Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Joanna "JoJo" Levesque

Episode Date: October 24, 2024

Singer, songwriter, and actress Joanna "JoJo" Levesque was only 13 years old when she broke onto the music scene with her smash hit song, 'Leave (Get Out).' Her career was skyrocketing straight to the top, but then she disappeared from the spotlight. JoJo is finally telling her side of the story. JoJo opens up to Sophia about her decision to write down her experiences in her new memoir, the power of owning your story, growing up with parents who struggled with addiction, misconceptions people have regarding fame and success, and the nearly decade-long battle with her record label. Plus, JoJo talks about feeling stronger than ever, advice Cyndi Lauper gave her, being on Broadway, and her new music! JoJo's new memoir, "Over the Influence,” is available now.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hi, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hi, friends. Welcome back to Work in Progress. I need you all to know that Teenage Me is absolutely losing her mind right now because today we are joined. by one of my then and now heroes, Jojo, Joanna Jojo Levesque, chart-topping and award-winning, singer, songwriter, actress, and now first-time author. You probably know Jojo who burst onto the scene with her self-titled album at just 13 years old. Her breakout smash, Leave Get Out, was an anthem for me and probably all of you. it led to platinum records and a string of accomplishments and a high-profile wildlife that then seemed to just stop.

Jojo seemed to evaporate from the charts and none of us knew where she'd gone and it turned out she'd been embroiled in a legal battle to win back her music and her own voice from her label where she was trapped for years. And in her new memoir over the influence, Jojo holds nothing back. She brings her against the odd story of adversity and triumph to center stage, talking about being raised in a household with parents who both battled addiction and depression, to emerging victorious in this seemingly never-ending lawsuit with her record label, to finally figuring out how to put these fragmented pieces of herself back together after a period of rebellion and betrayal of self that made her just feel mad. She takes all of us through these turbulent years that led her to where she is now,

releasing new music under her own imprint, performing in shows and festivals around the world, headlining a Broadway show, and more. This behind-the-scenes look at her life is so personal and so beautiful and so raw. Jojo really broke my heart open in the most beautiful ways as I read this and also made me understand things about myself and my own journey that blew my mind. And I imagine that her story will do the same for you. So let's get into this incredible tale of success and heartbreak and redemption and reclamation and a landing in

resilience that I think is just so unique and so special. Let's talk to Jojo. JoJo, I'm so excited that you're here and especially because normally when I get to sit down with people, you know, I'm meeting them where we are and folks know so much about, you know, people's careers or filmographies or discographies or whatever it is. And I normally like to open interviews asking people to go back to childhood and like examine the through lines. and see if they feel like there's connections between themselves at eight or nine to the person they are today. And what made me so geeked about doing this with you today is that in your memoir, the new book over the influence, which is so beautiful, you really start us as an audience at the beginning. And I was like, oh, my God, she does what I like to do on the podcast in the book. how did you decide to just, like, blow the lid off and let everybody into your world?

Thank you for having me. And I, too, am curious, so curious about patterns and through lines. How did we get here? And what is the reason and, you know, the relationship between things? And I feel like our history and even the history of our families of origin, I think it's such good information in understanding ourselves and our worldviews. And over the influence is an examination of my experience so far. And I spent so much of my teens and 20s being, and I'm not saying, I'm over over it completely, but so much confusion and chaos inside myself and my experience. So I think in like putting it in black and white, I wanted to start making sense of it for

myself because as human beings, we're designed to share and to connect and to like be storytellers. I just, I just put it out there. And I was scared and I was like, who am I to do this? Like, is this the ultimate self-indulgence? Am I just being like, what's the point? But it was just a good exercise. And I think that everybody, everybody has a story to tell. I believe that so wholeheartedly.

And we can choose to look at things negatively. We can choose to look at things as pivot points and opportunities and things that made us grittier or, you know, resilient or whatever. And it's been a, it was just a really interesting. experience. I know I've said that word so many times, but like, that's what I think about. No, I get it. And I think there's something really profound also about deciding to own your story, not just as a human, but particularly as a woman in the world. Because when you gain whatever relative level of success, especially as a woman, as an independent woman, the world then sort of says, well, who do you think you are? And men who write memoirs are never accused of being

self-indulgent. But women are like, oh, does my story matter? Is this self-indulgent? Is anybody going to care? And then people will say, like, nobody asked, why do you think anyone? And it's like, y'all don't do that to men. But at the end of the day, as humans from the time we're born, we only learn by mirroring each other. We learn. by observing each other. And I think when we can stop performing and actually say the hard thing, do the hard thing, be honest about the toughest things, we give permission to other people to do that as well. And so when you're able to do that as a woman, especially as a young woman, a successful woman, a young, beautiful, successful woman, all the things that the world wants to like take

you down the minute you achieve and you do it anyway, it's like it takes compounding courage so I'm here for it I'm like yeah girl like put it on the page do the thing but it's exactly what you said and it's like people who have written their stories particularly well people of all ages but I think of someone like

