Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Katie Couric

Episode Date: August 8, 2024

Millions of people grew up watching Katie Couric as co-host of NBC's Today Show and in her groundbreaking role as the first woman to solo anchor a network evening newscast. Now, she’s the one calling the shots as the founder of Katie Couric Media. The award-winning journalist, podcaster, and New York Times best-selling author joins Sophia for a wide-ranging chat, including the current state of media, the competitive nature of the news industry, the double standards female journalists face, Katie's current 'work in progress' and a sneak peek of the 9th season of her podcast, 'Next Question with Katie Couric.'See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hi, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Whipsmarties, today we are joined by a member of the Work in Progress family who is here for a follow-up, and I could not be more thrilled. today's guest is none other than Katie Couric. You know her as a legendary American journalist and presenter, the founder of Katie Couric Media, and the publisher of Wake Up Call, an amazing newsletter, which if you're not subscribed to, you need to be.

And as if that wasn't enough, she's also the host of Next Question with Katie Couric. She happens to be one of my favorite journalistic brains, one of my favorite women to talk to about the complexities of modern life and one of the most inspiring people I know because she's always so curious about everyone she meets, whether that's someone she agrees with or someone she might even passionately disagree with. Katie is such an advocate for holding dialectics, the fact that many things can be true at the same time and figuring out how we can all meet and care about each other in the middle. Today, she's here to give us a little preview on season nine of her podcast, on which she dives into a variety of topics with some of the world's

most interesting and influential people to explore the big ideas that are percolating in the zeitgeist, but focusing on slowing down, diving deep, and connecting with each other. Her show, really, for me, feels like a reprieve from a culture that is obsessed with quick hot takes and surface levels and I'll talk. She is helping me, and all of you and all of her listeners, take a breath, be together, and figure out what comes next. Let's hear from Katie. How are you, Sophia?

I'm great. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. Busy, as I'm sure you are. Everybody's so busy, right? Right? Yeah. You know, it's funny you say that I was talking to my therapist about this this morning. And he was saying that, you know, first it was computers and then it was smartphones and then COVID. And each of these kind of world changing either advances in technology or events has further deteriorated the line between personal and professional time. And so now we're all just sort of in this swirl where we're supposed to be on and working and reachable. and responding every second of every day.

And we were just sort of talking about the mental health implications of that about an hour and a half ago. So yes. Yeah. Well, yeah, I've been fascinated by that and how busy, you know, busy has become kind of a weird badge of honor, too. Yeah. You know, it's almost like a humble brag or not really a humble brag, just a brag. And yeah.

And I also think, like, work has changed. I used to think, you know, I used to go to Today Show, do the show, figure out what I was doing tomorrow, maybe do a couple of extra interviews and go home. But now I feel like we feel so scattered because we're doing things for different venues and different platforms and different things. So it doesn't feel as much of, you know, going, getting up, doing a task, focusing on that task. You kind of feel like it's, you're all over the place because you are, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And in a way, to your point, we all used to have a job and then maybe do some support work for the job. But now you're expected to have your day job, whether that's, you know, on a TV series or, you know, a network show like you're referring to. and then you're meant to be a content studio and then you're meant to have a social media presence but it can't just be professional because then you're cold so you're also supposed to produce content

about your life and you're supposed to have time to have a life without always having your phone out but you're expected to always be reachable because now your life is for business verticals and likely multi-city and it's like we're all kind of essentially expected

to be a full crew under one little human umbrella. And it's very strange. Right. And very taxing. And, you know, I think what you and your therapist were talking about is right. I think life used to have a certain rhythm. And now that rhythm has been disrupted by, as you mentioned, 24-7 availability. And, you know, this need or perceived need to have to share everything and post everything and feed this insatiable beast that is social media or various forms of media. So, yes, it's a lot. It's a lot.

And I don't think people, it's almost like a frog in slowly boiling water. I don't think people have appreciated how significantly things. have changed and how our pace of life has undergone this massive transformation. Yeah. Well, what an amazing jumping off point with you, Katie, because part of what I wanted to ask you about today was how you managed to do it all. And it is really interesting, you know, that we find ourselves here. I mean, long-time listeners of the podcast will be so happy to have you back.

newer listeners of the podcast. I'm joined again today by the iconic Katie Couric, who is every bit as inspiring and brilliant as you would assume, and happens to be one of those people who every time I see her in a room opens her arms for me to leap into them and, you know, will text me to check in and see how things are going. And you really manage to seem, I think, to many of your friends and admirers, like someone who has, figured out how to do it all, how to spin all of these plates. And it's so interesting that both on a personal and societal level, you are also reflecting on the impact of all of this. I suppose maybe we're all reflecting on it because we're trying to figure out what this next

sort of wave of life and society looks like. How when you look at these seismic shifts and what they cost, how do you also try to keep the hope alive by considering what these shifts have also offered to us? You know, how do you look at kind of both sides of the coin? Well, you know, I'm on a personal level, I'm really thankful as much as social media has been damaging on a lot of levels, and we can talk about that in a moment. But I'm thankful for disintermediation because it has enabled me to continue doing what I love to do. You know, it's it's democratized and opened up these avenues for people. I was thinking about this today, you know, in some ways it's made it harder because of the proliferation of all kinds of content. And, you know,

when there were gatekeepers and fewer outlets, it was harder to gain entry, but now with so much out there, it's harder to be heard because there's so much competition for our attention. But just on a personal level, Sophia, I'm glad that, you know, when I left, I went to NBC obviously for the Today Show and then CBS Evening News. and then I went to Yahoo to kind of understand this digital landscape better. You know, I think I am very grateful that I can have a voice but not work for a big network news organization. So selfishly, I'm really happy that there are avenues for me to communicate with people to hopefully enlighten them or illuminate a complicated topic.

