Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Malin Akerman

Episode Date: September 24, 2025

Unfiltered, unapologetic, and utterly magnetic—Malin Åkerman is fresh off her bold, twist-filled turn in "The Hunting Wives" and opens up about embracing freedom on screen, the power of female friendship, and the honesty that fuels both her marriage and her career.  Plus, find out the current state of the show's second season and how she and her husband feel about her new status as a queer icon.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hi, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Well, hey, everybody. Or if we're talking about today's guest, should I say, hey, y'all. I am so excited that one of my favorite women in the, this industry is here for an interview I've been dying to do because like all of you, I am absolutely obsessed with the hunting lives. Malin Ackerman is here with us today, friends. You know

her from 27 dresses to billions. She is one of the most incredible camellions in our industry, always full of charm, always full of conviction. And she makes every project she's a part of better. And now, she is the talk of the town, thanks to The Hunting Lives on Netflix. We've just found out we're getting a season two. Thank God, because we need more of this twist-filled sexy series. Fans and critics alike have been blown away by Malin's bold, layered, courageous performance. And she is officially in the canon of queer icons now. not only is she such an advocate for women to be represented and seen and to be written in whole and exciting ways

she's also an outspoken advocate for children's mental health she is an incredible mother and she is someone i am so proud to call my friend let's dive in and talk all things with malin I have a way I really like to start with people, but with you I want to start in a very unique manner because you are one of my favorite humans and also one of the two Swedes in my life for so long. Well, women. I also have a lovely handsome Swedish man who makes one of my best friends very happy. But one of the things I love about my other amazing, hot, iconic female Swedish friend Tovlo is that she's like Yeah, that's not actually how I say my name

Like her name is Tuvalu Yeah Tuvalu So I'm like everyone is always like Malin Ackerman How do you actually pronounce your name? So if we were to say it in Swedish It's Marlin Orkiman

Hot Which sounds almost Jamaican with Orkaman There's almost like a There's a cadence to Swedish Molin Marlin Oh no it is more of an A than I'm saying Marlin

Marlin Yeah it's the eye that like kind of rolled. So that's why when it's translated, we just, my mom, when we moved to Canada, she would just say it, but try to make it more English and she say Malin. But everyone here wants

to say Malin or Malin, because that's how it's spelled, fair enough. But if we were to add an L, then that would probably help out, like a shopping mall and going in it. That's how it's kind of pronounced. Okay, cool. I like it. I like it. I like it a lot. It's also not lost on me because you know, my dad is Canadian.

Yep. Like, the Canadians can hear each other from a mile away. Oh, yeah. So you've got the Swedish and you've got that certain sound. Like, for our U.S. friends listening, people are like, well, what do you mean? They always think it's just about. But it's like Americans say Toronto. Yeah.

Like, I'm going to Toronto. Yes. And Canadians say Toronto. Toronto. Yeah. Like Montreal. Yeah. Not Montreal.

No. And so I hear that. And I'm just aware of all the accents in your life. Yeah. You've got like a one degree of separate. there's a few coming in there. I love it. I also, for our friends at home, feel so amped. I was telling the whole team, since we're here in person today, that we've known each other for almost 20 years. It's been a lot. I have a picture of you kissing my pregnant belly. Oh my God.

At the dinner in Washington, D.C. Yes. Do you remember that? Yes. Like we have known each other and now my boy is 12 years old. It's so crazy. And it's like there's nothing better than seeing your friends win. Yes, absolutely. I'm just so happy for you. Seeing your friends period or see your friends win. I mean, both. But it's just like, yes.

I just love it. I love it. I really felt geeked last weekend, you know, Emmy weekend, all the things happening. Watching people like run across a room to be like, you're so amazing, you're so hot. I was like, she is. And it was just great. I really love. I just love this moment.

I love it. It's been so much fun and it's so fun. It was such a fun weekend and just to look back and just see your smiling. face every now and then. I mean, it was just, it just felt so beautiful because, like you said, I'm the same. I think when my friends are winning, I get so excited. You know, Michelle Monaghan is a really good friend of mine and the White Lotus. And like, there's just so much to celebrate. And it's so lovely to have girlfriends like that because girls can really just, when we prop each other up and we support each other, girl, we can rule the world. Hell yeah. So it just is fun and beautiful to

look around and feel like, I've got a great group of girls around me. And that is really special. It's amazing. Yeah. And I think especially to be in the moment we're in in our lives where we've gone through the early career stuff, Brittany and I were talking about this in a way. Like, you meet some of your favorite people and then everyone gets scattered all over the world working like, you know, marbles. And you go through growth. You probably evolve out of some friendships that aren't the best for you. And then you, like, come back to your core humans and you go, oh, my God, I feel like I've, have I nailed it?

Yeah. Am I nailing it? Totally. That's the best part. You're like, I've got people to share this with. This is awesome. The thing I normally ask people, and I'm excited to hear your answer, especially because you have a 12-year-old, is, you know, everybody tunes in, they listen, they've watched the show,

they've watched all your films, they know you and your work. I'm always really curious if as an adult at this point in your career this point in your personal journey if we could like be in a sci-fi show and we could walk onto the playground

and see our eight-year-old selves or our nine-year-old selves like if you got to hang out with that little girl would you would you see yourself in her does the sort of through line of the woman you've become

make sense across the journey or do you think she'd be like Sorry, what is your life? Like, you're doing what for a living? If you showed her the hunting wise, she'd be like, what? Well, I think we could get maybe like arrested for that. Yeah, totally. You can't show an eight-year-old.

