Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Grace Van Patten

Episode Date: October 8, 2025

Hulu’s acclaimed limited series "The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox" pushed Grace Van Patten to her limits—learning Italian in weeks, embodying Amanda’s story, and carrying insights from both Knox herself and producer Monica Lewinsky that changed her beyond the role. Grace opens up about the pivotal gap year that made her choose acting for good and the unexpected lessons she’s still trying to apply off-screen. Plus, with "Tell Me Lies" season 3 filming now, Grace hints at what makes this chapter of her career both thrilling and bittersweet.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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So you know the person you're talking to is who they say they are. If you've been thinking about dating again, take this as your sign. Start your love story on Bumble. Hi, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to Work in Progress, friends. This week, we have someone I am elated to talk to. As you all know, from our wonderful episode with Amanda Knox, I am fascinated with her story. And her story has come to life on Hulu with the twisted tale of Amanda Knox, which is dominating the conversation right now and certainly expanding the already impressive reach of its star, Grace Van Patten. Grace was raised by two creative parents and quickly established her own artistic identity and voice. She has worked with

incredible visionaries like Noah Baumbach and Nicole Kidman. Her Hulu series Tell Me Lies is on its way back to us for its third season and promises to be even more intense. But my goodness, the intensity of this role. Grace plays Amanda Knox with such a commitment to the mess of it all, the fear, the anxiety, the trauma, frankly, of, of what it's like to be wrongly accused of a heinous crime. And the show really leans into investigating perception, justice, and identity. It's the kind of layered storytelling that, as an observer, I would say, has become Grace's signature. She gravitates toward complex characters.

She amplifies women's voices. And she wants to be part of roles that challenge the way society treats us. She is exactly the kind of artist. I am thrilled to sit down with and chat with today. Let's dive in with Grace Van Patten. Hi, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so thrilled that you're here.

Me too. I'm so excited about the project, but before we jump into all the things happening this week, in terms for our friends at home of when we're recording. I actually want to go backwards because I feel like audiences, when you're promoting something or you're a few years into a series like you are, they know what you've been up to. But I'm always really curious about where people come from. And so I like to ask people from this vantage point that you're at today, if you got to go back

and at school or on the playground hang out with your eight-year-old self, do you think you would see the woman you are today and her, and do you think she would be so amped to find out what you're up to as an adult? That makes me want to cry.

That's so cute. Yeah, I think she'd be amped. I think she'd be really excited. I don't know if she saw all of this in store for her, but she was a very curious kit and now that has turned into a curious adult so we've maintained that

um yeah it's it is crazy to think about yeah and i had no like acting was something that i enjoyed so much as a kid just like school plays and yeah um acting classes but it's something i never saw as a career and I think that's because I didn't have as much faith in myself and I saw my dad's director I saw how unpredictable it was and how I didn't see just the glamorous side of it so it took me a really long time to to think that I could do it that I was even capable of it so um it's it's interesting to think of me as a kid and the idea I had of like something I love but never thought of pursuing as a job and and how lucky I am that those two things can coincide and I get to do what I love as a job totally so cool I think it's also

really interesting because people assume if you have any connection to the industry that it's going to be so easy for you and you're like no no the people who have connections to the industry often know how they see absolutely horrible it is and like that it's not steady in any way that it's not something you can count on. Totally. You know, I grew up, my dad is also an artist. He's a photographer. And I always planned on going to medical school.

Really? And then I had an arts requirement. My best friend was like a quintessential theater kid, always singing in vibrato in the halls, like doing show tunes. And I was like, I love you, but that's not my thing. Chill. Like, I like a musical, but I don't know that I would be in a musical. And when I did a play and realized how much.

much bigger the world of theater was, and I decided to shift my career path into the arts, my parents were like, what are you thinking? You see how this is, and it's awful. But I think when you're young enough, you kind of go, what? Why not? Maybe. Well, because it's so fun, and it's like playing dress up as a job. Of course that sounds appealing. It's interesting to me that I always land on kind of what were you up to at eight or nine yeah because didn't you do the sopranos when you were eight i did i did i was exactly eight and it's a really funny thing because like a couple years ago i don't know i just came up in conversation with my dad like if my dad and i have ever worked together and we both like immediately said no because we neither of us remembered that it was because

in my memory, I was eight, I was on set and I thought my dad was just like my dad on set, like, telling me what to do as opposed to being the director of the episode. Oh, my God. And he just, he directed so many episodes and I had like two lines and

