Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Dylan Mulvaney

Episode Date: March 13, 2025

Content creator, actress, and now writer Dylan Mulvaney is reclaiming her narrative in her new book,"Paper Doll."Prepare yourself for an energetic, entertaining, and candid conversation between Dylan and Sophia, where no topic is off-limits! They share behind-the-scenes stories about the Elton John Oscar Party, discuss which 'Sex and The City' character they most identify with, and get real about issues like dealing with transphobia and allyship in 2025. Dylan also reveals why she felt now was the right time to open up about the parts of her transition she didn’t share on “Days of Girlhood”, the "beergate" controversy, and celebrating queer joy in her new book! "Paper Doll: Notes from a Late Bloomer" is available now! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hi, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to Work in Progress. I am so excited to sit down with one of my favorite personalities, comedians, storytellers, Girlies. Today, we are joined by Dylan Mulvaney. She is here to talk about her new book, Paper Doll, Notes from a Late Bloomer. In this book, Dylan pulls back the curtain on her life, from the It Girl Online lifestyle to witty and intimate reflections of her journey, both pre and post-transition, family, school, memories dealing with the internet, theater, manifesting being a Broadway diva, all of it. Today we are going to dig into the emotional journey of identity. We're going to

laugh quite a bit about how ridiculous life can be, and we're going to talk about why this book is a love letter to every single person who stands up for queer joy. Let's dive in with Dylan Mulvaney. Hey. Hi. I'm so happy you're here. But it's funny because I feel we did just see each other two days ago. We did.

But we didn't get enough air time. No. And that was also a bit of a whirlwind. It's such a great event. Yes. But tell the people. Overwhelming. Tell the people where we were.

So we were at the Elton John Hids Foundation Giant Academy Awards Fundraiser. Amazing. Gala. Dinner. Yeah. Chapel Roan. Oh, my God.

You've been to this before. Yes. How many times? Three maybe? Okay. I think this was my first one. I'm also really happy because I've been on a few podcasts lately where they're like, this comes out in five months, but this one will actually come out fairly soon so we can talk about it.

But that's because this is coming out. Because we're talking about my book and my book comes out next week and I'm so excited. I'm sending you the whole package that's going to be coming with my lush bath bomb and everything. but uh you love a bath bomb i'm upset do you take baths i should i can already take this ADHD is going to be kicking in for both of us pretty soon it's hard for me to sit in a bath i well yeah i think that i like to bring all my activities so i like a book i like to memorize lines in the bath i like to i do a computer but you can learn the hard way i've i've lost like maybe three phones in one laptop in the bathtub.

Dropped. Done. But you're alive? I'm here. Apple, that's the one thing that really got going is like if you, if it goes in, you're not going down with it. You'll survive. Yes.

Okay. It's a glowing endorsement, really. But I feel like my voice is kind of starting to give Sophia Bush a little bit after our night out on Sunday. I turned into a pumpkin and I don't know if it was the fact that I was wearing the biggest heels I've ever worn in my life. or if life has just been so intense, you know, in the current horror times that I'm emotionally exhausted. But once chapel was done, it was like I ceased being plugged into the battery

and I just, I shut down and I had to go to bed. You left. I was going to say, I didn't see you, but that was what was crazy about then a whole new group of people came because there was the after party to the party. And so it was like a whole new, but we had been there for hours and hours. And so that was a lot in a good way. It was. And we were at the same table. We had some really cute people with us. Cutey Patan. Hunter Duhan. So adorable. Michaela J. Rodriguez. An absolute queen. Oh, I love seeing her. It's always so fun to see Bobby. Oh, my God. Yes. And you, were you with, who's your co-worker that you were with? Oh, that was my manager. Yes. He's so cute and such, he's like my best friend and manager. Yeah. He's so lovely. And then Ashlyn and I were there and Renee.

our sweet friend Renee Stubbs came with us. And yeah, it was just a great night. We had a nice crew. You know what did bother me was that I didn't feel like people were lively enough for Chapel Rhone. I didn't see enough dancing. Like, people were in it, but I'm used to like thrusting my body for that H-O-T-O-G. There wasn't a ton of room to really get them. There wasn't a lot of room.

I felt like we were doing very tiny hand motions. But I will say it felt like watching queer history. Like, wow. them singing together. It was incredible. Unreal. And I was standing next to her dad for a while. And it was like watching him

kind of like take it in was really sweet. Yeah, we talked a lot about it on Monday after, you know, we were all kind of recapping the night. And watching the way Elton looked at her and watching the way she was looking at Elton, it felt, yeah, like such a historic moment across these generations. of queerness and activism and advocacy.

And I don't know, it made me really emotional. That was where the gays were. Like, we were in that room. And I saw chapel in 2023 at the Wiltern in L.A. And the only thing that I could compare it to was that scene in Rocket Man, where, like, everyone's doing the crocodile rock and everyone starts to float off the, you know,

like off their feet into the air. And that is how I felt at this concert of, like, you know, maybe like 900 people watching Chapel. And then now seeing her do that, like, it kind of had that. Like, she's now like my Elton John for so many people who have grew up with Elton John. And I just thought, oh, that was fun. I had a good time. Me too.

