Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Kevin McHale

Episode Date: August 22, 2024

TV viewers got to know him as Artie Abrams on the mega-hit series "Glee" and from his scene-stealing guest role on "The Office," but his dream to be on the small screen wasn't as an actor but as a weatherman! Kevin McHale joins Sophia to chat about his childhood dream and what fueled it, their thoughts on the current political climate, a gleeful recap of how he got the part of Artie, the inclusion of disability representation on network television, and the reason he finally decided to do a Glee rewatch podcast after much deliberation. Plus, Kevin confesses to a party faux pas that almost took out a famous singer at one of Sophia's bashes!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to Work in Progress, friends. Today we are joined by someone that I absolutely adore on screen and adore even more off. A frequent guest at parties at my house. And someone that I love to lean on for laughter and also for spitballing how to make it through this crazy world, today's guest is none other than Kevin McAil. You likely know Kevin from his incredible role as Artie Abrams on the Fox TV series Glee.

He was nominated for a Grammy Award three Screen Actors Guild Awards for Outstanding Performance by an Ensemble in a comedy series and two Teen Choice Awards for his role as Artie on Glee. he has hosted comedy panels, podcasts, been on The Office, and American Horror Story. As a singer, Kevin released his debut EP in 2019, and in addition to performing, he directs music videos for other incredible artists. Growing up in Texas's Tornado Alley, Kevin has a whole lot to say about the weather service, how he grew up wanting to be a weatherman, and why that curiosity mixed with, The Wild Circus of our day jobs led him into really, really incredible political activism for equity. I am so excited to have a conversation that really covers all of this and more with my dear friend Kevin. Enjoy. very fun. Well, I'm very excited that you're here. Thanks for having me. One of the things I actually really like to do with people when they come on the show and they're not like one of my

friends who I just want to shoot the shit with. I actually like people to take me all the way back because in this world of having these crazy jobs we have, people often meet you on a show. They meet you as an adult. They get to know you when you've had some modicum of success, right? And I'm always really curious if from, you know, inside of yourself today, like Kevin, artist, performer, host, multi-hyphen-et, if you look back at your little boy self at like eight or nine years old, do you see the through line of how you wound up here or was this completely crazy unexpected and your eight-year-old self would never believe what you do for a living? fully both yes because of like my interests when I came out of the womb it makes sense okay but you know how it is of the fact that anybody can find success and what they love to do yeah is mind boggling like the amount of like you can be prepared you can have done all the things you needed to do to put yourself in the right position but it still takes a little sprinkling of magical timing and

luck and the fact that that has happened to me a couple times is mind-boggling my parents have been visiting the past week so there's been a lot of that like nostalgia looking back you know we used to come out here for acting in LA for acting things and so there's been a lot of intro you know introspective reflection okay this past week so it's an apropos question okay so so paint a little bit of a picture for me you know little little boy version of you where's he growing up what's he into what's what's the vibe in the house the quickest picture to paint is i was but nine years old when titanic came out okay belting out my heart will go on oh and just be like i had to you know like i just had to do it

yeah so yeah there was no way you were going to survive if you didn't no or i would be in front of the TV, learning the dance routines to in sync and like Britney Spears, Michael Jackson. Oh, wow. Or I would, I don't know if you remember, there was this like cheap video camera, like home video camera that, because like the real ones were expensive and we didn't have it like that. But there were like one Christmas, some like toy video camera came out. And I got it. And I used to film myself doing playing.

And Good Morning America. And so I would be a news anchor and I would film myself doing the weather, which is really what I wanted to do. You wanted to be the weather man. Oh, desperately. Wait, why? Tell me everything. I grew up in Tornado Valley and I was deathly afraid of tornadoes.

And so I would sit in front of the weather channel every day, all day. And so I learned everything about the weather. I would read books on the weather because I was just so scared that I don't. I don't know how that maybe I felt if I knew about it, I could see the signs that a tornado was forming or something and then get everybody into a safe room or something. So like if you became an expert at the thing you were afraid of, maybe you'd see it coming before everyone else. Yes, which did happen. Like we would go to Florida for vacation in the summers and Tampa where we would lose like the lightning capital of the world. So I would see the storms coming and like, we all have to get inside now.

Just real fun. I was a really fun kid. Yeah. Uplifting. Yeah. Just paranoid all the time. But, yeah, so I used to film myself. I would make maps of the United States.

I would make the cold front things and the, oh, yeah. Wait, have you seen The Weatherman? And now, of course, that I want to tell you this on a show with all of these listeners. I can't think of his name. I DM his videos to people all the time. He'll take a poll and ask people on Instagram. what song he should work the lyrics into in his next weather report. Yes.

And he does everything from like the yin-yang twins. He is so funny. It's brilliant. Like that's who I would want to be. If I was a weatherman, that's who I'd want to be. Yeah. Absolutely. It's not too late.

No. Maybe I'll be a mayor and maybe you'll be a weatherman. Great. Can I be like secretary of weather? Yes. Can I be in the cabinet? Um, well, here's the thing. If Project 2025 goes through,

there won't be a national weather service anymore, which feels insane, given that we do live in a country with a tornado alley and, you know, coasts that get pounded by hurricanes. But should we beat rising fascism and actually preserve American democracy, then the agencies that, you know, do the weather reporting will continue to exist. And then I absolutely think you should be in charge of one of them. What a crazy, crazy thing that's happening. Like, it's... Like, it's... Like, It's almost like somewhere there was a rip in the Matrix, and the writers of Parks and Rick got made in charge of writing scandal. Well, or the West Wing, perhaps.

And everything is, it's hard to be, it's hard to believe that these things are to be believed. And yet it's happening. And not only is it happening, they've published the 900-page fascist manifesto for us. to read and then they say no no that's not real and you're like no but you published it it's gaslighting oh but that's what they do well yes i mean they're very good at it and that's why wouldn't you're like well no trump tanked the border bill like no he didn't um gaslighting 101 yeah yeah yeah i mean they even made it so readily available online there's tabs you can click on to like go to the thing like it's great like oh here's their horrific plan to ruin democracy yeah here's the plan to

undo democracy here's the plan to completely undo um healthcare and medicaid what's that senior citizens they don't need anything no let them die like that's literally what they're saying and then they're they're telling us that we've misheard or misread and again i just keep thinking no this is on your your platform all you have to do is copy and paste those sentences and spit them back to them and they're like, no, no, no, I didn't do anything. I'm simply just showing you what you have published.

I do feel like, I know we're getting off topic, but it feels like it's starting to land on deaf ears a bit and I'm very happy, in a good way. And I think a way in which we know this schick, we're over it. And not just like the people,

people who will always vote Democrat. I think there is a good portion in the middle there that is just like, oh, same show. Well, you know, it's interesting. I was talking to my parents about this because I asked them a lot of questions about their generation. You know, they're in their 70s. Same. And my dad is like, yeah, even my friends who I didn't agree with who were right leaning 40 years ago are now like, okay, we've lost the plot. This is not, we're not having, a difference of opinion about budget we're not doing that we're literally

you've got a candidate who is copying close to verbatim quotes from Adolf Hitler talking about wanting America to be an oligarchy and then everyone else to be peasants who die at alarming rates

and it's like I don't care if you don't think Medicare for all is an option I could show you where you're wrong because it's math. Math is actually very unemotional. It would be cheaper for us to keep people healthy than to treat all the sick people in our country.

