Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Kim Raver

Episode Date: April 17, 2025

Get ready for a big dose of fun when Dr. Teddy Altman makes a house call to the pod!Yes, it's a Cass and Teddy reunion! Actress, producer, and director Kim Raver joins Sophia to talk about Grey's Anatomy, from breaking down the dynamic of their characters' on-screen chemistry and how they approached the will-they-or-won’t-they open marriage storyline — with Kevin McKidd and the writers too! — to some fun behind-the-scenes stories you need to hear stat!Plus, a blast from the past! Kim talks about her TV debut on Sesame Street and how public arts changed her life. She also shares her inspiration for getting behind the camera, attending Debbie Allen's unofficial school of directing, and swaps stories with Sophia about each of their first days on Grey's and how the cast welcomed them to the set!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Work in Progress. This week, we have a guest many of you have been clamoring for. She is an incredible actress, an incredible advocate, a brilliant human, and happens to be my love interest from Grey's Anatomy. This week we are joined by none other than the legend herself, Kim Raver.

You likely know Kim as Audrey Raines from 24, Kim Zambrano on Third Watch, and since 2009 as playing the iconic Dr. Teddy Altman on a. BC's medical drama, Grey's Anatomy. I have had the absolute pleasure of working alongside her this year, bringing Teddy and Cass to your screens. We're both big fans of y'all's chosenhip name for us, Cassidy. And this year, not only did I get to work alongside Kim, but I got to be directed by her. And today, I can't wait to dive into talking about her creative process, why she is so protective of and has so much love for her character, and how she looks back in hindsight on having been on one of television's biggest hit shows for all these years. Let's dive in with Kim Raver.

I'm just so excited that you're here. You came on the Zoom and I was about to be like, hey, girlfriend. And then I was like, wait, the internet will die for that. I think you should. Just because. Okay. Maybe that's what we'll call our episode. I like it.

Hey, girl. Hey, girlfriend. We have so much to talk about and I'm so excited. But before, you know, we dive into our last year of working together and all the years I've been lucky enough to know you, I actually want to go backwards. I think it's so exciting to sit down with people who have such amazing bodies of work and who are doing such cool things in the world. And I wonder if you got to hang out with a childhood version of you, you know, you at 9 or 12.

If you could spend time with that little version of Kim, would you see the woman you are today in her? Or do you think she'd be totally shocked to meet you? that's such a great question it's so interesting and i don't know if it's like generational but i feel i feel like the younger kim like you said nine i think yeah like that wasn't even in the purview that wasn't even in the i mean maybe it's also it was just like survival like i mean i'm i you know grew up divorced parents very young age single mom raising me and my sister by herself in New York City and and the like the good fortune of it is that we didn't have phones and TikTok like there was there it was it was um so there wasn't sort of this

like what am I going to be kind of thing which is amazing and kind of great and um I mean I joke because I mean I'll go back a little bit you know like are the this parenting generation is much more sort of like helicopter. And I think it's because we were so left to our own device. There was like an ad that I was like would come on television and say it's 10 o'clock. Do you know where your children are? Yes. I mean, right? And now it's like, I'm like, I'm tracking our kids and I'm like, where are they? Are they? You know, so there, I think the younger me was like just sort of putting one foot in front of the other and, you know, getting to school in New York City and the 80s by myself. And that's not to, I mean, my mom was on it. But she was also a working mom

and newly divorced and that wasn't really a thing. There weren't a lot of, A, there weren't a lot of women in advertising working. And B, there weren't a lot of like divorce A's like, so there was that aspect of it. But then I found, you know, it's funny, I was in Sesame Street as a kid, but I never consider myself as like a child actress. It wasn't like, wait, was that a regular job or you like did a couple of episodes? That was like a three year job. Kim, how did I never know this about you? It's funny. I said it like that because everyone knows. Everyone's like, so you're a child or that. I'm like, no, I'm not. That was like my mom was shopping for clothes for my sister and I and someone was like,

hey, your kids would be great on Sesame Street. And my mom, again, my mom was a single mom. And she was like, great. It'll pay for private school in New York City. Take them. You know, and it was a place for me that was steady and protective. And, I mean, there was these doors in the green room that said, one, two, three, open sesame. And then I would go into this, like, magic world.

Right. So for, but that wasn't like, oh, I'm going to be an actor, right? It just was like, oh, this is a world of make-believe that I love so much that I see, you know, I see the, you know, the Carol who was Big Bird was an amazing, Mr. Hooper, all of them, right? So that was, but then I think, I mean, look, I was a very, you know, my sister was very much, like, really studious and like an incredible academic and more quiet. And I was just like, yeah. I think that being on Sesame Tree was definitely like a place of like, oh, this is kind of a world. And then it really wasn't until later that I got more involved with it. But to answer your question of, would I have imagined that this is where kind of I would be? No, because it wasn't really, it wasn't really kind of premeditated. I mean, yes, at 13, I kind of was like, oh, yeah, this is definitely what I want to do.

Wow. Why? Was there a moment by 13, or were you just watching more TV and more conscious that that was a thing people could do as a job? I think it was my mom. My mom took me to a lot of stuff in New York. I mean, a lot of, you know, whatever she could kind of, you know, get us to or afford. And she took me to this theater company and it was called the First All Children's Theater. And it was kids from six to 18. and really completely diverse. It wasn't sort of like what we have now, like after school. It was a real theater company. If you were a minute late, you were kicked out of the company. Wow. And that there was no excuses.