Did you like the party? I liked the party. I got to see lots of friends. But I went to a West Hollywood gay bar afterwards, which is a rare occasion that I do that. But you did it. I was in Taco Bell at the end of the night. Did you order food? I was honestly so tired that I didn't even order late night tacos, which is rare for me.

Where would you order from? Oh, my God. There's so many good places in L.A. We have tacos. We have quixados. We have cactus, which is really my. I don't know any of them. Oh, my God, I have to take you.

Isn't that so sad? Oh, I have to take you. Yeah, you're going to take me. We have a tour. We have a tour. And now we have a little time. A taco tour. Less events.

now. Yes. And I think that yesterday was it was a bad hangover day for me. Today I feel alive. I feel like I want to be a little more selective about not going to too much stuff. Yeah. Where did I, I saw you again on what was the other thing that I saw? Oh, women of the year. Yeah. Time was cool. Oh my God. And that one was Levei or, you know, the singer, the Levee. Yes. She was wonderful. She did that song, keep on going with your crazy dreams, it was like to your 12 year old self, I think. And I was like, I don't think my 12 year old self would have ever imagined being at this like women of the year for time gala with like all these icons. Like I was like kept flashing because I felt really tired and I was like, oh, do I want to go to this? And I looked around. I was like, oh my God,

how lucky am I to be in this room with all these gals? Yeah, it was so special. It's really cool. And I think about that for you and what an amazing sort of kind of kind of, connection to that song because, you know, we talked about this a little bit last time you came on the podcast. It was basically a year ago. Yeah. I feel like I'm part of the pod family now. You are and I love it. But I, you know, I always think about how you would interact with your younger self. And one of the things that I think is so beautiful in the book is that you actually dedicated it to your oldest best friend, Lily. Hi, Lily. And I, I loved watching. you tell her that the book is dedicated to her.

You know, you wrote the girl who helped show me the way. What does it feel like now to sort of look back at your younger self? You know, the girl that Leve sang to, the girl that you grew up with in Lily, the girl that she always recognized in you, even perhaps before you did, it must be so surreal from this place to look back at it. Well, I think that so little of like what's happening right now feels like normal. Like, and it still feels like I'm either living in a dream or a nightmare. And Lily is like the one constant that like when I'm around her, it reminds me of what life looked like before not only transition, but like this industry and in this town.

And in having her here with me going to these events, you know, being my plus one is like. it's a dream we met when we were 10 doing high school musical um she was in the basketball ensemble i was ryan and she was pissed that she wasn't charpe but i i think that like having that person that has known you longer than you know anyone and has loved you through all of the different chapters i think it feels really good because i feel like i'm still constantly meeting people trying to like either you know convince them of of what it is that i want to do or who i am or what my identity should look like for them because it's the way

that I see myself but for her I don't have there's no explanation necessary who is your Lily like from back in the day oh my gosh I moved a lot as a kid and so I don't have

so many people who stretch like way way way back I don't really have anybody before middle school and there's four of us from my middle school and high school that are still really close but my like my My Lily is my best friend, Nia.

You know, we've been at it for almost 20 years together. Where'd you meet? We met at a conference way back in the day before they were cool or, like, branded, you know. Our conference queen, Sophia, well, that is one thing I will say. I was thinking about when, because, you know, we talked about going to Paris together last year. And, oh, was that maybe, was that before we did the podcast? or I think it was after. I think it was after.

We had a really fun trip to Paris for a conference and a lovely man that worked at CAA was there and he's like, you know, who always will show up when you ask her and when you need her for something is Sophia Bush. And so like you've been doing this for a long time in the best way. And like you really are someone that people trust

and also that like you come through for people in really big ways. I think showing up is really important. Yeah. And it's certainly a love language for me. I know how meaningful it is when people do it for me. And I think, you know, the way Nia and I bonded and built our friendship, you know, out of that space, she cracked a joke. Like, why is the girl from TV here taking notes like a court stenographer?

Right. And I looked back at her and I said, I went to journalism school. My notes are very good. Do you need a copy? And she was like, yeah. And then we've been best friends ever since. Oh, my God. And I think for us, we've always been really mission aligned.

And it's weird to me when mission isn't part of, you know, someone's life or their ethos. And I think it's probably why so many of us find each other. Because, yes, you want to be creative and tell stories and have joy. And you also want to make the world around you a little kinder. And we want to have a reason. Like even it drives me crazy if I'm doing like a photo shoot and I don't understand like who is this for? What is that? You know, it might just be a picture and I might look pretty, but like is there, what else is here to like go off of?

And even no matter what it is, I think I want to figure out what is the reason behind something. Right. And why am I doing it? Why am I writing this book? Why did you make this podcast? Like there's there has to be something other than the surface behind. it even if it is just to like bring a little joy or to make someone laugh like that that can be enough in some cases but why did you want to write the book i wanted to write the book i think at first

this book has become a lot of different things because i sold it um really early on uh around days of girlhood and i thought it was going to be this fluffy little piece of um you know fun for people to have on their coffee table about, you know, with diary entries for my first year. And I grew up reading like Chelsea Handler and all these really fun, you know, female comedian books. So I wanted to make people laugh and I wanted to be a little raunchy. And then once Beergate happened, I, I knew that it needed to be something very different. And so it ended up being this thing that was deeply healing for me. And I, because I still in some ways had, this like bowling ball sitting on my chest, not being able to articulate what happened or how I

felt about it. And I wanted people to know because I built my platform on telling people things. Yeah. And I think this feels like a much safer medium than social media does right now for me. And I think it's something that I never thought I would get to write a book in my life. So it's, I think, probably the thing I'm most proud of now. And I'm scared because, Because I love it, and I don't know yet how the world is going to interpret that. But would you ever write a book? I've been dodging the question for about eight years. And now you can't because you're holding my hand.

