Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Don Lemon

Episode Date: August 27, 2025

Don Lemon is an award-winning journalist, bestselling author, and one of the most influential voices in American media. Known for fearless storytelling and unflinching conversations about politics, culture, and identity, he’s now reinvented himself in bold new ways. In this conversation, Don opens up about resilience, his new YouTube series/podcast “The Don Lemon Show” and the power of queer joy. Plus, Don talks candidly about what led to his leaving CNN and gives his take on Trump’s intimidation efforts against mainstream media.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hi, friends. Welcome back to Work in Progress. You're a resident journalism school, Gurley, has a guest today that has me just so immensely excited. Today I'm going to sit down with Don Lemon. He is an award-winning journalist, a best-selling author, and one of the most influential voices in American media.

I've always respected Don for his fearless storytelling. He's covered pivotal historical moments and incredible shifts in society with such grace and such ethics. He's pushed boundaries and delivered thought-provoking conversations on everything from politics to culture to social issues. And a few years ago, he got clickbait canceled and has reinvented his life and stood up for himself and who he is and what he believes in and managed to find incredible joy along the way. And I want to talk to him about his career, his resilience, his love with his husband, his book, and his new show, the Don Lemon Show, which is available wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. I absolutely love it. I want to ask him what it's like to continue being who he is in all these new spaces, places, and mediums.

And of course, we are going to talk about queer joy. Let's dive in with Don Lemon. Don, it's so nice to see you. Good to see you, Sophia. You look fantastic. Do I? What are you doing? I'm in love and happy, I think.

Yeah? I hear it's good for the skin. I know. I'm waiting for you, though. Oh, I know. You're ready. You want me to really pull the trigger. I do.

I did last year. It was last year. Last year. You're in April. Oh, congratulations. I didn't know that. Thank you. I never thought I'd get married ever in a million years.

Really? Yeah. It wasn't possible for me. It's really interesting. Well, that's, oh, I want to dig into that. I will humorously say, because our list. I would imagine know all my things. I've tried it, and it didn't work out so great.

And then I thought, maybe that's not for me. And then, you know, I had a big life revelation and was like, yeah, never say never. We'll see what happens. I may have heard about that revelation. We'll still see what happens. Why did you think you would never get married? Was it just the legality pre? It was a legality.

And also it was, you know, back in the day, I'm a little older than you. You just didn't talk about those things, you know? Yeah. He was always like a roommate. Oh, my roommate is going to. come to thanksgiving and they're like oh don's friend is coming yeah um your best friend yeah but i just thought it wouldn't be possible and then it was so weird because my mom walked me down the aisle and as soon as i've walked out i didn't see her um i walked out to meet her and as soon as

she looked at me she started crying and i started crying and the whole way down the aisle we were just bawled and i could not believe it but yeah i thought it wouldn't be possible but you know you never know right anything's possible that's really beautiful yeah thank you And what made you decide last year was the time? Well, he proposed in 2019 on his birthday. I thought he was joking. Oh. He came into the bedroom.

You were his birthday present? Yeah. I'm immediately in tears. Oh, my God. No, I'm a sap. That is so sweet. I don't have this is, this is, I have another ring that's in the, it's being fixed. But I want, I said, if I ever told him.

I'm going to say, if I ever get married, I want a big diamond ring. And he comes in, seriously. And he's, I'm in bed. And he said, oh, you know, we have to go get manicures. We've got to do it. And I said, okay, if you're a birthday, we can do whatever you want. We can get a manny pettie, whatever. And then go have breakfast.

I said, okay, so I'm, you know, I'm a late sleeper. And so he walks in, and the dogs are with him. And he gets down on one knee. And then the dogs, he goes, read the dog collar. And I said, what? And then I looked at the dog collar on both of our dogs and it said, it says, Daddy, will you marry Papa? And I looked at him and I'm like, you're so crazy.

And then his lips were trembling like, and I went, oh, you're serious. Because I started laughing at him. I'm like, oh, you're serious. And then he like opens up this big ring and I'm like, holy. It was real. And so anyway, I'm making a long story longer. And then so COVID happened We started planning and COVID happened

And it just sort of fell to the wayside And we're like, you know There are more important things in the world Not that this is not important But we felt like we were married already Yeah And then we said you know what He said we have to make this official

And I now want to do it We wanted to do it in a church We got married by the U.S. ambassador To the UN like I want it legal And church God and law and everything And family and so we did the whole traditional thing with the night before dinner and it was really, really, really great.

It does make a difference. You feel different. I'm so happy for you. Yeah, so I can't wait for you. So this is a really interesting through line because whenever I sit across from somebody, I think about what the world knows of you, you know, your career, your profile, the people who follow your work. And I always like to know about who people were before they were a household name. And the question I love to ask feels even more poignant understanding for your identity and mine, really.