Jeanette McCurdy by her being courageous it unlocked something within me to say you know what let me have the audacity to think about myself as a storyteller as someone who's actually going to write it as well she you know she didn't have a ghost

writer, and that gave me the balls, I think, to be like, okay, we're the same age. Like, I know I don't have experience in this, but I have so much heart and desire to get it right for myself and also to stop counting myself out of being an authority in my own life and of being the one who can, you know, guide my own course as opposed to looking for somebody else who might know better or whatever like my voice is just as important as someone else's and that's I believe that for everybody you know but it takes us owning that and sticking our claim in that and I will say that that's what I'm grateful to be on the other to be like on the other side of 30 now because in my 20s I wouldn't have had the balls to to take up space I didn't I felt so

ashamed, you know. I fully agree. I felt that way all through my 20s. I felt like my life was just starting at 30. And what I realized is I was terrified through my 20s. The entire decade of my 30s, I was growing a lot, but I think I was trying to figure out how not to be afraid. And then I finally stopped trying to do it everybody else's way at 40. So like the way, the way I thought things started for me at 30, where I was like, I can't wait to be 30. I turned 40 and I was like, thank God we made it through that. So like, let me just tell you it only gets better. From this vantage point and having taken the reins for yourself and put all of this down.

And I think especially when you're an artist, there's something about getting it out and on paper that allows you to process in ways you don't even know you're not processing. before you do that because like you've been trained your whole life to perform and be good and be professional and be on top of it and you don't even know when you're just performing and not living and when you get your life out on paper and you get to read it and you get to experience it like from this point with it all down and bound in a book do you feel like you can kind of see that through line in your journey back to your childhood now in ways you couldn't before you wrote it all down. Absolutely. And the big sister, I mean, I'm an only child. And like me, big, you are. So we're a specific breed, you know, where it's, it makes you into a

certain type of person. And I think, cool. But I'm just saying, the big sister within me to my inner child. I feel I want to just wrap her up because she was, seeds of confusion were planted very, very early and shaky ground, instability, and fight, flight, freeze. My nervous system was really conditioned around getting validation from outside sources and influences and also looking for that adulation, that stimulation, that sense of everything's going to be okay because I didn't feel like things were going to be okay growing up with parents who both really identified with their addictions. And I'm saying it like that because I don't like to, like in the program, which is where my, I kind of grew up in Alcoholics Anonymous because both my parents were either

into narcotics or alcohol and a lot of my family too. And, you know, I just, it was weird to me that I mean like I have an aunt who has like 50 60 years of sobriety now and she still calls herself an addict and I'm like that's a lot of humbleness but I don't know it's also kind of wild you know what I mean I'm like you're not just that but I respect that like whatever works for you for real yeah who knows but I saw a lot of struggle and um difficulty as a kid I felt like this gift that I had been given my voice and the reaction that I would get from people when I would use it,

I was like, oh, this could take us out of, like, this could be the thing that changes our lives. Like, I could thing on Diva's Live. Like, I could have a video on pop-up video, you know, like each one of TV. And I was like, maybe this could be our ticket out of this thing, our little apartment. And how wild that that voice,

if you performed, if it was positive, if it was art, if it was pop, if it was sexy, if everything was happy, you could get out. It doubles down on the, if you're good enough, little girl, you can save everyone around you. And if you save people by being good, you can never be sad, you can never be bad, you can never be heartbroken, you can never be afraid. and like the pressure of that like I relate to you in that so hard because the generational trauma and the things that my family came from it was like I have to be the perfect one they did all of this for me yeah the you know the classic immigration story the class all of it I've got to

be good good good good and and being good actually made me incapable of being fully my for a really long time because I ignored everything that wasn't good and I just leaned in to like be a camp counselor, be a set leader, be a good teammate, be a good. And it's like you're only half of yourself. I mean, Sophia, I still find myself doing that very, very much so. And it's like a but I do have more awareness than I did years ago. I think my awareness is sharpening and I find myself. I'm checking in with my heart. I'm like, is it open? Is it closed? Is it in? Am I being Robo Joe? That's like people around me will be like, oh, I mean, sometimes, you know, or I can clock it in myself. Like, I'm acting like a robot. I don't even know how to not be

performative. And it really is an experiment right now. Well, and I think there's something really unique too for women in our industries like when we analyze the world look we know the world's not working very well for us right for women but we also know the world's not working well at least in our country for men like depression and suicidality and all these things yeah and in a way I think when you are a woman who who is the head of your industry household it's a lot of the pressure that men feel in the patriarchy like the dads and the breadwinners and the whatever and so we get the double feature of like the pressure of a patriarch and all the shit that happens to us as women in patriarchy. And it is very hard when you know like if I eat everybody eats. If I do