There was no, oh, my bus was late. I mean, there was so many times where I was literally like running across Central Park because I had missed the bus that would get me there on time. And I think, and you know, Elizabeth Swados wrote. one of the um one of the productions and you know we would go away at christmas and we know we performed at the kennedy center and kind of it was a real touring theater company yeah um and i think it was really in that moment that i i was like oh this that's where i kind of realized it was a craft yeah and that it was something that i wanted to do that's so cool yeah so yeah i think that that's sort of

sort of really where it began. Wow. And I didn't realize I'd be making these connections listening to your stories today, but listen, I'd be remiss not to say you literally grew up on Sesame Street. You're a PBS kid. And then you're talking about being in a theater company that got to perform at the Kennedy Center. Like public arts changed your life. Which how important now more than ever, right?

Yeah. Yeah, I think people forget that not only is PBS a service for the parents who are making sure their kids are getting supplemental education at home, but look at what these public arts programs did for you in your own life. It's really beautiful. Yeah, especially with my mom not being able to kind of be a part of other things to find, and it's interesting because I hadn't thought of it through that way, but it definitely you know, it changed my life. It changed.

I could see it changed the life of people who were coming and watching this theater company and all of the other kids involved. I mean, there are really a lot of kids who didn't have their parents around because they were working and, you know, financially needed to be at work and they couldn't be picked up at school.

And so I think also that, sort of thing of the discipline that it gave all of us and also sort of a center that was all of our owns that came from very kind of fractioned families, which I think, you know, PBS also reaching not only locally, but also when we think about how it has, like you said, sort of educated many of us. Yeah, I mean, generations of kids, it's so special. And I hope it can be a great reminder to our friends at home that it's an organization we're supporting, especially right now when it's under attack. Yeah. Did you feel like you had a backup plan if acting didn't work?

Or were you like gung-ho as a teen? I'm doing this. And like, I don't need a plan B. You know, I mentioned it before. My sister is such an academic. I mean, when she went to two IVs, like undergrad and grads, you know, And also like a, you know, very prestigious boarding school. So part of me was like, maybe I should make sure that I have, you know, a backup plan.

Because the percentages of people who work, I mean, you know, they're like, they're tiny, tiny. And so I did make sure that I did study, you know, I went to BU and I went to their acting program. So I did make sure of that. But I sort of did feel like it was it was theater or bust. And I kind of always thought that it was going to go the theater. I mean, yeah, I thought I was just going to sort of be the theater route. I didn't know how it was going to go, but I knew how I felt when I was doing it. And it's so interesting because, oh, to answer your question back, which is I remember sitting in the audience and watching

one of the performers in this theater company and he had a light about him it just was like this inner thing and I was like whatever that is like that's for me and that's why I signed up to audition for that theater company after I saw his name was Joseph after I saw him perform

and I think that that's what I kind of always come home to it's like that it's that feeling. And I feel so lucky and so fortunate that I get to actually do it. We all know that there's so much of it that's, it's like trudging along to get to be able to do it. Yeah, to get to be a working actor is so hard. And also what a wild thing to talk about in the context of the 21st season of Grey's Anatomy. Like, that just doesn't happen. that's crazy. And I know that you, I mean, you joined really pretty early when you think about in the lifespan of the show. It was 2009. It was during the show's sixth season. And six years is also a

long time. Were you a fan of the show? Had you seen it? Oh, God. So were you nervous walking in there? What was it like? Take me back to 09 and what it felt like to start going to play at Seattle Grace. I think the funny thing is, is that to speak, you know, like a show going on in five years, what is funny is when I was doing 24, it was sort of the height of the success of 24, the height of the success of grades. And so we were kind of like, we were not rivals at all, but like we were always, our tables were always next to each other, like at the end of or SAG or. So it was like, you know, the reason I also kind of knew all of them is because, you know,

at some of those, you know, like for people who don't know, like those award shows, you'll be sitting. And my chair would be like touching, you know, Sandro's chair or whatever. So, and it was like, who's going to win this time? And look, those are amazing, amazing times. And I'm totally aware of those. But what was funny is so it was literally sort of three years of that. Yeah. And then.

I think I might have even met, I'm pretty sure that this is how it happened. I'm Betsy Beers and Shonda Rhymes at one of those awards. Wow. And, you know, we kind of both had some fan moments. And so then when I found out that I was going to do Grease, it was this sort of crazy moment of, oh, God, well, how are they going to, how is it going to be when I've been sort of like, you know, like we've been sort of like on this path.

Yeah. On opposite like teams, right? Right. Like all of a sudden, you know, you're, um, you've sort of been like these athletes all along and then all of a sudden you're like, oh, and now we're on the same team. And I remember, uh, I was really nervous. And like, it was, yeah, because I, it was the day because they were such a tight knit group kind of similar to 24 and, you know,

go through so much those first years of starting a show, as you know, with, I mean, your incredible success. And so I remember, you know, on the soundstages, we have, like, they emptied out the whole soundstages. So it's like this huge airplane hanger practically, pitch black, except for a light on this giant rectangular table that had everyone. Like, all of the network in the studio and the producers and the writers and the entire cat and I had to walk in to this whole group, which it feels so different now being in it because when someone comes in, it's just, it just feels, I don't know, it feels different, but it was so daunting and I'll never forget I had this sort of like complete, like just anxiety of walking into this group.

Wow. And Sandra O. from the opposite table, like it's far, like if I'm at the door, She was like at the far end table. She like got up in front of everyone, came around, came towards me. And I was like, and she just gave me this huge hug and welcome me. And from that point on, it was just sort of this incredible. I just thought that was one of the most generous, kind. And that is also who Sandra is.