Here we are. Yeah, people have approached me a few times about it. And I think I'm finally in a place where I'm ready to think about that. I think there was a time where it felt when my team first came to me with the idea at first it felt a little premature and now I think I understand that

feeling better because I understand so many things about myself better but it's terrifying to think about it's terrifying and I think if you just don't frame it as like a memoir like I always think of like yeah come on like we're not 80 right i can't write my memoirs now and that's what i really um because some people still classify this like as a memoir or it's so i'm so scared to say memoir like is that i because i feel like i'm from

like wisconsin and i'm talking about this book that i wrote called them and it's not a memoir it's like it's a hard word to say can you say memoir memoir okay okay we're settling on it it helps if you if you um yeah if you try to sound a little bit like the like a phone sex operator, memoir. Memoir. Memoir. It comes out easier, right? Oh my god, that's a beautiful bag. Is that your purse? It is. I love you. And it will fit a memoir in that. Two babies with ADHD sat together for a podcast. So I like that, I call it my like quarter life crisis book. Okay. And I think because it's very specific in the timeline, it's about my transition. It's about after Beergate. We do have some essays that flash back to, you know, my childhood.

but not in a way that feels like this is everything that I have to offer from age zero to 26. And that's all, you know, I could never revisit any of these topics. I wanted it to feel like a Chelsea Handler did a lot of kind of essays early on that I really, like, loved reading as a teenager because it felt like I didn't know that we were allowed to comment on our lives, you know, and it's kind of, of also kind of Carrie Bradshaw in the way that like she was writing about things so messily and and I haven't gotten to talk a lot about like sex or religion or things you know online that felt a lot more fun to put into a book. Yeah. Yeah. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. think it's really important. I like the references you make. I love Chelsea's books. And to your point,

one of the things I think we need more of is a little bit of permission to be messy. Humans are messy. My house right now. Oh. It's a state. I also like, I'm one of those people that like I will like have if I'm like, I clean my entire place. It'll look amazing for about 15 minutes. And then something happens and I don't know what it is but it then looks almost worse

than it did before I cleaned it so that's I think like and I've seen a few the reviews are starting to roll out and some of them

are like oh that you know it can be trickier to find the timeline or it can you know what are we in a journal entry are we in an essay

and there's a little bit of that but I kind of love that it's not about the linear nature but rather like what I'm learning and how I learned it

versus when but God I feel like life sometimes only does your life right now feel like it's getting messier or you're cleaning it up Oh I think I

I started a big clean up a couple years ago I my life feels very full and I am incredibly grateful for that and I would like to have a little more space

And so I'm trying to kind of recalibrate certain things Because I actually really like my life And I want to be present for more of it Yes And that feels special I feel the same I feel like this has been a really interesting time I've taken on a bit too much I've learned

And so I'm going to get through that And then try to clean shop in other ways But I think my biggest thing is I like to show up 100% for whatever it is that I'm doing whether that's an interview or a you know a performance like I went like I did the Edinburgh Fringe festival last year and I during that time you know I had all these other things that needed attention or my eyes on and I basically was like no all I want to do right now was work on this show and and I would be so disappointed in myself if I don't give it my all and

be like oh well I was trying to do a thousand other things so that is the part that scares me of like being a multi-hyphenate and then being like what that actually means of being able to put your attention to different things at the same time. I feel that as well because I wonder if I just did one thing at a time would I maybe accomplish more at the end. But also I have to, I realize I have to be gentle with myself and also trust myself. I am curious about a lot of things. I know our ADHD wants us to be doing a lot at the same time. How did you actually start down the path of comedy and writing and the fringe festival like now you've written a book you you create so much and i want to know how because i don't think anyone else is letting me do that like no i'm not

uh someone that's being particularly like tapped on for a thousand different stories to tell and so i think right now the best option is to tell my own um because i'm i'm I'm such an active member of my life and wanting to be in this industry, knowing that these are some of going to be some of really integral years to what the rest of it looks like. And so I don't want to sit at home waiting for, you know, I would love to just be an actress, and I would love to just wait for the auditions to come in and for the parts to play. But right now, that's, you know, limited for trans women, especially me who I think is, you know, shares quite publicly.

So I'm always trying to carve out other ways of filling time. And then I think what's fun is when somebody does approach me with an idea or an opportunity, I can fit it in amongst what I've already created, but I'm not waiting for anyone else. And I think there is something frustrating and can be exhausting of like always trying to manufacture and trying to tell, you know, a story. or get something off the ground, but I'm proud that I'm, I feel quite, I'm usually quite sub in certain situations, but I feel very dom when it comes to my career and my trajectory and my creativity.

