Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Lena Waithe

Episode Date: January 23, 2025

Lena Waithe spent her childhood watching classic '90s sitcoms, dreaming of one day becoming a writer — and she made it happen! The Hollywood powerhouse made history as the first Black woman to win an Emmy for comedy writing for "Master of None" and is the creator of several shows, including "The Chi."The Emmy-winning writer, actor, producer, and podcast host shares with Sophia the invaluable advice she got in college that set her on the path to success, the writers that influenced her, what it was like when she first got to L.A. without any connections, embracing the things that make you different, and her advice to aspiring writers.Plus, Lena reveals what inspired her new podcast, Legacy Talk (distributed by Lemonada Media), why she got into the publishing game, and all the details on her company’s first ever children’s book “What I Must Tell the World: How Lorraine Hansberry Found Her Voice” — out now! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Hello, friends. Today we are joined by someone that I admire so much that I have cherished for such a long time and who I think is hands down, one of the coolest human beings that I know. Today's guest on Work in Progress is none other than Lena Waith. You know her as an Emmy-winning writer, producer, actor, and the founder of Hillman Grad.

She is known for Master of Nunn, The Shy, Queen and Slim. Lena's film credits, TV credits, they just go on and on and on, from winning awards at Sundance to again being Emmy-nominated for documentaries. Lena did not come to play. She is an incredible creator in every single. sense of the word, which is probably why she was named one of Time Magazine's 100 most influential people all the way back in 2018. She was included on Fast Company's Queer 50 List in 2021 and 2022. Lena just keeps on winning. Born in Chicago, Illinois, Lena always knew that she wanted

to be a television writer and was lucky enough to be supported by her family and along the way discovered that she happens to be a fantastic actor too. I cannot wait. to talk to her about her journey, her creativity in every single vertical that it touches and the ways that she thinks about storytelling. And her latest project, her brand new podcast, Legacy Talk with Lena Wave, which is a love letter to black women in entertainment. She sits down with incredible icons and trailblazers to discuss their creative process, their journey, and how they became the women and leaders and artists that they are today. Legacy Talk really is more than just a series of interviews. It's a documentation of the stories and experiences of women who have

shifted narratives, broken barriers, and inspired a generation. I am not surprised that Lena is tackling this latest vertical with the same curiosity and excellence that she brings to every single project. Let's dive in with Lena Wath. Lena, I'm so happy that you're here today. I'm so happy I'm doing this. It's like my first thing of the day. It is.

I love that. And you know I just love the shit out of you. I was trying to tell my producers today when we jumped on, they were like, how do you guys know each other? And I was like, I The Michelle Obama book signing is where we met. Is that where we met for the first time? I think that's where we met.

Oh, my goodness. Maybe we were on social before that, but in terms of meeting, I think it was there. Yeah. I just remember when, like, we started getting in the DMs, like chatting about things. And I was like, wait a second. I really admire this woman as a storyteller.

And I also think I love who she is as a person. Like, are we going to be friends? And here we are. I love it. Yeah. And also we have a great mutual friend, Alex Edelman, like the homie, the brother. The best, just the yummiest little bro in the world. Ever. Yeah. So I was just like, oh, man. Okay. So something I find really fascinating about you, because we know a lot of people that are multi-hyphenates, but you are like, you are like a multi-hyphenate in like an algebra problem. Like you just keep stacking pieces of the equation. And when I put my,

interviewer hat on and started to dig into things about your life I didn't know I had no idea that you always knew you wanted to be a writer like since you were little and I ask a lot of the folks who come on the show because people know you as you know public figure you're all the things you are I always like to see if you could meet your nine year old self if you would see who you are today in that child and I'm like well obviously you did because you you always knew you wanted to be a writer. So, like, can you tell me where your interest and your love of storytelling started? Do you have a moment where you knew, or was it always there?

I mean, I think I grew up watching a lot of TV as a kid. And being in the 90s, it was sort of like a heyday for TV, I think, for us, for young people. You know, whether it be TGIF, you know, full house, family matters, step by step, Charles in charge, Small Wonder, Alph, Empty Nest, you know, and then, but also, like, there were so many great shows with all black cast, like, obviously a different world, which was one of the biggest influences on me. And the Cosby Show, I mentioned Family Matters, Fresh Prince of Bel Air was really dope, which was actually a show that Robert Townsend did, which is sort of like his Cosby show. And so there were just Wayans brothers. I remember it was a really cool show. I used to love watching Living Color coming up.

So there was just a smorgasbord of like TV shows and entertainment with really amazing talent. And I was really inspired and influenced by the kind of storytelling that was happening. I remember Demolition Man. Like, you know, we always said before Black Panther, there was a demolition man, which Robert Townsend did with the blonde hair and like the superheroes in their own neighborhood, trying to save their neighborhoods. from evildoers, and we had all this stuff. And I think I just kind of saw that and thought that that was normal. And there was nothing odd about that. And so, but also I go watching Oprah Winfrey every day and like, you know, an afternoon.

You know, it's like being in Chicago, knowing that's where she filmed the show. It was really a source of pride for us. And I just think it was a really fruitful time. And for me to be a kid, growing up in my grandmother's house with a single mom, you know, an older sister, I, you know, we would ask you kids. So we would come home and watch television and cook for ourselves and wait for our parents to get home from work. And that was actually the time where I think we would be coming ourselves.

Also watching music videos a ton like beatings and watching the box, you know, where you could call and request a music video, you know, that was sort of our TikTok and Instagram and Facebook. We really were, it was very analog. I remember I could walk to the blockbuster, you know, and I end up working there and renting movies. And that's how I remember renting hoop dreams and, you know, seeing Paris is burning like on VHS and discovering these things

and these treasure troves of footage and documentation of stories and people and these characters. Even watching documentaries, thinking about hoop dreams, like, is like a real person, but he felt like a character. like somebody I knew, being from Chicago, trying to play basketball, trying to make his family proud. These are just things that I kind of saw and could relate to and could understand. And I think that was really what the seeds were planted in terms of wanting to tell stories that felt vulnerable and felt honest.