No. I think there are pieces to it that track, but I also think if I look at that little eight-year-old girl, I was so shy and so insecure. but still very goofy and positive. So there was like this combination where I go, yeah, I mean, I feel like everyone has two paths that they can take in life or many, but too specific, like one that kind of goes down, a downward spiral and one that just conquers everything. And so I can see both of those things in the little eight-year-old, but I definitely could have seen it go a different way had I listened to all the little gremlins. that were in my head. But luckily along the way, there were mentors and people that just kept showing me that silver lining. Wow. What are your gremlins? You know, I really don't like to

voice them out loud because I don't live to give them the power. I like that. I've worked a lot on quieting them and I work a lot with my son on that right now on anything that's bothering him to bring his truthful voice out, his gut voice versus the gremlins that are telling him things. And usually those gremlins are also other kids being mean or whatever it is. And then you start to believe those things as truths. So we speak a lot about that and just not giving it power. So I don't ever like to voice them out loud. I know they're mine. I mean, I will to my therapist. But that's my biggest work in progress is just being more in my own power and my own shoes and listening to my gut, which was not always easy and is still a work in progress.

Oh, it's such a hard journey. Yeah. And I especially think that the era we came up in. Yeah. The way women were treated in the media, the way, I mean, it was just so vicious. Yeah. And it was designed to make us crazy and to take, I love the way you say it. Like, don't give them power.

It's like I've decided to sort of name mine. I'm like, there's a little self-doubt monster. and there's like all these little monsters and every week in therapy I'm like all the monsters get to come to the tea party and like my higher self is going to entertain them and then put them back in their place but it's it's so interesting the way you phrase it

first of all to really learn to feed your goodness and your power instead of the other side of the seesaw we all have and and that you can see like oh it could have split here oh this could have changed that you know for some reason you saying that about your young self made me think yeah i have all my own versions of that but the way i get to watch my partner live and the person that she is like you know she is very clear about how

access to sport that was the thing that pulled her down the good path yeah when everything around her was dangerous and scary and I don't know I think about particularly for all of us what sport and what the arts do for people but especially for women yeah like it's huge it changes everything for us yeah when did you start to get into that as a kid because I know you know you moved from Sweden to Canada how that's obviously a crazy culture shock you know it's a crazy shit you know it's a crazy shift. Do you know what's interesting is that I would say that Sweden and Canada have a lot of similarities, you know, because kindness. Kindness, yeah. There's a little more logic. And politically in the past, it hasn't been so torn, you know. And so it was a pretty logical place

to grow up. Like, you put money into taxes and they go to health care and you get free health care and, like, you get free schooling. And, like, university costs, it cost me $4,000 a year to go to university. You mean you get a return on your investment? Exactly. And same with Sweden. Like, it's free university and everything. Like, it works. And so that wasn't a huge, there wasn't really a huge culture shock. Again, I was two years old, so I wouldn't have noticed a difference. Yeah, that's true. You're so small. But looking at it and going, and my dad moved back to Sweden when I was six. So I spent a lot of time going back and forth and comparing the two, you know, unconsciously, just comparing them. But it felt like a,

like there was a similarity. I think it would have been very different going from America to Sweden. Yeah. There is more of a culture shock there. But I loved growing up in Canada, and that was, you know, it was hard because my dad went back to Sweden when I was six. And I was such a daddy's girl. But he had to do it because we just didn't have finances. And he got a better job offer in Sweden.

And my mom wanted to stay in Canada. She preferred it there. So it was an amicable split. thank God, but I would be, I would get on a plane at six years old by myself and like do the chaperone thing and go see my dad in the summer and spend the summers there. So it was, again, silver linings to everything where you're like, I got this beautiful sort of duality of culture growing up where I spent three to four months in Sweden, March breaks and Christmas and stuff. And then also the influence of Canada and growing up there. And I think you had a question,

but I don't remember what it was. I don't really either, but I love it. It's like, I think sometimes when people ask me about perspective, you know, when you talk about logic, the sort of inherent desire to take care of your neighbors and to know that they're valuable, I really think that kind of duality and childhood can give that to you. It's like being shown rather than being told. Yeah, always. And I think a lot about it because, you know, I grew up here. My dad came from Canada in the 70s to go to art school. My mom moved out here from New York. I grew up here in the middle of L.A., but it was like very normal, cute, normal little neighborhood. So crazy to say about L.A. Cute normal little neighborhood. Like a normal little neighborhood.

Like nobody had a big fancy house. Nobody was like doing any of what you see on like selling sunset or over now. And my childhood was summers up in a 5,000 person cattle ranch town in Central California. Oh, wow. And so, like, we would catch frogs on Friday nights in the creek. Like, that's what there was to do. Totally. And the back and forth of it, I think really now reflecting back, if I hung out with my eight-year-old self, I'd realize the reason I love people and I love the world so much is because I get so excited to dip into anyone's place, space, culture, city, and figure out what they like to do on a Friday night. Yeah. And that's huge. And I think that is, I think being a global citizen is really, really important. And I think being

curious about other people and being open to discussion about, you know, advancing that a little further, not just what they do on Friday night, but like, what's your life like? And what are your beliefs and why? And what do you care about? Yeah. Who makes you feel seen? Not just in your own little circle, because we all have the same opinions. But when you reach outside and you kind of see the world for what it is, there's so much beauty to be found in it. Yeah. We'll be back. in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors. It's interesting, too, for us to be sitting here in this moment because we have been activists and advocates for such a long time. We do live in a time where things have shifted

away from the logic you speak of. Like, when you're talking about the logic of Canada, and I was like, you mean, you don't have alternative facts. It's like, an alternative fact is a lie. Exactly. It's not a fact. There is a lie. Like, we can have differences of opinion, but like, for example, I'm like, racism is not a difference of opinion. No. Like, that don't know. We're not going to do that. We're not going to excuse cruelty and call it thought. No. You know? And we do seem to be in this place. I mean, we don't seem, we see it, where we are going down this really dark path.