well, everyone on my team can pay their bills. And so if I don't, they can't. It's a lot of pressure. You're so right to highlight that. It's really interesting. And I think that I don't know if you relate to this, but it certainly has been, it's been a challenge for me in relationships, in, you know, in relationships with men, where I don't want to be the man and the woman, or I don't want to emasculate someone, but I have certainly done that. I have certainly, you know, been like, I literally don't need you for anything because I've done all this and I do do all this and that is so not the energy that I I don't believe that but I think I left people feeling that way you know what I mean because of just being in

go mode and when you we all contain many different sides we all have masculine and feminine and you have to really be in touch with that masculine side to produce and perform and and show up, and especially when you're like in cycle, if you're like on a project or you're, you know, like right now I'm performing on Broadway and I'm promoting a book and I'm putting out new music and I really have to check in with myself in the morning and night to actually just like put a hand

on my heart and, you know what I mean? Yeah, to ground yourself. Yeah. To make sure that you're being and not just doing. It's big. And now for our sponsors. It's interesting because you talk in the book, like we're talking about patterns, right? And you talk about how you thought for a time that being surrounded by addiction and having it be overt and discussed in your home would prevent you from experiencing that.

But that actually you found yourself struggling with it with the alcoholism and that. the substance addiction. Like, do you feel like it was a gradual shift to those patterns coming up in you? Or was there a time like you're saying where maybe you didn't have the practice of checking in? And then the numbing got easy. It was definitely about numbing. I didn't practice for a long time. I didn't have tools. And I was just so afraid. So afraid of I didn't want to become like my parents. I felt self-righteous like I was already better than them and like stronger and like they don't have careers and they can't get it together and my dad lives off the government

and he just gets high all day and blah blah blah and I'm like you know I'm never that could never be me and I think it made me feel you know have this grandiose sense of self that I'm just being honest about it. I'm not proud of that. And I remember, you know, him coming to like pick me up one day because he lived in New Hampshire. And when I was living in Massachusetts, I was like 18. And I was like, you know, I can't get in the car with you. Like you're high. And he's like, you know, don't throw stones in a glass house, Joanna. Your addiction is like Arnold Schwarzenegger in your backyard pumping iron just waiting for you to have a weak moment and just, you know, it's coming for you. You got it on both sides. And I'm like, don't speak that over my life.

And I was like, I don't never be me. And the way I think about addiction is kind of how Dr. Gabor Matei speaks about it, which is that it's this hungry ghost inside of us that is this insatiable monster, really, that needs more things, you know, to make it feel okay, to get outside of reality, to get outside of the truth. and I just didn't want to I could not sit with myself for extended periods of time for you know until my mid-20s probably and so for me it wasn't like oh I was addicted to cocaine

or I was addicted to alcohol like I just didn't discriminate with getting out of my mind you know what I mean I could get out of my mind with diving into a relationship and emmeshing with you know just sex and love and with substances

and you know a binge or you know whatever like I was just or work I would be in the studio nonstop and nothing was coming from it and I was like oh I just got to keep going because it's obviously and then I was like all of it is my fault

not only is fucking up in this area but you know my work isn't good enough because you know and then I'm in this lawsuit and I don't legally own my voice And it was just a, it was a perfect storm for me to really hurt myself. And because I was so hurt, I was so in pain, I was so confused, didn't have a support system or tools around, you know, we just, in the 2010s, it was different. It just felt like the same conversation of the health weren't being had. No.

And especially the way that young women were treated in the industry. It was so dark. And I mean, I felt like my, my job was to stay, just to be skinny and wait. Do you know what I mean? Like, be skinny and just look good. And whenever we're ready for you, like. Yeah. I know that sounds horrible, but this is literally what I was told. Yeah. Well, and it's a really, it's so hard because you achieve this thing that you've always wanted to do. And then, because. Because. Because... because you're rare and talented and you've made it in some way, then they tell you you don't really deserve it. It's like a very weird push and pull. It's like they want you and they know you're special, but if you know you're special, then it risks their ability to use you. So it's a constant churn. And, you know, it took me a long time to understand how women would be used as pawns for everyone for the tabloids for the TV for the music for the thing and for a long

time I remember feeling like there's so much brilliance and service and intellect in me why is this what you want to write about why is this what you want to ask me about and eventually I had to go oh because an intellectual woman with opinions is not as valuable to you as a tabloid scandal so you'll make a scandal where there isn't any or you'll blame a woman for a man's indiscretion or you'll like oh I see it's a it's a churn and burn and it's part of why I've been so like I've felt so deeply for you even though this is our first day connecting like reading the book I was like oh my god this woman I just want to like protect her at all costs it's so much the way I feel watching like Demi's documentary you know and and everybody from her, you know, to Allison and all these women that I've known sort of, you know, in acquaintance ways in the industry, everybody talking about what this has been like. And I think about, you know, for you, signing to a label at 12, it's like it's such a mark of your talent. And also you had no ability to advocate for yourself inside of this world because, You were a kid.

