Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Amanda Knox Part 2

Episode Date: August 21, 2025

Sophia's in-depth conversation with Amanda Knox continues with what happened after the guilty verdict - from Amanda's traumatic time spent in an Italian jail to the equally shocking revelation that her conviction was overturned and she'd be set free. Amanda takes us through the painful process of grieving all that was lost, finding purpose in what came next and seeking closure through the most unexpected source.Before you watch the rest of "The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox" on Hulu, listen to Amanda share her story in her own words.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hi, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to Part 2 of Work in Progress with the in imitable Amanda Knox. Let's continue. It's so amazing, you know, all these years later that you you've turned this into, not only that you're an advocate, but you've also turned your advocacy into projects like the Scarlet Letter Reports, you know. Oh, yeah, thanks for bringing up the

Scarlet Letter Report. I just think it's so amazing because you, in it, you're examining the very gendered nature of public shaming. And the way we treat women is just horrific. And I've been through it in my way. Obviously, we're talking about your story today. I think about what was done to Britney Spears. I think about what just happened with Karen Reed. You know, and you've done things to remove the veil and particularly examine the ways women are treated. And I want to talk about all of those lessons, but before we zoom out to the way the world treats us, I guess I just want to know, you know, obviously people can read your books. I don't want you to have to recount your whole story. It's a lot. It will be there a while. It's a big story. But I think about the fear I feel

imagining that moment to be falsely convicted of a crime so egregiously with no real evidence to be raked over the coals in the court of public opinion because they didn't have the evidence and so they needed people just not to like you. You were a kid. How did you cope? Because I think it's a miracle that you're not sitting in the corner eating your own hair right now.

That's for later. Yeah. Were you questioning your sanity? Were you questioning reality? What did you do to remain tethered to the truth in your young life in this place. Yeah. So to answer your question, absolutely. Like, everything went through my mind to try to explain what was happening to me and why. And I mean, I went through, I feel like,

all the stages of grief as well, where part of it was denial. Like, I spent a while there in prison feeling like I was living somebody else's life by mistake. And that like some adult was going to figure it out and give me my life back. So, like, that was also the kid mentality that I had, where I was like, I'm in over my head because I'm a kid and I need some adult who's in charge who is sane to, like, fix the situation. Like it was like, yeah, that's how it felt for quite a bit of time was like, I'm in a tough situation, but if I just endure for long enough, the adults will do the right thing. That's what it felt like. And like in those early days, I actually to get myself through just the time and the insanity. Um, like just sitting there and a, I mean, there's, there was so many bad things, though. Like, it's, there's the courtroom bad things, like having to listen to people talk in very gruesome detail about the murder of your friend, but then also putting the knife in your hand or like listening to my prosecutor, like, like, create this. story about like putting words, literal words into what I supposedly said to Meredith as I'm like taunting and torturing her to death. Like just just having to sit there. I'm just like

while this is just happening around me like it's no big deal and and not be able to do anything about it. So just like sitting there. And. And. And. And. I. You know what I think about for you? I think about the way men just are allowed to sit in court, but women, everything you do is picked apart. And if you cry, maybe you're crying because you're guilty. If you don't cry, you're a frigid bitch who has no feelings and you must be a murderer. If you don't, like, no matter what you do, they're going to tell you it's wrong.

Right. If you look good, they say, oh, look, she's trying to like use her feminine wiles to, like, seduce the judge. If you don't look good, it's like, oh, look. at her you know like it's just it's just nonstop it it really is truly picking a human being apart constantly being viewed in the worst possible light it's utterly debilitating it makes you feel like nothing you say or do matters it will only make things worse it makes you just want to disappear and i mean like i was doing little things like i was an athletic kid and And so like I had little mantras when I was being, you know, riding my bike up a steep hill where I would just do like the little engine that could.

I think I can. I think I can. I think I can. And sometimes like I would just be sitting there in court just going, I think I can't. I think I can't. I think like I can't. I think like I can't. I just need to get through this moment. Yeah. And have you ever actually, I'm curious because I feel like I may be the biggest fan of the Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt that I feel like is like. Love that show. Underrated show ever. But like that show extremely speaks to me. Also just because she's like, anybody can survive anything for 10 seconds. Like that is,

that is real. Like, I don't know, I don't know about like the next hour, but I can deal with this hour. And then I'll deal with the next hour next. After the verdict, that became an even more important part of my ability to survive.