or share something that I think is useful or even just fun and, you know, slightly entertaining or and so I feel very lucky, you know, I think if I was forced out of the business or, you know, consider too old or whatever it would be that would not allow me to be on a more traditional media platform, I would be really sad. I mean, I think I would find something else some other way. I hope to be useful in the world, but the fact that I can continue doing what I love to do through a podcast, you know, talk to interesting people like you or Renee Fleming about how music impacts your brain or Jim Van der Heye on his really smart book about how to be a better employer and an employee. You know, I'm insatiably curious and I'm just so grateful that I have an outlet. for that still um yes so that's that's the positive um and gosh i don't know that was a great big

honking question you asked me sophia what what was the other part just really jumped in off the off the high dive well that was it you know because i think sometimes especially women like us who are so curious and who love fact finding and we love to understand how these things fit into the greater puzzle of society, life around us. I think we love to learn too. Yes. Yes. I really think that's one of the things that always inspired me as a fan. And then when we became friendly and, you know, I got to call you a friend. I was like, oh my God, that's it. It's curiosity. But sometimes I think curiosity can lead to a bit of overwhelmed because you do learn all the big scary facts. You read all that data. You understand that people are struggling or that these things are.

having negative impacts on teenagers or, you know, all the stuff we all read about. And so I just also love to know what as such a brilliant woman who is so informed keeps you hopeful. And, you know, it's not lost on me as you talk about these avenues opening up and you mentioned gatekeeping. So many of these upper echelons, whether it's, you know, news media, reporting, business, they've, they've held women out for so long. And I remember from the first time you came on the show, you talking about how watching Mary Tyler Moore really inspired you to want to be in the news. And I'd really get a kick out of that because same. Nick at Night reruns were my favorite thing to watch with my parents. And I think about what Mary Tyler Moore would think.

If she could see how, for all of its faults, the democratization of voice and platform, has particularly allowed so many women to flourish. It's a really incredible thing. Well, I think also, you know, more traditional forms of media have recognized that the people who are talking about issues or delivering the news need to look more like the people who are watching it. And I think as demographics have changed as, you know, there's going to be a majority, minority population. in this country by 2044. But as the country's gotten more diverse and as women have made strides, I think they have recognized that these platforms are not the purview of just singularly white men. And I'm very heartened when I not only look at all these platforms where, gosh, I'm amazed at how talented

people are, by the way, Sophia. This is just a little quick sidebar. I'm just amazing. at the people I see who are incredible artists or they can make clothes or they, I mean, there's so much talent out there. I'm so thrilled that people have this outlet for expression. I think they always did, but now they're able to share their passion with so many people. I'm like, wow, look at what this person did. Look at this cake that this person decorated, Nava, you know, Frosted by Nava is one of my favorite follows. She's, it's Sack Proman's daughter, and she was, I think, a pianist or violinist.

I can't remember, but she just decorates cake full time. And she is an incredible artist, and her creations are just beautiful. So, anyway, that's my little sidebar. But I do feel like voices that weren't heard, you know, gosh, I just, I think you, you not only, as I said, look at these platforms, you look at news outlets and cable networks and goodness, it's so much more diverse. And I think that we've come a long way since I got into the business in 1979. I mean, yikes. Absolutely. Right?

I mean, I look back, sometimes I look at old photos when I was at the Today Show and I'm the only woman. Yeah. You know, in the whole group. And now you look at the Today Show and it's just chock a block full of women. And so I think so much has changed and I think it's a good thing. And by the way, I like diversity of all kinds. You know, I like to have male energy there. I like to have female energy.

I like to have people from different backgrounds. I think sometimes we don't appreciate socioeconomic diversity enough, you know, people who grew up in certain circumstances and understand how people are struggling or appreciate certain things that other people may not or people come from rural environments. And, you know, I think that's really important. too. So I'm very, I'm very gratified when I look at how things have changed. We'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors. I even think about, you know, as a younger woman watching, you know, so many of you that really example set for me, you know, knowing I wanted to study theater, but, but for whatever reason, deciding to pursue my desire to study journalism at the same time in college, you know, I looked up

to women like you and Diane Sawyer and Barbara Walters, you know, there were, there were these people I could look at, you know, even in elementary school, I'd beg my mom to pick me up 15 minutes before the bell, so I could make it in time, so I could make it home in time for Oprah to start, you know, like you, you all, you all set these incredible examples for me. And then I think about in my own career, you know, in the early days, bosses that really wanted to pit the women against each other. And they didn't want us to be friends. They didn't want us to like, band together to make demands. And I think about that even, you know, back in the day, I remember hearing the, you know, whisperings, rumblings, whatever that, you know, Katie