I love that. You know, you're making me realize, too, that we, yeah, I mean, we grew up in this moment where not to say everything was like perfect or fixed, but where art was growing in such a way, these messages of these stories were growing in all of these beautiful ways, more and more people were getting to be represented, we're getting to be on TV. Like, I studied journalism in college because of Oprah. Wow. You know, like I. I know that. I, you will love this when I was a kid. It would take just long enough for me to get home from school. And like when the years that I was like eight, nine. My mom was picking me up at that time. And I sat her down and I was like,

mom, nothing happens in last period anyway. And if you pick me up after school ends, I get home at 315 and I miss the first 15 minutes of Oprah. And I learn way more from Oprah than I learn at the end of the day at school. So I think you should pick me up at 245. And my mom was like, first of all, are you going to be a lawyer? Who do you think you are? And I'm not negotiating with my young child to leave school early so she can come home to watch Oprah. And I was like, she's my class, though. Exactly. Look at you now.

Yeah. And it's like, I don't know. I think about that. And I think we were really, we were so lucky to have her as women that are passionate about the world around us, as storytellers. And we were really lucky to have all these shows and all these creators that you're referencing. We, I worry for today's kids, like anything that isn't, you know, traditional. I'll do the air quotes.

meaning like typically represented by power is suddenly like weaponized as political. And I'm like, maybe it was actually just dope when everybody got to be on TV. Like when we just told all kinds of different stories about all kinds of different people. And the 90s really were this like blossoming moment for a lot of that.

Absolutely. I mean, when you look back at like CNN does like a study about the decades and the 90s one is super, obviously, because that's my nostalgia. But it's true. It was very fruitful time. People were taking risks and music was really dope, you know, and TV and I think, but also I think the Open Murphy show is something that, wow, boy, did we take that for granted, I think, at the time.

Just in terms of seeing a black woman on television, being curious and being empathetic and being open to learning something. You know, she got, remember that was like the light bulb moment that sort of became, you know, famous, you know, on the show. Just the idea of a light bulb going off above your head. Oh, I've never thought of it that way before. That's such an interesting and powerful thing to say on television. For Oprah, who we would think knows all. She was also kind of expressing the people, even though you think, you know, I'm the leader of the pack. I'm still learning things with you.

You know, I'm still growing with you. Yes. and to make learning something beautiful and something to aspire to. Oh, for's book club. Like, yeah, like her gathering people to talk about a book. And it's seen with the author. I remember, like, she had Tony Morrison sit at a table

with all these women and, like, them talking about her book and her literature and asking her questions on television. You know, that was a real thing. And, wow, I just, you know, I miss it sometimes. I do, too. I wish we could go back. I ate up life class when she was like, let me do this show that's like the highlight reel of all my shows.

I was like, give it to me for the rest of my life. Yeah, or masterclass or a masterclass on my own. You know, I remember that Maya Angelou episode, the Diane Carroll episode, the Whoopi Goldberg episode, was raised with me. Yeah. But I think Oprah did a master class too herself. I think she did an episode, maybe, probably. Just a way for us to kind of learn how these giants became who they were, but also showing

you, that giants started out not unlike you, you know, they listened to their inner voice and walked in their purpose. I think that's the big thing Oprah was always really good about, was really sort of telling us, like, the person that you think is the smartest in the world, the most accomplished in the world, the wisest, began, you know, in the way that you did, you know, the house and unsure, and dealing with self-doubt and not knowing and stumbling, and eventually finding their voice. And so it makes you just sit at home and go, huh, well, they can do it, you know, why not I? Yeah.

Do you feel like that's what you were gleaning in those hours, that kind of incredible time you got between when you got home from school and, you know, the adults got home? Were you beginning to see, oh, any kind of insecurity or very human fear I might have, you know, we all asked that question, like, well, who am I to do this? Do you think the lesson was these people all did it? so I'm going to try to do it.

Like, how did you take the leap? I mean, well, I think I wasn't thinking about it in that way at that time. I think that's what great entertainment, content, you know, media does, where I think those, particularly I'll speak about the masterclasses that she would do, and particularly how Maya Angelou, that one really sticks out of my head. But I think I just was taking it in. I think I was just taking it in and I was very aware

who Myangelo was and continues to be in our world, even though she may not be the other side anymore I think it was just important to hear her speak in a talk and I didn't

even understand the weight of it then because I think in those moments that's not what you're doing and I think that's why you know, I think it's not just about images. It's about what are people saying, what's sort of being conveyed, and because it'll hit people later. Yeah.

So it's important just to, you know, just to take it in to digest it. Yeah. Yeah, you were having nice afternoons, like, vibing, watching music videos, and now you look back and you're like, oh, I was taking a master class. I was taking it in, yeah, I was wondering. And we watched Rosie, the Rosie O'Donnell Show, too, every day. That was at 3 o'clock. For us, Oprah was on at 9 a.m.

And then in the evening, and Oprah was in the afternoon. Rosie was at the afternoon, like 3 o'clock. Yeah. Talk shows were a thing. Like, it was a big deal. They still are now, but I don't know. Like, we used to watch, like, the talk shows all the time. Oh, I loved them.

And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. Okay. What were your early days like when you first moved out to L.A.? Like, what was the experience like trying to begin to break into the industry? Well, we had something called the semester in L.A. that Columbia College. I don't know if I think they still do it. I hope they do. But yeah, where I got to spend a semester. you know, about 12 weeks, you know, in L.A. And many, many people were doing it. I was sort of inspired, but the advice I got was make it your last semester.

Because if you go and then come back to Chicago, like you kind of lose some of the contacts that you made. So I took that advice and just got all my credits lined up and did what I had to do and spent my final semester in Los Angeles, which was the best advice ever, because I stayed out here. And they went back to graduate and then came back. But I didn't miss a step. And the truth is, I didn't know anybody out here.