But we're not even debating that. We're literally talking about like Nazis or the right to vote. It's like full. It's so crazy that I think it's hard for people who quote unquote don't do politics to ignore at this point. Yes. And I also think for the people who are like, oh, no, he's not actually going to do those things.

Those people aren't. I think at this point, you're in the minority if you don't believe them or don't take them out their word because they're showing, they're showing you exactly what. And like, I mean, to your point, too, about there was a great respect for progress intentionally was slow. You take two steps forward, one step back, every switch of a presidency. And that's fine. You bring the people along with you. You have a consensus. There's consensus building.

I like the way you phrase that. It's not fast. and it's not how we, as fast as we want it to be ever, but generally we move in a consensus-driven direction. Sure. Fine. And like what you said, now, and like old-school Republicans, it's like, well, we're not, we're not nowhere near to having those questions and debates.

Debate is good. Having a disagreement is good if it's filled with substance. Yeah. And filled with, like, actually, like, you feel ethically and morally obligated to defend this position and back it up with X, Y, and Z. Now, we're not doing that. Now we're just attacking feelings and opinions. Well, and now we're literally just paying politicians to do things they know will hurt people.

Like Clarence Thomas, taking $4 million worth of bribes to then eviscerate people's rights on the Supreme Court. It's like, what? They're just doing crime in public now? This is so crazy. And there's even more that gets uncovered. So much more. What else is there, though? Okay. So I have a question for you because I get this a lot. And we did just say we sort of went off topic. We went from childhood to election. But, you know, we're stressed. Our rights are on the chopping block. Also, you and I like see each other mostly at these like political things. Oh yeah. We're always together in D.C. never in L.A. and we're basically neighbors, which is crazy. And like nobody else. We're like the two people I feel like from L.A. who were just constantly in D.C. and everyone's like, why are you here? And you're like, because we have work to do. So this was going to be my question. Because a lot of people.

leave the crazy lie that like entertainers are all privileged. They don't understand that most people in our industry are circus performers living paycheck to paycheck. And when people will say to me like, oh, well, what do you know? Like you, what do you know about, you know, paying your fair share? And I'm like, oh, you mean the entire democratic socialism of Hollywood, which means everybody makes a percentage of the money I make. Like, I don't make my own money. Everybody on my team gets paid first. And I'm kind of proud of that. But, like, I have to work. I have to make 10x to make even money with everyone on my team.

Like, that's how it is. So that's part of why we work so hard. And when people are like, what do you know about unions or this or that? I'm like, well, the only reason I have health care is because I'm in a union. Like, I'm literally in this circus performer union, SAGAFRA. And it is the only reason I get to go to the doctor or the dentist. I'm very grateful for it. And it's great health insurance.

It's great health that we used to be better. but it's we're working we're working our way back but i think people don't understand what a team sport our line of work is and because i think you know they they see the two actors in a scene and they don't know there's 200 people on set making that scene happen they see you go to the golden globes which everybody thinks is our life and it's actually like this ridiculous lie and none of us know what we're doing there and we're wearing all borrowed clothes and borrowed jewelry and we're terrified to lose it because god forbid we got mugged we could never pay the brand back for the thing that was stolen from us.

Like, it's this wild sort of thing. And I'm like, I guess it would be cool if people could see that most of the time we're hanging out on sets that don't have great climate control because the climate control messes up the microphones. And it's like, it's the actors union, the construction union,

the transportation union. Like, it's just us and a bunch of crew humans. Yeah, yes. And so I think because we can only move forward if we're part of a team, We believe in the team spirit of America. Totally. And that's sort of the only way I know how to explain it to people.

Is that why you feel politically passionate? Or was there like a moment that made you go, oh, I need to know more about this? You know, there was a moment for me working more regularly where prop eight, the whole prop eight thing was happening. And it was around the time I was going to be able to vote for the first time. So I was 17 or 18, and I remember there were protests on the street corner outside my apartment complex and secretly like closeted gay kid and me and my friends were like, let's go check it out. And then like one of my straight best friends got a sign. He's like, we have to go protest. This is crazy. And so we went and protested and it was like that small act.

I always watched the news, clearly I love the Weather Channel. I was engaged in, you know, those types of things. And I think because it directly impacted me. Yeah. Unfortunately, like, it shouldn't have to take something like that, but I think that was my sort of gateway into it where I saw for the first time people, it wasn't politicians talking. It was just people in my neighborhood, in my community with opposing visions for what they

wanted to happen in the state. And that coupled with absolutely, when you're on a set, you are dealing with people from all walks of life. It is a very unglamorous job. Yeah. And I think you're right. People see the movie stars or the big TV stars and that's what you associate with it. But the actual work of it, the job of it is very humbling in the sense of, yeah, we're getting paid more than almost everybody in the crew, but they're there before us, they're there after us. They usually have families who are waiting on them, and they don't get to spend that much time with their kids. Like on Glee, we had 15, 16-hour days regularly. Oh, yeah. And so it was, it's a way to, it was always a way to really quickly check any amount of privilege you had walking into that

situation. Because, like, for Glee, it was also the first time I was making any sort of money. Yeah. And it felt very strange. And it almost felt wrong in a way. and the amount of respect you have for people doing the gaffers and the sound and that we know nothing about, right? And like the show doesn't get made without hundreds of people, like you said, showing up every single day. And I think because I was lucky, I think, because the type of show that we were on and what it represented, the crew was affected by that. I felt like it was a full team effort thing. We're doing this really positive thing for society. And it never felt like it was an us and them thing.

It's how I learned about unions. It's how I learned the importance of unions. And respecting all those different types of viewpoints, having people come and work on the show. That was a really super gay show. And watching people, nobody talked about their personal beliefs, but you could sort of sense things change. and how people were into it and like, oh, my kids really like this.

And so it was a really nice way to sort of get a slice of life, a slice of different communities and demographics. You wouldn't normally, someone that was 20 years old wouldn't normally be interacting with on a daily basis for that many hours. And so, yeah, I feel like a more well-informed citizen because of that. And because every day you're up against other people who are unlike you. and I think that is and that is the old way

that you know I think politics used to work where you get in rooms with people if you only surround yourself with people who have the exact same opinions and life experience of you

as you you're not going to get anywhere because it's just all you're in a vacuum and everyone's agreeing and you don't have to defend your position and being challenged

and seeing you know things from other people's perspective is what we do as actors and as citizens I think that's what you have to do to be well-informed and well-engaged. I agree. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible.

Well, and I think it's really important to have a willingness to noodle on something. To really get into the nitty-gritty of it. And in art, you know, in our line of work, that's, so important. You have to sit with your coworkers and figure out like what you're doing to make the thing on the page be more than just typeface. And then for some reason, we've gotten to this point where people don't really want to, they don't want to noodle on things and they don't want to accept reality. It's like part of the reason I've become such a policy nerd and I get so deep in the data is because math is unemotional. It's just addition and subtraction, et cetera, et cetera. And when people just say, well, that's just not true. or you know this politician hasn't done anything and I'm like literally look at the pages and pages and pages of this person's record I'm not impressed by that and I'm like what I had this conversation with somebody the other day it was fascinating because we can get stuck in our you know people who agree with me or ourselves and I was at a dinner and there were these like two young guys in the early 20s and politics came up and I knew how like the friends who invited me to dinner felt I know we were all on the same page and this kid was talking about it was after the assassination attempt of Trump and he was like all of a sudden out of nowhere just very gung-ho loud and boisterous but not saying anything about like pro-Trump

stuff and I felt I was like this is great I want to hear what other people are saying and thinking and then when we I was like okay well that's not true and here's why you know what you just said. He's like, well, I'd love to see those numbers. I'm like, you can. You absolutely can. Those are all readily available. Yeah, you can pull up your phone right now and search on Google. We can talk about inflation all day. Yeah. And he just sort of like shut down immediately. And I was like, okay, because what I heard you say was everything from a Fox News pundit, like, which I get. And I understand why you're saying these things. But here's some pushback for you.