I think I was in two episodes and he did one of them. So I just, we completely... You didn't even realize. Yeah, and I just thought he was like my dad hanging out on set. Totally. But that was a, I, that experience, like, I still get that, that, because that was my first, I told my dad, my parents, like, I want to act, and they're like, okay. And I kept, I kept pushing them and pushing them. And my dad's like, you can audition. That's, sure, you can audition. And, like, I'll never forget that feeling of walking into Steiner Studios. And my mom was just like, let me go. And I, signed in and I'm like waiting waiting in the waiting room and feeling those like nervous butterflies

and walking in and my dad's like in the back row crossing his legs and he's like I'm not getting involved yeah he's like I'm not getting involved yeah um and that's still how I feel walking in it's like but it's the excitement it's like it's horrible it's so scary but it's like I don't know it's what keeps you on your toes yeah yeah I love that Do you think because, because I get what you're saying, it's actually so normal, especially when you grow up on the crew side of things. Yeah. I would imagine it would probably be pretty crazy to grow up with a parent who was like a Tom Cruise kind of movie star, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Like that would be nuts. But when you, when you grow up and a parent is crew, like camera directing, set deck, whatever, you see the other side. of it, do you feel like you knew you were in a creative household because your parents were in the arts, or does that sort of register for you more now as a creative adult? Yeah, I definitely knew that it was a creative household. My dad is such a creative, artistic soul, and my mom is two and they're they're very they're very open curious people and always like always pushed us to um find that part within ourselves i've i'm one of three sisters the oldest of three sisters and um they always encouraged us to like find our form of expression what whatever that may be and

for me it was acting and sports and a whole you know those were the the the bookends of totally um so it definitely felt like that and my dad like we didn't grow up talking about the business a lot

it was not dinner table talk but whenever he did it was it was purely out of passion like I saw him choose things

and choose jobs that that he was really passionate about and felt connected to yeah um which was so inspiring to me like not as a kid i didn't know that that was going to be inspiring but now i am so inspired by that mentality and really really try and do that with myself now is just like jump into things that i know um i really feel a certain way about yeah um

because that's that's what's most fulfilling to me totally yeah and i think when you do this when you're part of the sort of traveling circus and you have to pick up your life and move to a random place and do these crazy hours and sometimes you're on a project that's, I don't know, all night shoots. It's like, you have to love it

to navigate the sort of weird technical parts of it. Yeah. Are your sister's also really artistic or does everyone kind of have their own thing? They're all really creative. Yeah, my middle sister is also an actor and she's in the show with me. She plays my sister in the Amanda Knox show.

And my other sister's only 14, and she is really into basketball. And currently wants to be in the WNBA. So I'm like, just go down that bad. We got to get her to a Liberty game. I want to be at Courtside. Yes. That'd be amazing.

It's so fun. Do you go to the Liberty Games? Yeah, all the time. So fun. All the time. So fun. I'm such a basketball. and soccer fan and I don't know it's interesting because you were an athlete and an artist I was

like the asthmatic kid who clearly was never going to keep up when all the soccer players started to get really good I was like and I'm out like I don't have the lung capacity to run that fast and now I literally refuse to run unless I'm being chased oh I can't do it I can't run I can't it's not for me I have find no joy but it's interesting that you guys You figured out something that's almost like somatic, right? Being an actor, being a dancer, being an athlete, it requires such a relationship to your own body. So true. That's kind of cool that your little sister's really really into it.

She's crushing. She is like, she's so good. Oh, I love that for you guys. And she's going to like, yeah, I could talk about her forever. She's, I love her so much. Is she in that sort of timeline like you were? Because I know you had to choose between a sports school. and a theater school when you were picking a high school yeah she's just she's going

sports wow I like she has shown interest in acting but I can't tell I can't tell yet if it's like you know let's get her in the W&B but I know it'd be it'd be so cool do you feel like looking back you you know how you made that decision because it's a crazy thing to think about, and maybe I'm reflecting on this because I'm thinking about it for myself too, to go home and say to my parents, just kidding, I'm not going to medical school, I'm going to go in the theater. They were like, what do you mean? And for you to make that choice and say, okay, if I have to give something up, I'm really going to bet on myself and I'm going to do this, do you feel like you knew where that came from, or do you remember the day that you made the decision?