You know, I didn't have any contacts. You know, I just wanted to meet people and wanted to get to know folks and wanted to learn and grow. And that was really, I think, one of my strong points was that I really wanted to just meet folks to see what they were getting into and what they were doing. And if they were aligned with what I was doing, maybe we should kind of link up and hang out. that's just kind of how I've always operated which is a different type of operator and not about what can I get from you but rather, oh, you're doing the same thing

we can maybe share information and see if we can help each other. And I still operate that way. I think that's sort of how I like to move and yeah, and the thing is I think LA is like any other place you kind of find your tribe slowly but surely and then

it was important for me to also hunker down and really home my crafts. And I think that's how people can get lost in Los Angeles about going to things, going to events. A lot of panels were happening when I was first out here, which were amazing. They're not as prevalent now. But it was good just to go network and meet people and stuff. So that's what I was really doing. It was like networking. And then eventually trying to find my voice and get finding jobs while finding my voice and all that kind of stuff. And I do think it's changed a bit now because people, the world is smaller. You can kind of go online and kind of build it all.

audience and build a following, but I think what's sort of happening is there's not that time to home one's voice. And I think that's really where people are able to shine, like, Quinta has a voice, you know. Yes. And Brian, the guy who does an English teacher, he has a voice. Yes. And it's very distinctive. And I think that, to me, is what I hope people are understanding when you're watching English teacher and when you're watching Abbott Elementary, they both happen to be shows that take place in schools and dealing with teachers. But, you know, they couldn't be more different. And I really, it's a great example to show folks is like, that's what it means to be a writer. You both can do a show in a similar setting, but they both

can feel really different. And that's because both of those show creators who happen to be in the shows as well, they have really found their voice. So that's why you know when you're watching habit, you know when you're watching English teacher. Not just because, yeah, they're different shows, but because the voices are so unique. And I think that's why you can find both of them for different reasons. And then when you put on 20s or The Shy, that's specific to my voice. And so I always try to tell writers, I'm like, don't follow the marketplace, no such thing, and don't try to be, don't try to hit. It's really about what is your voice? What did you have to say? What is specific about you? What's a movie that only you can write? That's why I think this

has kind of gone away, but there was this time where people were so afraid, somebody was going to steal their idea. Yeah. A wife's tale about the Matrix. You know, it's like, I don't know what I'm like, I'm like, it's impossible. Like, you know what I can't take, you know what I'm saying? You know what I can't execute it the way you would. So, you know, and also I always tell people, like, if you're afraid somebody's going to take a idea, you got to start coming up with a whole bunch of more ideas.

You know, if you only got one, then I don't know. I love that. What do you think from this vantage point? Because, like, there's a lot of life, there's a lot of work. When you talk about finding your voice, if a young artist is listening to this and it's like, but how do I do that? Like from here, how do you think you would say to somebody

this would be my small slice of a roadmap for you? How do you encourage people? Because you're such a great mentor as the writer and producer that you are. I wonder, do you have advice you like to give people on that? Yeah, I try to tell people to watch a bunch of, TV, watch a book, you know, classic movies. That's really important. I think I always get nervous when someone tells me they want to write for TV, but don't watch it.

You'd be surprised. Really? Have you seen this? No, I haven't seen that. You haven't seen that. And it's always sort of like, it's important to know what's working. Yeah. Important to know what's good.

I like that. And know what you don't like. If you watch the show, I don't like this show. Why not? Why does it bore you? Why doesn't not hold your attention? You know, and then, like, I really love this show. Why do you love the show?

Like the characters. What do you like about the characters? Yeah. Why are you coming back to it every week? And so the thing is, is like, if you want to create a show that people love, it's good to know what shows are out there that people are loving and why. And reading scripts and, you know, talking to writers, you know, that maybe have written something that you like.

I think there's a sort of idea that I can do it all by myself or I don't need somebody else to give me feedback or I don't need, like I still give people my stuff to read and give me feedback and people I respect, people that I appreciate their opinion and I get notes and I incorporate that and the work gets better. And so I think that's something that people don't often see. They just sort of think, oh, I just sit down and write something and give it to something. It's like, no, it goes to a bunch of stages of getting feedback, doing a table read, doing another package. getting feedback again, and then reading it again and trying it again and giving it to someone. And so I think there's this desire, this quick, you know, microwave, nuke, and let's go. And it's just, oh, no, I mean, I just, I have a, you know, I sit down with Debbie Allen for the finale of Legacy Talk with Lena Waith. And I'm not, I'm not like giving away anything too much.

But I asked her, I said, how long did it take you to get Amistad, man? How long? She was like 18 years. No. 18 years. I thought I was like, you telling the story means she's going to say like 10 years. 18 years. And we, and I told her, I said, my school went on a field trip to go see Amistad.

Wow. And obviously directed by the great Steve's Pilbork, who obviously I worked with, and put me in my first feature, ready to play a one. Yeah. But that is something people should understand is that like some things that are really good and sometimes it takes a while. And then sometimes something comes and it's like it's pretty quick. Like it happens. You're like, oh, man, okay, we get this.