Yeah. The shifts that have happened in our lifetime. Yeah. Because my question for my guests is always if you could bend the spacetime continuum and meet up with your younger self as a kid. I mean, eight, nine, ten-year-old Don. Would you see yourself in him? and when we think about this shift towards permission of full expression, do you think that little boy already knew?

No. Really? I don't think he knew. I think it's a couple of things. I think that that little boy was kind of afraid, not kind of afraid, was afraid because I knew what I was. I've always known what I was. And not, you know, kids don't know, they're not sexualized in that way, right?

But you know, like, oh, I had a crush on boys and all those things. So the biggest thing for me, the biggest thing for me, obstacle that I had to overcome as a kid was knowing that I was gay. Everything else was, you know, just I was a child. It was just childhood. I was living in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And, like, just, I think I had a storybook childhood. being in the country, barefoot, hot as hell in the summer, muggy. You could smell the tar.

The tar on the roof would bubble, but you would just run around. We would climb trees and do swings, you know, and go swimming in the lakes. It was just really great. But the only thing that was the gay thing. And so I did not know. And so I sort of carried that what I thought was a stigma around for decades until, you know, until I was 30. I didn't come out until I was 50 years old. No, I was like, what, 20?

Yeah. I was, well, in my 40s. In your 40s? In 2011, I didn't come out publicly. But everyone, my family and my friends knew. Sure. But I didn't tell the public until I wrote it in a book in 2011. So I don't think that I would just go and hug that child and tell him it's, it's, everything's going to be okay.

Or I would just smile and not say anything and just sort of look at him from a far. say you're going to be okay. I'm not going to worry about you because I know in the future you're going to be okay. Yeah. Yeah. As a kid, were you this fascinated with the world and eloquent? Were you a bookworm? I wasn't a bookworm, but I was always bright. It was always clever. I was smart enough that I could do my homework on the bus just on the way to school, right? Yeah, make all the other kids jealous and get an A. Yes. Except for math. You know, and it's weird because then later, once I applied myself to do math, I was like, math is not so hard.

You just have to sit down and like really do it. But maybe I had some sort of, I wonder if I had, you know, had ADHD or something as a kid because it was hard to hold my intention. Like everything in me now is like, don't look at this phone. And I know I don't really care what's on it.

But you know what I'm saying? Yeah, because once you're, once you're in it, you're down the rabbit hole. Right, you're down the rabbit hole. Or like, you know, to look at that monitor. I'm like, wait, is that something on TV or like, so that is a kid. I was always like, you know,

you could easily just. distract me. It was easily distractible. And so I think that's, you know, and that's why I couldn't sit down and do math. But, yeah, I mean, I, I would, was I always eloquent? Yeah, I was a good writer. He was a good speaker. I'm always curious if people like yourself see versions of themselves in their, in the kids that they were. You know, if you, even the fact that you can point out that you were always very well spoken, that you were a good writer. those things track to me in terms of how you wound up becoming such an amazing journalist, such an amazing advocate. I think it's neat to figure out where all your little seeds were

planted along the way. Yeah, but you don't, it's hindsight. Yeah. Oh, only. Yeah. Only. I mean, I think about that in so many places, spaces, times in my life, you know, when I was like white knuckling to try to get through something and then finally said, what am I doing this for? I can look back and say, oh, I knew two years before that I shouldn't have done that. Or, you know, now I think about science. You know, this is my nerdy stuff. I was like a space baby kid who always wanted to understand outer space. And when I think about invisible string theory or theories of time, you know, now that I'm that I'm in love with the woman I'm in love with, I think I was always supposed to be with her. But I knew her for years and never saw it. Really? Like I didn't, she was just my cool friend. I

didn't see it till I saw it. And now looking back, I go, oh, maybe there was a reason that I always felt so comfortable around her. Oh, maybe there was a reason that we bonded over, you know, activism for women. And then we're always on these chats together. Or we'd always start a group chat with each other's number first if we needed to rally a bunch of people for a cause. Like, oh. Yeah. But I didn't get it at all. And then it sort of like smacked me in the face. and I was like, oh my. Pay attention. Pay attention.

Be mindful and in the moment. We don't realize those things. Yeah. Well, and I think be, you know, be a little open to letting your life happen to you. Yeah. I don't know if there were, I guess there were signposts, but I wasn't, I didn't know for sure

because, you know, you're just not mature enough as a child. So I, you know, the little things that you were, worry about, I guess it was always there. The thing that I think that throws people off is when you try to be something for someone else, when you try to be someone else's version of yourself. And so if I had just, and I did, I went away from it for a while, but then there are always things that push you back. The universe will push you back if, you know, if you take the wrong course. Yeah. And so I was like, I want to be, I want to be a lawyer like my dad. And so then I went and I said, I'm going to do economics, going to do these things. And I was like, hey, hey, hated it. And it wasn't until you asked me if I was curious. I was always curious as a kid, always asking questions. Like it's tough for me not to ask you questions right now. You can't. I'm open to it. Have you asked me questions. So yeah, there were signposts, but I didn't know. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know. And just like, you know, when you, if you, even when you're older, if you sort of, if you change careers or you sort of move into a different aspect of your

career, like you don't know. And you're, you know, you're afraid of it. But then it's always, I think the universe is like a, it's like a railroad track. It always kind of guide you into where you're supposed to go. Or like bumper cars. Yes. So sometimes. So I've been smashed by a bumper car too. But that's really interesting that you say that.