How have you, as you've aged, made sense of that? Because you mentioned, like, you knew that singing could be the way out. You knew you could save yourself and your family. You knew of the pressure at a young age. But looking back at it now, like, how do you big sister, that little girl? So we've spoken to the pressure for sure, but, yo, it was a pleasure. Like, I loved and still loved. singing more than anything love it it is my joy it is such a beautiful such a wonderful

experience when I'm really connected to that gift and not trying to achieve a certain thing which is what was which is I want to be so clear because I feel like there can be a misconception when you start to share these things like if me or Demi or Allison or sharing things and it's like are you are you looking for people to feel bad for you like I'm like that's so not the case my life is I love my life and I'm very very grateful and I've had a lot of really weird experiences really tough ones really great ones but it shaped me into into the person I am and I'm really cool with her today but what I want to highlight about starting so young is exactly what you said that like it doesn't allow you to shape an authentic sense of

when you are not a person but you're a product and you have so many cooks in the kitchen and you don't go through those normal developmental stages people aren't really honest with you people are treating you weird yeah you're getting all yeses when people like wouldn't would normally say no you're not having to go through things like that so how do I and as somebody who was bullied a lot in in elementary school and middle school and then became famous still in middle school, I, you know, still kind of deal with sometimes when I walk into a room feeling like I'm weird. And I'm okay with that, but I'm like, oh, people don't really like me. I shouldn't really be here. I don't really fit in anywhere. I have that too. Big. Isn't that

crazy? Yeah. And I do think it's what you said. It almost makes me sad that you feel like you have to do the thing and get ahead of it and be like, don't get me wrong. I don't want you to feel bad for me. I'm very grateful. It's like, it's not that you're not. But it is this weird thing where it's like you have to clarify always that there was good even though there was bad. It's like it's okay to say some things have been really amazing and some things have been really fucked up. Like it just is and it's hard. And yeah, it's hard when you're a kid.

It didn't happen to me as early. Like I went through a lot of bullying, a lot of like even in high school being sort. of like brought into the like cool click but held at the bottom of it like I was the bottom layer of it and and so it was like you're in but we're going to make fun of you relentlessly like it's weird I totally relate to that right and I felt like I could never figure it out and then it was college and then I went and started working on one tree hill and then all my college friends were like you know it was the era of like the clubs in L.A. and they'd be like we want to go here and get us a table here and do this and I'd be like okay I'm coming home for the weekend let's all go out and then it was like

what you think you're important you think we're supposed to kiss your ass and I was like well no but you you asked me to get the because you said that wait I don't and I I didn't have the the language and the understanding that I have now then so I spent you know the first 10 years of my career when it looked great from the outside like on this big TV show feeling constantly paranoid that I was doing something wrong. That I was too much or not enough or things were too available or not available enough because I wasn't on like a serious show on HBO or like everything was always something was wrong. Yep. And I feel really grateful that for a lot of us, this period of our life has happened in the normalization of therapy and the, um, the common conversations around

like trauma and, and the spectrum of experience from good to bad. Like, I asked my mom, I was like, how did you guys do this with no therapy? You know, I can't even imagine. But it's like, it is weird that you always feel like because you're, quote, famous, you have to couch what was hard for you in gratitude. Yeah, I hear you. I think that people are so curious about what it's like to be in positions of power and access, relative. Like, I don't have that much.

Well, exactly. You know what I'm saying? But my life is, like, I have a lot to be grateful for. I can move in comfort and ease. You know what I'm saying? And I think people are curious about that. And some people are jealous about that. So I don't know, for me, I just feel like, because I think there are a lot of misconceptions about what it actually feels like and what it actually does and the isolation that it can create, the confusion that it can create, particularly from a young age.

I just, I like to speak to the, I think people just think about it not in a holistic way of like, okay, yeah, all this is true. And then what about this? and I think that's some of the things that I wanted to explore in the book too not because I'm looking for a badge of honor because like Right

You're not trying to have a pity party You're actually trying to be more real Yeah I'm interested in I'm a curious person And I'm like we talked about From the beginning like Yeah

What was it like? What made you this type of person And why are you so understanding Or why are you so You know, wanting to see all sides because I've had a lot of different experiences. I've been at the, I've seen highs, I've seen lows, I've been heartbroken, I've broken hearts.

