Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Lili Reinhart

Episode Date: January 16, 2025

Actress Lili Reinhart lit up the small screen as Betty Cooper on the CW hit series Riverdale, but her off-screen work is just as bright. In addition to her acting career, she's a producer, author, advocate, and entrepreneur. The busy multi-hyphenate joins Sophia to chat about launching her own production company, the pros and cons of social media, dealing with anxiety and depression, and how her struggles with acne led to her new skincare brand, Personal Day.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey friends, it is a weird time to be making content, certainly from here in Los Angeles, California. This wonderful episode with Lily, we actually recorded a few weeks before the fires, and now it's up, and we won't be discussing it, obviously, on this episode, since it hadn't happened yet. But I just wanted to make sure that everyone knows there are so many incredible, resources and groups that you can support. I've actually got a really wonderful mutual aid list in a highlight on my Instagram stories, and we will put it in the show notes as well. If you have a heart for the people and places that make L.A. so wonderful and special,

please consider visiting that and supporting our city. Love you all. I hope you're staying safe. Welcome to work in progress. Hi, whipsmarties. Today we are joined by someone I've been a fan of for such a long time. I am so impressed and I so admire the way that she carries herself, the things she's willing to talk about, the ways she's willing to send her really human experiences in a world that doesn't always want to do that. And she happens to be, brilliant, stunning, an entrepreneur, a producer, an incredible actor, and an author. Today's guest is none other than Lily Reinhart. You likely met Lily, portraying Betty Cooper on the CW drama series Riverdale. Can't wait to talk to her about our high school experiences on the C Deb. She has worked on incredible films from hustlers to Chemical Hearts, and she recently launched her own production company. On top of all of this incredible success, Lily released a book

of poetry in 2020 titled Swimming Lessons. And her book explores themes like young love, anxiety, depression, fame, heartbreak. These are the kinds of things she's really heartforward about discussing with her audience. She really welcomes folks in to talk about everything from insecurity to body dysmorphia to depression. And I really think she is doing such an incredible service to the world with the conversations that she chooses to have and the tenderness with which she chooses to have them. And I'm really excited for all of you to hear today's conversation because that tenderness carries through this episode as well. Enjoy. Well, first of all, it was so much fun to get to see you last week in the dance of this.

I just loved that. Me too. Yeah, I've admired your work and the way that you use your platform and the things that you choose to talk about for such a long time. So I'm thrilled you're here today. Yeah, yeah, I was really happy. Days of events, I kind of am always going, why did I say yes to this? all day long because I just I just have the social anxiety

so I have to really push myself to leave my house and go to those things but I'm always I'm always usually happy that I do and that I'm there so I always walk away I'm like okay it was like the fear of going was much worse than the actual thing yeah the anticipatory anxiety

is often worse for me than the experiential anxiety but it doesn't mean I don't have it. I can try to talk myself out of it the whole time, but it doesn't leave my body until I get to the thing. And I run into people that I've been excited to me or I see friends. And then I'm like, what was I so freaked out about? Yeah. I mean, there is like, because it's not just go to a party, it's like you're hiring people and you're having to look good and like get the freaking glam photo and make sure you are uh in a social mood or whatever and i don't know it's just it's not like going to a regular party there's just like it feels like work to me yeah so it's like

ultimately i'm going to work in a way totally it is absolutely work and i also giggled because i'd had to go to something before and uh the the the thing i went to earlier to see some friends As I was leaving, I got caught in like one of those moments of just L.A. rain. So by the time I got back across town to see all of you guys, I'd gotten wet. I was in velvet. I had like a cool hair tuck moment happening. And then by the time I got to our event, I looked at the photos. And I was like, cool. I just looked like I gently electrocuted myself. No, you look sweet.

And it was like this moment where I was like, you kind of just got to let it go. Like, I don't know. No one would have ever known. Well, you're very sweet. But it was like this very funny moment where I was like, am I going to let the fact that like I'm a frizzball now make me go home? Or am I just going to go see my pals? And I was very glad that I came to see everyone.

You looked so lovely and there was no one would have ever. See, no one ever would know any of this stuff. No one knows the stuff. That's the thing. Right? I had to have be like safety pinned like the, I did a beauty con in November. and the Taylor accidentally took the buttons off my sleeves. So we had to, like, safety pin them.

And who gives a shit? That's fine, you know? It's like a little bit like, oh, this sucks. And you're rushing out the door while it's happening and, like, safety pinning things. But I've had some red carpet moments like that a few times. And that always is, it doesn't help the anxiety. My best friend in college split her pants at a party. We were really, we were having a great night.

It turned into like a dance-off moment. Everything was great. And then she forgot how inflexible said pair of pants was and split them. And I happened to have safety pins in my bag because I was coming to this thing from class. And ever since I've always made sure to carry a couple of safety pins in a clutch when I go out to something just in case it happens to someone else. Yeah. So I feel you on the safety pinage there. Yeah.