Yeah. And this is going to seem like a weird. moment to segue to your wonderful show, but stay with me here. I see so many people being scared to be seen. So many people understand that their identity is threatened now, that their ability to have rights is threatened now. I, you know, I've been putting this movie together and like literally everywhere, people are like, oh, no, no, no, we can't touch queer content right now. And then along comes the hunting wise. It's the gayest show on TV. Well, they sure did. And I just am like, not only is it an important thing to have out in the zeitgeist,

but right now that your show is the biggest show on streaming right now. Yeah. Like, how do you wrap your head around that, not just as an actor, but also as a global citizen, as someone who knows how much representation matters? Like, are you, do you just feel like you have whiplash all the time? A little bit. Yeah, great, yeah. But like a fun whiplash.

A great, great, great. a really happy one. And like you said, the representation is one. We're not, we're not, the thing is that we're not presenting as anything. It's just,

it's, it's not like coming out and going, this is the L word or this is, you know what I mean? Right. But it is an exploration of what it is to be human. I'm not going to get, this is like,

it's not a prestige show. And like Rebecca says herself, it's an anti-pristice show. It's popcorn. It's fun. It's entertainment. But it's also just, real inherent human curiosity and people being fluid.

And I'm not going to sit here and say I'm representing the LGBTQ community. But also, I'm so glad that it represents many aspects of it. In the community. But I think that's also why it's being so widely received is because no one's putting it in your face going, it's about a bunch of gay women who are. And then some people might just go, I'm not going to watch something that's gay content. But because it's presenting as housewives of Texas who are getting it on with each other and like exploring their sexuality. And I've said it before, like, I think most people are quite fluid.

And society has just put certain boundaries on what a marriage looks like or what a relationship looks like or what humans should look like. and what your sexuality should and shouldn't look like. So I just feel like this just creates a bit of freedom, and it's with both worlds, conservative and liberal. Yes. And it's mixing the worlds together, and we're loving both of them. And so it's this weird combination, this beautiful, magical combination that's just hit home for many people.

Yeah. I think that's part of the profundity of it. Like, don't get me wrong, we all love a prestige show. I would actually argue that this also is. But I do think there's a there's been a strangeness that maybe we haven't necessarily looked at where, yeah, if we're going to do the L word, which I love. Yeah, me too. They're going to do it in L.A. And so then suddenly it's, oh, that's a gay place.

Like I just sent a video yesterday, a waitress in Ohio, like, you know, went to the table to do the thing. and the older woman having dinner with her daughter said, what white wine do you have? And she suggested one. And she said, oh, no, that's from California. I don't support that state. There's too many gay people there. I'll take the white wine from New Zealand.

Oh, my God. And the waitress said, you know, there's... Okay. I'm pretty sure there's gay people in New Zealand. And the woman just looked at her and she said, would you like another server? Because, ma'am, I'm a lesbian. And the woman, she said, was so flustered.

And she was like, I'll have someone else bring you your wine, so you don't have to talk to a gay person. And she did. She gave the table away. And her video made me so sad because I was like, who are we becoming? I don't know. But I love what you're doing on the show because you're reminding people like, people are people everywhere. Honestly, guys. There's gay people everywhere.

I'm so sorry. Who the fuck cares? I know. what who somebody falls in love with what they do in the fucking bedroom who cares yeah i don't i don't want to know what that woman does in the bedroom by the way i don't care but i don't give a fucking do whatever you want if you want to get pegged then get peg go for it girlfriend like i just why are we so there are so many bigger problems yeah and who somebody loves it literally doesn't matter it blows my mind yeah love is love is love and the best thing

God, there's love. Yeah. Thank God for it. It saves the world. And why are people so mad at it? You know, it just, it makes me really upset things like that. Well, the thing is, if you can create the illusion of impropriety for something good, or by the way, frankly, something irrelevant, then you can create an identity war. It's like a religious war.

Logic can't win it. And then people aren't paying attention to the fact that. we don't have health care, and that our kids can't read. Smoking mirrors, baby. Yeah, it's smoking mirrors. So it's fun to watch how inherently honest a show like yours is and that that that honesty actually makes it quite subversive. Yeah.

I'm like, this is like amazing. Rebecca Cutter has done an incredible job on this. Incredible. So when you, you mentioned getting pegged. Uh-huh. I know from our conversations that you got to that scene and went, oh my God. Can you tell the people about first how the show came your way? Sure.

And how you knew you had to do it. And how interestingly your husband was kind of the show's biggest champion? Yeah. He's my biggest champion, by the way. So the whole series landed in my inbox all eight episodes. Wow. And that's, as you know, very unusual. Usually you get a pilot and you kind of have to make up the rest

and hope that this character goes somewhere cool. So I got all eight episodes, I started reading. And I was in a mood because I just lost a job to a very zeitgeisty show. And literally that day. And I was like, and then this came along and I was like, what is this? Red State, NRA, anti-abortion. like, is this who, is this who I'm going to play?

Is this it? And that was just like first episode. And I didn't know what this, what was it, what was coming. Yeah. And so I read on and then I handed it to my husband. I was like, can you just read this and like, let me know your thoughts? Because I'm really starting to fall in love with this character. And I think there's more there, like there's an underlying theme in this that is not on

the page. And I feel like there's so much to do with this. And there's so much to play with. and he started reading it. He goes, are you kidding me? Why wouldn't you do this? I mean, you were tailor-made for this. This role is tailor-made for you.

