of those kind of things. And, like, I was, I have never been a scary movie kind of person. So I feel like maybe I might be raising a goth by accident. I don't know how. I don't know, like, how that genetically came out of my body. But, like, yeah. So otherwise, we're just, like, we're both very silly. We both are, like, really happy to get.

get into costume and get into character. So that silliness and that like being drawn to stories, like just now, like I mentioned, I was slightly late coming to the podcast because I was assisting my daughter in the bathroom. But the way that I assist her is every single time we go to the bathroom, she wants me to tell her a story while she's going to the bathroom. So I have to sit there and tell her a story. And she's not going potty until I'm done with the story. So it's like a whole thing.

Amazing. And yeah, but like, the one thing that is different is that up until everything that happened to me when I was 20, I swear, like, nothing bad had ever happened to me. Like, it's true. And I mean, it's not to say that I had like the perfect childhood on paper, right? Like, I had divorced parents, whatever. Like, but I did not. experienced that negatively. I got to have two Christmases and two birthdays and my parents lived within two blocks of each other. And so it was very easy and very fluid for me to move back and forth between those spaces. And it really wasn't weird because my entire extended family lived within walking distance. So it just felt natural to like, oh, I'm going to go to my dad's house. I'm going to go to my omah's house. I'm going to go to my house. You know, like all of these things were

very fluid. So I never experienced any of those what people think about as like traditionally negative childhood experiences did not have that for me. I never struggled in school. I never struggled at sports. Everything came easy to me. I made friends easily. And so I really grew up in this like blessed experience, this really, really lucky life where I felt very loved, very supported. and everything came easy to me. And so what that did is it put me in a position to be very, very vulnerable when something bad and not just a little bad, but very, very bad came my way because I was utterly unprepared for how to deal with it. Right.

And then that feeling of being utterly unprepared to deal with it, like, you never, you never like forget that feeling of like the train just hitting you out of nowhere. And I think for the rest of your life, you're a little twitchy in a way that you never were before because you got hit by a freaking train. Yes. And that came out of nowhere. And if it happened once, it could happen again, like, those are the things that go in my mind. Or, like, another big difference. And this is going to sound, like, really freaking sad. And it's something that I'm still trying to work through is because the really bad thing that happened to me was not just, like, one bad thing.

It was, like, a prolonged series of bad things that kept. just building on each other and really took over my life, I had to sit for a very long time in suffering, like prolonged existential anguish. And I weirdly became comfortable in it. Like, whereas before I would wake up, you know, everything is rainbows and sunshine. Like, now I was waking up and everything was a cloudy day. And that became like the new, comfortable, normal thing for me. Yes. And when the bad circumstances go away, the cloudy weather doesn't.

Like, you know, like trying to get back to what you were before doesn't really work. And so I'm better now at, like, pushing those clouds up so that I get a little more sunshine coming my way. But like there's something weirdly comforting to me about sadness because I feel almost safer when I'm sad than when I'm happy. Because when I'm happy, I'm afraid that something bad is going to happen to me. And that's, that's where, like, I'm still working through some PTSD response because, like, when everything is going well and when I'm happy, that's when I start feeling scared. That's something bad is going to happen to me. We'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors.

When I think about the thing that felt like the train wreck for me, in my early 20s that was global and awful, I know what you mean about what you get used to. And what I was thinking about when I was listening to you speak and you were describing those PTSD symptoms before you named the acronym was when you experienced that prolonged suffering, you almost get used to being the frog in the boiling water. And then it sort of seems like if the water's hot all the time,

it won't be such a shock the next time it boils. Right. You know, and when you start to unlearn that, when you have to do the work, as you said, to push the clouds up, you know, I had a train wreck and then 20 years later it felt like I had another one. and the thing that was really tough for me about it was being in a place doing the recovery once my PTSD was diagnosed and feeling like I'd really begun to turn the water temperature down a lot and then it boiled and I was like fuck because if I maybe if I had just stay maybe if I just let it stay hot this wouldn't feel so bad but that's no way to live a life no and and so i share that with you just because i i really want you to know how much i mean like oh my god i feel it in my bones i feel for you

and i know what you mean when you say you don't really ever go back because when you've been boiled you will never unknow the feeling yeah exactly of the boiling it just doesn't work like that. No. And yeah, I do not relish the moment that my daughter gets really hurt by something because, I mean, I know that as a mom, I will be prepared. I am more than prepared to like help her figure that out and process that. I don't love the fact that as a mom that I can't just protect her from that forever. Right. That you can't stop it. I can't stop it. And then in the meantime, I'm just like relishing, witnessing my daughter experienced the world the way I know I once experienced it, which was without pain, without that flinch reaction, without that

hypervigilance, without that sadness, that like deep knowing sadness. Yeah. And so I guess it's just like one of those weird, you know, blessings of being a parent. that I wasn't really, that's not what I signed up for, but it's like something that has come back for me in a karmic way. It's like you get to experience that again, at least, at least as a witness. And I really appreciate that because, you know, when you lose your innocence that way, it's a real loss. It's like a death. It is. It's, and it, and no one teaches you how to mourn yourself.