I like to be challenged. I like someone to come at me with numbers. I'm like, I love to admit. I have no problem admitting I was wrong. But like, give me the data. Like, prove it to me. That's what's frustrating for me too. Like when we talk about the sort of, and I don't mean this to be rude,

it's literally a quote from an article I read, like the brain rot being caused by Fox News. This is a company that multiple times has gone to court. and defended themselves by saying we are not a news program. Yes. We're entertainment. No intelligent viewer would believe we are the news. And I'm like, you're literally going to court and making fun of your own viewers. You're calling them stupid.

Yeah. But your defense for the reason that they're, quote, stupid is because you're lying to them. They don't care. You are lying to these people and then riling them up and then causing them to go in the streets with, you know, semi-automatic weapons and, like, do them. most insane shit and then going well that wasn't our fault as long as the check clears it's like as long as the check clears they don't care there's no moral obligation or responsibility well and what's crazy is that someone like a tucker carlson will make fun of people like me and you when he was making 40 million dollars a year to lie to people on fox news and i'm like bitch in my entire life

i don't think i'm ever going to see that much money i think i would have to win the lottery like Like, didn't Hirsch Limbaugh used to make, like, 80 million dollars or something a year from this podcast or radio show? Yes. Like, yes. And I'm out here being like, well, if I make a dollar, I pay my agent 10 cents. I pay my manager 10 cents. I pay my publicist 10 cents. I pay my assistant 10 cents.

Then I pay my union. Then I pay my taxes. If I'm lucky, I keep 20 cents. You're a really good friend and you, like, also throw really great events at your house that probably aren't cheap either. So you're not, but they're like the source of my joy. but you know you're it's you're spending

yeah man like and it's just so weird I'm like y'all you all accuse us of like not knowing how to share and you're just over here being robber barons

it's so weird it is so weird but I have a question yeah to go back to the place where we began sort of fish

about what you were talking about on glee like that experience of being on your first show having it be such an enormous hit I mean from critically acclaimed to like a ratings juggernaut

to also surfacing these social conversations about outcasts and queer kids and even disability and like all of these things that weren't really happening before and when you talk about and I want to know more about this

what it was like to see people expand perhaps as they worked on the show you know in front of or behind the camera but but the real first question about that that I want to ask is really for you like what did that feel like for you how old were you what was the audition process like did you know this was going to be really special or were you like i don't know if this is going to work is anybody going to care about like you know quote unquote outcast kids singing like what was that like the my manager

called me and she was like there's this great pilot and it was right towards towards the end of, it was right after the writer's strike of 07. Okay. And so it was supposed to be a mid-season replacement. Okay. And so it was early 2008. My manager loved the script and she was like, you need to read this. It's hilarious.

And there's music in it. And I didn't really think too much of the music component. Okay. Wow. I was doing music at the time. I know. And so it seemed like, oh, this is fun. but I couldn't, in my little simple brain,

couldn't really conceptualize how it was going to be done. And so I just read it like a normal script. And it was really dark. Like the humor was so dark and sarcastic. And I loved it. And I laughed out loud. And you know, I'll audition for anything. But it's not very often that you get a script that you really, really love.

Yeah. And it was one of those like, oh, this is very good. like yes i want to absolutely audition for it yeah we'll see who knows you know you're you get one out of every 800 auditions whatever it is and so i was like yeah i'll audition for this whatever and so i win an audition for it it was me and robert orch the casting director in his little office it was one of those places where everybody in the waiting room can hear you oh god nightmare yeah nightmare especially because you because you're you're singing. It's already bad enough when people can like hear you doing the scenes. Yeah.

Through the door you just hear, but I love him. Yes. It's I have, I'm like sweating now thinking about it. The worst, it's the worst possible setup. Yeah. But I went in there. I did the song. I sing Let It Be by the Beatles. I didn't nail it because I thought it would just need a verse and a chorus. And so I only really practiced that. And then I got past the chorus. He's like, keep going. I was like, I don't know any more words. You're like, can I go back to the beginning? And I think I just started like repeating the first verse and then eventually stopped and laughed. And then did the scene and he's like, okay, when you come back, can you prepare two songs and the scenes are great?

And I was like, oh, I guess I'm coming back. And then I auditioned for Ryan Murphy and the entire team. It went from being in front of one guy to like 15 people. Yeah. And Ryan's office on Paramount, and then I found out a couple days later that they wanted me to test for it. I had never tested for anything before. Oh, my gosh. And so I then had to wait six weeks for them to, yes.

I found it I was testing. And they're like, well, we have to find other people. Oh, my God, because they needed you to test with other actors for other roles. And they didn't have anybody to test yet for any of the other roles either. So I think they had Secret, I think they had cast Leah And I think they had possibly cast Matthew Morrison

Okay And I Maybe Jane was in the picture Being talked about at some point But any of the kids besides Leah They didn't have so I had to wait And didn't

Am I crazy? Because time is so bendy Since the pandemic Also I've learned that People with ADHD have time blindness So maybe it's not the pandemic Like, maybe it's just my brain. But what I feel like I remember,

because I remember when she did Spring Awakening, and like it was, I mean, just like this revelatory show. And I feel like Spring Awakening led to her getting cast on Glee, right? Yes. Because, I mean, that voice, like, duh. Insane. Okay. She, I think she was still in Spring Awakening.

Oh, my gosh. So I think Ryan had seen her. Jenna was also in Spring Awakening. Oh, that's right. Oh, my God. Yeah. So, like, they were fully pulling from... Okay, okay.

They were pulling Broadway kids left in me. Yes. Okay. Which me, I went and tested against... My first test was against nobody. They had taped people in New York and then... Stop. So then two days later, they flew in a Broadway guy from New York, and I tested against him.

And when I found out he was on Broadway, I remember texting my, like, manager and my sister. You're like, it's over. Yeah, I'm like, well, this is. a good run. Like, I had two tests. I've never been called back four times for something. Like, you know. Oh my God. You sweet soul. I'm like, this is a good experience. Pretty devastating. But yeah, and then I got it, which was wild. I was 20. I was going to say, because I know you were 20 when it aired. So it was pretty tight. Yes. I got it in September of 2008. We shot the pilot all of October and then it aired in May of 2009.

May. So because they ended up holding it. It ended up not being, they liked it so much that they picked it up for a full half season. Originally it was going to be picked up for maybe six or seven episodes. Oh, wow. They gave us 13 episodes and we're going to hold it until the fall. But we aired the pilot after the season finale of American Idol.