Because now I wasn't just waiting for a verdict. I had a 26-year sentence sitting in front of me and I had to grieve my entire life. The life that I thought I was going to get to have with like a family and a career, like that was gone. And I was now imagining emerging from prison obsolete and unmoored and unrecognizable and just like a body that was now in a world

that had moved on without me and that was primed to want to punish me that's what I would that's the forecast of my life and I did not know how to live that life so I stopped trying to figure out

how to live it and I started trying to figure out how to live just today like if I could find a reason to live today that would be enough and then I worry about tomorrow and what did you start to lean on. I mean, as a person who loves literature, were you reading a lot? Were you thinking

to yourself, well, maybe I'll get a degree here. I know people do that. You know, it does seem to be a pursuit for people particularly who are falsely convicted. You know, we've learned so much from organizations like the Innocence Project. I mean, what did you think your coping strategies would be? Great question. So the pipeline for getting a degree didn't exist in my prison. So there wasn't really an avenue for me to do that. I did have a connection with a professor at the UW who like continued to help me like try to gain like continue getting, you know, credits for work that I would send into him like translation work and stuff. But like I didn't really have. a clear sense of being able to have a degree. Right. Instead, what I had a clear sense of was reading voraciously. I read a lot.

And I looked around me and I tried to figure out how I could have a meaningful existence within the confines of the situation that I was in. And kind of ironically, I had set out to become a translator. and now here I am over two years in prison, fluent in Italian. And there are a number of people around me who either are foreigners also and so are not fluent in Italian and need a translator. Wow.

Or they are Italian speakers, but they don't know how to read or write. Wow. So suddenly I realized that I was actually a very valuable resource. and that sort of became my unofficial job and sense of purpose while I was inside. I was the translator because there was no translator. And I was the scribe because there was no scribe. And so every day, every day I was brought into other people's cells to help them read and write or do all those, translate, do all those kinds of things.

Or if someone had to go to the doctor and needed to explain. some kind of ailment, I went with them to the doctor to help him communicate because there just wasn't that function in the prison where I was at. Wow. So weirdly, once I had sort of accepted that I am a prisoner and this is my reality and my reality isn't outside of prison, I was able to find something very purposeful to do. Did that make me feel happy? No. No. but it at least gave me a feeling of purposefulness. Yeah. So, and that was enough, at least for the amount of time that I was there.

Right. Well, yeah, something, something to do, something to occupy the mind. And I'm sure, you know, emotionally it helped that it was helpful work. When everything, I mean, what is even the word, my God, when everything shifted was righted, when you were exonerated, when they caught the actual killer, the evidenced killer whose fingerprints and all the rest of it were there the whole time, part of me thinks, the relief must have been overwhelming and then part of me thinks to myself, but by then you you were experiencing such trauma. You'd experienced such trauma on repeat. Were you even able to

feel relieved? Did you have a moment where you thought everything might go back to normal or did you know that there was no normal to go back to? Good question. So my wrongful conviction did not work itself out the way that you typically hear about wrongful convictions in the US. And that's in part because I'm a woman. In most like classic examples of a wrongful conviction, particularly here in the US, what happened was somebody got, you know, murdered and they didn't have advanced DNA technology at the time or they just didn't test things back then. And so they just get the wrong guy. And then 20 years go by and they finally test the DNA. And it reveals that the person who was convicted was actually innocent. And it also like reveals who the real killer was. And so there's this like

moment of like, bah, and everyone realizes the truth. And then the person who, you know, is innocent, gets out. The person who did it goes in. Everyone's happy. Justice is. done, you know, wedding bells, whatever. And that was not how it worked out in my case. Because two weeks after the, you know, Meredith's murder, we already knew who the murderer was. Right. So it's not that I was eventually exonerated because they finally discovered who the real killer was. was. They knew who the real killer was all along. It's just that by the time they had identified him, they had already arrested me. And so instead of admitting that they were wrong, they doubled down. They doubled down. And the police argued that I had committed the crime with the person who

had actually committed this crime. And so when I was acquitted, it wasn't this like sweeping universal like acknowledgement of my innocence the way that it would have been otherwise. Instead, it was, oh, well, they got one of the murderers, but the other ones got off, you know, they got off on a technicality. And so to this day, to this day in Italy, there is a large portion of the population that still that I am guilty of committing this crime despite the fact that there is no evidence of my involvement at all. And that is because the way that the information was revealed to them and the story, the way to interpret that information, the way that was revealed to them, set up a