Yeah. But so that was sort of like the beginning of it. And I was like, oh, okay, here we go. And now a word from our sponsor. who make this show possible. A lot of people have asked me what it felt like walking in with you guys at the top of the year,

and I would say the same. And you have, and I've talked about this, I mean, perhaps ad nauseum for listeners at this point, because I've spoken about it in every interview I've done about our storyline. but you have such a warm, lovely, grateful set. Everyone's thrilled to be there. There's so little ego.

And I'm sure that takes time to iron out. And I'm sure, you know, in 21 years, how could you not be so well-oiled as a machine, all of you? But people have asked what it's like. And I said, you know, it really kind of took my breath. at the second table read I came to, I was like, wow, every single person from the number one down shows up for this. You know, and similarly to what you're saying in your story, you know, I walked in. It was actually the first one I'd been to for our second episode. I think I was on the East Coast

when you guys did the table read for my first. And Ellen got up and walked over and gave me a hug and said, thank you so much for joining the show. You just don't know what it does for us. And I was like, ma'am Ellen Pompeo, ma'am. But she's right. I mean, she's right. Like, we felt so, just so lucky and so happy

to have you. And you have just been an eye. I mean, I'm sure, because I've been saying it in every interview. I mean, you are just such a light. You're just so collaborative. And talk about shining light. walk into the room and everyone feels it on set and you're you're just such a collaborator and i just

love how you're like how how can we make it the best possible day and what's the most efficient and yes most fun and you can tell i mean you've just been doing it for just so many years your your professionalism is extraordinary and thank you friend jump in i mean so i think we that's really genuine. I mean, I think we all, to have, you know, such a shining star, like, walk in and, and, you know, sort of effuse, you know, that your light and your talent and your professionalism and your intelligence. Oh, my goodness. Was really and is incredible. And I also, you know, it's funny, there's been a lot of stuff about, like, you know, women supporting women and, oh, they're not really supporting women. And I totally get that. But I do have to say,

everything that we do, there is that ripple effect. And your support for me when I was directing and just coming in also was so extraordinary. And I'm so filled with gratitude because that energy is pervasive to the crew. And yes, it's, you know, you were coming and joining us. But it is a part of the sort of women supporting women and expanding and growing. And you're so generous. You are just not, you know, there's some like this sort of gatekeeping and whether it be on set or you're like, oh, you're going to Boston with your kid. And I have this incredible friend who like, you know, and you connected.

I mean, you guys, literally, she was like on the phone and she's like, oh, you've got to meet this amazing person. She's so great. And she is this magnificent woman. And it didn't surprise me that she was such a superstar like Sophia. But what you're talking about. about is exactly how it felt for me. Not only do I, when you talk about, you know, 2009 and the experience you had walking in and Sandra ran up to you and I had my experience walking into the table read and Ellen was so generous with me. And then of course, there's, there's Miss Debbie Allen. I like,

I'm going to die. Talk about an icon. And I go, hi, Debbie. It's such a, it's such a joy to be here. I'm Sophia Bush. And she yanks my hand toward her and goes, I know who you are. And I'm I was like, okay. Hi. And then you are just, every single word you said about me, I want to mirror back to you. You are brilliant and exceptional. And I can't tell you how joyful it felt and also refreshing to watch you, Kevin, Debbie. I mean, everyone, the crew, Byron, the way he runs a camera crew, everybody cares about the work so much and you're willing to pause and say, you know, what'll be more interesting is if we do it this way. I know we settled on this idea. This one's better. It allows someone like me who's coming into your space to feel like I can

bring my full self and I won't be accused of being, you know, pushy or I won't be told, we don't have time for that. We've already done this. It, it, it, it, it, the rip. triple effect goes both ways and it creates so much freedom and it's so exciting and there are plenty of shows that haven't been on nearly as long where everybody's clocking in and getting ready to clock out as soon as they can and to be on a set that is so playful and so much fun and also willing to take risks you know the the fact with this topic yes the fact that you know as teddy play this bisexual woman, that you have your whole beautiful storyline with, you know, your partner who passed away and what that means for you and Kevin as your characters fall in love and you

have to figure it out. And to see a show, be willing to say, hey, sometimes marriage is hard. Sometimes maybe you've married someone you love, but maybe the relationship isn't healthy. And instead of judging it or making it ugly or making it, I don't know, something untoward, you come in with the opposite of judgment and say, let's explore something. Let's give people room to have conversations. And the conversation, the idea might not even be the result they settle on. But let's explore things and remind people they can talk to each other. And I was like, hello? It's just so fun. I think there's because, I mean, I really feel like there's such a sense of collaboration. I mean, yes, look, television is really fast and we all got

a move and we all know that. But in terms of collaborative feeling, especially with this topic, because I think both Kevin and I were nervous about sort of- Oh, yeah, tell me. What was it like when you guys found out you were going to do this? I'm dying to know before I showed up. Whenever you're shooting, like Meg, who's amazing, she's our showrunner. And We've started this little kind of trend where we go to Joe's bar, because it's usually where we're off, where we're shooting, and it's kind of that next set over. So we kind of go over there and we sort of talk things through of like, what's the next storyline.