And now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy, and I think you will too. I think it's really important to embrace the full experience. And I think, I don't know if you experience this, sometimes when I get asked to like speak to students, I'm like, listen, I don't want to ruin your dream. But what I want you to have is a realistic dream. Like acting students?

Yeah. Any kind of artist, I'm like, I don't want you to think that you're going to get on set and that life is going to be rosy. Right. It really, I try to think about it in terms of physics. Like the pendulum swings in both directions. So the more incredible things that happen to you, the harder your life is going to get also. Like, that's just science.

It's not a personal failing. it's not, it's just about equal and opposite, you know, reactions to every action. And that has really helped me. And I think it's part of why I caught myself reading your memoir being like, yes, exactly. I haven't had the exact experiences you have. But I understand what it is to try to navigate through these things you talk about, not feeling like you fit in, feeling like you're too much, you know, having these experiences that are normal for a teenager, but they get magnified in this way. And, you know, it took me back in certain ways to my own, you know, teen and college years and my first years on my first show because so much of your music was a landscape to those times

in my own life. And I was like, this is such a trip. And I remember even then thinking, like, well where did she go like where'd our favorite where'd our favorite gal go like you're on so many of our nostalgia mixes that my best friends and I trade around all the time and it was so interesting to read about what was happening to you behind the scenes and how you got trapped in this label deal because now people know more about it we know about what taylor went through and she re-recorded all her albums and we're having these conversations about who owns music as we should. And you were struggling with all this in a time where nobody was talking about it yet.

You couldn't talk about it. So what was it like to feel silenced, but also to keep fighting? Hmm. I mean, it was so maddening. And I was going to go. So I put out my first album, my first two albums. 13, 15 had, you know, both went platinum and sold millions of records around the world. And I had, you know, a couple really, really massive songs.

And then I was going to wait until I was 18, so I wouldn't have to like, because I just wanted to work. I was like, I don't want to be, I don't want to have to think about school. I just want to like. Yeah, the set teacher and the thing. Yeah. So we're going to wait until I was 18, but then my label lost their distribution. And I was beholden, as you would be. in a contract, but hold into whatever they were going through with their bad business dealings.

So then I was kind of a, just attached to their wagon, basically, wherever they went and they weren't a functioning label anymore. So because I didn't own my voice, because in the contract, and anything that I did in a commercial way with my voice needed to be approved by them, and they just no longer were doing that. Like, if I got an opportunity to be in a movie and I was going to singing in the movie, they would just say no, because I don't even know why. You know what I mean? It started to feel like they wanted to sabotage me. I don't know. I don't feel that way today. I just don't choose to look at it that way. At the time, I'm sure, it was like horrible. It was very confusing too because these were my father figures, my uncle figures, my brothers,

like these men, you know, really took me and shaped me and they felt like family. I mean, the production company I was assigned to was called Da Family. we were de family. And it was just heartbreaking, heartbreaking. And then to be in, I was going to go to college at Northeastern University

for cultural anthropology and I was working with the sociology department. They were like, you can do this kind of a private, like a distance learning program. Like you can do some virtual, you can come to the school.

They were going to work with me. And then the label was like, well, why don't you come to L.A. And we can work on music. And I was so like, oh my God, they're ready. they're ready to work on music, I'm like, I don't care about college anymore. I'm going to go do that.

So that was kind of heartbreaking too, and then it never panned out. And I was just on the hamster wheel of making music and of seeing fans on MySpace at the time being like, you know, what happened? Like, why aren't you releasing music? Yeah, where'd you go, girl? Where'd you go? And not being able to give them a concrete answer because I also felt like I needed to play the game. Like whenever my label was ready that I needed to not burn the bridge completely with them because they still, I was still under constant. with them. It was so frustrating. My family was worried about me. You know, they were like,

you just go to college, Joe. You're smart. You know, why don't you just do that? And I'm like, no, I felt like I had to prove something to them. Like, I didn't want any worry about me. I put the weight of the world on myself. And nobody asked, nobody asked me to do that. But I, that's the position I assumed. And then to cope with it, you know, I had seen how my family coped. And, seemed like drinking to excess was the way to do it. You know, I come to Irish Catholic, South of Boston, the working class family, and that's, I've seen that a lot. So that's kind of where it began with being in that lawsuit

and feeling frustrated and also being very embarrassed and ashamed that I wasn't on the trajectory that people kept telling me. In the industry, people were like, oh, my God, you're this, you deserve the world and you're supposed to be the biggest star. And I'm like, yeah, I am, aren't I? You know what I mean? Yeah. And it was just a lot of shit.