expectation of my guilt and this sort of like guilt presumptive assumption about me. And And it's just this feeling, like, it's, it's not a great feeling when, like, people to this day, even though I have, like, you know, the exoneration, I have the paperwork, I have the proof of my innocence, all of that. People to this day are still wondering. Like, and a lot of it, and a lot of it has to do with, again, the way that we vilify women publicly. Yeah. Right. Like, you say that you're not right. And, you know, and, and, and, and. And, and. you know, maybe she's innocent, but she's deeply unsettling. Like, there's just like this, like, there's something guilty about her. I don't know what it is. And so, like, there's that, like, I did come out of prison. So to answer, to finally answer your question, I was acquitted. I was released from prison, and I was utterly overwhelmed with relief.

But that relief was quickly tinged with the. realization that I did not get to go back to just being an anonymous college student. Yeah. I was forever branded the girl who was accused of murder. Yes. And I would be living with that being the role that had been cast for me. Right. That was the trajectory of my life, was carrying this scarlet letter with me forever.

Right. We'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors. The story that makes you famous, the story that garners the attention, the story that gets the most clicks, even when acknowledged to not be true, is never written about and clicked on the way the lie was. the lie is the juicy thing and when an organization you know the the police corporation a team whatever can profit off of vilifying someone they will and that fire will burn so big and so bright and when it's put out it's not burning anymore it doesn't get the eyeballs right and that is something, I mean, it's a reckoning our society needs to have. Because to your point to put people through this, to rip them apart in shreds, it is debilitating. You don't get to be the same,

even if you are a courageous enough person to put your life back together. And I don't think people get it and maybe people who you know have been through things that have given them PTSD just get each other yeah um i'm really fascinated by your choice to seek out communication with the prosecutor to choose to do that was that something you realized you needed to heal or was it something you hoped would help you expand your understanding? Did it give you any kind of closure? Well, that was a word that I was chasing, right? It was closure. I, and I feel like anyone who has been hurt by another human being can relate to this. Yeah. You want to know if the person who hurt you knows they hurt you. Yeah. Like, and knows that it was wrong. And, and it, you want to

know if they're sorry. Like, you just want to know. Like, you want to know. And you want to know why they hurt you. And, like, and I had this, I think my experience, because it was pitched in this, like, criminal justice system, very adversarial positioning. I had this idea. I had this idea. that if I tried to approach my, you know, my adversary, my prosecutor, my, he was like my white whale, my Mount Everest, you know, like, he was just this, like, this entity. A part of me thought, if I could just convince him that I'm innocent, maybe I'll be okay. Maybe I'll, I'll be okay, like, because I'm not okay. I'm not okay. I don't, like, this horrible thing took over my life. I, I survived, but like, I'm, I'm still just carrying this, the burden of someone else's crime for the rest of my life. Can I be okay? Can I just convince him? And if I can't, like, can I just get some understanding of why? Because I, I did. I did. deep down feel like he wasn't an evil person. Right. Like he wasn't evil in the way that the person who

murdered my roommate was evil. Right. And even like this person like I've, you know, since come to think like maybe he was like out of his mind on drugs. Like who knows what was going on? Like I've honestly not investigated him as much because I'm less interested in humanizing him. I'm trying to humanize everyone. But like let's start with who I can first. And so like I'm trying to I'm trying to do for my prosecutor what he did not do for me, which is give him the benefit of the doubt and and try to imagine a world in which he had good intentions. Right. And did not purposefully put an innocent 20 year old girl in prison. Right.

Okay. So let's begin from there. And so I wanted to do that, one, to do him justice because I did not want to commit the same kind of crime that had been committed against me. And I'm a deeply, deeply curious person. I was very, very curious to see what would happen if instead of approaching him in the way that anyone would expect me to. which was to, you know, shake my fist at him and and blame him and yell at him and be like, what the fuck? What if instead I tried to find common ground and I tried to find some kind of understanding and agreement with this person. Yeah.

And so that's what I set out to do. And at first I thought I would only be able to do this in person. Like, you know, you know how those like, I had this like idea in my head. You know how these two people just are in a room with each other, just looking into each other's eyes and like recognize their humanity. Like I wanted a moment like that. Yeah. And then the pandemic happened. Oh, God.