Like I think I'm really, after finding my gender identity, I was like, oh, this is what being an artist can be now that I've, I've like figured some things out within my, myself. And I think maybe had things come a little easier as far as like I was on Broadway right now doing eight shows a week, I probably wouldn't have written this book. And I probably wouldn't have, you know, started my podcast or any of these things that I think I need, we need right now. And I do think trans joy can look a lot of different ways. But this book is probably the loudest version of it for me in this moment. I love that

for you. Yeah. And what it strikes me as when you talk about sort of taking control, it's agency. You are taking agency of your creativity. You are making the things that you want and need

that your younger self probably needed to. And I loved something that you said. Rolling Stone just did a great profile on you on the book. And it was such a sweet way to clap back at people who are so upset by trans joy

you said I'm not trying to influence anyone to do anything other than see a Broadway musical period I was like that's it that's my trans agenda and hopefully that Broadway musical would have a trans person in it but it would be wonderful it should be you but at the very least go see fucking cats you know like I'm

I just think that people are are so easy to project identities and activism and all these things onto you when if you really listen to what the person is trying to say or what I've also think is crazy is I've done interviews where I'm like I am not an activist and then they titled the interview activist Dylan Mulvaney and so it is really crazy how sometimes loud and clear and articulate you have to be in order to get people to figure out what it is you want. So what would you say you want?

I would like to be a Broadway diva who gets to tell stories, sometimes my own, sometimes fictional. I want to make people laugh, especially at some of the dark things, like through transness and identity. I would love to make people think. I think that's something that's newer on my list of desires, because for a long time, I didn't know that I could be vulnerable, like, publicly. That was kind of against the laws of my family.

You know, we were supposed to keep those things to ourselves, but now, like, love it. And I think that I would love to find love in the hard places and help other people figure that out, too. But in a lot of those things, you know, could be as stupid as in a sketch or in, you know, a musical or what. they don't have to all be in, you know, at conferences or, you know, speaking at the White House or whatever it is that some people also might assume that means. Yeah, I think when you stand up for people, stand up for yourself, stand up for others, you can kind of get cast as a very serious person. Yeah.

So many people think I'm so serious. And then people hang out with me and they're like, oh, you're weird and really quirky and funny. Right. we know how to have a good time yeah i actually will say though some of the most serious people are the ones that that like to have the most fun but then people expect that of potentially us we're in a way that it i don't think is always fair i think like uh i i love letting loose with with um people and i think people can tell that from social media but i i also i'm definitely not the trans girl that is is ready to like you know give you

every single statistic and talk about every single, you know, bill or, you know, anti-trans legislation in the works. And I feel guilty about that sometimes. But then I realize I'm like, oh, but there's like so many other dolls that are really good at that. And I can do my best to figure out how to connect them when those opportunities come my way or, you know, they've, we have great conversations like I'm going on a bunch of talk shows next week. And I've talked to a bunch of dolls about, you know, what should I say? What do you think is important for the community? You know, trying to stay really proactive

so that when those questions do come up, I'm ready, but not leading with it. Well, one thing I think is really important is that that can't just fall on you. Right. It can't just be on trans women to advocate for trans women. cis women need to show up and advocate for you. In the same way that when we talk about gender,

based violence around the world, that's actually, that's a male problem. That is a statistically male problem. If we scream into the void about what women go through in the world and men don't join us to say, men should stop assaulting women, we're in a vacuum. And so I think, I'm so glad you feel like you get to be your full self. And I love that you have a community that helps you figure out what you should use those platforms to say in the moment. And I want other folks to be reminded that we have to show up for you too. Yes, thank you. But it's also fascinating what's happening, I think, when it comes to allyship, because the far right extremists are getting really good at trying to scare our allies away. And even this was an example, is getting my makeup done

by a really lovely gay man last week and he was talking about this transvestigation over this very famous woman that all these people are claiming is a trans woman and all the reasons why

they think she's trans and I had to explain to him that it was like deeply problematic because you know whether this person was trans or not they were trying to cast her as this like monster or this person hiding you know

secrets or deceiving the public and and I had to explain that like what they now want to do is make cis women believe that like being called trans or you know being accused of being a trans person is like the worst you know thing when reality it's it's like most trans girls I know are really cute and and they we've got our you know we've got we're working on it we're we're getting it together but um I I find it very problematic that a lot of allies don't always know what is transphobic like like and and you know we've got to figure out those conversations but if if it's pushing a notion that like transness is evil or you know problematic like chances are it's probably transphobic yeah and and so it's it's

interesting uh getting to still exist in around so many icons And especially these women that I call friends and that support me publicly. Like I had Lady Gaga last year post on International Women's Day or, you know, standing up for me. And that's the kind of shit where I'm like, holy crap, like there's still the good ones. And I'm here with you right now. I think that it makes me sad to think that certain people would be scared to, you know, be seen with a trans person or to work with us. us or hire us, but there's so much power in saying, no, I'm not going to live in that fear or that, you know, people are going to boycott my product or not watch this television show

or unfollow because you support, you know, a trans person. That's, that is, it's, we can't give into that. We can not give into that fear. I'm so tired of being scared. Yeah. And now a word from our sponsors. One of the things I think is really beautiful about the book is you do claim so much joy. You do share so much happiness with us. And you also aren't shying away from the things that have been hard. And you do talk about Beergate. And you do really bring us into what it feels like.