But I just really want people to understand that anything worth getting made and getting done and worth having, oftentimes it's going to take a beat. It's going to take a while. It's going to take a while. It's going to take, you know, it ain't going to be the first drive. It's going to be the thousand, you know. Right. And even then you're still noodling and you're still trying to. to make it right. And that's what it is to be a creative. That's what it is to be a writer, just because it's never done. You know, you can always make it better. You can always make it

stronger. And also, now, mind you, that's me every note you get is right for you, you know, but I think that's right knowing your voice is that knowing you're not saying no because you don't want to do the work or because you're afraid to go in and see. But maybe if you say no, because you know what, like that's not the story I'm telling. I get the note, but that's not the telling. If I do that, then it's something else. You know, it's like, but that note enhances the story I'm telling and makes the story I'm telling even stronger and clearer. So I appreciate that note. And that's the big thing, too, it just takes, you know, it just takes time to learn, you know, what notes make sense and what notes

don't. But the truth is, because you got to leave your ego at the door, you know, and a lot of people, me and Gina talked about this on an episode, Legacy Talks. A lot of people give me their material because they want me to tell them it's great. And she was like, and I obviously gave her my material. She's like, you wanted me just to tell you the truth. Yes. And she's like, and I did. And you came back with the new draft. And she was like, and so rare for people to do that. And I was surprised. I said, it is. She's like, oh, yeah. You'll give somebody from them again. And so, oh, yeah. It's happened to me too. Like, you know, so that's why I kind of started to figure out ways. I'm like, how can I, because everybody, you know,

has a, has a thing. And the truth is, they just really need real honest feedback. And a lot of people don't want honest feedback. They want to be told this was great. And I wish you well and I hope this becomes a big hit versus, you know, this kind of slowed down from being the second act or these two characters sort of sound the same or kind of got lost here at the end. Folks don't want to hear that because it's sort of like, oh, snap, okay, I got to go back to the drawing board or I got to like re-outline this or I need to, you know, go back in because that's where the writing begins is the rewriting. Right. Well, what I'm hearing a lot of is that you have to have, you know, on the one hand, you're talking about knowing your voice and your

vision. So you have to be able to, as you said, say that's not the story I'm telling. That is additive to the story I'm telling. And it's the both and it's like the improv, right? It's like on the one side, you really got to know what it is you want to talk about. And on the other side, you really have to be willing to self-interrogate. You have to be willing to not let your ego lead. And I think especially in the world of, um, the constant refresh, right? Like the thumb drag on Instagram, everybody wants new more now, now, now.

And the patience that this shit takes is not for the faint of heart. Not at all. And I think that's what I really want people to understand is that it's a long journey. It's a marathon. And there is no finish line. Yeah. There's no there there. Yeah.

And the biggest advice is trying to get people all the time, particularly writers who want to suddenly write, you know, whether it's for television or for film or playwrights, table read, table read, table read, get actors, get people, get writers, get friends, get neighbors, get anybody that's willing to come to read your work out loud. Because I think a lot of times when you're alone and you're writing these lines, they feel like Shakespeare. But then when someone comes in and tries to say it, they can't get through it because it's really that's not kind to the actor, you know, it's a writer, but the actor has a hard time.

saying, and I always say sometimes writers write lines that don't feel comfortable in actors' mouths. Yes. And so, and that's why for me when I'm sitting down, I say the line after I try to say it. I try to like act like I'm both characters and act it out and go, oh shit,

I'm stumbling over this or I'm having a hard time or this isn't. And that's why I think what I've been really grateful for is that I really try to write dialogue that sounds conversational, that sounds quickly, and that can feel like music. And so So that's what we're pretty tough on our cast on the shy because I want my voice to shine through.

And so people can't ad lib, you know, and they don't get to throw stuff in. Even a man, a huh, this, and that, it throws off the rhythm. And so we always tell the actors, I'm like, it's, you know, for me, and look, and we're going to, we air season seven next year. And so it's like people get used to a certain rhythm or a certain way that these characters or a certain world, trying to find a character. So I need to make sure every line, every word that comes out, like, we're establishing them. We're trying to figure out who this character is. And so we really do need actors to really say the lines and to rock with us. And that means it's even more responsibility on us as the writers in that table reads. You know, like, hey, is that line too hard for you

to say, okay, cool, we'll adjust it. We'll figure it out. We'll try to put it this way or try to hide exposition here. So yeah, it's a lot of back and forth. It's trial and error. It's listening, is paying attention. But again, it's about finding my unique boys. And it goes from me watching everybody from Aaron Sorkin's work to Matthew Winer's work, you know, Judith Madman, watching Nurse Jack, watching Grey's Anatomy. You know, Sean Williams, you know, it's a big influence as well. So it's really about every writer has their own, I was watching Spike Lee movies all the time, but there's a very specific rhythm to his work. And, and yeah, and that's why I always tell people. I'm like, watch the greats, watch the ghosts, listen to what they've done.

and then figure out what your pattern is, what your tone is, what your pacing is, rather than, you know, mimicking, which we all kind of start out doing. Yeah. And now a word from our sponsors. Well, and I love the way you talk, too, about the rhythm of something, because I know what it's like as an actor to say, look, the shape of these words don't fit in my mouth. Can we tweak this?

Can I use this word instead of this one? And I think if there's a willingness to find it, essentially what you're talking about, it's like linguistic choreography. Exactly. You know, you're making this musical, the dance number has to work. And dialogue can be that beautiful if you really have leaned into the work. I love the way you can. frame all of that. I mean, it's just like a look at Mike Nichols stuff. You know what I mean?

It's like it's all very, you know, specific and every word is intentional. And so that's why it's like there's no throwaway lines or words or glances and everything has meaning. And so there can always be a conversation about saying, oh, this isn't working also. But I get real like if we say a word twice, it's like, oh, we say this word twice in the sentence. It's like, let's find a different word or let's take that the second time you say that out. It's really, I mean, you can get Barry, you know, in the weeds about it. Yeah. And that's my favorite kind of stuff.

We like to geek out about it and make sure a scene really feels like its own little symphony. Yeah, that's beautiful. How, as you, you know, you moved out very wisely, you used your last semester well. You made sure you didn't, like, create a little environment and then dip out, which, by the way, I get. like I was fortunate, you know, my first show was on for nine years, but it was on in a small town in North Carolina. So when people are like, hey, do you know, I'm like, y'all, I don't really know anybody. Like, I have my friends that I meet in like our ways where the artists that are the activists come together. And I'm like, I'll connect you to anybody I know, but I probably don't

know the person you're trying to talk to. Damn, yes. It's like one of those things. So I love, you know, that's changed a little bit over the, you know, more recent years. But, like, I love that you had the wherewithal, even as a student, to say, oh, I'm going to make sure I do this well. I'm going to make sure the rhythm I established for my life here continues. You know, I know how hard it is for women in our industry. And you are a brilliant, I mean, like, I just, I think you are a genius.