And when she brought us, you know, sort of that she was sort of tinkering with the writer's open marriage, I was like, okay, I was like, we need to sit down. So, and we also wanted to do it where we were the three of us together. to be really sort of consciously aware of how Kevin might be feeling about it, how I might be feeling about it. And so how, so when she brought it, I was very much, um, sort of, I wanted it to be mindful and purposeful. And I wanted it not to be just, um, sort of something to do, like, kind of like, oh, let's just do something like really. I wanted to be ground. and like sort of with consent because I felt like

had gone through a whole like a cheating spell and I didn't. Right. And I said to her, look, you guys are going to do whatever you want to do. But if I have my input, my input is that it's not that they just want to cheat, that it's actually, in fact, a way that they think perhaps could save the marriage and that Teddy has, as a character evolved, that Teddy has actually evolved from this giant mistake that she made of infidelity. And I didn't want it to be tied to infidelity because I thought that she moved forward.

And so that was, there was some just really amazing dialogue between me, Meg and Kevin. And she would digest kind of what our concerns. were go back with the writers and then they would kind of work through it. And again, I really think because you came in and brought such depth to Cass that it was so much more

than just, again, sort of like a fling thing. And you and I had a lot of discussions about that and really hashed it out because I think to me it's really interesting when stakes are really high and that helps ground whatever new idea we're trying to kind of do.

And what's so amazing about Shonda Rhymes is that she's never afraid to lean into the complicated. And, you know, while as an actor, you're so protective, you're like, ma, I don't know, but this is really. But for me, if I can get to the nugget of the truth of it and what the stakes are of it, I can fully get behind it. And so for me, I kind of really got to, well, I mean, it's either trying this open marriage or it looks like they might not last, right?

And so whether open, whether you believe in it or not believe in, and I think what's interesting is that it's very complicated and very messy and very multi-layered. And again, that is sort of what Shonda never shies away from. really enables the characters to kind of go from low point. And I'm not saying that there's a low point, but a low point in their marriage, for sure. But a low point in decisions that are made to kind of your hero moments. And I think that that's also very relatable to fans.

I think a lot of television is sort of either hero or, you know, you know, evil. And I think that we as individuals, we have our hero moments. and we have our very, you know, low, bad decision moments. So it's going to be, it's interesting too, right? It's interesting how do you, how, in your experience in the last couple weeks, how have the fans, how are they digesting what's happening? And now a word from our sponsors.

It's really interesting because. Even before, you know, we had to do so much work, obviously, and we shot so many episodes and you do all these things so long before it airs. And one of the things that really was important for me, and you touched on it a bit, was the amount of conversation you and I got to have about this. And something that felt important to me that I know was important to you was that this wasn't some tawdry affair thing as well. You know, I went through that 20 years ago.

It's followed me around for my whole life. It's miserable. And it's something I'm like very sensitive about even having to be adjacent to. That, especially because, you know, not to be crass, but what you so often see is some guy that cheats on his wife and he's a dickhead. And the dynamic in particular here about two women really. expanding their idea of intimacy and fulfillment in their 40s was interesting to me. And I think what's interesting to me is I do know a couple. They're a heterosexual couple I've been friends with for 10 years that are in an open marriage.

I am still the friend that's like I could literally never, I would die. And we laugh. But on the flip side, they're also one of the couples I know who's been married, the long. and they have a really healthy relationship. And something I learned years ago from another iconic friend of ours, Connie Britton, she said, you know, she said, I never judge my characters, ever.

It's not my job. But you said something that I think really rings true, which is we love our characters. So when we are worried they're doing something bad, we worry about them being judged. We have like secondhand embarrassment or secondhand fear. And what I loved about this was that it was real honesty among adults saying nobody talks

to you about this. Like the Disney movies don't pitch this stuff to you. They don't tell you how hard it's going to be to, you know, be in a relationship. And they don't tell you what it might take to stay in one, especially if you want it. You know, I like that Cass and her husband really like each other. I like that they have a spicy energy. I like that even though it wasn't on the page, we added a beat where, you know, when he and Owen have to go back to the hospital, he kind of looks at me like, she's cute. He gives me the go ahead, you know, in that first episode we did together.

And so what I found was a desire to turn the idea on its head and to represent people that, you know, aren't necessarily on the page, but who I do know. who I do care about in a good way. And then when you and I started to talk about what the intimacy is, particularly what this intimacy is between two women, particularly how that is just a simply different energy that they're not getting from the men that they're partnered with, what it is to...

Feel seen, to go so long, feeling invisible. And then to have someone see you that can be intoxicating. it can be a kind of chemistry but then you have to figure out is this the kind of chemistry I have with my friend or is it a different kind? And so the slowness of being able to explore all of that

felt really important. And I have to say all of that to say that now that the episode has aired, what's amazing is so many of the fans are like, I can't explain it. I'm such a Teddy and Owen fan, but my God, I just want Teddy and Cass to be together now. And people are really excited about it.

And even the ones that hope you and Owen work it out are like, I don't know, maybe they can just be friends because we like seeing these two women together. That's to me also. And I love that. I know. I love that. And you created, I mean, so many moments, but one that really stands out to me is when Teddy kind of has led cast, you know, down this road and that she's ready. and then in that moment of sort of feeling conflicted and saying that,

whoa, this is not going to fix my marriage and kind of stops it again. What a beautiful moment that you chose for Cass to have sort of such compassion and understanding. It's such a like a whisper of women supporting women in ass's reaction. to when it's a beautiful unspoken moment and it's very moving to me and I think also subconsciously people are like oh yeah whatever happens with them right yeah and that's it and you see it and you see that regardless of of sex or sexuality or desire or whatever word you want to use being the top line idea you see that it's an actual connection And it was so much fun to build that with you because I feel, as my friend, I feel so connected to you.