to be targeted by these far-right hate campaigns. But the thing that hit me so hard actually is something you share in the first 30 pages of the book. And you talk about how so many external opinions, you know, you're one person on the internet, and millions of people can comment at you, and talk about how so many external opinions can create so much, noise, so much mental and emotional noise that your darkest thoughts, your self-loathing, your critique that all of us have inside of us can suddenly be parroting the worst of the comment section. Yes. And how, and reading your words when you talked about it, like took my breath away because I know exactly how that feels. It honestly made me gasp. Like I heard myself gasp when I read it

because I know how paralyzing that feeling is and how do you get how do you identify it how do you get out of it what's crazy is when you can then when you have made enough progress to see that you're quite literally at a crossroads where you're like I'm either going to believe this what they're saying about myself

and I'm going to take it on as part of me or I'm going to acknowledge that what they're saying is not true about myself because I know who I am and the people that I love know who I am and let that be the course that you take. And I actually, even just yesterday, I, even, we were talking about the Elton John party,

I was interviewing people on the carpet and I was reading all these comments about, oh, you know, this girl's so annoying, she's standing too close to people, she won't let her, you know, people get a word in, all these things, and I went, I almost was like, oh, I'm going to make a video now being like, yeah, I'm annoying, I know it.

And then I was like, oh, my, gosh like I it was like a clear cut you just changed your opinion about yourself based on these other people and there were plenty other comments that loved it and that were you know behind what I was doing but those other ones were louder and and I think what I had to do was not only kind of take some distance from taking an information about myself which is so hard to not look but I had to be very clear about who I who I was. I think I spent kind of the last two years since Beergate getting very specific about what I know about myself to be true so that now when I put a book out and

have a lot of new critique coming my way that I can stand behind those things. I know I'm a musical theater girl. I know that I talk too much. I know that, well that even me just saying that. That was a projection of someone else. That I love to talk is how I'll rephrase that.

That I feel really beautiful most of the time but that I also can sometimes get in my head and that's often linked to dysphoria. I know that I love to be raunchy and that that's not something to be ashamed of about myself.

And these are little things that I think are helpful. Then when I read those I can kind of go down the checklist and be like okay so that's not here already and I don't think we need to add it. It's just, it's so crazy how great social media can be and then how toxic it. And even

I think it goes back to the press too in the media of how they're pushing transphobia because a lot of what they're saying in these headlines are like deeply transphobic but they're very clickbaity. And those are other, like those actually I have an easier time laughing at because it's like it feels like this you know news source that couldn't be more incorrect um versus like seeing a person's name on a screen that's like leaving a specific comment because that feels in a weird way more

um tangible knowing there's like a human behind it yeah where it's a bot though what are bots could just be a bot i don't understand do you have do you have bots have you looked into bots oh oh it's just it's relentless and it's we need like a queer bot bot farm that like throws the good stuff out there. Could you imagine someone like doing it like a sexy, sassy commentary? Oh, that would be nice. Who's going to pay for that? I don't know.

We need a benevolent. Who's really, really. Yeah, we need a gay billionaire to put out. But I don't think there are any benevolent billionaires, unfortunately. I hate to. It's tricky, right? Weird. I don't know.

But if we win the power ball, it could be us. And then it's going to be us making a good bot farm. Yeah. I'm, I'm here for that. Is that an oxymoron? A good bot farm? Is it BOT, by the way? Yeah.

What is bot? Robot. Yeah, like a robot. It's a little digital terrorist, essentially. I'm also getting scared of how our future's going to go with robots and things. Yeah, me too. Everything's crazy. I'm like, did nobody watch Terminator?

What are we doing? I don't like the self-driving cars. No. Creeps me out. It all creeps me out. But at least we're entering into a future where your book exists. Woo! I bet it's going to get banned so fast. You know what's really sort of hilarious but sad about you saying that is my partner was like,

what is this enormous box of book? What is this? Like you need any more books? And I said, oh, no, sorry, last week I had to buy all the books, the DOJ band, just in case. Oh, my God. Like, were that in it? And I'm going, this is so weird that I'm turning my house into a book archive just in case. Well, I mean, Anne say that was right in the book? I say, like, I hope the words on this page last longer than the videos on my profile.

And TikTok got banned for a second there. And I was like, oh, shit. I thought this was going to be like a nostalgic 50 years from now sentence. And now it's like the reality. But a lot harder to get rid of something physical like this than to, you know, have a profile disappear online. And you just push something and have it go. And I think what I wrote about meeting Judy Blume in my book. And I got to interview her during literally the hard.

of Beergate. And what had happened right before I walked in that interview was I got slammed coming out of a woman's bathroom in the hotel that I was interviewing Judy Bloom. And they, you know, were saying horrible things to me up in my face. They had totally trespassing. But then I had to walk into this interview with Judy. And I swear things just happen when they're supposed to, and you see the people that you needed. Because I felt so small in that moment. And then getting to talk to her, you know, this is a woman who had her books banned years and years ago in like 70s and the 80s. And she looked at me at the end and she was like, do not let anyone stop you from sharing your story,

from writing it down, from putting it out there. She was like, there's so much good to be done. She was like there were so many people early on that tried to make me feel like I was, you know, evil or that I was doing something that was corrupting the youth. And she was like,

but you have to know. what the purpose is of something and she was like you've got to put it out there and so like hearing that from like Judy Blume that's somebody that's a little bit better to be listening to than Fox News I would say well yeah or some insane person bombarding bathrooms