We don't really have a great practice to understand the death of part of yourself in our society. And I think it's something that increases pain in the world. And it's why I'm so kind of wind. did in a good way by people who do what you're doing. I recently was in some community with Monica Lewinsky. Yeah. And we got to talk about a lot of this. Yay. Oh, she's a great person to talk to about it. I mean, just incredible. And I think I am so grateful for all of the women in the world in our effective peer group who have just chosen to rescue themselves. I think, you know, I try to put myself in the place that I was at 20. I was in college. I just finished my

junior year. I was getting ready for my senior year. And then I booked my first TV show. And it was like being plucked and dropped in a completely foreign universe. Totally. And you, were 20 when you went to study abroad in Italy, which I'm sure felt like this joyous experience. You were like expanding into the world. You were going to, you know, learn this language. You knew a little of. Right. And be immersed in a culture and just, yeah, like the idea of growing as a human being because of just by virtue of being in this new environment was absolutely part of the, part of the like excitement of it. Absolutely. What were you excited about? What were you studying at the time?

Why did you pick Italy? How did it begin? Well, I was always really interested in languages, in part because I grew up, again, in this, like, in these divorced households where there was a very different culture between what was going on at my dad's house versus what was going on at my mom's house. My mom was born in Germany, and so on my mom's side of my family, we are very culturally German. still to this day. Like, we don't sing, you know, English Christmas songs. We sing German Christmas songs at Christmas time. So I grew up at my mom's house eating hot coal and sauerkraut and Trouleden, all of, you know, swetchken knur, all of that. And then at my dad's house, it was like hot dogs and hamburger helper. And he doesn't, you know, he's never spoken a foreign language word in

his life. So it's, it was interesting to like see. how from a very young age to really like understand in my in my bones that there are different ways to exist in the world and none of them is better than another they're just different and it made me really curious about all of the different ways that people are in the world and so I you know the first time I studied abroad was actually in Japan I was 14 it was during high school and I spent three weeks in Kyoto living with a family there with who had a girl who was my age. So I was like hanging out in her bedroom with her, going to classes with her, you know, doing all of that. And it was such an incredible experience.

It left such a positive impression upon me that I immediately knew that I wanted to do that more. I wanted to study abroad more. And the next natural opportunity was college. And, you know, when you're in college, they're like junior year, because then you've gotten enough. credits in to like be kind of an adult but you're not on your way out because you're not a senior year is the perfect year to study abroad and that was my plan and why Italy well also when I was 14 I went to Italy with my family and it was when I think about like places that I want to go in the world I always there's like a criteria that I think about one is that I want there to be amazing food.

Yep. Two is that I want there to be a culture shock. Three is that I want there to be like beautiful nature. Mm-hmm. And four is I want there to be beautiful history. And Italy ticked all of those boxes. Yeah. And more.

As an Italian, yes. I mean, come on. It's Italy. Are we kidding me? And so as somebody who is like, technically studying languages because I want to become a translator. That's my excuse to my dad. Italy, like, Italian is not the most, you know, effective language to learn. If I really wanted to be becoming a professional translator and get actual paid jobs, I would have been going for Spanish or Chinese

or something like that. But no, I really was just infatuated with Italy after having spent some time there with my family. I actually had studied a little bit of Latin back in middle school. And so, like, I had read about, like, the forum and, you know, all of that. And so I just had this, like, really idealistic vision of what Italy was going to be in my mind. And I'll, you know, as soon as I got there, it was exactly, it lived up to my expectations. Like, the few weeks that I was there when everything was going great were some of the best weeks of my life. Like, there were some, like, some moments of awkwardness in the transition. And, but like, you know, you chalk that up to being a young woman in a foreign country who's figuring herself out. Like,

it's going to be a little awkward, but nothing like bad. And, and I had a great time. And I met great people and I was really grateful. We'll be back in just a minute. We'll be back in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors. How long had you been there when you came home and knew something was wrong

and, you know, paint that picture in any way that you wished you or not, but, you know, you call the police expecting help. Yeah. And everything turns upside down. How long had you been in the country?

So I had been in Perusia for about five weeks. So not very long at all. Still sort of getting my bearings, still meeting people, still finding my rhythm. I had just recently met a young computer engineering student, my Italian stallion, who was this bespeckled Point Dexter named Rafael Soletchito. I met him at a little classical music concert that was at my school. And so it was, everything was still very brand new feeling, right? And yet, you know, coming home that morning, I had spent the night with Raphaelie and I came home actually because I wanted to get changed into something pretty.