And I was like, wait a second. That's a loaded comment. You're like, hold on. Am I flattered or confused? I'm not sure if that's good or not. But he just meant, you know, there's, there are, you'll get to showcase so much of your talent in this is what he was saying. He is, I mean, I've taken on projects before and he's like,

you're better than this. You should not be doing this. you're so much better than this. And that's such a beautiful thing to say, but at the same time I'm going, no, I'm not. There's one of my little gremlin's coming out. I'm like, no, no, no, this is fine.

This is perfect for little me. This is, I mean, I've got a job. This is amazing. So he's always been pushing me to put my goal a little bit higher for myself. Yeah. And so this came along and then I read it. I was reading it and I was loving every moment of it.

It's such a page turner. And then I got to the, episode where Callie is with her husband in the bedroom and spoiler alert, but she pegs him. And now, I've had many discussions with friends of mine who are straight men, gay men, you know, women all across the board who pegging has come up quite a bit over the past few years, people just being honest. It's not like it hasn't existed. It's just people starting to talk about. People just didn't talk about it. didn't talk about it. And so when this came up, I was like, oh, my God, this is amazing. I've never seen this on television before. And I bet you so many people will relate to this. We'll

want to try it. We'll want to, you know, get curious about it. And so that was sort of the nail in the coffin for me, was that scene where, you know, I know I wasn't doing the scene, but I just went, this is so brave. It's brave. Very, very brave to just be out there with that. Yes, by the way, I have, I've been waiting for this to tell you this story. Yeah. So back in the day, early days of One Tree Hill, my two roommates from college had moved after college to New York, and I was basically the third roommate. And I'd fly up there on the weekends to see Allie and Brooke.

And one of our best friends, Paul, was Allie's coworker at BNCPR, if you remember, like, back in the day. I don't know BNCFRAG. BNCFRALEE, Public Relations. Oh, wow. And sometimes I would fly to New York for like an audition. Yeah. And where was I going to go?

It'd be like a Thursday. I'd be flying up in the morning, flying back on, you know, Eastern Seaboard, you know. And I would go to her office. And I got to be really, really good friends with Allie's co-worker Paul. And at the time, this was probably like 2006. They got hired to do PR for a very high-end sex toy company. And nobody was talking about sex toys. And I remember Paul being like, yeah, got to come look at the cabinet.

And he opened it. And we all were like blushing. We were like, what the fuck is all of that? Like what? There's a lot of toys out there. And then like you're curious. And then you're also like, I have to go because I can't like be seen in public having this conversation, which is so silly, the way we've all been shamed about sex, which people

have been having since the dawn of time. Sure. And I will never forget Paul telling me. I was like, what's the weirdest thing that this company sells the most of? Because they got all the data, right? and he said the thing they sell the most of that they are the most surprised by

is strap-ons for women in red states to peg their husbands and by the way I go I go where do they go the most and he said ironically Ohio Wow Paul happens to be Paul Downs the creator of hacks

Get out Yes Oh my God And this observance of this company When him and Lucia first started working together writing together before they were married, they did essentially like a funnier die video called Dildo Sport. And they came up with the idea because of this sex toy company he represented

for a time. So everyone should watch that. It's on YouTube. It's the funniest thing you've ever seen. 100%. But like when you say nobody talks about it. Nobody talks about it. Because like you just said, we've all been shamed. Yeah. Sex is normal. And kinks are normal. As long as it's too consenting adults, go for it, baby, whatever you like. Have a nice time. I also, I'm very, I am very curious about people's things. Like, I find it fascinating, and that's why the conversations have come up.

And I'm like, what do you guys do? Is there anything fun? Like, or do you have a fantasy or, like, what's something that you are nervous to ask your wife to do or your husband or like, or your boyfriend or girlfriend? What's something you've recently learned about your sexuality that surprised you, you know? Yeah, who knows? I thought you were asking me. Oh, no, no. I mean, it's such a nice question, but you can answer it if you want to.

Oh, nothing's surprising with my sexual. I know myself very well. I love it. Okay, that is a question also, if it's not too personal. But to your point, I think people at home might not have people to have these conversations with. Yeah, totally. Your husband is your biggest champion. Yeah.

He was like, do this show. Go have this conversation about how this woman who lives in a very, you know, like you said, anti-abortion place has had one, which we know is so common because you see these guys passing these laws about our bodies, and then we hear about the mistresses whose abortions they've paid for. Totally. Crazy. I'm also curious how, like, because the show is so sexy.

Yeah. And it requires a lot of sex. How do you navigate that in your relationship? And how, I mean, your husband is the nicest man. he's also so evolved. So I asked this question not specifically for him or for maybe other husbands of queer women. Like, how does he navigate you in your fullness?

Like, how does he not get nervous about it or jealous about it? Honestly, Sophia. How did you have the conversation? I have a unicorn, I feel like. I really do. I think it stems from his father, who is a wonderful human as well. And he said to Jack once, Jack is my husband's name, he said to him once, you know, I met your mother, this wild free spirit that I knew I could never put in a cage. And nor did I ever want to.

So I never, ever tried to change her mother because she is who she is and that's who I fell in love with. And I think Jack has taken that on and just gone, you are this whatever X, Y, and Z woman that he fell in love, whatever he fell in love with with me. me, he would never try to change that because that's what he fell in love with. I am who he fell in love with. And so whatever I come with is what he wants. And so he's also in the business. So he understands what it really is like to do an intimate scene, as you know as well. It's not super sexy. It's not super romantic. It's very technical. But it's beautiful to watch once it's all said and done it. Once it's edited together and you don't hear the person going, why need you to turn your heads two inches to the left because you're in this person's light.