I had a similar thing. I always thought I wanted to be a doctor. Wanted to be a heart surgeon. That was going to be my thing. And then I had an arts requirement in school and I had to do a play. And then I realized plays were books come to life. And English was my favorite subject. And maybe theater would be.

be cool. And then I decided I wanted to go to theater school. You can imagine how well that went over in my home. My parents were like, what, what? Medical school plays? What? And then I went to theater school and it felt to me at the time, I think, you know, being 18 and being in this very expansive phase in life, I felt really reduced by the fact that I was only studying one thing. And so I transferred into the journalism school at USC. Yeah. And. And, and? And, and, and, it was the balance I needed because how to find and tell a story and how to honor the people whose stories you were telling in the real world made me viscerally a better actor. And then everybody was saying, oh, well, you've transferred into the journalism school,

so you want to be a news anchor. And I was like, I don't think so. I think I still want to be an actor. Yeah. But maybe eventually I'd want to be a news anchor. And this didn't exist yet. Podcasting didn't exist yet. Yeah.

And now I get to do both. And it's my favorite thing. You know what's weird? I took an acting class. You did. And it really helped me. It helped my journalism. It helped me as a broadcaster.

Because the acting coach said, just go with it. Like, just be in the moment and go with it. And don't be afraid to silence. Because it's very powerful. And I said, yeah, you know, you're right. And I started watching all of the really great, and not necessarily, news broadcasters are the worst. They hate dead air.

Yeah. But actors and some radio folks, right, they don't hate dead air because they know that there's a power there. And so I would start watching folks like that. And I'm like, you know, they're right. And so I would take pauses, you know, not strategically, but I was just slow down on the air. And then just whatever I was feeling, I would go, you know,

I would look at what's on the script. or what was written and what was on the teleprompter. And I go, you know what? Let me just level with you guys for a minute. I don't know what's going on. This is the effing craziest thing that I've ever seen.

Nothing like this in my years on earth is whatever. And I would just start talking to the audience and then boom. You know, prime time show, blah, blah, blah. Because you were being a human. Because I was being a human. And sometimes I'm too much of a human on the air

and it gets me in trouble. But, you know, that's okay. I think that's why. we like each other. Yeah. I have been told versions of the same. You can't be so vulnerable. You can't be so open.

You can't be so political. Yeah. Yeah. I disagree. I think we need more of that now. I think we need people, especially in this moment, we need people to stand up and not be afraid of.

And I want to be in the marrow of it. Yeah. I want to be where we're connected and cellular and together and human, not performing, you know, in a suit and tie from the neck up. I hate that now. Yeah. I'm so happy where I am now. I hate it like with all of the makeup and the,

okay. God, I love, I love like sitting in my home studio and talking to people and having them like relate and having them love me being in the home studio. Yes. We'll be back in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors.

Okay, I want to talk to you about this because, and I'm going to be vulnerable with you. I'm going to tell you a couple of things. Yeah. You know, when we first met years ago in D.C., I was like, oh, my God, Don Lemon knows me? Like, I just was so, I was like, he is so cool. I can't believe this.

You said something so sweet to me. We were all in like our, you know, our fancy dress for the correspondence dinner. And then when your whole observational moment, I'll call it, happened on the air at CNN, I remember doing the thing I always encourage people not to do. I saw the headline and I went, what the f***? I was like, even him. And I was so bummed about it. And then I checked myself and I watched it and I went,

you are making a systemic observation about the way our world functions. And you are calling out this inappropriate ageism that a woman is participating in when she knows what it feels like not only as a woman in her midlife but as she also knows what it feels like to be a woman of color no matter what she changes her name to and you're pointing this out as a man in your midlife who is also a man of color who is also a publicly outman and you're talking about the intersection of how fucked up judgment is yeah but you got clipped and clickbaited everybody put their judgment on me and yeah I it was a moment that reminded me even in myself, don't get mad when you see the headline because the headlines

trying to make you mad, investigate. You're a trained journalist. You know this. And I said as much to someone. I tend to, as an activist, get a lot of feedback. You know how that feels. And there were quite a few people that were like, can't believe you still follow this person and, you know, using the misogyny term a lot. And I don't respond to strangers on the internet. I'm not insane. and one person just really got under my skin, and I did. And I said a version of what I said to you. And I was like, here's what the full scope of the story is. We should be relieved that a man is advocating for us this way on the internet.