But, like, let's be real, this is also America. And you are a black, queer woman. Yeah. Do you think you've just had such a strong vision and voice that there was no way anything was going to get in your way? Or were you able to see the obstacles that so many women and so many women of color and so many queer folks in our industry face and just say like, that's not going to catch me. That's not going to slow me down. Because you've done it. And I just like, knowing all the things that get added onto the inhibitors list in an industry like ours for you, I'm like,

how'd you do it? Tell all the queer babies how to do it. Well, look, it's all about perception because it's about if you see being black and being women and being queer as something that'll hold you back, it will. And so for me, they, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the three things, the way in which I was born. It's almost like taking credit for being right-handed. But it's, they really propelled me forward. Because if I'm not all these things, I don't think Aziz casts me to play this. He doesn't switch it up and go, actually, you're more interesting.

Right. Yeah, does he see you? Does Spielberg see you? They're like, you're interesting. Yeah. you know and and I haven't really seen you before and clearly I women like myself have existed you know uh thuds masks aggressive whatever you want to call us we we exist have always have and um but I came along at a time where people were willing to say okay we'll give you

you know, the space and people that did do that were Alan Yang, Aziz, in terms of putting me in front of the camera. Yeah. Michael Scher as well. And then obviously Steven Spielberg and Allison and also credited Allison Jones, who is really should take most of the credit for my acting career because she saw the pilot presentation for 20s, which I was not in, but thought was interesting and asked me to come to her office. and I did. And I sat across from her and we had a wonderful conversation about just TV and the

history of it. And she just asked me if I had any interest in being on camera. And I said, I haven't. And she said, okay, well, let me just bring you in for some stuff here and there. And she did. Wow. How that career really began. And so, and that was really her kind of having, you know, this is a white woman who has been doing this for eons. I mean, she cast freaks and geeks. She cast She casts deep. She casts fresh principal in LA. Like she's someone who can look at somebody and go,

I think you should be on television. And she did that. And so I think, but that happened by me doing my writing thing, by me saying people don't really get what 20s is. So Justin Simeon, who was just over here yesterday, who created Dear White People, he was like, yo, I did a pilot,

I did a fake trailer for Dear White People. And he was like, let's do a pilot presentation for 20s so people can see what you're doing, and put it on YouTube. Yes. We put it on YouTube and Allison Jones saw it, you know? And she was like, who did this? Who made this?

And I went in and sat with her and she started bringing me in for stuff. And she was the, when Aziz was like, who should I meet? Who should be in this show? She's like, you should meet me in a way. Damn. That's so cool. That's the thing. It's like me being my authentic self is why.

And that's why I think that in the Emmy speech at resident, it's the things that make you different. And so I think we've been taught as society is the things that make us different because sometimes when you're oppressed, oppression becomes a part of your identity. And that's how people want it because as long as I'm like, well, no, I'm black, I'm gay,

I'm a woman, things are going to be bad, things are going to be rough. It's like I'm not an idiot. I know where I live and I know the country I'm in. But I also know that it is these things about me that make me unlike anyone else. And it gives me a different perspective. I think it's amazing when you choose to carry your magic as magic instead of as something that might need protecting.

Like, you're talking about the energy of your identity. And like, I think it's all over not only your career, but you as a person. Like there's a reason when we all walk in a room, people are like, hey, I love watching people see you. I'm just like, yeah, she's so fucking cool. And like, I love it. I love it because you're right. People will tell us all the things we're not supposed to be or the ways we're supposed to make ourselves smaller.

And it's like, no, no. I mean, well, and also that's on purpose. Yeah. You know. Oh, you mean people might be intimidated by your magic? You don't say. Well, it's like, I think society tells you to try to fit in. all the things that you need to feel better about you so.

Because, you know, we also live in a capitalist society. So if you think you need something to be happy, that you'll constantly be on a hamster wheel. And so I think, yeah, like for me, I'm just like, no, I'm really pleased with, you know, who I'm becoming and who I am. And I see so many, particularly, you know, women in particularly are told,

this is how you should be and this is what is how I'm supposed to go. And this is by this age. if you don't did that. And so you start to believe, you know, what people are saying. And when you really kind of step back and go like, well, says who? If you say says who a few times a day, you'll start to kind of realize like, I don't know if I need to do what society tells me I'm supposed to do. Because oftentimes those that make the most change and live the most bountiful lives

are those that kind of go against what society told them they are supposed to do. I like that. Says who? it's a nice little mantra put two words says who what was it like stepping into Master of Nunn I mean obviously you won an Emmy

like it was the whole thing was so incredible to watch were you did you feel like I'm just going to take this leap as an actor and see what happens were you going to folks like were you sitting there being like

everybody tell me like what do I need to know or did you feel ready from all the writing. I honestly didn't know what I was jumping into. I mean, Aziz didn't even have a name for the thing. Like, it was like untouched for the first season. Like, we would sit at that dinner and go like, so what should be? And I would always tell him like, just call the Aziz's story show.

And he was just like, no, because that's not really it. And I'm actually really, you know, I think he was smart to not do that. I think Master's done actually is right. But I just had always been a. fan of his, of his stand-up, I love Parks and Rec, still to this day, obsessed. I was always more of a parks or a red girl than an often girl. Me too. Yeah, it's weird. It's like, there are two people. It's like, either you, and like, parks, to say, like, if you're a Parks and Rec person, is there so much about your personality. It's like, it means you're an eternal optimist.