can you like it's so gross it's so gross but you know what is wild to me and I think this is something people miss again because you know they have to create clickbait and rage in some way so they have to make everyone afraid of everyone

and there's no way that seeing you exist in the world and be happy is going to turn some cis kid trans. But what I know to be true is that a four-year-old who does what you did and says to your mom, God made a mistake. I'm in the wrong body, could see you and know that what they're saying isn't crazy. and that they're going to be okay someday. Yes. And that to me feels like such an important thing in the world

to just make sure that people don't feel alone. Right. And I've now, what's been fascinating since talking about that moment with my mom, like so many people, even in the industry, have, like, come to me and been like, hey, my kid is, you know, going through this. And it gives people permission to, have conversations and to like get to the bottom of things in a way that I think there was so much shame about before and I even told my family I was like I didn't paint us as these like

picture perfect people because we aren't and that's not what our family is but hopefully other people getting to see our progress and that the fact that we all still love each other and I feel so supported by them is is actually way more beneficial than me painting it as like a pretty picture yeah yeah Yeah, I think one of the hardest things about being a human in the public eye is that you very rarely get to go through something and process it and then talk about it when it's done. You kind of have to process in real time out loud. And I think that can be very toxic because then your life gets treated like it's a TV show or a storyline and you're like, no, this is happening to me. And it feels like it will never change.

Like, I now feel really removed from certain ideas that were made about me, like even being the trans beer girl. And now years later, I'm like, oh, I'm doing all these other things that have nothing to do with that. And I thought that was going to be the way that I was interpreted forever, but it's not. But it's not. And I think it's beautiful to see you go through certain things publicly, process them, and then be able to reflect. but I love that some of the stuff about you and your family, you've been able to do both.

You've been able to do the real time, but you've also been able to take us in the book on this journey backwards. And yeah, you've been honest about it. And I think honesty, actually, as a reader, makes me feel so hopeful for my own family, for other families. Well, I think you can tell when some, especially if you're, like, reading something of someone's,

like you can tell if how it's being spun as far as like and I was like I want to be as factual as I can with like how these moments went down so that people can feel whatever way that they feel about them and then there are moments where I really get quite emotional and show them kind of how I was feeling mentally versus like what was actually you know happening in the world around me and a lot of that I think in the book kind of slowed where I went into ayahuasca in Peru and I wrote about you know, this sort of like, I wanted it to be this quick fix. And what it really did was it like started something in myself that I was going to end up. I'm still thinking about so many of the things that I found while I was down there on that,

weird to call it a drug. It really feels more like a medicine. It's a medicine. Yes. Would you ever do ayahuasca? I have. Oh, wow. Okay, have we, I don't even know if we've talked about that.

We haven't. Oh my god. We need to. And it's also funny because I think like when I told people that I was going down there to do that, there was either certain people were like, that's amazing. I've always wanted to do that. Tell me everything. And then there are some people who feel really uncomfortable by the idea of like doing something a different kind of way. And that was like my work in progress was to try it in a way that was not offered to me as a young person. person or in my early year, like just, you know, if when, when she really hits the fan, doing it a different way. Well, I think a lot of people are scared of anything expansive. I think it's why so many people are afraid of trans people because you challenge boundary and binary. And you say there's a more expansive way to be a human.

You know, our friend Alok talks about this all the time, that the freedom that you have to claim to be trans is terrifying to people that don't feel free in their own lives. And for me, you know, 10 years ago when I had this like deeply prepared for, you know, therapy involved, all the things, experience, it was part of a larger process of how do I begin to not be stuck in this way of thinking? How do I begin to interact? How do I begin to interrupt a feedback loop and see other options that are probably here, but that I'm not seeing. Right. And I think when you can be well researched and safe and obviously, you know, ready,

in whatever way ready can feel because it doesn't always, you know, you won't feel 100% ready. Sure. But I think that's true for anything. And when something calls to you, when you're, when claiming. Who you are out loud calls to you when saying, you know, I built this whole life and I checked off everything on my list like a good girl and I really don't like it. And I think maybe I deserve to like my life. That I learned a few years ago is a radical act. Yes. And I think sometimes when you are radically courageous, people really will shit on you for it. But some people will also walk up and hug

you and say you saved my life and that makes it worth it i just wish the internet was less prone to shitting on people i sometimes i forget because i was you know 14 the only like gay person out at my high school like i forget that it is there are so many adults that are still grappling with these decisions that are living these life have children have you know jobs that like that they are trying to make the most difficult decision to be themselves possible and i think I have to always remember that it's not always as easier available to people as someone like me who was really privileged to, although my family was conservative and Catholic, like I didn't get thrown out of the house. And I found these pockets of community like in theater where like some

people don't have those places to like see gay people thriving. So the internet is really good in that way. Yeah. You know, people get to to watch things like this. But I think that it's I don't know this book coming out in 2025 is crazy because it's a radical act yes but and even when it was decided that it would come out we didn't know who the president was going to be we didn't know what trans legislation was going to look like and so I have to trust that this is the right time and I don't want to become a poster child again like how that felt like it went down in 2022, but I feel charged up in a really good way, which is yummy. How do you, when do you feel the most like when you're feeling like really exhausted,