Kirk and Diane Sawyer have a rivalry. And I'm like, you did that? Or was that just the media not understanding that there were two of you? No, you know, I've been thinking of, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot because, you know, they're doing a documentary about Barbara Walters. Yes. And I was talking to the director of the documentary. I think this is so interesting because, you know, a lot of industries are competitive. And it's okay to be competitive. Like, I applaud Barbara and Diane and me and Connie Chung and and Peter Jennings and Dan Rather and Tom Brokaw and all these people who are sort of my generation.

They're a little teeny bit older than I am. But, you know, a lot of, you know, if you're a journalist, it is completely. You know, you want to break the story. You want to get the big interview. Yep. And somehow there's a double standard because the men are very competitive too. Yes. But somehow when you put women in competitive situations, it's called, you know, a cat fight. There is no commensurate term for men who are competitive.

And believe you, me, Sophia, they are. extremely intensely competitive. So I find it interesting, and I don't think, you know, it's just, I struggle with this, and I'm still obviously trying to figure it out, but how can you be competitive and supportive at the same time? It's sometimes difficult, and I don't think we ever have conversations about that. Women have the added burden of being competitive, trying to get ahead in their own business, but also supporting other people, other women.

Now, I sometimes wonder, do men have that added burden of being competitive and yet they're supposed to support all the people they're competing against? It's somewhat confusing to me. I love that you're talking about this. And I think a perfect framing, honestly, I just did an interview about this yesterday, you know, as one of the owners of Angel City, I talk a lot about women's sports. Right.

And I was talking about this, because to your point, you, you, Barbara, Diane, Connie, Oprah, like rare air, top tier women in your field. And the men you mentioned, Peter Jennings and Tom Broca, those arenas are all competitive, as you say. But the men are able to compete

and be proficient. professional, ballsy, cutthroat even. But women get called rivals. And I'm seeing this really played out because we are experiencing this gorgeous moment where there are so many more eyeballs on women's sports. Finally, we're all like, welcome to the party, you're late. But you see these people who clearly have never watched a WNBA game, for example, flipping out that Caitlin Clark got checked on the court. And they're saying, well, They've never. These women, they're being vicious. They're jealous of her. She got a shoe contract. And I'm like, do you all know how much less money these women's contracts that are so few and far between are than any of the men's? Like, you're focused on the wrong things. We're still not quite getting to equity. And what it says to me is you didn't look at footage of Stewie's early career or Candace Parker or Lisa Leslie or any of the women who paved these roads into the W. And for some reason, these women that are literally the best female athletes in the country who are out competing on courts like gladiators are essentially being told they're being too hard on each other. And it's like they literally play a physical sport for a living. What are we doing? I think it's this deep-seated gendered, gendered perspective that is baked into us from the almost the get-go. You know, when we start. being socialized, when we start consuming media, when we start, you know, receiving these

messages and making these connections. There's a professor at Harvard who teaches in the ed school, Mazarin Banaji, I think. I interviewed her for an hour I did on gender inequality in Hollywood and Silicon Valley. And she was talking about how our brains, when they're extremely new and still developing, we make these associations, you know, so we associate moms with cooking or taking care of the house and dads with working and now more moms working, but just sort of these messages on societal and gender roles are so baked into our, almost our every cell of our brains that when we see things that seem antithetical to that kind of socialization, it freaks people out.

And so I think seeing women compete in sports is something unbelievably relatively new for a lot of people. And when they see women being tough and as you said, checking and doing all the things that you do when you're a competitive athlete. it almost trips people up in terms of their expectations. So I still think we're in a transitional period for opening up so many avenues for women or people of color. And it just almost messes with our preconceptions in a way, if that makes sense. Yes.

And do you think, you know, having had to thread that impossible to thread needle of being the best at what you do and yet somehow never getting in anybody's way, do you think that social media, to sort of come back around to the beginning, this opportunity to create this whole new space for yourself, to continue your career without having to be, you know, handcuffed to one of the big three or whatever it may look like in the landscape today, do you think in a way that helps you undo some of those misconceptions? You can be exactly who you are. You can be brilliant and want to watch silly dog videos. And you can talk to people about gender inequality and also some, you know,

cool new play that you saw. In a way, you get to be more yourself because you can be more of a whole person? I think so. I mean, I felt very much free to be who I was when I was at the today's show, less so when I was doing the CBS Evening News, where I think I had to fit into a much smaller box of being a serious, credible news person. And I think I've always been very multidimensional. You know, I think media, it's tempting to, well, you know, this, Sophia, put people in a box, like as a type, right? And I think it is very hard for, or it was hard for people to understand kind of the whole breadth of the person, especially in news, because I think women were trying so hard to be taken seriously and be credible. And I think