I've definitely had an entire dress. fully break like and it's like what I mean some of these things I just I'm like I got to give this over to God here like there's there's really nothing I can do in this moment at the end of the day it's like a red carpet that no one but me will like ever really remember totally um so yeah stuff like that where I'm like actually no one but me is actually fully paying attention to like me in this moment, if that makes sense. Maybe that's a stupid thing to say when you have, like, fans who actually are very much paying attention. But I guess I'm like, I'm going to hold on to the things that go wrong and no one else is going to really notice them. Exactly. And if I look

back, if I look bad on the carpet, the only person that that's hurting is me ultimately. Yeah. No one's really going to care. Yeah. But it doesn't lessen the experience. But I'm so, I love that we get to talk about these things. things, honestly, because I feel like when I started working in TV, nobody wanted to talk about anxiety. Everyone was like, you're so privileged. How dare you talk about stress or whatever? And it's like, I actually think it's quite refreshing to know that everyone is human. I'm really curious for you. I normally dive in with this question, but we started in the present. I want to know a little bit about your childhood. Because I think it's really interesting to sit down with people who our audiences

know, generally from a body of work. And I want to know if your version of yourself today got to sit down with your eight or nine or ten-year-old self, would you see the through line from what she was really interested to what you do now? Did you always want to be a performer? Or did this sort of all come out of the ether? No, it was really, I think, in my bones. And I always think it was a little bit written in the stars because I never had really a backup plan and I never wanted one.

And that's a bit hard to tell your family who's never, no one in my family was in this field, no one was in arts. And to pursue it from baby, Village, Ohio was just sort of a far-off dream seemingly. So it was a big, big dream for kind of a small town and to have no connections. It was sort of like, okay, sure, dream big. And I was never told not to, but I absolutely came into the world liking to entertain people and be funny and goofy around my family. And weirdly, though, was shy and had social and had social and had social

anxiety, like, to the point where when I was very young, didn't want to go to birthday parties. I didn't want to be, I was nervous to be around, I guess, the other kids, but more so I think it was like nervousness to be away from my mother. I was very attached to her, but within my family and friends, I was always wanting to perform and be silly. And I grew up making videos on a camera for myself that I would show my family. forcing them to watch, you know, these probably not very entertaining videos, but discovering Windows Movie Maker when I was 13 or something and editing together my own little movies and

adding music to them and making my sister do it with me. And every time my friends came over, we would be like, let's make a, it was like, let's make a video. And I think that seems to be quite common with a lot of, you know, actors I find did that as a kid. So, So that seems to be kind of a common thing. But there was definitely always that desire to perform and be creative. And yeah, I mean, if I sat down with my little 10-year-old self, it would be, it would be like, yeah, I'm still you. I'm still this kind of shy. And it's interesting as I've grown up and I don't love this.

but like I've almost turned into instead of like shy I fear that sometimes it can come off as more of like a Larry David version of myself where it's a little bit like maybe I come off as a little cold because of how introverted I am whereas I feel when I was younger and I was introverted it was like oh she's shy like it's very easy to point to a kid who's introverted and say she's shy and when you're older especially even in high school, maybe I was projecting, but I think I maybe was seen as kind of a bitch because I was shy and because I was an actor, trying to be an actor in this small town. So it kind of gave the illusion of, oh, who does this girl think she is? But I really, like, I would try to put myself out there, but ultimately I was, I felt shy. But when people gave me a chance, I would be excited. and try to be warm, but ultimately, I think as I've gotten older, I'm like, I've just soured with age. But I've just kind of, I guess, can come off a little bit like a little

Larry David and me. I'm like a 28-year-old Larry David woman. That's great. There's things to work on, for sure. I mean, it's a little to hear I was given that comparison the other day. And I was a bit like, oh, is this, am I, like, I love him and I love Kirby enthusiasm, but I'm like to be compared as a human being to like a grouchy old man. I don't know. But ultimately, we'll grow from it and be like, okay, so we've maybe got to like work on the warming up around people. Sure. Seeming more warm perhaps. I also think there's a really odd. thing to

a lot of fame so young for sure you know I would imagine for you you know you got cast on Riverdale at 19 like

I was I think I'd been 21 for I don't know 15 days or something when I got to Wilmington to do One Tree Hill like your prefrontal Cortex isn't done developing until you're 26.

Like, it's a lot. You know, I remember feeling like I could really prove that I was an adult. And looking back on it, especially all of us, girls going back to start rewatching the show together, we're so shocked. We're like, we were children. We were babies. Who let us out of the house? Who let us do this?

Who put us on a set? Who told us to pretend we knew what we were doing so we wouldn't embarrass ourselves? We were children. We should have just been like, we have no idea what we're doing. And I'm sure there was no essence of media training back then. Oh, no. I thought if someone asked you a question, you had to answer it. You were thrown to the wolves.