I feel like I never made the decision. Really? I feel like I was young enough and didn't feel like I was giving something up. It felt like I was just going for something that I knew I was interested in and didn't, I couldn't, I didn't know where it could go or where it was going or where I even wanted it to go. it was kind of I graduated high school I didn't know I went to LaGuardia

and studied it for four years so I didn't know what life was out life was like without it you know without studying it every day yes it's like a conservatory you're doing it half your day every single day for four years

so I really wanted to see how I felt about it without doing it every day without being surrounded by actors And so I took a gap year, and I took classes in other things that I was interested in, like criminal psychology and philosophy and just like trying to see if anything sparked my interest to, I don't know, divert. Even though I knew acting was, it was in there. Yeah. And then within that year is when I met my manager who just approached me at a birthday party.

Oh, my gosh. And when she signed me, I think that was the first moment where I was like, I think it took somebody believing in me to be like, oh, okay, okay, maybe it's time I can try this and go for it in some type of real way. And then that's kind of when it all started. Oh, that's so exciting. Yeah. We'll be back in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors.

what is your relationship like to new york now because you grew up here you went to your conservatory here like what what's your experience with the city now as an adult who's a working actor and is in and out all the time i love it yeah it's it's magic to me yeah me too it's like i i only left because if i didn't i'd be here my whole life and i wanted just some sort of sort of change you know I wanted to experience something else and something new um that's that's the only reason because I find it so inspiring and so frenetic and so yeah it's just magic it's such an interesting place because I feel like the city has its own kind of rhythm and it's almost like jumping in a river and you just figure out where it's going to take you totally that's how I feel

about life too because I think I grew up here I was like yeah it's going to happen today it's like yeah exactly very spontaneous you don't know what to expect you don't know what's around the corner yeah and that's kind of how how I live my life it's right now thinking about things that are happening in your world obviously we're going to get to the Amanda Knox story which I'm so excited to talk to you about me too but we can't talk about now without also touching on nine perfect strangers because it was so phenomenal and I thought about

there was a moment I remember watching the show one of my best friends worked on it with her boss and so we talked so much about what that journey was like particularly when everyone was filming and the world was shut down and things were so crazy and I had this moment watching an episode

watching one of your scenes and it was like some part of me that's in me from my first year going on location to North Carolina and being away from everyone I knew and working on my first show

was like oh my God she's also a baby but like she's a baby on set with Nicole Kidman what is her experience is she okay did she have fun I'm telling you it was such a surreal thing for me

oh that's so interesting you could like feel it and you're like I've been I know It was like the girl playing the teenager in me, recognizes the girl playing the teenager in you? That's so funny. Yeah, you're not wrong. I was definitely, it was, like,

it was such a beautiful experience and such a scary experience at the same time. And that's only because I think if the state of the world was different, it'd be a lot more positive in terms of, like, mental state. Yeah. Um, this, the scary part about it was just that I had to go to Australia for six months and I knew that I couldn't leave and that no one could visit me. And so the, the, the anticipation of going was the, was the scariest part to me. Once I got there and once everyone was so nice and like, because we all only had each other, it was such a beautiful bond between all of us. um that's so different than any other job i've been on when people have their people around

or their families or whatever it is and this was really special for that reason but yeah it can get it can get really lonely for sure and what was it like for you being essentially the kid there I mean you're going to work with Nicole Kidman and Melissa McCarthy and Bobby and all these people like Do you feel like they really were wonderful mentors for you? I do. I really would just, like, sit there and watch all of them. All these personalities, all, like, would seemingly a different approach to it. Like, I, because it was such an ensemble and all of these amazing people were around me, it was such a good, like, I had a vignette into, like, all of these different types of approaches and processes and, like, personality.

yeah completely um and all different parts to like it was just it was so fun to watch and in the most beautiful beautiful place ever in Byron Bay and there was no COVID there so it was like a weird I was so disconnected from what was going on to well because you guys were in a bubble complete bubble And no one coming in or out, so once they knew no one in the bubble wasn't, was sick. It was. And just no one was sick. And no one in, like, all of Byron, but the whole town was, it was completely COVID-free. What a trip.