on the Today Show, I was allowed to really let my freak flag fly and be kind of who I was, you know, goofy and fun, but also hard-hitting and serious. when it was required. And I feel like social media, I'm just kind of an extension of that. And what's great for me having my own company and being able to shine a light on various issues and being selective about it, you know, I have a lot of freedom and I don't have to appeal to someone. Can I please do a story on this? Or don't you think we, what about a story on this? Now, I did have a lot of authority when I was at CBS because I was the managing editor. And I could say, hey, I wanted to a series on dating violence. You know,

it was after Yardly Love who played lacrosse at UVA was beaten to death by her then boyfriend. And I wanted to do it. And I wanted to do more stories where women were at the center of the story. And I was able to do that. And I feel really proud that I was able to do that. But I think for me now, I don't, you know, what I don't have to do, which I'm so grateful for, is play politics. I don't have to suck up to people and I don't have to be coy or cute or, you know, basically, you know, like I had to do, for example, at 60 minutes. There was this whole environment where the people in charge were guys and I would, it was just really hard. And that is exactly. exhausting, and I'm really not good at it. I'm kind of not a political person. I treat the security guard the same way I treat the CEO. Like, it's just not in my nature to suck up to people. And I just hate when I see people doing that. It's so distasteful to me. And I think that's one of the best things is because, you know, the company has my name on it, and I'm partially running the show

along with my husband that I had the freedom to pursue what I want to pursue without having to kind of beg to do it or without being disappointed that, you know, my story idea was given to somebody else because the guy in charge didn't like me. Right. Oh, the worst. So annoying. It's so annoying. And I'm with you. I just, I don't have that in me. I know people who are very good at playing the game and they're always networking and they're building relationships and hosting the dinner party with the influential. So I don't know how they do it. I don't have the energy. Well, I think sometimes, I mean, I think you, I mean, I think it depends what you're guided by. You know, if you're. You're guided by what can that person do for me is one thing. But if you're guided by, oh, this person is really interesting and has a lot to offer. And I'm curious about what they're doing. And if it comes from that authentic place, I think it's fine. I think it's when there's a power dynamic where you have to, you know, where you have to be subservient and. and emphasize your subservience in order to get, in order to be treated a certain way. That's what I can't do.

And I don't think you'd be very good at it either. Definitely not. I actually think that sort of, that curiosity and the desire to just, to just explore it with fascinating people is that's what led me to start my podcast. I thought, hold on, I can create a job where I, get to sit for an hour with people I absolutely admire and just ask them questions. That sounds like the best thing ever. Plus, you have the best podcast voice on the planet. Let's be honest. You're so sweet. You have the greatest voice. I love how raspy it is. Oh, thank you. Look who's talking. I mean, you, your podcast, I love so much for our friends at home. Next question with

Katie Couric. If somehow you've been living under a rock and you haven't heard it yet is so stupendous. Did that feel like a natural extension, as you were mentioning earlier, of that fully embodied you that you got to be on the Today Show? Or was it something else? Was there some next wave of curiosity for you, too? I think it's just the freedom that a podcast affords you. You know, you can say, gosh, I really want to talk to the writers from hacks.

Yeah. You know, I mean, this is a shameless plug to get them to hopefully one of them is listening. You know, I don't want to talk to the stars. I want to talk to the writers. Okay. One of the writers. This is absolute kismet that you said this because the writers of hacks are two of my oldest friends who were my very first roommates in my home. And they are now married to each other.

And the fact that of anyone you could pick, you said those two. I'm absolutely going to have my producers clip this little audio segment and I'm going to text it to them after this interview. Well, you've got to help a sister out because I got you. I think they are, I love that show. I think it's so clever. I think writers are so important and so underappreciated. I do too. You know, I mean, they're the brains behind the operation.

They are what makes, you know, they make brilliant television. So, okay, good. But anyway, what I was saying is, like, I just love the fact that now I can't get everyone. Like right now I'm trying to get Joe Biden to do an interview with me, both on video and in podcast form. And that's the beauty of it. You know, you can do kind of iterate the content for different platforms and the way people like to consume content. And so far, they are not. they're not saying yes yet, but I haven't given up hope.

But it's just like, wow, you know, this woman wrote a book called Sociopath. How fascinating. She is one, and she went to school to learn more about the condition, and I'm going to talk to her. So I think it's like you. It just felt like sublime freedom to be able to talk to whoever you want. want in a way that you hope will be instructive and entertaining for other people, right? It can't be completely self-indulgent. But if you're passionate and interested in someone, that will show, and I think that will make it more interesting for the listener. Yeah. We'll be back in just a

minute, but here's a word from our sponsors. And I do find in an ever more polarized world that there's something about these conversations that can really turn the temperature down and remind people that we're all just trying to figure this out together. I hope so. You know, I hope so. It's very hard. It's, you know, we have become, everything has become so.

personal and so full of vitriol and anger and grievance that gosh, it would be so nice to be able to find that common ground between and among people where, because I do think, I don't know, the tribalism is really disconcerting to me, this division that exists in our country. And I think people who disagree with policy should be able to have civil conversations about them.