Like once that's all gone, it looks great. It looks beautiful. Put some music to it, you know. So he knows all of that stuff as well. And then on top of that, I mean, it's, like I said, it's mostly me and other women in this show. And that's, a lot of guys will say that that's one of their fantasies is to see their girlfriend or a wife or whatever with another woman. And so, him there's a little bit of like a whoa this is exciting inside it's sexy and you know brittany and jamie ray they're just beautiful women yeah but he's on set he meets everyone we we make it like a i know that sounds weird but like a family affair it's just there's the security there and there's no we don't have jealousy in our relationship it just we've got no room for it we're just not not those

people yeah there's no reason to be you know we've made this commitment we know what our commitment is to each other and what our rules and our boundaries are and we adhere to them. You know, I'm old enough now. I'm 47 years old. I know what I want and I need and we're very vocal about it. When I was 20 in my 20s, I could never have had these kinds of discussions. I could never have explored the kind of marriage that we have. Like, I just didn't have the vocabulary. I didn't have the tools. I didn't have the confidence. I didn't know who I was. Now I know who I am and entering into this relationship with Jack, I was very open about who I am, what I want in a relationship if it's going to work, that I'm still a work in progress that I probably am going to change. Hopefully we'll change together.

But I said, you know, in our vows when we get married, I'm not going to say forever because that would be a lie because I don't know if that's true or not. But every day I'm going to try my best to be the best wife and best partner. but that's all I can promise. So, you know, we have a lot of really great discussions. He's a really great person to talk to, and that's why it works. Communication is key. Yeah. We'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors.

What an amazing thing to find that, not only your relationship with yourself, but a relationship with yourself that I think when you get forged in both, evolution and fire, frankly, when you know yourself in a way that you can then have such a healthy relationship with another person and when you get it as essentially a second chance. A hundred percent. Like when you did it younger and with less knowledge and it wasn't right for you. Yeah. And you figured out how to both own that and extricate yourself from that and not let it harden you

to the possibility of something good. in the future. Absolutely. Yeah, and it's that the two paths where you could go down the really dark path or you could go silver lining. Where is it? I'm going to look for that. But it's also that I don't know if you've noticed this, but as you get older, all the sayings that we heard told to us as young is that we could never wrap our heads around. And that one real big truth is you have to love yourself first in order to love somebody else. And it's as simple as that. And that's the hardest thing to do. Yeah. But when you start to love yourself, then you start to be able to have a really great relationship with somebody else. Yeah. And that's been really true. And that's the

exploration that I'm having with my husband right now. That's beautiful. And it, watching you guys together, like in real, in the real world, people are like, wait, what? Not just disagree? I'm like, no, no, he's not on the show. He's not like secretly a little guy on the show. Seeing how lovely and like generative your relationship is together. Oh, that's a nice word. Yeah. I feel like I can see it in your freedom on camera. You know? Yeah. And it's interesting. And it's so cool. Like when you've, when you've watched all your friends do all their things and you see them and you're just like, oh, you're in a whole other, like you've, I don't know what you're doing, but it's working. Like, you know, when you go like, you leveled it.

up, like in your spirit. Yeah. And I love seeing it for you. And frankly, I love seeing you and Brittany have the experience together because, you know, 20 years ago, we were a lot of people's gay awakenings in John Tucker Must Die. And even that was so through the male gaze, like my character, teaching her character how to kiss. And then, you know, the camera turning and realizing a guy was watching.

Yeah. I remember doing press and being like, you know, we were so lucky we got to do that together. And hearing the way we answered the question and being like, oh, it wasn't about that it was weird for us to kiss each other. It was like, it didn't feel great to be on camera for like a guy's entertainment in that way. And to see you guys just being together. I'm like, we've really made some progress. I'm so proud. Same.

My girls. That was the beauty about this show too, is the beauty of this show now that we're continuing is that we, everything has been. through the female gaze. Yes. And that's really cool. I've never experienced that before. Because like you just said, most of it has been through the male gays. And that's okay, do.

But this is our turn. And this is every woman, every director was a woman. And the woman who directed mine and Brittany's first intimate scene is Melanie Mayeron. And she is herself a lesbian. And so she's like, I want this to be beautiful in what we think is sexy, what we deem is sexy. and also have that nuance of the tenderness and the love and the excitement behind it. Yes. You know, so that was really beautiful to just have that discussion.

And Rebecca Cutter as well, who, you know, has been with women and men and just is very open to making it just beautiful in the way that we feel is beautiful. Well, and something that has been really interesting as, you know, a queer person is watching, rather than like, you know, you're dating, you're experimenting, you're doing whatever you're doing, being in this relationship as long as I've been in it now with Ash, watching some of my straight friends. Yeah. And even some friends that realize maybe they're more curious than they thought, observe our intimacy.

And I don't mean, like, we don't have, you know, someone in the bedroom. But a friend of mine said to me the other day, we'd had friends over and, like, you know, You're buzzing around, you're hosting. We, like, we went around the kitchen island and we, like, we're talking to each other in the corner and we separated and, like, went and did the thing. My friend said, I watched you to have this moment, have this sweetness together. The way you, like, wrapped your arms around each other and kissed each other. And then you looked at each other.

You said something. I don't know what it was. You went. She said, my husband has never kissed me like that unless he's trying to fuck me. And I was like, oh. Yeah. Like the difference in intimacy. Sure.