And we bought this clickbait, hook line, and an embarrassing sinker. And it was like a very cool moment because I later got a response from this woman who said, I went and watched the interview. I'm also ashamed of myself. Yeah. And I just, I tell you all of that, because I don't want to hide that I was also a bit of a judgmental asshole that day. It's okay, though. But I, I'm used to it.

I looked. Yeah. How did that feel in the moment? Because clearly the clipped quote became the runaway train. Yeah. Well, how did you process that in the world, but also just in yourself? Well, it couldn't be what people were thinking. It couldn't be further away from who I am.

especially as the only boy and a family of all women. And I know what women have to deal with. And during that interview, I said, I'm not saying I believe that, but no one writes that. No one listened to that part. I'm not saying I believe that. But, and there were other things going on at CNN that, you know what I mean.

Sure. Oh, gee, drama behind the scenes in a network. I wouldn't know anything about that. Drama behind the scenes and competition and, you know, that kind of thing. And so I just, it was tough because at first I was like, wait, I'm not, you guys understand what I'm saying, don't you? And they're like, well, no, you just, it sounds this way. And I said, but I'm telling you what I'm saying. And basically I was trying to make the point that you were making and standing up for older people.

Because you're being agist. Why are you doing this when you know how society has treated you and sees you as a woman? And so anyways. And then so the thing is, is that I know her. took the bait and she used it and her and raised money off of it and I was like wow I've seen quite a few people take a lie yeah and turn it into flip it into and she knows me benefit she could have called me and said hey what were you saying yeah I've had that happen too yeah and did not and did not do it but it was so um how did it feel someone can ride the wave to get the kind of press they've never

gotten before yeah I think it takes a person who's very in a practice of therapy or whatever else divest them from their ego not to take that bait. And clearly she was not. But it was also the universe telling me I didn't need to be there anymore. Yeah. That it was time for me to move on. And not that you're bigger than any one company, but sometimes you are. Sometimes what you need to do is bigger than what you're doing in that place.

I also think, and listen, I left a job once. And it's unheard of for an actor to quit a job. And I quit a job. Yeah. And people were like, what are you doing? And it could have been a place I stayed forever and that I benefited from. But what I hear and what makes me feel seen and what you are willing to discuss with the public about this stuff is that sometimes you have to know you are worth more than whatever room you've made it into, that who you are is more meaningful than what you do or where you do it. And I think sometimes, whether you get the sign and, you know, you went through being pushed out of an environment, I went through leaving an environment.

But the thing I think we both share is that our jobs lost us. Yeah. And when you said that about reflecting on your experience, I was like, that is the confidence. I want to walk through the world in because it is scary to make a change in any way. and you chose to stick to who you are and you made a change and you look happier. Like you said to me when you walked in here,

you were like, girl, you look good. I was like, I'm happy. Yeah. But it also doesn't mean that the new place that you're in it's not challenging and that it's not tough. But I don't know. I'm just happier and lighter and I don't have to deal with the politics of it

and, you know, hanging on to something that people just hang on to because they think it's the best thing. for them and they'll never do anything else. And none of that is true or real. That's, you know, the devil is a liar. Well, and fear is a liar. Fear is a liar.

That's what I mean by the devil. Fear is a liar. With the shift for you, the new career path that's very much more in your own control, how do you grapple with this stuff? How do you figure out how to talk about it? How do you do what we're doing, which is be as real and honest as possible and also leave people with some hope

well I don't have to self-edit anymore I don't have to worry like say more about that well when I was on CNN I had to self-edit everything because I represented 4,500 other people

or so in the company right and I represented a brand a major brand okay news brand company and so I would say is this going to get me in trouble. How's this, you know, this is going to end up, like, this is all going through your mind. Yeah. What are they going to say about this on Fox News? And how is, you know, how, how are the conservative, how is the conservative media going to spin this? And what are my

boss is going to think? And someone's going to think I'm too left or someone's going to think I'm too right. Someone's going to say I'm being too soft in the center. Yeah, yeah, all of that, right. And so I don't have to do that now. So I believe that the thing that will win out in the end, like I believe the folks who are going to carry us through aren't the politicians. It's going to be the artists that are going to help us to get on the other side and the pendulum to swing back in the right direction. And I think the folks who are independent journalists who just sort of speak the truth and speak their minds and don't necessarily put a governor on like, oh, I got to slow down and whatever. I say what I screw up. I say, you know what? I really didn't mean that. I apologize. That was wrong. And that's how human beings treat each other. Gee, modeling humanity. Yeah, and so I don't let my critics define me. I no longer do that, but a lot of folks who are in traditional media do that. So, and then I offer people hope because my saying is, oh, people be knowing.