And we all are because no one ever gives you any sort of rulebook. And I think maybe they should. It would have been helpful to have like some basic outlines. But I guess you kind of, you're almost like, let me look to my elders and the, the people playing our parents on the show were happy to give advice and stuff like that, but you really are like trial by fire.

Yep. Don't mess up. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. What was that like for you? Like, when you think about that season of life, do you immediately think about what the audition process was like? Do you think about the kind of, whoa, what's happening moment when the show is this huge hit and suddenly you have all this on your shoulders? What kind of comes up there? It's like a big deep breath to think about

in a way. Wow. Because it's, it was seven years and it was from 19 to 26. And, and I'm 28 now and having time away from it and I always knew doing it is so hard and being in it is really challenging to fully move and vacate your life that I'm trying to start for myself in LA and I remember not even knowing that the show filmed in Vancouver until I was on the phone with my lawyer and he's saying it was shoots in Vancouver and I didn't was like where is that so It was a very, I don't think I'd ever even been to Canada. So it was, it was just this pick yourself up out of this chapter of your life and plop you down here and figure it out. And it is kind of figure it out. And I think people expect, people are always shocked. They're like, where did you say? Like, where were they putting you up? And it's like, no, you relocate your life. Yeah, they don't put you up. They don't put you up. They don't. No, they don't pay for anything. They don't pay for anything.

They give you a relocation fee and that lasts, yeah, that's supposed to last you a day. Yeah. That gets you your first plane ticket and maybe if you're lucky, you get to ship your car. I shipped my car to Washington and then I drove it over the border. Smart. But at the time I remember having to tell my publicist, I was like, I actually can't afford you at all. Can we, can you maybe just, can I pay you once I get paid? And it's sort of like this, it wasn't awkward for me to talk about money, but I didn't, you know, I was like, I've never made money like this before.

And I don't have, I don't know, I had maybe, I don't know how much money I had in my bank account. Not a lot, but I, because I had been acting since I was 12, but like not making money. So it was, I don't have the means to be shelling out now for. thousands of dollars for a publicist and it's it's um no one really tells you how to deal with that as well when you're making money so young and given that responsibility um that was also trippy weird it's a weird thing to move very quickly from uh struggling financially to being the most financially secure person around you Yeah.

It's a bit of a shift, I think, mentally for a young person in their 20s. And luckily, I'm very responsible with money, but it is a weird shift. But I think it was more so for me kind of having to move my whole life to a different country. And yes, it was Canada. So we're not moving somewhere crazy far away. It's a three-hour flight to L.A. But ultimately finding a new apartment. settling in the life there and then that extends to seven years. And it is, I look back

really fondly working with wonderful people that I love really dearly and will always hold such a, I mean, you know, like you just hold a special place in your heart for these people that you are on this journey with that so few people understand what it's like to just be a part of a television and show. And so I understand the privilege in that. I'm like, wow, I'm so lucky I have that experience. Because I think it's rare and it's wonderful to do a show for seven years. It's like a blessing. And I look at it as such, absolutely. And although it was hard and had its challenges, I really do see it as it's the reason why I'm sitting in my house. And it's why I'm, you know, was able to then have a production company and do everything else that I did. It was a catalyst

for my whole career. And so, yeah, it absolutely changed my life and was the biggest pivotal moment in my career thus far. Totally. Yeah. And it, I think it can be all of those things. You know, it can be something you're so grateful for. It can be something that was incredibly trying. I think, you know, like my heart just swells hearing you talk because I know what it is to love a group of people and also to be completely isolated and in some sense is trapped with a group of people. Yeah. Because you do. It's sort of like my girlfriend and I were talking about this the other day. She was in L.A. visiting and we hadn't seen each other in a while. I just realize I'm saying this. I mean, one of my girlfriends from my show, not like my girlfriend, like my romantic

part of that. Must clarify for the audience. They're going to be like, who is she talking about? Yeah, what's girlfriend? Yes, platonic girlfriend. And, and, you know, she was out from the East Coast and we were just talking about some things. And I said, I said, I have this really crazy kind of visual. It's like when you see those videos of bald eagles plucking salmon up out of the river and it's so majestic. But it's like, it's like, eagles pluck you out of your life and then they just drop you in a nest and you're like where am i where is water what is this and you know everyone's like aren't you so excited and you're like yes but also i think i'm terrified yeah yeah and it's it's so surreal so i really and then add having a twitter add having a twitter into that equation

absolutely not and it's or any form of social media and it's horrible it's way way scarier um just because no one there's just no one to tell you that you're about to be hated on so hard just for existing and what the

fuck do you do with that you know it's it's it's a really weird thing because we didn't have that when our show first started yeah but what existed in the vacuum were the tabloids and they're still around

but they can't completely create a narrative of who you are because you get to be who you are in whatever way you choose to on social. One of the really interesting things for us was like, oh, we're all just going to be cast as these archetypes, and then that's who you're going to want us to be. By the way, forever. Not even when it doesn't really even get to change

when we can have our own social media because you made so much money clickbaiting us, as these people for 10 years before it existed, that you're desperate for more of it. And that's an interesting thing too, because, like, Hillary always used to say that. She's like, dude, the behind-the-scenes drama on our show was so extra.

