Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Malala Yousafzai

Episode Date: November 12, 2025

Malala Yousafzai was just 15 when the Taliban tried to silence her for demanding girls’ right to education — and instead made her one of the most powerful voices of her generation. Now 28, the Nobel Peace Prize winner reflects on the life behind the legend — the recovery, love story, and private doubts few have ever heard her share. Find out why Malala says real courage isn’t about surviving what happened to her but choosing how to live after it.Malala's new memoir "Finding My Way" is available now at bookstore.org.Learn more about the Malala fund here and Recess here.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hi, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to Work in Progress. Weptomarties. Today, we are joined by someone. I have been hoping to interview for so many years. an activist that I look up to, a leader who has shifted the conversation around women and girls around the world, a woman who won the Nobel Peace Prize at the age of 17, who also happens to be

a hell of a lot of fun, very funny, and on her own journey of reclamation of her full self. Today we're sitting down with Malala Yusufzai. She made the world listen at just 15 when underd, underdard. Taliban rule, she was blogging for the BBC about her life under occupation, fighting for a right to education, and she was targeted and shot. She survived a assassination attempt and refused to be silenced, and since her voice has shaken governments inspired millions and truly changed the conversation about girls' education worldwide. Now Malala's 28, living in the UK with husband and she's built a life that blends global advocacy and personal growth. And I want to talk to her

about what her life is like away from the cameras and the crowds. How she's begun to remind herself that she's allowed to just be a girl sometimes. She doesn't have to be a saint. She doesn't always have to be a leader. But she always will be someone that we all look up to. Her new book, Finding My Way, is an absolutely gorgeous exam. of this journey. She reveals never before shared private struggles that have existed behind her public courage, how she's grappled with survivors' guilt, how she's navigated the pressures of global fame, and how she's still trying to make a difference in a world that seems more resistant to change perhaps than ever in our lifetimes. And while she may be one of the most

incredible figureheads we have for women in the world. Like the rest of us, she's just a girl trying to figure it out one day at a time. Let's talk all things with Malala. Well, hello, and thank you so much for joining me on the show today. Oh, thank you. I'm so excited to be here. How is the book tour going? I mean, it's a lot of work but I'm so excited it's fun yeah and I'm and I'm so excited to go to like different cities in the US, UK, Europe and meet the people who are going to enjoy reading this book yeah it's amazing I've been thinking so much in advance of today because I normally like to ask people when we sit down together to begin given anyone I sit with is usually doing something

incredible in the world as you are. You know, audiences will know you for your body of work, your activism, who you are as an adult in the world. And I always like to go backwards with guests and find out about the through lines and the connections to who they were in their use, you know, the traits they grew up with that may be tied to who they are today. And most often I ask people to take me back to, if they could imagine rather, an interaction with themselves at 10. But it really sort of took me back thinking about that for you because you were 10 when the Taliban took over the Swat Valley in Pakistan. And just thinking about sitting in a room with you going, oh my God, what's that going to be like for her? I wonder if you'd rather go

back to maybe your eight-year-old self or your nine-year-old self, is there joy when you think about your youth pre that shift that you'd rather begin within? We went through a very tough time when the Taliban took over. This was when I understood how valuable peace is and how lucky those of us are who get the opportunity to get an education and follow our dreams because the Taliban denied all of that to women and girls in my hometown. But I have treasured every moment

that I had with my friends. The moments I had in Swat Valley before the Taliban took over, we were surrounded by beautiful mountains, we lived by the rivers and I loved being closer to nature. But even during the Taliban time, when we would secretly go to school,

hide our books and try to make sure that the Taliban never caught us, we would treasure the laughter, the giggles with friends. So it's still a memorable moment for me when I think about girls having dreams and still trying to learn even when scary men try to stop them.

And after we saw what life looks like when you do not have peace, when you are hearing bombings and attacks, you are internally displaced, you lose all of that is that after that we treasure every moment of peace so we're just so grateful for it

I do have memories but of course I sort of became an activist at a very young age so life did not feel like that of a normal child that I was before it did change significantly but I still try to

have normal experiences as much as I could that's really special it's interesting to think about for you in that timeline because to your point you have all of the memories before it wasn't like you were three or four years old yeah so you didn't know what you'd lost do you think at the time you were able to reflect on pre and post takeover or or was the the fearful adventure of continuing to pursue your education with was that really central to your work

world. Now as an adult, you can look back and really see the contrast in the pre and post takeover. I remember the early days of growing up in Swat Valley and my time with my two younger brothers. We used to like fight all the time, but we loved each other as well. I loved watching television. I loved my studies. I was obsessed with school, actually. The girls in my hometown valued education because they knew that it is rare to have a supportive father and a supportive family that allow you to be in school. So there were already many challenges that girls were facing an access to education. But when we saw the most extreme form of oppression against women where armed gunmen

try to impose these rules on women that they cannot have jobs, they cannot leave their homes and girls cannot go to school, that's when we realized that education is such a powerful tool that the people who do not want to see women empowered, they take education first from women. So, you know, I remember the before time that we had in Swat Valley and I, you know, sometimes I wish, like, those days had lasted for a lot longer. Now there is peace, you know, after like two, three years of terrorism, a military operation was done, people returned to their homes after the displacement.