So what were you guys doing since you couldn't go anywhere? Like, did you just play every board game under the sun? Yeah, we play board games. A lot of, all of the, like, younger people in the cast lived in this row of townhouses. so we were just kind of like felt like friends. Like we were just like hopping around each other's homes and it was so great. I met a bunch of people there like from the town just like going to coffee shops and going to the beach and such like a welcoming little community. That's so cool.

It was really, it was a really. And then I stayed because COVID was still so bad in America and Australia was like COVID free. I stayed in Australia for three more months after shooting. and lived in a van for a month and traveled down the coast and it was it was unbelievable yeah okay now as the person who is an adult who thinks about all of the children in my life how did your parents feel like when you called and you said hey mom dad i'm going to stay and live in a van what was the response there i was i was with my boyfriend at the time so i wasn't alone okay i wasn't like alone on the road so they felt comforted by that i watched like too much true crime to not

immediately panic hearing that but you're here so obviously you're safe no I'm fine I was fine okay um it felt like a very safe safe place but but alone no that would be I don't think I could do it like I am such a I just have a spirit crush on Tracy Ellis Ross

I'm obsessed with her everything from like democratic advocacy to her fashion she's one of my favorite people to hang out around but she travels alone all the time and I'm like girl have you Have you never gone anywhere alone, like taking a little solo trip anywhere? Not for, not that far, I guess, is part of it for me.

Like, sure, you know, I go places alone all the time, but it's usually for work. Right, which is a different under-differences. Yeah. But I've never packed up two suitcases and, like, I'm going. Backpacked for three weeks solo. Yeah. I've always been curious. I've taken, like, obviously work, and then if I'm, like, I've taken week.

trips alone and because I'll tack it on to the end of something yeah exactly exactly but right to make the decision and like plan an itinerary for a vacation solo yeah I've never done very inspired by me too I'm scared me too I'd be yeah I hope I do it at some point in my life okay we're starting the accountability group yeah okay I'm like where are you going where are you going by the end of 2025 deal um how are things going speaking of you know many seasons of television how is everything going with tell me lies you're going into season three are you just finished we're in the middle of season okay you're in the middle yeah yeah we have like a month left of shooting and are you still loving it i am it's like oh my gosh i could talk to you about this forever by the way i started watching

one tree hill as like press no like i was like oh my my god like this that was the show of the time yes i was watching one tree hill i was watching oh yeah and you're so you're so good you're so i had so much i'm still watching it like i just started this season three it's like a hundred and eighty seven hours of television and i'm gonna watch it all oh boy and i'm gonna reach out to you and tell you everything oh my god anytime wait where are you in my show since you're three years into your show no i just season three, I'm just starting one tree hill. Oh my goodness.

So when I found out I was coming here, I'm like, oh my God, I wish I had finished it all by the time I'm here to ask you a million questions. I have so much to talk about. But yeah, so much to talk about. How many seasons was that? Nine. How old were you? Like, what was the age? I had been 21 for

I think two weeks, maybe when I moved to Wilmington. Wow. And I remember literally getting there and being like, I can go into a bar like with my co-workers. This is so weird.

Whoa. Like feeling like a kid but knowing you were able to do adult things. But it was also really weird for me because I went to an all-girls like very nerdy academic like a prep school but not one of those like

old money prep schools. It just happened to be an all-girl school that wanted to make sure you got into a good call college. And so I had gone from there to being a philanthropy chair at USC, like in the Greek life system. And of course, I was like the charity chick. Did you go to college at USC? I did three years there. Because by then I knew I wanted to act. And I was planning on going away to a conservatory. And I had met my manager, my senior year in high school. I had done a play that was very controversial and wound up

with this little write-up in the LA Times. She came to see it, signed me, and was like, if you really want to be an actor, you can't leave L.A. I auditioned for the BFA program at USC and got in, and so I stayed. Wow. And then I almost didn't take One Tree Hill

because I didn't want to miss my senior year in college because it felt so it felt like all the movies I grew up on because I hadn't had that high school experience. So then I get to Wilmington and I have to play a boy crazy most popular girl in school who's the head of the cheer team i've never cheered i didn't go to school with boys we there were 55 of us in my entire grade there was no popularity contest like we were

losers oh my friends and i were like the awkward theater camp kids and i had to like go be brook davis and i was like okay i guess i can pretend i would have never guessed that you're so natural and it fit Like, oh my God, you're so, that's crazy. When we started rewatching the show for Drama Queens for other podcast, which was our COVID project, I literally for the first five episodes was like, oh my God, I need to stop trying so hard. I'm trying so hard to like be the cool girl. And eventually I think I settled into it. Oh, my God. It's crazy to me that that's the part I got hired for because that was your first job.