And so there was no face-to-face meetings happening at all. but weirdly that actually worked out in my favor because I just spent two years over the pandemic corresponding with this man and not necessarily demanding that he give me answers about the case more just allowing him to tell me what he wanted to tell me and being willing to share with him things about my life that I challenged myself to be okay with sharing with him. Like, you know, this is how I, this is how my family celebrates the holidays. Here's a picture of me and my sisters, like very just real human being kind of stuff. Yeah.

And over the course of that correspondence, we developed, I don't. don't know how to define our relationship. It is some kind of relationship. It's not exactly a friendship, although it is one that is based upon mutual trust and respect. There, I think that there are some i think that there are some things that we even like about each other we have there's some things that we have in common um he's also kind of a big nerd uh and so like he's a huge fan of lord of the rings um so you know like just these like weird little details and then and i think it meant it's it was the thing that surprised me and i think is a valuable thing for people to consider. Just consider. I'm not saying that everyone

should do this thing that I did. Well, yes. But I was shocked by the number of positive things that resulted from my approach that I was not expecting. Wow. Like the fact that this man who at one point in my life was describing how I was taunting and torturing another young woman now turned around and said that I was the sweetest and most compassionate and nonviolent person that he'd ever met and and like who he genuinely likes and cares about. Did that allow you to unclench a little bit? Was there some release of something? I know you can't ever do it all the way. Your life was altered forever. There are people who will believe something that isn't true about you forever.

And I have my own experience with that, and it is nowhere near the same as yours. and it, like, sometimes if I let myself focus on it, I don't sleep for days. So I can't fathom that, you know, you would ever be able to say, oh, yeah, like, this thing helped me heal and I let it go. But I almost wonder even a little, you know, if, like, if it was this tight, if this thing that has shifted with your prosecutor has just given you like a little bit more space, or do you think what it's done is just reaffirm your own choice to be compassionate because

it does remind you that things you might have once thought impossible are possible? You know what it shifted for me? This feeling like this man had control over my life. That was the big shift. Wow. Was realizing like this man had like for the longest. time was this boogie man in my mind who had taken my life and molded it in his own nightmarish imagination and he had all of this power over me. That's what it felt like psychologically

was here was this person between me and my well-being was this person. Right. And that went away. When I finally was like, oh, he's just a person with all of the flaws that a person has he's just this this feeling you know irrational thing and and in a way like so vulnerable in my hand now wow he is not this big scary monster of a being he's just a dude he shrank in He shrank in his, like, in his scariness. And there was, he was no longer an obstacle between me and my self-actualization. Yes.

And. Wow, that's really profound. I did not expect that to happen. But, like, that, I think that is where I'm a firm believer of looking the thing that scares you in the eye. Because it is only once we turn around from the thing we're running from and look it in the eye, that it actually diminishes down to the size that it really is. And you can really, like, see what you have control over. And so, like, when I, you know, when I wrote free, I called it free because I have been chasing my freedom ever since it was stolen from me by this man.

Right. And it was only once arriving and meeting with him that I realized that he was not the barrier to me feeling free. it was me right and so I had I had to get to a place where I could affirm my existence that I could affirm my identity that I could yeah and I didn't need him necessarily to do that and so that's big that was a big thing that's big it was really big and so this is why I say like I don't necessarily recommend that everyone do what I did, but at least just like, hear it from me at the very least. Like, whoever you think is between you and your own self-actualization is not actually

the obstacle. Like, he's not. He's not. But I don't know that you could have right-sized him. I don't know that you could have shrunk him back to his human self from this boogeyman's self if you hadn't confronted him. Right. And everyone's going to have their own path.

Everyone's going to have their own journey. But I do believe that on the road to healing is recalibrating the size of your obstacles to get in touch with your own size, your own power. And it makes me really curious as a fellow language lover, which means a fellow story lover, I think about the fact that, you know, you've written these two beautiful books, you advocate for people, you use your story as something, and it's now becoming a narrative story in my world. It's coming to screens. And you've executive produced the series for our friends at home. It's called The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox. It's coming out on Hulu, August 20th. And I'm so thrilled that it's from you. Me too. And I wonder, you know, I wonder what it was like from this wiser place where you can hold more space for yourself and other people and even this man, where you have had to learn to live with the fact that there will be people who will never believe you. and that is like an open wound, how did you choose to go back?