I think what's hard is these media ecosystems have created echo chambers. And I think the worst, the least flexible side of us just gets almost calcified by here. hearing what we want to hear over and over and over and over again. And I remember I got in trouble on Bill Mark, because I said after the insurrection that I thought some people needed to be deprogrammed. And I got roundly criticized by the side that I was saying needed to be deprogrammed. But I think kind of we all do.

We all kind of need to be deprogram because we're just getting, you know, reinforced and our minds are closing to other ways of looking at things, or at least understanding that people might look at a situation differently. Well, what also really worries me is the refuting of facts. You know, while I do believe that the silos are bad for everyone, I will say there's only one side erecting gallows at the capital in Washington, D.C. You know, the effect of this sort of vitriol and violence is, I wouldn't say, evenly. distributed. Yeah. And, you know, what scares me is that the facts are ceasing to matter. You know, I was, as I do, because I like to post about the news a lot, I was sharing about the day that the

former president was indicted, you know, guilty on all 34 felony counts. That is an unbelievable sentence to utter out loud. And I had someone respond to me and say, it's, the federal juries are all rigged and it was, you know, 12 liberals that convicted him. And I'm like, it's not a federal jury. This isn't happening at the DOJ. This is happening in a state court. And by the way, one of the jurors that Donald Trump's defense team handpicked was a woman who said she only 100% gets her news from truth social. She's a huge fan of the former president and she voted guilty on all 34 counts, sir. This isn't some, quote, liberal conspiracy. This is the justice system. The guy is a criminal.

I know, and it's... And that's just it. It's so troubling when you see these institutions that really are the underpinning of our democracy. Yes. Get not even ridiculed, but disrespected and dismantled in a weird way. But no, I totally hear you. And yes, it is really, really troubling. I think there are people on the fringes that have very loud voices

and sometimes drown out people who are in the more sensible middle. And more willing to listen to each other, as you said. And I think that's a shame. Jonathan Haidt wrote an article in The Atlantic that you probably read Sophia, but if you haven't, your listeners should as well call why the last 10 years have been uniquely stupid. And it talks about the percentage of people, the voices on social media are really at the ends of the spectrum.

And they take, I think they take up so much oxygen and an inordinate amount of space that I think sometimes we get the wrong impression of what, most Americans are thinking and what most Americans believe. So that gives me some degree of solace. But you're right. And it's almost like a cancer that, you know, people start, starts repeating this stuff.

And then it almost becomes contagious. And then impressionable people will then, kind of absorb that and reflect that back out to the world. And so, yes, I agree with you 100%. Well, so going into, I mean, it is, as you said, it's the last 10 years, certainly, but this year is an election year. And, you know, again, this can kind of be like the beginning, right, where everything feels big and heavy and scary. How do you stay positive and keep your stress in check, is it reminding yourself that there are a lot more of us that are willing to listen to each other than the folks on the fringes? Or do you have some wonderful secret life hack

that you need to tell the rest of us about? I mean, I get scared and depressed. I do and anxious. But I am constantly reminded of good people out in the world. Honestly, I see people at a grassroots level doing things for other people. I see people teaching migrants from West Africa English in the park. I see, you know, my friends Brian Wallach and Sandra Abra Vaya, I just executive produced a documentary about them. He's dealing with ALS and yet they're changing the face of the disease by getting more funding and forming a community of people.

and making a blueprint for others who have so-called rare diseases. You know, so I actually, maybe I'm just, you know, hardwired for happiness and optimism. But I do think that most people are really good people. I actually do. I think the really nasty, mean people who are ignorant and, you know, that I think they're loud, but I do think they're in the minority. I think that's what keeps me positive for the most part. But I'm honestly, I'm concerned about our country.

I'm concerned about our values. I'm concerned about our moral compass. Yes. And it's perplexing to me. I don't know if it's an indictment of the media. I don't, you know, which has become so bifurcated. I think that, you know, I don't know whether it's a product of our education system that isn't emphasizing civics. I don't know if it's a symptom of loneliness because our community infrastructure just isn't quite what it used to be.

and perhaps it's social media and iPhones that have made people more isolated. And, you know, I think people who say things like what you described in your post or what I get on a regular basis would never say it to our faces. Right. And, you know, I don't know. I just feel like everybody is just loaded for bare 24-7. And I don't, I think it's, I think it's symptomatic of a lot of other societal issues that are manifesting in this kind of anger and, and, um, grievance. I don't know. What the hell do I know, Sophia?

Well, I get it. And I think the willingness to sort of analyze and ask the questions is incredibly important. I think remembering to try to meet people with curiosity. about why they feel what they feel and perhaps what they're afraid of could be a great path to, you know, resiliency for us as a community. But I also think your perspective on this stuff speaks to your resilience as an individual, you know, as Katie. You have managed over and over again to, you know, throughout your career and your personal life, choose optimism and resilience. You've modeled that for people in ways that, you know, in my own relative understanding of what it's like to be a person who lives life publicly and sometimes begrudgingly publicly, like it's not easy.