That was my first regular gig. Wow. I had been working a little bit, but that was my first, like, series regular job. That's crazy. And what, like, to make that decision and think about the other path and think about... Crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

That's nine years. I can't even imagine. No, I mean. Three years now feels like nine. And so I can't imagine nine. Do you know? Because streaming is so different. I feel like most shows go max three or four seasons.

Yeah. Yeah. We don't know yet You find out at the end of every year Like we used to, right? Exactly I mean like it feels like it's coming to Like it feels

Like that would be the appropriate thing To kind of have this, to have it three But it's so good We don't want it to be over It'd be so bittersweet It really would be Like Yeah

The cast We are all so close Like we are family Like they are some of my best friends and I feel so like, like, I cannot imagine if we didn't get along. And for that, I'd be sad. Like, a group of friends working together, like, it's so special. It just actually feels, it's just so fun.

It's so fun. But also nice to, like, move on. How did that job come your way? was it one of a million things you were going out for and just trying to figure out yeah it was um i remember first meeting with megan the showrunner and hearing about it and and just thinking it was so i just love watching those types of things toxic relationships and i just blew valentines when my favorite movies oh my god yeah it's so painful it's like painful but it's like exciting too

or at least I found movies like that exciting but maybe it's just because I found the acting exciting like people just kind of losing their mind totally because it feels dangerous yeah it feels dangerous and free yes yes acting wise like it feels like

you could just kind of go crazy and I thought this this show was such a cool way to show it within young people in a serious way like it takes these young people's feeling so seriously which I had never seen before

it's so refreshing yeah it's fun it's like we have to stop treating young people like they're stupid yeah I hate when we treat audiences like they're stupid and I hate when we treat characters like they're stupid yeah like young dumb yeah yeah totally I mean these characters are they might be doing really stupid things but yeah that's just part of

growing up. Yeah. We'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors. I mean, talking about feeling like you could lose your mind in a role, talk to me about playing Amanda Knox. Where did this even begin? And also, you know, I remember that trial. I remember when this was happening. I don't remember if I was in high school or college, but I remember it being everywhere in the media. Obviously, this is pre-social media, all of the sort of sleuthing people can do now. There were no, like, amateur crime solvers, faking things out. The media could spin stories. They could make you think anything about anyone that they wanted to. And her story was so insane.

insane and and now as an adult not only to have seen what's happened with her story and to know she was wrongfully convicted to know there was literally not a shred of evidence that she was anywhere near this crime and to realize what they said about her what was it like for you because you had to go back and i would imagine read it watch it learn it exactly paint me a picture of this shocking like because I I was really young when when it all happened so I wasn't you know I didn't have a memory of the headlines and yeah and the controversy of it but I knew her name like that name was so engraved in my head for some reason I don't know but I do remember watching the Netflix documentary in 2015 or 2016 when it came out out and that was that was around the time I had started acting professionally and I have a vivid memory of calling my agents at the time saying I I need to play her no it was I don't know why I thought I was so intrigued by the story and by her like I thought she was such an individual

person and for someone being scrutinized by her behavior so much I'm like what what I was just so fascinated by it um so this was a crazy crazy full circle weird universal thing i don't know i don't know crazy thing that this happened yeah so where did you begin when you heard this was happening i i i think i when i heard it was happening it wasn't an open thing like i think they were like they're offering it to a big name. And then when I heard, and then all of a sudden, Amanda Knox started following me on Instagram. And that was the first, like, what's going on?

Yeah. And I texted my agents right away. I'm like, what does this mean? What is this, guys? And they're like, let's see, what do we need to know? And from that point on, it was like meeting with KJ and Warren, who, like I hadn't started my research at that point I was just so interested in it and wanted to know what what the angle was and what was happening with it and hearing KJ's vision for it yeah how did they pitch it to you oh my gosh it was like well I learned so much just within that that pitch of it of how she was setting up the show but also the approach to it of it of She just had such a perspective, which is so rare, especially for a true crime show, it's like to not just have it be shock value morbid, you know, it was, it had the essence of Amanda, which I didn't know yet at the time, but like having the tone be Amelie-esque because Amelie was Amanda and it was also her.

her alibi and having those omelie-esque sequences that feel like her, feel like Amanda's essence and like it's a way to understand her and what happened simultaneously. And it, um, I thought that was so smart, such a smart way to tell this story. Um, and it made me so, it just made me so much more interested. And it was like, it was a very quick process of like, like, finding out that I was doing it and then two months later we were shooting it. So like squeezing in two months, learning as much Italian as I could and speaking no Amanda as much as I could. I mean, were you guys just on FaceTime all the time? I bugged her for a bit.