And you're such a wonderful artist to collaborate with. And so it was so much fun, you know, to do all of that with you. And then I sort of had a giggle because I realized, you know, you and I have all this stuff, obviously, given the Cassidy. as they're calling our ship name, given the Cassidy storyline, most of our work is away from Kevin, who plays Owen. But then I got to have this whole surgery day with him. Oh, I know. And the difference, oh, my God, we had the time.

We had so much fun. Because he's such a great guy, right? Kevin is such a wonderful man. He was also directing the episode. Oh, my God, that's great. He's such a talented director. So I was with him and Chandra and James, and I was just like, oh, my God, all my TV.

idols. I'm like, I'm doing surgery with the people I grew up watching a surgery show about, oh my God. Which, by the way, we have to share with your fans. Like, like, most people come in and it's a whole like, what the, how do I hold? She's like, I got the hand the thing. And she's like, you know, she's got the cardiothoracic surgery down. It was so fun. It was the medical, the medical advisor on the show was like, God, I love when people have played doctors before. I was like, I got you. I'm sure Linda Klein was like, oh. Oh. Oh. it was fun but it was great because doing the scenes with him you and i got to explore all of this intimacy and all of these ways women can see each other and support each other and and have a

different kind of rhythm with each other and then it's like i went into surgery in the in the previous episode with kevin and we were such bros and he's he's like a pissed bro and we're we're scrubbing in and i just look at him and i'm essentially i don't i don't call him this but I basically am like dude my bad miss reddit you're good not here to get in your way and like it was so it it was almost like we were we were two boys playing brothers in a scene and then you and I are these like incredible like you know adult women having having this conversation about how they how they have intimacy and I was like this is so funny because I got to be this woman that I really admired in one sense. And then I got to be like a nine-year-old boy.

Oh my God, that's so good. I love that. Yeah, playing hospital with Kevin. What is your relationship like with him? I mean, you guys have had this, you know, decades, almost long relationship. You have this very storied history as characters. And obviously, you speak so highly of him. Did you always get along? Were you so excited when you found out Owen and Teddy were? going to have this great love? What was it like in the beginning? From the moment we met, it's just this fantastic like work marriage. There's such a respect for one another. You know, I think the base is there's such a trust between us because we've had to go to some pretty, you know, our characters have to go to like these very dark, hard, vulnerable,

intense places and also we had this very kind of confusing, you know, with Sandra O's character Christina and there was single and Teddy and Christina, like, wanted to be a team and not romantically at all, but in terms of like mentor, mentee and she was sort of willing to give up Owen to work with Teddy. And so, you know, automatically there could have been this just like very, very, very, tense a relationship, but we had such an organic chemistry, really

with the three of us, me and Sandra and Kevin, because we had to navigate a lot of stuff there. Yeah. So I sort of feel like from the moment I met him, you know, I came in, Shonda Rhyhymere's brought me in. I think I was just finishing 24. when I first, first started to meet everyone, like to meet Kevin and sort of see if that was going to be a good.

And we just, I remember us like sitting on this couch and I was like, hey, hey. Like we just had such an easy sort of effortless. We kind of have the same sort of work ethic. And similar, you know, he had been on a bunch of shows before.

I had been on a bunch of shows. And, you know, he's incredibly, you know, welcoming because he had been there for a while. and I just sort of trust him and I hope and I think he feels the same. So we're able to go to very raw places as creatives. And I think to be able to be on a series that does have to move so fast. And it's a really, it's a luxury to kind of have that relationship of trust and to

be able to try things. It's like I know, I sort of know that if I'm going to be in a free fall that he's going to catch me, which is so great because it means that you can really as an artist step out of your comfort zone and know that, you know, your partner who you're, you're out there with is going to have you. So I think, you know, he feels that same way, but I think that that's, you know, and there's massive amounts of stuff that we have to tackle at a time, you know. Yeah, of course. so yeah it's just really been kind of just lovely and respectful and you know you spend so many hours and i think that that's also why we were so protective of this storyline yeah because we our characters have been together for so long and not i mean like what you were saying i thought was

really interesting and love connie britain i mean i know her all the way back from our new york theater days and yeah um it's interesting because it it wasn't so much as judging the character but but safeguarding that we weren't just going to do something to do it that there was real deep intention behind it similar to the conversations you and i had about open marriage and what is the story that we're telling yeah that it really had a depth to it and and i i'm sure that the writers also wanted that same intention. But, you know, the writers are always steps ahead of us when they bring us a new idea. Yeah. So just to kind of hear from them, like what they're, what they're thinking. And I have to give the writing team just such a huge

shout out, if you will, that they listen to what our concerns are. And look, if our concerns are like, you know, kind of bullshit, then they'll call a bullshit, right? But if they actually are making sense, I feel like, you know, Meg really listens and kind of goes back and sort of reworks it and hones it into, here's the initial idea, here was input and it kind of amalgamates into, I think, where we are today with, you know, the storyline of open. marriage and then also all of your incredible input and finesse to it so that so that it's a deeper thing rather than just kind of clickbait yeah well and that's it right you no matter what you're doing you want to humanize it because that that i also think is the way out of judgment of your character it's the way out of feeling like something is gratuitous to make something really real to give it emotional legs to think through it intellectually and that was part of what was so much

fun for me you know coming in with you guys because you care so much and you do so much work on it that you know it made me feel like I could also bring the best version of myself to that I'm realizing that you know I was saying how I'm seeing care how I'm seeing fans react to our storyline but how are the fans reacting for you? I mean, you've been part of this world for so long and I imagine you have a relationship with the Gray's fan base. Like, what's your internet look like right now?