but it still, I feel like, takes a while that, it feels like it still takes a while for people to recover from what had happened. Of course. Well, because the trauma, it changes your limbic system, your ability to walk outside in a carefree manner, to look at the mountains or watch the water in the river, to feel a lightness of being when it's taken from you. I think it takes so much longer to get back

than the theft takes to happen. When you talk about knowing, you know, if these men wanted so badly to steal women's empowerment, so badly that they would try to steal education from girls as young as 10 years old, younger, were you and your classmates, while you were fighting to study in secret, were you talking about it in real time?

Were your relatives, your mothers, your aunties, like were the women in your life telling you why they were particularly so aggressive with the women and girls? Yes, it was our normal day-to-day conversation to talk about what new rules the Taliban are now announcing, restricting women from something else. and, you know, people try to make sense of it, but it just made no sense

because the Taliban would sometimes defend it as an Islamic rule, but everybody said that, you know, we are already an Islamic country. And in Islam, education is not only a right, but it's actually a duty. You are supposed to learn, and it's an equal opportunity for both men and women,

so how can the Taliban be bringing their own extreme patriarchal norms into this? So we were also challenging them in misusing Islam. Yes. So yes, you know, there were people who were challenging it, but, you know, the Taliban were threatening people who spoke out against them. The month of January 2009 was very scary because girls were not allowed to be in school. They were bombing schools and they were targeting people who spoke out. So I was more worried about my father at the time because I was only 11 years old.

I did not know that they would come and attack a girl or a child, but I was more concerned about my father because I knew that a lot of activists who had spoken against the Taliban had been attacked every night I would pray for my father to be safe. Of course. Because his defending you put a target on his back as well. Yes, and he was a very strong advocate for for girls' education. He spoke out for women.

So, you know, they see men who become allies. of women as a threat. Of course. Of course, because in a fundamentalist or violently patriarchal culture, men who ally themselves with us are traitors to the patriarchy. Yes, yes. 100%. And it just reminds us how powerful and important the role of men is to help dismantle patriarchy. Yes.

You know, I tell people that I was able to speak out, be in front of a camera and tell my story to the world because my father did not stop me. He supported me doing that. So many other girls in my school, in my community wanted to tell their story, but their brothers or their fathers

stop them. The men stopped them. And it's so important for people to know that, you know, it's like oftentimes it's the men who clip the wings of their daughters, of the girls in their community. So oftentimes,

You know, my dad is asked what he did for his daughter and he says, don't ask me what I did, but ask me what I did not do. I did not clip her wings. Yeah. I love your dad. It's really... He's very cool. Yeah, right?

How lucky to have such a cool dad. And I think, you know, that's a big part of it because, obviously, as women, we understand what our gendered issues are. And if we're just talking to women about it, it's like we're yelling in an echo chamber. Yeah. We need men to. break through the issues with us. Yes. I wonder for you, you know, you mentioned that you had everything changed so early. You know, you wish you'd had more of those pre-years, a longer

runway of normal childhood, as it were, you know, to go through what you went through the fact that by 11 you were an activist you know you were blogging for the BBC I'm sure now you understand the bravery that that took both on your own part and your father's part certainly your family's part did you know then or as a young girl who loved school who was pissed someone was telling you you couldn't go did it just feel like the right outlet. It's a fair question that if you are experiencing such a scary situation and you know that the Taliban could target you, why would you speak out? But I always remind people that I was more scared of a life without an education. Yes. That future was dark. And I had seen how so many

girls had lost that opportunity. I mean, you know, my life took a whole different trajectory. So that, you know, I could never imagine that I would be, like, living in the UK and I would be going to Oxford and all of that. My dream was just to continue going to that local school that the Taliban, you know, wanted to close. And so, yeah, you know, when when I finished my graduation at Oxford, it was in 2020, I felt like I had won a battle, that this was a personal victory. I did not need to make any announcement or anything but I took a moment with myself and I told myself you have won you completed your education

this is what the Taliban did not want to see and you are living that moment well and living it not only as someone who escaped a system and who escaped a real vacuum of violence in a time but I mean you literally survived an assassination attempt Yes.