Is I'm realizing, is revelatory even for people who aren't having the intimacy I'm having. Yeah. And watching you guys and the way you talk about even how you create it, do you think there's something that's so amazing for audiences, not only because, you know, you are playing a very openly bisexual woman, but because someone who they might feel they identify with someone like Britney's character who they, until they learn a little more, they thought was like always straight, is exploring her fluidity.

Like, I'm amazed that there's so many women being like, oh, this isn't just a show, as you said at the top for lesbians. Like, this is a show for everyone. And like, am I, am I maybe a little by? Like, are there things I haven't explored in myself? Absolutely. And I think, you know, adultery aside. Because, you know, it's women behaving badly for, like, in many terrible ways.

To be clear, for anyone who hasn't seen it, your character on the show is in an acknowledged open relationship. Yeah. But yes. We don't call it open because that's for liberals, as she says. That's for the liberals on the West Coast. But we have an agreement on how we do our marriage. And this is accepted. But I do go outside those boundaries and sleep with the young man.

That, which is. which is a no-no. Many no-noes in that. It's like the fact that you're so likable on this show. I mean, you are in life. That that isn't like a five-alarm fire. I'm like, wow, okay, this is really something. I think people hated that part the most, which I get, which is, it's two-tier,

too young and best friend's son. It's just not correct. But what I do also find funny is that everyone hates and what a wonderful actor he is, to be clear, lovely person, but he's playing an unlikable man. Oh, no, Dermit's wonderful. I was going to say the gentleman who plays Brittany's husband. Oh, I know. Everybody just hates his character.

Everyone hates Evan's character so much. They're like, girl, cheat on your husband. He sucks. Well, to go back to what you were just beginning in this was, you know, women explore, like exploring seeing Britney's character. And I think it all comes down to being seen. Yeah. Whether you're in a queer relationship or a straight relationship or whatever it is.

Are you seen? What you just said about you and Ash, I have with Jack. I know. We can have those intimate moments. And that, and I said that. And I said that to him in the beginning. I said, listen, I always thought intimacy, I did as a woman, thought intimacy was physical and sexual.

And a precursor to sexuality. 100%. I was like intimacy, that's what that is. That was the equation for me. And then I started working on myself. And then I met Jack and I said, listen, I don't think I've ever been truly intimate with somebody. I've never shared a lot.

I've held everyone at an arm's length to protect myself. And so I'm going to try this new thing of like letting some guards down and let you in and be intimate with you. Yes. And that was really hard for me, but that's why our relationship is the way it is. So I think that in this show, intimacy is what's missing in her relationship with her husband.

And she finds it with Margot sees her, or at least is feigning to her, or whatever, however this is unfolding. But to be seen, and I think that Margo is being seen in a different light by Sophie as well, because all of her gals that she hangs out with its, very, on a very different surface than it is with Brittany who comes in and is very emotionally intelligent and sees different facets of Margo. And I think the intimacy part is what most people

are looking for. And whether it's with a woman or a man or whatever, I wish everyone could go out there and find an intimate partner. Yes. Well, after the four of us were out on Saturday, Ash even was like, oh, she was like, I know she's our people, but like he's also, he's my people. Yeah. And I was like, you guys, he had. He had. the same thing about as she was like i really like that girl ash she seems so cool it's like can we hang out i was like well they live on the east coast but but yes anytime we're here yeah yeah it's so cool and how how does it feel like yes the representation's gorgeous and yes what a freeing experience to be directed by women and to have real intimacy be part of sexuality instead of sexuality

be the exclusive representation of intimacy. Yeah. Like, also, even just because you girls are my friends, like my DMs are so filled with the whole gay Internet who's so happy about this show. How is the experience for you? And I am curious too, because we are in a moment where queer women who date women and then date men

or queer women who wind up marrying men are in a struggle, about what their identity looks like, what bifobia looks like, what the judgment of lesbians looks like, like, it's a, it's a mish-mashy mess. How do you see it in terms of what you're representing? What's the feedback? How does it feel? Are you having the best time? I'm having the best time. I don't, I also don't want to claim that property of like, I'm represent, you know what I mean? I don't. You're just playing this one woman. I'm playing this moment and I'm so happy that people are again feeling seen maybe or feeling that there's representation on TV for them. That's all beautiful. And again, it's back to that thing of like, I, to have to label

yourself is so crazy. It's just all the label actually is it, it's condensed to just human. Or just humans. All of what you just said, like lesbian and then straight and then or whatever. whatever your preference is, that's just the human experience. So the fact that we have to label it all the time as a shame because, again, that comes with different levels of shame and like, you know, but, and I'll say it again, I think most people are born fluid. And I think that society just kind of says you have to be one or the other. You have to fit in a pocket and you don't.

Yeah. And I think that's what's so fun about this show. Yeah. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. By the way, what I certainly learned, and I will never forget this sort of aha moment for me of, you know, going through my own dissolution and realizing like I built this picture perfect life and what I learned in the first year of it was that it really wasn't. and how do you reconcile that and what do you do? And I will never forget having this conversation because I'd been away from everyone.

And when you're isolated, it can be harder to deal with hardship. And I remember FaceTiming one of my best friends. I was at the point where I was like, I can only tell two people a day that I have to take apart the whole house I've built essentially, like brick by brick. And it's too hard to have this conversation.

And I called one of my best friends Rory, who has a phenomenal podcast about the horrors of dating and is coming out with a book, like the perfect person to talk about. Like, I got, I'm waking up to the fact that this is so f*** and what am I going to do?