Are people excited? Are they upset? Are they all the things? It's so interesting because, you know, I wanted to be home when our, like, the episode that I directed aired and I was away. So I haven't done like a sort of deep diet. Oh, you're waiting.

I'm kind of waiting to like, Because it just, you know, I mean, and then the finale and I do think that there's mixed feelings. I think we definitely stirred up the, and I get it. You know what I mean? Like, it's kind of like, what's so cute is I'm realizing now, the fans are going through what I went through when they first said, oh, we're going to do an open marriage. Yes, they're going through what you went through in Joe's bar. Hang on.

What the fuck are you talking about open marriage? What? So I think, and then, and then some people split off and they're like, yeah, this is fantastic. I'm shipping that, you know, Cassidy and I love them and sort of like how we feel about like all of our scenes. Like we love it. And then I'm like also like heartbroken like like in terms of like, oh, hold on. Is Owen hurt? Like what's happening?

And then Owen's like what happens with where Owen is going and his storyline and. So I think from the small little at the airport of what I read, I think it's this mix of sort of like what I went through. Yeah. You know, of. Yeah. And, you know, I get it. Like when you've been shipping a relationship for as long as Teddy and Owen have been

together and there's something, you know, and it's on the precipice of not making it or making it. Yeah. That's really scary because I totally get why people. I mean, people, I was skiing up on the top of a mountain, like, it's like way up there. And in Italian, this woman at the cash register was like, are you Teddy Holman? I was like, yes. Yes. And she had, you know, feelings.

So it's just so interesting that. it reaches such a, like there's such a huge reach to it. And I think it's that organic thing of like, well, if this relationship is not making it, what does it mean about my relationships? And I think that that's also okay. Like I think that that's what's really cool is, and that's also why I think Grease has lasted, you know,

20, going into 22 seasons. Yeah. We're all on the roller coaster of these characters. Yes. I totally get, I totally get the confusion, the ships, the, you know, the wanting of all the different things and the confusion of the new things. And yes, it's sort of a multitude of feelings, I think. I love that. I love that. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. When did you start directing? I started, my first thing was with Alyssa Milano.

Wow. You, you know, you guys have a similar thing of just supporting other women in so many aspects of life. There were these three books that I, you know, with a couple other people, we were like, let's try to, you know, make these into films. And we ended up getting the rights of like seven books, but then they couldn't figure out, you know, sort of where to put this one book. And again, it was about a woman,

a really interesting story. And so through like a sort of long, you know, kind of hall, we ended up getting three of them made. And one of them I directed with my husband. And he directed another one. And then I went back to Grace. And then there was the third one. But it was just,

It was this feeling of, you know, having kind of done the acting lane for a while that I just was like, oh, I want to see what it's like from other perspective and having someone like Debbie Allen and Kevin and Sandra Wilson and watching them kind of, you know, put on a totally different hat and sort of lead the way. really opened up the sort of that door for me and so and I think I don't know if I'm repeating myself but you know Debbie Allen doesn't just hand out episodes like if you're on the show it doesn't mean that you're going to get an episode you have to really um it's almost like the Debbie Allen UCLA film school that she's not in collaboration with UCLA but I just mean like you have to um shadow and train um yeah and really sort of prove that you've arrived at the knowledge that you'll need to do it. And I, and that is what is also so incredible about her is so that, you know, the first episode

of Grace that they gave to me, they could have been like, oh, let's give her like a small little up, you know, she hasn't done it here before. They gave me a huge episode and it was incredible and it was such a, you know, I mean, I had a car hitting two of the actors as a stunt. I had a brick hitting another actor. I had a song. I had a birth. I had to have a real baby,

but it was COVID, so they weren't kind of allowing it. So I had to advocate for that. It was an amazing storyline about women's reproductive rights. It was a massive episode. And really, thanks to Debbie, I felt very prepared for it. And that also, I think, is incredibly important.

And she understands the importance of not only like when it's so hard. And everyone says, oh, it's better for women, it's better. It's still really hard for female directors, right? So that when you finally have that opportunity, it's one thing to have opportunity. It's another thing to be prepared and skilled with that opportunity. I really feel like, you know, it's Debbie's knowledge of that, that like you kind of get one shot at it. And if you arrive and you don't have the skill for it, you might not. So she makes sure that when that opportunity does, you know, come knocking, that you're really prepared.

And she's just been an incredible mentor. And she's just really, I mean, you have to know your stuff, have done your homework. And it goes back to those days of being in that theater program. And if you're a minute late, you're kicked out. It's discipline, right? Yeah. There's something for me that is so incredible to have the sort of years of acting experience and to be able to translate that into something that's sort of like in the same vein

as acting, but a totally different medium. I feel like it's like it's just like blown my mind and opened up a whole other lane for me, which I, I just, I love it. Yeah, that's so cool. Yeah, and Kevin was so supportive and Chandra. I mean, they were just amazing, everyone in their own. And I mean, and that crew, I mean, you got to experience that crew.

Our crew is just amazing. I just really, I love them. They work so hard. They are there before everyone and after everyone. And they give up so much of their family time. And I really, I'm just blown away by. each department's talent and like we're really lucky it's incredible i mean the from the set builds and the way that they can accordion down and expand into other things i mean you're lighting

rigs everything i was like oh my god this is an amazing place to come to work yeah it's a really good really good group and to see such a you know and to see so many women there too i mean we've got also an incredible female DP, and she's just amazing. Yeah, and on so many of the departments, so that's really great. It's really cool. How do you think the show manages to stay so fresh? Because 21 seasons of material, I mean, do you think it's partially because there's never a shortage of medical stories? Is there, like, secret sauce in the water? What is going on over there? I feel like it is that thing that we sort of touched upon of the willingness to go to a dark side of sort of, you know, humanness and then also really show hero moments.