Like, literally, I don't know how true this is for yours, but, like, everyone on our show dated, everyone on our show. And she's like, thanks for taking the tabloid bullets for the rest of us, babe. And I'm like, yeah, thanks, you thank you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yes. because it's like we're kids and what are you going to do? It's like, it's literally they put you back in high school. Yeah. I would watch some of the things I would just see, because we're all

online, about you guys and your world. And I was like, God, I love so much of what you're getting to do and the ways you're at least appeared, you know, these incredibly strong female friendships. and I would kind of see the desire for people to clickbait your lives and I don't know if you want to talk about it or not and you can absolutely say now and then we'll just cut it but it's like when I when I saw just as the internet surfaces things on your explorer page

like you and Cole falling in love as like young kids on a show I was like oh my God I hope someone protects these babies because I've been through it and I don't know it's in one way I'm so excited you guys got to be yourselves in your own space and there wasn't a vacuum that people wanted to fill for you. But also, the fact that you can have your own identity online then opens you up to being one singular human, receiving feedback from tens of millions of people a day. And it's not

normal and it's not sustainable. And I know it's hard for me. And like, you know, I don't know, what am I, 15 years older than you or something? Like, I can't imagine how hard it is for. you how hard it was. So I don't know. How did you make sense of it? Well, I also can't imagine living in a world where you are not in charge of your own public narrative at all. Like that, I mean, I can't. We both can. There's, yeah, it wasn't great. I can't imagine. And to feel even that I have a platform of my own that's even now I'm sort of sometimes, you know, it still is. I think about social media a lot. Especially lately. And I think it's really bad. I think at the end of the day, I wish I could have

been someone who just never had to have it because I think ultimately it's caused a lot of stress and anxiety for me. On the flip side, when you're starting out in your career, this is how you build your career these days. People need to see who you want. are international fans need to be able to connect and follow you. But yeah, I mean, suddenly you're subjected to, not that you're not going to be anyways, because regardless of whether you have an account or not, people will comment on you forever. That's the same. So it's like either you have a social media or you don't, people are going to still talk about you.

But to be with my own eyes viewing, like as almost an audience member, what people have have to say about you or your life or your relationship or what you're wearing on a carpet. It's just it really does put this idea that whoever you're seeing on the other end of social media is just this figure that's moving around and you're seeing, oh, they're there now. Oh, they're in New York now. Oh, they're in L.A. and they're doing this thing and they look beautiful. and now maybe they don't look so good and now all these other things. And it really is, and I was thinking about this the other night,

like, no wonder we as a society, I feel, are dealing with such unhappiness right now. And the levels of anxiety in young people and depression and suicide rates are just out of control. And it's because we sit on our little black boxes that, being an iPhone and look at this narrative that everyone is choosing to show the world. It's what narrative are you showing? You're obviously not going to show the bad parts.

Yeah. And this is not revelatory. I'm not saying anything revelatory by any means, but it's, I think it's a good reminder because I think when I set on my Instagram, I feel Instagram, I'm becoming very distant from Instagram because I feel that that is the most fake form of social media currently. TikTok for me, I feel, is more authentic. You see people telling real stories. It doesn't feel like they're trying to present a front.

I feel they're genuinely TikTok people that I see or follow are presenting. This is what's going on in my life. This is what sucks. And then you see camaraderie, usually in the comments of people sharing stories. and being there for each other and just being, there's this openness about it. Whereas you go on this glossy Instagram and everyone, including myself, is curating this image and presenting the prettiest glam photos and this is me with all my friends or you're just presenting the best, you know?

Well, and it's interesting because, yes, absolutely, you're right. it's so weird to my friend kathleen said something the other day that i thought was really wise she was like here's my catch up you know photo carousel on instagram she goes to be clear this is the highlight reel but the low lights don't go on instagram they go to the group chat yeah and i was like yeah because why would you want everybody's opinions on what you're struggling with they're already so horrible to you on what's going well you know so it's very tricky this It's a constant sort of question I have of what do I want to open up and what do I not? You know, there's so many things I don't share.