I'm having this like mind-blowing kind of moment because this idea of your label being literally named a family. People do that a lot on sets. They're like, oh, we're a family. We're a family. But families can be super toxic. And the sort of rude awakening and like trauma. I know I went through on realizing that like our family on my show also had like really toxic men and power in it and that the minute that you don't serve the power structure you become the enemy of the family like it's it's such whiplash because you think like well these are my people and it's like no they want you to feel like they're your people because that makes money for everyone and that can be so painful. And like, it gives me this, oh, because when everything in your life feels really out of

control, sometimes the thing you think of is, well, if I'm in the right relationship, if I have real love in my life, like that can be healing. At least if work is toxic, home can be good. Yeah. And I can look back at my history and see when work has been its most toxic that I have made a home out of people that had no business feeling like home to me. Woo! I so relate, Sophia.

And it's, I'm having like, I literally am like, we're doing a podcast, but I feel like I'm in therapy. Oh my God. Because you just, you clicked something for me in my own brain that I've been ruminating on for a long time. But like, it just clicked like a level deeper. As I've thought about your book, I'm like, wait, yes. Yes, this.

this well mind grown it's so helpful to to be mirrors for each other and to you know to just workshop this stuff i love i love that how do you think you started to identify that because you you know you've talked a lot about how even love love addiction sex addiction like these things aren't as talked about as substance based addiction and for you to talk about this again so openly just so in awe of you. Like, how do you think you started to identify, like, oh, I recognize the pattern of a substance as a numbing agent from my family. How do you begin to see relationships as a numbing agent for you? When does that light bulb come on? Starting therapy, starting the journey definitely helped me to have more frameworks and more tools and just like more self-awareness,

I think I've always been introspective, but having a professional to bounce things off of and to, you know, have her posed questions to me and all that and to be someone I really trusted with helping to guide me and influence me in a good way. I think that that she didn't, she wasn't like, you're a love addict or you're a sex addict, but it's like you don't discriminate with these things. that you are using to make you numb out to, you know, you like to dissolve into somebody. You've chosen partners that are available to just serve your need for feeling good. Like sex will be a big part of the relationship. They won't really have a lot. I mean, when I was younger, like some of my partners didn't have a whole lot going on in their life. And I was like, I was the one in the position of power.

And I felt like they, you know, wouldn't hurt me because I was so hurt in my family or so hurt, you know, my mom or my dad and so hurt with my career. And I was just looking for security and safety and pleasure and all those things. And I stayed in an on again, off again relationship for a really, really long time because it was just so hard. to step away from somebody who had no boundaries, had no conditions. I could mistreat them. I could step up, be with other people. I could, you know, be unkind. I could be inconsistent. And I was, you know, that, I don't want that. And I didn't want that for them. But they were going to continue to let me. do that and so something had to have to give and I would say after that on again off again dynamic for a long time I had to be like I am so toxic and it's not that I can't have compassion for my

younger self and understand where that came from but I was really moving in very selfish toxic ways. And that's not how I want to live this one life that I have. And that's hard to get to a point where you can see that is really hard. And I imagine when you look at that version of yourself and then you look at where the young version of yourself was sort of made, the different sorts of toxicity in those dynamics, like, how do you say to yourself, okay, I want to shift that? Like, instead of leaning into this behavior that's destructive, I want to lean into this behavior that's constructive. Like, how do you begin to rebuild up instead of to continue to spiral down? I think that starting a process of rebuilding self-trust, because it had

been eroded in so many different ways. So even just checking in with how does it feel when I do this or how does it feel when someone says this or when I'm in this particular environment or just like being more present as opposed to being under the influence of something, constantly being on Xanax or constantly being high on weed or drinking something or you know being dignitized or whatever you know what I mean like I will say I think after my

dad passed away he he lost his struggle with addiction and just with overall unhealthiness mind body spirit that that changed everything for me and I was like

I'm no better than him I'm no better or worse like I was judgment but I always held out hope that he would change and that we would have this amazing relationship it would heal us both and you know all this these things and then I was like oh no one's

like I could die like anytime anybody can no one's coming to save you we I had adopt a perspective of like learned helplessness that I was in this you know that I was a victim of the industry or I was like in you know the people looked at people felt bad for me and and I like wore that

scarlet letter and then I just you know started acting bad in my I made poor choices as a result of the shame and the embarrassment and the and the difficulty so some difficulties that I experienced the deck of cards I had been dealt but I was like okay so so what and now what now what yeah i don't want to die i don't want to hurt others i i had it never got so bad for me like i think of how outspoken demi's been with with their story and you know literally o-ding and like looking at the edge of death and like peeking out and like that was not my experience. But losing my father was a hinge point. Yeah. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. I would imagine, you know, you're talking about Demi's experience,

for example, but a loss like that is also something that will bring you to the edge of an abyss, right? And you just have to say, where do I? go from here and especially after you had so much of your life dictated for you and so many things controlled by people other than you that's right to to say like I don't know what it looks like but I know I have to take control back that's a really profound moment of change in a life Do you think that that knowing that there needed to be a shift is also what enabled you to begin to separate this persona of Jojo that's been out in the world from you, whole human Joanna? I think that when my dad passed, I mean, I've been, I am a spiritual person. I grew up with the framework of Christianity, specifically Catholicism.