Because a lot of medical shows that haven't lasted, you know. And so it's got to be something, I feel like, that Shonda has. into, you know, and I, I mean, the fans are, it's a lot to do with the fans. And I really, I just, I think that, you know, Shonda was willing to take certain risks and do certain things that we then carry on throughout the seasons that really just, I mean, that is sort of lightning in the bottle, right? Yeah. Amazing medical shows, but for whatever reason, they don't stick.

And I think so many of us, you know, you and I have done shows that haven't gone on, which were like, yeah, shows, but they just don't, for some reason, they don't connect or, or a studio or a network hasn't given its time to evolve. I think that's also a really big thing in terms of, you know, times have changed, whereas shows are able to evolve. I think so too. There's not as much time. So I'm sure those medical shows would have stopped.

suck around. Yeah. You know, in terms of grays, I really, I just feel like, I think the humanity of what all of these people are going through and the ability of the writers to, yes, come up with medical stuff. But even like the open marriage thing, I'm not sure other shows would have tackled that. You know, they would have had that thing of like, well, is she going to be likable after that? You know what I mean? Like, you and I've heard that, and I don't know if your fans know what that is. Yeah. The likability trap is tough and female characters in particular, no matter what they are, even if they're assassins. People are like, but is she likable? Right. They never ask that about the men? They never ask that about men. It's so weird.

And I think that that's what's really cool that Shonda and the writers and our show, is able to like really lean into that and not be afraid of that. Wow, that really strikes me as something, especially for the fans, I think. Because it just hit me that you have women who run your show who trust how smart your audience is. They're not thinking that the fans are going to suddenly not like a character if she's human. Right. Well, I mean, and think about the pilot of Gray's, how it's Meredith who is like sleeping with Derek

and then the next morning he's like gotta go like you know it's all it's sort of like it it kind of bends the stereotype on its head and not afraid and not afraid of it

and I don't know how they also are able to have that and still and maybe that is because yeah like you're saying the fans are like yeah I relate to that

like yeah I you know oh a human woman what yeah I love it okay I'm curious about this because we touched on a little bit it's fun to go into

a surgical scene having a little bit of surgical background you have done so much surgery on this show. You have played a doctor for so long. How much do you think you actually know?

Like if there were an emergency and I was going to say like I know you. You're like I know you after being with you so much this year that like I think you actually

really absorb that stuff. Like I think like if I was on a desert island with you I'd be like yeah I want her operating on me. Like I didn't.

Like you, I'm, I would say I'm really good, like in an emergency situation. I feel like I could be a total badass. And I want to, in my mind, feel like, oh, yeah, I could do it. I don't know if like the recall of like, oh, yeah, you would be great at, you'd be like, oh, this is the blah-bibla-of-the-blah, and you blah-blah, and you would like kind of like all regurgity and I'd be like, yes. I remember down here where the heart is. That is so funny.

But I'm not quite sure. Did they say to connect these two? Like also, like if I was putting together furniture, you would be my first call. Right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm so good at that. See, like you remember all that shit.

Yeah. Like you, like, so I don't, if I had to take a medical test, fucking forget it. No way. but if you showed me the cavity of a body around cardio, like thoracic stuff, because that's all, that's what Teddy does. I think I could kind of like connect some dots. Okay. Okay.

I like it. There's like paint by numbers. I did tell this story once in an interview, and it's kind of embarrassing, and I'll tell you, because I think I did tell you, the short version is my husband and I were in a plane, and, you know, all of a sudden we heard, ladies and gentlemen, if there's a doctor on the plane, can you please come forward? We have a medical emergency. I started to get up.

Oh, my God. Just your subconscious. I've never seen him in this. He went like green. He grabbed my, he was like, what are you doing? I was like, there's a medical. He was like, you are not a doctor. And I was saying, I know, I'm not delusional.

But part of me, I don't know whether there's that part of like, Yeah. I can fix anything. Of course I could do this. Yeah. By the way, I got to admit, if I was on a plane and they did the thing and no one got up, I would get up. Yeah, but I would. So what do you think? Like, could you save that person? I did it once. I told you. I knew it. Desert Island, it would be you. Yeah, it was at a music festival, a girl started having an epileptic seizure and I knew what to do and people were like oh my god are you a doctor and i was like no but i i i i was like what i can't explain right now is why i know what to do in this situation but i do what to do in this situation and it's like what i realize it's probably more honestly from having

been a camp counselor and literally having to keep other people's children alive and who you are sure i know a lot about a lot of things in weird ways and i do think if we were on a plane and there was no actual doctor. I'd be honest. It's not like I'm going to be like, sometimes I, no, I'd be like, look, I'm not a doctor, but what's going on? Because like I'm CPR certified and I do have all these other things that I know how to respond to. So let me try to help. My mom gets upset by that. She's like, you are the person that if there is a disaster, like if there was an explosion in a building, you run toward the building while everyone's running away. And I'm like, obviously, I'm going to,

I'm going to help. And she's like, you're my kid. Run away. Run away from the disaster. And I'm like, oh, I see. But you are a doer and you are a fixer. I mean, do you, I mean, do you I think the first time we actually really met, and I'll tell your fans, you were handing out homemade soup to the UPS delivery man during COVID. I was. And I was like, I love this woman. I was like, oh my God, you're my neighbor. Was that the, wasn't that the first time? Yes. Yeah, I made soup for JP.