And she was not even bug because she was like, she was just so cool and willing to talk to me about anything. Yeah, she's so lovely. Oh my gosh. It really, it strikes me as something so interesting for you to be portraying now because even over the last 20 years, the increase in our societal consciousness about the way women get spoken to, spoken about, portrayed who they get to be, you're too much of this, you're not enough of that, has grown in ways that are so relieving and also I think not enough. Yeah. But I think about hearing about that story. And from today, looking back, and we had her on the show. I can't wait to listen.

Yeah, when the show is coming out, and she's so incredible. So smart. And what really struck me about her is she's so intelligent. I mean, she's a brilliant woman. And for some reason, particularly when we were all kind of college aged you weren't allowed to be beautiful and brilliant if you were pretty it meant you were a slut it meant you were easy pickings for you know some boy would it a hideous phrase like no yeah she was demonized in this way because she went away and was falling for a boy like right what's more

pure or sweet than that right she's 20 years old in Italy and yeah knew knew a guy for seven days and had a crush and was exploring it and like a man would never be judged for that but we've all been through it and it was so crazy because she and i got to talk about our experiences granted very different but also similar kind of cousiny if you're all with media at a young age and then to talk with monica about it you know the the woman who knows maybe better than anyone what the media can do to a young woman who's just a human, who's fallible and also really, really intelligent. Was it crazy for you to get to know and then get to embody Amanda, but also to have Monica Lewinsky be involved and just to be able to hear their stories for your own kind of, like emotional actor grounding? Yeah, all of it.

human as an actor like both of those women are so inspiring on how they've come out the other side of being treated like that and so that was just on a on a human level listening to them and and being inspired by that by just two strong badass women yeah was amazing to be in the presence of and in terms of playing the part it just made me even more passionate to tell her story as authentically as possible and like show as much as possible what she was going through moment to moment nobody knows that like yeah is there something that you learned from her you know while you guys were getting close and you were figuring out how to portray this something that maybe you hadn't known so everything i i mean

there were things that I it's like it's everyone's guilty of it like of course I assumed how she felt in prison yeah of course I assumed how she felt during the interrogation but that's all like that's part of the problem right it's like reading the headlines and being like oh she probably felt like this but it's like no and now the show can show

how she really was in these moments and what What shocked me and what was so beautiful to me is how she handled it every step of the way. Like, of course, prison was traumatic and unfathomable. But the way she accepted her reality and turned it around and to be like, well, if I'm here, I'm going to make the best of it. and every day gave herself a purpose, whether that was learning Italian or helping other prisoners who couldn't read or write. Yes. Like, what she made of an unimaginable moment is so inspiring.

And, like, I can't imagine having that mentality in a situation like that. So, I mean, it's, it takes the idea of resilience and, like puts it in the stratosphere to me. Yeah, exactly. It's going on a solo vacation times. Oh my God, like that's a space. And for real, not for like 10 minutes, like on an actual space mission. Spaceship alone.

You're driving it. Yes. Like you're just there. It's really, I mean, it's so incredible. And to your point, for our friends at home, you'll remember from Amanda's interview that she, I mean, she was doing justice work in prison, helping these women not only learn skills, but defend themselves. Yeah. And to, to take a situation which I think the world, knowing what was true on the other side, would have been like, totally okay if you curled up in a ball and cried for

forever, which is what I was expecting, like, gone through. That's like the natural, that's where I would go naturally to be like you must be that must have ruined you you know but to hear that it didn't was like you can get through you can like there is a way out of things and something i really appreciate is is her willingness to be very forthcoming about yes i this was traumatic i am different than i was before, but that doesn't mean I don't have the capability to have purpose, have joy, have a life on the other side. And I'm really inspired by the way that she and Monica, and I know you as her in the show, model the sort of human ability to expand to hold those oppositional things at the same time. Yeah. I mean, just in terms of,