So I've gone through this, something similar to this a number of times, not as much as my mom, who is 80, who has lived through a lot of different administrations and has seen a lot of change in the world. seen a lot of change in the world. And I know when we go through tumultuous times like this, when there's so much gyration and everything, in the stock market and politics and everything, there's something on the other side that is getting us to, that is much calmer, much more effective and much simpler. Progress is not just straight linear or doesn't just go straight up, right? It's jagged. Yeah. Right? When people say one step forward, two steps back, well, sometimes it's one step forward and sometimes it's four steps back. But then eventually you do move.

move forward. And so I believe, I do believe in my heart of hearts that something good will come out of this. And so it's like, I think unless we start to really tell it like it is within our own communities and across communities so we can coalition build. Because like, I need your men to show up for us. You and I need all the people out there in hetero relationships to show up for us because when they turned over Dobbs and then said they wanted to come for Oberfelsge and then Clarence Thomas had the nerve to say loving should be reexamined I'm like bro yeah the ultimate rules for thee but not for me how is this freedom what are we talking about and they're coming for us whenever they say we're going to send it back to the states

that means they're coming for you if if your rights change state to state on a road trip there is no America right period and your story. Right. Like, that's just it. You don't have rights if they change state to state. And that is so crazy to me that we haven't settled this as, I can't even say it's a debate, just as, as, as humans.

Yeah. Like. There's no debate. But I think that we haven't settled it because, again, I hate to keep, you know, dumping on the media, but it's because they normalize these things. That's what I wanted to ask you about. They normalize these things. and it's false equivalence.

Why are we having a conversation about whether Donald Trump is taking a plane from the Qataris, if that is legal? It's illegal. Period. Period. Period. It's illegal. Why do you have someone on arguing that, well, it's, you know, with the Statue of Liberty,

it's like that is the dumbest that I've ever heard. Why are we doing this? And they're doing it about everything. About everything. About everything. But they don't have the person who is either a centrist or a liberal. They don't promote those people. and they don't allow them to be able to, like, you know, do their thing as they do with the crazy mega conservative person.

Okay, can I ask you a question? Because I think I know the answer, but, you know, you don't work for a news network anymore. So you can confirm or deny. Are they eroding truth, fact, and the law because the outrage and the clickbait of the what aboutism and the both sides pattern, they're falling. into is good for their ratings and their pockets? The answer is yes. Very simply. It's good for it. And also, the person who is in Washington in the White House right now has huge sway over what business gets handled in Washington, what gets FCC approval, and what businesses can be merged or acquisitioned and all of those things, and they don't want that messed up.

They want their deals, their business deals to go through, so they don't want to piss off the Trump administration or Donald Trump or he'll say, I'm not doing that. And he did it. He did it. He did it once. He doesn't abide by the law. He is punitive, but he did it once. And I was, I lived through it. You know, old people be knowing. I lived through it when AT&T and Time Warner merged. And Donald Trump tried to stop it. As a matter of fact, he delayed it for a long time. And then I guess, you know, after a while, they had no choice but to go through because they jump through all the hoops. But they don't want that to happen again. And so they're just going to get rid of the person who is that mouty person who's downstairs at the anchor desk are going to go

get rid of them. Yeah. Or they're going to say, we're going to settle. Are they going to get rid of the head of news, as you know, what's happening? Are they're going to get rid of the person who is over this particular program? Or are they going to, you know, fire some news anchor, a settled, settled a lawsuit that they would probably win in court because they just don't make waves. But to bend the knee in advance is to cede hard-won rights for people. So what do you think now that- In a profession that's protected under the First Amendment. Exactly.

These supposed First Amendment people, it's like so embarrassing how sensitive they are. Aside from the fact that it's deeply illegal to be behaving like this, I'm also just like, you'll call us snowflakes. You could never. You could never handle my DMs. You'd be crying in the corner having a panic attack, you losers. Who is it I heard that said that you call us snowflakes, but yet you are triggered by a rainbow t-shirt on aisle 13 in Target?

It's like, really? Give me a break. And now for our sponsors. I will say something that really made me giggle when, you know, I realized who I was so madly in love with. A bunch of people, you see this every year, right, for pride people. Like, the rainbow t-shirt's not going to make your kid gay, but, and they, like, plug in someone's performance. And somebody did like, but Sophia Bush and John Tucker must die, so via Bush and easy.

And now Sophia Bush and her World Cup winning girlfriend will. And I just was like, honestly, it's been my honor to serve for the last 20 years, guys. Thank you so much. I'm thrilled about it. We need the joy. Like, we, you know, it's like people are just going to be who they are. What's so crazy to me is that in a world that is so hard for a lot of people, anybody's mad about people being in love.

Like, we're so cute with our people. Yeah. Like, it's crazy to me that anyone is bothered. And it's been crazy to me my whole life again, because I grew up where I grew up. I grew up around artists. Can I tell you something? We talk about this all the time. Especially after the pandemic, we know so many heterosexual couples, married couples, that called it quits.