Smart. Just to like, you guys see it and then we'll be back in three months. but no an answer to one of your other questions we did not have any idea if it was going to be a success because there was nothing really to compare it to any musical show had not done well but we knew

and what we really learned from the crew because this was almost all of us it was our first show and the crew who were veterans were like this is special you guys should enjoy this and so and that's who we are performing for

I mean for the six seasons that's who we were always performing for yeah oh my god how fun and so like they were such I mean every crew was an integral part of a set but yeah I feel like there's even that extra layer of they were our audience

and like they were really involved in those performances even if they were never on camera and from the pilot on we really benefited from that and yeah we knew we had a great time doing it we loved it we loved the humor we loved the music when we saw the pilot it was pretty overwhelming in the sense of i think this works really well oh my gosh but like who are we to judge yeah well you just never know yeah and that's the thing like how many friends that i have who got pilots and no one ever knew and no one ever saw

them because they didn't more often than not pilots didn't get picked up and now a word from our I made this show that I was so passionate about years ago, like, so passionate about. And I'll never forget the DP was such a baller. Sat me down and was like, I've never been wrong about a show that I've DP'd. This is going to air. This is going to win every award. This is one of the best scripts I've ever read.

I have had the most fun working on this and watching all of you actors and da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da and it it had a political bent to it and this this premise of our pilot which was like this could never ever happen wouldn't it be crazy if this happened in the government essentially happened because we had a con man get elected as the president and literally the network was like it's an incredible project we can't we can't put this on the air and i was like This, but this is my baby. This is like, this is the love of my, of my working life. Like, is that what's making me feel better?

Yeah, and they were just like, yeah, we're not looking to become targets for the president. So, bye. So sorry. And I was like, well, this baller-ass show we made will never see the light of day. And, um, sh-hmm. Right. But it's like you just never, you never know what's going to be the circumstance. You never know what's going to happen in the world.

You never know if it's going to be exactly what culture needs or something where you've missed a window. And that's one of the things I think was so profound about your show. I mean, talk about parties at my house. Obviously, like, Jenny and I did that, you know, professionally in our off time for a decade as roommates together. And you were at most of them. And, like, Jenny was the one who introduced me to the league. She was like, what do you mean you're not watching this show? And I was like, I've heard it's really good.

But like, I'm, I'm making my, I'm on set for 16, 18 hours on my show. And she was like, I don't care. Like Sundays, we're watching. We're doing something. And we just started binging the show. And so when you and I became friends, I was just like, I'm so proud of you. And also like, are you good? Are you so tired?

Are you okay? Like, do you need a hug? Because I knew, I was like, I know how hard our hours are on us. And we have one basketball day, an episode. and you're essentially doing a full Broadway production every single week. Like, sir, are you taking Epsom salt baths? What are you doing for yourself? But I felt like when I met you, because your show was just so gigantic,

you were all wildly famous, which is a different thing than our show. Really? Yes. I didn't feel like that. I was the exact age. I think I was the exact demographic who grew up watching you guys. and so I think I could at least feel like you're on every magazine cover like just everywhere

I just feel like all we did was get made fun of on the soup but maybe that's that human thing right people compliment you and you're like it can't possibly be true and then people tell you you're terrible and you're like they must be right well I think it's that you can't feel it when you're inside of it

you can to an extent but when you're in the beast of it in the machine like you were off shooting especially in another state so crazy you're so far removed from it we were locked on these stages but in l.A but like 10 months out of the year though so we didn't have a lot of public interaction it was only really when we went on tour the first two seasons or we would go home for the holidays and you would go to other states right and like oh right something's Different, right. People are watching this.

This is crazy because it didn't feel like that. Like, we were just having a good time and I'm sure it was a similar experience for you. Yeah. Like, I'm working. I've made a lot of great friends. I do imagine, though, you're, I imagine the dynamic. We didn't all become individually, like, really famous. The show became famous.

I feel like your guys' show and you as a show and you as a, individuals became quite famous, which I think would be an additional sort of mind because everybody's young, everybody's having probably like the most success they had had up to that point. To an extent? I mean, it was my first show. Yeah. And so there's no training for that.

And so the amount that we interface with that, I could see how it affected everybody. but I think you guys personally were on a different level and I can't imagine how hard or just the mind I don't know it's terrible what's also weird is we were we you know our show premiered in the early 2000s so it was very much now we understand right like we've had the Britney Spears documentary

we understand the way that the press in particular treated women and I think what was the most alarming about it for us is that they essentially decided what caricature of a person we were and then they've tried to remit us to that for clickbait ever since. Right.

And it's a very weird and bizarre thing to be reduced to like a cartoon version of a human. But I think that's true for everyone. And like, and society has also shifted in so many interesting ways. Like I, as a fan of your show and aside from being, aside from being a person who has a friendship with you, like,

as a fan of watching you as a performer, I loved your portrayal of Artie. I loved him. I loved everything that you did with it. I thought, I just thought you were so beautiful. And I understand that as things have shifted and we are having different kinds of conversations about representation, you have also publicly said, like, I'm an able-bodied person. I shouldn't have been playing this disabled character. And you played him so beautifully, and you brought that experience into the forefront of culture for so many people who have lived with disabilities and been kept out of so many spaces. And I remember hearing you first talk about it and thinking, like, yeah,

absolutely. And now I'm also in this position where I feel like it's a both and. Yes, of course. Like, they should, casting should work harder to find people who have lived this. And you, you did such a beautiful job as a storyteller, making all of us learn about stories like his. And I would imagine, because I know who you are, and we talked about this earlier, like the research you did and the people you spent time with, I know you carried them into set with you every single day that you played Artie. So it's like, I guess I bring that up only to say, we've shifted so much about so many conversations and then in certain ways, I mean, at least with media culture, I think not enough has shifted, but how do you kind of feel about all of it now? Has your purview

expanded? Like, do you have more room for both kindness and accountability with yourself? Like, What is that like all these years later? Very well said and asked. And thank you. It's very hard. I love me. I know it's really difficult. I hate it.

I can't even look at you while I'm like giving you your flowers. As a friend though, people, I don't know if people know, though, you are very supportive of all your friends. And like there's been times and I've wanted to get an audition. I couldn't get an audition. And you helped me before be like, okay, if you were in a meeting, what do you want to get out of it? What are you trying to say?

Help me formulate my plan. And it works. And it worked. And so you're very supportive of your friends and I appreciate it. So thank you. Thank you. I completely agree with everything you said. I think at the time,

Artie was not the first audition I had playing somebody in a wheelchair. Those were things that just happened. And I think I was blissfully ignorant to representation in general and what that actually meant because through playing a character who was not normally seeing on television on network television every single week

and seeing how much it meant to people in chairs especially to kids in chairs and having their parents tell me that the kids and then actors who were in chairs needed to see that and yes in an ideal world would already have been played by somebody who was actually in a chair?

Absolutely. But I also think Glee was at that time, and we always say this. Like, it was sort of that bridge. It was the end of an era and the beginning of a new era, where at the end of it, we knew better about a lot of things and culture was shifting for the better in that way. Yeah. Where, you know, there are some things in Glee that did not age well.

We were sort of workshopping those things. What works and what doesn't work? Oh, there are things that I see. when I rewatch One Tree Hill, and I'm like, oh, my God. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm sure. And some of them are fights we didn't even know to have, and some of them are fights. I tried to have and lost, because, you know, we have no power as babies on a set. And good God, I'm like, I was right.

I should have fought harder on that one. And then there's the things you don't see coming, and you just go, oh, that really hasn't aged well. I can't believe nobody caught that. Yeah. I mean, we're watching season four now, and we just started to deal with a trans character. And every time there's like a scene that's around, I'm like, oh, how is this going to go? And I don't even think I realized at the time what we were, the significance of that, even if it was not exactly right, and it wasn't a lot of the time, the fact that it was happening at all. and trying to figure out

to have that conversation amongst young people because there's also a show that kids watch with their families a lot. So this is an introduction and an education to many generations who are watching this show together.