Yes. You're probably a little off the beaten path. You're a little nuts in a good way. Yeah, yeah. I think if you like office, you're cynical, but yet kind, you know, and I think if you're Parks and Rec person. Like, you just, you march to be your own drum, man. And, um, and I love that show. And I loved, you know, what Amy did for, you know, Aziz with that, you know, and like putting him in that space and having him be what he needed to be on that show. And then, you know, it's like, you know, the kids grow up and you kind of go, all right, I'm going to do my own thing. And obviously, him and Alan Yang, who was writing on Parks and Rec obviously at the time when obviously Michael Schro. So I just love that you had people from Parks and Rec that trifecta and went over here. Okay, we're going

to do this. We're going to see what this feels like. And so for me, I was just excited that they were like kind of, it was almost like they were making their own band. Like they were a part of a popular band that people knew and recognized the music. And they were like, all right, we're going to go over here. And people are like, all right, what's this about to be? And it's like they made three amazing albums, which I could consider the three seasons, the first season, which was just like, what is this? The second season, obviously, I was really grateful. I got to have my own sort of, you know, my own platform, really. And then season three, which, Aziz and I just kind of really went ball to the wall.

Like he just started to, he directed everything you see. And I was like number one in a call sheet, which was a lesson that I was like, okay, I don't know if I necessarily want to do this. Yes. It's a lesson. Yeah, me and me. And, but it was just, it was such a, it was like him a lot. You know, it was a learning space.

It was a free space. And for us to win, Emmy Book outstanding writing in the comedy series two years in a row, you know, I think that's about the time the third season came around, folks were sick of us. Like, they were like, okay, we get it. But there are people coming to me all the time and talk to me about that third season and say, like, I was changed by it

or it meant so much to be in terms of what you guys were dealing with. So I'm really, and also it's this thing that kind of just exists, like we could always come back, you know, 10 years from now, disease feels like it. And if we have something to say. But we really grew up doing that show a lot.

You know, behind the scenes and in front of the, you know, on camera as well but it's just a special show that just exists and lives in this moment in time and I'm really honored that I got to be not just a part of it but to really help build it to help grow this show

to shape it so much yeah to people because it definitely means a lot to me and the fact that people go back and revisit it is like that's God's on gift yeah that's that's the kind of thing that I hope to be lucky enough

to make in this sort of like phase two of career like I'm so grateful for the jobs I've gotten to do don't get me wrong like you know working in this industry is a dream but like there is a little bit of a different thing when you do a long running thing on a network and watching y'all do that was was really special it's it's it's always cool to me as an artist when I get to watch something that reminds me of why I love my job oh yeah me too yeah I think I'm I think Baby Rainier was that for a lot of people, too. I kind of saw that and thought, oh, wow, TV can be this again.

Yes. It's still in there. Still there. We're still here. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. When you talk about being, you know, you're coming into season seven on the shy, like, what is it like now to be that long into a project that you've created? Because it is, as you say, it's a gift and it's a big world to have to run.

So how do you, like on the one hand, you want to keep these, you know, storylines engaging for your viewers and there's pressure to always maintain, you know, a level of excellence on your projects. And on the other hand, it's like seven years in, it's a big, I don't want to say a wait, that makes it sound negative, but like, it's big. It's just a big thing, you know, to have in the bag. Like, how do you keep it feeling fresh for yourself as a creative so that you can continue to bring that kind of new magic seven years in? No, I think it's a really good question. And I think what I recently started to think about it in this way is that every season is like an album. And so when you think about some of your favorite artists, you know, every album is different. And it speaks to where they are in their lives and what they're thinking about or what they're listening to.

And so that's the way it remains exciting for me is that when we go into the writer's room, it's like going into the studio and go, okay. we got a fresh pad you know they came before what now what are we at now what do we want to talk about now you know

what are some characters we get to play musical chairs a little bit with the characters and kind of figure out all right who do we want what do we want to get into

and that to me is the most exciting is the beginning of every you know writer's room season because it's sort of like all right it's a new beginning and and then it's about

you know finding these new moments And I also think of every episode as a track of an album. So it's like every track isn't necessarily supposed to be a billboard at 100. You know, some episodes are supposed to be sleepers, you know, besides, you know, one of those songs you can't get out of your head. And so that's really how I try to approach it. It is like music.

And the thing about it is what I think has kept people coming back with the shot is that no season is like the one before it. Yeah. Because we aren't the same. and the actors are in a different space and we want to come back and be fresh and that's the thing it's challenging yourself to not be the same

here's like you've got to be new and that means we as people have to evolve we have to grow and our lives do evolve and we had two women in our writer's room be pregnant last season they were both pregnant and so now they both babies now and so we go to the new season

it's just sort of like oh their lives are evolving and changing and they're bringing that into the writer's room. So we, anyone that kind of wants, like, can you make it like the first two seasons or I really like that season four or I really like season five? It's like that is gone. Yeah. About where we are now. And also it speaks to society because you do have friends in your life who are always evolving, always growing, always trying to find themselves. And then there's some friends that are like, I'm good, this is me, this is who I am, I'm not changing. You can take it or leave it.

And both ways of walking through the world are valid. But it's just a matter of who would you rather go on the journey of life with? Someone who is constantly searching for truth, but someone that thinks they've already found it. Yeah, I'm in group A. Yeah, same. I'm always searching. Yeah. And some people aren't.

And that's okay. Yeah. You know, but I think I can't be making a TV show and not be always. self-interrogating. Because if I start to think, I got it, I know what's up, I figured it out, the work will start to reflect that and not in a good way, I don't think. Well, and by the way, if you think you've already figured it out, then you're doing your series finale.

Then the show's over. Like, what more do you have to explore if you're not exploring? Always exploring. Always finding new things. I'm trying to, like, you know, just keep digging. Okay, so is this what led us to the podcast? No, the podcast really came about because I was like, we need another podcast in this world. Like, we need a coach.