And Rory was like, I'm so proud of you and we've been waiting and this, that, and I was just the most supportive friend. And she said, like, but what happened? Like, what's gone on? You know, because I called her from the middle of the night in London. And I was like, I just like,

we're performers, right? We know how to keep things under wraps. We know how to smile and do our jobs, no matter what's going on at home. And I was like, I, like, in a room, like, full of people there was, like, press. And I saw a couple of my girlfriends. And, you know, I've been in Europe by myself for three months. And I saw some of my friends. And I was just, like, in the corner with all these great, like, power lesbian,

sobbing about how bad things are. And she was like, well, yeah, because women, obviously, you need that. She goes, I just have to say, I know you're, like, role in life is that. you're here to dismantle the patriarchy. You want to create real equity. She was like, I just don't think you like men. And I was like, no, but I do. Like Kenny

and Cameron and all our best friends. She goes, no, no, no, no. I think like intimately, I think you think you're into men and women. And I actually think you really don't like men. And I was like... Yeah, that's going to be hard to have a relationship with a man. I was like, interesting. Is there actually

a reverse version of this where society has made me think I'm like, somewhere fluid in the middle, and I'm actually really not. Yeah. Like, is that my moment? Is that a, huh? I've always been open, but like, have I been as open as I deserve for myself? Right.

And so to your point, regardless of what direction those labels go in, I think they can reduce the permission you give yourself to find yourself in the world. Absolutely. And look how hard it is to be anything. other than straight right now and adhere to the rules, the rules, whatever those are. That part. But yeah, it's much easier to fall into, let me get the house and the white pick of fence and the dog and the babies and the marriage and you're like, boring.

Like, where is, who's talking about the intimacy? Who's talking about being seen? He's talking about communication. What does it look like inside behind closed doors? Yes. But is that relationship? What should it be? It's been really interesting because I have a girlfriend who came, you know, came from like a very traditional religious, turned out to be like culty, terrifying thing, but had that as well.

Yeah. And the unpacking we've done recently together of what it looks like to not only have to go through the dismantling of the image of your life, but to reckon with the fact that there is a large part of society that would rather you be. in a traditional marriage that is toxic, violent, full of theft, full of emotional, physical, any kind of abuse, then be holistically happy with someone the same gender as you. You're like, whoa, we've gotten so far off. It's so crazy. Like, we're off the track here of goodness for people. And so I just love that this show you're making that is so, you called it podcast.

popcorn, and I'm like, no, it's art because it's, what I experience as a viewer of your show is the camp of it. It's self-awareness. It is, it is playing into total subversiveness and total stereotype at the same time, which is so hard to balance. And you're shocking people all the time and reminding people that everyone's kind of going through a version of the same thing in this heightened television environment. And I'm just like, this is what they're show we need right now because people are out here coming for gay marriage and like things are crazy and we needed this. I'm so glad. Listen, I give kudos to Rebecca Cutter for creating this. This is really, we're along for the ride and I'm so happy to be on this ride and I love it.

I think it's brilliant and I love towing that line of like, I say popcorn because I think it's entertaining, you know, and it is. It's entertainment. It's supposed to be entertaining. But yes, it has definitely a lot of different elements to it that are causing waves and rightfully so. I also think entertainment sometimes gets knocked as though it's frivolous when it's actually the most powerful medicine. Like the thing that changed American opinion on civil rights for gay people was Will and Grace. Oh, wow. People were like, oh, we love those guys.

Yeah. Oh, why do we judge people? Right. Well, the gay people I know are nice, and wait a second, and it really helped shift public opinion. And I think it's incredibly important to entertain people and remind them to be curious about their neighbors instead of judgmental. Yeah. You know? Absolutely.

It's more valuable now than ever, and I think it's been so valuable for so long. And I think it's why when people ask why so many entertainers are pro social justice or universal health care or policies that take care of people, it's because we get to know people everywhere and every kind of... From all different walks of life. Yeah, absolutely. Exactly. And even for you, like your mental health advocacy is something I've always admired the way you've shared, you know, about your experience, learning to caretake for, a parent struggling with depression, like, parentified child stuff, mental health. Like, these are heavy topics, but when brought to light, they can be lifted up. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think

you're right. I think bringing it through entertainment is a great way to do it. So it doesn't be, I always think about like PSAs and how heavy PSAs can be sometimes. Like, we should find a way to do PSAs that are through comedy so that it really resonates with people. But, but I agree. I just think that you know mental health stuff was always like nobody talked about it when I was kid that was it just I didn't even know I didn't even know that my mom was depressed I didn't even know that word so I just was trying to figure out what was happening all the time right with without talking to anybody of course you know and it was just me and my mom because my dad wasn't so he didn't even tell him like what would I say what were the words that I was going to use right so having that

now and having a kid who's 12 years old and how they have a class in school every single week called life skills and it's all about mental health and communication and you know it's fantastic i have a boy who talks about his feelings and that's incredible and he thinks that that's the right thing to do you know and that's and i know that's not across the board not everywhere but i think we're on our way towards that and the more that we talk about it and the more we put it out there well just to say hey this happens to everybody Absolutely. It's so normal. Yeah. Unfortunately. But it is. Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting. Do you think, do you think that was part of what led you before your acting career to study psychology? Which, by the way, is such good fuel for an acting career. I think for sure that's what led me to psychology. I think, again, not having access to a therapist or even understanding that that's something that I should be reaching out to at 17 years old. psychology was just so fascinating to me.

It was so interesting because all of a sudden I was getting answers to my own questions. Yes. They're going, oh, my God, this could be so helpful for everyone else. And my younger brother had stuff going on and nobody understood it. And schools weren't helping out, OCD, but really severe. And so it was really difficult in school for him. And there was nobody there who understood it or could help him. And so I thought, you know what?