He's wonderful. And then you gave me honey. I did. Neighborhood. Yeah. We're neighbors, by the way, everyone. It's so nice. We have a cute, we have a cute little zone in the city.

We're not going to tell you where it is, but it's a cute zone. No, but it's cute. And we do love our UPS, man. We do. For life. And now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy, and I think you will too. This is a random question, but because you've done the show for so long, I'm curious, because the answer for me was yes. Have you ever stolen anything from the Grey's set?

Yes, the first time I left, I stole my scrub cap. Cute. Because there's so much meaning in the hat for Teddy with the birds and Allison. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that. I mean, I waited until we wrapped, but I took, I did take some things. Like, the funniest part is that when we wrapped my, my girlfriend Hillary, who's one of my best friends from that job, was not working on the show anymore. She had left after the sixth season. So the biggest and most, like, not incognito in any way, she had performed things that I stole were actually for her. Like, I stole her this chair that had a table attached to it. I was just going to say, did you steal a chair? Yeah, it's like a 1950s telephone chair, and then I stole her a lamp.

Time out. How did you walk out with a chair? I mean, I drove up to the soundstage and just put stuff in the car. Now, in my defense, they were selling everything off. Okay. And I was like, I'm going before the- Wait, this is your show, not from group. Oh, not from Grace.

Oh, my God. It was like, how did you pull up? You thought I stole a chair from Grace? Load up a chair. Could you imagine? No, but I did actually. I took photos. They were redressing some set

and there were these sconces and boxes. And I asked the set deck team where they came from and they were like, oh, they're vintage. They're from a prop warehouse. So I took photos of them so I can try to reverse image, search them and see if I can find them online anywhere.

Oh, that's really good. I wanted to steal them, but I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't actually like steal, steal. But I was like, if you're going to sell all these things that have immense emotional meaning to me to strangers, I'm going to take what I want before the sale. That's totally, yes. I mean, they were selling them. They were giving them away. Exactly. That's how I felt about that.

Exactly. I like that you have your scrub cap. That's perfect. I'm just realizing how long we've been talking. I could talk to you forever. I wish we had a glass of wine and we were in the same place. Well, we're doing that walk. We're doing that very soon. I will ask you my last and favorite question to ask everyone who comes on the show, who graces me with their presence. What feels right now, like your work in progress? As a human? In any way, whatever comes to mind, it can be a career thing, a personal thing, anything you want. Oh, my gosh, so many things. I'm always working on making sure the only opinions I listen to come from people who matter to me,

which in our line of work is really hard. I am working on saying no to more things because I want to say yes to everything. I want to do everything for everyone. I want to get on every Zoom. I want to help with every project, and I just don't actually have enough hours in the day.

Right. So I'm trying to get better at saying no, carefully. and I am, I am constantly working on letting how happy I finally am in my life really hit me. That feels nice. Hard and a great one. I think that comes from learning how to love oneself. Because if we learn how to love oneself, then we can accept the love.

from the other. Does that make sense? Yeah, maybe. I think it's kind of a great thing. Those are all amazing and beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. I think really continuing sort of following this directoral pathway.

Cool. Yeah, it's really, it's just something. that I just love that, I mean, for me, that moment when the first time where, you know, I had at least the gray's one where I sat at home and I was kind of figuring out how to do this new thing. And then I was at the Game Boy, which for your, it's the one you have the three. I know you know, but for your fans when you have like the three screens and you can see the three cameras shooting at once. And I, it was like, it was like all of a sudden, like, being a diver underwater in the ocean and seeing all of these things that I had never seen

before. So it like opened up like this whole world for me. Yeah. And I'm just so, I just feel like there's, I'm so blown away by it and I feel like there's so much to learn. And what's so exciting to me is to sort of find something within the field that I do, that I love, but that's like blowing my mind and I I love that like where I am in my life and my career that I can find something that really turns me on and excites me and terrifies me you know not sure what the path is and to really kind of lean into that and yeah um and I think um I think something also that I'm I'm like working on is is similar saying no, but it's like voicing when something is not is uncomfortable or not working for me. I'm so used to, you know, being in agreement and, you know, and I think

directing is also helping me find my voice in that because when you're directing, you have to lead the troops, but for me also in a very collaborative way. So I think I'm trying to translate that into my life of instead of, like you said, sort of saying yes to everything. I think also as women were taught to, especially in this business, to not, you know, rock the boat. Don't, you know, don't make any waves. Don't, you know, and you have to find all of these ways to kind of like pretzel your way through the thing because you don't want to like be difficult or be labeled in any way or and I think what's been so interesting about directing is it it enables me to sort of speak up to what and believe in my own vision um and whether it's right or wrong doesn't matter

what what matters is sort of the collaborative uh vision that I have and believing that that is of importance so that is kind of my life and as well as like into my vision creatively So that's sort of what I'm working on. I love that. That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing. Yeah. And thank you for coming to hang with us today.

Thanks for having me. I know all the fans are so amped to hear from you. And it's been such a joy to come and play on your show. I know having you too is a real gift. You're just like I keep saying to everyone, such an intelligent, collaborative. unique, talented, amazing human being. So it's just been such an amazing, amazing season. And I hope we have more stuff together. I do too. Fingers crossed. Yeah. Cassidy forever.

That's so cute. All right, cutie. Thank you. Enjoy the rest of your day. All right. Thanks, honey. This is an I-Heart podcast.