of playing her before at all and then now is like working on how to differentiate those spirits Yes, like your energy Yeah, yeah

and what that difference was, that's not the obvious thing. Okay, I love this. This is like the inside the actor's studio moment we get to have. What was your, as an actor, what was the thing that helped you find that how did you find the before and the after spirit of this woman for yourself i mean most importantly speaking to her and being like just trying to understand where she was at

mentally but it just felt like the the lights were like it was on a dimmer it was kind of like the spirit was on a dimmer a little bit and which isn't that's just that's just how i decided it to differentiate it. That's not coming from Amanda, but just like in terms of showing it in a series where we don't have time to see the full evolution of it is, yeah, having that, the spirit you do see in the beginning, the, like, naive, excited, whimsical, curious, like, life is huge to, I just. just went through something so incredibly like unimaginable but still have the strength like yeah that's that was the crazy thing it was like yes she had gone through so much at that point

in the present day but was still on a mission to like take control of her life and that that was like there was no point of weakness it was all um coming up with a plan to to persevere through it and just like get through it and that was the interesting thing to find as opposed to being like happy and then she's a little bit less happy like it's like it's like human meat yeah and she's so much deeper than that too like she and she's so articulate with her emotions and her feelings that like that helped me so much that helped me so much be like oh yes of course you're explaining this so well so that let me try and and show that as best as possible yeah so we can really be in it with you in a way yeah blessing and all i had to do is

think of her in those moments to like feel anything and now for our sponsors and it strikes me too for you at this point in your career to have gone through this journey and to have learned with her, essentially, and also with Monica, does it help you kind of reframe your own experience in the public eye with the internet or with the press, whether, by the way, it's good or bad about yourself, like, however other people talk about you, you know? Because for me, vulnerably, it's always been weird and it still feels weird. Yeah. You know, I have these moments where I'm like, out of a whole life, this is the thing you want to bug me about? I know.

For what? I know. And I'm like knowing that people don't care also. Yeah. Like all of this talk and publicizing things that like ultimately no one cares. Like they don't. They're just like trying to make money. Whatever the motive is.

Yeah, exactly. And that's how it was with Amanda. Her story was selling. People didn't care. that they were scrutinized her. They just saw the words that was going to then cash them a check. Like, they don't connect

these people in the public eye, like actors or, you know, Amanda going through this as people. And that's a... Yeah, they forget you're human. Exactly. That's a scary part. That's a scary part about it. Yeah.

And being around both Amanda and Monica and knowing their stories, of course that's like, scary because there's a version of that that is of course possible being an actor. But I also saw how they handle it and I'm like, okay, that doesn't have to, if God forbid that happens in a harmful way, there is a way to handle it. So in a way it helps you not necessarily feel so pressurized by it yeah yeah yeah and it exists like if it's not in the if it's not on the

headlines of huge news outlets it's on instagram it's on tic-tok like there's no way around not being spoken about good or bad and i don't know just delete the apps from time to time i just don't look at i really just don't look at it i don't either you can't all right care Your publicist is like, damn it, that was a great article. Yeah, yeah, it's hard for me. The phrase I always come back to that a friend said to me many years ago that my audience probably knows I've said ad nauseum by now, but is don't compare your insides to other people's outsides. Because that's what that is. I like that.

Whether it's in print or it's online or it's online or it's online. Anything on a screen or in a paper is just the outside. Totally. And we are three-dimensional, multifaceted, wonderful, fallible, messy people. Yeah. And like the minute you start to try to flatten yourself to compare to some flat thing somewhere, it's like not good. So it's dangerous. It's a dangerous game.