And in a way, I think privacy is so important, but also when you don't share, there's that vacuum again. So it's like, I don't know what it is. And I think that's why, to go back to what I was saying when we first got into the Zoom room together, I really appreciate what you choose to share. with people and how intentional it seems you want to be about it. Because in a lot of ways, that's something I've been trying to do for as long as I've been on the internet too. And I appreciate that, yes, you'll go to this, you know, beautiful event, but be like, I was also actually really anxious. And last week I was talking about what it's like to deal with cystic acne or depression or like we aren't paper dolls where everything is perfect. We're actually these three-dimensional

humans and shit's complicated always for everyone and i like that you're willing to discuss it particularly as a woman in your peer group particularly as a person who did launch into success on a hit show during social media not pre and then having to figure out how to navigate it yeah i'm curious how you felt was it sort of obvious like of course i'm going to talk about the real stuff or or were you you ever nervous to say, I actually am a person who suffers from depression and anxiety. Was that unnerving or did it feel important? Or maybe it was a little bit of both? I, well, thank you for everything you said. But I don't actually ever really remember stopping and thinking, this is what I'm going to stand for. And you're almost, you start kind of having weirdly those conversations when,

to me, my experience was like when you meet with publicists, you start kind of talking about your image and you're sort of for the first time having to think about your image. Like I had never had to think about it before, obviously. It's so hard. And now it's like, who do you want, no one, I don't think anyone was directly asking me this, but the subtext was, who would you like to be perceived as, or what would you like to stand for and I not in a bad way people want to know they were they're like let me help you with this narrative because ultimately that's literally a PR person a publicist it's public relations

and it's how you're relating to the public and how they're going to perceive you and I think I didn't really have an answer to that and I was yeah also playing this very seemingly perfect I quite literally the girl next door. And playing this girl with energy, I say that because I'm chronically fatigued all the time. Yeah, yeah. Seven years on a series will do that to you. Well, yeah. But I think just to me, I've, since I was so young, have dealt with anxiety and depression. And then as I got older, getting diagnosed with ADD and then, PTSD and then OCD, it's like, I mean, the list goes on. And I don't, I think I don't want to be someone who talks about this chapter of my life once it's over. I don't think that really helps

people. And I think I'm in it now. I've talked about this stuff for a while now. So it's like, might as well keep helping if I can. And to be in the position that I'm in now where people may see, oh, look at this great success you've had. And I go, yes, but also I'm going to be real with you. And I'm not going to come back and talk about how hard this chapter was once it's over. Because first of all, what if it's never over and what if I continue to struggle in the ways that I struggle mentally? Okay. So I don't want to just put my authenticity or openness about my life and my experience is on hold until I feel better. I just don't think that's helping anyone.

And ultimately, if I'm going to, I don't want to say suffer, because that never feels like the right word, but struggle with challenges that millions of other people face, but I get the opportunity to do it in a more public sphere and maybe in a way that people really, people really have call into question, how do you feel that way? And that was really difficult for me when I first was stepping into the spotlight and having people basically tell me that I didn't have a right to feel. And now a word from our sponsors.

The idea that you are supposed to wait. until you feel better and then reflect on your experience, in a way, suggests that you need fixing and you don't need fixing. Or that you need to be quiet until you, your problems are solved, or in the public eye, that unless you have an answer to give people as to how you came out of it, best just keep your mouth shut. And I'm the type of person who thinks, well, to me it's helpful it's not fully helpful for me to see someone getting a golden globe and saying keep going don't give up I'm like well yeah because you're receiving an award now and it's like but how did you feel when you had to convince yourself to keep going and I think that's way more

helpful to someone like me who I find it inspiring when people open up about their struggles as they're happening and to be able to know, wow, this person's like really reflecting on their life and being open with the challenges that they're facing now, not what they were facing, which is important, but ultimately, I think it just helps you connect to this is a big word, but humanity better because you're saying, I'm in it now, I'm struggling now, even if I don't have an answer to give you guys on what to do or how I'm going to get out of this, just to let people know that I'm still struggling with XYZ, I think sometimes is enough to make people go, oh, okay, well, maybe that makes me feel.

feel better to know that someone who I think maybe has all these things and I would be happy if I had all these things. Because ultimately, and this is the whole point, is it's not what you have. The most successful person in the world, whoever you want to think of that, what success looks like, I'm pretty 100% positive that person struggles. Yeah. And whatever your idea of success is someone who has that struggles. So why do they struggle when they have the things? Because it's not about externally having things. It's, I could get, and I've realized this, I could get everything I'm looking for in my career, because career is a big, hard, stress thing for me. And I could say, okay, I could get the thing.

that I'm looking for. But if I got that thing tomorrow, I don't think I would be happy still. Like I don't think it would just solve every problem because ultimately the issue is internally what I'm going through. So giving someone an award, I'm just using awards as an example, because it's like the most clear view of,

here's success. I'm handing you success. And it's a trope. It's like a literal trophy of success. And I think a lot of people view that as success. So that's just where I'm coming from. But I think, yeah, I guess my whole point is I need a deal with what's going on on the inside that's making me unable to be happy with the success that I have now. because ultimately, even if I do keep climbing this ladder and reaching more success,