It was a holiday. So we were planning, Rafael was planning on taking me out on this romantic weekend out of town into like the, you know, the hills of Umbria. You wanted to like treat me to truffles, which I had never had before. You were like, I'm going to live my under the Tuscan sun dream. This is my under the Tuscan sun life. And and so all my, all I was planning to do that morning was to just go home really quickly, change into something like take a shower, change into something pretty and then go back to his place and go off on our little like romantic weekend. That's where my head was at when I came home and noticed that something was amiss. So first of all, the front door was wide open. And it was sunny out, but it wasn't like hot. This was November, this was the

beginning of November. So I was like, that's odd. And I called out in. to the house. I was asking, like, is anyone home? No one responded. So I thought, huh, that's weird. And I didn't automatically jump to the conclusion. Someone's been murdered in my house. I just was like, huh. And I, you know, I remembered that the latch to the door was faulty. And so if you really wanted to keep the door closed, you had to lock it with a key. And so it occurred to me, well, maybe when someone was leaving, they forgot to lock, you know, the key all the way. Who knows? Like, maybe that's what happened. So, like, I'm doing all of these processes in my brain to go, huh, and then think, what could be the possible reason for that? Okay, fine. So I had a series of those as I walked

through my house that morning. And again, with the very, like, limited purpose of going and taking a shower, getting changed into something pretty, and then leaving again. So the front door is open. Weird. I close it behind me. I lock it behind me. I go and I get under dressed. I go into my bathroom and start brushing my teeth, you know, getting ready to take a shower. And as I'm brushing my teeth, I remember like spitting into the sink and being like, huh, there were drops of blood in the sink. Now, again, my brain did not go. Someone's been murdered. My brain went, oh, well, first of all, I was like, are my gums bleeding? And then I was like, no, it's not, it's like, I checked and it was old blood.

Like, he had dried, and I was like, oh, that's weird. So then I thought, well, maybe someone cut themselves or maybe someone had menstrual, like, blood and washed their hands. Like, I didn't know. Like, it wasn't, like, a ton of blood. I just thought, that's weird. And then I tried to come up with a reason for it. And then was like, okay. And then I got into the shower, took a shower, got out of the shower.

And as I was stepping out onto the bath mat to, you know, dry myself off, I noticed more blood on the bath mat. And I thought, that's weird. Go to my room. I get dressed. I start blowdrying my hair in a separate bathroom. And I notice that there is feces left in the toilet. And that is when all of the different things that I noticed sort of like smashed together as I, holy shit, something's wrong. Because all of those things, like I could come up with little excuses for all of the things up to that moment.

but, like, feces being left in the toilet was very unlike my roommates. Like, I could not imagine any of them doing that. And it was the first thing that made me think, oh, no, someone else has been in my house. In the house. Yeah, you got the feeling. I got the, like, creepy feeling. And I was like, oh, my God, is someone in the house right now? And so I immediately left.

And I went back to Raphael's house and I asked him, like, I told him all about this. And I was like, this, do I sound like I'm overreacting, like something feels off? And he was like, well, if you're feeling unsure, you should just call your roommates and figure out what's going on. And so I did. I tried calling my roommates and only one of them picked up. I had three roommates. I tried calling Meredith. She didn't answer.

I tried calling Laura. She didn't answer. I finally got a hold of Filomena. She said that she hadn't been home that night, just like she had been at her boyfriends, just like I had been at mines. And so, like, all of this, like, cascabing. of like, okay, trying to figure out what's going on. I'm going to meet Philomena back at the house. We're going to investigate this further.

And when we do, we discover that I actually go into her room. I had no reason to go into her room before. So now I go into her room and I see that the window has been broken. And so someone has broken into our house, come in through the window, and we're looking around and we're going, this is so weird because our laptops are here, her camera, Her camera is there. Like, all of this stuff that's very valuable and easy to steal has not been stolen. So we're like, okay, someone broke into our house, but to use the bathroom, like, what is going on?

And then leave it there? Yeah. And then, like, I just like, what is going on? So we call the police and we, and, you know, and then we assume that in calling the police, like, we're going to get some help. We're going to figure out what's going on. We're still trying to get a hold of our other roommates. We can't. We notice that Laura's room or Lauda's room is like completely fine, completely untouched.

No one has even been in her room. And then we try to check Meredith's and her door is locked. And we're like, what is going on? And we start thinking, like, is Meredith in her room? Is she like, has she locked the door? Like what's going on? Is she home? Is she scared? Like, what is going on?