Do you think serializing it and allowing people to see it and allowing people to watch what happened to you happen? Does that also in a way feel like you're writing yourself another permission slip to be free? Totally. And I think one thing that I think is going to be, really important for people coming into this series to know is that it is very intense. Just as a heads up, I'm really proud of this thing that we've created. Me and Monica and the rest of the crew together have created this very, very powerful and

important, valuable, beautiful thing. Yeah. And it is, it is very thoughtful. it is very purposeful. It has, it, it, it's interest is in humanizing these extreme stories and experiences and unpacking them and understanding them and also doing justice to what really happened. Yeah. And what really happened was very, very bad.

Like, it's going to be really hard to watch. I hope that in seeing it, I think seeing it makes it real for people in ways that me just describing it is different. It has a different impact. Like Grace Van Patten, who plays me, is an amazing actress. And she has so fully embodied this young person who had everything going for her until the world fell apart. Like, she has really, really brought that to life in a way that I think is, I think she should get all the awards for because the amount of work that she has put in to do this, do this, to do this thing. Yes. um is insane and i there are things that i'm accomplishing in this that i that i really care about

like i want people to know what happens in interrogation rooms i want yes know what happens in a prison cell i want people to know what happens in a courtroom because a lot of us do not have these experiences and yet we have this sense of entitlement to judge people who have these experiences so I want to counterbalance that. And then on the flip side of that, just from a human standpoint, like, stories are an incredible thing because they're a way of taking what matters and keeping it alive. And that includes Meredith. That includes me.

Yeah. That includes. the life that she and I could have had before she and the truth were buried. Yeah. Like, that's why we tell stories because the truth matters and because the people who have lived them matter. Yeah. And so all of this to say that it's, I'm, I feel really fortunate and grateful to be, have this

role. Yeah. Because someone like me normally does not get to do this. Typically, our stories are told without our consent and without our cooperation. And they're often taken from you in that way again. To be made a story to be treated like a character rather than a person is a, it is a repeated violation of yourself. And I am so overjoyed, which is a weird thing. It's a weird word to choose for subject matter like this, but I am overjoyed for you that you get the chance to take it back and that you get not only the chance to take it back, but that you get to alchemize this really horrific thing by telling the truth about it into information that people can experience, that they can have a dialogue with that could shape public understanding of

wrong convictions that could chip away at that bullshit idea that innocent people don't go to prison that that can illuminate the fact that most people who have experiences in the criminal justice system do not have experiences with Olivia Benson on SVU. Right. And I say that as a person who, you know, it's one of my favorite shows of all time and I got to work with Mariska on it for a long time. I know why those heroes matter to us, but more often than not, we are in those spaces in life, that's not the person you encounter.

And so I feel hopeful for you that the series will not just change the narrative around your case, but that it will help us ask better questions about the system in general. Here, here. We'll be back in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors. on the precipice of this coming out and it it's making me think about what you spoke about earlier finding purpose if not um positivity in your work in in prison while you were there in the ways that you could help others do you do you feel that same sense of purpose with this, or has the amount of work and creativity, even though you have to rehash painful things,

has it also been able to be positive or joyful as you've gone through it? So, yes. So in a same way that, like, in prison, at a certain point, you just look around and go, what do I have to give? Coming out of prison, I constantly, am feeling the same way. Like, what do I have to give? What do I have to offer here? And this feels like something that I have to offer. I've really, really thought and felt deeply. And I feel like the things that I have learned in the process of thinking and feeling deeply about what happened have led me to valuable insights that I want to share with people. Yeah. And then on the flip side, Like one thing that really I did not, again, I did not expect, but when you throw yourself wholeheartedly and commit to a project, be it meeting face to face with your prosecutor or, you know, executive producing a show about the worst experience of your life, there I have always found myself encountering unexpected challenges, but also unexpected blessings.

Like, for instance, the ability to say goodbye to things that I didn't have the opportunity to say goodbye to before. Yeah. You know, I was on set and at a certain point, you know, they built perfectly. They recreated perfectly our apartment to, like, from the footage, like, Everything, the notes that were written on the refrigerator, like everything was exactly as it was. And my showrunner, who's just so thoughtful, KJ, she was like, hey, do you want some time alone in here? And so, you know, while they're off, you know, filming something else, I just got to, like, sit in my apartment one last time. yeah and the last time I got to do that was you know the last time I was there was when we discovered a crime scene so like I never I never got to say goodbye I never got my stuff back like I never like they were there was to the point where like they had put socks on the drying rack and I was like those are my socks and I felt like this tremendous impulse to like take my stuff back home with me and they even like

gathered a few of the things and and package them up so that I could finally take them home with me. Yeah. So like being able to just like say goodbye to something. Yeah. But I never thought that I would get the opportunity to say goodbye to and to like honor this, this experience of being, sharing a home with these young women. Like, yeah.