I won't be able, I'll still just want to keep climbing the ladder and wanting more. So when is it enough? And you have to be able to receive and receiving something is challenging. Yeah. Because I feel, again, it's like an external, usually an external accolade or an achievement or something externally validating, but ultimately your insides have to match up with that frequency of validation. And if inside you're still going, oh, I don't deserve this or, oh, I can do better or whatever,

whatever, it's not going to land. Yeah. And you're not going to be able to accept it. And I want to be in a position where any amount of success could come my way. and I can go, oh, I'm happy with this and I can receive this because I'm resolute in my inner work, I guess. I love that. I think it's really important, particularly, as you said, in a career and in an ecosystem, inclusive of the world of social media and the business of entertainment, it's so important to figure out how to like your life instead of be constantly

worried about what you're not doing. Yeah. And it's not easy, but to get to get to a point where you realize that that is part of the work, I think enables you to begin to widen your periphery and have a healthier

experience with your life in general. Well, so yeah, so like I'm saying this all now, having not reached that point. Yeah. Oh, I'm not either, by the way. So yeah, but I, but that's important to yeah, to, to emphasize because I, I don't, I don't have the answer and I haven't and I'm working on it. You could say I'm a work in progress. Hey. Hey, but ultimately I don't have the answer. And I think it's something that is a journey. They say life is a journey and apparently it is because you're just constantly evolving as you should be. And I don't think this feeling that I'm striving for,

this sort of, I guess you'd call it inner peace or the ability to receive or the ability to see my success as enough. I don't have that yet. And I am working on it and I'm sure I'll be working on it until the day I die. And but at least if I can keep chipping away at it and keep climbing that ladder of achieving that feeling, that's what's important. I don't have to, you could tell me you'll never fully get there. I'll go, okay, well, that sucks, but at least I'll know that forever I will be trying to feel that peace with my self. And then you know that you're spending a certain amount of time practicing gratitude, being introspective, being willing to self-interrogate.

not just Pac-Manning around the world. You're really, you're in the emotional kind of fiber of it. And that, I think, is a really noble pursuit, you know, for ourselves, but also for the kind of imprint you want to leave on the world around you. Well, to me, my thought is, isn't that the whole point. I think so. Because I think the whole point, and for me, is this is a soul's journey. It's not our body's journey. And to me, I'm like, I'm on this lifetime to level up. I want to become more conscious and raise my consciousness and be aware and be someone that people can look up to as a mentor and I want to be like the old wise grandmother. I want that. And I think so in order to achieve that, I've got to keep going and I've got to keep doing this work and I plan on it.

And to me, that's so much more, that's so much more of a successful life if I can focus on the internal things than anything external. That is also temporary and fleeting. And ultimately, whatever you believe, if you believe, and I still don't necessarily know what I believe, but if I think that my soul is going to continue on into another lifetime, that I'll have, like, as I say, leveled up in a way. And I can enter this next life with an even higher consciousness and then do even more. And again, I don't know. I'm still figuring out what I believe so far as reincarnation is a scary word. and I don't know if I like that word, but it's more so I think I like the idea that your soul is kind of just on this forever journey that even when you aren't here anymore, when your body

isn't here, your consciousness keeps going. Yeah. And I have a book for you. I'm going to send you a book as a follow up. What is it? What is it? I'll offline you about it. But yeah, I've got to send it to you.

I'm a big. I'm a big self-help book person, spirituality book person. What excites me about it is it's because when you said that, you know, the word feels scary, I'm like, I get it. It's why sometimes when the emotion feels big for me, I need to lean into the data or the science. Yeah. And I think, you know, just some of the laws of physics, you know, energy once created can never be destroyed. So I can lean on the scientific idea. and this book is a sort of merger of scientific research and spiritual theory, and it's very good. I'm going to send it to you, and I'm very excited about it.

I love spirituality books and all that stuff, so I'm very into it. I just love learning about us, and it might seem like a weird left turn, but I'm thinking about it because of the way that you want to pursue meaning, and you've talked about mental health, certainly, and you've also talked about the pressure that comes for women, but really all, I think all young people because of social media and then the expectations particularly that get put on us when we're on camera, you know, you've spoken about body dysmorphia, you've spoken about acne, and now you've founded a skincare line, and I actually feel, and I guess this is my question, it feels to me like you are figuring out.

away not just to like do a beauty product but but to really lean into um this space of personal identity and self acceptance that you struggle with it feels to me like you thought you've thought to yourself i really struggle with this and i know so many other young women struggle with this and other young people struggle with this and maybe if i solve a problem for myself i can help other people solve a problem for them? Pretty dead on, I think, with that analysis. Okay, great. Because I, when I'm struggling with something,

and I think this is where, to be honest, the openness about my mental health started was when I'm struggling with something, I need to share that because then that's how I connect with people and that's how I feel seen. Well, and you feel less alone. Yeah, of course. And I think ultimately when you're struggling, you just want to feel less alone. That's why we see a therapist to be like, tell me I'm not alone. And they're like, I see plenty. Yeah, it's like you're not alone ever. But I think I started sharing because I was struggling with acne and my body image and my depression and my anxiety. And then I just received a lot of encouragement.