That's not something most people go through, let alone most 15-year-old girls. I know that's obviously a story you've had to reflect on a lot. And the last thing I ever want to do is to ask women to constantly relive their trauma for maybe the five people living under a rock who don't know about it. But one of the things that I'm fascinated by is actually how we heal. Yes. And I've been so moved by the way you've spoken about how there was a time. You know, whereas the human brain does, your brain worked to protect you and you couldn't recall a lot. Yes.

And you've worked on taking back, I would say, parts of those memories and being able to move past them. After this many years of doing that sort of self-work, how does it sit with you now? How do you feel now? Are you more desirous of saying, I've spoken about it and I'd like to move on? Or are you in a place where you feel like there are lessons you might want to offer to other survivors of trauma? Yeah. I remember my last day of school in Pakistan. I'm with my friends.

I hope I can go to school the next day. And then something happens. Like there's just too many memories, too many visuals. And it's just a very confusing time. But I think about a week later, I wake up in a hospital in a different country. I do not see a single brown face. Everybody is speaking a different language. I have a tube in my neck.

I am processing what had happened. I'm looking for my family. I'm just like, you know, who has brought me here? What happened? At the time, I was just trying to process this adjustment to a new. culture, restarting a whole new life. And I felt like I did not have any time that I needed to recover quickly. And I healed through the surgeries quickly as well.

We were offered mental health support as well. There was a therapist. But this was the first time I was hearing about it. You know, in Pakistan it's often associated with like, you know, people who like go crazy. And so I was like, oh, you know, know what do you mean therapy I sort of rolled my eyes and I did not get therapy at the time but seven years later in college that whole shooting experience was triggered by a bong incident and that that night was the scariest night I had ever expedient because I felt

that I I relived it that the the memory the flashbacks everything that that I had suppressed in my memory, or maybe that my brain had just to protect me. I would try to remember, but I couldn't remember anything. And suddenly everything was right in front of my eyes that night. I froze. I could not do anything. I felt helpless.

And as much as I tried, I, you know, I started getting so scared. I could not even close my eyes because I thought if I closed my eyes, I would die. and you know I felt that maybe maybe I remembered maybe I had seen what the Taliban did to me and everything changed for me since because I could not get myself out of the trauma I felt that it was something that was left undone it was an unfinished part of my recovery I always associated my recovery with the physical injuries and once a surgery was done I said, I am fully recovered.

Everything is done. But this was that open wound that we did not, that we did not heal. Yes. So yeah, after months of panic attacks, anxiety, PTSD, I finally started therapy. And it was only when a friend of mine told me that I should see a therapist. She could see that I was not being myself. And she told me that a lot of students get that and she herself sees a therapist. That gave me a little comfort that I am not the only awkward one.

And I was hoping that maybe I'll get some medication in the therapy. Right. That here are my problems. Prescribe me something. Fix it fast. Yes. Yeah. They told me this is going to be a process.

Yes. That's incredible. And now for our sponsors. It is interesting, isn't it, how stigma, it really worms its way in to the way we feel about ourselves. Yeah. And how lucky you were in the moment that this horrible thing was happening to you, that you had the great gift of friends say, no, we, we, so many people go to therapy, we need it. You know, realizing that there's stigma about it means that I talk about therapy on the podcast so much. Everybody knows I'm obsessed with my therapist.

He's like one of my favorite people on the planet. And what I've realized, I think especially for women who love education, for women who are activists, when you are a problem solver, you often look out at the world and think, I'm going to dedicate my time to this cause and these people and I'll show up at this thing and I'll lend my voice to that thing over there. And it takes someone saying you can also advocate for yourself. Yes. You can also invest in yourself. You can also work through the kind of critical thinking you've become an expert at for your own well-being. And I find it really interesting how long it takes us to turn that sort of love of the world back on ourselves. Yeah.

But what an amazing thing that you got to begin to do that. Yes. And now I embrace therapy as part of my job. journey. Initially, I was taking it as a one-off treatment, but I realized I need it. I need it more. Because I thought I was like, okay, you know, I'm sort of done with it. But then a few years later, I'm in South Africa and I speak about the situation of women and girls in Afghanistan, how the Taliban are restricting them from work and any political and public presence. And girls are banned from education. So when I spoke at the Nelson Mandela lecture, I

finished all my interviews and, you know, in the middle of the night, I wake up from my sleep and I am like shaking and shivering and I thought I was going to die. It was a proper panic attack and my husband was there with me. He supported me and was holding my hand. But I realized that there is still so much that I have left unaddressed. So I went back to my therapist. And now I'm like, okay, therapy is going to stay with me. I'm going to. keep seeing my therapist more regularly and we should normalize it. I think that's the most important thing. I think especially, you know, we're at least here. You know, I don't know how it feels to you in the UK, but in the U.S., we're so obsessed with physical fitness. That's also good. Well, sure, but for