So I said, what is my version of that? But Justin Riley, who's been a friend of mine forever, who actually had a podcast way, way back in the day before they were popular. He was telling me, he was like, Lena, you're such a good conversation. It's like, you should like get into this game and you should talk to people. But I was like, but who am I talking to and why and what's going on? And then that's where legacy talk was sort of born, where it was more about when I talked to black women in particular, whose legacies have impacted mine. And that's where we came to this list, where it is Gina Prince Bythwood, Charlie Ralph, Mara Brock Akeel, Jada Pinkett, Jennifer Lewis, and last but not least, it's going to be Debbie Allen. And so I had these just phenomenal conversations. And it's an RIP and Nikki Giovanni.

May she rests in peace. But there's this beautiful conversation if you haven't seen it. I implore you to see it, especially now a conversation between Nikki Giovanni and James Baldwin that was filmed in London. I think, oh, man, like in the 70s, because like Nikki Giovanni was really young, just like a young poet artist at the time. And then Baldwin is Baldwin. But he, at this point, she's written enough things where he knows who she is and respects

her. and it's just a stunning conversation. And I stumbled upon it when I was wrapping up, you know, production on Queen and Slim and just it just blown away by these two people talking about everything, about, about life, about, you know, the church and being black and men and women, and it is a conversation you can watch again and again and again. And it was a conversation also that was orchestrated by a phenomenal queer black man named Ellis Haslitt.

And you haven't seen this documentary. It's on HBO Max called Soul, Explanation Point, which was a series that he did in the 70s that was on public television. And it was just a beautiful show that highlighted black artists at the time and just revolutionary conversations. And so he was friends with Nikki Giovanni, and he asked her, who do you want to speak to? And she's like, I want to talk to James Ballone. And he was like, oh, I can make that happen.

He's living in London right now. Don't worry. Just me taking notes. Please do. And so he put this, so this amazing queer black man put this, this conversation together that would be filmed and recorded that I would later find, you know. Yes. I was like sitting in a hotel room in New Orleans and watched it and just was just really blessed by it.

And anyone that watched this conversation will be blessed by it. Because of such mutual respect, so much. nuance, so much understanding. There are light bulb moments on both sides that are happening. They're truly listening to each other and respecting each other. And so I always love that dialogue. And I wanted to have dialogue like that with people who were elders of mine. You know, I think I definitely relate to Nikki's body in that conversation.

Yeah. Talking to an elder, talking to somebody she respects and she, you know, wouldn't be where she is in that moment without the work that he'd already done. And so, and that's really what kind of spoke to me about it. I said, how can we record and document these conversations for people to have, for people to reference and for people to be blessed by? And so that's what we're willing to talk with Lena Wave was sort of born. I love that.

I love that. And I didn't know that. I don't know if I've ever told you the whole aha, the light bulb moment for me to do this show was sitting in a gathering of all the incredible women we know. know, I was in Gloria Steinem's living room, talking about how these intergenerational, diverse, brilliant groups of women were going to continue to push for progress. And I was like, the privilege of my life to be in this room, like if I could have told, you know, little 20-year-old me in Christopher Smith's class at the Annenberg School of Journalism, that I would be texting

with Gloria Steinem sitting in her living, like what? Yeah, I'm honored. I can meet her too. She's, it's like that thing of what we get to do as people with a platform that you can give these conversations away. It's like one of the only still free spaces of media for folks. Like, I think it's so beautiful.

And it kind of like weirdly makes me want to cry that you were like, oh, these are the conversations I want to record so other people can access them. because not everybody's going to get to sit with Debbie Allen or Shirley Ralph, but they can listen to you do it. And that, like, the legacy of that, the gift of that to the world, I don't take lightly. I think it's beautiful. I don't take it lightly either.

I appreciate that. And the fact that it's accessible, put it up on YouTube, watch or listen. And I take it very seriously. You know, I think I don't want to just. And even I think it's like our conversations, we, we'll sit out for a couple hours and we'll kind of cut them down to about 40, you know, minutes. Just to kind of get rid of all the space and the ums and things that you kind of don't need. And I think there's some people are so used to those three-hour, you know, type of situation, which is like, look, to each is all.

But to me, I want to get to the meet and I want to be specific. And I want to, I want to really get some clarity on things and ask very specific questions. So I know folks, the only ask, which is a beautiful gift, he was like, can they be longer? can they be longer? And I'm just like, no, like, we are going to give you a finite amount of information and we're going to not, we're not going to talk about every project they've ever done. We're going to talk about projects that meant something to me that I think, you know, we should discuss in this conversation.

They are curated conversations. They're not these long, like, four hour just sitting there. So where are you born? Like, tell me what your mother grew up. No, it's like with Shirley Rout, we start right at Dreamgirls. And I think it kind of almost worked because she was like, oh, you're not going to warm up. to this? I'm like, no. Like, what is the audition process for Dreamgirl? So, like, what was that like? You know, and she's like, oh, like, crazy. Like, I thought I was good. I was good. I was

like, okay, you know, and because I want to start really where the flagship thing is for them, you know, and then go from there, and you talk about where, what the most famous things that they know for now. I love that. He had to go from Dreamgirls to Avenue, it was pretty cool. I mean incredible I finally I got to meet her at Wicked oh and was like she's so regal oh my god she's unbelievable she gave me a box of she gave charlie harbison and I and he had dressed her but never met her they had done everything virtually and so with the three of it we were just and they were hugging and it was so sweet and then I don't know where they came from but she magically had snacks and there were no snacks anyway. and she gave us a box of peanut M&Ms. And if you think I did not have that box on my kitchen counter for like three weeks, I was like, nobody touched that.

That was from Ms. Cheryl. Keepsake. Nobody touch it. It was so fun. Who do you go to? Because, you know, you are a mentor, you are a curious person, you are a person who can, you know,

sit with your elders to ask all these questions to, who do you go to when you need advice? Like, who's the person you? you call for feedback? Man, that's like pretty, you know, easy. Like Debbie Allen for sure. Jada Pinkett. Rashida Jones about anything, life, career.