when I did that, which is amazing and sort of encouraged me to just keep being this open book, at least when it comes to these facets of my life. So I was just pretty, I mean, again, I also had people telling me you don't have a right to feel anxiety, which is the craziest thing I've ever heard. That I don't have a, the body image thing was hard and telling, you know, people telling me, I don't have a right to feel a certain way about my body because I look a certain way. It's, I understand, but ultimately, this is where empathy steps in and you have no idea how someone looks at themselves. And I've seen, I'm sure you've seen some of the most beautiful people in the world have the biggest self-esteem issues.

Yes. And so ultimately, you just have no idea what you think is an. ideal beauty. Someone has that and they aren't happy with it. Yeah. And for acne in particular, I stepped into this space where you're not supposed to have that. And people around me didn't really have it. Of course, always like the guys always have perfect skin and it's annoying. But the women, you know, we're dealing with hormonal acne and way more makeup and all these things. And I have had acne just since I was 12 and 13 and it was like manageable acne. And then as I, but even when I would always get this reoccurring cyst in the middle of my forehead, which is like, this bitch is back

again. And I remember really hating that my school didn't let us wear hats because I was thought to myself, if only I could wear a beanie and pull this thing down over my forehead so no one would see this, or if we just turned these fluorescent awful lights off, maybe no one would notice this crater on my forehead. And so just, I'm very familiar with the feeling of acne in everyday life and what it can do to you mentally. But then I've also experienced the exacerbated version when I'm literally in front of a camera with said acne on my face. And people are literally staring at a screen watching me and the paranoia around that. And I think I felt really called to, because again, I'm like, everything kind of stems from me wanting to, it's not selfish

by any means, but I'm like, ultimately, I'm trying to help myself still as well by doing this, by helping other people so we can all collectively feel better because I want to feel better too. I still have acne, and I want these products that are not going to trigger my acne. So I know that people who have the same issues as I do want that as well, but also important to know that even people who don't have acne and don't deal with this, you want good quality skincare that's not irritating you, causing any damage that maybe you're not superficially seeing. You want things that aren't stuffed with bad filler ingredients. You just, that's also not going to be $100.

I just think I'm, you know, we get sent PR boxes of crap. And I, in the beginning of my career was like, oh, hell yeah, I'm being sent skincare line after skin care line. I'm going to put this on my face and I absolutely destroyed my skin. Yeah. Because I was just trying everything. And I think, ultimately, I wanted to create a line for anyone, but with acne-prone and sensitive skin people in mind, that they could trust, they could fully trust a skincare line that wasn't going to make things worse. Yes.

And to be a safe haven, if you will, and to know that I can top to bottom, go to this personal day line and know. that if I purchase something, it's going to be free of these bad ingredients. Yeah. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. I think people often forget. We're so pressured to have our skin look a certain way that we forget that our skin is our body's largest organ. And, you know, would you be like dumping chemical agents on top of your liver all day?

No. So you don't want to do it with your skin either. And I think it's, I think it's very cool that you lasered in on an area of personal struggle understood the larger struggle of that area for so many people. And then said, I think I can help fix this and maybe do it more holistically and more kindly than some of the other folks out there are doing it. And I think it's very, very cool. Thank you. I think ultimately, I don't, at the end of the day, this job, as much as people would like to tell me that I don't have a right to say is stressful, is incredibly stressful and hard.

And unless you're in that position, you can't make that judgment. You just can't. And if I'm going to be in a career, that's very stressful. If I have the privilege and opportunity to help other people, absolutely. And I never, ever wanted to put my face or name on something. My name isn't even on the brand that I created intentionally. Because if people are saying, hey, do you want to create something? I'm going to go, okay, well, it has to help people. And also, I would love for people to not even know that I'm attached to it because that's how effective the products need to be.

Yes. Because I can't. I mean, it would be very embarrassing to make products that made people's skin worse or caused reactions. And it's been, like, every day I'm receiving a text message now because the line's been out since the end of October, people who have been using the line for a month now who are texting me going, I'm getting complimented on my skin. for the first time in my life. And that is, I just think, okay, that's why I'm doing this because I, not for truly any other reason than I also wanted this line of like safe skincare, but to help other people in the process, I, that has been the most fulfilling.