Every single gay couple we know, still together. Still together, doing surrogacy. I want to have kids. Sending their kids to the best school, sacrificing things so that their kids can have the best. And, you know, for couples that, well, you know, if you want to have a kid, okay, let's go in there and do it. But for me, you know, you got how hard we have to work. You have to work in order to have a kid, right? And but, but, you know, I don't know that much about your life,

but I see your social media and I know you're, you know, your partner. And you have a cute, beautiful life. My husband and I, we drive an SUV. We have three dogs. They're always in our social media. We love to cook for people. We put our meals and stuff online. We spend lots of time with our family.

We were at family graduations, a couple of, I mean, we are just normal people. And our lives are probably more boring than our heterosexual friends. Well, one of my favorite things when they started saying they wanted to threaten marriage equality, one of like the sassiest, yummiest, you know, old people know things. Yeah. Old people will be knowing. Come on, Sophia. I know, but like, you know, I need to know what lines of the songs I can sing and what I can't. Like, I'm not trying to be ridiculous.

us. But like, one of my like gorgeous, sassy elder gays was like, oh, what, the straight people don't want us all to have a chance to be as miserable as they are. And I was like, listen, I mean, I love them. My straight friends are like, what do you guys? Why do you want to get married? What is wrong with you? You guys are crazy. And we're like, well, you're like, well, you're like, I don't know. I really like him. Hey, guess what? Well, I, and I always look at him and I go, tax breaks. Hey. You guys are getting the tax benefits. We're not. That part.

Yeah. And we didn't have for the longest. You guys are getting the socialism and we're not. And we're not. For the longest time, I was paying for, you know, the kids and I still am. Yeah. I'm paying for your kids to go to school. And happily.

And happily. Happily, by the way. It's all good. Yeah. We should. Again, you want to live in a society and not in like Joshua Tree off the grid? Yeah. Contribute.

That might be fun though. I mean, I wouldn't hate it. I do. I spend a lot of time alone in the woods now because I like it a lot. The joy makes me so happy And I'm not It's not lost on me Because you mentioned it earlier

You know you didn't publicly come out till 2011 You decided to do it in your book How did you decide how to do it And why did the book feel like the way? It was weird because I didn't think about it that much I think sometimes you just can't think We overthink things a lot So I was writing a book

about my journeys in journalism and, you know, sort of, sort of a memoir. This is an autobiography. I was way too young for that. And not, you know, necessarily did not have a big enough name to be able to do that. But it was, I guess, big enough for the New York Times and other folks to pick it up because the only people out, the only person on networked news that was out at that time was Rachel Maddow. Wow. And then so I just started writing the book. And then I came to the part where I moved to New York City. And I said, well, if I leave this out, then how do I, I'm not really being honest about it.

And I won't feel really good about myself. And am I going to look back on this and say that I missed an opportunity or that it was not authentic? It was inauthentic. And I said, you know what? I just have to be honest. I said, I moved to New York City. One, because of the racism.

And two, I wanted to be who I wanted to be. I would never have been able to be myself had I said. stayed there and I wanted to be out. I was gay and I didn't think I could do it. I could be out in Louisiana and I went to a city that would accept me. So and I just wrote about it and it was literally I don't know maybe on a page or two pages and that was it in the book and that's like the biggest thing that people picked up on. The biggest headline. The biggest headline and that sold a book and yeah I mean folks are like holy crap Don Lemon is gay and other people were like yeah and water is wet. But no one had come out. No one had come out. And Rachel Maddo, like, sent me flowers and

she was like the first person and she's like, you know, this is going to be good for you. And it really was good for me. I just think getting to be your whole self is everything. Yeah. You know? It is. And to your point, like, in whatever way, the personal life sells the thing. I wish I'd been able to do it in a book because everybody else made money off my news story, but me. But I was sort of like, why is everyone so fascinated with people's personal lives and not their careers, their volunteer work, their things? The news wants what's sexy, right? And for me, what was so surreal was to see the confluence of that tendency and also the misogyny. I thought I'd experienced it growing up on teen television in the early aughts.

Like, it could get any worse. And then I was like, it was really bad. It was really, really bad. I mean, look at what happened to Britney Spears. No, honestly, the fact that like I'm not in the corner chewing my hair is a miracle is a sentence my best friend says to me at least once a week. But the, by the way, not to say that she is. See, look how nervous we get. I'm like, oh my God, I mean that about me, not about her.

I love her. Anyway, it was terrible time. Look at what happened with when you think about how she was treated by the industry. That's what we were talking about. Yeah, we're taking up for her here. Yes, exactly. I just wanted to clarify. We're traumatized.

But it, you know, it was so interesting to me to see how much worse it could be when they could do it to two women. And when they got this gleeful thing, like they were outing me. And I was like, oh, you want me to be freaked out. All I'm going to do, since you've decided to take this from me, is go everywhere with her. I'm going to make out with her everywhere to the point of your nausea, because you'll be like, okay, it's enough. And I'm like, cameras around or not. I actually had a friend call me and go,

were you at Penn Station on Tuesday night? And I was like, yeah. And she said, my friend saw you and was like, I saw this couple just like kissing. It looked like a scene from a movie. They looked so in love, like waiting for the trains to come on the board. And they pulled apart. And I realized it was your friend Sophia and her girlfriend.