how long does it take you to get back into like progress mode or when you've like had a big, like what feels like maybe a failure or when, you know, something doesn't go your way that you've been working so hard towards how long does it take you to bounce back and then when do you know that you're ready i don't know i think it's sort of a case-by-case thing something that i have learned to monitor for myself as as you said earlier you went oh look at me i'm i'm already acknowledging something nasty someone said to me and apologizing for it when i find myself so wounded by negativity that I'm figuring out

how to answer for it when you know the next time I have a mic I'm going to have to figure out how to gently address then I know I need a beat before you know I don't need

to explain everything to everyone and it's a weird thing because the internet will critique you if you don't and then if you do they critique you for overshoot and no matter what you do, you can't get it right. And so I have to take a breath and say, this is not a normal human experience for there to be one of us

and multi-millions of people talking at us all the time. Yeah. So if I know that, how can I then try to use it for good, remind myself that it's also not my real life, and be in my life as much as I can. And that, even when I can ask myself those questions, I know I'm in a good place because I'm making adjustments for my humanity, not for what something looks like. And is Ashlyn the one that helps you take a beat and like figure out what it is you are called to say or what your, you know, real opinion is on certain things before you share that public? like who is who's the because for me it is a lot of Lily it's my life coach Mori it's

a loke me and a loke talk all the time you know there are those people do you have like who do you find yourself in those tough situations going to and now a word from our wonderful sponsors have had to come to terms with having real joyful, like deep, silly, expansive love in my life is that I have actually done so much by myself for so long. I tend to show up for other people, but I very rarely ask people to show up for me. And I am learning to ask. I am learning that I don't have to do it all by myself. I am learning to call my, you know, wonderful coven of brilliant women

and just say, what the fuck are we going to do with this? I will say, I feel like there's so many people in this world that have to find every other opinion with their own before they conform theirs. And so it is kind of iconic in a way that you can do things independently.

But I will say the fact that you have that like this like arsenal of incredible humans to tap into you should use it yeah and i'm working on that and it feels nice to not uh have so much weight on my shoulders all the time i i have a question for you because look we're all obviously navigating our lives but one of the things that i feel excited about for you as your friend is as you kind of name and claim all your power, I feel like you're also in this fun moment of starting to figure out who's going to pour into your cup. And it's different for you.

You know, you talked about being, you know, a young out gay. And then having to really come to terms with the fact that, oh, that's not my full self. I'm actually this woman that I've always felt in me how does that experience shift how you date? Oh my God. Because you're also so public.

Yes, but we'll think about this. Tall glass of water because it needs to be someone who is comfortable dating someone in the public eye. Yep. Is attracted to trans women. Yep. Is comfortable with maybe aspects of their life. You know, not that I'm like going to put a relationship

on blast, but there is a chance whether I speak or not that aspects of their life could be affected by what I'm doing and saying. So it almost has to be someone who has like a kink for like an oversharing trans woman. But like what I, the most important thing is that I cannot be with someone who I have any doubts is ashamed to be with me. And because what I have done so well is like start to let go of the shame that I have around who I am. So what would be the worst case scenario is me attaching myself to someone else who then I start changing myself based on how they're reflecting back to me and what they're seeing in me and what they articulate to me about myself.

And so I really think it's going to be, I actually, it's a hot take, but I would like it to be someone that has something to do either with our industry or is in the public eye already so that like if I was with this like doctor that you know their shit doesn't get rocked on the daily mail because like there's just things and maybe who knows how life is going to

baptize someone in the public life fire I get that yes and so in a way there would be some comfort in knowing like oh this person has their own thing going on as well but I think I'm really turned on by creativity, by drive, I find it so, like, if I'm, like, out on a date with someone and they're talking about all the things they're doing, I get so horny because I'm like, oh,

this is someone who has, like, like, dreams and ambitions just the way that I am. So they're not going to, if I come in, you know, I walk into the house one day and I'm like, I want to do this, this, this and this, that they're like, whoa. Like, I think I want, like, a yes human. And I've really, I've tried the hookup thing. I've found it to be really true. L.A. is honey. It's not giving.

What do you mean you've tried the hookup thing? I've tried the casual. Yeah. Whether it's, I'm meeting someone in a bar. I've never been on an app. So I'm so crazy. I'm so jealous. I've actually, I only have Raya.

I've been thinking about potentially deleting it just because it hasn't yielded the greatest results. Sure. But I think there, what's the word? Oh, Demi. sexual, I think maybe Chapel Rhone was talking about in an interview about what I like is I need to be emotionally connected with someone beforehand and especially I think being trans, I feel really protective over my body and the fact that there's still so many things changing

with it. And I want it to be someone that I, like, it is hard for me to get to a place where I'm like ready to like take my makeup off and like Godford, I was thinking about, you know, someone was talking about like shower sex recently and I was like okay that's my worst nightmare because I was like not only are the fake lashes you know they're coming off but like that is really it's such a vulnerable state to be in but I really hope that it's with someone and I like older I've always liked a mature soul but I hope it's with someone who I is is proud to be with a trans person and is who gets a kick

out of whatever it is that I'm doing or want to do and I want to be the same with them. I love that. Yeah, I don't know. You've got to think about, I'm looking for like 28 to 58 mask,

bisexual vibe, feels yummy, you know, kind of like daddy, but also, you know, can be like soft as well. Think on it. You've got a pool of queer now. Oh, I'm going to really, I'm going to think about this. And the other thing, I used to date