me, I'm like, if you go to the gym, if you know you should go for a walk after dinner to stabilize your blood sugar, your brain needs a walk too. Yes. You know, your brain needs the gym. And so I try to reframe, when I speak about mental health, I try to reframe therapy as your brain gym or your mental health care. Yes. You know, it's health care. Yeah. And I think even that for me has done something where, you know, Tuesdays at 9 a.m.,

that's my therapy slot. And I'm like, it's my brain Pilates. Yes. You know? That's so helpful because I remember feeling just guilty for simply wanting to take a break. or get a nap or go out for a walk because I thought when you are an activist, you're supposed to give 24-7,

or rather 25 hours, you know, like the extra time you can give to the work, to the mission. And I would, you know, I was always tired and exhausted and I was overwhelmed. And I think that's why these things like anxiety and PTSD and panic attacks like started happening because it all piles up. It adds to it that, you know,

It was only when I got married that I started considering, like, this, you know, rest time and sports and just relaxing more seriously. Yes. So, yes, I do go to the gym. I do weight lifting and all of that. Nice. And I'm becoming a proper gym, bro, which I love, or a gym sis. Okay, okay. And I do try, like, new sports.

Whatever that is, I don't have to be perfect at it. and of course I can never be good at it, but I'm like, it's just about playing and enjoying the sport. But more than that, it is giving myself some time to rest and recharge myself, because I would not be able to deliver my best on the things that I care about if I do not look after myself. Absolutely.

That's been such a lesson for me too. And I think it is that activist's sort of motivation or heart where you think I've got to give, give, give, give, give. I'm so privileged in my relative life. I've got to always be doubling down. And eventually I realized between that and the way I've been cultured to perform as an actor,

and I've learned a lot of this with my partner because of the way she was cultured to perform as an athlete, when you constantly think you have to be at the top of your game, constantly have to give every moment to excellence or community or the speech or the flight or the book or the thing you lose your sense of wonder yeah and when you stop playing you also stop reparenting that that inner child to be able to give some play and adventure back to yourself especially in the way that it was taken from you yeah in your story in your life it's so restorative for the soul yes and we also our lives, our careers, they're so serious. Sometimes I'm like, God, I'm so sick of being serious. I need a break. I want to go to something stupid. I have to remember that it's okay to not be good at everything. Yes. And, you know, I also caveat that by saying I'm the asthmatic in the family. Like, I'm not a sport. I love to watch sports. I can't play them. So I'm not good at them

either. But it's, it does take some learning, right? To be free to play a little bit. Yes. Now I see sleep, physical health, and mental health as part of my activist life. And I know I can perform best in my activism if I am counting all of these things as part of my work. They are not something off work. This is not an off work activity. Like you have to count in your sleep. You have to count in your nutrition. You have to count in your mental and physical health. and just recognize that this is going to help you deliver best in the work that you do. It makes me so curious.

I've wondered this for you. And I'm so excited to get the one on one time because usually I see you at something enormous. I know. It's like, this is cool, but, you know, everyone's shuttled in and out. I was wondering for you when I think about, you know, the timeline of your age. Yes. Again, blogging by 11 for the BBC, going through your incident. at 15, you know, as you said, waking up in a new country and having to adjust to

essentially the life of a political refugee, do you ever feel like, did you ever feel, maybe this is what you're reclaiming now, did you ever feel like you could just be a girl, a kid? Like, were you ever allowed to have a bad day or be in a bad mood? I wished for it, but I could not find an opportunity to be myself. So when I started school in the UK, I was in an all-girl school and I had to be in school like for the whole day almost and then come home and my parents would just say, you know, stayed home or then I would be traveling for different events and conferences and be surrounded by people who are like 30, 40 years older than me and talking about really serious

things and sharing my story. But at home I remember, my parents wouldn't even allow me to go to my friends evening party or just you know friends school hangouts and all of these things which like basic things you just go for a pizza party or something like that but my parents were always worried um i remember like one time there were there was just like new year's eve fireworks at one of my friend's house and i i couldn't go and so my friend just recorded some videos on snapchat and she sent it to me so that's how i i was trying to um to be a part of it by the end of my school life. I had only made one best friend. That was it. And it was also, I think, just

purely by chance because she fell out with her other best friend and I was just sort of like a side character. She's like, okay, you know, like you can be with me. But I rarely talked. I couldn't really be myself. I missed the old Malala that I was in Pakistan. Mischievous, funny, loud. I loved cracking jokes and, you know, I was just, I had just so many friends. And I remember, I was like, there was a part of me who was an activist, but still myself. And somehow, Now I'm supposed to be like, you know, this grown saintly kind of activist who has to meet this expectation of, like, being the same person. She cannot learn about herself. Like, she has to be this fixed version of herself now.