And you have been through such incredible success and wins and loss and humanity in your life. I mean, you mentioned that you built this new company with John, you know, your lovely husband who is such a wonderful, And I love the way you smile when people talk about him to you. And I love seeing the way that the two of you managed to seesaw between the personal and professional. You're this beautiful, you know, unit. You're an inspiring pair. And the world also knows that before John came into your life, your first husband, Jay, passed away. You had to process that loss and his illness in public, in real time. It, I, I, I just, it takes my breath away when I think about it for you and to not only have to go through that, but then to courageously and resiliently pursue love after loss, find your phase two, your second wave of joy, like the, the swings that you have experienced as a human being are inspiring, but, but then to do them on the world stage. It's like, I think part of the reason you can look at people and also the planet with such optimism is because you've learned that so personally and you reflect it out into the world around you. But I also think that's very sweet of you, by the way. I mean, I try. But I also think maybe what's in short supply is empathy.

Yeah. You know, like seeking to understand why certain people feel a certain way. and how they have been culturally conditioned. Now, I remember I did an hour for National Geographic a few years ago on all these thorny social issues, and one of them was on white anxiety. And I really examined changing demographics, as I mentioned, to have a majority, minority population by 2044, and obviously much more diversity in this country. and I remember talking to some gentlemen and they lived in a small town in Nebraska

and they were very upset that there was like a Mexican pride day and you know their point was you know we're from Germany or we're from Poland originally but you know we're Americans first and I think we've seen it anyway I don't know why I'm talking about this but I think it's interesting because we've seen a real shift in a change from assimilation, right, to, I think, preserving one's national, like, identity. And as we've become a nation of immigrants, people also are gravitating to people in their communities. And there is, I think, less, and I'm not making a value judgment either way, but less assimilation. So I was trying to understand where these

people who were upset about the Mexican Pride Day or whatever it was, and the people who wanted to, you know, be proud of their cultural heritage. Yeah. And I just think that change is hard, right? Change is hard for people. And I think the more we can talk about change and the more we let down our guard and drop the walls between us, the more. we can. And I've always felt like, Sophia, if you understand a problem, then you can fix it. But if you don't kind of unravel what's causing the agita or the stress or the anger, then you're not going to be able to address it. But I just, I, so I was trying to be empathetic to these people who are like, gosh, change is hard. You know, this is not how we felt about the country.

And, you know, so I think empathy is a really important component to kind of getting to the bottom of some of these strong, hard feelings that people are having. Sure. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. And I think also to be worried. willing to acknowledge what people underneath that might feel they've lost. You know, for example, when my grandmother immigrated through Ellis Island, you know, to America, from Italy with her parents and the rest of her family, you know, times were different. You were meant to assimilate. My grandmother forbade my great-grandparents from teaching my mother

Italian once my mom was five. It just was not allowed because they needed. to be American. And so in one generation, my mother lost her language. You know, she lost her tether to her heritage. Right. And now that is such a source of sadness for my mom and for me, but for my grandmother, it was imperative. But isn't that interesting how you have seen that kind of big shift? Yes, but I think because we, we're so lucky we have more information than ever. We understand more psychology than ever. We have more access to therapy than ever. We, I believe, currently are more capable of holding the dialectics, multiple truths at the same time.

I believe if my grandmother were alive today, she would be really inspired to know that I'm trying to learn Italian. But I can understand how if you'd gone back then and you had interviewed her in the way that you interviewed these people, she would have been in a panic because her greatest fear was not fitting in. her greatest fear was the othering of her children, the denial of opportunity based on a sense of other. And I think it's hard when you have been told that unless you assimilate, you will be other, and then you get to see people coming behind you who get to be both, it's actually probably painful. Your anger is probably a mask for the way you feel a little bit cheated. And if we could open that dialogue, I think it would be so exciting. Those are the dialogues. Like if I had it my way and I could just hop in like an airstream for the next, you know, however many months until the

election, I'd just drive around and talk to people. Be like, let's have a barbecue and talk. Like, I really want to know. You should do that. That would be awesome. Wouldn't that be so cool? Yeah. Well, maybe we'll go together. Well, let's call, let's tell John. Let's get the personal hat on, or the professional hat on for your your personal professional partnership at home and tell your husband that we have a story idea. And since you're the boss, we can probably get it done. I'll see in a few months. We're going in our airstream and we're going to go for barbecues all across the country. You know, I honestly feel like a group of people needs to do that. I do too. You know, I think it would be, it would be amazing. I

It's interesting that you talk about thinking dialectically because, yes, on the one hand, I think you're right. On the other hand, I think that has been lost. You know, in this very binary, you have to be for or against. Do you have to be pro this or pro that? And that you can't say yes and. My daughter, who's 28, is very funny. She has this group called the Divas for Dialectical Thinking. and they meet.

Oh my God, I love her. I think they meet every week and they talk about current events and they've been really focused on what's happening in Israel and Gaza and talking to rabbis and talking to historians and talking to Palestinian scholars and really trying to educate themselves. And, you know, I think it is, I don't know why everyone, I guess, I guess you. can feel very strongly, and I'm not saying you can't. But I think that sometimes we have to understand and have empathy for both situations and appreciate that something can be true and. Yes. I don't know if that's making any sense, but that's sort of how I feel. And I guess as a journalist, I've been trained to try to understand different perspectives and not necessarily. I mean, I do feel strongly about reproductive rights and I feel strongly about stricter gun laws.