You can ask Rashida Jones about anything under the sun and she'll have a really good answer. Yeah, like those are definitely the, you know, Gina Prince, Byth. It's so funny, the people I sat down across from, man. It's like these amazing women who, always have wise things to offer. Yeah, for sure.

I was talking about last night. Just like talking trash. I was like, you know what I mean? And that's the thing, too. I think sometimes people think about mentor is so very much like, you know, you think it's like the big chair and like sit at my feet. But it's also good sometimes just to kind of kiki with your mentors and laugh out and see them as human beings as well.

I think that's so nice when you get to have the, that kind of like meatiness about work, but when it's not just about work, when you get to like be with your people, it's really refreshing. I did the most embarrassing thing at the last Graze table read because like Debbie Allen is like, she's Debbie Allen. She is an icon. I met her like once at an award show, I don't know, five years before the pandemic. So I walked up to her and I was like, I am just so thrilled to be here. I said, Debbie, it's so nice to meet you. I'm Sophia Bush. And she looked at me like my grandmother used to and goes no she like it was so sweet she just she looked at me like I was nuts yeah that sounds like I was like but but you're Debbie Allen so on the off

chance there's 86 people here I'm going to introduce myself to you because you are Debbie Allen it's always those legends that don't think anything of it. It's just like a Debbie kid get out of here of herself like an icon. That's what gets me every time, because I'm obviously obsessed. Well, yeah. She doesn't do it. She just doesn't, yeah, she doesn't, she doesn't. Can't be bothered. No, no, not at all. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. You wanted to talk about the book. Oh, right handsberry, what I must tell the world, how Lorraine Hansberry found her voice. Words by Jay Leslie, pictures about love is wise. Very, very, very, very, very, grateful that we have this book coming out for kids of all ages. We're going to be talking about

this book a lot more. I'm pulling up to New York this month. I'm going to talk to Sherry Shepard about it. Yeah. It's a cool, cool, cool Christmas gift put under the tree. It's so cool. And kids alike. A rain Hanbury, amazing woman out of south side of Chicago. Yeah. What inspired you to get involved with the children's book? Well, we were doing some work with Zando. We have home and grad books. And we actually didn't think we were. going to do a children's book. We were like, that wasn't on the bingo card. But it just sort of came about.

And we, and obviously, I'm a big note, Lorraine Hansberry, just, you know, obsessed, always being from Chicago, hearing about her. Obviously, raising the son was her similar work, died at 34. And she just changed the world through her voice, through words on page. And she was the youngest black playwright, not even black. youngest playwright ever to have a show on Broadway to have a play on Broadway and the first black person to have a play on Broadway. And then Jordan Cooper became the youngest playwright to ever have a show on Broadway with Ain't No Mo. He vested her about a few years. But I also think it's very beautiful in that him being a queer black playwright as well. It's just, it's a beautiful

thing. It's a beautiful history. I wanted to play a small part in over Ain't No Mo. But Rayne Hansberry is someone who was just a seed that became a true. tree, that has so many branches, that the fruit that have come off that tree, I think I get to be one of those pieces of fruit. That's how powerful her legacy is and will continue to be. And so it's important for me that people know who she was and who she still is. You know, even though someone is an earthside anymore, it doesn't mean that their presence is no longer felt. So I hope you have a good chance to get this book and read about her and learn about her and continue to tell the world about who she was and how she changed it.

Yes. Well, it's interesting, right? She's not Earthside. You can't sit down with her on legacy talks, but in a way, her legacy is still talking. Still going to teach the babies. Still teaching. Yes.

So that's part of my legacy is to carry hers forward, truly. I love it. I mean, I could sit and Kiki with you for the next three hours, but you have things. I know. We could have one of those, those pockets, like, three hours. We should, but not on the record. Maybe we just have it in life.

But this is my favorite question to ask everybody who comes on the show, but the new year energy makes it maybe feel more sparkly. As you look out at what's to come for you this year, whether it's something professional or personal, or maybe it's a hybrid of both, what feels like your work in progress? myself as a human and me stepping into the theater space in this way i've obviously i've produced a play ain't no more written by jordan cooper uh but this i've you know trying my hand at writing my first play

and i want to be in it and it is it's just it's so nerve-wrecking exciting and fear-inducing in the best way. And it's also just humbling. It's humbling, you know. And so that's just the, that's the, that's the, that's the energy I want to be in. I think all 2025, you know, especially as we enter into this new, this new era, you know, this new presidency. It's really about what are you, what do you have control over and what does you accept? Well, you know, let's practice radical acceptance and also be radical in the art that we're doing.

Yeah. Well, the storytelling is going to matter more than ever again. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I always love somebody as James Baldwin. Are you a revolutionary writer?

He said, I'm a writer in revolutionary times. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, the artist's job is to be in the world and tell the truth about it, right? Yeah, reflect the time. And also tell their truth. Everybody has their own version of the truth. Mm-hmm. I always say everybody thinks they're right.

Yeah. I really like a sort of descriptor that my therapist gave me. He was like, there's going to be your truth and this person's truth. And then there's going to be the truth, somewhere in between the two. And sometimes it'll be closer to your edge of the ruler, and sometimes it'll be closer to the other persons. And I think that's an important thing to remember. And when you talk about how we do what we do and the requirement to be humbled over and over again by it,

like you've got to make space for a sliding scale of reality and then go and tell yours. I think that's really, it's powerful. Absolutely. It's a responsibility. And I think that's why we can't be lazy in the work and we can't do it with glory. Yeah. I love it. I just adore you.

Thank you for coming on the show. I love the laundry list of all you do and all the goodness you put in the world. You are just a gem. Thank you. Thank you for being so amazing. and just being a true ally and a beacon of hope, you know, it means a lot. Thank you. I will receive that kindness.

Thank you so much. For sure. Let's