We're trying and trying to get a hold of her. And then finally someone breaks down her door. and we see well they see I did not actually see I was not the one who broke down the door and it was all the way down a hallway so like I didn't see into the room

thank God I never actually like saw her body in person but as soon as it was I think Philomena's boyfriend broke in the door everyone started screaming I mean yeah And all speaking in rapid fire Italian.

And by then, like, a few police officers that arrived and so they're like, get out of the house, get out of the house. And so I'm sitting there trying to figure out what it is they even saw in Meredith's room. Right. And this is like the first sort of getting hit by a train moment because it's like I didn't know what was going on. I didn't actually see what they saw in the room. But they're clearly freaking out. So something really bad is in that room. I don't know if it's the person who broke into our house.

Like a part of me was wondering, maybe a person broke into our house but cut themselves and then, like, is injured in her room. Like, I don't know. Like, I just don't know. And I keep, like, the last thing that my brain wants to believe is that Meredith has been murdered. And so I'm slow on the uptake of this completely insane people. piece of information, which also happens to be the truth. And, and then I spend the next several days in a kind of limbo of shock and, and being at the, you know, at the mercy of police officers who are coming to me and, and wanting me to just tell them anything I can possibly know

or remember about anyone who might have, like, you know, had something against Meredith or anything that I noticed when I first came home because I was the first one to come home. So, like, I'm just, like, downloading all of this information over and over and over again, not realizing that I'm not just like roommate number three in an episode of Law and Order now, which is already surreal as it is. I'm actually suspect number one, and I have no fucking clue. do you think that was because you were a foreigner and because for whatever reason in the in the barrier of language they first like were they just suspicious that you'd taken a shower yeah so i've asked myself this question quite a lot and i i think i got some clarity some clarity after having read my prosecutor's book and also spoken with him extensively in person. And the thing, so there were a number of things that that singled me out compared to other

people and one of which was that of all the other people who lived in the house where Meredith lived and there were two floors. So there was our apartment, which was the upper floor, and there was a downstairs floor and they weren't connected. So it's not like, Like, you know, they weren't connected, but we were all in one house, right? So four girls were living upstairs, four guys were living downstairs. And, you know, we hung out with each other. Meredith was sort of kind of dating one of the guys downstairs. So there was, you know, access to the house was available basically to all of the people who were there.

Sure. And the police, especially my prosecutor, from the very beginning, believed that someone who had access to the house was involved with the crime. And the reason they believed that was because my prosecutor, who led the investigation, that's how it works in Italy, he took one look at the break-in, like the broken window, you know, how this person would have climbed into our house. And he said, no one would really do that. He didn't believe that someone would break in through that particular window in our house. And so he said that the break-in was not real.

It was staged. And only someone who had access to the house would stage a break-in. And from there, he logically deduced everything else. So if someone who lives in the house is guilty, who could it be? Well, it couldn't be any of the guys who lived downstairs because they were out of town with their families at the time. It couldn't have been Laura because she was out of town in Rome at the time. And again, like, they call it Alibidi di Fero, an ironclad alibi.

So that left Philomena and it left me. And we had the same alibi. Basically, we were at our boyfriend's house. But Philomena cried more than me. me. Philomena was older than me and also a law intern. So she got a lawyer very quickly. I did not. God. I didn't, there was some like mistranslation moments. Like when I told the police, like someone asked me, does Meredith ever lock her door? And I said she sometimes locks her door. And Filomena was like, she never locks her door. And why are you always saying she locks her door? And I didn't say she always locks her door. I said she sometimes locks her door. So there was just like little moments of mistranslation where I think that me not being a fluent speaker, me being an outsider, me being and sort of deer in headlights came across as suspicious to the police. And so very, very quickly, like from day one, they had that.

their eyes on me. And they deny this. They say that they did not fixate on me. But it's hard for me to believe because of every single person who lived in that house, the only person who they tapped her phone from the very beginning was me. Right. So I was clearly of special interest. I was questioned far more than anyone else who knew Meredith, who lived in the house, anything. And so from the very beginning, the police thought that I was involved somehow. I just can't imagine both the sense of impending doom and also the naivete knowing you weren't there that the doom could be impending. Yeah, I had no idea that there was doom impending. I did not. And, and you know, I mean, I mean, listen, anyone who wasn't living under

Iraq knows what happens you were arrested for her murder you know you were convicted of her murder despite the fact that from the beginning there were investigators pointing out that there was not evidence that there that there was nothing to tie you to this and I will say I remember at the time hearing about you and the boyfriend and maybe it was a whole like polyamorous thing and it they really really tried to make it seem scandalous and sexual and I my heart hurts for you because they put you in that femme fatale like evil woman archetype it was like a Tarantino film but with me and my name and my face it was it was really bad. This conversation is so immensely powerful to me, and I have so many more questions to ask Amanda,

so she is graciously going to stick around so we can finish this up in part two. This is an IHeart podcast.