Yeah. I say toss it out and be in your three-dimensional. Yeah. And yeah, have confidence in who you are and that you know who. who you are and no one else does so now that the whole series is out there for people and like that's my I'm like dot dot dot tap on the mic you all better be caught up at home and if you're not catch up but now that it's out in the world and it's it sort of has breathing room of its own how do you hope it'll reframe Amanda's legacy I just hope people understand her more

like that was that was my goal through it all like of course as a show I hope people are able to just reconsider maybe their preconceived ideas and form an opinion based on these facts and what you see in the show as opposed to the crazy headlines and the bias that was fed to them but for me I really I really hope people like are reminded that this was a 20 year old girl going through this. And I tried to understand her as best as possible so that the audience did too. And I just hope it humanizes her a bit more because it's crazy to see people still not see her as a human being. So I hope that comes across and changes people's minds. yeah i think i think that's the most powerful piece of this medium we all get to play in yes when you just read about something it's so easy to judge a person things seem very black and white but when you watch a human go through something when you watch a character make a mistake learn a lesson grow whether that's a fictional character or someone you know real like in this experience for you

I think we're so much more willing to see their humanity and root for them, even when they screw up. Yeah. And I hope that this woman who was accused of screwing up in front of the whole world who didn't gets a little bit of relief, you know? It feels to me like she really deserves to be let up off the mat. She does. She really does. I hope she feels that. I hope she feels like this story was told in the way that.

she wanted it to be. I know she's so proud of the story. I hope I won't get in trouble for revealing this, but I obviously I agree with her. You did the most tremendous job on this show. But on our show, she literally said she was so blown away by you and that she thinks you should win all of the awards. And that is a direct quote. That's so sweet of her. So I hope we get to speak that into existence for both. Oh, that's, I'm just happy. She's happy. He was like, I just wanted her. I like, after her story being told for her, for 18 years, she had to feel good about how she was being portrayed. She deserves that.

Yeah. Yeah. Everyone, everyone deserves to tell their own story. It's just rare that we get to. Tell me about it. yeah well when you look out you know at what's ahead third season of your show this this amazing project wrapped up for you what whether it's actually professional or personal what feels like it's next what feels like your work in progress i feel like i would love to figure out a better work

life balance I feel like I haven't figured out real life yet and feeling as purposeful as I do when I'm working and I know that that's not my purpose so it's like I feel like finding that is really important to me right now and doing a thing that that do give me purpose when I'm not at work and make me happy and figuring out a routine and like because I'm it's like a free for all and I and I just would love to work on figuring that out a bit more and balancing that out and like decorating my home that I've had for two years that's like has nothing in it and like creating a sanctuary and just just making you know. know, putting, piecing my life together piece by piece so that I feel just more solid and grounded

when I'm not doing the thing I love, which hopefully is a lot and for a long time. But still got to figure out the real important, the real important part. I would love some advice if you have many. Oh, I have so many thoughts. I've made these mistakes so you don't have to. Well, I ask actors all the time because it's like, no matter what age. Like, I've asked way older actors and they haven't figured it out. But I know people my age who have. Like, I don't, I don't know what it takes to figure it out, but I, yeah, I would love some. Well, I think you have to give yourself like a little bit of permission to not have it figured out because the conundrum of us is there's never a routine yeah you go to work and you learn your 10 pages and then you immediately

have to forget it and they don't give you your call time until you wrap you can't make any plans you can't book a dentist appointment you don't even know if you can go to your best friend's wedding and if you really get addicted to a routine the absolute irrelevance of your routine and your needs will make you crazy when you have to go to work.

But if you can't figure out a routine that is something you can hold with an open hand, then when you wrap a job, if you're like me, you'll spend five days spinning around your house and circles going, well, which thing should I do first?

And you'll beat yourself up because you haven't gotten anything meaningful done in five days. So it's like, on either end you feel a little paralyzed of course of course either a total lack of choice or an overabundance of choice i feel like it's taken me until like about the last year really to start to get into a a middle ground of the two kind of thing like i've started to learn to ride the seesaw and now it feels fun that's great so i have some i love that i won't be like i have advice for you

like none of us know what we're doing that never changes but i do have a few things that are like try these and see which one works. God, I would love to hear it. I also love, like, I think it's why I wanted to be an actor too, because I love the idea of no routine. I'm, like, not a type A person

at all. I'm I love not having a plan and I love making a plan like right now. Yeah. And the idea of traveling to different places and that, like, that was a huge part of me wanting to do it

of like experiencing different cities and people and whatever um but i think i'm like it's more of like a fear of when i get older and i'm done with that mentality like am i going to be stranded in like an empty house with a mattress on the floor and be like help in like two egg crates for your side tables so i'm like it's damage control yeah yeah but but yeah okay i don't know i have a list i have a list okay great thank you for today i'm so happy for you love the show. I mean, I love all the shows, but particularly this, this project is just so amazing and you crushed. Thank you so much. Congrats. Yay.

Thank you.