And I was like, oh, my God, I gave someone New York City Romcom from the train station. I love it. But it's like, I remember thinking to myself, oh, if you think you're going to make me hide, I'm going to be the most loud and proud human because I love her. And I'm the happiest I've ever been with her. And I don't know. It's so surreal to see that, to see that two pages of your book became the whole headline. But in a way, I wonder if it's because so many people need it. Oh, I wonder if we give people permission.

Yeah. But I realized then, I mean, think about that was, think about how long ago that was. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And we have moved. 14 years. Yeah. We have moved into, like we've, the advances that we have made over the last, what, 14 years or so, it's been incredible. I mean, look at marriage equality. There was no marriage equality when I came out. And I wanted to ask you this because I was worried, one of the big things is that I was going to lose my career, that my company, would fire me or you know just because you know people aren't watching you don the ratings are showing we got to get you out of here right or people would just reject me was that a concern for you no not at all and and this is the inverse so i will say i believe um i can't obviously say what it's like to be a man of color in the media but i know if i'm just looking at gender like women get treated so much worse than men about their love lives, their careers, everything, their age, everything. But where the misogyny flips for us is men think it's pretty hot when two women are kissing. Yeah, yeah. I was going to say that to you. If people see you kissing on a platform,

like some guys are going to be like, dude, that was hard. They're like, whoa. And if they see me, they may throw a beer can at me. And you never know. And by the way, there's some of that for us as well. Yeah. For sure. Homophobia is very real. But I think what was really interesting for me was to go, oh, you'll treat me so much worse, but you'll also kind of get off on it, which feels really icky. But also, you know, early aughts, Max, magazine I've had to deal with that before. I think some of the guys are good, too. I mean, the stuff that I've learned lately about.

Oh, my God. I know. All the guys who, like, hide who they are. I'm like, you would just be so cute if you were out. But that's for another day. I'm not rushing anyone else. But I think what's really interesting for me as well. And again, I don't know that I realize.

at the time, but I never shied away from playing any kind of woman, a bisexual woman, a straight woman, a queer woman. I've never not taken the job that I liked because of who my character was involved with. So, you know, I was kissing girls in the third movie I ever did and I have in and out of jobs for my whole career. And so it never, it wasn't really a worry for me because I'd never been given the message, you did this movie or you did this TV show, don't do that again. I never got that.

I have had some people, again, folks a little older than me who I think are used to the industry as it has been, not necessarily where it's going, say to me like, you might want to tone it down a little bit. Like, be happy, but you don't have to go everywhere together. And I'm like, oh, I'm about to become such a pain in your ass. I'm going to go everywhere, like on her back. Yeah.

Someone said that to me. Did they? Yeah. Your husband is everywhere with you. And I showed them pictures of straight couples. And I like, you know, such and such, they're always together. I said, you guys have little cute names for them, like Benefer and, you know, whatever. And it's just so.

Like, what is that? Yeah. What's a difference? And that's what I think people don't quite realize when people say, oh, well, what are kids going to think if there's two prince is kissing in a Disney movie someday, I'm like, well, they've seen the prince and the princess kiss in every movie ever and no one talks about it. No one's ever not asked a kid how their mom and dad are doing. It's okay to say, how are your moms? Right. Like, it's okay to include people. You're not losing anything. You've just always had everything. Yeah. And I think for me,

having been in on both sides of the relationship spectrum, I'm like, so if this relationship is the best one I've ever been in, you want me to talk about it left? No. And this whole thing, this whole indoctrination thing, like, this is indoctrination. And I said, you know what? I grew up in the South going to Catholic school and a Southern Baptist, missionary Baptist church. And I said, if that wasn't indoctrination, wouldn't you think if indoctrination was real, that that would have made me a heterosexual. And they're like, ooh.

If people could change who they are, we'd literally all be the same. Yeah. That would just be it. Yeah. And why do you care, though? I know. I know.

Why does it matter? Why does it matter? I don't care. Do you think looking back, coming out, finding the love of your life, being married, shifting into your own show

that is completely in your control as this is in mind? So we can say shit. And all the other words. that we were talking about earlier. Like, do you just feel in your life more and more yourself, more and more free? I do. I mean, I felt that way for a while, but now even more so.

Yeah. Because it's all me. I don't have to worry about anybody else. I don't have to worry about the boss and even advertisers. I get to pick the advertisers. Me too. I love it. Right.

And I get to pick them. And I get to, I'm like, you want me to, you. you know, say, hey, you need to buy such and such and such and such, send me a sample. If I like it. Because I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. And so I don't have to worry about, oh, my God, I'm going to piss off some advertiser. It's like, no.

If you don't want to advertise on my show, see. Don't need you. Yeah. I love it. I know. Is that crazy? I'm so glad we met. This is crazy.