I grew up in the choir loft, and I think that, and music for me, and relating to my gift feels very spiritual. Me and my dad had a spiritual connection through music, you know, harmonizing together and feeling empathic with each other and like just being really connected, feeling each other. And I think that when he passed, like since he passed, I continue to feel him. I continue to feel connected to him. I continue to have conversations with him. I continue to see him, like sometimes physically.

Not like really, really, but like sometimes a flash of him in the audience. Sometimes I look back in, you know, in an airport and I'm like, you know, just moments of, moments of delight that take my breath away that I don't need to explain to anybody else because they need something to me. So I'm saying that to say that I think that with connecting to my spiritual self more and with taking solo trips, I started to take solo trips, I realized how like stimulated I had been. I was interested in silence. Like my dad had this quote right here, it's the Dissadirada and it said, go placidly amidst the noise and haste and remember what peace there may be in silence. He always had that in his bathroom, whatever apartment he'd be in. He had this deep

as quote, you know, the whole desiderata. And I'm like, man, he was so deep. I'm like, you know what? He told me he loves the desert. I want to go to the desert. So I went to Sedona, which is another one of my, you know, big meaningful. Beautiful. And I just started to actually take the time to be alone and to be in silence to listen more than I spoke and to not and to take myself off the hamster wheel of like well sort of because I still had many years of doing this and I'm still extricating myself from it in the sense but I'm saying I became really aware that like I was on other people's timelines and I was like you have to do this you have to put out this album blah blah blah blah blah I'm like whoa I was I was about to put out my third album that I had

been waiting 10 years to be able to put out a third album and then my dad passed and that changed my life and I'm like okay so life does not ever go the way you think it's going to go I thought this was supposed to be you know the big thing and I'm like I'm not ready to act like a bad bitch now yeah life is not about that Joanna like I'm not okay well I just talk about myself and the third person that's gross but you know know what I mean? I was not okay and I couldn't pretend and I needed to sit with that part of myself as opposed to be performative. I didn't get that right all the time but nobody gets everything right all the time though but I think even that instinct for you to name yourself is like

when you zoom out and look at your life you got to say no I can't go be that performance version of myself right now. I have to, I have to be here and be still. At least it's been moments. I had to carve out. I had to have more balance. Yeah. I had been focused on work since I was like six years old. And at 24, I was like, oh, I think my priorities are not right. Yeah. Or that you get so used to the speed like i'm still trying to figure out how not to feel guilty or sad if i take a day off and it's like i don't always have to be on every call and every zoom and every schedule on everything like a day you know like but i'll take i'll have a day i'll have an afternoon and i panic because i'm like well it's i haven't had a free afternoon in three weeks what should i do with this time i should do

I should do something meaningful with this time. And it's like, or not, I could just stare at the wall or, like, go for a walk. I'm trying to re-parent that, like, overachiever in me. And it sounds like in a way that that period of loss made you, like, big sister, that kid performer in you. Yeah, that either of us had that big. Like, we are that for ourselves. It's beautiful to learn that you can do that. Is that part of what you hope readers take away from the book?

Like, when you really think about, you've put your heart in this hardcover. Like, when you hand it to someone, what do you want them to take away from it? It's really, I've tried to be like, it's none of my business what people take away from it. you know what i mean you know but that's so hard when you're like an impap and an artist you're right it is so hard i do have hopes for this book you know my my hopes are that people think about their own life in maybe a different way or that they're able to see the through lines like you said from the beginning and maybe have compassion for ways that they've been yes maybe have compassion for other people too. You know, my, the way I think about my parents is so different than the way

I thought about them 10 years ago. The way I think about them now is as whole human beings who were people before they were my parents and who, you know, everybody does the best they can with what they have to a certain extent and, and they're mine and I love them. Yeah. And, you know, and a bunch of other stuff too. And so I hope that people feel inspired also to keep going. Because your story doesn't end when people say, you know, you're done. I recently had the opportunity to work with Cindy Lopper on a project. She, you know, it's crazy when people are telling me, like with 20 years as a recording artist,

that like, oh my God, your longevity. And that is something I'm proud of to be able to say, you know, I'm here. and I'm stronger than I've ever been and I have a lot there but in talking with Cindy and I was like you know can you

because she is 71 years old and she is going on her final world tour who knows if it'll really be the final because she's still killing it and I was like you know