I met with the health minister of Canada. I was like, I'd like to change the school systems. please. I'd like to make sure that we have counselors in every classroom, especially in high schools. They can nip things in the butt and be there to support people. It goes, all right, once you've got your education, you come on in and we'll sit down and make a plan. Whoa. Still waiting for it. I mean, you know, acting took over. But I do think that that's what led me into it was just all the different, and also friends and people in my own high school and two people who took their own lives, two kids that I knew in high school who took their own lives.

of mental health issues and nobody was talking about it. So it's just stuff like that that I think led me to want to get into it. And yes, great for acting because you're going into somebody's psyche and going, all right, what's their background and what could have happened in their life? Yeah. Margo Banks. Where does Margo come from? Oh boy. That's a long story. Yeah. What are for folks at home, what are the things you want them to know about, not just the show, obviously. Like, if you're living under a rock and you haven't watched it, catch up. But in terms of things that are important to you, like, what organizations do you want to tell every listener of this show about right now? Well, you know, I, again, mental health is a huge

one for me. I want everyone to feel like it's okay to talk about everything that's going on in their lives. And kids specifically are a huge one because I know certainly growing up, I didn't always have the best mentors. You know, my dad is wonderful, but he was far away. My mom is wonderful, but she was struggling. She was struggling in her own stuff. Yeah. So to give children, especially a voice is really huge. So it's a children's mental health organization. And it used to be called on our sleeves, but it's Angel Carter who started it. And she's Aaron Carter, of the Carter family, Nick Carter, and Aaron Carter went through some severe mental health issues that ended up in his death.

And so she started this organization a few years ago, and I absolutely love it. And they have this website that has all these tools for schools, caretakers, anybody, parents, on how to begin conversations. They have complete curriculums for schools to incorporate to help. children out. So I think that one's really important, starting from, you know, the ground up when they're young and susceptible and receptive as well. I think that's really important. So that's one of my biggest ones. But there's a lot of different, I mean, Environmental Media Association, I've been on the board for that for a very long time. And opportunity international, which is a microfinancing

organization that focused mainly on women. And they give them financial aid, but also courses on how to start a business and how do you sustain that. So it's not just like, here's some money, good luck. It's like here's the seed of what you need and here's how to build what will sustain you. Yeah. Yeah. So those, just focusing on that kind of stuff. Yeah. Keeping the world turning. Well, yeah, I think speaking truth to power is so important. But if if we do that and then don't follow it with the opportunity to act, I think we can just make people feel even more scared. Absolutely.

And so the action is so important. And what I love about our jobs and being able to highlight a plethora of things we're passionate about is like not every listener is going to say, oh, that's my one issue to one thing. Totally. Everyone is inspired to do something. And so, you know, when people will say, as I know they said this to you and they've said it to me, is like, oh, you know, you should really pick a lane.

It's like, no, I get to be a megaphone. Yeah. So I can help everyone else pick a lane. I should be a menu, and then everybody else gets to, like, pick what they're inspired about. It's just pointing people in the right direction, because I know I'm the same way. The things that I'm passionate about is going, well, where do I start? How do I start? I don't want to just, like, also give money, but I also want to see, like, on the ground grassroots what could be done and what are the actions I can take.

Well, and sustained engagement is what really creates change. Like, yeah, money is valuable, but I know there's something. college kids who listen to this podcast that are like, hi, I'm broke. And I'm like, yeah, we've been there. Yeah. Given your time is just as valuable. And to sustain engagement is what changes community. So it feels exciting. Tell people, if you're broke, tell people who have money to invest in people who don't to get involved in volunteer. Like, there's so many different ways. But it's like nowadays, I feel like it's so much easier because you can go online and there are websites. I mean, total game changer. Yeah. We never had any of this.

Nope. Okay, before I let you go, so you can get to your next thing, when do we get season two? Next summer, baby. But like I want it now? I know. You're going to have to wait. Okay. All right.

Next summer, that's better. Because sometimes the streaming shows don't come out for like two and a half years. Yeah. So I can, I can, I can wait a year. They got smart and we're starting already now in November to shoot it. Oh, thank God. We just found out about season two. For Rebecca Cutter is under pressure just writing everything.

Usually you get like five months of a writer's room, but she's got a month and a half until we start. Oh, honey. Just for all the fans. I hope her writer's room is well caffeinated, well stocked. You mentioned it earlier as working on feeding the good essentially in you. Is there anything else that feels like a work in progress in your life? Or is that really the overarching gorgeous container?

Yeah. I think that's... It's, I am a work in progress. Yeah. We all are. I am working on myself every single day and using the pause method of before I say anything, what is the purpose and what do I want to put out there and what do I want to get back? And but I feel like I've come to a place in my life where I feel like here I am.

Oh, I finally see who I am. and I see it working on it, but I'm loving it. And so, yeah, I just think my dad is the one who always said, look for the silver lining. And that's been key in my life because there always is. There always, always is. And the biggest one for me was when my son's father and I split, my first husband and I split, my son was only four months old. And that was really, really tough. And the silver lining was that one of my best girlfriends moved in with me.

for a year and a half and help me raise my son. And we had the best time. And I wouldn't have had that had me and my husband worked out. We would have had a different journey. It would have been different and beautiful and great. But this was awesome. Yeah. So the silver linings are really something to look out for always. Yeah. But yeah, just working on, you know, authenticity and positivity. Love that. Well, you are a human light bulb. You are the most joyous to be around. Thank you for coming today. Thank you. And tell Rebecca to write faster.