So then came an opportunity where I thought, you know what, maybe I could experience things a bit differently. And that was when I was about to join college. Wow. And how did you decide on Oxford? I mean, it was my dream place to go to, I had heard about Oxford as a kid. And the university is so beautiful. It has many colleges, old libraries. It is by the Chalwell River, so you're just so close to nature.

And the college that I selected for myself is called Lady Margaret Hall. And it was the first women's college at Oxford. Women were not allowed to go into any other library or colleges. which was, you know, just 120-something years ago, so not that long ago that this was a reality for women even in the UK, U.S. So, yeah, I knew that college was the place where I wanted to study.

That's really beautiful. And the Pakistani female prime minister, Belizir Bhutto, also went to that college. So many reasons for why I should, yeah, why I thought I should consider it. It's really, really cool. And now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy,

and I think you will too. Interesting too to think about the timelines. You know, when you experienced present and active oppression, suppression in your home country, in your childhood, then even, you know, a decade later to be walking the halls of Oxford, half a decade later, and to know, oh, there was a time when I wouldn't have been allowed here either. Yeah. You know, when you talked at the top of the hour about what the Taliban goes after, why it's girls' education, why it's the empowerment of women, you know, what those systems

look like, that patriarchy, the, if you will, the bastardization of faith to be fundamentalist and actually against what the book says. Yes. You know, it's holding up a pretty terrifying mirror for me in what we're dealing with today in America. Yes. The fundamental bastardization of Christianity, even though we're not a theocracy,

the architects of Project 2025 want us to be, you know, the banning of books, the destabilization of women's roles in society, their desire to remove not only our bottom, autonomy, but literally remove us from the halls of power government. You know, it's so surreal to see that we keep making the same mistakes. You know, you think about 120 years ago at Oxford, well, we learned that lesson and now it's different. We've learned these lessons before. Yes. You know, so much of what's going on in America today, we fought world wars over

this stuff and somehow we're back and I wonder as you're balancing this really healthy sphere of your personal growth and your own joy and your own play how how do you counterbalance the imperative mission yeah of continuing to show up and say to people like ding ding ding we've been talking about this we're going in the wrong direction you know how do you not just out there as an activist but but like you the girl on the couch across from me how do you keep yourself feeling fortified and and not losing hope or falling prey to just frustration that we could be this stupid again yes you know i think we all are feeling the same way in many parts of the world. I feel the exact same way when I think about the situation

of women and girls in Afghanistan right now. They are living under a system of gender apartheid imposed by the Taliban who are punishing women and girls for simply daring to get their education or be at work. The Taliban have made it a crime for women to have these equal rights they um an afghan gul has not seen a classroom for the past four and half years when i when i think about you know what's happening it breaks my heart and you're very right you know in in times like these you wonder whether you should be celebrating success or you should be um screaming into the void screaming yeah into the void or at the people who are imposing these things into the megaphone Yes, like, you know, why have we lost humanity?

Like, what is happening? Why are people putting the girls' education issue aside, you know, that people are normalizing relations with the Taliban and women are not allowed in the rooms? You know, women are erased. Women are actually erased from public life or any existence, which is really scary. because it's not just about women and girls in Afghanistan. It is about what message are we sending to women and girls everywhere? Everywhere.

About our commitment to this so-called gender equity or feminism. You know, these words fall short. They mean nothing if we cannot act on them when an injustice is happening right in front of our eyes. I started my activism at a young age. So I was an idealist for a very long time. I thought we could make some change happen. with time I thought maybe I am naive because everybody tells me

it takes a long time I know that we are mobilizing activists and people on the ground teachers young women, gulls and through Malala fund we investing them in Pakistan and Nigeria Afghanistan like all of these countries they're leading amazing work

they're changing policies they're like changing the futures of gulls but at the same time when I witness the reality of how a gull like in 2025 in Afghanistan is banned from education, how schools are still getting bombed in places like Gaza,

how child marriage is a reality for gals in parts of Africa. When hundreds of millions of children are losing their future, it is frightening. That, you know, still like we have to defend it, we have to talk about it, we have to explain it.

So I have, you know, become more pessimistic now but it doesn't stop me from the way I do my work it actually makes me work harder because I think that maybe we were just too naive and we took it for granted or we thought it would be too easy

so when we reflect on what's happening I'm like maybe we just thought one accomplishment and somebody is now using a hashtag that the job is done no I think we need to think about systemic change a lasting change that guarantees protection to women and girls everywhere. I love that.

For so long you had to be this fixed version of yourself. And you talk about your childhood and a little mischievousness and I'm like, well, I want to know what your favorite naughty habit is. And I don't think a lot of women get to be their whole selves in public. And it made me think for you, you know, not only did you go through all of this at such a young age, but even winning the Nobel Peace Prize at such a young age. I mean, it was 2014. How old were you? 17.