You know, there are certain issues I feel comfortable saying, I think, I believe this. But I do try to, in my role, give various perspectives to hopefully achieve a deeper understanding of of issues. I think that's so incredibly important. And, and, you know, I think you have to, you have to try to figure out how these, how these things happen and how these generational conflicts play out. And really for me, I mean, Isabel Wilkerson's work. Oh, love her. It changed everything for me, understanding, you know, the research on cast that she did. And also the warmth of other sons. Oh, my God. I mean, what a book.

But really, for me, beginning to understand, for example, the conflict you're referring to in the Middle East, to finally have the aha facts of you have two populations who have been some of the worst victims of caste in the world going through this cyclical, horrible experience of, you know, back and forth pain. and outside influence and outside trauma and genocide and I mean it is just it helped me understand oh this is part of why this is so hard to solve in a moment because of the way this fluidity of caste has harmed over and over and over again and the way she explained it that has really burned itself in my brain is that if you envision a house cast is the foundation the terrible foundation of other and willingness to commit violence and willingness to harm the other that every room that is an ism or a phobia is built on so sexism racism homophobia classism all all of these anti-semitism anti-semitism transphobia um you know

Islamophobia Islamophobia all of it the that These isms and phobias are the rooms that are the shapeshifters of the oppression caused by cast. And I went, I finally get it. I have tried to study for almost 20 years now, the interconnectedness of all of these systems and pull it the thread of how this happens to us. why gender violence exists, why in places where there is environmental devastation, it typically makes gendered violence worse, why certain things happen when migration or demographics change. And I got it. I was like, I see this and this and this. I see the domino effects, but to understand the floor has been such a revolutionary thing for me. And when you begin

to make space for those dialectics, as you mentioned, to say, all of this can be wrong. All of these things can be true. When you see the exercising of the viciousness of cast, you go, oh, we have so much more work to do. And I feel partially again to circle all the way back to the beginning, so unbearably lucky, despite all its faults to be in this technological era, because I get to have this conversation with you. At the beginning of season three of this show, I got to interview Ava DuVernay about turning the cast into origin, the film,

and learn about how you take this brilliant academic work and turn it into the most incredible hero's journey story for a woman in a movie? I was like, how did you do it? How could you have done this? And it's these conversations that have shaped my thinking, my presence, And that in a way, Katie, when you said, you know, there's so many more of us willing to listen and meet each other in the middle, I believe personally that I've become so much more willing to do that, personally, professionally and politically, since I started doing the show because I've just gotten to know so many people so much better.

And do you talk to people with whom you violently disagree, Sophia? Yeah, because I think, you know, getting back to our upcoming airstream trip, you know, I think you can model conversations. I mean, I should do a better job of this, too, with people who think very differently. And, I mean, not everyone, because some, I think, are operating in an alternative universe, but to kind of unpack where someone's coming from beyond sort of the the trump of it all. But to talk about what lies beneath, you know, what are some of the pain points and what are some of the things that may make someone gravitate towards someone, right, who, maybe we can't understand, but maybe we would understand. And then in the process of that

understanding, be able to address the, you know, the fundamental issues that are kind of separating us, if that makes sense. Yeah. You know what that makes me think a lot about is the conversation we were having earlier about how women are expected to compete, but also expected to kumbaya all the time. And my best friend said something really great to me. She was like, no, we advocate for women, period. We don't associate with women who are unkind or disingenuous. And I was like, ah, that's a big thing. You can work toward gender equity and you can work toward closing the lending gap and you can work toward equity and equality as a benchmark, but that doesn't mean you have to like be friends with every single woman in the world because not everyone's nice

man woman non-binary person like you know no i think you're right i think you're talking sort of the macro level yeah and that's what it is right like this idea that you're saying yes do i want to have conversations with people i don't agree with like have i through this show become friends with evan macmullen and adam kinsinger like people who most folks who consider themselves progressive might not think I'd be friends with? Absolutely. And I cherish them and their opinions and I like the pushback they'll offer to some of my thinking. Do I want to sit down with someone who, you know, tried to hang the vice president on January 6th? No, I do not. Like, that's where I'm going to go ahead and probably draw my boundary. Would I like to talk to a family member of someone who was there?

I would. I'd like to know their thinking. You know, I think all the time I'm trying to stretch my willingness while making sure I'm retaining boundaries. But I don't want my boundaries to be rooted in petulance. I want them to be about, you know, safety and respect. And as you said, at least a willingness to agree on facts, like one plus one does in fact equal to. The sky is not green, you know, some basic facts, and then we can talk about our feelings and our opinions. Yeah. I think part of it is the media, the fragmentation of media and who you're listening to and the information you're getting and how it's reinforcing a certain perspective that isn't accurate. You know, you mentioned earlier about, or I was talking about how it's been gratifying,

to see more women in important roles. And I recently posted this, and I got, I saw it on the female quotient. You know, I was talking about how certain attitudes are baked in. I'm just going to play this for your listeners real quick. Oh, yes, please. Let's talk about the dream gap. It's the gap that comes between girls and their full potential. She started at 8.5.