But back to the artie of it all. I felt I felt very privileged to play it. I felt play him. I felt a gigantic responsibility. It did feel weird and uncomfortable for some of that because like I'm obviously not in a wheelchair like this but I got hired to do a job and that's right I'm very grateful for that it's conflicting a lot of the time but it was like let me just

sort of do no harm I think is sort of what I felt like did they do they hire like a specialist for you did you have a movement coach like how did you learn or you were responsible to go and meet folks in chairs and, and do all your research and learn about, you know, what sorts of paralysis he might have. Like, that was all up to you? Yeah. And so I, yeah. And so I was like, I guess I'll just try to go meet people. And I did. Like through the high school, I had just graduated from a year before in the community college that I went to at the high school and all that. Yeah. And just also just trying to be observant and trying to see what life was like for somebody a chair in real life. Right. In different spaces. And I also got critiques from that

community. I remember the beginning of season two, I was getting fitted for a new chair. And the guy who was fitting me, who was in a chair, he corrected the way I was sitting. He's like, by the way, and in one breath, I was horrified that I had done 22 episodes that was seemingly wrong. I also was very, very grateful that he felt like he could speak up and say that to me. And he was absolutely going to be heard because, again, I was like, this, let me not do this incorrectly. Thank you. Give me all the feedback. Wow. And so any position, you know, any argument of that I shouldn't be playing the part, I'm like, yeah, I hear you.

Absolutely. And now we do know better. And I think now that characters like that have been seen, then also showrunners, creators, writers, writers, casting directors now know to look for that. Now, and people in chairs know that they can be cast in something. And I think that has to, we have to challenge it from both sides. Yeah, I think that's really a beautiful way to put it. When those opportunities come up, you just, yeah, like you said, you just have to work a little harder.

to find the right people for the gig. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. The thing that you said earlier I really love is remembering that progress, like getting farther down the road does always require a bridge. Somebody has to help build the bridge from the way we think we've always done it to what's possible on the other. side of the river. And what a cool thing that, you know, in this timeline of culture and storytelling, you helped to do that. And really did help to bring a conversation about representation and disability into the forefront. Because Glee became this, I mean, juggernaut. Like, what a

huge show, the awards and the stories and the things. And I mean, what was amazing and what was dramatic and you know much i think any show that lasts for as long as ours did like there's always rumors of drama and yada yada and it's like half of it's a bullshit and half of it's worse than anyone ever knows yeah the stuff that doesn't get out is always it's always the craziest part yeah like you made up this thing we used to like bring like tabloids into the like choir room and just read them out loud for everyone and we all laugh because none of it was ever ever true and i will say like we were also it's family so like if there is a disagreement or sort of infighting we can talk about it yeah but if anybody else says it oh absolutely very defensive of it because there was

one time i think there was like one article that was a little too close yeah and we're like first of all who said that like who like we can handle this internally this is nobody's business Because it's not, it sounds disproportionately like a big deal when other people hear about it. Like you said, they try to cast you in these caricatures of what they think you are. Yes. And it's like, that's obviously not how life works. We're not doing that. No.

And so, yeah, there was a moment where then we all, even if we had a disagreement, we all banded together to be like, who's the mall? Yeah. We don't do this. Yeah. We handle our shit in the family. Thank you. Yes. like we can have disagreements that's fine that's what humans do and we come back and we're all

family at the end of the day and I think that's where a lot of those probably in a lot of sets it gets blown out of proportion and misconstrued because yeah you just hear one side of it but most of the time it was all fun and it's also just so silly because it's like listen humans are human they have conflict they have drama they fall in love they split up people get their feelings hurt sometimes over real things sometimes over nothing you know you have to have growing pains with people and I think they forget

like what I always say about a set is it's sort of like an arranged marriage you don't know any of these people and then one day you show up and you're just married you spend 18 hours a day together and you have to learn people's personalities quirks

how to communicate everyone has different communication styles everyone has different backgrounds like it's a really wild thing to have to do and then also shoot 10 pages of dialogue a day? Like, it's crazy, but we do it. It's a miracle if it works. It's a miracle if it works. Was it weird for you or relieving for you when it was time to wrap and move on? Were you like,

I am so ready to get out of here? Or were you like, wait, what do you mean? We're not coming back to work on Monday or a little bit of both. I think it was a little bit of both, but mostly of wait, no, let's not stop this. I think I, because the magic of showing up to Paramount to work, there was so little turnover in our crew. Yeah. That it was for the most part the same group of people for six years. Well, we shot it for seven years, but it was six seasons. Yeah. And so that part was like the really sad part because every time you got picked up for another season and come back. You're like, oh, I get to drive through these gates. It's such a beautiful lot. It was like romanticizing the whole Hollywood thing of it all. And, you know, like we got to sing and dance

and we felt like clowns and like this is not serious and we're entertaining people. And the show turned into that thing where it was representing a lot of different people who weren't normally represented. And that felt good. And it just checked off a lot of boxes that don't normally get simultaneously checked off when you get a job like that. Yeah. The other part of it was it did feel like it was time to just put it to bed. I think after Corey passed, it was, the show never really recovered, I think, internally. And then I think creatively, I don't even know how the writer, the writers had to go into the writer's room and then start writing immediately.

Oh, my God. How do you do that? I don't know how they did that. But I just think, you know, it's a different, it's weird going to work after that. It's weird showing up to the same places. And the show just never also creatively yet recovered, I think, from that. And so it wasn't, didn't feel the same, it didn't feel good. It didn't, like the work, I think everybody tried their hardest.

I'm not trying to shit on anybody. But I think it was, I mean, Ryan has said that. came on our podcast and said, yeah, we probably should have just stopped it. But the same time, it also felt like maybe this could be a cathartic thing. Yeah. I mean, how do you, how do you recover from something like that in your life, let alone having to do it in real time on camera with 200 people? That's heavy and hard. Mm-hmm. Very, very strange is an understatement, but yeah. Yeah. But to your point, I mean, everything from the most fantastical sort of romance of what your career can be to seismic loss you guys really did

all of it you you had such a wide spectrum of experience on your show did you and jena want to do a rewatch so that you could make sense of it all like how because first you launched showmance and then now we have and that's what you really missed which by the i'm obsessed with artwork um not to make a full pivot but that's how my brain works but what did you want to kind of have a space to process everything and and get to really hold on to the good stuff what what what made you want to go back and do this i know i know us girls needed to and there was a point where i was like well listen now the world knows our boss was a fucking monster and a creep um and he can't really do his shitty old line of like, I don't know why these

girls would make up these stories about me. I was like, bro, we haven't even told people the worst of the shit you did. You should feel thankful. I hope you never crawl out of the hole that hopefully you've crawled into. But we wanted to be able to own our own joy. We wanted to be able to say

like, that wasn't his world. That was our world. Like once it came to us, once the scripts were in our hands, once we were on set with our people, like that was ours. And when He came to town, it was a bummer, but like, that was, that's for us. We wanted to throw out the trash and hold on to all like the good antiques. What, what was the reason for you to?

We did not want to do it. We, we started showmance, and then we just kept getting asked about glee. And we're like, okay, I guess we'll do a rewatch. And we sort of half-assed it. We, it was pre, and that's what you really missed. Showmats evolved into a glee, rewatch podcast. It was like a special project, basically. Yes.