I was going to say 19. 17's even worse. I mean, amazing. But like, did it make you nervous about evolving, growing, even dating? You know, you talk about your husband with such a smile. Like, how is a Nobel Peace Prize winner allowed to go on dates as a girl in college? Do you know, like, after the Nobel Peace Prize, I thought, yeah, like, you know, people are, paying more attention to what I'm doing and they treat me with so much respect.

But I thought I'm a bit less cool now for the voice. And like, oh, boring, no bell. They're like nerd. She has like, you know, nothing funny to say. So I, you know, I wanted to let that funny side of me come out. Yeah. And in college, when I finally felt that, you know, I am in the space now on a campus with no parents. Yeah.

For the first time. And no staff or work people, this is my time now. And I'm going to decide my calendar. I'm going to decide what I want to do. Did you ever skip class? Many. I'm so proud of you. Oh, my God.

It doesn't sound right, but let me explain. Listen, you needed a break. In college, like, you have to make choices. Yeah. I chose socializing over studying. It doesn't mean I was not studying at all. But if I could hang out with my friends and have some fun moments, climb the college rooftop or talk about boys and who was dating who and who needs my advice on, you know, which boys to date, I wanted to do all of that. Because just that normal life of a college girl, you know, a woman in her early 20s was something I had missed.

And I wanted to relive that. Yes. I made the most amazing friends at college. They gave me that comfort zone where I could be myself. I did not have to think twice about anything I said. Because before I thought, you know, are people going to quote me? Are they judging me? Am I supposed to know everything?

Can I be allowed like not to know anything, like absolutely anything and not to have? In the opinion? Yeah. So what do you think? I'm like, I don't know. I haven't thought about it. You tell me. And, you know, those friends were amazing.

It was the first time that I felt they were not interested in what happened when I was attacked. What was it like when I won the Nobel Peace Prize? They just wanted to know what I was up to with my assignments. What was I doing the next day? Should we go and get some groceries and, oh, what do you think about that guy? Isn't he cute? Oh, my goodness. Goodness, that's so incredible.

Yeah, friends don't judge you. They give you that comfort zone. I mean, the closest I can relate, not that I can relate to your journey in almost any way, but the closest I can, I went to a very small all-girls school all through middle school, all through high school. Yes. And when I was picking a college in a sort of similar way, I thought it's been me. and, you know, I'm one of 55 girls in my class. There's 250 kids, girls, in my entire school from fourth grade to 12th grade. I just want to have the college experience I've seen in the movies.

So I decided to go to USC. And I was like, look at this, a football game. Never seen one of those before. Exactly. Look at this. A Greek system. Look at this. You know, a cafeteria.

Did you see voice? I mean, everywhere. Yeah. See, I also had no exposure. No exposure. I had not seen boys. Yeah. When I saw them, I was like, oh, you know, it wasn't really worth the time.

Yeah. Also, college boys are kind of disgusting. I know. It's weird to sit in the classroom for the first time your freshman year in college and be like, what is that smell? And you're like, oh, it's the boys. That was the part that, like, that's never in the movie. They think they're cool, but they're not as cool.

I think, yeah, they, you know, they mature sort of a bit later. I mean, we love them. Yes. But I was like, you all need to shower more. They never talk about this part in the films. Okay, okay. Yeah. It's just so funny to me.

I love picturing you, like, moving across the rooftops of your dorm with all your friends. I know. And then in college, I also just felt more comfortable in just accepting my emotions and my feelings. So when I saw this mysterious college guy who was very, very handsome, I was like, wow, he's so good looking. And I found out that he was like struggling with his essays and he was in trouble all the time and the tutors were not happy with him.

I was like, oh, is there a way I can help him? I think maybe he needs my help. And my friends were rolling their eyes. They said he always gets into trouble. Stay away from him. He might be a drug dealer or something. I was like, no, no, no. I said, you need to like, you know, hear his side of the story.

and yeah so I was I was there just to like trying to signal that I'm here to help but all he wanted was some food from my room so he would just show up and get some bananas and crisps or whatever he could find he would not say a single word and then disappear interesting so yeah that was like my failed mission that's okay but that was more you gotta kiss a few frogs yeah but that was love in imagination I would say something that I sort of felt good about because I was feeling something, but that was not real, of course. He was clearly ghosting me and ignoring me. I was refusing to accept the signs.