Girls stop believing they can be. presidents, scientists, astronauts, big thinkers, engineers, CEOs, and the list goes on. Why? Because what else are we going to believe? When by 8-7, we're more likely to think that boys are smarter than us. That's ridiculous. We are three times less likely to be given a science-related toy that suck. And when our parents are twice as likely to Google, is my son gifted? Then is my daughter gifted?

That's not cool. We need to see brilliant women being brilliant. And see how they got to where they are. You imagine ourselves showing what they do. But we can't do it along. Mom's dad's brothers and bosses. We need all. I'm all of you to help.

Hmm. To close the dream gap. The dream gap. It's up to all of us. Oh, I love that. That is amazing. But that's what I was saying, you know, for all our progress, you know, there are still these deeply embedded ideas that infiltrate our dreams and keep them from coming to fruition.

And so I think that's. what we need. And that's what I think people respond to when they see, as you said earlier, people getting checked on the court or people, you know, behaving in a certain way. It doesn't jive with their preconceived notions. And we have to continue to try to shatter these myths and these limitations that are placed on us. We've gotten very heavy here, Sophia. How can we? You know what? For me, it feels inspiring because you just said it, it is a myth. And I think the more we can disrupt those myths, you know, the more we can take that old dusty carpet and, you know, throw it over the clothesline and whack it with a tennis racket. Like, shake the dust out, change it up. It feels, I don't know, it feels very exciting to me. It feels like part of the work of our lifetimes, don't you think? Yeah, and I think, you know, to your point, when you left school early to go see Oprah, you know, we have to see more Oprahs and more Diane Sawyers and more Indranui's and, you know, more Billy Jean Kings. And I could go on and on and on. But I think the more we see these people, well, they say, you know, you can't, you can't, if you can't see her, you can't be her. So, you know, again, I think it's as you would say, Sophia, a work in progress. There it is. Well, actually, you lead me to my very

favorite question to ask my guests, Katie. And I'm so curious to know now for you, after you answered it in season one, what feels like your work in progress right now, right here in 2024? I think still finding that, that I think it's, still finding that balance of doing things that you think are important of being useful, of accomplishing things, and also the intangible things like being a good mom and now grandmother because my daughter just had a little baby boy and you know being a good friend spending quality time not achieving but just being i i think that's a constant struggle for me um i think i'm pretty good at it but i'd like to get better and i don't know why i feel like i

always have to be productive. And, you know, I don't think that makes necessarily for a joyful life. If you're feeling so much pressure to produce, it takes away time from just being. Yeah, enjoying life. So I would say that's still. And I just feel like I'm very cognizant.

You know, I'm 67. I'm on the back nine, And although my husband says I'm really more like on the 14th hole. I'm like, thanks, honey. I like that. Well done, John. But I think, you know, there's so many things I still want to do, you know. I'd like to learn Italian.

I'd like to learn how to be a great cook. I'd like to learn how to do so many things. Yeah. And, you know, I just don't have time to do it all. So I think it's being intentional. about how I want to spend my time and with whom doing what. I still think finding that secret sauce of time allocation is still something that I'm that I'm working on consciously.

Well, when you've got any tips, end of my way, because me too, sister. Maybe it's a universal problem for people. Yeah. Yeah. But it's nice when you hear that, you know, your heroes and the people you look up to are working on it too you're like okay okay i'm not that behind we're all no we're all kind of in it yeah well thank you so much i'm i'm so thrilled to have been able to catch up with you today i love yeah me too and i so appreciate how um

how thoughtful you are thank and um how eloquent you are i like language and i like words and I really love when people express themselves in a way that is, you know, that's in a way that's, that's it in a way that I'm not doing right now, a way that, that, you know, that, you know, is eloquent and, um, almost poetic and expresses exactly, you know, chooses the right word to express what they're saying. I really appreciate and admire that. And I think you do that. Thank you so much, Katie. That means a lot to me coming from you. And I'm so thrilled about everything that's, you know, coming up. I absolutely love next question.

And I know our listeners, all of our whips, Marties out there, Will. Read our newsletter. Oh, the newsletter is so good. Sign up at katiecurrick.com. You know, we have so many great writers and journalists working on. it every day. And I'm so, I'm so grateful and proud of, grateful for and proud of them. And we try to, we try to help people understand this crazy world. And I think we're, we're making a big contribution in that department. So, and then we have a lot of fun stuff, you know,

John has Father's Day's gift ideas. And, you know, so it's not all. super heavy, but I feel like you can really kind of get caught up and understand the world so you can move on to living your life if you just open our newsletter every morning. And that's sort of the goal. You don't want to be the dumb one at the water cooler, you know? Oh, God. The horror. And thanks for everything you're doing. And I hope I get to see you in person soon. I would love that. All right, my dear. I will, I'll send you a note and we'll find a time. That would be awesome. Okay.

Thank you for today. Lots of love. Thank you.