And so we did it. And it was fine, but we were not really into it. Okay. And it was. Oh, I love this. And then Naya passed away. Oh. And then we were just like, no, no, no.

Immediately we're like, yeah, we're not doing this anymore. Well, and to have it happen twice. I mean, I can't... We're like, we're done with this. We don't want to watch it. We just needed a break. And then a couple years later, my brother-in-law, who works for I-heart, he was like, you and generally should think about doing, picking up the Glee-R-Wat, the Glee Rwatch podcast again.

Wasn't even saying I-Hart should do it. He was just saying, you guys should just do it. It was great. And I was just so resistant to it. We're both like, I just don't, I don't think so. I don't want to, it's hard. It was hard the first time because it was the first time I had watched it since Corey. And then after Nye, it was just like, we don't need to revisit this.

Let's, let's just not. But I don't know if something was in the air or Jenna and I were sort of like, let's just talk. to them. Because IHeart then came to us and we're like, look, you guys can do this however you want. We think it would be great, you know, for X, Y, Z. And something in this, I don't know what it was exactly. We're like, okay, let's do this. I think we shifted in our minds how we would do it.

It would be like an intentional thing. Let's talk to the crew. Let's talk to everybody who was really on it. we talked to Ryan Ryan wasn't involved in the first one Ryan was like yes let's do it I'll come on and do the first episode like great

and he sort of spilled everything we ended up being two episodes and that sort of set the precedent and gave permission for everybody to be as open as he was because if the head person

is like the filters off and here's all the things that I think we did right. Here's all the things I think we fell short on. Then that permission structure changes for everybody. And I think like what you said, it was also about reclaiming the narrative because that ended up being the biggest thing for us was people were talking about a glee curse and people were talking about everyone hated each other. Oh, the show was, you know, this, this and that. And the weird thing that happened after night. I passed was that we all, with Ryan, sort of reconnected. Everyone sort of erred their grievances with

him. And he took the call. He called everybody for the most part and just sort of took it. Because people had, you know, issues. Sure. But that's real life. Yeah. And he's a different person. He has kids. He has this empire. Yeah. But his brain is a steel trap and he does not forget anything and sort of owned up to the ways in which he fell short and in his defense I also think you know nobody trains you to go from being a writer to running a billion dollar business within a year no there's no way to know how to do that correctly and so that coupled with like guys this was like such a joyful experience for us we really did have the best time sure there were hard times especially towards the end And like you said, after you spend that much amount of time with people, there's going to be, especially when there's, you know, emotional strain and personal strain like that towards the end where there's going to be some shit that happens. Fine. But for the most part, on the whole, like we all had the time of our lives. And I just felt so passionately about changing that narrative publicly. Because the only thing that really made me sad about when people talked about the show,

criticize it all you want the storylines blah blah blah go for it but the drama was bullshit and we were all obsessed with each other we're all still great friends and so and you know how many times have like half

the cast of glee been at your house because like we travel in groups and we were totally come out over when we were still shooting the show yeah and so it's exactly that thing it's like family you you said it perfectly as you work out your shit, which is inevitable because we're all a bunch of human beings in spaces together.

Yeah, it's messy. Like, being a human is complicated. You can work it out in your family, but the minute anyone outside your family talks about a family member, you're like, don't you dear. And we absolutely had that. And I think that's also really special. I think when you love people enough, not because you have to, not because you're related, but because you are privileged enough

to go on a journey together and you love them enough to work through the hard stuff and come out the other end better and you get to relish in your joy like what what is cooler than that especially because and you know it's such a specific experience

and rare and weird all of those things like understatement like it is it's so weird and To be able to always have those people who know exactly what it felt like at that exact moment in your life is invaluable. And if you can do whatever you can to hold on to those relationships, I think it's so important because it's foundational to who we are.

And that informs anything we do afterwards as people or professionally. Even getting to interview people through the podcast, people who came on as guest stars or were on for, you know, one episode or two episodes, we all still feel that deep connection with each other. And I don't know if that's normal. And I don't know if that's just because the type of show it was or the way it impacted people externally. But there is a weird glee bond that we all have. And we have it too. Yeah. And I think it's something to really be proud of because we all fought for it probably didn't even realize we were but again going back to how wonderful crews are it was they were a real time check on how we were doing as friends and as co-workers because they would say

all the time that the way you all get along is not normal and that's they're like penny one of the assistant camera operators I remember her saying to us she's like I think part of of the magic of watching you guys on the show is that your real life chemistry is coming through. And after she said that, and we all heard that, there was no way to not see that. And now we're watching it too. It's like, oh, yeah. Yeah, do you see that? Oh, our real life chemistry is filling in a lot of holes. Yeah. Where our reactions to people performing, just the way, you know, the little glances to each other. I'm like, I don't know if that's real or if that's acting. but because you can't tell

I think that's sort of you know and as the show goes on the writers start writing for us as real people well and everything gets blurry oh it's very blurry we're in season 4 right now

and it's very blurry Santana has just turned into Naya and I'm like this is you're like what is happening yeah but I think you know we all we all were obsessed with each other and I think that helped the success of the show as well

yeah and now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy and I think you will too. Do you find, I'm curious about this because, you know, different. It wasn't on a global stage, but, you know, me and some of my loved ones lost someone years ago that we loved with our entire beings. And it's a really hard thing, I think, to navigate young life loss. And one of the things I find, you know, almost a decade out of it is I love talking about my friend who passed away.

I love when people talk about him. My friends and I love when people bring up his name, like, because we still carry him. Now that you have, not that it ever gets easier, but I do think distance allows you to be more capable. of carrying, you know, big emotional weights. Like, you're talking about this thing in season four and I watch you light up when you're like, oh, Santana just is Naya. Like, you're laughing.

Yeah. Are you able to, like, really enjoy getting to be with a piece of your friend now? And it feels like such a gift that we get six seasons of Corey and Naya being so talented. Yeah. I, the one of the most, I mean, it's not unexpected, but it was, you know, it's not planned for. Almost every guest we've had on who worked on the show has some personal story about how wonderful Corey was to them.

Where it was like their specific interaction with Corey. Almost every single person. And we had no idea when new people would come on to them. the show he'd take them out to dinner and talk to them like doing these things as a leader because on the show he was a leader but in real life i don't even think we realized what he was really doing to make people feel comfortable that were in front of the camera and behind the camera our tour manager just told us how because he would be so good with fans he would always be late to the venue to do the show and so she started getting coffee with him

um before call time to make sure he didn't get caught up in the fan stuff and then for years after that continued to get coffee with him back you know when we were back in l.A. and had this like wonderful special thing with him and hearing those stories is exactly what you just said. Like obviously you know with loss it's hard it's heavy it's often very challenging to even put into words how all complicated how complicated that is but hearing these wonderful positive experiences about people you love and are obsessed with it has just been such a gift yeah and seeing naya just be so good and we used to get mad that they used to write the characters so similarly to how we were in real life but selfishly now i'm very thankful for it because i don't know what happened

the past couple episodes where i am now in this rewatch But it's just, it's, I don't think there's any separation in the character. And it just reminds me of all these wonderful, it reminds you too. Like, I could send you clips. You're like, oh, yeah, I've seen Naya have that conversation with our friends. Wow. And yeah, it just, it feels like a gift. And I love it.