I didn't get to do that. And then surprisingly, I did. And so I had like. some very you know very high quality immersion therapy that i don't think anyone was really and then the people thought it was part of the project but there it was that's really beautiful i mean it it allows you to tap into something that's so primal and so human about ritual and when so much of what you must have thought before all of this would be the ritual and rhythm of your life never would be to go back.

I mean, it almost is like the first question I asked you if you could, you know, bend space time essentially. If you could go backwards for a day and you got to go backwards. And I would imagine that it was incredibly healing, like in your body. It was. And to your point that, like, we don't have these rituals in our society to, like honor and grieve the lives that we had before life hit us like before the future came and and struck and became the present like yeah i have a lot of grieving that i've been

able to do in the process of creating this work yeah that i'm so so grateful for um because otherwise that grief is just like a clenched fist in your body and so like there is there is especially in the making of this there has been a feeling of like oh just release and like okay i also think that's such a a gift for us about the way you choose to share i think a lot of people are afraid of grief but grieving is actually such a joyous thing because because it's a release, it's what makes space for the good things, for the light to come back into your body, being, space, life. And I wonder, you know, now after all of this, you know, your face lights up when you talk about your life, your family, your daughter, you know,

finding all of that, you know, the quote-unquote picket fence, happy ending. Totally. Is it something that you find that you think about differently than you thought you would before? Oh, certainly. Oh, certainly. Because I'm hype. You know how I mentioned my weird little PTSD response of like every. Yeah, hypervigilance or like just the fear. Yeah. Like it's hard for me to just experience positive things in my life just positively. Right. Like have, it hasn't stopped me. from you know having a family and having children but like as soon as these good things are such an integral part of my life I can't help but be afraid of them being taken from me and so that's where that like weird twitch response happens and I have to my my practice now is in acknowledging the twitch and acknowledging that there's like that's not a crazy thing to think. It is not crazy to be so in love with your child and to be utterly terrified that something bad would happen to them. Like that is a normal and rational thing to think. And it's not the only thing. It is a thing. And it is a thing that makes you hyper aware of just how precious all of it is because it's all happening right now. And so do

not be distracted. That I feel is the feeling that I feel deep, deep, deep in my bones is that uncertainty is the principle of the universe. Impermanence is the principle of the universe. I don't know what is going to happen. And so I just have to hold on to what matters to me while I can. And that's all I can do. But it's beautiful. And the thing is, know it in a way most people will not but it's true for everyone you know it's a it's a lesson that you get to share with us and maybe that's it you know maybe working on feeling the response and then acknowledging that the fear is okay and normal and you're allowed to pick the other things as your area of focus you know your daughter's laugh your enjoyment of being with her and

in your home and with your partner and all these things. Does that, do you think that is your work in progress right now? Or because you are in this moment where even more is getting free, is the work in progress something on the horizon line, something that feels like a newer practice? I mean, the new, the work in progress for me is yes, that like juggling all of those immense feelings at once it's almost like pre-grief like the grief of knowing that like something that you have in this moment is going to go away eventually like I feel a lot of pre-grief now and that's okay because like I don't want to it's not like an alarm bell going off like if it was an alarm bell going off and I started feeling panicky and and clingy and like grasping at something that I know I can't hold on to forever, that would be a negative way to

experience it. Instead, it's just like the pre-grief reminds me to really appreciate the thing while I have it. And so that is, that is the work in progress is like making that the right balance. And then of course, it's the balancing life, career, ambitions, creative ideas. Like, I feel like I have a lot coming out of me right now because I have been processing and like there's there you know these two moments in your life you're either in your receiving and processing mode or you're in your like producing mode and right now I feel like I have I've been such fertile ground that has processed and and and ground up and like churned through all of this like really rich dark material and now I have it all come. I have like all of these green shoots sprouting out of me. And so I'm like,

what's going on? Yeah. You've literally, you've been in that chrysalis experience. You've composted. Yes. And you're making all new nutrient rich life. How beautiful. Yeah, it's a great place to be in. Yeah. I'm really happy for you. Thank you. Congratulations on, you know, on the books. And congrats on the show. I can't wait to rehash it once it's out. Yeah, I can't wait for you to see it. It's amazing. I'm excited.

Well, thank you for joining me today. This has been wonderful. Thank you. This is an IHeart podcast.