not what's your secret because I know it's not a secret but I was like could you give me any advice for like you know how you've just continued to be authentic and reinvent yourself and stay creative and in tune and a lot you know like she's so alive and believable to me and she was like just keep going

she's like just keep going I know it sounds so simple but she was like just do things just keep doing things basically you know what I mean and then she's like and then you look back and be like, I did a lot of cool things and doing things that feel true and always look for the truth and for the connection and for. And I'm just like, oh, you know, she has like 50 years or, you know, 40 or 50 years in the game. I'm like, that's, that's aspirational. And that's inspiring. That's so cool. With Broadway and and with the new single, like, how does it feel? to be sharing your voice again on your own terms it feels very liberating i feel empowered it also feels like a lot like i definitely have to check in with myself and be like yeah okay bitch you're on

broadcast seven shows a week oh you promoted this book that's awesome you just put out a new single like that's a lot of stimulation take a nap take a nap yeah and so I, but the truth is, I feel energized by all this, by all this. I feel really fortunate. I feel like it's not draining my soul. Because I've done many things I felt like it's sucking the soul out of me that I'm doing it and I feel stupid or I feel not connected or I feel, but I really do feel actually connected to this.

I think that this is in resonance with who I am. and who I want to be and how I want to show up in the world. And I think that it will continue to, if I continue to do things that feel like that, then maybe I can create, then maybe I'll be 71 one day looking back and be like, oh, like, you know, I really started trusting myself around that time,

doing things that scared me. Being on Broadway scared me, scares me, you know. Yes. And it's challenging and, but I've lived a lot of my life as an only child and as a solo artist with things being about me and with sharing this book, this is about me and, you know, but being a part of a community, a company on Broadway, it's such a team sport. And that has been one of the greatest joys that I've got to have in the past couple of years is all of us being just, just

just as important as the next and having the relationships with the people behind the scenes and you know just every single department it's it's been really it's been awesome um but i i'm so curious now as to what's going to come next and how i can take these things that i've learned and this the opportunities that i have and support other people on their journeys i have it not just be about me because that's not enough and i want to sell celebrate you for the work that you do and the way that you have, I really mean that. I've always admired you from afar. And I've seen you peripherally, maybe at a protest, maybe at an event, something like that. And I just, you are such a light. And you seem so connected and so purpose driven. And it is people like you that really inspire me to be more and to seek, to seek ways to help and to have conversations that are more that move things forward as opposed to just be like look at that blush or whatever yeah I just really know I always joke I'm like I'm not the good I'm not good

at small talk but like I'll wind up having a version of a therapy session in the kitchen corner at the house already always so now we know now we have each other it's true it's so good as you sit here and you and you think about all of this like because what it looks like to me from the outside um as a person who has been a fan for a long time and who feels like I got all the things from the book like it looks to me like everything is coming back to you all these pieces like you're collecting all of it to be you know your your whole self but I know this is just in a way the beginning. It's a new beginning. It's a reclamation of so many things. And now you, you sit looking at the next phase. So, like, when you look out at life from today, what feels like

your work in progress right now? What feels like my work in progress? Definitely to be as authentic as possible to question when my like default programming comes up and I'm like I need to do this or like I need to know it needs to sound like this or look like this or whatever or get more people's opinions than I really need I'm working on that because I do feel that for me to be able to be of service in the world

that I have to be authentic I have to be not performing. And I think even to be the type of actress that I eventually want to be and to do the work that I want to do in musical theater and beyond, it's not about performance, actually. It's about embodiment and really dropping in and believing and being authentic even in that, you know. Anyway, I'm working on that.

And I'm working on being more vulnerable. even in any type of relationship. Yeah. Dropping my defense. Yeah. I have so many things I'm working on. I love it. And what you said about this reclamation of these different pieces coming together,

that's what inspired this new song that I would be crazy not to mention because it's, you gave it the perfect setup. I was inspired by this art of Kinsugi, this Japanese art of Kinsugi, where like ceramics are broken and then they're together with like gold and so beautiful. And I'm looking at this and I was like, I was just really inspired by it. And so me and some friends wrote this song and it's called porcelain and it's it feels like catharsis to me. And it feels like, you know, I've run, I've run so many miles listening to this song because it just makes me want to go. It makes me want to let go. It makes me want to sweat and cry. And so I wanted to share it with people because it makes me feel those things.

Well, and what an amazing, you know, idea. The metaphor that the cracks are the most precious parts is everything, you know. And we're all just watching. We're all just human Kinsugi, really. Mm-hmm. I love it. Thank you for today. This has been so great.

Oh, my God. You are so amazing. You're such a gem. I'm like, I want to come see your show. We have to hang out. I would love that, Sophia. Thank you so much for your time and your presence here. Awesome.

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