And I love talking about it because it does feel like something we can share. And it feels like I, the biggest fans of both of them and their abilities and how they were as human beings and as friends. And so anytime I can talk about them and spread that because we do all get to, we get to carry that and tell people about it. And so it feels like a privilege to be able to do that. I love that. That's really beautiful. Makes me want to sob, but like in such a good way. Yeah. It's, it's a weird, always a weird set of emotions. I mean, there's been some episodes where we've watched, oh my God, there was an episode a couple months ago where I literally started bawling. And took a picture of myself and sent it to Jenna.

And Marco, who you know was here too. He just happened to be in town. He was watching to him. I look over and he's like hiding his face in a pillow because they did flashbacks of Corey and Naya to like the first few episodes of Glee. And it was just like, oh no, was not prepared for this. So, you know, it is tough. But it's life.

We were all so young. and learning how to grieve personally is horrible and hard and learning how to do it publicly is even harder and weirder. But again, it's one of those universal experiences, and it's one of those experiences that we now have a vast network of friends to lean on for those things because we were all that close with each other. Wow. And you, and like you've experienced that.

And you also know our friends who we lost. And so it becomes just this extra level of empathy and understanding of the human experience and condition that we already share. And it's nice to know that you can sort of, you know, unfortunately empathize in those ways with people. Yeah, it's like a club no one asks to be in, but thank God you have people in it with you. And I would say that is true for loss. It's true for divorce, that's true. Like, no matter what anybody thinks it is, they have no idea. But thank God when you've got people who have all the ideas because they're in the trenches.

Yes. And you never know, it's also one of those things, like you never know who's going to be able to, I don't know, like, be the person to unlock something, to understanding. like my when Corey died my brother randomly said something to me about like grief or he's like he's like just don't worry about how you're feeling he's like it may hit you today it may hit you in three years he's like it doesn't happen on a schedule he's like so just allow yourself to feel however you're feeling right now and don't judge yourself for it yeah and I never expected him to have he like came through with this piece of wisdom's like who is this and I have gone back to that so many times.

And it's so useful. And you just never know. And it's like, damn, yeah, this is a club I did not want to be a part of. But, you know, I guess luckily for us, there are people who are part of that club and can help guide us through it. Yeah. Yeah, I had this really surreal experience last summer when like a group of us was leaning on each other in this like, you know, tragic moment of dissolution, like four friends all going through divorce at the same time. And it's like really hard when you hit the point where you're like, oh, today's the day

I'm going to admit that like the thing in front of me is dead. Like it's a carcass. Like I can't keep trying to revive it. And that was happening at the same time that two of our other best friends were pregnant with their first babies. And there were days where we'd be like, whoa, let's get the divorce girl club and the first time mom club together to sort of be like, what's happening on your island? Right. You know? And it's like, it's a trip, but you need people in your life that are going through the same thing that you're going through. And that doesn't mean any of your other wonderful friends aren't capable of being there for you. It means you need a person and who can go, ah, you two, whether it's good, bad, ugly, whatever.

And I think, like, I don't know, I think grief is like that on obviously one of the harder sides. I think when we talk about, you know, as you mentioned earlier, like some of the ways we bonded over our first shows, it's really fucking rare and weird to have your first show turn into like a hit show. Yeah. And it was so, you know, me and my castmates are like, man, we went through this thing together that was so wild. But it was also so helpful for me when we were. became friends to be like, how are you guys doing this part?

How are you navigating this? Like, how are you dealing with, you know, the fact that some tabloid had their story meeting on a Tuesday and has, like, made up something about your life? Like, it's crazy. But it is this really special thing. And so I'm going to ask you this, even though sometimes it used to drive me crazy when people ask this, interestingly, the silver lining of our podcast is that it sort of changed my answer now when people are like would you ever like want to take a trip back like to tree hill

as an actor now i'm like honestly maybe i would love to see brook davis like running the town or something yeah that could be cool like from this vantage point now that you guys have you know reclaimed it you own it you're having such a good time with and that's what you really missed are you ever like i'd go back like i could be the choir director now like or does it feel like it's done for you oh that's complicated that's okay by the way you can just say that if you don't want to expand on it i think if we didn't think too deeply about it in terms of how it would work logistically don't go there that'll make you crazy yeah absolutely time of my life i think we would all have such a great time i think all the crew would come back like i think it would

be because they're all still in ryan murphy world like i think it would be a great time and Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, my God, I love it. And now for our sponsors. I also, not that this relates to what you're saying, but I love that we're so far over time. I'm a third of the way through my questions for you. It's fine. I knew this was going to happen. So I'm going to horseshoe us around to the activism part because you have been doing so much good work for so long. This year, you won the Human Rights Campaign Visibility Award this year. How silly. That's wild. No, it's not silly. It's beautiful. And I get, as a person who, you know, deals with how much or how little of your life to share, not necessarily knowing how to do it.

I have had the good fortune of knowing Austin. I mean, since you guys have been together. But you didn't really publicly address your relationship until 2018. I think people were all, they all. all got it. It's like, you know, Tobin and press finally confirmed they've been together for eight years and the whole world was like, yeah, we know. Duh. Like, but it's complicated, I think, to figure out, like, are you going to let people in or not? I find that the only reason I ever have is because it's been sort of done for me and then, like, what am I going to do? I'm a human being. I want to go out and, like, be in the world. Yeah. What, how do you decide, you know, I know you said when you were wanting to be the weatherman in Tornado Alley, you were like a closeted little gay kid.

But like, how do you decide when you want to do this? How did Ariana Grande fit into the picture? Like, how do you, how do you say, now's my moment to go out and be visible, as the HRC award says, in the world? To your point, I wanted to just, I got to the point where I wanted to just, live my life and if I was seen in public not have to explain anything but I was in relationship and so for me it was about I felt

beyond ready you know just like I we can do this because I would like to be able to like talk about you I would like to be able to just be out at a bar or a club and kiss you and not have to worry about if anybody's watching and whatever yeah um and so one day i was just like are you cool with this like if i post something or say something and he was like i don't give it i'm like all right it's time well i didn't and i didn't do it then

there wasn't like a conscious it was sort of let me just i just wanted to know that if something did happen if it did come up because we so we met when we worked on a mini series together and he, in press for that show, he got asked a really sort of tasteless question by someone about, like, so like who was hooking up with who, like, trying to, like, dig. Because there was a lot of these young, a lot of, like, closeted people on the show. And so, like, you're only asking that question if you're trying to sort of out somebody. You're trying to out someone. That's gross. And so in that moment, I knew I was going to have a.

an interview with that guy the next day or something. And so I talked with my manager and my agent. It was like, look, this may come up. What do you think I should do? And they were like, you say whatever you want. We would never tell you not to say something. I was like, oh, God, this is on me. Tell me what to do.

Yeah, but it made me face it for the first time. Because I think growing up, I just assumed that that would never happen. It would never be an option. That would always be closeted. And I somehow, I think, romanticized it or fetishized it in a way where I was okay with it. You find a coping mechanism wherever you find it. Yes. And I think that, and I didn't realize it was a coping mechanism until one of the producers of Glee at some point was like, I think this is what you're doing. I was like, oh, no, you're completely right.

And having been on such a joyous show about queer expression and acceptance, it was also weird that I never. did it, but I think I had seen how Chris Colfer was treated and was scared of that. I sort of got to live my life in private and I had a boyfriend and it was great and nobody knew and, you know, so I was taking advantage of, I was playing a straight character. Nobody even questioned it. He didn't really have a choice. And I got away with it. And I think at some point being in my mid to late 20s, I was like, like, what am I doing? Yeah.