Then he disappeared. But, you know, I realize that you sort of, you grow so much when you allow these emotions to come out and you embrace them. But then soon after I met Aser, who is now my husband. Yes. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. Yes. Was it an interesting thing for you meeting your husband and knowing that there was something special in your connection,

but also knowing that if he was to be with you, his life would become public in a way? How did you too navigate that? I was not thinking from his perspective at all, even though I should have. So I remember, you know, meeting him for the first time, we went for go-carting and I had like a mini accident. I exaggerated it a bit. I was like, I think I had a concussion. And he's like, it's okay. Like, you're fine.

Like, you're just being a bit dramatic. But anyway, I just liked that he just treated me like a normal person. Then we, you know, we went for a few dinners. Then I took him for a movie at a cinema. And I was just telling him, like, relax, you know? Like, just be yourself. why are you just like so scared and tensed and he said you know you have like two security guards right behind you yeah and i think that they're watching me so he's like it's not normal to be

dating somebody yeah he's like you feel normal i don't have these like big strong guys like right behind you and watching you so i was like okay fine like i understand it from your perspective i i knew that i loved usar i immediately fell in love with him but i wanted to take my time because I wanted to understand what it means when we make a commitment in our culture. You know, you cannot date a guy technically and you have to get married if you want to live together. So I said, okay, like, I have to not think about marriage and everything. As a kid, I just hated marriage.

I had seen how girls had lost the opportunity to complete their education because they were married off. Marriage was like a boring conversation. If you wanted to have a future, like put marriage aside, tell your family. I'm not going to get married. This is what I used to say. And I told all of my friends that, you know, don't get married. And then I saw this guy and I was like, oh, my goodness, like, he's gorgeous and I want to be with him forever.

So I took my time. I did a lot of research. I was just reading books by feminist authors, including bell hoax. And I was having conversations with my mom, with my friends. And then I got to know him more. I asked him all of sometimes like silly questions. like if your wife earns more than you would you have a problem with that

and he was like why would I even have a problem with that I'd be so lucky if she earns more than me and you know we can have a comfortable life I was like okay okay you know good answer you're like checkbox on the pro side not too bad and then in the end you know when when we spent some time together we were in Lake Placid

and we had we had shared moments that made me feel that he was the right one I felt loved when I was with him and I had prepared like a billion questions but when I was with him every question just disappeared I knew he was the one and yeah then I decided to marry him

yeah and I had told my friends don't get married at least till you are like 35 or something I was the first one in my friend's group to get married whoopsies they were like serious but in a good way yeah they were like seriously anyway

I love it well the reason that I'm such a fan of your husband I mean aside from the fact that he's obviously a lovely person and makes you happy

is that he is also a huge fan of women's sports which really says to me that he's a real one you know because he's not just like hey babe let's go to an NBA game he's like let's go see

the New York Liberty when we're in town and I love that for him and I love that for us he is a big women's sports fan we both also have started working on a project called Recess, which is to invest in women's sports opportunities.

And, you know, I have seen in my work that for us to make a real difference for women and girls, we can't just give them advice and words of inspiration. We have to do real things to create opportunities for them. I tell a girl, believe in yourself, follow her, follow your dreams. And they look back and like, sorry, but there are not enough leagues for us, not enough teams for us, not enough opportunities for us. Yeah. And I'm like, that's a fair response from young people

that there's still a lot that needs to be done in all sectors, including sports, where we create equal opportunities for girls where they can do it, you know, they can treat sports as a hobby as part of their education

or as their career. Sports should be a career option for girls from any part of the world. So I hope that we can, you know, we can make a difference and we can bring in You know, our expertise into this. I'm just so excited for the work ahead.

And I named it recess because I think about a school recess time, especially the recess time that I was experiencing when I was a kid in Pakistan. And girls had to stay back in the school on a sports day. And boys could go to the local cricket ground. No. That was the assumption that only boys could go to the cricket ground and girls could not. They had to just be stuck at school. They couldn't play any sports.

No way. And I asked my husband, I said, what was your sports day like in Pakistan? He said, yeah, you know, we used to play hockey and then football and then cricket. It's like, hmm. So very different experience for boys when it's their recess time and very different experience for girls when it's their recess time. Yes. Can girls have a different recess time?

Yes, if we create opportunities for them, if we start looking at sports from the gender equity lens and make the right decisions and the right shifts, Yes. Yes, I think we can make a difference. And they absolutely can if we create it. Yes. And one of the reasons it feels so incredibly important to me, and I'm excited about it, girls who play sports become leaders.

Yes. You know, in the U.S., the statistic is that 84% of women who sit in C-sweets, in the highest seats of power in business and entrepreneurship, played high school or collegiate sports. But we also see that by the age of 13, 50% of girls, are dropping out of sport because of access issues or body confidence issues

and so I really think to your point about gender equity I think sports and access to sports play, you know, team building I think that is a real sort of incredible inflection point for us and I want the girls that we have been beating these doors down

as activists for that we're trying to hold them open for all these girls to come behind us I want them to have that access. And knowing how important it is for us here, when I think about places around the world, like you said, places you work with your fund, whether it's Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nigeria. Like, we've got to get girls on the field. Yes.