gay men and they were so much better than straight guys. I had no idea what I was missing. Yeah. And what that I had in that what I ended up getting was not as good as I thought it was going to be. And I have an essay called The Kissing Bandit in the book where I talk about you know, just like what it felt like to have like the straight male gaze on me for the first time and not the gaze, but the gays. And I thought it was going to feel so much better than it did. It was, it was such an empty confidence that came from it. And, you know, it can feel good sometimes, but it doesn't make me feel as good as like when a girl's hyping me up and, you know, in the bathroom or, you know, a phone call with Lily. Like, it's interesting to now, I've kind of

gotten to look at life on both sides, like Joni Mitchell. Yeah. And I love that I can see, like, the perks of living life as a gay man versus as a woman, what the, how the queer community treats you, depending on what gender you are. Like, how women treat you. Oh, that changed a lot. And it's still, you know, evolving in something that I feel, I hope does not digress. because I feel like I have really taken the, not a backseat at all,

like almost like the passenger seat to the driver in learning from other gals. Yeah. What do you feel like you're learning? I think I'm learning that not, like I think I was, it felt for a long time like it was cis women versus trans women. And I'm realizing there's a lot of the girls are fighting in both categories, but that there are a lot of cis women who do not see eye to eye on things. as well. And that, to me, gave me permission to not look at us as these two different categories

of people, but actually see the nuance of what exists within womanhood and feminism and knowing that even I'm watching the White Lotus right now. And it's so interesting, like, when you've got like a, we're looking at these, have you watched it yet? Like a friend group of women who maybe have different political beliefs and how that shifts, you know, the conversations and the judgments. And I think that I now have less of a desire to be accepted by every single woman. And it's more of a desire to be respected by those that I deeply respect. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. And a lot of – and I will say – like the gals that I've loved and my role models growing up like now some of which are like friends and that is what a gift like that is helped show me that I I'm the kind of gal that I loved growing up and that I would continue wanting to be

I love that for you you're the gal you loved growing up I'm so proud of you still like sex in the city I've been watching so much of And, like, I, you know, there's this, like, fear, I think, as a trans person that you are, you know, made out to be a character or that you're taking on aspects of, you know, other women or fictional women. And so I did feel a little guilty. I was like, oh, I love Audrey Hepburn and I love her style, but I don't want it to seem like I'm, like, cosplay as her. I love Charlotte from Sex and the City. And, you know, I feel so connected to her as a character, but I don't want it to seem like that's what I'm, like, trying to be.

And then I realized like, oh, no, that's just, you're seeing things, whether it's in a character or in a human or in a celebrity that you see within yourself and that have already existed. And it's not that there are things that I'm putting on, but it's things that I see in others that I love and that I want to make even a little brighter within me. Well, things you identify with that you feel represented by, that you feel that make you feel seen. Yeah. What girl in Sex and the City are you? I don't know

Probably I mean let's be honest I think people probably would have thought Carrie but I think I'm a little more Miranda my dad still can't believe I'm not a lawyer He's like you love to argue You love to fight for justice I see some Miranda there

I also think like you Holden earnestness And an innocence still That is kind of Charlotte It gives you Charlotte and I don't know you sweet angel Yes because that is such a rarity and I like that is honestly when I think of our group of friends and and those that we hang out with like there is that innocence that I love we talked about it last last year on the pod of like you know finding people that have oh and I loved um Jane Fonda recently did a podcast interview where she talked about optimism versus hope yes and so with Kerry Washington yes it was so good I I now because I feel like for so long I've been like I'm in you know eternal optimist and now I'm like, oh, no, we're hopeful.

I'm hopeful. I'm still so hopeful. Is that going into this crazy year where literally our rights are being stripped away and democracy might be lost, but your book is coming out? It's the horrors and the joy. Is it hope that feels like your work in progress right now, or is it something completely different? Well, it's actually, I think it's a balance of,

realism versus hope and for I think for a long time I lived I'm a zero to 100 person 100% just hopeful in a way that I got burned so many times because I wasn't taking into consideration what could happen

or the realities of what it meant to be trans in America or the realities of living in the public eye I always assumed the best of everyone even the media and it's it's bitten me enough for me to know the possibilities of what that looks like.

And so I'm a little more cautious, but the hope is that I can exist in a place where it's the best case scenario and that the good things are possible and that my vision board can come true. And then it's the lack of when those things don't happen or can't happen because of the gear that we're living in or the government that we have

or whatever that might be, that I have a plan B, C, and D that can still get me through and that I can still live a full life, hopefully, but I'm not going to go to plan B, C, or D before I try plan A. And I think that has been really crucial. Like even this year, I don't have a vision,

I'm always a vision board girl. I've always been able to manifest, like, magical things, but it feels so out of the ordinary right now that I haven't forced myself to like want certain things but I am approaching every single like opportunity I'm like does this help me become a Broadway diva and so that that's my vision board for this year is that question and there's like hope within that and I think so I will say oh yes thank you Jane Fonda hope is my work in progress right now I love it yeah what's yours right now you give me a lot of hope

I think slowing down It's really hard for me Oh yeah But I am I am just so Ready for Slow Tender

We don't want to be everywhere and nowhere We want to be some places In and giving 100% Oh I love you I love you So proud of you So proud of you

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