I need to be able to live my life and I don't care. And I don't, I'm not worried if it's going to take away from work opportunities. And if it is, who cares? Like, I don't. Like, okay. Yeah. So something to, I think maybe having that success young,

it made me feel, I know, it probably sounds so stupid, but it made me feel more secure in myself. in a way of being like, well, fuck it. I don't need you to give me a job then. I've had the success. And so I'm not worried about it taking away opportunities.

Because that was, I think, really the only reason why I didn't say anything sooner. But then Ariana Grande, I put out a new song and I just made a joke. That wasn't even like my intention. I didn't even think people were going to infer that from that tweet. Wow. All I said was that the song was, gayer than me you know like that'd be a normal joke we'd make like I just thought I thought it was funny but again that's that's you being a whole person not this sort of small percentage that the

world precedes you as which is what happens when you live a public life like it was so weird for me finally leaving something that like just proved to really not be good for me and like finding this really unexpected joy and then having having it be treated like fodder where I was also like, have you guys like not been paying attention? That's what I said. I literally always said I would never, I don't play characters I don't represent.

Like how many women have you seen me hook up with her on camera? Like by the way, Ryan Murphy's first ever TV show was my first arc on TV and Kate Morrow was my girlfriend like, hello? I mean, there's something about your house. There's something gay about my house.

Something deeply bisexual about my house. Something deeply bisexual about your house. I die. I don't know what it is. Who knows? But yeah, it was so funny to me. But I also had to learn, similarly to what you're saying, like, I almost had it in reverse where, and obviously in the 20 years I've been like in these sort of activist spaces,

I've had to learn a lot about all the internalized fill in the blanks, misogyny, homophobia, whatever. And for me, I understand now why in my 20s. some elder gays in my life, who I deeply respect and adore, we're like, oh, honey, you're a girl, and, like, you can be a little fluid, but girls are just more experimental. Like, you're not really by. And I got this whole thing about, like, you know, great that you've been going to the Pride Marches since you were six, and we love you as an ally, but, like, also the community's under enough threat. And, like, you're a very privileged, privileged, like, white girl on TV.

You don't really need to take up space here. And I was like, got it. Allyship is my jam. And eventually I was like, I kind of think that like, you know, when people say if there's like smoke, there's fire, I'm like, I sort of think that like this many experiences and very real feelings in my own body tells me more about who I am than like anybody else. But, you know, the running joke for many years being like as soon as Dua Lipa asks me on a date, like I'm out. I was like, turns out not my type. I have a very different type, and she's great. I love the two of you. Seeing you two together makes me so happy. Also, she's the shit.

I mean, the best person I know. I mean, she's... Like, truly the best person I know. And when I want to, like, snap and I can feel the, like, Brooke Davis in me wanting to be outlandish, she reminds me to be, like, soft and gentle and kind. And to take the high road. Like, everyone thinks I'm the Michelle Obama, and, like, she's the, like, wild one.

Like, absolutely not. I'm out of my fucking mind. And she's like a sweet teddy bear. She just has tattoos and people are very prejudicial with stereotypes. Like the first time you introduced you introduced me to her. You were, I've never seen you so giddy ever. And like just the biggest shitting grin on your face like that. It feels really nice to be happy.

Yes. And you were just like telling me about things. And I was like, I could not be happier for you both. Well, we're both obsessive, yeah. I mean, anytime I see you guys, I'm like, I got to leave my friends over here. I got to go see my friends by. Yeah, and like doing all the things that we get to do together in the world. Like, it's really fun for me when I see some of my favorite people, not just, you know, at a house party or friendsgiving, but like at the White House, out there doing good work.

Yeah. And like, it feels nice to be in a moment where, as you said, you could just be yourself. I feel like I get to be more myself. Everyone I know who really finds joy, no matter how long it takes, who finally learns to choose themselves in their own happiness. Like, what a gift, because you teach people by being. And so I guess, like, when we look at this whole landscape, you know, things we're revisiting, healing we're doing, reclaiming we're doing,

all the joy we've got, like being loved, being embodied, all the things. Like, as you look out, obviously you and I are working on the election. Duh, we know that. But when you look at the year ahead of you, what feels like your work in progress? Oh, God. Okay, beyond the election? Okay, that's response un. What about what about what about what's next?

What's next is I have such a good group of creative, friends and people around me that I love and respect and we have so many ideas of things we want to do and get made and some of them we think will help make the world a better place and so it's about um actually following through on some of those things and not just talking about them in theory and actually let's figure how to do this and I think that would be just it's so fun because also just getting to put people together, almost producing the situation. Yeah. I want this person to work with this person and like, let's figure out how that's going to work.

And I just want to do a lot of that and figure out how to make these sort of dreams and wishes actually happen. Me too. Count me in. I'm ready to go. Sign me up. All the things. Okay. Great.

Cool. So we have a plan. God we can have this chat. Okay, great. I can't wait to announce our next project to the world. all right i love you go thank you so much wait i have a confession what i don't know if you remember this the other day i was talking with my brother so you're having one of your parties and i brought my brother which i had never done oh like friendsgiving party or st patrick's

no it was or just random house i think it was like one of the music night oh a living room show yeah yeah okay and it was a bigger one because they started off pretty small and they like yeah they started to really grow yeah ed sheeran was at your house and i was like that's new i were like walking in i'm like he's very famous and my brother we were on the balcony upstairs and my brother so what i thought happened was my brother put his beer on the banister yeah and then turned and knocked it down and it fell where ed shiren was standing not 20 seconds before Oh my god But I realized

I almost killed Ed Shearhan I blamed my brother I was like my brother I bring my brother one time to your house And he almost kills Like the biggest artist in the world But I realized it was me It was you

He put the beer stupidly on the bandister So there's that Not a great call with glass but fine And then I turned And knocked it over And it went like Flipping down to the bottom And splattered

And I just remember Looking over because I had looked down right before and Ed Shearren was right there. Oh my God. And then you come running out and you look up and I was like, oh my God. I'm so sorry.

Like in the middle of your party, I almost just kill Ed Shearer. Listen, nobody needed stitches and I'm very obsessive-compulsive. So I have like a dustbin and a little thing. You did. You were out there in seconds with the dustbin. I've got them all over the place. Yeah, it was very impressive.

but I felt horrified. I just need to get that off my chest. Okay. Do you want to publicly apologize to Ed Sheeran or do we feel like we've done it? I'm sorry, Ed Sheeran for almost telling you. We never even met. I just almost severely injured him. Clearly he needs to join you for an episode of the podcast.

Or maybe he should be able to avoid me. What if Ed Shearin is a massive glee fan? Well, okay. Hey, internet, help us figure it out. Yeah, because I need to personally apologize. I don't even think he, I don't. I don't know if he realized how close he was to a beer bottle smashing on his head from a second story. Touched by an angel, I guess.

He really moved just in time. I will never get over it. Anyway, I feel much better at having it. Because I was literally giving my brother shit for it the other day. I'm like, remember when I brought you to Sof's house and you almost killed that cheer? And he's like, is that right? He's like, you did that. And then we reconstructed it.

It was like, yeah, that was me. Oh, my God. Well, look at this. That's what they call Groves. Just like owning your mistakes moving on, right? My bad, Ed. Mr. Shearin, we're glad you're still with us. Yeah.

Please keep making beautiful songs with that beautiful soldiery voice. New music soon? Please. Please? Thank you for coming. Go do your other job. I love you. Tell Jenna I said hi.

Bye, everyone. This is an IHeart podcast.