It really is like to receive a text message from people saying, my skin is changing because of these products, I just know and deeply empathize with how bad a breakout to make you feel and to feel that something is in the world now that people are, it's positively impacting the way that they're viewing their face when they wake up in the morning is ultimately very, very good for my soul, I think. I feel very warm, warm about it. I love that, which is like,

that's the goal. Yeah, absolutely. It makes me think about, and I don't even remember where I said it, I feel like you always have your best moment of brilliance when you're not paying attention to yourself. And at some point, I was talking about advice I wanted to give to my younger self, and I said that I wanted to say to her, you are allowed to be a masterpiece and a work in progress simultaneously. And I think what you're talking about is exactly that kind of energy. where you are trying to be your best self and also make room for the process of being a human at the same time.

You want to have gratitude for everything you've done and still have goals. You want to be able to relish in where you are today and still dream about your future. You know, it's the tension of the both and, I think when you lean into it and choose to be introspective can be so beautiful.

Yeah, and it takes the pressure off I think to remind yourself that you are an ever-evolve in person. Yes. You've got time to grow and to change. You've got, I mean, hopefully, but like, metaphorically even, you've got, you've got time and space to do it, and you don't need to be the best version of yourself by the time you're 30 or by the time you're whatever. I just think to remind it to gentle,

we all need that gentle reminder of you are really that ever-evolving thing. Yes. And that's what life is literally about. So stop trying to meet the deadline. There is no deadline of that. It's the whole life's journey. When you think about that, that sort of ethos, is there something, and it can be professional or personal, or maybe it's a mix of both, is there something, as you look ahead at the new year that's about to start, that really feels like your work in progress

right now? I think lately it's giving myself grace and giving others grace and kind of understanding what that actually means. But to me, I think it's the big one for me has been comparison is the thief of joy. Yes. And again, that's the social media of it all. Does not help, but to be happy for others when they get their flowers, which is a phrase that I really like, and knowing that there's space for everyone to have that. And I think we're just in this industry that hammers into you this competition. And if you're not at this certain peak of your success by this certain time that you've missed the boat or that I think that something that a lot of people can relate to is obviously you're watching everyone's lives on social media

and so you're comparing yourself to people who have what you want and if you're not seeing yourself getting it anytime soon or if you feel that oh that's so far away for me or I'll never achieve that I think the comparison if you took away if you sat with yourself and took away everybody else's success and sat with your own. And we're able to focus on how far you've come and what you've achieved without measuring it against other people. Yes. I think your satisfaction would be exponentially higher. Yes. And so giving myself grace, because I know that I'm literally living in a world that tells me to compare myself to every person that I see.

All the time, and that's horrible. Yes. Like, it's like, just remind yourself of that. That's kind of what you need. Give yourself the grace of knowing that that is the world that you're in. And so it's understandable that you feel these things. I think I've had to just give myself a brain and saying, like, we get it. Yeah, I get it.

I can look at my problems and go, yeah. It makes sense why I feel that way. Yep. And then going, okay, well, let's try to eliminate then the factors of maybe let's be on social media less. Yeah. Maybe let's remind ourselves of this phrase like everyone has room to have their flowers. Let people have that. Let people have their thing.

And don't be angry or jealous or covet what other people have. Yeah. No one is taking away what you could have. by getting what they have. No one's taking anything away from you. And there's room for all of us. It's a big planet. It's a big world.

Yep. There's room for us all. And I think that to me is a big thing that's in the last half of this year I've been landing on. And so I will be carrying that with me into 2025. I love that. I think that's really wonderful. Thanks. We'll see.

I also, I kind of think that this, making space for that truth and realizing that the narrative that there isn't enough, the idea that scarcity is somehow our destiny as humans, I just think that's one of those lies the patriarchy tells us. So when we are trying to create a more holistic human experience and lean particularly, I think, into generational wisdom. the generational wisdom of women. It's like, oh, we're not doing the scarcity thing that those guys in power told us. Well, it's the phrase, you're too much as a woman. No, ma'am. We're not doing that. That doesn't exist. That's not a thing. It's someone years ago when I was, we were into the sort of real throws of our, of our first big show said to me, you need to take any person who's ever said to you you're intimidating say no you're just intimidated and i was like oh it makes me feel so strong and powerful so it's all all those lessons i think that we can glean and you know take with us as we

start figuring out how to be these more human more empathetic people are wonderful that's a great thing whoever said that to you right it was a really good one i was like oh tattoo it on my soul it's a perspective it's just a perspective shift like there's nothing wrong with you maybe it's how the other person is perceiving you that's wrong. Maybe that. Maybe that. Maybe that. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. You're just a gem. Thank you. Well, so are you. And I appreciate you offering up a space in which people can feel safe to talk about the things that are not easy. and I think it's rare that people cultivate a space that feels really safe and warm and you do that really so well and I appreciate that because sometimes I walk away from podcast thinking oh this is going to hurt me in some way like this is going to maybe backfire this is going to maybe backfire but I just think definitely not the case here so thank you yeah to get to conversationally break bread with people is a supreme privilege. Yeah. Thanks for coming. You do it. You do it well. Yeah. Thank you for having me.

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