Why don't we know we know each other? Well, now we know each other better. We only met, like, we met at the White House Correspondence Center. But weren't you on my show? Didn't you come on the show up for a doc or something you were doing? No. The embarrassing thing is at this point, I can't remember. Same.

Like, if I can look up a day or a photo, I go, oh, and it was for this. Oh, and you were wearing that. It immediately comes back. But now it's like, all of it's a little bit of a blur. Maybe, but I don't remember. Well, people say, you know, I was on your show for such and such and such and such. And I can't remember. But the thing is, is that what they don't realize is that when I was on for two hours a night for a long time.

And I would just sit in the chair and they would shuffle guests in and out. And so I would go, okay, what guest is this? Oh, you can't remember every four minute segment. Yeah. I have a thing and I wonder if you do too. I know this is from acting because my job is to memorize 10 pages of information

and all the subtext about the emotions and then throw it away the next day and do it again. Yeah. So it'll be gone and I'll be like, give me a where were we? What was that? And the minute it jogs my memory, the whole scene.

is back. And I'm like, oh, yeah, we were in Austin at the proper hotel and you had on a purple sweater. Oh, my God, and I was eating that club sandwich. God, that was good. I wish I could have another one. And people are like, oh, okay, Rain Man. Like, what's going on here? But it's back. And I would imagine you have a version of that where you can be like, oh, my God, it was the night of this and this crazy thing had happened. And we were running down the halls to get on the air to do the breaking news or whatever. But you need something to jog your memory. Yeah. How do you remember? Because I had the best, I would remember when I was in kid, when I was a kid and I would remember the entire school play.

Oh, yeah. And everybody's part. Oh, I know everybody's lines. And now I'm like, uh, give me that again. And maybe it's because I'm so used to notes and teleprompters or had been. But yeah. I also think it's different muscles. And I think you have to remember that the, the thing you did for three months when you were 16 was one quarter of one 16th of your life.

Right, right, right. Now in your 50s, when you're doing. 15 four-minute segments a night. It's like it's a blip on the radar. It's like what even is that? Yeah. So it's harder to remember, but I do think the memories are in there. No, but I mean, how do you memorize the lines?

Like I watched, I went to watch. I spent a lot of time with them. You do. And for me, particularly, you know, as an actor, you do a lot of ADR. So a lot of sound looping when the picture gets locked to make all the sound perfect with the engineers. So I learn dialogue like I learned songs. So I learn the rhythm of a scene and then it can change with my scene partner. But when I get the rhythm of it down, it's like I find the music and then I don't forget it. Like you will never catch me not able to remember all my

favorite hip hop from the 90s because like the rhythm of it is like in me. And so it's a similar journey as an actor. And funnily enough, the other night I was at an event and this country song from 1999 came on and I was a dancer in high school. And my senior project, because I had focused a lot on like hip hop and jazz, was to study country music in the history of line dancing. So there were like five country songs we learned these dances too. And one of them came on the other night at an event. And I was like, I know every word to this Brooks and Dunn song. What's happening to me? And all my friends we're like, who are you? Who is this woman?

And I was like, listen, I couldn't have picked it out of a lineup. But playing, I know this, and I will not line dance for you because I'm out of practice. But like, I remember a couple of steps still. We are absolutely over time. And I want to be respectful of your day. And I just looked at the clock and I'm mortified, but I'm having the best time. So I'm going to skip ahead because really we've talked about all these things. I didn't need the, I didn't really need it.

But I want to ask you my last in favor. question, which especially, given this conversation feels like so momentarily topical for you, everything seems and feels across this table great. As you're in this moment in your life and you look forward and you think about what you want to do and where you want to go, what feels like you're work in progress right now? Well, I mean, you know, one would think I would say. say, you know, my show and my career, but I really think it's home and family. Yeah.

Like I need to, I try to work on being more present. And, you know, I sit there and I go, oh, my God, this is, I go from appointment to appointment. It's like, and I have one in 10 minutes, right? That's okay. That's okay. But I go from one thing to the next. And then I have to take those little moments and sit there and go, you know what, if I were working in, you know, a traditional old school media, if I would do whatever, I would not be able

to sit here and spend all this time with my little dogs who only get such a small portion of our lives. We're only here for such a small portion of our lives. Or I'll say I would not be able to plan a dinner with my husband. And so I want to, I want to lean more into that because as a man of a certain age who never thought that they'd be able to get married, that he would be or I would be able to get married, I think that is perhaps the reason that I have been thrust in this position now is to lean more into my life and not necessarily like, oh, what am I going to do for a career? That all manages somehow to take care of itself. Yeah. Yeah, because you can quit a job, but more often than not people quit relationships. And when they should, you know, when it was not

necessary for them to be able to do it because they didn't work on it enough right yeah i think when you love your life you want to lean into it being present that's it that's it and listening more that's my work in progress i love that thank you so much thank you it was a real pleasure thank you thank you thank you This is an IHeart podcast.