You know, girls deserve to have an opportunity in everything that they dream for themselves. Sports is one of that. Yeah. And I hope that we can make a difference for them. Yeah. It's so exciting. Oh, my God. I can't wait for us.

figure out what our first sporting event is. I know. We have to go to some games. Have you seen cricket? I have seen it on TV. I've never seen it live. I think we should go and see a cricket game. Okay.

How about that? And we should also go watch some football. But when I say football, I mean, real football is in soccer. Okay, soccer. Not the backwards thing that us Americans did, which is steal the international word for soccer. And then make football handball. I think America is a topic for another day. I know, but sometimes I'm like,

Why are we like this? That you guys can come up with. I don't know why we're like this. It's like our democratic experiment, the core of it is so gorgeous. And then there's just some things in the flywheel that I'm like, we got to be better than this. Talking about being better. Yes. Leading with a better vision, your book.

I'm so happy we're in person so I can hold it up to camera. The art is so beautiful. The book is so beautiful. Thank you. I just, I want every, I want everyone, not just every girl or every woman to read this book. I want everyone to read this book. You've talked on this tour, not to sound like a total creep, but I've been paying attention. You've talked on your tour about how the book feels more honest. Yes. And you said something that kills me because I know what you mean, I think. You said it's more awkward, more. me. And I was like, oh my God, I feel like that lately. I feel like I've come to a point where like I'm a little more awkward and a little more myself. What does that mean for you? What does this book mean for you? This book is the most personal reflections I have ever shared. And of course, I was put in the spotlight from a very young age. People have come to know me through headlines and titles that I have received. Even I got to know myself through that. And I was like, okay, you know, maybe this is the life that I have to embrace and internalize.

But I realize that there's just so much more to life. I wanted to grow into womanhood. I knew that I just cannot be this fixed version that somebody else is expecting of me. Or I am under the assumption. Like it's all about perceptions, you know, how we understand or receive these things. That I, you know, could not allow myself to be funny again. and to feel loved or to make friends, I thought these things are not for me.

And I felt that maybe I'm doing a disservice to my role as an activist if I am also exploring, like, you know, who I am as a person. But on this journey through college, through my years after that, I have grown as a person. I feel that I have more, like, diverse and more rich.

emotions and feelings, I thought that I survived the Taliban incident and I restarted a new life and I was so brave to do that. But when I had the panic attack and I relived the whole attack experience, which I thought I didn't remember. So much like it broke me down. Like I could not be the brave self that I thought I was. I was in the dark. I needed my to come over to my college room for a sleepover to help me go to sleep. That's how scary it was. I could

not focus on my work. I would call my husband and say, I don't know what's happening. You know, at the time he was not my husband, but I would just call him. I was like, you know, can you tell me what has happened? I was like, maybe you have a bit more experience on what these drugs and stuff are like. But

in the end, you know, it took me months, it took me years to get through it, to find my way through it, and I still do the work that I truly believe in. Even when I have a panic attack, it does not stop me from my activism for Afghan girls. It does not stop me from standing up to the Taliban. And now I think this is true bravery.

This is true courage. I feel like I am standing up now. Right. I'm standing up now. Because you're bringing your whole self. Yeah. Yeah. That's really beautiful. I'm so happy for you. Thank you. So, I mean, big moment. You know, this is a big thing to put in the world. It's a big reconstitution and a reclamation, really, of so many parts of yourself that perhaps you didn't think you were allowed to be anymore. There's a lot of work that goes into that. When you look forward, you know, at what's coming or, or, what you're hoping for, what feels like your work in progress?

I mean, right now, for me, it's my book tour. Literally getting through the calendar. No, I'm actually excited. I'll be going to so many different parts of the world, including in the U.S. I am so excited to try everything local. I mean, the Chicago deep dish pizza. Oh, I have a whole list of restaurants for you in Chicago. And, you know, enjoy the weather in L.A. and San Francisco.

I'm excited for everything. I can't wait to go to so many parts of the U.S. and meet people and, you know, hopefully, like, talk to people. I would love to know how other people are, you know, feeling. I love talking to young people, how they are defining bravery and courage, how they are navigating their way through challenges in life. So I hope that this helps us start a new conversation. I'm sharing my most personal reflections. I'm reintroducing myself because I want. my true self to be out there in the public eye

yeah this if somebody wants to know me then this is the true me yeah it's beautiful congratulations and thank you for coming oh thank you so much so wonderful to speak to you and to be on your podcast the best This is an IHeart podcast.